XIXAX Film Forum

The Director's Chair => Paul Thomas Anderson => Topic started by: Punch Drunk Hate on December 02, 2017, 12:25:34 AM

Title: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on December 02, 2017, 12:25:34 AM
From most accounts it seems fans of Paul movies are mostly white straight males. Even with the critical success of his movies they don't attract many outsiders to show up. Why do you think minorities or women not as fascinated with his work? Are the subject matters just too geared to interests of his audience, or is there a hidden factors that steered those audiences away from Paul work?
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on December 02, 2017, 12:31:09 AM
Most accounts?  Citation needed.

Just 'cause this forum is predominantly male doesn't mean his fan base is.

Paul wasn't close with his mother and is male, so his films will no doubt reflect that POV.  His first picture is very much oriented in a male perspective but still manages to give Clementine her due.  Boogie Nights will simply turn off a lot of the female audience because of its subject matter, but is more than fair in its treatment of its women characters.  Magnolia is an amazing study of women.  PDL is again male-centric, not really giving much insight into Lena.  There Will Be Blood was criticized for not having women really, a criticism that was very much out of place because that was simply reflective of the times.  The Master was similar to There Will Be Blood in that respect.

I don't think you can say one thing or another about PTA's demographic without some sort of scientific survey.  Anything further would just be conjecture based on hearsay.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on December 02, 2017, 01:15:36 AM
Most accounts?  Citation needed.

Just 'cause this forum is predominantly male doesn't mean his fan base is.

Paul wasn't close with his mother and is male, so his films will no doubt reflect that POV.  His first picture is very much oriented in a male perspective but still manages to give Clementine her due.  Boogie Nights will simply turn off a lot of the female audience because of its subject matter, but is more than fair in its treatment of its women characters.  Magnolia is an amazing study of women.  PDL is again male-centric, not really giving much insight into Lena.  There Will Be Blood was criticized for not having women really, a criticism that was very much out of place because that was simply reflective of the times.  The Master was similar to There Will Be Blood in that respect.

I don't think you can say one thing or another about PTA's demographic without some sort of scientific survey.  Anything further would just be conjecture based on hearsay.

This hotbed is off-limits, even if the forum fits into my expression.

Anecdotal observation is that I know some prominent film critics who categorize PTA as being a dudebro director in the vein of Nolan and Tarantino.  It also doesn't help that many Film Twitter commentators are male, with Paul being popular with young filmgoers he crosses into that demographic. Scrolling through the IMDB user ratings show a big gap between the female and male voting, with men rating the films higher. We could attest that his movies are primarily centered on the male psyche, though Phantom Thread seems to be a welcoming change where the female is a co-lead with one of his muse. This is just going off past encounters on the web, as I do know females who love his work and would cite Paul as their favorite director.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Rooty Poots on December 02, 2017, 08:30:41 AM
Gay white guy here, and while there are plenty of filmmakers I love, PTA is the only one I truly Stan for.

My Filipino husband loves him too (but not as obsessively as I do).
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 02, 2017, 11:01:19 AM
He’s not a superstar director with blockbuster hits and a strong media presence where he gives quotable interviews so most of his fans are film geeks. And Film geeks are usually white dudes.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: wilberfan on December 02, 2017, 11:51:48 AM
And Film geeks are usually white dudes.

That's sort of where I was headed.  Let's turn the question around.  What director's fan base is almost exclusively female?  Is there even one?  What do women nerd-out about?  Which creative types (not actors--too easy) have their group of Fangirls?
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 02, 2017, 12:03:24 PM
Sofia Coppola, Maya Deren, Ava Duvernay, Chantal Akerman, Kelly Reichardt and Rebecca Miller all have female fan bases.

Anderson isn’t as famous as Oliver Stone, Spike Lee, Wes Anderson or Tarantino, etc so the people who know him by name are a small group.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on December 02, 2017, 12:05:29 PM
Let's take this a step even further.  Can we accurately answer this question?  Is there any way to formulate a survey and get it out to the general public and stress that it be answered only by women?  I don't see how you do that.  Maybe you just write the survey, and ask that the takers specify a gender, and extrapolate the results that way.  Any means in which you disseminate the survey will be biased just in the way you get it out there.

What would the questions look like?

1) What are your 5 favorite films?
2) What do you think are the 5 best films ever made?
3) What are your 5 favorite directors?
4) Who do you think are the 5 best directors?
5) Name 5 film related artists who in your view have the biggest following?

Choosing 5 so as not to limit to one, but allow for more options and establish a ranking.

I'm trying to at the same time draw a line between what people love and what people acknowledge as quality, and allow for the fact that even anonymously, people want to give "smart" answers.

Ask age, race, religion, gender, political affiliation, and income, and then extrapolate based on that?

I am interested in this question too because I've often wondered why there aren't more women film geeks?  Or is it just that they don't feel comfortable making their presence known online?  Or that they don't get as passionate about things as men do?  I've noticed this in other pursuits as well, so it's not an isolated phenomenon.

Let's try to at least come to a consensus as to what the questions are, and then maybe we can figure out how to get them out there and get them answered.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 02, 2017, 12:39:22 PM
Being a Film nerd means risking looking like a loser with no social life. That’s a risk girls aren’t willing to take.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on December 02, 2017, 01:08:15 PM
Being a Film nerd means risking looking like a loser with no social life. That’s a risk girls aren’t willing to take.


You have many girls who consider themselves bookworms, which has the same habit as being a film geek. The difference lays in that reading tons of books, while not common, is more socially acceptable then a person who watches thousands of films and can create a 1000 favorites list.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Rooty Poots on December 02, 2017, 01:12:34 PM
There are plenty of female film geeks. But most online film geek communities aren’t the safest places for them. I’d say maybe almost 50% of the membership at The Dissolve are women.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 02, 2017, 01:55:51 PM
Social currency means more to girls. There are probably more girls who are into anime and horror flicks than the types of films pta makes.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on December 02, 2017, 05:37:42 PM
There are plenty of female film geeks. But most online film geek communities aren’t the safest places for them. I’d say maybe almost 50% of the membership at The Dissolve are women.

Many cornerstones of the internet are hostile to any viewpoint of a female, so they don't feel like speaking out in fear of harassment from douchebags. I remember The Dissolve, but I didn't realize the high percentage of female users contrary to other sites, which is welcoming. It's sites such as reddit that need to clean up the toxic misogyny that pollutes the site.

Social currency means more to girls. There are probably more girls who are into anime and horror flicks than the types of films pta makes.


I get anime but horror is bizarre in that some of the most popular films tend to have strong misogynist tones, such as the slasher flicks of the eighties. 
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Drenk on December 02, 2017, 05:38:52 PM
I don't buy that social currency thing or that you can state that as fact.

Masculinity is definitely something important in PTA's work—and it's not some dudebro fantasy even if he got the dudebros with There Will Be Blood (they are slowly going away now, though). The people I know online or "irl" who are as crazy about PTA as I am are mostly men. Yes. Straight or not. White or not.

I think it's linked to the way online communities work. Like ono says, you have to answer this question in a scientific way. The results might be interesting, but I can't do it.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 02, 2017, 05:42:20 PM
You clearly have a lot to learn about women.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Drenk on December 02, 2017, 05:43:13 PM
You clearly have a lot to learn about women.

And that comment just confirms where I thought your statement came from.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jenkins on December 02, 2017, 07:19:50 PM
whether the attribution of a hierarchical value system is a lame-ass male characteristic or not (it is), the whole problem initiates when you wonder whether this is a problem or not. it's not. the problem is if you aren't more than a PTA fan. how's your cinephile card? if you got a healthy cinephile card don't sweat the technique.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Robyn on December 03, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
Being a Film nerd means risking looking like a loser with no social life. That’s a risk girls aren’t willing to take.

You clearly have a lot to learn about women.

You talk so much shit.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 03, 2017, 05:39:58 PM
I think it's been a very long time since being a "film nerd" has cast people out of social circles. Fandom in general has literally never been more mainstream.

That's even setting aside the idea that "girls" are so universally shallow that they suppress their own passions for social advantage.

You could make a separate argument about conditioning.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Robyn on December 03, 2017, 07:24:51 PM
What's the equivalent of living under a rock on the internet, or can you do that here too? You can literally just go to any community on the internet (except for like 4chan and some part of Reddit but they are flooded with so much shit anyway) to see that it's bullshit, especially facebook groups (where you aren't anonymous) related to music or film. It saddens me when I come across this type of thinking, because it's a real problem. Imagine writing something thoughtful about film or music and then get messages from dudes who are like "What's up, girl? ;) ;) ;) I didn't that there was girls that was interesting in this kind of music or film ;) ;) ;)". Fuck off. It must be frustrating as hell. 

It's related to the same kind of thinking that most "girl nerds" are posers which I feel was more common within nerd culture around the net 10-15 years ago. I think it is important to call someone out when you see it, because it makes message boards and communities a really shitty place sometimes. You should be able to discuss stuff and be passionate about whatever you want no matter gender. It's 2017 now, you know.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 03, 2017, 08:05:00 PM
You clearly have a lot to learn about women.

And that comment just confirms where I thought your statement came from.

I think it's been a very long time since being a "film nerd" has cast people out of social circles. Fandom in general has literally never been more mainstream.

That's even setting aside the idea that "girls" are so universally shallow that they suppress their own passions for social advantage.

You could make a separate argument about conditioning.

Being a Film nerd means risking looking like a loser with no social life. That’s a risk girls aren’t willing to take.

You clearly have a lot to learn about women.

You talk so much shit.

What's the equivalent of living under a rock on the internet, or can you do that here too? You can literally just go to any community on the internet (except for like 4chan and some part of Reddit but they are flooded with so much shit anyway) to see that it's bullshit, especially facebook groups (where you aren't anonymous) related to music or film. It saddens me when I come across this type of thinking, because it's a real problem. Imagine writing something thoughtful about film or music and then get messages from dudes who are like "What's up, girl? ;) ;) ;) I didn't that there was girls that was interesting in this kind of music or film ;) ;) ;)". Fuck off. It must be frustrating as hell. 

It's related to the same kind of thinking that most "girl nerds" are posers which I feel was more common within nerd culture around the net 10-15 years ago. I think it is important to call someone out when you see it, because it makes message boards and communities a really shitty place sometimes. You should be able to discuss stuff and be passionate about whatever you want no matter gender. It's 2017 now, you know.

Don't listen to me and instead listen to Gilian Flynn, a woman who's an award winning author and screenwriter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaoQNDIf6pY

"Men actually think this girl exists. Maybe they’re fooled because so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl. For a long time Cool Girl offended me. I used to see men – friends, coworkers, strangers – giddy over these awful pretender women, and I’d want to sit these men down and calmly say: You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them. I’d want to grab the poor guy by his lapels or messenger bag and say: The bitch doesn’t really love chili dogs that much – no one loves chili dogs that much! And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They’re not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they’re pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be. Oh, and if you’re not a Cool Girl, I beg you not to believe that your man doesn’t want the Cool Girl. It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics. There are variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants Cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn’t ever complain. (How do you know you’re not Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because 'I like strong women' is code for 'I hate strong women.'"

~ Gillian Flynn from Gone Girl
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 03, 2017, 08:24:59 PM
I don't see anything about film nerds in that quote. That's a pretty good unrelated straw man argument though.

And you're not quoting Gillian Flynn, you're quoting a character from Gone Girl, Amy Dunne, who is considered to be the villain of the story.

Have you seen how many women attend Comic-Con?

And comic fandom is much more narrow and hardcore group than film fandom.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 03, 2017, 08:58:53 PM
Comic-Con attendance:

Utah 2017 (https://utahvalley360.com/2017/09/18/icymi-salt-lake-comic-con-crowd-is-47-percent-women-provo-pride-festival-moves-to-downtown-provo/) - 40% women

San Diego 2012 (https://www.npr.org/2012/07/13/156747555/more-women-than-ever-at-san-diegos-comic-con) - 40% women

San Diego 2015 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2015/07/07/comic-con-2015-and-gender-parity-heres-why-the-geek-stereotype-is-nearly-dead/): 50% women

I can't find any more at the moment but there seems to be a trend.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Rooty Poots on December 03, 2017, 09:50:57 PM
I’m so glad y’all are responding and calling that guy out, because I was beginning to worry that Xixax was the kind of group that thinks that way as a herd.

Also, re The Dissolve: as a publication, it’s gone, but as a community, it’s still alive and growing, it’s just moved to a secret facebook group. One of the best film and pop culture communities online.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: FilmCell on December 03, 2017, 10:45:20 PM
And Film geeks are usually white dudes.

That's sort of where I was headed.  Let's turn the question around.  What director's fan base is almost exclusively female?  Is there even one?  What do women nerd-out about?  Which creative types (not actors--too easy) have their group of Fangirls?

Hey, you're not allowed to say those things. This is a safe space where the truth and statistics can be triggering.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 03, 2017, 11:19:25 PM
Sure, the types of movies we're into usually attract predominantly male fans. But your reasoning was... not the best, you have to admit.

Other perhaps more legit reasons:
- Representation (these movies are usually about men)
- Conditioning (girls are taught to like other movies)
- Other cultural reasons

But the culture is clearly changing.

My sister is 25 years old. She became a huge fan of the X-Files in her early teens. She was watching Breaking Bad before I knew about it. She started Game of Thrones in November, and now she's finished all 7 seasons. We've had hours of conversations about GoT, where she's made some very... dare I say "nerdy" observations that never occurred to me. I showed her Melancholia; she loved it and was raving about the ending. (Dancer is next, maybe.)

And yet, somehow, she is not ostracized by her peers, has no fear of "looking like a loser," and has not lost any "social currency."

And against all odds, she can still be a devoted fan of other things, like That 70s Show, the MCU, and Twilight.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 04, 2017, 12:00:32 AM
For whatever it's worth, I just searched the #PhantomThread hashtag on Twitter. Where there was an identifiable gender, I counted 15 men and 9 women. I stopped there, but that ratio seems to continue.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on December 04, 2017, 07:41:55 AM
Calculating all the IMDB ratings for Paul movies, here's the total gender matchup across all age brackets. This is going to skew more male due to the demographics who are more outspoken on the site.


Hard Eight:

Males: 7.3
Females: 7.1


Boogie Nights:

Males: 7.9
Females: 7.5

Magnolia:

Males: 8.0
Females: 7.6

Punch-Drunk Love:

Males: 7.4
females: 6.6

There will Be Blood:

Males: 8.2
Females: 7.8

The Master:

Males: 7.1
Females: 6.7

Inherent Vice:

Males: 6.7
Females: 6.4
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on January 06, 2018, 11:14:39 PM
A review from another site referred to Paul fanbase as being a bunch of testosterone-driven frat boys who want to appear intellectual by watching his films.


The statement may be hyperbolic and contrary, as the commentator dislikes his work, isn't there some truth that Xixax premiere director just happens to be liked primarily by the bros?  Not trying to rally the forum senses buds, just asking a simple honest question.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: BB on January 06, 2018, 11:31:19 PM
The bros like TWBB, Boogie Nights, and nothing else.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on January 07, 2018, 12:38:19 AM
It's off base in that I've searched long and hard, and there are few American auteurs that are making meaningful work these days.  How can we even begin to measure such a thing?

First, spitball who you think are the best directors working today.  I'm sticking to just Americans to try to make things simple.  Aronofsky, maybe, though I haven't seen mother! and didn't care for Black Swan.  I think for my money, he's probably the closest thing to PTA, and it's not even close.  I'm behind on what Wes Anderson is doing, but his older stuff doesn't have as deep an emotional resonance.  The Coen Brothers make too many movies and produce too many stinkers.  Soderbergh too.  He's like the Ryan Adams of film.  Solondz has made a couple okay films, but he's way too cynical, and way too obscure.  Todd Haynes, just too obscure.  Payne and O. Russell have slipped.  Lee fell off the deep end a long time ago.  Eastwood talks to chairs.  Larry Clark... haha.  Harmony Korine, just not polished enough.  The only other person I would consider is Christopher Nolan, but I really don't care for him.  Following sucked, Memento was overrated, and then he made remade Batman and I stopped caring.  Too bad David Gordon Green resorted to making stoner comedies.  15 years ago, he was supposed to be the next PTA.  Tarantino's kind of -- sold out isn't quite the word, but after Jackie Brown none of his work has had much soul.  Allen's body of work is not really visually oriented enough for us to consider him a film auteur.  He films glorified plays.  A lot of really good, funny plays, don't get me wrong.  But still.  Oh, and Scorsese isn't great.  Fincher?  Linklater?  Smith?  I like them all for various reasons, but they were afterthoughts on this post for good reason.  Still worth a mention.

I don't want to "appear intellectual" by loving PTA's films.  My intellectual exercise has led me to the conclusion that there is no one more skilled and consistent than Paul Thomas Anderson working today.

Not that IMDb is the be all end all arbiter of who is best, but they're a good indicator of quality.  Anything above a 7 is usually worth your time.  So for PTA, IMDb says:

Hard Eight 7.3
Boogie Nights 7.9
Magnolia 8.0
Punch-Drunk Love 7.3
There Will Be Blood 8.1
The Master 7.1
Inherent Vice 6.7
Junun 7.5
Phantom Thread 8.8 (!)

7.63 average.  Phantom Thread will come down soon enough, but still, that's pretty amazing.  I'm surprised at how low The Master rates, considering my own personal regard for it.  If you didn't know any better, you'd think PTA had been in a slump post CMBB.

As for Aronofsky:

Pi 7.4
Requiem for a Dream 8.3
The Fountain 7.3
The Wrestler 7.9
Black Swan 8.0
Noah 5.8
Mother! 6.8

7.24 average.  But, Aronofsky loses 1 point for the porno 'stache, and 1 point for making Noah, on pure principal.

I think the other Anderson is the only one who is comparable as far as his relationship to the camera goes.  Although to be fair, his strengths really lie in art direction.  His films are like moving picture books.  How does he stack up?

Bottle Rocket 7.1
Rushmore 7.7
Royal Tenenbaums 7.6
The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou 7.3
The Darjeeling Limited 7.2
Fantastic Mr. Fox 7.8
Moonrise Kingdom 7.8
The Grand Budapest Hotel 8.1

7.575 average.  Even with Wes Anderson's INCREDIBLY consistent output, he doesn't quite eclipse PTA.  This is probably partly because Phantom Thread's 8.8 is skewing things a tiny bit, but I am impressed to see it that close.  I think it's easy to write Wes off because his style is often imitated.  But you can't deny he makes solid films and does key things very well.  What also detracts from him, though, is that his films are comedic in nature.  It makes it hard for some people to take him seriously, and it becomes harder for him to truly plumb the depths of the human soul when so many moments are played for laughs, even as heartbreaking as they may be.

I'm betting Nolan will probably best PTA on this metric, but again, I don't care.  He doesn't meet my definition of auteur because of his affinity for popcorn cinema, and yawn inducing subject matter such as that of Dunkirk.  For me, his films don't have the emotional resonance the Andersons -- or even Aronofsky -- do for that matter.

Fine, I'll do Nolan, too:

Following 7.6
Memento 8.5
Insomnia 7.2
Batman Begins 8.3
The Prestige 8.5 (!) -- I had no idea that was so highly regarded
The Dark Knight 9.0 -- This is where IMDb fails, because the comic book stuff will really skew his rating
Inception 8.8
The Dark Knight Rises 8.4
Interstellar 8.6
Dunkirk 8.1

Average: 8.3(!).  If you didn't know any better, you'd think Nolan was the savior of cinema.  Nope, just really popular with the comic book crowd.

So maybe this isn't the best metric to illustrate this point.  But I think it does a good job of illustrating another: if any director were one that you could say were liked only because you were a "frat boy" -- or better yet, "comic book lover", it would be Nolan.

How does the GOAT measure up?

Fear and Desire 5.6
Killer's Kiss 6.7
The Killing 8.0
Paths of Glory 8.4
Spartacus 7.9
Lolita 7.6
Dr. Strangelove 8.5
2001: A Space Odyssey 8.3
A Clockwork Orange 8.3
Barry Lyndon 8.1
The Shining 8.4
Full Metal Jacket 8.3
Eyes Wide Shut 7.4 (that's a point too low -- needs another 15 years, I guess, to be appreciated)

Average: 7.8, with no comic books.  And order is restored to the world.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 07, 2018, 12:54:11 AM
A review from another site referred to Paul fanbase as being a bunch of testosterone-driven frat boys who want to appear intellectual by watching his films.

The statement may be hyperbolic and contrary, as the commentator dislikes his work, isn't there some truth that Xixax premiere director just happens to be liked primarily by the bros?  Not trying to rally the forum senses buds, just asking a simple honest question.

PTA writes a lot of stories about father/son relationships, so if his fanbase skews a bit male, that's probably why.

But if we're really naming the auteur directors that "bros" like, it's obviously Nolan and Tarantino. (And the ratings Ono posted from the male-dominated IMDb bear that out.)
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 07, 2018, 01:04:48 AM
Oh, and Scorsese isn't great.

http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=13783.0

I would fight you, but I'm actually not passionate about any of Scorsese's movies.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on January 07, 2018, 01:12:01 AM
Aw, that's okay.  That just about kinda sums up Scorsese though, doesn't it?  And I'm sorry I left out Lynch.  :oops:
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on January 07, 2018, 01:16:25 AM
A review from another site referred to Paul fanbase as being a bunch of testosterone-driven frat boys who want to appear intellectual by watching his films.

The statement may be hyperbolic and contrary, as the commentator dislikes his work, isn't there some truth that Xixax premiere director just happens to be liked primarily by the bros?  Not trying to rally the forum senses buds, just asking a simple honest question.

PTA writes a lot of stories about father/son relationships, so if his fanbase skews a bit male, that's probably why.

But if we're really naming the auteur directors that "bros" like, it's obviously Nolan and Tarantino. (And the ratings Ono posted from the male-dominated IMDb bear that out.)

That would go for most filmmakers, as they tend to be male and safely stay in their comfort zone making films featuring male protagonists. With few exceptions such as Todd Haynes, you don't see consistant quality contemporary American auteurs who make female-centered pictures. The strong gaps in the IMDB ratings eluded to assuming PTA fanbase being mainly male. 


Yes, Nolan and Tarantino definitely have a grip on the "bro" crowd. Hate to say to the fans of his but Kubrick seems to fall into the dudebro pantheon based off those ratings.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on January 07, 2018, 01:23:54 AM
Yeah, all the bros just go nuts over Barry Lyndon.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on January 07, 2018, 01:25:41 AM
Full Metal Jacket and A Clockwork Orange would fall under "bro" territory. Unlikely you're typical fraternity member is going to be caught watching Barry Lyndon, or they'll be bored by Eyes Wide Shut.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jenkins on January 07, 2018, 01:27:18 AM
That just about kinda sums up Scorsese though, doesn't it?

no
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on January 07, 2018, 01:28:35 AM
yes
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jenkins on January 07, 2018, 01:30:16 AM
it's just clearly not an objective conversation is what i'll say
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on January 07, 2018, 01:39:05 AM
And I'm sorry I left out Lynch.  :oops:


I'll chimed myself in more IMDB stats.

Eraserhead: 7.4
The Elephant Man: 8.2
Dune: 6.6
Blue Velvet: 7.8
Wild at Heart: 7.2
Twin Peaks: Fire Walks with Me: 7.2
Lost Highway: 7.6
The Straight Story: 8.0
Mulholland Drive: 8.0
Inland Empire: 7.0
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jenkins on January 07, 2018, 02:33:09 AM
i think the ono post was in partial play and i think it was a good play. it's tough to beat PTA in terms of how good he is. in terms of cultural impact and influence upon global cinema, Scorsese, whose last three have been homeruns. and Shutter Island is sitting at 8.1. so that works on the side of Scorsese not reaching his furthest and on the side of lol imdb scores. Lynch's impact upon the collective imagination isn't duplicable and he's a true rare bird. cultural impact, influence upon global cinema, and inspiration within a collective imagination tell me way, way more than imdb scores. i haven't even mentioned the breadth of the human condition Scorsese has explored, or how i think Shutter Island has a certain hilarity.

they're older though, that's a thing to. we've seen and felt their impact. we've seen and felt the impact of PTA too, but not to such a scale. he's a reference point. QT reached that scale, and he's got a 60s Manson movie ahead plus maybe Star Trek. Wes Anderson reached that scale, like ono mentioned. there's a certain elegance in PT's scale being of the interior variety, granted. like i granted how good he is. but it's pretty tough to say he's the unrivaled best, without even mentioning Spielberg except just now. and Malick. and let's see what you're doing when you're Clint Eastwood's age.

literally any other piece of outside data would be more interesting to me than the imdb score. but again, i think it was a playful intensity that began this, and PT fans are notorious for their intensity. PT is the best according to PT fans, who are many, so props.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: BB on January 07, 2018, 02:56:34 AM
There's definitely a general spike in attention being paid though. And this is after IV, probably his most divisive picture. It's been discussed elsewhere but the online film community seems to have really rallied around PTA in recent years, which I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) exceeds only the diehards.

I'm not really one to rate and rank so there's a disinclination to label him THE BEST, but there is a certain excitement associated with his films that I don't really get with other directors. Totally see the fun in hunting for a messiah too.

Rethinking the bro thing ... there are art bros. And PTA would be their fav. Are they less shameful than regular bros? I don't know.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Something Spanish on January 07, 2018, 10:06:04 AM
Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, King of Comedy, Goodfellas, After Hours, Casino, Bringing Out the Dead, WoWS, The Departed, weren't made by a great filmmaker?
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: ono on January 07, 2018, 11:08:21 AM
Here's where I'm coming from: Mean Streets bored me; Casino, while solid, is just Goodfellas all over again; and The Departed is not that great a movie and a remake to boot.  I haven't seen a couple of those on the list, but the point is, Scorsese isn't consistent and he repeats himself.  I don't deny he's made some great films.  Taxi Driver fits, but it's bro-nip if ever I've seen it.  Does that discredit him?  Nah.  But he sticks to the same genre.  A great filmmaker will do different things, and not keep going back to where he's comfortable.  Scorsese keeps going back to the crime well.  Plus, the films I've seen of his don't have an emotional resonance that makes for a great filmmaker.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jenkins on January 07, 2018, 11:33:26 AM
that's like just your opinion man, i can't make that any clearer. i agree with you that it's too bad you didn't see Silence, his most recent movie, packed with emotional resonance
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Something Spanish on January 07, 2018, 12:00:20 PM
But he sticks to the same genre.

He may revisit the same genre from time to time, understandable considering the man has done nearly 30 films, but he doesn't stick to the same one. He's done it all light/dark comedy, spiritual, drama, crime, biopic, thriller,period piece, a very eclectic filmmaker. I think the only Scorsese flick that's on the weak side is GoNY.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: eward on January 08, 2018, 06:51:21 AM
But he sticks to the same genre.

He may revisit the same genre from time to time, understandable considering the man has done nearly 30 films, but he doesn't stick to the same one. He's done it all light/dark comedy, spiritual, drama, crime, biopic, thriller,period piece, a very eclectic filmmaker. I think the only Scorsese flick that's on the weak side is GoNY.

GoNY contains enough greatness amidst the more "meh" elements to sustain itself, I think - the only film of his I truly do not care for is Shutter Island.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: BB on January 08, 2018, 07:48:00 AM
Have y'all seen New York, New York -- his musical? That's really the only one I wouldn't be happy to watch right now.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on January 22, 2018, 06:13:09 PM
The article that wilberfan linked to in another thread has PTA fans as being mansplainers who condescend to women when talking about film.

This may have been quoted here before.  We've been busted, gentlemen.

AN OPEN LETTER OF THANKS TO THE MEN WHO TELL ME WHO PAUL THOMAS ANDERSON IS

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-open-letter-of-thanks-to-the-men-who-tell-me-who-paul-thomas-anderson-is

Dear Men,

Thank you for telling me who critically acclaimed, Academy Award-nominated writer/director Paul Thomas Anderson is. Thank you for telling me he’s your favorite director — you must really know your stuff. Here I was floating around with no clue who this guy is — that must be why I literally have a huge gaping hole in my brain: all the missing Paul Thomas Anderson information!

Thank you for making sure I realize I don’t know anything at all about anything and especially not anything about your boy “P.T.” I really am learning so much about film from you, a financial consultant at Goldman Sachs!

I love hearing your hot-take on how Punch-Drunk Love was the film that finally legitimized the career of actor Adam Sandler (star of The Waterboy and Hotel Transylvania 2). About time someone broke that glass ceiling!

I have zero opinions about anything in my teeny Paul Thomas Anderson-less head. Please, tell me more about Boogie Nights. Quote it for me! There wouldn’t be any chance you have fun facts about Mark Wahlberg? I love that. Open your mouth and never close it until you have told me every single thing you know about Boogie Nights.

Thanks for stopping me from blabbering on with my “female” or “professional” perspective (I am a woman and work in the film industry but that’s so random of me to mention I’ll shut up). I like hearing what someone with a Blu-Ray DVD player and one idea for a screenplay about a guy who gets broken up with by a woman with big boobs but still smells her perfume everywhere he goes, like even his barrels of hand-rolled cigarettes start to smell like her, has to say about Boogie Nights.

I haven’t seen Phantom Thread yet, so thank you for describing each scene in detail. I probably wouldn’t have fully understood it on my own. I already forgot what a Paul Thomas Anderson is can you tell me again?

Thanks for still talking about Boogie Nights. Thank you for telling me how perfectly paced Paul Thomas Anderson’s screenplay is. I feel like I’m comprehending words for the first time because it’s coming from the mouth of someone whose mother once told him he’s very artistic.

Thank you for showing me your Magnolia poster.

Thanks for giving me your list of Paul Thomas Anderson’s films ranked best to worst according to you, owner of a Magnolia poster. Thank you for telling me that Boogie Nights is at the top of that list. Thank you for telling me Mark Wahlberg is your favorite actor because of Boogie Nights. Thank you for giving me more fun facts about Mark Wahlberg in Boogie Nights. I love that. Thanks for explaining the gritty sensitivity of Boogie Nights. Thank you for Boogie Nights. Thanks Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie. Nights. Boogie. Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights Boogie Nights.

Sincerely,
Woman who’s never seen Boogie Nights

[I actually have a female friend that could have written this--based on my PTA blather.  I better go check... ]


Do you think the fanbase of his films turn off many women from even approaching them on their own terms? Or is this just a case of being a small niche thing, as most females and males have never heard of his name, or most of his films. I'm wiling for all groups of people to appreciate his films and not have a crowd that is just predominately white males.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: modage on January 22, 2018, 06:33:55 PM
I think PTA's fanbase probably only skews as straight/male/filmnerd/whatever as the percentage of straight/male/whatever film nerds overall.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: BB on January 22, 2018, 06:37:55 PM
Damn, I work in the film industry (kinda) and nobody seems to care much about PTA at all. TWBB is highly regarded, but beyond that, I don't know. Haven't talked about Boogie Nights with anyone in years. Few have even seen IV or Magnolia. Where these dudes at?
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: wilberfan on January 22, 2018, 06:47:26 PM
Damn, I work in the film industry (kinda) and nobody seems to care much about PTA at all. TWBB is highly regarded, but beyond that, I don't know. Haven't talked about Boogie Nights with anyone in years. Few have even seen IV or Magnolia. Where these dudes at?

That's amazing to me.  Unless it's "just a job" to these guys, how could you work in an industry and not have enthusiasm (or at least awareness!) of one of it's foremost practitioners?  Are they clueless about other "big name directors" working at the moment?   Are they up on film history??
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: BB on January 22, 2018, 06:54:06 PM
A shocking majority aren't especially into movies. On sets, pre and post-production, distribution, film sales, tv. I can't explain it. Maybe all the movie people work at Goldman Sachs.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: polkablues on January 22, 2018, 07:02:58 PM
In my experience, the majority of people who work in the film industry are more populist movie fans than what you might call actual cinephiles. There are exceptions, of course, but they're the pleasant surprise rather than the norm.

A shocking majority aren't especially into movies. On sets, pre and post-production, distribution, film sales, tv. I can't explain it. Maybe all the movie people work at Goldman Sachs.

I'm pretty sure most people who work in distribution don't just not care about movies, they're actively hostile to the concept of them. They would be happier buying and selling pork futures.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: wilberfan on January 22, 2018, 07:09:11 PM
Last week I interviewed one of the special effects guys who worked on Boogie Nights--and he's never seen the film.  He did SFX for 30 years--and may not have seen the majority of the films he worked on (mostly horror/fantasy, etc.).  Never really thought about it before, but it makes sense that a lot of the "blue collar" guys & gals on a set wouldn't necessarily be cinephiles. 
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: eward on January 22, 2018, 07:18:31 PM
A shocking majority aren't especially into movies. On sets, pre and post-production, distribution, film sales, tv. I can't explain it. Maybe all the movie people work at Goldman Sachs.

I've found this to be true, as well. I work for Marvel - not particularly my bag, have to force a lot of empty enthusiasm for much of the content produced - and I find the general attitude towards cinema (with some exceptions, of course) is that it's almost passe. Being a cinephile ain't as cool as it used to be.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on January 22, 2018, 07:34:29 PM


A shocking majority aren't especially into movies. On sets, pre and post-production, distribution, film sales, tv. I can't explain it. Maybe all the movie people work at Goldman Sachs.

I'm pretty sure most people who work in distribution don't just not care about movies, they're actively hostile to the concept of them. They would be happier buying and selling pork futures.

If you read into just about the profiles of the vast majority of studio executives, with few exceptions that occurred mainly on the micro/indie level like the SPC people, they are in for the profit and couldn't possible care less about art. 
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: BB on January 22, 2018, 11:45:41 PM
... the general attitude towards cinema (with some exceptions, of course) is that it's almost passe. Being a cinephile ain't as cool as it used to be.

Some days it feels like cinema, at least non-blockbuster theatrical cinema, could go the way of opera at any minute. I'm certain it will still be around and still be wonderful for generations to come, but the audience is not what it was even five-ten years ago. Which is super strange given that we're kind of in the midst of a golden age right now. So many fantastic, adventurous movies have come out this decade -- but few among the general public are really talking about them (this is true of music right now too). Within the movie bubble online discussion is vibrant and enthusiastic, but I sense this is a pretty small and aging group all told. Still great, don't mean to denigrate it. Beyond a few weird friends, though, I'm not finding a great deal of interest irl and this despite being around movie and movie-adjacent environments all the time. Is what it is.

In my experience, the majority of people who work in the film industry are more populist movie fans than what you might call actual cinephiles. There are exceptions, of course, but they're the pleasant surprise rather than the norm.

I'm pretty sure most people who work in distribution don't just not care about movies, they're actively hostile to the concept of them. They would be happier buying and selling pork futures.

I suspect the attitudes of those in distribution may be responsible, in part, for cinema's diminishing station. By and large, they simply don't care to remain competitive -- both against other forms of entertainment, and as businesses in and of themselves. They don't know anything about what they're trying to sell or who they're trying to sell it to; how could they possibly know how to market it? There are some great people, though, doing great work, and I should really focus more on them.   

If you read into just about the profiles of the vast majority of studio executives, with few exceptions that occurred mainly on the micro/indie level like the SPC people, they are in for the profit and couldn't possible care less about art. 

That's always been the way and is probably true of most industries. While I've mostly come to terms with the way things are (and hold dear those odd pleasant surprise exceptions), the lack of interest I've seen expressed by independent and aspiring filmmakers still strikes me as peculiar. Twenty-five year old directors who love Christopher Nolan but hadn't heard of Following, Memento, Insomnia, or The Prestige. Aspiring screenwriters who have never read a script. A producer who had never seen a black and white movie. You do find yourself wondering what drew these people to such a high-risk, demanding, and thankless profession. 
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jviness02 on January 31, 2018, 10:45:14 PM
Here's where I'm coming from: Mean Streets bored me; Casino, while solid, is just Goodfellas all over again; and The Departed is not that great a movie and a remake to boot.  I haven't seen a couple of those on the list, but the point is, Scorsese isn't consistent and he repeats himself.  I don't deny he's made some great films.  Taxi Driver fits, but it's bro-nip if ever I've seen it.  Does that discredit him?  Nah.  But he sticks to the same genre.  A great filmmaker will do different things, and not keep going back to where he's comfortable.  Scorsese keeps going back to the crime well.  Plus, the films I've seen of his don't have an emotional resonance that makes for a great filmmaker.

You don't have to like the guy, but saying he sticks to the same genre is just flat out wrong. He's known for gangsters and crime, yes, but he's also done a musical, a female-driven character drama about a single mother, a spiritual/religious trilogy, biopics(one more traditional, one sports-related) a family film, a psychological thriller, a costume romantic drama, a Classic Hollywood remake, a couple of dark comedies that don't quite fit his "crime films" etc.

Regarding the lack of cinephiles in the industry: I work in the industry and half of the people have bad taste, 30% don't even really watch movies and the other 20% have pretty good taste. That's why so much shit is made. Sure, the studios make bland pictures, but most of the people on those bland pictures like them.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: wilberfan on February 01, 2018, 09:49:25 AM
I'll put this here.  Seems appropriate, demographically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB_QsKMzsXI
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: jviness02 on February 01, 2018, 10:51:53 AM
I'll put this here.  Seems appropriate, demographically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB_QsKMzsXI

This could go in the other thread about meeting PTA. He seemed pretty nice and giving of his time there.
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Robyn on February 03, 2018, 02:37:45 PM
PTA looks so done with everything. Never understood what purpose selfies serve.

is nice to have them as memories, no? I once shared a cigarette with a famous swedish person, and still have the cigarette butt saved somewhere. It could be the new trend! "excuse me Paul, you wanna blow my cigarette?"
Title: Re: Demographic of PTA fans
Post by: Punch Drunk Hate on February 04, 2018, 10:08:09 PM
Labelling films based on gender appeal is lazy, but could you classify Paul films as being "guy flicks?" In a couple of lists that countdown the greatest movies for men, Paul got cited with Boogie Nights, TWBB, and The Master. The IMDB ratings showed a gender dispute between how they approach his movies with men rating them higher then woman. This is intellectually weak argument to have, but there gotta be something that turns females away from his work even though he's consider one of the best American filmmakers around.


Sources:  http://www.craveonline.com/site/762939-100-guy-movies-everyone-see#/slide/50