Criterion News and Discussion

Started by Gold Trumpet, January 16, 2003, 06:18:19 PM

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SoNowThen

Any strong opinions on these Cassavetes movies? I've always wanted to see Shadows, Killing of a Chinese Bookie, and Husbands (which I wish was in this set), but I got through about 10 minutes of A Woman Under The Influence before I had to turn it off because I hated it so much. This was a few days after I was forced to watch his son's piece of shit She's So Lovely, which I think is on my top 5 most hated of all time list.

But this was almost four years ago now, maybe I'd really like it...


So, anybody wanna sell me on it?
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

godardian

Quote from: SoNowThenAny strong opinions on these Cassavetes movies? I've always wanted to see Shadows, Killing of a Chinese Bookie, and Husbands (which I wish was in this set), but I got through about 10 minutes of A Woman Under The Influence before I had to turn it off because I hated it so much. This was a few days after I was forced to watch his son's piece of shit She's So Lovely, which I think is on my top 5 most hated of all time list.

But this was almost four years ago now, maybe I'd really like it...


So, anybody wanna sell me on it?

I'm equivocal on Cassavetes... Pauline Kael liked him (as a person), but despised his work and his entire credo.

However, reading this gives some perspective (though this is written by a guy who recently said in Film Comment that Mulholland Dr. was terrible):

""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

cowboykurtis

Quote from: godardian
Quote from: SoNowThenAny strong opinions on these

Pauline Kael liked him (as a person), but despised his work and his entire credo.

not a fan of p kaels opinions
...your excuses are your own...

godardian

Quote from: cowboykurtis
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: SoNowThenAny strong opinions on these

Pauline Kael liked him (as a person), but despised his work and his entire credo.

not a fan of p kaels opinions

Me neither, most often (though I think she's a brilliant writer), but I do find myself agreeing with some of what she says about Cassavetes... what really separates "immediacy," "honesty," and "spontaneity" of the Cassavetes variety from the merely amateurish? It's a valid question when analyzing his works.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

SHAFTR

Quote from: godardian
Quote from: cowboykurtis
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: SoNowThenAny strong opinions on these

Pauline Kael liked him (as a person), but despised his work and his entire credo.

not a fan of p kaels opinions

Me neither, most often (though I think she's a brilliant writer), but I do find myself agreeing with some of what she says about Cassavetes... what really separates "immediacy," "honesty," and "spontaneity" of the Cassavetes variety from the merely amateurish? It's a valid question when analyzing his works.

I've seen Shadows and I was very unimpressed.
"Talking shit about a pretty sunset
Blanketing opinions that i'll probably regret soon"

godardian

Quote from: SHAFTR
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: cowboykurtis
Quote from: godardian
Quote from: SoNowThenAny strong opinions on these

Pauline Kael liked him (as a person), but despised his work and his entire credo.

not a fan of p kaels opinions

Me neither, most often (though I think she's a brilliant writer), but I do find myself agreeing with some of what she says about Cassavetes... what really separates "immediacy," "honesty," and "spontaneity" of the Cassavetes variety from the merely amateurish? It's a valid question when analyzing his works.

I've seen Shadows and I was very unimpressed.


Faces and, to a lesser degree, A Woman Under the Influence (despite what SNT says) are the ones to see, much more so than Shadows.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

soixante

Cassavetes is an important film artist, and every serious student of cinema should be familiar with his work.  You may not like his films, but you should still see them -- especially Shadows and Faces, which were ground-breaking independent films in the 1960's, a decade in which there was no independent film scene like there is now.

Cassavetes' work has been hugely influential, especially on Martin Scorsese.  In fact, Scorsese was Cassavetes' protege.  Cassavetes took Scorsese under his wing when Scorsese came out to Hollywood in the early 70's, and gave Scorsese a job cutting Minnie and Moskowitz.  The influence of Cassavetes is quite apparent on Mean Streets.  In fact, Cassavetes wrote Killing of a Chinese Bookie for Scorsese to direct, but Cassavetes ended up directing it himself.  If nothing else, the close ties between Cassavetes and Scorsese should indicate Cassavetes' importance.
Music is your best entertainment value.

SoNowThen

I know. Which is why I feel guilty about not wanting to buy this box set.


Part of me will always think of John as the goofy race-car driver taking fake corners in front of the worst back-projection of all time, in The Killers. Somehow that (unfairly) hurts any seriousness his movies might have...
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

godardian

Quote from: SoNowThenI know. Which is why I feel guilty about not wanting to buy this box set.


Part of me will always think of John as the goofy race-car driver taking fake corners in front of the worst back-projection of all time, in The Killers. Somehow that (unfairly) hurts any seriousness his movies might have...

The more preferred (or at least kinder) Cassavetes performance to remember is Rosemary's Baby.

My fave Cassavetes-influenced film is Husbands and Wives, which is actually much better (to me- anyone 'round here knows it's easily in my top 5 of all time and also unequivocally my favorite Woody Allen film) than any Cassavetes film I've seen.

What does everyone think of the Renoir box? They sound really good, though they have much less renown than Renoirs that are already part of the Criterion catalog.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

SHAFTR

Quote from: soixanteCassavetes is an important film artist, and every serious student of cinema should be familiar with his work.  You may not like his films, but you should still see them -- especially Shadows and Faces, which were ground-breaking independent films in the 1960's, a decade in which there was no independent film scene like there is now.

Cassavetes' work has been hugely influential, especially on Martin Scorsese.  In fact, Scorsese was Cassavetes' protege.  Cassavetes took Scorsese under his wing when Scorsese came out to Hollywood in the early 70's, and gave Scorsese a job cutting Minnie and Moskowitz.  The influence of Cassavetes is quite apparent on Mean Streets.  In fact, Cassavetes wrote Killing of a Chinese Bookie for Scorsese to direct, but Cassavetes ended up directing it himself.  If nothing else, the close ties between Cassavetes and Scorsese should indicate Cassavetes' importance.

I know all this, but I still am unimpressed with his films.

EDIT: films = film (shadows)
"Talking shit about a pretty sunset
Blanketing opinions that i'll probably regret soon"

SoNowThen

I went and got Faces from the library, fellow Criterion whores.

So we shall see...
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Gold Trumpet

Quote from: godardianWhat does everyone think of the Renoir box? They sound really good, though they have much less renown than Renoirs that are already part of the Criterion catalog.

From what I've heard, (haven't seen the movies) is that by Renoir's late career, he became more of a structural filmmaker relying on his advancing filmmaking skills instead of the stories he was known for in Grand Illusion and Rules of the Game. I'm really excited for this box set. Added upon that, Criterion has given the enticement of buying their dvds with some very beautiful (and just released) cover work for each film:

http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=243&bid=241

http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=244&bid=241

http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=242&bid=241

Also, there is news that Criterion is planning to release Jean Renoir's The River. For people here, this is mentionable because it is the Renoir film that Scorsese admitted to being his favorite by Renoir. From a post on the CC forum:

"A little over a week ago, I attended a screening of Jean Renoir's 'The River' at the Anthology Film Archives in NYC as part of the Walking Picture Palace series. In his introduction to the film, programmer Mark McElhatten mentioned that Criterion was working on a DVD of the film. 'The River' is a truly amazing film and I am sure that Criterion will do it justice."

Ravi

Has anyone here seen the films in the Renoir box set?

cine

Quote from: RaffiHas anyone here seen the films in the Renoir box set?
No and I won't be buying this box set either. But I will certainly put my money down for The River.  :-D

SiliasRuby

Quote from: CinephileBut I will certainly put my money down for The River.  :-D
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