Author Topic: Game of Thrones (spoilers)  (Read 59582 times)

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Drenk

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #585 on: August 28, 2017, 01:22:50 PM »
0
"I want to close here, however, with a thought that’s not meant to get Benioff and Weiss off the hook, even though it’s probably going to sound that way: Maybe it’s the White Walker threat itself that is killing the show, and perhaps it would’ve killed it eventually anyhow, whether the showrunners had fresh Martin novels to draw on or not. The story of a kingdom warring against itself while a greater threat gathers is one that’s been building steam since season one, and that’s Martin’s idea, not Weiss and Benioff’s. It’s a great story with a touch of a parable to it, and it seems more relevant now than ever before (see the news for details). But no matter how it plays out, the end result will be to retrospectively cast all of the feuds and double-crosses, tragedies and victories that came before as comparatively trivial. “None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat” is a good idea on paper, but given how much emotion we’ve invested in the stories of all these characters over the course of seven seasons, and how deeply invested we are in the humanity of even the worst of them, that might not be a sentiment that anyone, not even the hardiest of die-hard Thrones fans, wants to hear. It could be that no matter how we get to that ending, and whether it’s a happy one, a tragic-ironic one, or something in between, it will still disappoint us on some level, because it will constitute a negation of our interest as viewers, and even the most vocal boosters of Thrones know that the series is probably not equipped to make the sorts of nuanced philosophical statements required to satisfactorily deal with something like that."

http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html?utm_campaign=vulture&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1
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RegularKarate

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #586 on: August 28, 2017, 02:45:15 PM »
+3
I like where the pieces ended up for sure and there were some great moments. Most moments mentioned here I did love, but the only part that got my blood pumping was the Cersei/Jaime scene.

It's just sloppier now. I forgive the show and I'm fine with it. I still love watching it and will be VERY excited when it comes back on. It's just not as careful as it once was.

The Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger stuff just fucking sucked. It would have been worth being so frustrated and bored by that story-line if Littlefinger's death had been more satisfying. The turn was telegraphed a little too heavily for that moment to be all that exciting. I was just relieved to have been done with it.

And how much cooler would it have been if we hadn't seen the dragon being pulled out of the water at the end of the last episode? We see the army of the dead marching toward the wall, then we see a dragon coming and oh fuck, who's riding that dragon? Oh NO!

Anyway, I really do still love this show. I just think this season was sloppy.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #587 on: August 28, 2017, 03:27:28 PM »
+1
"But no matter how it plays out, the end result will be to retrospectively cast all of the feuds and double-crosses, tragedies and victories that came before as comparatively trivial. 'None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat' is a good idea on paper, but given how much emotion we’ve invested in the stories of all these characters over the course of seven seasons, and how deeply invested we are in the humanity of even the worst of them, that might not be a sentiment that anyone, not even the hardiest of die-hard Thrones fans, wants to hear."

Wow. I think he's completely wrong there. Like he's missing the point.

"None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat" is a rhetorical technique used by characters within the show to convince other characters. In truth, the feuds and double-crosses and alliances matter greatly. Those events have brought things exactly where they are right now. Those very alliances are currently dictating exactly how the white walkers are fought, including humanity's chance of winning this fight! Why is Daenerys going to help fight the white walkers? Because she came to Westeros to conquer it, and because she allied with Jon. That's also why the Night King has his own dragon and was able to bring down the wall. How could you describe that as "comparatively trivial"??? That doesn't make any sense, because these things are so obviously connected.

I have never seen Matt Zoller Seitz make such a dumb argument. What is this show doing to our beloved critics?
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #588 on: August 28, 2017, 04:02:51 PM »
+1
Loved the episode.

I know I've said it before, but I think this is the best episode of the series. At the very least, it stands side by side with The Winds of Winter. It was the same kind of surreal viewing experience — in some moments I couldn't believe what I was seeing because my dreams were being so thoroughly fulfilled.

What makes this episode so great? It's deeply and relentlessly character-driven. Almost in a literal sense. You feel every character's motivation propelling this thing along. Any character beat that wasn't pitch-perfect was later revealed to be part of a twist, making it more perfect. This was truly a magnificent thing to watch.

I think this is my proudest moment of GoT observation; I didn't hear it echoed anywhere, but I was 100% convinced:

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

When Sansa turned her head and said "Littlefinger," I literally started clapping and continued to do so at various points throughout that spectacular scene. It was the most paying payoff of all payoffs. I still can't believe it actually happened. God bless this show.

Good prediction. I was wrong you guys were right, Bran intervened at the right time, and Sansa and Arya fooled LF (and me), probably the only way he could be fooled by actually fighting or pretending to do so, and as you said that moment when Sansa says his name in the great hall was so amazing, I wanted for a long time to see the unmasking of all the shit Little Finger has caused, the conspiracy to murder Jon Arryn, how he betrayed Ned (YES!!!), the dagger, everything. A really emotional moment.

Bran was great too, and that thing he did when Sam tells him about Jon's true birth, he really can see everything but he needs further information to trace the past, like knowing that bit of info about the High Septon's diary and realizing not only Jon's birth but that Robert's rebellion was nothing but a lie. Now, if Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, did she died giving birth or something else? You guys must remember how bloody she was when Bran saw her with her father.
I'm glad he saw the NK riding the dragon, now Dany can't hesitate about this war.


- All three Lannisters were at the top of their game. In the past, the show was often at its best when it was Lannisters talking. Good to see we have them top tier Lannister scenes again. Lena Headey was so good in the Tyrion and Jaime scenes, I became interested in Cersei again- even if her plans are crazier than ever.
- Overall, just a strong character driven episode loaded with great little interactions.
- Great to see Jaime growing a backbone. I was so scared The Mountain was going to do something. But finally, finally, Jaime, thank god.

Agree, I have missed those long conversations and we got a few in this episode, I really thought too Cersei was gonna kill Jaime, but she couldn't and now he will go north to tell everyone she won't keep her promise to help them.

She will end up alone and will lose everything, even that baby probably.

I wanted Qyburn to keep the wight "alive" for his experiments.


KJ

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #589 on: August 28, 2017, 10:00:10 PM »
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I just watched the episode again and I think Cersei might stay on the throne until the end after all. But it will be irrelevant and won't really matter. First of all there is the thing Jon says about not understanding why people would like to live in Kings Landing instead of the north for example. This could be foreshadowing that a lot of them will move up north when the winter is there real. The north is more prepared for winter and staying in Kings Landing might not be a possibility. I also don't think they will be very happy when they realize their queen choice to not help Jon/Dany in the war against the NK and decide they want to follow them instead.

It would be a poetic ending and fit her character. She will sit on the throne until the very end because of her stubbornness and it will be the end of her. The wheel will be broken, the lone wolf dies and the pack survives, etc.

I liked the episode. People are saying it was predictably but I thought it was fairly  unpredictably how they focused on the character instead of big battles or deaths. That has been standard for the last couple of seasons anyway. It was nice to see something different.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #590 on: August 30, 2017, 01:06:43 AM »
+1
Some are saying the finale proved the "capture a wight" plan was dumb, because Cersei isn't on board after all. But she wasn't the only audience. Jaime is emphatically on board and seems to be defecting. Which could lead to Bronn leaving. And others. This meeting may have other effects too that we've only begun to understand.

It forced Jon to publicly announce his loyalty to Daenerys, which led to other things, which might lead to her becoming pregnant with an heir.

It's like I've been saying. One event leads to another which leads to something else, etc. etc. These novelistic setups require patience to pay off.

Here's a random fun thing I noticed. Jon says he cannot serve two queens, and Randyll Tarly said basically the same thing. In retrospect that feels like foreshadowing. And I really like that symmetry. One of them chose wisely.
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Lottery

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #591 on: August 30, 2017, 03:02:35 AM »
+1
I still think it's dumb. I understand that this resulted in the most important outcome- Dany joining forces with Jon to kill NK and also furthering their relationship as now they know each other to be good, selfless people. But the fact we had to get Jon leading a ranging mission (alongside Jorah Mormont, Sandor Clegane etc...)  beyond the wall to capture a wight while he's KitN to get that point is silly.
The payoff is logical and valuable in terms of plot (and once again sets Jaime's arc in motion again, yay) but the setup is absurd.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #592 on: August 30, 2017, 07:53:36 AM »
+1
I guess I would agree it's a dumb plan in-universe, but not any more than a handful of other plans they've succeeded with. Battle of the Bastards was a dumb plan, and they had no hope of winning without the Sansa Ex Machina. Maybe Jon is buying his own hype in a way. Maybe he's starting to believe in fate.

As for Jon putting himself in the middle of the fight, it seems to me that this happens all the time. Why is that silly? Jon is the best at fighting the dead. Dany is the best at riding dragons. Euron is the best at killing dudes on boats. Even Tyrion fought during Battle of the Blackwater, and attempted to fight before that. Robert fought in Robert's Rebellion. Jaime and Rob fought their own battles too.

In that context, it seems borderline reasonable that you could go beyond the wall and find a wight straggler somewhere, as they have before, and not instantly encounter the whole army. They might have been able to do that with Bran raven-scouting for them.

Presenting a wight to Cersei is the part that seemed potentially silly to me, but I'm so impressed by how that was executed.
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RegularKarate

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #593 on: August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AM »
0
Just rewatched the last three episodes. I think I have less issues with it now.
I like Littlefinger's end. Arya uses the dagger and it's so cruel, quick, and cold. The only thing I don't like are the scenes where Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, supposedly stringing him along. It's very unbelievable that she could fake the surprise, concern, etc... so well. It's because Sophie Turner is playing it like it's genuine and that's intentional, because the audience is being lied to. That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.

Speaking of being lied to, what's up with Cersei and Tyrion? If we are going to believe Cersei's big fake-out plan, she walks away from it knowing that Tyrion would come talk to her. This is when we get half a conversation. What happened in the second half of that conversation? Watching it back-to-back with the previous episode made me aware that Tyrion JUST expressed concerns with Danny about her not have a successor and the last piece of his exchange with Cersei, Tyrion "finds out" (Cersei seemed pretty deliberate about touching her stomach) that she is pregnant. What did Tyrion agree to that we didn't see? It made the moment where he is looking concernedly at the Dong of Ice in fire fuck room come of differently to me.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #594 on: August 30, 2017, 11:18:21 AM »
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That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.

But I think enough clues were there even two weeks ago. They played fair.

What happened in the second half of that conversation? Watching it back-to-back with the previous episode made me aware that Tyrion JUST expressed concerns with Danny about her not have a successor and the last piece of his exchange with Cersei, Tyrion "finds out" (Cersei seemed pretty deliberate about touching her stomach) that she is pregnant. What did Tyrion agree to that we didn't see? It made the moment where he is looking concernedly at the Dong of Ice in fire fuck room come of differently to me.

I believe he did made some kind of deal with her. Perhaps simply a promise to let her child live. I could even see Tyrion going behind Dany's back to make that happen. I don't know how that would actually play out, though, because surely Cersei won't be alive in 8-9 months.

Tyrion brooding in the boat is very interesting. What's your take on that? I didn't know what to think at first. I've come to think he's mostly worried about how this complicates things and compromises their judgment.
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RegularKarate

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #595 on: August 30, 2017, 11:42:01 AM »
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Tyrion brooding in the boat is very interesting. What's your take on that? I didn't know what to think at first. I've come to think he's mostly worried about how this complicates things and compromises their judgment.

At first, I was like "Aw, he's just another Jora in love with Dany" then I decided it was more what you're talking about (especially because the director said as much, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what it is). Now I think there might be something more complicated that will play out next year.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #596 on: August 30, 2017, 05:24:14 PM »
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Oh my. Here's an article offering actual deep analysis of this season. Highly recommended.

Game of Thrones season 7: each character's strategy, ranked by political science

Spoiler alert: Tyrion is not #1.
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Lottery

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #597 on: August 30, 2017, 11:27:57 PM »
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The only thing I don't like are the scenes where Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, supposedly stringing him along. It's very unbelievable that she could fake the surprise, concern, etc... so well. It's because Sophie Turner is playing it like it's genuine and that's intentional, because the audience is being lied to. That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.
That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.
But I think enough clues were there even two weeks ago. They played fair.

At this stage, I'm not entirely sure what the writers were even going for.
Quote
It’s clear after Sansa turns the tables on Littlefinger that she has had some sort of conversation with Bran, but we don’t get to see it. When did it take place?
We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran’s door and says, “I need your help,” or something along those lines. So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, “Oh, s—.”
http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-finale-cut-scene-1202541941/

Ultimately it was a pretty rubbish storyline anyway.

Regarding Tyrion, I'm pretty sure he's upset because he doesn't want any distractions from their initial shared goal (Dany's dream is maybe the only thing that Tyrion thinks is worth living for), he knows how badly things can end when love interferes with duty. There's the theory that he made a deal with Cersei, which is a scary thought and could cause some serious drama down the line. There's the idea that he's upset because he thinks an heir (from Jon and Dany) will ruin the chances of breaking the wheel- though at this stage he should still be thinking Dany is infertile. So because of that I'm sticking with love clouding judgement, confused priorities and other complications.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #598 on: August 31, 2017, 12:14:37 AM »
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At this stage, I'm not entirely sure what the writers were even going for.

Given what Arya is now, I think it was essential that Sansa earned her trust the hard way. They were never going to have an easy reunion. Now this Stark unit is actually stronger than ever. Plus, Littlefinger had to have one last scheme — a desperate and audacious one as he runs out of options. I thought it was very well done.

Regarding Tyrion, I'm pretty sure he's upset because he doesn't want any distractions from their initial shared goal (Dany's dream is maybe the only thing that Tyrion thinks is worth living for), he knows how badly things can end when love interferes with duty. There's the theory that he made a deal with Cersei, which is a scary thought and could cause some serious drama down the line. There's the idea that he's upset because he thinks an heir (from Jon and Dany) will ruin the chances of breaking the wheel- though at this stage he should still be thinking Dany is infertile. So because of that I'm sticking with love clouding judgement, confused priorities and other complications.

Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

From my POV, he should be sort of happy that the Targaryen-Stark alliance looks significantly more solid now.

He does have reason to worry, though. Dany and Jon will probably end up making strategic decisions based on a desire to protect each other or even simply to be together. Just as Dany wanted to travel with Jon despite the risks.
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Lottery

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #599 on: August 31, 2017, 12:52:37 AM »
+2
Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

I'm a bit puzzled by Tyrion these days. He's been a pretty crummy/often ignored hand. He was useless last season, he has a bunch of great scenes this season but generally speaking how valuable has he really been recently? He vouched for Jon, convinced Dany to let Jon mine the dragonglass, suggested the stupid wight plan (and then told Dany to not save Jon and friends), negotiated the dragonpit meeting and then the Cersei agreement (which she quickly betrayed). So, strangely enough he's been there to assist with some of the most important decisions in the season but he's probably failed and been ignored just as much. Exploring his frustrations as the hand of someone he truly admires would be a cool idea (and the boat skulking scene would add to that). Like Varys and LF, perhaps the writers don't really know what to do him anymore in terms of being an active character, I'd hate to see him exist as an accessory to the Dany/Jon story. The theorised secret deal with Cersei would be shocking and disheartening but would demonstrate a welcome degree of independence.

Now that we've finished the season, I am even more eager in seeing how GRRM will navigate these plots- the decisions Tyrion makes in particular but that said, considering that how far the book/show are diverging, we'll probably never get to see how he would do it. I hope something like the Dragonpit meeting (as in the prominent characters come together [in a thematically significant location] to recognise the real threat) will turn up in the book. It has to, right?

As an aside, the Jaime on horseback/putting on glove/snow falling might be my favourite part of the season. The scene had time to breathe. I really liked that.

 

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