Game of Thrones (spoilers)

[polkablues]

So this time loop, do we think it'll be explained further? Or will it just stay in the "that was pretty cool, but lets not think about it too hard" zone that most time travel related things live in?

I think it's going to continue to be crucial to Bran's ongoing impact on the story. There are a lot of theories about certain aspects of the story's history that could be tied into this ability (the Mad King's voices in his head, for example).

[Jeremy Blackman]

I don't think it needs more explanation, necessarily. As they say on Lost: whatever happened, happened. If I'm willing to accept time travel, I'm also willing to accept time loops. They make more sense than the alternative, which is seeing one version of reality play out, and then seeing time travel change that.

But I like that mad king theory. And...

SPECULATION SPOILERS

If GoT really wants to go down the rabbit hole, they'll follow the "Bran the originator" theory. Under this theory, Bran went back in time to build the wall. And he might have done a lot more.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_the_Builder

[polkablues]

I want and expect them to go all the way down the rabbit hole and come out the other side. I've long felt that a major theme of the overarching story is that the events of history are essentially an immovable force, that the players of the game are more swept up in the wave than they actually affect it, despite all their vanities to the contrary. How perfect a culmination of that thesis would it be to discover in the end that the whole of this world's history is a closed causal loop?

[Tictacbk]

Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?

[polkablues]

Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?

I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Totally agree. Another example is the prophecy told to Cersei. Knowing the prophecy does absolutely nothing to prevent its fulfillment, because it was always going to happen. In fact, Cersei learning the prophecy might have been a prerequisite for the prophecy itself existing and being true. That has nothing to do with time travel, but it's the same principle.

I'm ready for the rabbit hole. I really am. I only have some skepticism to guard myself from getting too excited.

[Fernando]

Great posts guys, keep'em coming.

SPECULATION SPOILERS

If GoT really wants to go down the rabbit hole, they'll follow the "Bran the originator" theory. Under this theory, Bran went back in time to build the wall. And he might have done a lot more.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_the_Builder

maybe he doesn't build it but like Inception he puts the idea through warging and then it gets built by whoever...

--- --- ---

It was not great to hear Sansa talk about her injuries, but I suppose it was necessary, and locating it in that confrontation with Littlefinger seemed appropriate. The nights of the Vale are going to ride in and help whether she likes it or not, right?

I'm not so sure, and the more I think about Littlefinger telling her about the Blackfish the more I don't believe him. Sansa told him to go back to Moat Cailin but that is a Bolton stronghold, in fact it's the one that made Ramsey a Bolton when Reek passed as Theon to fool the Iron Born, so why would LF be there?

[Tictacbk]

I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. But from a dramatic storytelling standpoint, you can only get away with that so many times.

[Jeremy Blackman]

I'm sure there's going to be a chorus of "nothing happened!" in response to this episode, but on balance it was equally exciting to me as last week's.

Then again, maybe I'm being unfair and people (six seasons in) are starting to figure out what "happened" means in Game of Thrones. Complex plots don't just create themselves. The show has to actually do it. And I for one love seeing all these narrative screws turning. Partly because the show is really helping us make those anticipatory connections. For example, Benjen tells Bran that the Night King will come to the world of men and you'll be waiting for him... then it immediately cuts to Daenerys discussing her plans to conquer Westeros. Get it? Daenerys will be there too, and she'll have a dragon. (I have Bran warging into a dragon at 95% now. I can't wait to see Drogon's eyes roll back in his head — that's going to break people's brains.)

Daenerys's speech and show of power really worked for me, too. I know it sort of came out of nowhere (except it didn't, discussed above), but something clicked. Maybe it was the majesty of Drogon. Maybe it was the satisfaction of seeing her connection with the Dothraki reaffirmed.

Maybe it was my ever-increasing desire to see King's Landing scorched with dragon fire. As Aegon said in Bran's vision, burn them all. Seriously. Margaery included.

She is a bit of a mystery to me right now. What's really going on there? I'd wager it's a cynical play to get maximum power for herself, but that's so dark. Shutting out her family and potentially collapsing House Tyrell? Is she that dark? Is that even a smart move?

Here's what should happen: King's Landing remains overrun with religious zealots, and it just gets worse, forcing Cersei out of the capital. (But the Tyrells stay there, because their family is captive.) Jaime's encounter at River Run leads him to ally with the Starks to turn against Frey and Bolton and take back Winterfell. The Starks are willing to accept his help because he convinces them the Red Wedding etc. was Tywin's thing. Perhaps Jaime asks them to help him take back King's Landing, but they're lukewarm on the idea. Before that can materialize (remember this all takes a while), White Walkers appear, and the battle begins. They actually get into or near King's Landing, fulfilling Daenerys's vision of the frozen throne. They're defeated by wildfire (which is in King's Landing, as we were reminded of this week) and dragons — echoing what Aegon did — plus soldiers with dragonglass arrows and a select few with Valyrian steel. Daenerys rules, and Jaime is allowed to hang out there in some capacity, just in case she goes mad.

[Tictacbk]

I'm gonna take your juxtaposition theory with the Bran/Daenerys scenes and accept them. Because otherwise that Dany scene sucked. It served no other purpose than to show that she has dragons, is a badass, and has a faithful army, all things which we already know. AND we've already ended episodes/seasons on all those notes.

I did, for the first time in a while, love the Arya scenes. Finally she's coming to her senses. Can't wait to see where that goes.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

I loved everything else. Don't misinterpret this as a hate post. Just a little frustrated with certain storylines. I like JB's "What should happen." They seem to be building toward another war, and we understand all the working pieces better and better now.

[Jeremy Blackman]

I'm gonna take your juxtaposition theory with the Bran/Daenerys scenes and accept them. Because otherwise that Dany scene sucked. It served no other purpose than to show that she has dragons, is a badass, and has a faithful army, all things which we already know. AND we've already ended episodes/seasons on all those notes.

I can feel the showrunners' urge to end episodes with inspirational Daenerys moments whenever possible. But I think this one, however sudden, was important. More than anything, as all these worlds are starting to converge, they're reminding us to root for Daenerys.

It's funny. Some people complain about the repetitive and laborious nature of Daenerys's journey, but that's exactly the point. This what it takes in this world to pull off something so audacious. You might have to give more than a few inspirational speeches. Even if you have dragons and magic and fate on your side, you will constantly face complications and setbacks. Daenerys is getting better at turning those into opportunities and forward momentum. If she's victorious, it's going to be hard-won.

Also, I think we really needed to see proof that the Dothroki are 100% with her. Yes, this was a very theatrical and chest-thumping way to do it, but that's precisely what the Dothraki respond to. Daenerys's talk about Khal Drogo wasn't for nothing; she's getting back to her roots, culturally and spiritually, to the point of delivering a new version of Khal Drogo's speech. I thought it was powerful and completely substantive.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

He's Jon's R&D guy for white walkers, so I think Sam is going to be crucial. Assuming he does get to the citadel, he'll no doubt discover a few key secrets. I hope he can design his own major, because there are specific things he needs to be studying right now.

Maybe he learns about wildfire and gets the idea to use it against the dead. (Then he convinces Jon that they need the wildfire from King's Landing?) Sam will surely discover Jon's parentage, right? I'd like a montage of Sam figuring that out combined with Bran seeing the conclusion of his Tower of Joy vision. (Although, Bran's quickfire vision in this episode has some major hints.)

The prevailing theory is that Jorah (now on a knowledge-finding mission) will meet Samwell in the Citadel, and this is what will eventually bring Daenerys and Jon together.

[polkablues]

(Margaery) is a bit of a mystery to me right now. What's really going on there? I'd wager it's a cynical play to get maximum power for herself, but that's so dark. Shutting out her family and potentially collapsing House Tyrell? Is she that dark? Is that even a smart move?

Margaery is probably the craftiest character in the entire story to this point. I think she's recognized that direct opposition to the church is doomed to failure, and she recognized the craving for power in the High Sparrow's little origin story he regaled her with a couple weeks ago. The smart play for her, and she is a smart player, is to let him have that power, at least temporarily. The question remains, can she maintain control over the strategy, or is the High Sparrow even more cunning than she gives him credit for? My money's on the latter.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sam gets a hero arc similar to Neville Longbottom in the Harry Potter series. He's steadily gathering courage, he's probably the most single-mindedly good and kind person in this entire story universe, and now he has a motherfucking Valyrian steel sword. Sam is 100% going to have a major role in the climax of this story.

[Fernando]

Margaery
The first thing I noticed when they were at the temple's steps is that she had her hair untouched, then it became clear why, this was a power play on her part, I'm not entirely convinced she's ‘really’ turned to the faith but what I don't think will happen is that she will betray her family, all these events seem to be going to fulfill Cersei's prophecy and she loses everything, speaking of…


Cersei
So her champion will be the mountain, no surprise there, but I wonder who will be the Sparrow’s…and I think it could be Loras, that's going to be his atonement. Although I read a spoilery rumor of someone else that could be the Sparrow's champion...whoever ends up facing the mountain who is practically a zombie, my money is on the Sparrow's champion defeating him (it) and so Cersei is doomed…


Arya

There's no way Arya is staying with the faceless guys, right? She does not seem comfortable killing random people for money, nor does she seem to have any deep belief in this Many-Faced God. I mean, this is actually a fairly sinister thing that she should probably get away from. It is literally a death cult. I assume she's just going to use her training for her own purposes once she inevitably splits.

Good prediction JB. So now the question is, where will she go? And if the faceless are after her she is pretty much doomed, maybe not this season (I hope) but eventually she will die, right?


Sam
Yet another terrible father that has his head so far up his ass he can't fucking see how smart is his son and sometimes that is better than brute force.
Sam's story isn't boring to me actually, in fact I'm curious what will happen when he gets to the citadel, how the Maesters will receive him (them), what will they say when he shares his knowledge about whitewalkers, wights, dragon glass, valyrian steel…

[Jeremy Blackman]

I recently heard a theory that Jaqen is simultaneously (or even primarily) testing the Waif. This assignment seemed specifically designed so that Arya would reject it. Jaqen already knew what would happen, and he knew Arya would not be staying with them. The Waif, meanwhile, does actually need to be tested. She is getting way too emotionally invested.

You can go further with this. "She has a point" could be slyly referring to Needle. "Shame... a girl has many gifts" could be referring (in disappointment) to the Waif, not Arya.

Maybe Jaqen also simply wants to see who is the superior assassin. Although even when Arya inevitably wins, he'll need a reason to let her go. The fact that a face has been added to the hall either way (paraphrasing Jaqen) might be enough.

[Fernando]

 

I love your theory to death, and we need it to be true. Otherwise, if we take the conversation between Jaqen and the Waif literally, Arya is doomed and will be dead no matter what.

one question, I watched that conversation (J&W) again and 'she has a point' isn't mentioned, did that happen in another episode?