XIXAX Film Forum

The Director's Chair => Paul Thomas Anderson => Topic started by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:30:22 AM

Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:30:22 AM
ive been thinking about this a lot

people are always talking about god and hollywood and how the film industry mocks the concept of god


But Magnolia is a very pro god movie

what i mean is , in that world God exists

im not into religen in anyway , but i always want to think that a god exsists

a lot of film snobs pride themselves on the fact that they are too cool to think that god exsists

but here is fucking paul thomas anderson and he makes this masterpiece and well he puts this whole god thing in the ending the 82


and in such way, he didnt hit us over the head with some phoney bullshit preachy mesage , we dont even know what his view on god is but the film leads us to to think whatever it is , im sure its interesting

at least he didnt pick a trendy god , like buddah

pulp fiction too, thats a very pro god movie

but if you ask some hard core relgiouce fanatic , they would turn there noses up at both films

and the flip side to that is , snobby atheists

who never really bring much of a debate to the table

anyways im all over the place here, but we should talk about the signifigance of god in this movie and how some of us feel about it

i dig it, because it gives the film a cool layer that is missing in other movies, since most films never deal with god in this way
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 01, 2003, 04:32:52 AM
i'm busy doin sumthin else but i will for now just say that i agree with everything u've said.

bbl
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:36:14 AM
im high, you can tell so i am in deep thinkin mode

but i love how he deals with the issue of a god

it gives him so much more depth then just saying

" I dont beilve in god, thats just so lame"

me i dunno i want there to be a god, but since im a member of modren day society what with science and all

i lose faith

but this film brings something new to the table that a lot of other people couldnt bring
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 11:15:35 AM
**spoilers for magnolia** (just in case)

i dont believe in god, but ill sometimes use similar symbolism in a story or script of mine just because of what it represents (in the case of magnolia, the apocalypse).  but of course not in the way where it would happen literally because of a god and as depicted in the bible, because if you dont believe in god then you consider the bible a work of fiction, therefore you can use its symbols just like you would quote or reference anything else.

for example, i can make some kind of reference to a scientist working on something hes calling CRM- 114, and that would just be a reference to clockwork orange and what it represents.

and in the case of magnolia, it might of just been clever foreshadowing. using the bible to hint at what will happen in the end, which is not necessarily the work of a god, but i think weve all read the scientific "tornado" explanation thing for the frog rain.
Title: God
Post by: SHAFTR on June 01, 2003, 11:30:40 AM
Quote

but i think weve all read the scientific "tornado" explanation thing for the frog rain.


I haven't, could someone fill me in?
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 11:35:42 AM
could be a tornando, could be something else
http://thai-d.com/movie-english/magnolia/s_i_sit_writing_this_week.htm
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 11:50:25 AM
uhh i dont think that was what he was getting at

it was a clear cut case of a higher pure soul passing judgement

a tornado ??

I
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 01, 2003, 12:00:26 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan


it was a clear cut case of a higher pure soul passing judgement


Yeesh, I cannot stand that interpretation of Anderson's films. If there is a god, whatever it is has neglected to judge the people in this world who really need it. As you probably know, Santa, Freud via Norman O. Brown has plenty to say about our chronic human need for "purity."

I'm an agnostic. Might be nice if there were a god, but I'm too busy dealing with things at hand to waste too much energy pondering it.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 01, 2003, 12:30:17 PM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
because if you dont believe in god then you consider the bible a work of fiction,.

for the record, i know what ur meaning to say, but the way u've said it implies that u dont' know what ur talking about.

OBviously jesus lived, that's a historical fact like the existance of mohammed. the matter of faith, or religious dellusion as u would like to think it, lies in the belief that these ppl were prophets/messengers of God.

it's just plain scientific ignorance to say that at least sum of the "characters" and events in many religions weren't real. and the main problem when dealing with the issue of God is the inconsistency of education and extent of thought ppl hav put into the subject, usually stemming from their upbringing.

that's where the discussion about God or a supreme being always falls flat. ideally, a scientifically inclined person with knowledge of the history and nature of the world's religions arguing with a scientifically knowledgable person with strong faith would be the most stimulating model for theological discussion. a basic mulder and scully.

what would then transpire is a progressively refined definition of what it means to believe in a higher power. inevitably delving into the topics of an afterlife, the soul, good and evil, what makes us human, evolution, the beginnings of the universe. what they would discover, assuming they are not egocentric, is that the reverence a quantum physicist holds for the eternal beauty in the atomic/theoretical (inasmuch as it is reactionary and invisible) structure of the universe is much the same as the core faith a true "believer" holds in the power within us and more importantly beyond us, throughout time.

but alas, there must be a winner. the internet is a divisive mirror, afterall.
Title: Re: God
Post by: Sleuth on June 01, 2003, 12:30:27 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan


at least he didnt pick a trendy god , like buddah



And what if that's what he believed and decided to use it?
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 12:42:19 PM
Letteri, the film's visual effects supervisor had this to say: "Paul wanted something uncommon-not just an earthquake or tornado-because this wasn't meant to be a disaster per se. He could have done a hailstorm and hit all the
beats, but he wanted something both real and unreal."

and yeah, p, youre right. i just assumed people would understand what i meant without saying everything youve just said. im terribly lazy.
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 01, 2003, 01:45:25 PM
I don't like to think of the frogs as a clear-cut God intervening thing. It's just something that is out of everyone's control: whether it's divine or scientific makes little difference... It's completely surreal, and yet "it did happen". The bible references - which Paul only became aware of after writing the script, as we all know - go some way towards explaining the meaning of the event in relation to the characters (the punishment for the sins of man), but they are certainly not the be-all and end-all in my opinion.

However, Santa I do agree with you that it's a great  thing that someone with this philosophy (that there are things that are completely out of our control - call them spiritual if you like - are sometimes at work in the world, affecting our lives), has made a film in a culture in which many artists do purport a - potentially - arrogant atheism, of a faith only in the self - in mankind. Or a faith in the inhumanity of man. Not that these are necessarily bad points of view, just that they are more prevalent. I side with the philosophy of the film more, which is I think - rather than being religious - more humanistic.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 02:26:57 PM
read pubricks post then read cecils and you tell me

which person is saying something

cecil is a nice guy, but come the fuck on

just a cliche of a angry young disturbed artist

fucking magnolia is much deeper then that, and more is going on then what you think

i know troubles some that they want to tell people they love a film, that so goes against what they think, they think

thats why that fucking movie so great, it dares to be so not what people want it to be

a fucking huricane ??
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 01, 2003, 02:37:09 PM
Hey, you started the thread by saying "We should talk about how some of us feel about this"... You can't just dismiss someone's point of view flat out if we're supposed to be having a discussion - where's the point in that? If you're not going to consider other points of view you might as well have just made the thread, made your statement and then just had it locked to forever stand as fact.

I think you have an interesting take on it. Others have interesting takes on it - let's discuss them.
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 03:13:27 PM
i hope you dont think i hate magnolia. anyway, what does my lack of faith in a god(s) have anything to do with being angry or disturbed?

maybe i just didnt explain myself very well. or are you still high?  :lol:
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 03:14:30 PM
From the back of the DVD:

Quote
"magnolia is a mosaic of American life woven through a series of comic and poignant vignettes. Through a collusion of coincidence, chance, human action, shared media, past history and divine intervention, nine people will weave and warp through eachother's lives on a day that builds to an unforgettable climax. Some will seek forgiveness, others escape. Some will mend frayed bonds, others will be exposed."


Now I'm not saying PTA necessarily wrote that, but I'm sure he approved it, so, I don't know, I know he started with the Charles Fort thing in his mind, but did he necessarily end with it there? Probably.
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 01, 2003, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: Jon
From the back of the DVD:

Quote
"magnolia is a mosaic of American life woven through a series of comic and poignant vignettes. Through a collusion of coincidence, chance, human action, shared media, past history and divine intervention, nine people will weave and warp through eachother's lives on a day that builds to an unforgettable climax. Some will seek forgiveness, others escape. Some will mend frayed bonds, others will be exposed."


Now I'm not saying PTA necessarily wrote that, but I'm sure he approved it, so, I don't know, I know he started with the Charles Fort thing in his mind, but did he necessarily end with it there? Probably.


Apparently, Henry Gibson was the one who mentioned the biblical connection to the rain of frogs; otherwise, he (as embarrassed as he was to admit it) didn't have any idea when he actually wrote it. This is according to PTA.
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 03:19:36 PM
what you call divine intervention, i call a freak occurence. whether im playing blind man or not is yet to be seen.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 03:24:31 PM
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: Jon
From the back of the DVD:

Quote
"magnolia is a mosaic of American life woven through a series of comic and poignant vignettes. Through a collusion of coincidence, chance, human action, shared media, past history and divine intervention, nine people will weave and warp through eachother's lives on a day that builds to an unforgettable climax. Some will seek forgiveness, others escape. Some will mend frayed bonds, others will be exposed."


Now I'm not saying PTA necessarily wrote that, but I'm sure he approved it, so, I don't know, I know he started with the Charles Fort thing in his mind, but did he necessarily end with it there? Probably.


Apparently, Henry Gibson was the one who mentioned the biblical connection to the rain of frogs; otherwise, he (as embarrassed as he was to admit it) didn't have any idea when he actually wrote it. This is according to PTA.


 :roll:  yeah i guess he thought that the ending had nothing to do with god passing judgement , till henry gibson spoke up

i think he didnt know the exact part of the bible, the 8 2 whatever

but that does not mean anything at all
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 01, 2003, 03:25:55 PM
Quote from: children with angels
I side with the philosophy of the film more, which is I think - rather than being religious - more humanistic.


That sums it up perfectly.

I insist on differentiating myself from atheists by pointing out that I'm agnostic (many people are very confused about these terms and think they're synonymous). I'm not out to dissuade anyone from believing in god. I don't know if there is one or isn't one. As important as the mythology of all religions are to our understanding of the human race, I don't feel I can be expected to embrace just one, so it's safe to say I'll probably never subscribe to one religious system of belief or any organized religion. But there are people within organized religions who are amazingly intelligent and humanistic and have a lot of important insights. I don't deprive myself of those (thank you, Simone Weil). I simply remain unconvinced that there definitely is or definitely is not a god, and I'm not particularly tortured by that. I'm not mystical for the most part, because for myself, I find mysticism a distraction from the immediate goods and bads of life. But I can appreciate other people's embrace of it. My life just hasn't led me in that direction; quite the opposite.
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 01, 2003, 03:30:17 PM
And the term "Divine intervention" is a very loose one - it can just mean anything unplanned, something outside the expected. Like on an insurance claim, "Act of God": it doesn't necessarily mean they believe God is resposible - it's just a phrase.

There is something going on other than the purely physical in Magnolia, but for me the beauty lies in the ambiguity of it. The co-incidences are not just "one of those things", but what are they? And are the frogs any different than the things that we get told about at the beginning - just on a bigger scale...
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 03:33:26 PM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
i hope you dont think i hate magnolia. anyway, what does my lack of faith in a god(s) have anything to do with being angry or disturbed?

maybe i just didnt explain myself very well. or are you still high?  :lol:


no im sober now, thank you

i get like a few hours sleep here and there

i just think that i am happy that some people think outside the box and do things they are not meant to do

like coolness be damned

magnolia is a product of that , but of course people will want to take away what makes it special and turn it into something so fucking shallow and heartless, because the truth does not fit their social agenda

i for one hate orginazied reilgan , but yet something in me wants to feel it

look at bob dylan, the man is wow what can i say about him, and at one point he found god and it took over his life

that i find fasignating, i want to know everything that happened to him, because he is not a quote un quote dumb guy, he is one our most gifted poets ever, and so i do not think his love of jesus was a shallow thing

i bet it was a fasignating story

part of me wishs i could feel that passion for god, but i cant

so thats why i crave hearing people i respect tell me why they do, isnt that more interesting then some goth rich kid from the suburbs who thinks god is not cool

back to you, your a nice guy but come on

that whole angry dark guy thing is a crock, its boring

but im trying not to pass judgement
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 01, 2003, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: children with angels
And are the frogs any different than the things that we get told about at the beginning - just on a bigger scale...


Maybe. But I think, should you ask PTA if he meant it as "god passing judgment," you would probably get a very befuddled response. That would just ruin any dignity the film had. Luckily, I see nothing in the film to point to that at all. I think the point is just that sometimes freak occurrence can actually go the way of good, rather than just the way of wreaking misfortune (as in the three tales at the beginning).
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 03:38:43 PM
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: children with angels
And are the frogs any different than the things that we get told about at the beginning - just on a bigger scale...


Maybe. But I think, should you ask PTA if he meant it as "god passing judgment," you would probably get a very befuddled response.).


no that would be your responce and you will never write anything quite as great

its not all about the facts, its sometimes more important to have feelings

but only if you have feelings worth expressing
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 03:48:54 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

back to you, your a nice guy but come on

that whole angry dark guy thing is a crock, its boring


if you think im angry and dark (or denies the existence of god to be cool) based on my posts then thats youre problem, not mine. hey, when i say stuff like
Quote from: cecil b. demented
you tell me. the last time he farted he called it "the human race."

im not trying to be depressed and dark. its just funny to me. if you think its a depressed and dark comment, thats your problem, not mine. i think its quite funny.

plus, i dont know if you were aiming that particular comment at me, but im  not a rich goth suburban kid. i live in montreal, we dont have alot of money, and if you saw my pic in the xixax community thread youll see i wear no makeup and do not contort my face to look "dark." anyway, im just saying, cause this would be the second time someone thinks im a rich suburban kid and thats kinda funny (and weird). i wonder what the fuck im doing wrong.
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 03:49:38 PM
I am christian (not organized religion, just believe in God) sometimes I do look at the end as God intervening. I mean, if I really think about it, (and I may have said this before) those characters were stuck. Nothing was going to change, and since I'm an optimist, I feel like maybe God was giving a little push.

(And since it's a film about fathers, supposing God is a man or whatever, wouldn't he be a good father? Okay, I'm really reaching here, forget I said it.)

It's cliche, but still, if I do happen to wonder "why" about this film, that's what I end up thinking.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 03:57:57 PM
OK someone answer me this, why did he fill his film with 8's and 2's

and why did he do it in such a subversive fashion

like he was trying to slip it in

all i know is the guy who wrote that film would rather hear bob dylan talk about why he found jesus, then hear godardian talk about why he is a agnostic

who disagrees wit me on this last fact ?
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 03:59:45 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
OK someone answer me this, why did he fill his film with 8's and 2's


Quote from: cecil b. demented
and in the case of magnolia, it might of just been clever foreshadowing.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:00:24 PM
Quote from: Jon
I am christian (not organized religion, just believe in God) sometimes I do look at the end as God intervening. I mean, if I really think about it, (and I may have said this before) those characters were stuck. Nothing was going to change, and since I'm an optimist, I feel like maybe God was giving a little push.

(And since it's a film about fathers, supposing God is a man or whatever, wouldn't he be a good father? Okay, I'm really reaching here, forget I said it.)

It's cliche, but still, if I do happen to wonder "why" about this film, that's what I end up thinking.


see this is what i am saying, peopel should be more honest like this guy and speak up

films could do important things, and magnolia could make you a better person for having seen it

and not because you found a new way to frame a fucking dolly shot
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:01:12 PM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
OK someone answer me this, why did he fill his film with 8's and 2's


Quote from: cecil b. demented
and in the case of magnolia, it might of just been clever foreshadowing.

what the fuck does that mean ??

thats not a answer
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 04:02:44 PM
so what youre saying is to be honest, you must say that god had something to do with the ending? sorry, i thought we all had different opinions
Title: God
Post by: ono on June 01, 2003, 04:02:47 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
OK someone answer me this, why did he fill his film with 8's and 2's

and why did he do it in such a subversive fashion

like he was trying to slip it in

all i know is the guy who wrote that film would rather hear bob dylan talk about why he found jesus, then hear godardian talk about why he is a agnostic

who disagrees wit me on this last fact ?

He filled his film with 8s and 2s because he found out about the Biblical connection during production, and wanted to work it in the film.  That's why you see audience members of WDKK? holding up signs saying Exodus 8:2.
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 04:05:26 PM
from gregs site, a q&a with pta:

Q: The film has obvious biblical overtones, and I noticed in at least a few scenes signs embossed with "Exodus 8:2."

A: Yeah, there's more than that. There's many, many more. I bet you could probably spot a hundred. Exodus 8:2 (describes) the plague of frogs in the Bible. The funny thing is, my reasons for using the plague of frogs aren't exactly biblical. I didn't even know it was in the Bible until after I wrote the script. The rain of frogs is something that really happens. Did you know that? It's a true thing.

Q: So did you go back and include the beacons of Exodus 8:2?

A: No. Right after I got done writing the script I found out it was in the Bible. So then I became very interested in looking at the Bible and figuring out what it meant there. I just thought it was a fun directorial, bored-on-the-set thing to do, to plant 8:2s all over the place.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:05:57 PM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
what you call divine intervention, i call a freak occurence. whether im playing blind man or not is yet to be seen.


your quoteing pulp fiction

and in the end of that film, jules was right and vincent was wrong

and he paid the price for it

all im saying is these great writters are giving us more to think about then people like jessica simpson who go on tv and say they love jesus because its good for their image

jessica simpson is no differnt then cecil

she says loves god because its good for her image, cecil does not think god exists because its good for his image

but just because of jessica simpson, we shouldnt dis credit people like bob dylan or maybe qt and pta
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
jessica simpson is no differnt then cecil

she says loves god because its good for her image, cecil does not think god exists because its god for his image


im sorry, cbrad. but THIS is waaaay funnier than your xixax adventures
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: Onomatopoeia
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
OK someone answer me this, why did he fill his film with 8's and 2's

and why did he do it in such a subversive fashion

like he was trying to slip it in

all i know is the guy who wrote that film would rather hear bob dylan talk about why he found jesus, then hear godardian talk about why he is a agnostic

who disagrees wit me on this last fact ?

He filled his film with 8s and 2s because he found out about the Biblical connection during production, and wanted to work it in the film.  That's why you see audience members of WDKK? holding up signs saying Exodus 8:2.


he thought it was cool that the bible had a thing  in it that reflected what he was trying to get across

he would not have put the 8 and 2's in other wise

out of fear that his film would misunderstood

if i wrote something that had nothing to do with a quote from somewhere

i would just dissmiss it as a coincidence

what he did was wrap the 8 and 2's around the film like a fucking quilt

he bathed the film in it

like a arab disco dancer baths himself in cologne

and i ask you could this all be a coincidence ???
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
jessica simpson is no differnt then cecil

she says loves god because its good for her image, cecil does not think god exists because its god for his image


im sorry, cbrad. but THIS is waaaay funnier than your xixax adventures


my typeing is fucked but point is valid

both of your opinions on god are shallow

you and jess
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 01, 2003, 04:16:30 PM
We ARE being honest and speaking up. This film deeply moves me - as I'm sure it moves everyone else posting here - I'm just trying to explain why. I've said what I think about it. It's ambiguous, for Christ's sake. I too am an agnostic who really wants to believe in God and at this point in my life just can't - I feel your pain, Santa. Magnolia however doesn't give a straight 'answer'. It gives hope certainly - that's what the ending is all about. I don't want to say that it doesn't matter whether it's God who sends the frogs, because that makes it sound smaller than it is: it DOES matter, but I think the point is WE DON'T KNOW. I think the film in this way is very much a film for agnostics: this amazing thing happens: no one in the movie can believe it, they've lost faith. Except Stanley ("This happens. This is something that happens"): he's a child, and innocent, and, no: it is not dangerous to confuse with angels. It may be a confusion - angels may not exist, God may not exist, frogs may not come from Him, we don't know. It's a film about the hope, the faith in retaining innocence through the sins of man. Whether or not this innocence is also ignorance is a key theme, and a question that I think is raised, but not answered, in the film. Magnolia doesn't know the answers but it comes out on the side of hope anyway because it reatains some innocence. That's what the movie is about for me. That was kind of muddled - sorry. Hope I've communicated okay though.
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 04:18:34 PM
Quote
he thought it was cool that the bible had a thing  in it that reflected what he was trying to get across

he would not have put the 8 and 2's in other wise

out of fear that his film would misunderstood


I don't think he would have feared that.

Quote
if i wrote something that had nothing to do with a quote from somewhere

i would just dissmiss it as a coincidence


You aren't PTA, though, and you didn't say "I just thought it was a fun directorial, bored-on-the-set thing to do, to plant 8:2s all over the place."

Quote
what he did was wrap the 8 and 2's around the film like a fucking quilt

he bathed the film in it

like a arab disco dancer baths himself in cologne


He also wrapped it with chance, coincidence, etc; the 82's just give it yet another dimension.

Quote
and i ask you could this all be a coincidence ???


Yes. Things like this happen all the time.
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 04:23:10 PM
yes, you are 100% right, santa.

anyway, have you heard the requiem for a dream commentary, where aronofsky explains that they put many references to california in the script to make their going there more believable to the audience?
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:25:54 PM
children i think your  fine, and i dunno if you got this from what i was expressing

but im a agnostic too, but ya know i think there is more here then some people want to except

some people who hate the film call the ending a cop out

i dont think so

and i do not think the 8 and 2's was a ironic thing, or just something put in for fun

he wouldnt do that, because it would short change his message if his message was something other then what was being expressed in that part of the bible

i think he did not know it was in the bible, and as soon as he found out it was he was giddy

and he threw those in the film for a reason

and that alone is my point that maybe god is not all bad, just because a lot of assholes like him does not mean its his fault

maybe jesus was a cool dude

and again i have to say when a rock star find jesus he is called a weirdo and yet when he finds Buddah he is called deep and introspective

why is that ? is that not wrong ?

and for pta to throw in a pro god message to his film, knowing how un cool it would look in front of some people
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:28:29 PM
none of us fucking know for sure anything except this

so far this is the best magnolia disscusion this group has had

and that is kind of cool
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
some people who hate the film call the ending a cop out

i dont think so


But we all (well, a good amount of us, and us here talking to you) love it. I don't think any of us think it's a cop out.

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
and i do not think the 8 and 2's was a ironic thing, or just something put in for fun

he wouldnt do that, because it would short change his message if his message was something other then what was being expressed in that part of the bible


There were many messages.

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
and he threw those in the film for a reason


Of course he did.

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
and for pta to throw in a pro god message to his film, knowing how un cool it would look in front of some people


How do you know he even thought once about it? It's His Film, that's what he likes, to put little things in there---I feel like we're repeating ourselves...
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:34:49 PM
well jon i do remember sticking up for your point of view

still do

and i never said anyone here thinks its a cop out, but somepeople who saw it did say that

and by the way if he did mean the film to have this big god thing to it, he would not admit it out right

because the way he filmed it, it was meant to be subversive and ambiguis

other wise he would of done it in a tounge  in cheek ironic way

again all i ever said was " Maybe"

and thats the best part about it.
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 01, 2003, 04:37:49 PM
Santa, you have such a paranoia about being a cliche. Everyone who's opinion you disagree with is trying to look cool or help their image in some way... That's a sad and cynical way to look at life. I agree: you are not a cliche - I'm still trying to work you out, and yet I'm becoming able to predict exactly what your opinion will be on subjects: it will be to disregard anyone who opposes you, and disregard them as being a pretender. I don't think anyone here is trying to help their image or look cool: this is sincerely what people believe - you just have to listen to them, hear them out at least: or else intolerance is going to become your cliche.
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 04:38:36 PM
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, thanks for "standing up for my point of view", but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with you on every one of your opinions, while I have my christian leanings, I'm fine if other people don't.

Just because cecil's an atheist, all it means is he sees the film differently.

(So us christians should revel in the fact that we know so much more than him.)

:twisted:
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 04:46:08 PM
im not a christian nor was i born one

im not even sure god exists

but i know this, that this film is deeper then a lot of the things i have heard people say about it

we could move right past the god thing and talk about the other issues it tackles

like tom cruise and his self made man thing crumbiling right before his eyes

but that is another topic

and i do not agree with everything you have said, i just respect your right to say them

and my point is that your opinion is considered almost radical in this setting

amungst somepeople just saying that maybe god had a reason or whatever, would make you look like a douchebag in their eyes
Title: Re: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 01, 2003, 04:50:31 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
ive been thinking about this a lot

people are always talking about god and hollywood and how the film industry mocks the concept of god


But Magnolia is a very pro god movie

what i mean is , in that world God exists

im not into religen in anyway , but i always want to think that a god exsists

a lot of film snobs pride themselves on the fact that they are too cool to think that god exsists

but here is fucking paul thomas anderson and he makes this masterpiece and well he puts this whole god thing in the ending the 82


and in such way, he didnt hit us over the head with some phoney bullshit preachy mesage , we dont even know what his view on god is but the film leads us to to think whatever it is , im sure its interesting

at least he didnt pick a trendy god , like buddah

pulp fiction too, thats a very pro god movie

but if you ask some hard core relgiouce fanatic , they would turn there noses up at both films

and the flip side to that is , snobby atheists

who never really bring much of a debate to the table

anyways im all over the place here, but we should talk about the signifigance of god in this movie and how some of us feel about it

i dig it, because it gives the film a cool layer that is missing in other movies, since most films never deal with god in this way


I'm glad you say this. I've always told people from my church that Magnolia is the most Christian of contemporary films. Not so much for the frogs, but for the whole "know better" aspect of it, and especially Jim's "who should we forgive" bit. Pretty main points in Jesus' teachings. Now, some of those conservative folks who make up our congregation can't take the swearing, which I think is pretty weak, 'cause that's just turning a blind eye to what is around you. But those that go in with an open mind almost always come out loving the film. I can't say of course how much Paul meant to weave this into the story, and maybe I'm just looking for things I wanna see, but Magnolia makes me so happy on every level: cinematic entertainment, triumph of form/technique, and ultimately, transcendant theological ideas.

Oh, by the way, I just watched it for the first time in half a year, so I'm on a huge Magnolia high right now.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 05:01:03 PM
didnt kubrick go to his grave saying that HAL Was not related in any way to IBM

And should we also think that Lucy in the sky with diamonds , had nothin to do with acid

now do not jump a million steps and try and link these to paul not wearing shoes on the cover of abby road

some things are weirdo conspiracy nut things

but some things are the truth, and the creater would rather not spell it out opting instead to let the art speak for itself

i still dont think the 8 and the 2 was just for giggles

from a lesser film maker maybe, but nahhh

i could be wrong i could be write, i could be quoteing a public image limited song who knows

but thats why great art is Great

and speaking of great art , i refer to my post about art garfunkle..
Title: God
Post by: Sleuth on June 01, 2003, 05:14:18 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Quote from: Jon
I am christian (not organized religion, just believe in God) sometimes I do look at the end as God intervening. I mean, if I really think about it, (and I may have said this before) those characters were stuck. Nothing was going to change, and since I'm an optimist, I feel like maybe God was giving a little push.

(And since it's a film about fathers, supposing God is a man or whatever, wouldn't he be a good father? Okay, I'm really reaching here, forget I said it.)

It's cliche, but still, if I do happen to wonder "why" about this film, that's what I end up thinking.


see this is what i am saying, peopel should be more honest like this guy and speak up

films could do important things, and magnolia could make you a better person for having seen it

and not because you found a new way to frame a fucking dolly shot


You aren't looking for honesty, you're fishing for people to agree with you
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 01, 2003, 05:21:56 PM
No, but he's right. Film can do important things, and Magnolia does make you a better person for seeing it. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't wanna make films.
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 05:25:06 PM
Maybe in 20 years all the new filmmakers will say Magnolia made them want to do film, just like Star Wars did to so many (from what I've read).

It'll probably be the Matrix, though.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 05:26:22 PM
Quote from: tremolosloth
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Quote from: Jon
I am christian (not organized religion, just believe in God) sometimes I do look at the end as God intervening. I mean, if I really think about it, (and I may have said this before) those characters were stuck. Nothing was going to change, and since I'm an optimist, I feel like maybe God was giving a little push.

(And since it's a film about fathers, supposing God is a man or whatever, wouldn't he be a good father? Okay, I'm really reaching here, forget I said it.)

It's cliche, but still, if I do happen to wonder "why" about this film, that's what I end up thinking.


see this is what i am saying, peopel should be more honest like this guy and speak up

films could do important things, and magnolia could make you a better person for having seen it

and not because you found a new way to frame a fucking dolly shot


You aren't looking for honesty, you're fishing for people to agree with you


trust me i dont want shit from you, and thats what i expect to get from you shit
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 01, 2003, 05:27:50 PM
I'm not too sure the next generation of filmmakers (hopefully us) will say Magnolia made them want to do films. I think they will say it was a yardstick of how good films can be. Me personally, the combination of Ghostbusters when I was a kid, and Reservoir Dogs when I was a teenager, made me want to make films. But Magnolia was like a life changing experience.
Title: Re: God
Post by: godardian on June 01, 2003, 05:30:45 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
Pretty main points in Jesus' teachings.


If those teachings are what's really driving someone's sensibility, then they should have no problem embracing the film (and they should be able to handle a lot more than swearing- Jesus ran with a pretty rough crowd and found the crimes of whores and thieves to be less than those committed by the hypocritical self-righteous in the name of their religion). I bet Mary Magdalene swore like a sailor.

But if the film is compatible with Jesus's teachings, then it couldn't be about "god judging." It's about redemption. It's about learning from mistakes. It's about slowing down and really looking at what makes us tick and how some of the things we do might be destructive. The frogs give people that chance for appraisal and contemplation; they stop everything and force everyone to take a new perspective and see what's really important and what they've let get out of control. It would be silly to ascribe the event one meaning, especially if it's supposedly god's judgment. I think that's an insult to the film.

And I'm not just saying that to be cool.  :roll: Shit, who cares about that?? I'm too old.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 05:31:09 PM
your right about the matrix

but hopefully magnolia will stand as a example of what is a brave and well done film from a guy who could of chocked after his big break through

and if any of us get final cut, we should all be so lucky to make a film this great

magnolia good heavens gate bad

if you are gonna just fucking go for it and say fuck it i dont care if this makes 100 million, then make it something that you care about

if you cant please the world just please yourself

and the people who get it, will get it on your terms
Title: God
Post by: Sleuth on June 01, 2003, 05:33:13 PM
Honestly, Santa, I don't care what you expect from me.  My honest opinion is that maybe PTA left it open ended for a reason, for good discussion, and when you aren't accepting any other view besides God, it doesn't look right
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 01, 2003, 05:36:27 PM
Isn't it one of those things that they say, where the more you show things that You like (as opposed to a film like Anger Management or Bruce Almighty, made for "everyone"), the more it'll draw people in.

I know I fucked up the saying, but I think it's true, and I'm leaving this conversation for the time being, see ya guys later.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 05:37:35 PM
Quote from: tremolosloth
Honestly, Santa, I don't care what you expect from me.  My honest opinion is that maybe PTA left it open ended for a reason, for good discussion, and when you aren't accepting any other view besides God, it doesn't look right


i never said " fuck you your wrong"

i did however think that part about the huricane was kind of a cop out

i heard people say that before, and a lot of these guys are just saying that because its the only way they can admit to enjoying magnolia with out losing any cool points

not all but some people feel this way
Title: Re: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 01, 2003, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: SoNowThen
Pretty main points in Jesus' teachings.


If those teachings are what's really driving someone's sensibility, then they should have no problem embracing the film (and they should be able to handle a lot more than swearing- Jesus ran with a pretty rough crowd and found the crimes of whores and thieves to be less than those committed by the hypocritical self-righteous in the name of their religion). I bet Mary Magdalene swore like a sailor.

But if the film is compatible with Jesus's teachings, then it couldn't be about "god judging." It's about redemption. It's about learning from mistakes. It's about slowing down and really looking at what makes us tick and how some of the things we do might be destructive. The frogs give people that chance for appraisal and contemplation; they stop everything and force everyone to take a new perspective and see what's really important and what they've let get out of control. It would be silly to ascribe the event one meaning, especially if it's supposedly god's judgment. I think that's an insult to the film.

And I'm not just saying that to be cool.  :roll: Shit, who cares about that?? I'm too old.


Yep, you are right. And I do believe it's about redemption. But of course most of these characters ask for love and redemption. The only person who doesn't wanna make any necessary steps is Jimmy, and look what happens to him!!

Yeah, I wish they could handle more swearing. I as well swear like a sailor, and really have to watch my mouth in public. I'm not kidding, you should hear the horrible shit that comes out...
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 05:45:31 PM
thats my point , and pta came down on jimmy gator hard

he said some sins are not forgiveable, refering to jimmy and his outcome

i never said god was out to hurt the world , maybe he saw what was going on and he stepped in
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 06:00:18 PM
i dont think you necessarily have to "agree" with what a film is saying to enjoy it. like you said, pulp fiction has many religious undertones (but like godardian said about magnolia, its about redemption) and i love pulp fiction alot.
Title: God
Post by: The Silver Bullet on June 01, 2003, 06:18:48 PM
For someone who loves and has seen Magnolia a whole heap of times, the following question may seem evil, and sacreligious. But what does happen to Jimmy Gator, exactly? I was always under the impression that the exact moment he goes to shoot himself the frogs rain down, and prevent it from happening. Am I wrong?
Title: God
Post by: sphinx on June 01, 2003, 06:23:42 PM
Quote from: The Silver Bullet
For someone who loves and has seen Magnolia a whole heap of times, the following question may seem evil, and sacreligious. But what does happen to Jimmy Gator, exactly? I was always under the impression that the exact moment he goes to shoot himself the frogs rain down, and prevent it from happening. Am I wrong?


you suspect right

jimmy burns in his house, which brings up a theory that i have had for quite some time about a second edit of the film which was in theatres

there are several things i remember in the version in theatres that i see no sign of on the dvd:
- flames surrounding jimmy gator
- one frame before the frame makes impact with the cement, it's a cut to 'so now then', not just the hold on cruise's face

several others have confirmed that they saw those things too, but i haven't bothered taking it up with greg yet
Title: God
Post by: ono on June 01, 2003, 06:26:12 PM
Supposedly, the errant gunshot that hit the television starts a fire which traps Gator, killing him.  Or so I heard, though I forget where.
Title: God
Post by: The Silver Bullet on June 01, 2003, 06:27:47 PM
Burning in Hell, indeed. Letting him kill himself would be too easy.

Thanks Sphinxy.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 01, 2003, 06:33:25 PM
kind of goes back to my point about todd solondz

pta dealt with pedophilia by having the guy burn and die in the end

which he had coming to him

where as todd said " Awww how sad for poor bill, society just does not understand he has a illness"
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 01, 2003, 09:05:05 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
kind of goes back to my point about todd solondz

nice way to try to make this thread go longer than it has to.

ther has been very little goin on here other than "this is what i believe and that's what u believe and that's that".

i'm not surprised to see no one read what i wrote, cept maybe u, and cecil who thought it was all a response to his one sentence. u shoulda called this sumthin else, cos God is the second most misleading thread title ever.

do u see an end to the discussion? do u care if there is one? we don't need another donnie darko/homo thread. at least u ppl knew more about homos than ur displaying about spiritual matters.
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 01, 2003, 09:37:37 PM
Quote from: P
at least u ppl knew more about homos than ur displaying about spiritual matters.


so, please tell us what we need to know
Title: God
Post by: Sleuth on June 01, 2003, 09:46:54 PM
This thread is out of control and I like it
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 01, 2003, 09:48:55 PM
Quote from: P
ideally, a scientifically inclined person with knowledge of the history and nature of the world's religions arguing with a scientifically knowledgable person with strong faith would be the most stimulating model for theological discussion. a basic mulder and scully.

what would then transpire is a progressively refined definition of what it means to believe in a higher power. inevitably delving into the topics of an afterlife, the soul, good and evil, what makes us human, evolution, the beginnings of the universe. what they would discover, assuming they are not egocentric, is that the reverence a quantum physicist holds for the eternal beauty in the atomic/theoretical (inasmuch as it is reactionary and invisible) structure of the universe is much the same as the core faith a true "believer" holds in the power within us and more importantly beyond us, throughout time.


That would be ideal. Unfortunately, though, passion seems to get in the way of reason with these discussions. That's part of why I'm agnostic; I can really relate to why you would believe in god, and why you wouldn't, and why you wouldn't even if you really wanted to. I'm very interested in that kind of discussion, rare as it is. I wasn't a big X-Files fan, but I always really appreciated that aspect.

And of course the bible is an invaluable historical, philosophical, and dramatic document that does, indeed, contain many an actual person and occurrence (the ratio of fact to fiction is a fascinating and always ongoing theological debate, how much of it is allegorical, etc.). Our culture would not be recognizable to us without its influence, good and bad. I have nothing against the bible itself; my only quibble is with those who selectively choose the parts of this vast, complicated, tone-shifting, frequently self-contradictory document that support their own petty tendencies to judgment and self-righteousness.


The eye of this particular storm being appreciated, I have to reiterate again what I have said before about the very marked distinction between the characters of Bill Maplewood in Happiness and Jimmy Gator. Bill wants to change; he's desperate to. The reason I felt for him as a character is because he really knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was ready to confess it... and was completely dissuaded by the callousness of the people whom he should've been able to expect help from.

Jimmy Gator, on the other hand, is judged in the end on his unwillingness to even admit he ever did anything wrong; he pretends not to know why his daughter won't talk to him. While the other characters are facing their messes and mistakes head on, he's hiding behind a lie which, as it it turns out, only he believes in (Claudia and her mother are no longer willing to be complicit in his pretense).

He and Bill Maplewood are EXTREMELY different characters. They can't really be held up as parallels of the same thing, as they have been in some posts here, unless you're just diminishing them and boiling them down in your mind to fit your own prefabricated, black-and-white worldview, where people only fall into "good" and "evil" categories. In which case I can't see how you'd get any enjoyment out of either of those films in the first place.
Title: God
Post by: Pozer on June 01, 2003, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: P
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
kind of goes back to my point about todd solondz

nice way to try to make this thread go longer than it has to.

ther has been very little goin on here other than "this is what i believe and that's what u believe and that's that".

i'm not surprised to see no one read what i wrote, cept maybe u, and cecil who thought it was all a response to his one sentence. u shoulda called this sumthin else, cos God is the second most misleading thread title ever.

do u see an end to the discussion? do u care if there is one? we don't need another donnie darko/homo thread. at least u ppl knew more about homos than ur displaying about spiritual matters.


whats the point of having discussions about anything then? I know you're the negative/witty guy, but if you dont like the thread, shouldn't you just ignore it and not worry about it?
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 02, 2003, 05:46:51 AM
Quote from: poser
whats the point of having discussions about anything then? I know you're the negative/witty guy, but if you dont like the thread, shouldn't you just ignore it and not worry about it?

yeah i didn't mean to sound like a diss to Santa.. long live this thread.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 02:28:27 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

i heard people say that before, and a lot of these guys are just saying that because its the only way they can admit to enjoying magnolia with out losing any cool points


Magnolia does not require the existence of God in order for it to be successful rhetorically or on a narrative level.

Now shut up.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 02, 2003, 02:58:41 PM
mesh what your saying does not mean anything, sure it does not need it

but maybe the added depth makes it better

i always like it when things have a lot of differnt layers

as long as the layers are not shallow

i started this whole thing saying how cool it is for a modern film maker to do something that is so outside the box

saying god sucks is not a radical concept anymore, its rather played out


this remind me of something, lee scratch perry he is this mad scientist music producer who makes brilliant music and he is insane, he worked with bob marley and the clash and the beastie boys

well anyways he was gonna produce this album by this band called " Bad attitude" but  he insisted they change their name to " good attitude" or he would not work with them

my point is everyone is obsessed with negativity and being bad is cool, thats why it was so funny and great that he didnt like their name

i mean its funny because its just a funny idea that he would tell them that, i wish could see the look on there face

and its cool, because i like the idea behind it , what he was thinking

he doesnt have to win anyone over by being negitive to look cool, he allready is cool

back to my point about god, its been cool for so long to diss god that its become cool now to embrace him

as long as its done in a neat way and not in some cheesy fashion, hence my jessica simpson analagy
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 03:04:48 PM
Mesh said: "Magnolia does not require the existence of God in order for it to be successful rhetorically or on a narrative level.

Now shut up."

Certainly it doesn't, but without it you'd be missing out on the whole transcendental spiritual experience. That's the most fun part for me.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 03:10:01 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
mesh what your saying does not mean anything, sure it does not need it

but maybe the added depth makes it better

i always like it when things have a lot of differnt layers

as long as the layers are not shallow

i started this whole thing saying how cool it is for a modern film maker to do something that is so outside the box

saying god sucks is not a radical concept anymore, its rather played out


this remind me of something, lee scratch perry he is this mad scientist music producer who makes brilliant music and he is insane, he worked with bob marley and the clash and the beastie boys

well anyways he was gonna produce this album by this band called " Bad attitude" but  he insisted they change their name to " good attitude" or he would not work with them

my point is everyone is obsessed with negativity and being bad is cool, thats why it was so funny and great that he didnt like their name

i mean its funny because its just a funny idea that he would tell them that, i wish could see the look on there face

and its cool, because i like the idea behind it , what he was thinking

he doesnt have to win anyone over by being negitive to look cool, he allready is cool

back to my point about god, its been cool for so long to diss god that its become cool now to embrace him

as long as its done in a neat way and not in some cheesy fashion, hence my jessica simpson analagy


I like your style, man. This is well said.

Also, I believe we can all at least agree on one thing: Jessica Simpson's rack is truly a gift from God. Can I get an amen?
Title: God
Post by: aclockworkjj on June 02, 2003, 03:19:30 PM
I think first you need to define god.....I mean, sure it's easy to assume Magnolia was referring to a Christan god (hence Exodus 8:2)....but how many different ideas are there about that?...or at least put god into a generic sense....like:
God is:
1. All knowing
2. All powerful
3. All good
Sure, you can argue those too, but for the most part I think it holds up for all Christianity.  Going by something like this might make for a more objective discussion, instead of a holy war....but then again, this is coming from a snobby athetist... :lol:
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 02, 2003, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
saying god sucks is not a radical concept anymore, its rather played out

my point is everyone is obsessed with negativity and being bad is cool


you have to stop assuming that whenever someones opinion differs from yours that they are automatically just trying to be cool. sure some people just talk shit just because they think it makes them look edgy, but i dont see any indication of that here, or at least in this thread.

and p, im still waiting for you to educate me (and the rest of us ppl) on "spiritual matters"
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 03:47:42 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
mesh what your saying does not mean anything, sure it does not need it

but maybe the added depth makes it better

i always like it when things have a lot of differnt layers

as long as the layers are not shallow

i started this whole thing saying how cool it is for a modern film maker to do something that is so outside the box


No, actually, no, you didn't.  Here's what you said, genius:

Quote
But Magnolia is a very pro god movie

what i mean is , in that world God exists


And here's what I'm saying:

No, it's not.

And:

No, God doesn't necessarily exist in the world of Magnolia.  You can't show or prove that it/He does.  You're whole point seems to be "Dude, it'd be pretty cool if Magnolia was a pro-God movie, but I have no evidence to support my repeated position that it is."

Now shut up.
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 02, 2003, 03:48:29 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

my point is everyone is obsessed with negativity and being bad is cool, thats why it was so funny and great that he didnt like their name

back to my point about god, its been cool for so long to diss god that its become cool now to embrace him


It's much too simplistic to perceive everything being done for the sake of cool/uncool, or positive/negative. The only way anyone becomes "obsessed" with these categories is if they're making the false binary assumptions they come from. The words themselves are so subjective as to be meaningless without detailed qualification.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 03:52:41 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
mesh what your saying does not mean anything, sure it does not need it

but maybe the added depth makes it better

i always like it when things have a lot of differnt layers

as long as the layers are not shallow

i started this whole thing saying how cool it is for a modern film maker to do something that is so outside the box


No, actually, no, you didn't.  Here's what you said, genius:

Quote
But Magnolia is a very pro god movie

what i mean is , in that world God exists


And here's what I'm saying:

No, it's not.

And:

No, God doesn't necessarily exist in the world of Magnolia.  You can't show or prove that it/He does.  You're whole point seems to be "Dude, it'd be pretty cool if Magnolia was a pro-God movie, but I have no evidence to support my repeated position that it is."

Now shut up.


Why are you telling the guy to shut up? He can post whatever opinions he wants to post. Yeesh.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 04:06:37 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
Mesh said: "Magnolia does not require the existence of God in order for it to be successful rhetorically or on a narrative level.

Now shut up."

Certainly it doesn't, but without it you'd be missing out on the whole transcendental spiritual experience.


Nope, you wouldn't.  "God" and "transcendental spiritual experience" are not one and the same.  Not at all.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen

Why are you telling the guy to shut up? He can post whatever opinions he wants to post. Yeesh.


...and I can request that he stop reiterating his unfounded, bullshit opinions, especially when he shows no interest in substantiating them or in considering others' refutations of said opinions.  Yeesh.
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 02, 2003, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: Mesh
...and I can request that he stop reiterating his unfounded, bullshit opinions, especially when he shows no interest in substantiating them or in considering others' refutations of said opinions.  Yeesh.

shit man. tell me your jokin here. i'd like to tell you you're right, i really do, but then you have to adress this shit to yourself.

i think sant really has a point here and i never really thought of this myself. it really ads up.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 04:14:04 PM
It really sounds to me like you are just freaking out because the mention of "God" or "religion" in conjunction with this movie seems to be an insult to you somehow. He's not preaching that it's a divine message, he's describing a feeling he got watching it. So he posted, and now we discuss. This is a "discussion board" isn't it? Telling someone to shut up isn't exactly my idea of a discussion.


Edit: That was to Mesh
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 02, 2003, 04:15:53 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: SoNowThen

Why are you telling the guy to shut up? He can post whatever opinions he wants to post. Yeesh.


...and I can request that he stop reiterating his unfounded, bullshit opinions, especially when he shows no interest in substantiating them or in considering others' refutations of said opinions.  Yeesh.


Yes, SCIABM has a way of (often) totally ignoring other people's points and just reiterating the same thing over and over again, or (often) trying to argue a point someone makes in exception to one of his on such an asinine level that it's embarrassing. It can start to get really pointless.

I doubt he'll shut up, though.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 04:21:08 PM
But in this case his opinions are neither unfounded, nor bullshit. At least the inital posts. I always felt something similar to this, and am glad someone brought it up.
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 02, 2003, 04:21:29 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
It really sounds to me like you are just freaking out because the mention of "God" or "religion" in conjunction with this movie seems to be an insult to you somehow. He's not preaching that it's a divine message, he's describing a feeling he got watching it. So he posted, and now we discuss. This is a "discussion board" isn't it? Telling someone to shut up isn't exactly my idea of a discussion.


Edit: That was to Mesh


I'm going to just jump in and say that lot of times it's not WHAT is said, but HOW it's said. Clause has pretty bluntly stated in many of his posts that if you don't see god in Magnolia, you're just trying to be "cool" and "negative" (see what I mean about the asininity?). Why is it that SoNowThen can say something about seeing god in it and it seems reasonable and thoughtful and not insulting at all, but when Clause does it, it causes all kinds of negative feeling?

Because Clause puts everything in black/white, aggro, us-or-them, contentious terms. He doesn't choose his words or battles very wisely, it seems to me. And it really only reflects poorly on him, and causes no small amount of ill feeling towards him. And to me, that's really understandable.
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 02, 2003, 04:22:34 PM
oh, what a surprise. a holy war.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 04:23:14 PM
Quote from: Phil Marlowe

shit man. tell me your jokin here. i'd like to tell you you're right, i really do, but then you have to adress this shit to yourself.

i think sant really has a point here and i never really thought of this myself. it really ads up.


Telling people to shut up over a message board continues to amuse me, and not just because it never, ever, ever, EVER fucking works.  I find it funny.  Anticipate me doing more of it.

Santa does have a great, great point, really.  Here it is:  God totally has something to do with Magnolia.

Whatever.  The film is as powerful assuming God exists as it is assuming God does not.  Period.

edit: as godardian more eloquently put it, Santa's other point is this:  "You're just saying Magnolia has nothing to do with God in order to be cool.  Secondarily, PTA made Magnolia pro-God because he knew how truly cool doing so would be."  What a bunch of, as I mentioned earlier, bullshit.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
It really sounds to me like you are just freaking out because the mention of "God" or "religion" in conjunction with this movie seems to be an insult to you somehow. He's not preaching that it's a divine message, he's describing a feeling he got watching it. So he posted, and now we discuss. This is a "discussion board" isn't it? Telling someone to shut up isn't exactly my idea of a discussion.


A.  Not freaking out.

B.  If I was, it wasn't because I freak out in the presence of discussions of "God" and "religion."  In point of fact, I'm damn good in those kinds of discussions.

C.  I'm not in the least insulted by anything in this thread.  Not one iota.  Not one bit.  Never accuse me of that again.

D.  By "Shut up" I mean "Stop trying to say we're not getting what you're saying.  We get what you're saying.  We get that what you're saying is wrong."
Title: God
Post by: aclockworkjj on June 02, 2003, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
oh, what a surprise. a holy war.

(http://store2.yimg.com/I/jsbstash_1719_230724)

this is in no way supporting Mr. Smith....just funny.
Title: Re: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 04:43:45 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

and in such way, he didnt hit us over the head with some phoney bullshit preachy mesage , we dont even know what his view on god is but the film leads us to to think whatever it is , im sure its interesting


Another example of how confused SCWABM is.  Is PTA's film pro-God or does it makes us think "Wow, PTA must really have some interesting perspectives on God..."?

Answer: neither, really.

Magnolia is neither pro-God nor does it shed much light on PTA's belief or disbelief in said God.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 02, 2003, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

i started this whole thing saying how cool it is for a modern film maker to do something that is so outside the box


You must simply adore Tom Shadyac, then.  His latest masterpiece even has the character God in it!

 :!:
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 02, 2003, 04:59:12 PM
I wouldn't say the movie sheds no light on PTA's philosophy, or God - I think it's a valid discussion point, I just don't think there's necessarily a correct answer...

Which brings me back to my rather lame point that it's something of an agnostic movie. I know, I know: what a cop-out... :wink:

I agree with you on the confusion of Santa though. I think you have interesting points sometimes Santa, it's just the hostile, intolerant way in which you express them (and you do come across often as both of these things)... If you talk about anyone who disagrees with you only doing so to look cool again, I may scream... That is such a cynical way to look at the world: and - in this situation - is also completely untrue. Why must everything boil down to image with you? Being cool, or uncool, or a cliche? Not everything is to do with that. I would, in fact, go so far as to say that very little is finally to do with that. You have to listen to what others say rather than dismiss them as just being posers if they happen to have a different point of view.
Title: God
Post by: aclockworkjj on June 02, 2003, 05:06:01 PM
has free masonary, in regards to Magnolia, been mentioned yet?...sorry, I don't feel like reading all 7 pages....
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 05:34:55 PM
Not yet. But it's a fun point. We should bring that into it.


This all reminds me of Major League: "Ah, Jesus.... I like him very much, but he no help with curve ball" -- "You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curve ball?" -- "Aw, let's not start a holy war, Harris"

Hehehe.

Mesh, I guess what the point I wanted to make is that by continually saying Santa is "wrong" and "bullshit", you're kinda doing the same black and white stuff you guys accuse him of. I really could care less if people wanna see God in Magnolia, I find things contained in the movie, and they work wonderfully for me, and I'll leave it at that.
Title: God
Post by: chainsmoking insomniac on June 02, 2003, 05:48:11 PM
Ladies and Germs, the fact of the matter is is that we're all going to take away from this film whatever we want to.  I honestly haven't decided what to make of the frog sequence; it could technically go either way.  And besides, who knows what PTA intended us to believe (if he intended us to believe in anything)?  It could just be his hella good sense of humor fucking with us when he slipped the Exodus 8:2 signs in throughout the movie.  But whatever his intention, the ending was completely unexpected and very effective, and I doubt that could be argued.  :-D
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 02, 2003, 05:50:39 PM
Yep, yep, true true. And just for the record, it isn't the 8:2 that makes me think the way I do. That was just gravy he threw in there for fun, even he said that.
Title: God
Post by: chainsmoking insomniac on June 02, 2003, 06:33:22 PM
I was just noting the Biblical reference, dude.  8)
Title: God
Post by: aclockworkjj on June 03, 2003, 12:01:10 AM
Okay....but Seduce and Destory ....that should be a religon all in itself....

.....think about it.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 01:15:13 AM
first of all mesh you have brought nothing to this group you could drop dead right now and now one would notice

so that much is a given

and two your a fucking fag
Title: Re: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 01:20:00 AM
Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

and in such way, he didnt hit us over the head with some phoney bullshit preachy mesage , we dont even know what his view on god is but the film leads us to to think whatever it is , im sure its interesting


Another example of how confused SCWABM is.  Is PTA's film pro-God or does it makes us think "Wow, PTA must really have some interesting perspectives on God..."?

Answer: neither, really.

Magnolia is neither pro-God nor does it shed much light on PTA's belief or disbelief in said God.


your saying this because that film is deeper then anything you could understand

also the reason why you cant handle my posts, by the way who has stood up for you ?????  if all you have is godradian then again i suggest you kill yourself

or write another deep post about how goodfellas is like PDL because nillison sang a song on goodfellas and wrote a song for pdl

the group is waiting for your great posts
Title: God
Post by: chainsmoking insomniac on June 03, 2003, 08:26:03 AM
Hey folks, what's with all this hostility??? SantaClause, relax.  I thought ganja relaxes man....you're talking like you popped a couple of methanphetameanies........ 8)
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 03, 2003, 09:48:15 AM
why do you think that a deeper experience necessarily means a religious one?
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 11:02:09 AM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
first of all mesh you have brought nothing to this group you could drop dead right now and now one would notice

so that much is a given

and two your a fucking fag


Perhaps the funniest thing I've ever read on xixax.com.  Bravo.

 :-D
Title: God
Post by: aclockworkjj on June 03, 2003, 11:02:55 AM
Quote from: cecil b. demented
why do you think that a deeper experience necessarily means a religious one?

Unfortunately, I think for a lot of people, religion is one of the only things they have passion for, thus, one of the only things that can give them a deep experience.  Not saying this is the case here, but speaking more just in general....
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 03, 2003, 11:03:55 AM
Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
first of all mesh you have brought nothing to this group you could drop dead right now and now one would notice

so that much is a given

and two your a fucking fag


Perhaps the funniest thing I've ever read on xixax.com.  Bravo.

 :-D

erhm...cos he's right?
Title: Re: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan

your saying this because that film is deeper then anything you could understand


True.  So true.  I'm shallow and overly concerned with "cool."  You fuckin' nailed me.  I'll quit posting and consider suicide, how 'bout that?


Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
also the reason why you cant handle my posts, by the way who has stood up for you ?????  if all you have is godradian then again i suggest you kill yourself


You're right again.  I have been finding it difficult to "handle your posts."  For that reason, I think it best that I end my life.....and be quick about it.

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
or write another deep post about how goodfellas is like PDL because nillison sang a song on goodfellas and wrote a song for pdl


Another devastating blow to my ego and musico-filmic acumen.  "Why do I even try," I might ask myself.

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
the group is waiting for your great posts


I hate to disappoint "the group," but on your advice, I have just committed suicide.  Shucks.

 :roll:
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 11:11:37 AM
Quote from: Phil Marlowe
Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
first of all mesh you have brought nothing to this group you could drop dead right now and now one would notice

so that much is a given

and two your a fucking fag


Perhaps the funniest thing I've ever read on xixax.com.  Bravo.

 :-D

erhm...cos he's right?


Don't ask why, but I expected better than this from you.  Bad, bad post.  Agreeing with someone who likes to toss the word "fag" around is pretty low class.

But suit yourself.
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 03, 2003, 11:15:00 AM
mesh, considering the fact that your posts have no other points but 'no', then why do you bother? you bash santa for not delivering any messages, you a joke man.
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 03, 2003, 11:20:29 AM
Quote from: Mesh
Don't ask why, but I expected better than this from you.  Bad, bad post.  Agreeing with someone who likes to toss the word "fag" around is pretty low class.

But suit yourself.

when he tosses the word fag around, as you say, its all in good humor. the santa guy has about a hundred good points on this subject more than you got wich is none. i respect him for being straightforward and think deep and shit wich i never will say about you.
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 03, 2003, 11:25:31 AM
That's weird and harsh.

Yo, Mesh - I agree with what you're saying about the fact that you don't necessarily need God for Magnolia to be a very deep and moving movie, but it's true: you haven't explained yourself. Maybe you don't think it needs explaining - I don't think it needs explaining - but others do, so I think it would help your argument if you put a case forward. I'm totally behind you on your opinions here - about the movie and your detractors (I've tried to give Santa the benefit of the doubt, but he really can't hold an adult conversation), so go ahead and tell it like it is...
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: children with angels
That's weird and harsh.

Yo, Mesh - I agree with what you're saying about the fact that you don't necessarily need God for Magnolia to be a very deep and moving movie, but it's true: you haven't explained yourself. Maybe you don't think it needs explaining - I don't think it needs explaining - but others do, so I think it would help your argument if you put a case forward. I'm totally behind you on your opinions here - about the movie and your detractors (I've tried to give Santa the benefit of the doubt on many occaisions, but he really can't hold an adult conversation), so go ahead and tell it like it is...


I understand what you're saying but....There's a problem here.  There's not much to explain that hasn't already been explained.

Santa's basic points (which I've already spelled out):

1.  Magnolia is pro-God.

2.  PTA (though he's been quoted in contradiction to this) put all the Biblical references in the film because he realized that making a pro-God movie was actually really cool, whereas others think that a pro-God movie is very, very uncool.

3.  Magnolia is rife with deep, religious, Christian meaning.

Now I'll refute, briefly, those three points, which I believe I've already done in this thread.  Again, I assure you that most of this has been said already, in one way or another.  Be prepared for that.

1.  Magnolia is not pro-God.  All of the events depicted in the film could have happened even if God did not and had never existed in that world.  Secondarily, none of the events in the film prove the existence of, or attempt to argue for, the existence of God.

2.  Of all the possible reasons PTA might have peppered his film with references to "8:2," the least likely, in my mind, is this:  "Because he thought it would be cool."  Here are some other possible reasons:

 a.  Foreshadowing:  PTA wanted to clue you in to the fact that a catastrophic event would occur and would facilitate change in his characters' lives.
 b.  Intertextuality:  PTA wanted to link his work of fiction with another work of literature, namely the Old Testament of the Bible.
 c.  Credibility:  PTA's prologue is a series of freak occurences, each of them underscored with the narrator's assertion that (and I paraphrase, here) "These things just do happen sometimes."  PTA's use of the biblical precursor to his rain of frogs does even more than just showing "These Things Do Happen."  It sends this message:  "Even something so strange as a Rain of Frogs can happen....sometimes twice."

3.  Magnolia, it's true, could possibly be seen as rife with deep, religious, Christian meaning.  Then again, it might just be a complex story about how things "just happen," as I refer to above.  In fact, seeing that that particular angle is given more screen time than the "God's will" angle, I'd say it's the more likely explanation for what happens in Magnolia.  I could be wrong.  But this one fact is irrefutable:  A pro-God, Biblical, Christian interpretation is not the Be All, End All of Magnolia readings.  It is not, as Santa has vehemently yelled at me, that thing about Magnolia which is "deeper then anything you [Mesh] could understand."  It is simply one possible, somewhat plausible reading.  That's all anyone's interpretation of a film is.

To make my point utterly, completely clear:  If it started saying that Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back was really only an elaborate allegory of the Cuban Missle Crisis and that those who don't see as much are poseur simpletons, wouldn't you require of me that I really, really show significant evidence that it is what I say it is?
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 03, 2003, 12:05:28 PM
Yeah. Exactly. I completely agree: it's not the "be all and end all", but it's good that you acknowledge that it is a possible reading. This is more than Santa has done for anyone else. I think it is a very ambiguous, almost post-modern, movie in which it's impossible to say exactly why things happen: that's the point. There are many things going on, it cannot all be explained with one sentence - if I felt it could, the movie would seem much less satisfying, and much less deep, as Santa puts it.
Title: Re: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 12:08:58 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
I've always told people from my church that Magnolia is the most Christian of contemporary films.


Just for the record, Brue Almighty is just as Old Testament/New Testament as Magnolia, by any measure (although BA may deal less with the specific teachings of Jesus Christ), in that it advocates prayer and "giving the reins of your life to God," and punishes selfishness in all its forms.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 03, 2003, 12:16:25 PM
I just... I obviously don't know how to explain it. I don't mean a Christian message, I don't mean as a tool to teach Christianity, and I certainly don't use either of these things as a yardstick of a good film.

I'd have to really sit down and think things through rationally before I try to explain myself. If someone really wants my opinion, I'd be happy to PM them, but I need time to properly express what I want to come across.

'Cause bullshit moralizing at the end of a comedy, well that's not what I'm about in any way. It could have been funny, but it's 180 degrees from what I mean about Magnolia.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 12:24:27 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
I just... I obviously don't know how to explain it. I don't mean a Christian message, I don't mean as a tool to teach Christianity, and I certainly don't use either of these things as a yardstick of a good film.

I'd have to really sit down and think things through rationally before I try to explain myself. If someone really wants my opinion, I'd be happy to PM them, but I need time to properly express what I want to come across.

'Cause bullshit moralizing at the end of a comedy, well that's not what I'm about in any way. It could have been funny, but it's 180 degrees from what I mean about Magnolia.


You're winning this thread, if you ask me, because you're expressing a feeling about Magnolia that is quite personal to you.  You're saying that Magnolia has a resonance that you can apply to your own deepest held beliefs.  If you see it, it's there.  You not trying to tell us that we don't see what you see in it and, for that, we're idiot hipsters who only care about how our opinions "sound."
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 12:27:21 PM
Quote from: Phil Marlowe

when he tosses the word fag around, as you say, its all in good humor.


Yeah.  Ha, ha, ha.  Very funny.

Shut up.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 03, 2003, 12:32:02 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Shut up.
Quote from: Mesh
I'll quit posting and consider suicide, how 'bout that?

yeah, what happened to that?
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 12:32:34 PM
Quote from: Phil Marlowe
mesh, considering the fact that your posts have no other points but 'no', then why do you bother?


I don't like to just stand idly by when people post things I don't think are true and they're asses about it.

Quote from: Phil Marlowe
you bash santa for not delivering any messages, you a joke man.


"No" is a message.  You a joke, man.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 12:37:08 PM
Quote from: P

yeah, what happened to that?


I already did it.  I'm posting from the Afterlife and God says "Nope, Magnolia wasn't really pro-Me."

Can't you read?

Quote from: Mesh
I hate to disappoint "the group," but on your advice, I have just committed suicide.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 03, 2003, 12:46:36 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Yeah.  Ha, ha, ha.  Very funny.

Shut up.
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 03, 2003, 12:47:18 PM
arrrhgh, you ar so annoying i cant stand it! you are hitting at others for there attitudes while you go around yourself carrying the most ingorrant and annoying attitudes i have seen in a long while.

please stop posting this much.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 12:55:34 PM
Quote from: Phil Marlowe
arrrhgh, you ar so annoying i cant stand it! you are hitting at others for there attitudes while you go around yourself carrying the most ingorrant and annoying attitudes i have seen in a long while.


Aren't you the one who just agreed that calling people "fags" is really humorous stuff?  I'm happy to annoy people like you.
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 03, 2003, 12:59:45 PM
its not important if the word gay is used its what point. but i guess you wouldnt know any thing about that.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 03, 2003, 01:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Aren't you the one who just agreed that calling people "fags" is really humorous stuff?  I'm happy to annoy people like you.

dude, u've always had a fuckin unjustifiably arrogant and superior attitude, and quite an unpleasant odour i might add. i know that's how fat ppl like to act on the internet but if u keep on being an unfunny unfriendly and generally disliked ass, i'm gonna hav to do sumthin horrible to ur face.. uh, and posting abilities.
Title: God
Post by: phil marlowe on June 03, 2003, 01:04:38 PM
shit this is getting rerally fuckin stupid. i'll quote myself.

Quote from: Phil Marlowe
the sad thing about internet dicussion is that a fight can only be taken this far.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 03, 2003, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: P
i'm gonna hav to do sumthin horrible to ur face.. uh, and posting abilities.
Quote from: Phil Marlowe
the sad thing about internet dicussion is that a fight can only be taken this far.

yeah this shit gets boring fast.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 01:27:09 PM
Quote from: P

dude, u've always had a fuckin unjustifiably arrogant and superior attitude, and quite an unpleasant odour i might add. i know that's how fat ppl like to act on the internet but if u keep on being an unfunny unfriendly and generally disliked ass, i'm gonna hav to do sumthin horrible to ur face.. uh, and posting abilities.


This is exactly what's wrong with this board.  I argue both reasonably and as a bit of an ass on a point I feel strongly about.  Then I get called both a "fag" and "fat."  Then I'm admonished to be "less disliked" (how does one do that, exactly?) and threatened with being banned by the fascists who run this thing.  Pathetic.
Title: God
Post by: polkablues on June 03, 2003, 01:57:34 PM
Let's just settle this all with a good old-fashioned "West Side Story"-style  dance brawl!  We can have finger-snapping and stabbing and singing and pretty senoritas....  It'll be a grand old time!





























 :roll:
Title: God
Post by: aclockworkjj on June 03, 2003, 02:17:33 PM
I have been talking to myself throughout this post.....if anyone is better than anyone here....I am the bestest of the best!  Be jealous.  It takes much skill to carry on a conversation by yourself.... :lol:
Title: God
Post by: Sleuth on June 03, 2003, 02:18:49 PM
Hahaha, this is hilarious.  Are you guys serious?
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 03, 2003, 02:25:30 PM
Quote from: polkablues
Let's just settle this all with a good old-fashioned "West Side Story"-style  dance brawl!  We can have finger-snapping and stabbing and singing and pretty senoritas....  It'll be a grand old time!


Dude, dance brawls are totally pro-God and if you're incapable of seeing that, you must be some kind of suicidal, fat fag!  I'll ban you!

 :wink:
Title: God
Post by: Sally O'Malley on June 03, 2003, 03:52:53 PM
@_@
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 03, 2003, 05:18:55 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan


and two your a fucking fag


Again, you display your rhetorical genius. You do realize it's impossible to take you at all seriously when you make and defend your points like this?

I challenge anyone to explain how the above-quoted comment isn't backwards, detrimental to discussion, and idiotic.
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 03, 2003, 05:23:36 PM
He'll defend it by saying it's only for comedy, but that really isn't an answer when you are, in general, an incredibly intolerant person. I've said it before, Santa: what you think of as post-political correctness enlightenment is simply coming off as pre-political correctness bigotry.
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 03, 2003, 05:29:04 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: P

dude, u've always had a fuckin unjustifiably arrogant and superior attitude, and quite an unpleasant odour i might add. i know that's how fat ppl like to act on the internet but if u keep on being an unfunny unfriendly and generally disliked ass, i'm gonna hav to do sumthin horrible to ur face.. uh, and posting abilities.


This is exactly what's wrong with this board.  I argue both reasonably and as a bit of an ass on a point I feel strongly about.  Then I get called both a "fag" and "fat."  Then I'm admonished to be "less disliked" (how does one do that, exactly?) and threatened with being banned by the fascists who run this thing.  Pathetic.


It really is pathetic. SantaClause is one of the most illiterate, juvenile, dull-witted, dense 'Net-dwellers I've ever had the misfortune of knowing about, and that's really saying something. Could anyone possibly be as unlikeable as he is? Not Mesh. Not by a fucking long shot. Only a very biased mind would tolerate Clause, find him benign, and wag their finger at Mesh.

Too often, being here is like being in an episode of South Park where every character is that little retarded-voiced kid who says "Duh... that's gay." Except here, they're not being satirized- it's somehow a prevalent attitude.

I don't know that anyone has the unilateral ability to "ban" anyone, either. I'd be surprised if that were the case.
Title: God
Post by: Gold Trumpet on June 03, 2003, 05:34:14 PM
I'm glad I stayed out of a conversation that had anything to do with God and interpretations dealing with God in some way here. Last board I was at just banned all arguments of God because they got so brutal.

I would like to say a few things though:

I am an agnostic, but feel a direct Christian reference being brought from the film, due simply to the Exodus 8:2 representations and miracle it inspires. On the other hand, this feels like Kieslowski's The Decalogue to where it does take from something specifically Christain, but yet never really explains it out to be a sermon for that religion and insteads become subjective for each individual to say what they think.Thus the feeling, for me, was very powerful and felt more powerful than just a dramatic point because it delved into the possibilities of what can dictate certain unexplainable wonders. That was my feeling and if someone felt a certain part of their religion being brought up, then fine. I have no problem with it. To each their own. I am prolly am spitting things already said here anyways so skip all i said.

~rougerum
Title: God
Post by: RegularKarate on June 03, 2003, 05:43:15 PM
This thread could have been a whole lot better.

Thing is, Santa is kind of contridicting himself.  
Seriously, I kind of like the point you've brought up here and agree somewhat.  But your attitude throughout the thread is so close minded.  You say that it's cut and dry, straight-forward and that it's obvious that he's saying "god exists".  I think it's pretty obvious that it's left open for interpretation... that's why we have the Charles Fort book and the 82... two different theories for what happens with the frogs.

Children has a good point... it seems you're so afraid of this "image minded" label that you're just assuming anyone that disagrees with you does so because that's what's cool.

Obviously the frogs and 82 can be connected to christianity, but the film just has a religious friendly theme... redemption and in some ways, Karma

But this thread isn't about religion... some people are misinterpreting it that way and therefore just making it worse.

I know most (if not all of this) has been said, but I'm writing this as I read.

I'm also disapointed that Santa was not sooner reprimanded for his unlawful use of the word "fag"... the fact that the post makes him sound like an oaf asside, it's just not some shit that should be thrown around lightly... you can continue this conversation in P's favorite thread.

And I think that Mesh is being a tad ridiculous (which is less than usual), but seems to be ganged up on for this topic.  I'm not defending Mesh, really... he can be quite the unreasonable prick at times.



Oh, and:
Quote from: godardian
I don't know that anyone has the unilateral ability to "ban" anyone, either. I'd be surprised if that were the case.

Surprise.
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 03, 2003, 05:47:02 PM
Quote from: RegularKarate



Oh, and:
Quote from: godardian
I don't know that anyone has the unilateral ability to "ban" anyone, either. I'd be surprised if that were the case.

Surprise.


So... the person who threatened to ban Mesh actually has the power to do so? I think if someone is threatening to ban people in a situation like that, it's a little scary that they actually have the unilateral ability to do so.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: Phil Marlowe
mesh, considering the fact that your posts have no other points but 'no', then why do you bother? you bash santa for not delivering any messages, you a joke man.


and i have a strong hunch he was kidding about the part about wanting to kill himself

well now he has brought nothing to the table
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 03, 2003, 06:41:04 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan


well now he has brought nothing to the table


Cryptic, yet insipid.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 06:47:54 PM
who wants to ban mesh, he has been saying this since day one

about how he is some cutting edge dude and he will scare people with his scarey logic

i do not think he matters to anyone .

nor does anyone really, but at least i dunno to some people this is getting across

i love when people get really up in arms over something i have to say, mission acomplished

rk, i am glad that you got what i was getting at

after like page three my point was not really being expressed the right way but my first point is still out there, and i guess from time to time it creeps back in

it might get lost in the haze of fuck yous, but thats the point because i do not write to make everyone happy

and guess what , the people who get it are the right people and pissing off godardian and mesh, thats what we live for

why the fuck else did johhny rotten wear a " i hate pink floyd" t shirt at the height of drak side mania

was it because he hated pink floyd, or was it something else ?

i am not a snob, and i am not a thug hate basher type

im just trying to do something great
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 03, 2003, 07:01:00 PM
I would try again to explain that you can have an okay idea, but the way you interact with others is completely confused, intolerant and infantile - but it really is almost exactly like talking to brick wall. It makes me doubt the point of a message board when people don't listen to what others have to say. It's just a depressing waste of time.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 07:07:22 PM
Quote from: children with angels
I would try again to explain that you can have an okay idea, but the way you interact with others is completely confused, intolerant and infantile - but it really is almost exactly like talking to brick wall. It makes me doubt the point of a message board when people don't listen to what others have to say. It's just a depressing waste of time.


ohh its all in good fun, its a image really

i hate saying this because it makes me ill to have to explain myself

but just look at it again, and then you will see what i am getting at

and my point is not the use of the word fag

if anything that is just smoking a ciggerete in a nice l.a restaurant

i am not blowing it anyones face, but on the otherhand i think its gross to have to go outside

and here is the kicker i do not even smoke, but just dont tell me not to in such a smug manner, because i have plent of cash and i am insane enough to smoke a fucking cartoon a hour just to piss off that snooty maytra d

VIVA LA MEXICO !!!!!!! i feel to many threads these days do not express love towards mexico
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 07:57:15 PM
when i said that religan makes me ill let me expand on that

i think crashing plains into buildings makes me ill, i think strapping bombs to your chests to take out discos makes me ill

i think going to church and rubbing your BMW under the nose of some poor shlub who drives a chrysler makes me ill

like the bmw guy will get a better seat because he gives more money to the church , and he wants YOU Too know that and his wife is gonna wear her best dress to tell everyone that god thinks they are cooler because they are rich that makes me ill

i think the vatican taking money from the mob so they could buy their way into heavon that makes me ill

what does any of this have to do with god

i fucking respect the ned flanders of the world, hell in 2003 to have such strong faith is a great thing

i respect people who beilve in their religen for pure reasons

those fucking people are great

like sonowthen, i think he has his head on straight when it comes to this subject

i really do respect that sort of thing

my problem is with fanatics, i hate fanatics

and in my case in my church all i saw was people trying to one up each other over stupid shit

" i have a better job so god loves me more " " well my wife has big tits, i must sit at the cool table "

why is their a cool table ? its because humans are all to human and many holy men are cunfused and they let money and greed cloud there important work

they are there to help pass along gods work , and not to pretend they work for the guy and that they deserve to be treated cool because they are in his possie

god is not leonardo dicaprio, and the pope shouldnt be treated like like david blaine trying to get restaurant reservations

my point is i have seen bad, but i have seen also good

and in the end if its just 1 guy out of 50000 we must stand up for that one guy because he is doing the right thing
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 03, 2003, 10:06:16 PM
I think that was beautiful, what you just said.
Title: God
Post by: RegularKarate on June 03, 2003, 10:06:33 PM
Quote from: godardian

So... the person who threatened to ban Mesh actually has the power to do so? I think if someone is threatening to ban people in a situation like that, it's a little scary that they actually have the unilateral ability to do so.


Banning decisions are made quite democratically here and people are rarely ever banned.  And no one without warning.

It's actually not scary at all.  Nothing to worry about.

Unless you like Kevin Smith then you're gone.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 10:29:42 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
I think that was beautiful, what you just said.


thank you, i would expect kind words from a man who has the good taste to know that the late 60's and earlly 70's were the rolling stones best era

fucking mick taylor is amazing, but history sweeps him under the rug

does it get better then " sway"
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 03, 2003, 10:37:50 PM
i like kevin smith. and yes, THAT way
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 03, 2003, 11:02:54 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Quote from: SoNowThen
I think that was beautiful, what you just said.


thank you, i would expect kind words from a man who has the good taste to know that the late 60's and earlly 70's were the rolling stones best era

fucking mick taylor is amazing, but history sweeps him under the rug

does it get better then " sway"


Exactly!! The fucking forgotten song. Love the count in "...one, two, three..." then Keith's chords chug in. Whew. But really, who thinks different about the Stones? I mean, I love Ronnie Wood, and I think Black and Blue is a tres underrated album, and Some Girls is fucking classic, but geez, Mick Taylor might be the most underrated lead guitarist ever. They say that he could just pick up and do ALL of Clapton's stuff by heart, he had it cold. And the Brian Jones era, c'mon, great singles, but only when they started turning his mic down did they record brilliant albums. Yep, doesn't really get any better. Cept maybe the cooldown of Moonlight Mile. I wish they wouldn't have named a movie after it.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 11:09:21 PM
mick taylor is the most under rated guitarist ever

he had no social charisma, but boy could he play guitar

argh i was about to re write " ziggy stardust"

Miccccccccccky Played GuiTarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

everyone loves the stones right, but that fucking era was just wow

rocks off , sway, sweet virginia

i like memory motel from black and blue, its a weird country soul hybrid

have you seen cocksuckers blues, the documentry of the exile tour

Its just that demon life thats got me in its swayyyyyy

that song is fukcing heroin, so goooood so good so good

love the stones
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 03, 2003, 11:13:24 PM
Everytime someone promises me a bad bootleg copy of Cocksucker Blues, I never get it. Fuck.

Yeah, there's moments in Torn And Frayed and Shine A Light, I dunno, pure musical nirvana. It's roughness achieves perfection.

Hey, as a fellow Stones fan, you might know this: I have this copy of live bootlegs and unreleased stuff, but it's all unlabelled. There's this song, it sounds late 70's era Stones, with the lyrics "don't change, don't let nobody change ya"... and it's got some hot sax playing. It's kind of a groove tune... but I can't seem to figure out the title of it. I don't know if it's a cover, or if it's an unreleased track. You have any idea?
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 03, 2003, 11:20:53 PM
... and after the great storm passed, there was tranquility and a new sense of friendship. xixax.com is peaceful for now, but... for how long....
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 03, 2003, 11:24:50 PM
Argh i know what your talkin about, it sounds like emotinol rescue era right

im kinda out of it right now, but it will come to me

by the way musical nirvana that is so dead on perfect

Let the gooooood lord shine a light on me

im gonna go lie down now , brb as my party people on the net say
Title: God
Post by: Jon on June 04, 2003, 05:52:43 AM
This whole thing was fucking sick.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 04, 2003, 08:47:25 AM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Argh i know what your talkin about, it sounds like emotinol rescue era right

im kinda out of it right now, but it will come to me

by the way musical nirvana that is so dead on perfect

Let the gooooood lord shine a light on me

im gonna go lie down now , brb as my party people on the net say


Yes! Emotional Rescue era, very close to the same feeling as the Dance Part 1 and 2 tracks. We're so close...
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 04, 2003, 11:26:57 AM
Quote from: godardian

I think if someone is threatening to ban people in a situation like that, it's a little scary that they actually have the unilateral ability to do so.


It basically sucks and should be changed.  I'd much rather have one mod in charge of bannings: that way, if a consensus forms that some boarder has got to go, so be it.

If a consensus forms that I've got to go, so be it.  It's just that random threats could turn this into a Be Nice popularity contest.  I don't always want to Be Nice, nor do I think always doing so makes for an interesting board.

BTW, p has since dismissed his threat as a joke.....so......I'm over it.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 04, 2003, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: RegularKarate

I think that Mesh is being a tad ridiculous


Totally.  I am, probably, at different points in the thread....no more than others in it.

Quote from: RegularKarate
I'm not defending Mesh, really... he can be quite the unreasonable prick at times.


A prick? Sure.  I tend to fight fire with fire, I suppose.  Unreasonable?  Less likely.

Either way, this is me.  Give me a few hundred more posts; I bet my style will become more acceptable to you guys in time.  We'll see.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 04, 2003, 01:06:15 PM
Quote from: Mesh
BTW, p has since dismissed his threat as a joke.....so......I'm over it.
Quote from: P
i'm gonna hav to do sumthin horrible to ur face.. uh, and posting abilities.

how could that be taken seriously? if i was gonna ban u i'd do it silently, u wouldn't be missed.

next time don't pretend to be so mortified by sum fuckin joke. and for the record i never said "just kidding".
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 04, 2003, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: P
if i was gonna ban u i'd do it silently, u wouldn't be missed.


Does anyone here think this kinda threatening shit is good for this discussion board?  p,  if there was a poll about this fuckin' 8th grade, kids' stuff, it would not come out in your favor.*

*At least for the sake of the board, I hope not.
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 04, 2003, 01:44:48 PM
Yeah, this is all getting too harsh. Let's each one of us agree to disagree. I mean, after all, we each love Magnolia in our own ways, right? That should be good enough.

It's kinda funny, we all like PTA, and yet his forum seems to be the one with the most arguments...


But most of all, I would like to get back to me and Santa's Stones discussion :)
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 04, 2003, 01:52:39 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen

It's kinda funny, we all like PTA, and yet his forum seems to be the one with the most arguments...


Stands to reason.  You're more likely to vigorously defend your position on something if you truly care about it.  The interpretation of Magnolia is a subject I find myself caring about; I don't like to hear reductive readings of it, and I'll refute them when I can.
Title: God
Post by: Pubrick on June 04, 2003, 02:04:59 PM
Quote from: Mesh
Does anyone here think this kinda threatening shit is good for this discussion board?  p,  if there was a poll about this fuckin' 8th grade, kids' stuff, it would not come out in your favor.*

*At least for the sake of the board, I hope not.

nice way to blow shit out of proportion again, numbnuts.

am i talking to the whole board? my message was addressed to u, i'm talking to u. the rest of the ppl know how i feel about em, and even ppl who've pissed me off longer than u like ebeaman and GT, the perennial victim and aggrandizer respectively, havn't twisted my insults into a vague condemnation of the future of the board "think of the children!". congratulations on being a new breed of jerk.

i don't believe for a second this "save the board" bullshit ur peddling, u and ur 'crew' had an agenda from the start to be over-defensive and show that no one pushes these fat kids around. i'm happy to say that Poser and even BankyEdwards grew to be likeable personalities on this here board, which may i add existed before u, and will exist long after everyone realises ur a transparent fake ass bitch.

if u wish to continue this feel free to PM. i won't be replyin to this thread anymore. i'm giving u the opportunity to post another, hopefully final, saintly meditation on the horrors of being a hypocrite. good day.
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 04, 2003, 02:15:10 PM
Quote from: P
numbnuts
insults
jerk
fat kid
transparent fake ass bitch
hypocrite


Look what I've reduced you to.

How old are you?
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 04, 2003, 02:28:24 PM
Quote from: P

nice way to blow shit out of proportion again, numbnuts.


What's out of proportion?  You keep threatening, I keep saying you suck for doing so.

Quote from: P
....twisted my insults into a vague condemnation of the future of the board "think of the children!"


It's certainly not treatment I appreciate and I know others feel the same way.  Read the above thread for evidence.

Quote from: P
...agenda from the start to be over-defensive and show that no one pushes these fat kids around. i'm happy to say that Poser and even BankyEdwards grew to be likeable personalities on this here board, which may i add existed before u, and will exist long after everyone realises ur a transparent fake ass bitch.


So you liking or disliking someone is the yardstick here?  Great.  Agenda?  What agenda?  If I'd had some agenda, I'd have quit posting here like the rest of those who signed on around the same time I did (or were banned from posting whatsoever).  BTW, you're saying my agenda was "to not be pushed around"?  Boring agenda, if you ask me.

Sorry you don't like me.  Get over that.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 07:48:24 PM
Quote from: P
Quote from: Mesh
BTW, p has since dismissed his threat as a joke.....so......I'm over it.
Quote from: P
i'm gonna hav to do sumthin horrible to ur face.. uh, and posting abilities.

how could that be taken seriously? if i was gonna ban u i'd do it silently, u wouldn't be missed.

next time don't pretend to be so mortified by sum fuckin joke. and for the record i never said "just kidding".


thats my point no one would notice this guy , but still he thinks he matters

he keeps saying how people want to ban him, who the fuck knows who the hell he is, if it wasnt for me making fun of his gay posts nobody would no who he is
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 04, 2003, 07:52:10 PM
I always thought Mesh was kinda cool.
But then I would, wouldn't I? Christ: I'm such a cliche.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 07:52:20 PM
Take me down little Susie, take me down
I know you think you're the queen of the underground
And you can Send me dead flowers every morning
Send me dead flowers by the mail
Send me dead flowers to my wedding
And guess the fuck what , I won't forget to put roses on your graveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 07:56:09 PM
Quote from: children with angels
I always thought Mesh was kinda cool.
But then I would, wouldn't I? Christ: I'm such a cliche.


cool ? dont you mean safe , kind, harmless, does not rock the boat does not stir the pot adds nothing to the mix, but dang if he aint a swell guy
Title: God
Post by: Sleuth on June 04, 2003, 07:57:02 PM
When you stretch out the "e" in grave, I read "gravy" and that's just a silly mental image
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 07:58:50 PM
Quote from: tremolosloth
When you stretch out the "e" in grave, I read "gravy" and that's just a silly mental image


that could be cool, roses on your gravy

we must get together and write a song around that title
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 04, 2003, 07:59:13 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Quote from: children with angels
I always thought Mesh was kinda cool.
But then I would, wouldn't I? Christ: I'm such a cliche.


cool ? dont you mean safe , kind, harmless, does not rock the boat does not stir the pot adds nothing to the mix, but dang if he aint a swell guy


No.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 08:03:02 PM
Quote from: children with angels
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Quote from: children with angels
I always thought Mesh was kinda cool.
But then I would, wouldn't I? Christ: I'm such a cliche.


cool ? dont you mean safe , kind, harmless, does not rock the boat does not stir the pot adds nothing to the mix, but dang if he aint a swell guy


No.


your right i might of went to far with the swell guy t hing, i should of ended it with him bringing nothing to the mix
Title: God
Post by: children with angels on June 04, 2003, 08:05:48 PM
Once again you've run rings round me intellectually and I am unable to compete.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 08:08:13 PM
Quote from: children with angels
Once again you've run rings round me intellectually and I am unable to compete.


well what can i say, i mean your right but still i mean everybody needs a peer, you mesh and godard can sit around and well do whatever it is you guys do

you wacky kids
Title: God
Post by: Cecil on June 04, 2003, 08:31:45 PM
i dont think theres anything wrong with mesh at all. plus his avatars turn me on
Title: God
Post by: ębrad on June 04, 2003, 09:04:08 PM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Take me down little Susie, take me down
I know you think you're the queen of the underground
And you can Send me dead flowers every morning
Send me dead flowers by the mail
Send me dead flowers to my wedding
And guess the fuck what , I won't forget to put roses on your graveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


i love that song.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 09:05:58 PM
Quote from: ębrad
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
Take me down little Susie, take me down
I know you think you're the queen of the underground
And you can Send me dead flowers every morning
Send me dead flowers by the mail
Send me dead flowers to my wedding
And guess the fuck what , I won't forget to put roses on your graveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


i love that song.



fuckin a ma man
Title: God
Post by: modage on June 04, 2003, 11:47:01 PM
theres a cool cover of that song on the BIG LEBOWSKI sntk by Townes Van Zandt, but you cant beat the Stones version.  STICKY FINGERS....best album ever.
Title: God
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on June 04, 2003, 11:55:01 PM
Quote from: themodernage02
theres a cool cover of that song on the BIG LEBOWSKI sntk by Townes Van Zandt, but you cant beat the Stones version.  STICKY FINGERS....best album ever.


:: hums the guitar intro to " bitch" ::

i love the stones so much , and part of that record was recorded in Muscle Shoals alabama

how fucking cool is that , it adds to the mix
Title: God
Post by: godardian on June 05, 2003, 12:53:32 AM
Plenty of their stuff is cool, but to my ears, The Stones never topped "Under My Thumb."
Title: God
Post by: SoNowThen on June 05, 2003, 08:54:35 AM
Quote from: godardian
Plenty of their stuff is cool, but to my ears, The Stones never topped "Under My Thumb."


Jumpin' Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil
Gimme Shelter
Midnight Rambler
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Title: God
Post by: Mesh on June 05, 2003, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan
...does not rock the boat does not stir the pot adds nothing to the mix...


(http://world.std.com/~ecrowley/jensteve/p8010037.jpg)
(http://members.aol.com/hayhurst1/images/cowboy-brew.jpg)
(http://www.parents.org.uk/images/pd_mixing.jpg)

 :P