Does The Matrix Make Sense?

Started by Mesh, May 12, 2003, 03:33:58 PM

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Sleuth

Well if you've only seen the first part once then you obviously understand it completely
I like to hug dogs

Myxo

Quote from: MeshI rewatched it last week (and I've now seen it a total of two times).  I was telling a friend how much I admired it as hyper-creative sci/fi-adventure.  But he found it to be "full of holes," and pointed out the question as to why the rebel characters had to make it to certain points in the Matrix (phones, usually) in order to "beam back" into their real selves onboard the Nebuchadnezzar (in similar fashion, btw, to the way the thieves in Time Bandits get around in time).  Was that a logical flaw for you?

Are there other potentially huge logisitical problems with The Matrix?  What are they?

I want it to be a good, sensible alternate world...but I feel like it must be illogical in certain ways....help?

Yeah. I watched "Back to the Future" the other night as well. I don't get the whole "time travel" part of the movie. Logically, it doesn't seem like it could work.

:roll:

Mesh

Quote from: halo_on
Yeah. I watched "Back to the Future" the other night as well. I don't get the whole "time travel" part of the movie. Logically, it doesn't seem like it could work.

:roll:

Don't be an ass.  Questioning the entire concept of "time travel" in Back to the Future would be like questioning the existence of the matrix in The Matrix.  That's not what I was doing at all.  I was picking out a detail that didn't seem to jive with the good logical sense made by the rest of the film's details.....

Apples, meet oranges.

8)

Pubrick

under the paving stones.

RegularKarate

P's always on top of things with the most appropriate Wiggum quotes.

Myxo

Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: halo_on
Yeah. I watched "Back to the Future" the other night as well. I don't get the whole "time travel" part of the movie. Logically, it doesn't seem like it could work.

:roll:

Don't be an ass.  Questioning the entire concept of "time travel" in Back to the Future would be like questioning the existence of the matrix in The Matrix.  That's not what I was doing at all.  I was picking out a detail that didn't seem to jive with the good logical sense made by the rest of the film's details.....

Apples, meet oranges.

8)

Ok, now I'm good and confused. So, let me paraphrase for you.

You don't like how people "wake up" from the Matrix by using phones? Your complaint is that "how" people get back to the real world isn't consistant with what exactly? I'm not getting how "logic" has anything to do with the general pace or flow of a film.

The Wachowski Brothers had to come up with a way for people to make it back from The Matrix. The idea of people finding exits is a real good way to move the plot along and heighten suspense.

You might also remember, that when Neo was first "awakened", they dialed into the Matrix. Remember that? They were trying to find his signal, or his "pod". There is a shot of a phone hooked into a computer I'm pretty sure. I think it was an old style rotary phone. So, getting people out of the Matrix by using phones makes sense to me. I donno. I never once thought it "didn't fit".

Gotta love allegory though. Thats the best part about The Matrix. Allegory.

Fully software, fully human.
Fully human, fully messiah.

Mesh

Quote from: halo_on
You don't like how people "wake up" from the Matrix by using phones? Your complaint is that "how" people get back to the real world isn't consistant with what exactly? I'm not getting how "logic" has anything to do with the general pace or flow of a film.

Sigh.  The Matrix isn't a place, it's a digital fabrication.  Therefore locations, such as phone terminals, don't exist in it, they're just programs that fool peole into thinking they're phones.  So, that's A. right there: I find it silly that people hallucinating the Matrix need to get to non-existent "places" within it so get out.  This concept seems beyond most people who've read me type and re-type it.  Whatever.  I've moved on to how dumb Episode II is.

Now:  B.  Why would an intelligent computer program a system to have exit portals for its slaves located at various spots that those same slaves use on a daily basis?  Why would they allow them in and out anyway?  You don't make a prison with front gates that open wide everytime someone flushes a toilet.

And, C.  "I'm not getting how 'logic' has anything to do with the general pace or flow of a film."  If something's illogical in a film that had been up to that point pretty logical, it makes me pause and think about its illogical nature rather than just sit back and enjoy.  For me, the two are often inextricable, depending on what kind of movie we're dealing with.  In 8 1/2,  OK, no problem, it's illogical and dream-like.  But for The Matrix, no: the film sells itself as a study in what AI will eventually do to humanity, the philosophy of that situation, and how to overcome and deal with both.  Thus, a movie that tries its hand at philosophy while at once committing errors of logic, to me, has a real problem.  And that's that.

Quote from: halo_onThe Wachowski Brothers had to come up with a way for people to make it back from The Matrix. The idea of people finding exits is a real good way to move the plot along and heighten suspense.

Now, taking into account what I did say above, remember that I did not make this thread to quibble about the plot or suspense of The Matrix, both of which I think are pretty much fine.  It's an enjoyable film, in general.  But, as the thread title asks, "Does it make sense?"

Quote from: halo_onYou might also remember, that when Neo was first "awakened", they dialed into the Matrix. Remember that? They were trying to find his signal, or his "pod". There is a shot of a phone hooked into a computer I'm pretty sure. I think it was an old style rotary phone. So, getting people out of the Matrix by using phones makes sense to me. I donno. I never once thought it "didn't fit".

I did.

Quote from: halo_onGotta love allegory though. Thats the best part about The Matrix. Allegory.

How does this relate?

Quote from: halo_onFully software, fully human.
Fully human, fully messiah.

What?

Raikus

Can't we lock this thread already? I think it's safe to say no one's ever going to explain Matrix in a way to shut Mesh up.
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free, silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands, with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves, let me forget about today until tomorrow.

Kal

what I think is that if NEO is the one he doesnt need to fight the agents and do all that crap... he would directly be able to blow everything up...

I dont remember the phrase that Morpheous says, but it was that THE ONE would be able to do whatever he wanted inside the matrix

The fact that he cant means that maybe the one theory is BS

Raikus

Quote from: andykwhat I think is that if NEO is the one he doesnt need to fight the agents and do all that crap... he would directly be able to blow everything up...

I dont remember the phrase that Morpheous says, but it was that THE ONE would be able to do whatever he wanted inside the matrix

The fact that he cant means that maybe the one theory is BS
You did, y'know, see the second movie, right?
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free, silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands, with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves, let me forget about today until tomorrow.

penfold0101

I just read all the way through this and I also cannot see what you don't get!

but here is my attempt to help!

Quote from: MeshSigh.  The Matrix isn't a place, it's a digital fabrication.  

This is the first problem, When the matrix people are wandering round the "real world" (Zion) the matrix is not real.

BUT as soon as you plug your head into the matrix, your reality becomes the matrix.

Neo: I thought it wasn't real.
Morpheus: Your mind makes it real.
Neo: If you're killed in the Matrix, you die here?
Morpheus: Your body cannot live without the mind.

No one in the matrix is "hallucinating" its there reality until they find a hard line and can be unplugged
It takes Neo the whole film to adjust to this, remember, "there is no spoon" he couldn't understand the kid didn't bend a spoon, he just altered a program that is a spoon!

(I feel like I’m repeating what 10 other people have said!)

Here is an idea how did the agents get in the matrix? They must have been installed, surely they didn't start in the matrix, they didn’t need them in the beginning.

In the first fight of reloaded.
Neo: "Humm upgrades"
How did the agents get up graded? The agent program must have been reinstalled or at least a patch.

How were they installed? down hardlines? Well there is no evidence to support this but its a possibility. But if the robots can edit/alter the program they need to access it in some way, the hackers then exploit this to get themselves in.


Raikus provides the best slimily
Quote from: RaikusWhy is this concept so hard to get?

The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar get into the virtual reality program the same way you hack into a system. They find a back door (or the hardline) and insert themselves into the program. It just so happens that the programs recognizes these entry points as telephones. Not all telephones are entry points to the Matrix program, but all entry points are telephones. They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point. The cell phones are just communication devices between the Operator (crew still on the ship) and those who's consciousness have been inserted into the Matrix (think Star Trek communicators). The number they can call on the cell phones in the Matrix represents a frequency that exists in the real world--hence they are merely using them as radios to the contact on the ship.

The reason that they can't exists "anywhere" while in the Matrix is because it exists with rules based on the real world. The program is set up so you can't just access another piece except by the hardline insertion. Obviously Neo breaks this principle as much as possible in Revolutions when he flies to get to Morpheus and Trinity. But that's all he can do. He can't beam directly to another place because, even though he realizes it's a program, he can't break these rules.

All rules can be bent to a degree but none of them can be completely broken (well the flying at the end is a bit suspect, but hey he is bending the rules of gravity)

Quote from: Mesh
I find it silly that people hallucinating the Matrix need to get to non-existent "places" within it so get out
once your inside it all exists the phone is real to the users mind. The hardline is just a back door in and out of the software.

Right I haven’t got time now to move on to B & C now.
My best advice is to watch both films again and think about what people here have said.
"There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning. And that, I think, was the handle - that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting - on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave.
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high - water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." - Hunter S. Thompson.

Pubrick

Quote from: penfold0101(I feel like I'm repeating what 10 other people have said!)
u are man, and once again it has been explained adequately. the problem is ppl don't pay attention, it's almost like they don't WANT the films to make sense, even when it's explained in different ways. the proper term for this is Cognitive Dissonance. i bet they suck at math.
under the paving stones.

Mesh

Quote from: P
Quote from: penfold0101(I feel like I'm repeating what 10 other people have said!)
u are man, and once again it has been explained adequately. the problem is ppl don't pay attention, it's almost like they don't WANT the films to make sense, even when it's explained in different ways. the proper term for this is Cognitive Dissonance. i bet they suck at math.

Dude, c'mon.  Play fair.  I've read and re-read this thread, trying to find an explanation for this issue that satisfies me....and none of them quite do.  Why do you find it necessary to accuse me of not listening?  We're just not on the same page yet.....calm down, no need for personal attacks.

Now:

Hacking Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and whoever else into The Matrix is a lot like, say, playing an online game in our real world, isn't it?  You find a way to connect to the game engine and to the rest of the players, you have your character move around, interact with other players and things, etc., etc.  For a  while, your consciousness is inside the game, but, like Morpheus and Trinity and Neo, you know the game is not real, it's a simulation.

Now let's say someone starts mouthing off to you and you decide you want out of the game.  No don't then have to find your way over to the nearest simulated carrier pigeon in order to quit....You just type "quit" or you turn off the machine that put you into the game in the first place.

That there is why hacking back out of The Matrix is illogical to me.  I understand why it had to be written into the script; if The Matrix in the movie were that easy to get into and out of, it wouldn't have been half as much fun or exciting.  But that doesn't mean it makes sense.....I still don't think it does.  That's why I made this thread and that's why I'm still posting in it.  If that pisses someone off enough to close, lock, or delete this thing, then so be it.  I'll lose no sleep.  We're just talking about movies, ain't we?

Pubrick

Quote from: MeshIf that pisses someone off enough to close, lock, or delete this thing, then so be it.  I'll lose no sleep.  We're just talking about movies, ain't we?
now who needs to calm down.

i see what ur saying tho, i never thought it made sense in any real technical sense plus the phone thing is a minor point in the grand scheme of what the film is doing, sumone else can finish explaining that stuff tho.. personally i don't care if ppl aren't feeling it. at least we agree on GT.
under the paving stones.

Raikus

Quote from: MeshDude, c'mon.  Play fair.  I've read and re-read this thread, trying to find an explanation for this issue that satisfies me....and none of them quite do.  Why do you find it necessary to accuse me of not listening?  We're just not on the same page yet.....calm down, no need for personal attacks.
You're like a Matrix succubus, aren't you?
Quote from: Mesh
Hacking Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and whoever else into The Matrix is a lot like, say, playing an online game in our real world, isn't it?  You find a way to connect to the game engine and to the rest of the players, you have your character move around, interact with other players and things, etc., etc.  For a  while, your consciousness is inside the game, but, like Morpheus and Trinity and Neo, you know the game is not real, it's a simulation.

Now let's say someone starts mouthing off to you and you decide you want out of the game.  No don't then have to find your way over to the nearest simulated carrier pigeon in order to quit....You just type "quit" or you turn off the machine that put you into the game in the first place.

That there is why hacking back out of The Matrix is illogical to me.  I understand why it had to be written into the script; if The Matrix in the movie were that easy to get into and out of, it wouldn't have been half as much fun or exciting.  But that doesn't mean it makes sense.....I still don't think it does.  That's why I made this thread and that's why I'm still posting in it.  If that pisses someone off enough to close, lock, or delete this thing, then so be it.  I'll lose no sleep.  We're just talking about movies, ain't we?
I'll try this once more and then really give up. Think of the Matrix as a mental beartrap. The purpose of the Matrix is to hold people's consciousness. It's a trap (not to get too Ackbar on you). Even if I step in a beartrap, I can't get out unless I know how to release the spring. Just because I know there's a beartrap on my leg, doesn't mean I can say "Merci" and I'm suddenly free. The same thing applies to the Matrix. 99.9% of the people don't know they're in the trap, but those .01% that do still can't get out of it unless they're provided a way.

And with that, I'm spent. If you have further comments/complaints please refer to your local B&N Re:Matrix for Dummies.
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free, silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands, with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves, let me forget about today until tomorrow.