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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #795 on: May 14, 2019, 03:42:17 PM
Right, not premeditation, but certainly a decision is being made. Taking a look at that scene (and it's a great performance), Daenerys seems to be coming to a realization. Shot #1: she looks out over the houses of King's Landing, contemplating what to do for a surprising amount of time. Shot #2: her expression is souring. Shot #3: not only is she getting mad, but her lip is quivering. Then, bells. Shot #4: Dany gazes at the Red Keep as if memories are being stirred up. Shot #5: the distinctive expression of having been wronged (she even makes a sound that's a wounded whimper!), followed by a boiling, fiery rage. A decision has been made.

This sequence has emotion, but more than that it feels like Daenerys is coalescing everything she's been through and everything she stands for. It's not impulsive. It's more like something is dawning on her, and after several seasons of walking the line, she's finally deciding who she wants to be.

I can't believe I'm talking myself into this, but Dany's turn makes a lot of sense on rewatch, and there is actually a ton of character information on screen. Pretty much all of that work is being done by the actor and the director. (Which is kind of true of this season as a whole.)

People's opinion of this moment's execution (including myself here) was colored by how difficult it was to absorb and to stomach. But I think it was actually done quite well.
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Reply #796 on: May 14, 2019, 07:20:23 PM
So many miscellaneous thoughts I can finally put into too many words 2 days later. *BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS ABOUND (but also a disguised pitch to make you want to read the books if you haven't)*

Spoiler: ShowHide
– I don't really like the "Dany breaking bad" comparisons. She never broke bad. She was always a kettle waiting to go off. She's a morally grey character like everyone else on the show (are nuanced TV characters dead now?). Granted the show made a mad dash for the finish line and spent too much time on spectacle over simple scenes of characters talking in rooms, but this was always the ending GRRM was headed for (unless he decides to burn that all up and start anew now – oh please do it George, you know you want to). I do think B&W did their best trying to plant the seeds for Dany's Targaryen rage over the years. We got her brother's golden crown scene. We got her vengeful Qarth acid trip in S2. As Joanna Robinson says, "Dany gets high off her own supply" in the final scene of S3. Then in S4 she LITERALLY CRUCIFIES people. And in S7 she torches Sam's dad and brother. Sometimes I can't tell if all the rushing (6 quick episodes instead of a slow burn of 10 makes no sense if you want to hit all these plot points) is because B&W just wanted to be done with it or if it's because HBO wanted to keep things on budget and please their AT&T corporate overlords. Regardless, Dany is much more of a Tony Soprano than a Walter White.

– I love Jeremy's analysis of the editing/shot choices in THAT scene – you know, the one that's going to win Emilia the Emmy. For me that entire scene is the embodiment of the famous "when a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin" quote. It's almost an impossible task for an actor to be asked to convince millions of non-book readers that this is a choice the real Dany would make after so little characterization this season, but Emilia once again proves how genius of a decision her last-minute casting was. Also Miguel's directorial choices here were perfect.

– Re Valonqar prophecy: I know it isn't canon in the show but I have to disagree with Joanna on this one. I don't think this prophecy is one of the misdirects we get in the books. There's really only two that GRRM continually returns to throughout the five novels – the Valonqar and the Azor Ahai prophecies. The Valonqar prophecy states that "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." I don't understand how what happens in Episode 5 qualifies as a fulfillment or twist on the prophecy. My conspiracy theory here is that GRRM politely asked B&W to purposely divert from this story beat so as not to dilute the impact of Jaime killing Cersei in the books. But in reality the decision probably boils down to the fact that B&W completely screwed up the the last 4 seasons when it comes to the relationships between the Lannister siblings. In the books Jaime and Tyrion don't part on good terms AT ALL when Jaime reveals he lied about Tyrion's first wife being a prostitute when they were younger. In fact, I would argue it's a relationship ending-conversation that they have in the books. In the show they've been in a full-on bromance ever since, so why would they write the Cersei/Jaime relationship any different? In Feast for Crows Jaime pretty much despises Cersei for her infidelity, something he knew nothing about until Tyrion spitefully told him. Anyways, if you feel let down by Jaime's storyline in the show, read the books to experience the way it should have ended, with Jaime's golden hand strangling Cersei.

– So Tyrion definitely can't be a Targaryen in the show now...But the dragon must have three heads. Does this mean Young Griff is NOT a pretender in the books??? Does that give him the best claim to the throne, or does that still reside with Jon?

– For Fire & Blood readers: naming Jon "Aegon" makes no sense when he's clearly a "Jaehaerys" am I right?

– Is it weird if I'm still holding out for Lady Stoneheart in the final ep?

– Greyworm is one of my favorite characters this season!!! I'm actually quite impressed with B&W on this. To take such a minor book character and send him on a fully fleshed-out, uplifting, and ultimately tragic journey that book readers could never have predicted is really quite impressive. I think most people were expecting him to die during The Long Night, but keeping him alive only to witness the beheading of his true love is a twist that can only be described as Martin-esque. Here's hoping Greyworm makes it to the beaches of Naarth for some much needed R&R! Also if Dany is "Tony" then, per World Forgot, that makes Greyworm her "Christopher."

**Boy Elizabeth Warren's Dany essay did not age well...
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Reply #797 on: May 14, 2019, 07:47:57 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide
So many miscellaneous thoughts I can finally put into too many words 2 days later. *BOOK SPOILERS ABOUND (but also a disguised pitch to make you want to read the books if you haven't)*

– I don't really like the "Dany breaking bad" comparisons. She never broke bad. She was always a kettle waiting to go off. She's a morally grey character like everyone else on the show (are nuanced TV characters dead now?). Granted the show made a mad dash for the finish line and spent too much time on spectacle over simple scenes of characters talking in rooms, but this was always the ending GRRM was headed for (unless he decides to burn that all up and start anew now – oh please do it George, you know you want to). I do think B&W did their best trying to plant the seeds for Dany's Targaryen rage over the years. We got her brother's golden crown scene. We got her vengeful Qarth acid trip in S2. As Joanna Robinson says, "Dany gets high off her own supply" in the final scene of S3. Then in S4 she LITERALLY CRUCIFIES people. And in S7 she torches Sam's dad and brother. Sometimes I can't tell if all the rushing (6 quick episodes instead of a slow burn of 10 makes no sense if you want to hit all these plot points) is because B&W just wanted to be done with it or if it's because HBO wanted to keep things on budget and please their AT&T corporate overlords. Regardless, Dany is much more of a Tony Soprano than a Walter White.

– I love Jeremy's analysis of the editing/shot choices in THAT scene – you know, the one that's going to win Emilia the Emmy. For me that entire scene is the embodiment of the famous "when a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin" quote. It's almost an impossible task for an actor to be asked to convince millions of non-book readers that this is a choice the real Dany would make after so little characterization this season, but Emilia once again proves how genius of a decision her last-minute casting was. Also Miguel's directorial choices here were perfect.

– Re Valonqar prophecy: I know it isn't canon in the show but I have to disagree with Joanna on this one. I don't think this prophecy is one of the misdirects we get in the books. There's really only two that GRRM continually returns to throughout the five novels – the Valonqar and the Azor Ahai prophecies. The Valonqar prophecy states that "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." I don't understand how what happens in Episode 5 qualifies as a fulfillment or twist on the prophecy. My conspiracy theory here is that GRRM politely asked B&W to purposely divert from this story beat so as not to dilute the impact of Jaime killing Cersei in the books. But in reality the decision probably boils down to the fact that B&W completely screwed up the the last 4 seasons when it comes to the relationships between the Lannister siblings. In the books Jaime and Tyrion don't part on good terms AT ALL when Jaime reveals he lied about Tyrion's first wife being a prostitute when they were younger. In fact, I would argue it's a relationship ending-conversation that they have in the books. In the show they've been in a full-on bromance ever since, so why would they write the Cersei/Jaime relationship any different? In Feast for Crows Jaime pretty much despises Cersei for her infidelity, something he knew nothing about until Tyrion spitefully told him. Anyways, if you feel let down by Jaime's storyline in the show, read the books to experience the way it should have ended, with Jaime's golden hand strangling Cersei.

– So Tyrion definitely can't be a Targaryen in the show now...But the dragon must have three heads. Does this mean Young Griff is NOT a pretender in the books??? Does that give him the best claim to the throne, or does that still reside with Jon?

– For Fire & Blood readers: naming Jon "Aegon" makes no sense when he's clearly a "Jaehaerys" am I right?

– Is it weird if I'm still holding out for Lady Stoneheart in the final ep?

– Greyworm is one of my favorite characters this season!!! I'm actually quite impressed with B&W on this. To take such a minor book character and send him on a fully fleshed-out, uplifting, and ultimately tragic journey that book readers could never have predicted is really quite impressive. I think most people were expecting him to die during The Long Night, but keeping him alive only to witness the beheading of his true love is a twist that can only be described as Martin-esque. Here's hoping Greyworm makes it to the beaches of Naarth for some much needed R&R! Also if Dany is "Tony" then, per World Forgot, that makes Greyworm her "Christopher."

**Boy Elizabeth Warren's Dany essay did not age well...

Spoiler: ShowHide

Yeah, the Dany stuff is 100% a book thing. Toasting KL is surely the third 'holy shit moment'. Martin has said there had been one huge change/twist partway through writing Winds but I don't think that this is it.

I was so certain about Jamie taking out Cersei. Perhaps this indicates that he will also lapse in the book.

I've never cared for the Tyrion Targaryen idea, it undermined the amazing Lannister relationships. In any case, Aegon can still be the third head. If he's a Blackfyre, he's still a dragon, still a Targaryen by blood.

I was a bit caught off guard by Jon being named Aegon but I've heard that that naming multiple kids in the same thing was not totally unheard of in past centuries. Jon definitely inherited some of Aegon's story as did Cersei. Maybe book Jon has no other name (which I would prefer).

Stoneheart in the books is a big question mark for me. Gotta be a good reason why Martin fought hard to have her in the show.


Fernando

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Reply #798 on: May 15, 2019, 12:24:08 AM
I'm devastated. That was awful (in a red wedding type of way)

After thinking a lot about it and read all of your great takes of what happened, I no longer am disappointed, that is my state of mind and I love to be that invested in a work of fiction, as opposed to the current US politics of which I'm taking a little break, it's one awful thing after another (e.g. Georgia).

I fundamentally disagree with this. Remember her reaction to Drogo killing her brother? This has ALWAYS been an inherent aspect of her character, it just took a specific confluence of events for it to fully emerge.

Completely agree, she in fact has been merciless many times, that one was probably the first, next season she leaves Doreah locked up in Xaro's safe and for me that's a horrible way to die, way worse than just execute them.


Right, not premeditation, but certainly a decision is being made. Taking a look at that scene (and it's a great performance), Daenerys seems to be coming to a realization. Shot #1: she looks out over the houses of King's Landing, contemplating what to do for a surprising amount of time. Shot #2: her expression is souring. Shot #3: not only is she getting mad, but her lip is quivering. Then, bells. Shot #4: Dany gazes at the Red Keep as if memories are being stirred up. Shot #5: the distinctive expression of having been wronged (she even makes a sound that's a wounded whimper!), followed by a boiling, fiery rage. A decision has been made.

 :bravo: Upon watching again that scene you nailed it.


Spoiler: ShowHide

Yeah, the Dany stuff is 100% a book thing. Toasting KL is surely the third 'holy shit moment'. Martin has said there had been one huge change/twist partway through writing Winds but I don't think that this is it.

Stoneheart in the books is a big question mark for me. Gotta be a good reason why Martin fought hard to have her in the show.


Spoiler: ShowHide

About the huge change, I have always assumed that he's talking about Stannis death in the show and that would be the plot twist, mainly I remember him saying that after S5 ended unless I'm mistaken.

About Lady S, D&D had a great opportunity to introduce her when the Hound finds Beric and Thoros, I can't see how they could introduce her with one episode left.


Daenerys could have taken the throne and executed Jon and Tyrion. And then let Sansa/Bran/Arya *do* something. Jon has been such a dumbass that I don't want him to be the hero of anything.

Right now i have a similar reaction, I'd wish for Dany to off Jon and (probably) Tyrion and so her reign of terror begins.

I then imagine two options, one is that Arya kills an unsullied and kills Dany, but I also want her to fail, so Sansa back at Winterfell through Bran gets knowledge of the Faceless men and hires them to kill Daenerys which it isn't shown just hinted (the killing).


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #799 on: May 15, 2019, 12:32:53 PM
Having rooted for Daenerys for so long, her turn is absolutely heartbreaking, and I don't think I'll get over that anytime soon. But that's the point, and it works. She made a horrible decision. I think a lot of people are directing their heartbreak at Dan & David & GRRM when it should be directed at Daenerys and really themselves. If I'm being honest, there were a lot of warning signs I had to overlook and try to explain away to root for Daenerys.

I even said this during Season 3, after the Red Wedding:

I want to echo this sentiment that many people are having right now: Burn it, Daenerys. Burn it all to the ground.

Yikes!

I think it's useful to compare Dany's arc with Jaime's. They both made an effort to get in touch with their softer side, and they both relapsed. Jaime with his addiction to Cersei, obviously. Dany's relapse is a bit more complicated, since she's realizing the full potential of her wrath for the first time. With her, it's more like she flirted with temperance for far too long, and she's over it.

(Interestingly, Jaime's relapse ends up being sort of honorable.)

There are valid criticisms that I can't avoid and that I fully agree with. The show clearly prizes spectacle and shock above all else. Preserving maximum surprise means they leave you to fill in some blanks and do some work as a viewer. That's not for everyone. Also with things being a bit rushed, characterization gets messy and inconsistent here and there (thinking of Varys and Jaime).

Speaking of shaky characterization. I saw a comment on the Sansa issue from someone who was sexually abused throughout their childhood, and they actually defended the way Sansa talked about things. They put it this way: Sansa can't change what happened to her, she can't deflect it, can't reverse it, and can never fully heal from it. So she has to accept what it's done to her and attempt to turn that into a positive and empowering thing. Turning lemons into lemonade. You can either attempt to forget the trauma, or you can try to reclaim it, which is what Sansa is doing (pretty successfully). Whether the writers understand this is an open question, but apparently it does sort of track.

So many miscellaneous thoughts I can finally put into too many words 2 days later. *BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS ABOUND (but also a disguised pitch to make you want to read the books if you haven't)*

I read probably 1/3 of the first book a while ago but decided to stop and wait until the show was over. I plan to dive right back in, probably on Monday. Signed up for an Audible account today and got the first 2 books for free (good deal!) and will probably keep the subscription until I have everything.
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Reply #800 on: May 15, 2019, 02:22:58 PM
Speaking of shaky characterization. I saw a comment on the Sansa issue from someone who was sexually abused throughout their childhood, and they actually defended the way Sansa talked about things. They put it this way: Sansa can't change what happened to her, she can't deflect it, can't reverse it, and can never fully heal from it. So she has to accept what it's done to her and attempt to turn that into a positive and empowering thing. Turning lemons into lemonade. You can either attempt to forget the trauma, or you can try to reclaim it, which is what Sansa is doing (pretty successfully). Whether the writers understand this is an open question, but apparently it does sort of track.

There's a fine but clearly delineated difference between "I survived what happened to me and am the person I am now because I'm strong," and "I'm strong now because of what happened to me." One gives credit to the survivor, the other gives credit to the perpetrators. The way the scene was written leaned toward the wrong side of the line, whether due to sloppiness, a misunderstanding of the issue at hand, or (least likely) a deliberate choice.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #801 on: May 15, 2019, 02:50:43 PM
Right, but the take here is that Sansa does not need to be flawless or correct in her reclaiming/recontextualization of the abuse. You could even say she's specifically allowed to delude herself into believing the event is the source of her strength or brought out her strength, even if the truth is something different. I think that's the case here. Sansa is wrong in believing her strength derives from the trauma. I think she would have grown into a powerful and resilient person anyway. But she's allowed to retcon the abuse as a way of coping with it. Because the alternative is forever mourning that it happened.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not sure I buy it (and I very much doubt the writers had this in mind), but it kind of tracks for me.
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Sleepless

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Reply #802 on: May 16, 2019, 11:19:29 AM
Why does the show have to end with someone deserving "winning" the throne? There's been swirling speculation about who it's going to be (guilty!), various theories and conspiracy rumors, but this whole show has been about Dany's quest to reclaim the throne she believes was rightfully hers. We just saw her decisively conquer King's Landing, albeit in a style her advisors warned against, and in our eyes she's gone from a potential hero to a despot, but why does that mean that she's now not going to rule? Sure, there's ways that she could potentially be overthrown and a last-minute "happy" ending tacked on, but that's a lot of ground to cover in the final episode. I think this might well be the end: Dany is the ruler of Westeros, but she's a far cry from the ruler she - and we - hoped. We may have already witnessed the final twist in this tale, and now the dust is going to settle, and the world isn't that much of a better place than it ever was. War is hell and accomplishes nothing.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #803 on: May 16, 2019, 12:30:07 PM
If we're going with the premise that this show prizes spectacle, and if we consider the length of the finale, I would bet on some serious developments including Daenerys being overthrown. It's not going to be a full-blown war episode (no Sapochnik, and 2 in a row are unlikely), so the spectacle needs to be plot-heavy. I'm avoiding spoilers, but I think it's safe to say a few characters in particular are due for payoffs, which would probably not be possible if Daenerys simply reigns.
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Drenk

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Reply #804 on: May 16, 2019, 12:33:39 PM
The show became Daenerys centric after the writers decided to throw away everything else and not include new characters. Killing Stannis was a weird choice. It began the trend, if I remember correctly, of getting rid of everything that could really give us a game of thrones—one episode is now too short to have a real conflict with Daenerys, and they'll probably just get rid of her now that she's Evil which is not really a grey zone anymore, is it? When Cersei killed everyone, it made sense because she needed to survive and because she doesn't give a shit about the people in King's Landing. I really thought that Daenerys would lose her patience and go win the war with her dragons in Episode 4, killing, yes, enough citizens for Tyrion and Jon to be alarmed. It probably would have been less big but the beginning of Winds of Winter lasts 15 minutes and had a huge impact.
The aftermath would have involved some real scheme from Sansa/Varys, and Jon being loyal but in a Ned Stark way, not a moron way. Daenerys would not have been Hitler but people could not deny anymore that her sense of justice is warped. But I've waited so long to see the dragon(s) over King's Landing that I pretended that it wasn't awkwardly done. But now that I'm anticipating the finale I'm struggling with what appears like pure hatred for the people she wanted to free from tyranny twenty minutes before burning them. I understand that it appeared like a twist for some viewers but studying how different people would govern was one of the subjects of GoT, so you have to believe that Daenerys didn't consider that the citizens were innovent which is hard to do, or that she was so angry that she wanted to continue smashing things after her easy win, something that I could understand if she explains Sunday that she's subject to fugue states.
Also, I thought that Cersei was on a suicide mission. But apparently she believed that Euron could save her: people make fun of fanfictions on the net, but I think that even the most basic ideas don't have Cersei trusting a low-cost Pirate of the Caribbean. (They also willingly downgraded Euron. Why? I have no idea.) To have Cersei reduced in tears, surprised that she won't survive was weird...
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #805 on: May 17, 2019, 06:32:03 PM
This is enlightening. Definitely learned a few details I did not know.

First of all, it wasn't simply that GRRM gave bullet points to D&D. They had 3 days of "story conferences."


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Drenk

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Reply #806 on: May 17, 2019, 06:47:47 PM
I think the endgame will be mostly the same*, yes. But as they said: the show became so different that, story-wise, they'll be two different versions. In that sense: I don't understand why they needed to learn about Martin's plan, they could have just written *their* ending, I'm sure that the character development would have been more coherent. And how can Martin give his plan almost a decade before publishing the penultimate volume* of his series? Martin has a vague idea of where he wants to end the story but he probably doesn't know, exactly, before he's writing—that's why this series became a huge monster in the first place.

Look at the first pitch from Martin for A Song of Ice and Fire in 1993:

https://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/



*We'll know at some point even if Martin never publishes Spring, which is a possibility...
* Or it might be two decades? Or never published, too.
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Lottery

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Reply #807 on: May 17, 2019, 10:57:51 PM
You know, I used to think he had no idea where he was really going and he kept on adding on random plots but now I've come to realise that he knows a lot more about where he is going than he lets on. His delays and the passage of time have had a majorly negative effect on the perception of the last two books so what could be careful and intentional plotting appears to be superfluous and meandering (time will tell). As it stands, there are a few plotlines that are rather puzzling but as I've mentioned before, thanks to the show, you can make some educated guesses.

This is a pretty interesting description of his process:
Quote
For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet.

I like this approach because he's really following the character through their story in the most natural way. This is the best explanation for current delays considering the number of players in the story now.
So he's carrying all these possibilities in his head and he knows that A and B should meet at C but he needs to figure out how he can get fifty other characters/events to bring this about naturally. The showrunners don't really have the same luxury.

It would have been worthwhile to pursue a different ending it seems. They were already making mind-boggling deviations as early S5 with the Dorne storyline. Some of the current story issues appear to be the result for aiming for (GRRM's) endpoints without having the proper groundwork for it. But the finale will be here very soon, we'll see.

EDIT:

Also, someone has suggested that the trigger bells were taken from another character. It makes a whole lot of sense. Not so much for Dany though.
SPOILERS ADWD.
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    Last night he'd dreamt of Stoney Sept again. Alone, with sword in hand, he ran from house to house, smashing down doors, racing up stairs, leaping from roof to roof, as his ears rang to the sound of distant bells. Deep bronze booms and silver chiming pounded through his skull, a maddening cacophony of noise that grew ever louder until it seemed as if his head would explode.

    Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts. Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert's warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince.



Drenk

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Reply #808 on: May 19, 2019, 08:34:24 PM
SPOILERS IT'S AIRING

"She used their innocence against me. So I butchered them when I won." Okay?

Oh, God, 30 minutes in and Jon just kills her? I've never seen a season rushed like that...

There's no story. It's a list of plot points. Why didn't they just move on with Star Wars? The dude who wrote episode 2 could have been showrunner.

IT'S DONE

What a waste.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #809 on: May 19, 2019, 09:43:37 PM
IT WAS PERFECT.

(Drenk, you're nuts.)
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