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Game of Thrones (spoilers)

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Lottery

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Reply #825 on: May 21, 2019, 09:16:46 PM
To some he would be a bit of a demon god. He's a strange, bizarrely powerful agent from an old and ritualistic religion, previously worshipped by extinct inhuman beings. His existence/prominence could be an affront to many (including those who aye'd him, assuming they understood).
It would be both amusing and sad if the writers presented him as benevolent because they couldn't understand what makes him so sinister. I think Tyrion as Hand makes Bran play for the 'good side', otherwise I'm pretty rattled by the dude.
There's always reason to be concerned whenever time-travel/precognition/omniscience is added to stories. I generally like magic being enigmatic in stories but I would have appreciated a bit more info here.

See, I have trouble following that line of reasoning regarding Yara. Bran may have honoured Dany's promise but she did not reach out for the independence her people have desired for years- same deal with Dornish Prince. They both crumble. There's no reason for ambivalence. People are conveniently resolute and then not resolute; to hop from one plot point to the next.

And there simply is no excuse for everyone except Sansa giving into the ayes so quickly. Even if the council is stacked with Starks and friends.
The only way I can see this working is by going with the 'they're sick of conflict' reason but still, for everyone to be so speedily convinced by Tyrion is absurd. This is doubly absurd because now I'm rewatching and Tyrion's speech is seemingly directed towards the audience than the other lords who would no doubt be confused.
It's a breathtaking power grab because everyone seemingly becomes blundering fools (Edmure), submissive and lacking conviction (Yara) and lacking skepticism and/or critical thinking (everyone).
The more and more I think about the episode the sillier it gets. This sort of conclusion would have never so easily occurred earlier in the show or at all. The expedient approach to the writing has been my biggest frustration over the last 2 seasons.
I love the idea of Tyrion the prisoner, presented in front of the lords, managing to convince them and then having them pick their king. And Dinklage gives it his all. But it just doesn't work.

One thing I'm interested about is seeing how this arrangement will hold in the end. Will Bran's powers prevent his rule/the peace from being disturbed? Or will human nature prevail, and the wheel be made anew and will it continue to roll on. But I'm not sure they gave this much thought considering they have fucking Bronn on the council with all his titles.
Otherwise Bran as king is an unexpected but intriguing conclusion.

EDIT:

From GRRM.
Quote
As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel.   I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others.   There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced.   I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan.   And then there’s Meow Wolf…

This might be the first time I have truly felt a bit hopeless about the final books. I really want the guy to succeed, not for my own interest in reading the story but I want the man to see a satisfying end to his life work.


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #826 on: May 21, 2019, 11:38:54 PM
I think I made a decent argument for it, but that summit scene has definitely been degrading in my estimation. As you say, it's silly. The way it's staged, it's as if we're supposed to believe what we're seeing is a summary of how it actually played out. Just like the battle planning scenes.

The Season 8 style is more about pace and tone than details. At some point they must have made the determination that too much detail would get in the way of their momentum. The details are something we need to fill in, sometimes just to make sense of a scene. I don't mind doing that, but clearly it's radically different from phase 1 of the show, and it has the potential to create a bit of nonsense.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #827 on: May 24, 2019, 01:04:13 AM
"Hunger is the purest sin"


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #828 on: May 24, 2019, 06:30:12 PM
Some relevant data attached below.

This illuminates something for me. I have a strange affinity for GoT phase 2, especially these last couple seasons. (Season 7 might even be my favorite of all.) They have a particular thing, a special something that 1 through 4 just don't have. Allowing characters to bare their souls or express precisely what they're feeling in a moment without speaking a word:

I really loved this episode. It feels somewhat like a continuation of "The Dragon and the Wolf" — characters experiencing and discovering things for the first time and reuniting after ages apart, done through weighty scenes, executed brilliantly one after another, with the heaviest lifting often done wordlessly.

As Sansa enters the crypt, the wordless exchange between her and Tyrion is just perfect. One of the highlights.

[...]

Another completely wordless exchange between Sansa and Tyrion that conveys more than any conversation could. High-level character work.

I love the talky episodes, don't get me wrong, but if given the choice I might prefer silence and visual spectacle. D&D have weaknesses, but this is probably their greatest strength.
"Hunger is the purest sin"


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #829 on: June 07, 2019, 01:05:29 PM
I remember thinking this at the time, but now someone made a thing for it.
"Hunger is the purest sin"


wilberfan

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Reply #830 on: June 07, 2019, 06:48:08 PM
Boogie Nights kinda made that same point, too...
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #831 on: June 11, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
I'm on Chapter 26 of Book 1 (audiobook). It's good! Some assorted observations:

(Book spoilers)

GRRM's prose can be hit-or-miss. I'll be happy if I never hear the phrase "almost a man grown" ever again (but that seems unlikely). A lot of the characters end up sounding the same at first. That does make the exceptions stand out, though—Tyrion, King Robert, Viserys, etc.

At this point, book Jon has some muddled characterization, and I don't really find him appealing. He's mostly just an immature teenager. (I prefer show Jon, who broods more and jokes less.) He's not that different from Sansa. Speaking of which—the book's characterization of Sansa is very black-and-white so far. I can see why book readers hated her. The way she dealt with the Joffrey swordplay incident was plainly dishonorable and dishonest, whereas in the show she basically refused to participate, and you got a much better sense of her panic and feeling in over her head. Book Sansa has none of these subtleties so far; she's vacuous and selfish, and that's pretty much it.

I'm kind of blown away how faithful the first season is to the books. I can't think of a closer adaptation. The most shocking example is King Robert—that character and performance feels like it was lifted directly off the page.

So far, any significant book-to-show changes are outright improvements. The Ned/Catelyn relationship. All the dialogue in general. GRRM's dialogue barely works on the page; it would be a disaster on screen. D&D deserve a lot of credit for translating it into a style that fits TV but is as true to the spirit of the book as possible. Quite a feat.

I was hoping to get clarification on the Daenerys/Drogo relationship, but no such luck. Their first encounter is written as a sweet, flowery, even erotic scene. Drogo's gentleness and patience are described at length. The scene centers around consent and even pointedly brings the chapter to an end with Daenerys saying "yes." Okay, great. Next time we check in on the happy couple, he is raping her so hard every night that she cries herself to sleep, but even that is difficult because it hurts so much. Solution: she gradually learns to tolerate and somewhat enjoy the process. GRRM really skims over these events, so he doesn't have enough time to get too problematic, but he also doesn't give this stuff the weight it deserves. You could argue that this works, because packing so much into a sentence or two can amplify the shock value, but it also reeks of disinterest. This shortfall is only so glaring because this is Daenerys's POV chapter; it strains credulity that these events would not be central to her experience from her point of view. It seems clear that GRRM just didn't want to get into it.

I seem to have a lot of criticisms, but I'm really positive on the book. I'm eating up the details and the lore. It's all very tantalizing, and I'm sure it will continue to get richer.

The amount of foreshadowing is bonkers. I'm sure I'm looking for it, but it really is everywhere. Especially around the Starks.

I've been delighted to discover that Tyrion's relationship with Jon is a lot richer in the book. GRRM wants to be absolutely sure we understand why they are kindred spirits. Good stuff.

Ned's scene with Arya in her chambers was absolutely breathtaking. The most emotionally powerful, heartfelt scene of the book so far. To top it off, Ned actually delivers the aforementioned line: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." Oh boy did that get me.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #832 on: August 11, 2019, 04:49:20 PM
My journey through Book 1 continues...

I'll be happy if I never hear the phrase "almost a man grown" ever again (but that seems unlikely).

Oh it most certainly does not stop. Other things GRRM can't stop saying:

"Boiled leather." Boiled leather, boiled leather. Seems like 90% of armor in Westeros is boiled leather, and it always warrants a mention. I would actually like to see some leather being boiled at some point.

"Small wonder." GRRM has clearly taken a liking to this admittedly useful phrase at this point in the book.

(BOOK SPOILERS)

I'm trying to sort out the narrator's voice right now. It's not quite GRRM and not quite the POV character in question. The narrator has opinions and a point of view, evident by the way certain things are phrased. This mostly comes into play around the suffering of women. The narrator does acknowledge it, for sure, but the tone is usually one of tepid acceptance; that's just how it is in this world. I think GRRM is going for a neutrality that doesn't quite work. There are so many missed opportunities in Daenerys's point of view chapters to actually explore her point of view. Her traumatic experiences are described so briefly. GRRM might be trying to get some shock value out of that brevity, which does work sometimes, but I still feel the lack of followup.

The narrator does continue to check in with Daenerys's sex life, but it barely qualifies as being from her point of view. Instead, it's voyeuristic (and again very brief). The most recent check-in informed us that Daenerys has been exhausted from all the sex she's been having, because her pregnancy has only made Drogo hornier. Okay, but I have literally no clue what Dany's experience of this is, outside of being exhausted. (Does she enjoy it or not? Does she try to resist? How rapey is their relationship these days?) The narrator does remind us in the same chapter, though, that Daenerys has "small, tender breasts." She is by far the most sexualized character in the book. Which would be fine if her actual experience was honored or treated seriously at all.
"Hunger is the purest sin"