Author Topic: Game of Thrones (spoilers)  (Read 59402 times)

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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #495 on: July 30, 2017, 09:38:38 PM »
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SPOILS S07E03

As I said before I hope Cersei has a big win before her inevitable defeat and Dorne doesn't count for me anymore, I mean a win made by herself (plan and execution). It looks thou she will have her revenge against Ellaria, oh what horrors await her...

Wishes granted. This is going way faster than I thought it would.

So Cersei got already her revenge against Ellaria and Oleana Tyrell which I completely forgot, btw, she gloated about Joffrey's murder and didn't rat out Little Finger who keeps getting lucky, although to be fair Cersei should know that he is on the Stark's "side", for now.

The Unsullied were to take Casterly Rock, so they are still with Daenerys. The Dothraki are a complete mystery; I assume they've stayed with Daenerys to protect her and perhaps to be the final force that she rides in with.

If Daenerys really has lost Randyll Tarly's army, that is a brutal loss. His forces were a significant part of the Tyrell army, and the best of them from what I understand.

I think the ballistas will actually be a significant threat just by virtue of their numbers. If Qyburn is producing enough (and I'm sure he is), they will probably be fired like a hail of arrows. They can't not hit a dragon at some point.

Dany OTOH...lost a lot, Grey Worm was successful but will have nowhere to go and not enough provisions to hold the rock, and she lost the Tyrell army and their gold.

Right now she either rides her dragons and takes King's Landing or joins Jon to fight the WW.

The first, if she flies to King's Landing I agree that eventually she would lose a dragon or two and it is way too risky to do it by herself, she would need to split the dragons so she attacks by the sea and by land.

If she goes north she loses Dragon Stone but gains the support of the north, now that's an alliance.


WTF Bran, he proves his powers to Sansa by reminding her of her worst day? Couldn't he think of something else?

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #496 on: July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AM »
+1
Good lord this episode was on point. The writing was razor sharp. Everything worked.

I have never seen the Tyrion/Daenerys relationship rendered with such clarity. Jon & Daenerys, too — they actually had chemistry! Maybe he can sense his Targaryen blood tingling. (Will be surprised to learn she's his aunt, though.) That was so good, all three of them. These characters were fully themselves and their dynamic with each other rang true for every second. What a thing to pull off.

The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

Speculation

So Daenerys is finally the underdog. It seems like she has to try to rescue the Unsullied, right? Would be weird for her to go all this way with them and leave them to die. Funny thing: If both forces headed straight for King's Landing — Daenerys from Dragonstone and the Unsullied from Casterly Rock — they'd arrive around the same time. (Dany might be a little early, but they could work that out.)

Good thing Euron is on the opposite side of the continent, so he can't intercept Dany's landfall. Although... he did make that trip pretty fast all in this episode, so I'm not sure they're going to adhere to the geography this season. Maybe the wizardry he used to build those ships can also fold space-time.

Here's my point, though — given the pieces on the board right now, and which ones are in motion, I don't think Daenerys can delay her attack on King's Landing. And, crucially, Jon needs some time to mine that dragonglass. So we might be back to the conventional order of events — Cersei first, then the white walkers...

But probably playing out more like this:

– Daenerys launches an attack through Westeros toward King's Landing, flanking Jaime's forces with the Dothraki and dragons from the northeast, and Unsullied from the west.

– White walkers break through the wall and crash the party, perhaps saving Daenerys from losing a battle. This would be a good way to end the season.

– In the battle vs. the white walkers, Daenerys will be in a much better position (than the Lannisters) to take them on, thanks to Jon's knowledge (he will probably even insist that her guys keep some of the dragonglass weapons), plus dragonfire. Thus, many more Lannisters will be killed in that battle, leaving the throne that much easier to take. This seems like a fun way to reverse Dany's fortunes when things seem dire.

This would also align with my previous theory, that Daenerys will be largely responsible for defeating the white walkers. She and Jon will be considered the saviors of humanity and welcomed. And she's like okay Jon, I think you earned your title, King in the North it is.

I guess we have to consider the path of the white walkers, though. If they interrupt a Lannister/Daenerys battle like I'm presupposing, does that mean they will have subsumed Winterfell? Or maybe Sansa's foreshadowing means this: White walkers break through the wall, all the Northerners retreat to Winterfell, and Bran protects them all with some kind of spell... so they move south. Bran being at Wintefell does need to pay off, after all.

This also keeps Jon with Daenerys, so they can face the white walkers together. That seems like a crucial thing to achieve. Some foreshadowing this episode setting that up, too. It's really best from a storytelling perspective that Jon stays with Dany. That allows Sansa to continue to prove herself in Winterfell. It allows Littlefinger to remain a threat. And it allows Arya to miss Jon yet again.
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©brad

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #497 on: July 31, 2017, 05:09:05 PM »
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The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Maybe I was wine drunk, but this was the one scene that felt off to me. Maybe it's because I'm so starved for family Stark reunions and I wanted Bran to warm up more, but his solemn reaction felt unearned. Also, the first thing he wants to talk about with his sister after not seeing her for years is about the night of her rape? Uhhhh what?

Again. I was buzzed so maybe I misread the scene.



Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #498 on: July 31, 2017, 05:12:46 PM »
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Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

This is a clear example of what I said about the white walkers not being a real villain, here Cersei depicts the horror that will live Ellaria and there's nothing she can do about it, even if help arrives her girl will be gone, and it's something that the WW or the Night King can't deliver (so far), do they even talk?

©brad

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #499 on: July 31, 2017, 05:42:28 PM »
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Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

This is a clear example of what I said about the white walkers not being a real villain, here Cersei depicts the horror that will live Ellaria and there's nothing she can do about it, even if help arrives her girl will be gone, and it's something that the WW or the Night King can't deliver (so far), do they even talk?

That's another thing that's irking me - and this is coming from a newbie who hasn't read the books - the WW aren't that scary (yet). Outside of Jon ranting about them nonstop, I don't fear them as much as a Ramsey, nor are they as interesting or dimensional of villains as Cersei is (and god damn is she turning into a power-drunk monster).





Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #500 on: July 31, 2017, 07:08:07 PM »
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The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Maybe I was wine drunk, but this was the one scene that felt off to me. Maybe it's because I'm so starved for family Stark reunions and I wanted Bran to warm up more, but his solemn reaction felt unearned. Also, the first thing he wants to talk about with his sister after not seeing her for years is about the night of her rape? Uhhhh what?

Again. I was buzzed so maybe I misread the scene.

Your reaction is reasonable and is the one I think we're supposed to have. That is where Bran is right now. He is other than human in a very literal sense. On top of that, his mind is scrambled with information, as he describes. No one is going to have any great social interactions with him. I think the scene is marvelous exactly for those effects.

When Arya arrives, that will be another weird reunion, because Arya is also other than human. Sansa will realize she's the most normal Stark left. Oh and I wonder what Bran is going to think of Arya...

That's another thing that's irking me - and this is coming from a newbie who hasn't read the books - the WW aren't that scary (yet). Outside of Jon ranting about them nonstop, I don't fear them as much as a Ramsey, nor are they as interesting or dimensional of villains as Cersei is (and god damn is she turning into a power-drunk monster).

Their nature as a cloudy, vague threat is exactly what makes it credible that most people in Westeros are not concerned. Yet. I guarantee there will be a wake up call. It will be all the more glorious given people's shock.

Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.
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©brad

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #501 on: August 01, 2017, 05:50:52 PM »
+2
Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.

Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

Also a friend posted this on FB:

Stark reunion be like:

Jon: I died and came back alive.

Bran: I am the three eyed Raven.

Arya: I am a face changing serial killer.

Sansa: What the fuck.

polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #502 on: August 01, 2017, 05:58:18 PM »
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Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.

Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

I'm not convinced that was GRR Martin's plan when he originally started conceiving the story, but as soon as it became apparent, he leaned into it hard. And in that context, the story HAS to culminate with the fight against the White Walkers, as the entire overarching theme is about confronting the existential threat that everyone's been too distracted by the pettiness of politics to pay attention to.

Also, I'm pretty sure in this metaphor, Jon Snow = Al Gore? Sexy, smoldering Al Gore.
Now you're in the *spoiler* place.

Drenk

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #503 on: August 01, 2017, 05:59:57 PM »
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I forgot Rickon was dead. I thought everyone had forgotten him. Again.
I'm so many people.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #504 on: August 01, 2017, 06:00:42 PM »
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Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

Not to brag, but I was on it 4 years ago:

I wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.

Fun fact, that was the first time anyone ever had that theory.

Vox recently had a piece on this that went viral:

Game of Thrones is secretly all about climate change
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Lottery

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #505 on: August 01, 2017, 09:36:43 PM »
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Favourite GOT thing I've seen this week:

"You're not a wartime consigliere, Tyrion."

I might have fired Tyrion back in Meereen.

Second best thing was someone describing Bran as Doctor Branhatten.

I've watched the Jon/Tyrion/Dany scenes a dozen times by now. So happy to see them.
Almost a bit funny seeing Jon in a place with nice weather.

Harington's come a long way. So has Sophie Turner actually. And I've liked Clarke this season too.

One thing's that annoying to see is people bitching about Dany. I find her annoying every now and then but she's earned the right to speak the way she does, she doesn't have the time or desire to be lovely and accommodating for Jon- though her bend the knee type stuff doesn't appear to be doing much for her breaking the wheel objective.

Weird to see LF and Varys be seemingly useless these days. Spymasters unable to do their job properly. LF's little monologue came off more nonsensical than anything.

I'm enjoying the show generally speaking but it isn't the same anymore. Everything is so fast-paced and streamlined and there are some annoyances and Cersei and Euron are unconvincingly powerful these days- to be a valid threat for plot purposes. The more I think about it, I'm enjoying the show because of the payoffs, approaching endgame and overall spectacle, not necessarily the writing itself. As the episodes go on, I imagine it will feel even more like a checklist, fair enough though, they have a lot of loose ends to tie up. Highgarden and Dorne effectively concluded in 4 episodes. If the books ever get finished, I'll read the rest of them, I'll be interested in seeing how GRRM ties up his plot.
If there are incoming inconsistencies and plot contrivances, I'll probably let them slide- assuming they aren't unforgivably stupid.


I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I actually think the world has been developed so carefully as a grounded reality in order to earn those supernatural payoffs. We've seen this periodically throughout the story. And in every season. Like the end of Season 4, when you suddenly have a child of the forest shooting magic fireballs. It works and is mindblowing because it was earned.

I messed up the quotes but whatever. I suppose what I was getting at with that post is that was less supernatural and more motivation based. We're supposed to get a reason for the WW's actions, there's supposed to be a good reason for them being all spooky and murdery yet we have zero evidence for that. I imagine Bran will figure all that out now. Right now, they are a mindless true evil (like in Trad fantasy). Works for the CC metaphor as climate change is merely a consequence with underlying agenda (no matter what some tinfoil theorists think).

Not to brag, but I was on it 4 years ago:
I wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.
Fun fact, that was the first time anyone ever had that theory.

I gotta be honest, I would be pretty surprised if that was the first time someone's had that theory.
I did a quick search and something like that was vaguely mentioned in a NYT review way back but perhaps that was a more general comment on the Westerosi climate. There was a fairly specific mention on reddit around the same time as you. I bet an insightful/prescient book fan probably had the thought back in the 90s.
Unless you were joking and I got whooshed real bad.

I can be pretty anti-parable/anti-didacticism at times (because the execution is often preachy/bad) but this is the sort of situation where I support this kind of thing.

EDIT:

Here's a really nice one from 2012.
https://lostandinventedecologies.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/guest-blogger-daniel-meyers-song-of-ice.html

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #506 on: August 02, 2017, 12:17:57 AM »
+1
I was definitely trying to be funny there. Hopefully people don't think I'm that big of a jerk that I would begin a self-aggrandizing statement with "fun fact..."

Agree about Dany. Her expectation was that Jon was coming to bend the knee. He did not warn her about any dragonglass request or any desire to keep the North. Daenerys was caught off-guard by him. If he has something of real consequence to offer her in the war, I'm sure she'd be happy to work out a sovereign partnership, as she was with the Iron Islands. Currently, she's simply giving him dragonglass (and labor!) and getting nothing in return. Further in Dany's defense, she was intrigued by the knife-in-the-heart thing, and she really started warming up to him by the end of the episode.

I heard this today and agree with it: Tyrion is great at diplomacy but horrible at war tactics. Maybe Davos (and Jorah?) can offer better advice.

To your complaints... D&D signed on to produce an adaptation, not fan fiction based on a GRRM outline, so all things considered I think it's going quite well. I am so in on the show that nothing has really broken the spell since the beginning of last season.

I have to be careful what I read and listen to right now, because GoT is in the prime nitpicking zone as it begins to wrap up. People will continue to get very upset when each thing is not fully explained. Boatbuilding aside (that really was impossible), I think this is a ridiculous distraction. Can the viewer not use his or her imagination to fill in the blanks? Do fans really want the show to spend its valuable time shoving exposition in their face? The faster the plot unfolds, the more things there are to explain... and I don't think people realize they don't actually want that.
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Kal

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #507 on: August 06, 2017, 08:20:49 PM »
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HOLY SHIT  :bravo:

My blood is pumping. I need to see all of that that again right away...

KJ

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #508 on: August 06, 2017, 09:34:01 PM »
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That was intense. :shock:

I loved that Arya scene. In a real fight - it would be over in seconds!

Oh, and that last scene... omg, I had NO IDEA what would happen. All of the unpredictable shit in past episodes make you really sit on the edge of the seat and feel like anything could happen in these kind of scenes. That's what make this show so much more intense than anything else.

Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #509 on: August 06, 2017, 09:59:48 PM »
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Yes, what a wonderful episode.


SPOILS S07E04

The Stark Girls reunion was great, I'm glad Arya lowered her faceless guard and embraced Sansa.

Bran keeps his cold demeanor (I feel for poor Meera), it kind of makes sense the way he is now, just one thing again, couldn't he mentioned that LF betrayed his father? Maybe he still has an important part to play in all this, Bran saying to LF chaos is ladder was really something, Baelish has to know now he can't fuck with them, will see.

Then it came Daenerys vs the Lannisters, that was tense I feared for pretty much everyone except Dany, at some point I thought Jaime was done but he has to be alive right? If so, he better be captured because there's no where to go. Looks like Drogon will make it but he took a big hit.

 

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