Xixax Film Forum

My bread and butter through December. Think this is really going to turn out well.

This all feels too on the nose *HONK HONK*

From the casting, to the influences it's been flapping up and down on it's dickie, I can only feel like I've seen it already.

Hide those cards Mr. Old-School-Hangover, Jokers should be wild.










yet I'd gladly eat those words like a peach for hours.

If one has even a passing interest in superhero films and like, other films, I'm not sure how you wouldn't at least be curiously excited about this.

I'd be more excited if someone other than Todd Phillips was directing.

Also hi mod!

Apparently this is a heavy Trump allegory with Thomas Wayne serving as a metaphor for the president. He's the mayor which incites protests and riots from the disenfranchised. Joaquin's Joker becomes an icon and mascot for the protests as he rallies against Wayne which leads him to cross paths with De Niro who must be some Alex Jones type media personality.

I'm fed up with all this Trump allegory bullshit in film and TV at the moment. What's the point? There's literally no subtext with Trump, so what's the point in rehashing it all when all everyone really wants is some escapism?

Quasi-related, perhaps the best metaphor for Trump and his election I've seen (https://twitter.com/khanoisseur/status/992832886414893056?lang=en).

Just watched the first De Niro shot go off without a hitch. 2 1/8 pages, all in long unbroken takes, two steadicams flying around as well as a centrally located 80s-era broadcast camera shooting De Niro dead on.

De Niro looks like De Niro. Joaquin is thin and creepy, on the verge of going Full-Tilt Freddie. The set is electric today. De Niro's presence changes things.

Sorry if you already mentioned this in the chat box or somewhere else but, are you working on this? if so, what work are you doing there?

I'm a production assistant, working technically out of the office, but I find myself on set frequently, especially during studio days. And being in my position makes that extra fun, because when I'm on-set I'm usually untethered to any direct responsibility, so I'm free to just kind of wander around and take whatever vantage point I please. Everyone knows me, so for the most part, they let me. It's good fun.

Sounds like a blast.  Has Marc Maron showed up to do his scenes yet?

Yes, today was his first day! He didn't have much to do, but tomorrow he sure does. I'm oddly excited/nervous for him haha. (I've been a WTF devotee since it began, and imagining him grappling with the pressure of acting with De Niro and Joaquin in his lovably stressed mind has me smiling .)

You're going to have an interesting day, eward...

Robert De Niro: suspicious package sent to actor's New York property (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/25/suspicious-package-sent-robert-de-niro-attempted-pipe-bombings)

Yep, studio's got security doing some hardcore vetting in the mailroom. Just attempting to get on with the day's work with a bizarre terroristic cloud hovering over us. Not weird at all.

Imagine the shit show this would be if it were a left-leaning nut targeting Republicans?

Crazy. Between this and the Joaquin incident, you might want to start keeping a journal of your experiences. Would be great fodder for your memoirs when you're a big-shot down the road.

I think that might prove a very worthwhile idea! We have another 6 weeks, we'll see what's in store.

Also, just want to report that Maron is fucking killing it. I'm like oddly proud of him. There's a very interesting one-sided sense of intimacy that develops when you religiously listen to someone's podcast for the better part of a decade, it gets so you really feel like you know the person, like you've grown along with them -- and he being so effusively honest and all, I'm rooting for him like he's an old friend, but to him I'm a complete stranger.

Quote from: eward on October 25, 2018, 10:38:44 AM
Also, just want to report that Maron is fucking killing it. I'm like oddly proud of him. There's a very interesting one-sided sense of intimacy that develops when you religiously listen to someone's podcast for the better part of a decade, it gets so you really feel like you know the person, like you've grown along with them -- and he being so effusively honest and all, I'm rooting for him like he's an old friend, but to him I'm a complete stranger.

Thanks for sharing this parenthetical on Maron.  I share your one-sided sense of knowing him so well.  It's a relief to hear that he's apparently nailing this gig.  (I spent waaaay too much time one day at the open house for 'The Cat Ranch' when it sold earlier this year.  It's such a trippy feeling to actually occupy a physical space that you otherwise only experience in your head.) 

So we've been filming this big scene involving Joaquin and De Niro, and a little Maron, and a whole lot of extras, with SEVEN CAMERAS, all in full, 5-6 minute takes. Joaquin utterly committed, unhinged, changing things up from take to take, De Niro not so much (though he's still solid-as-fuck, and just paying witness to a bonafide legend doing his thing, even sometimes not quite nailing it at first, is humbling. Just - holy fuck, he's human! And, what's more, dealing with the psychic weight of all the sudden postal-pipebomb bullshit.) This is a wild experience, even if I'm only more or less a wallflower witness to the coolest shit.

Chatted with Maron at crafty on Friday. We talked about Monty Python, because he had just done Python week on WTF, Don Quixote (spin-off from the Python talk, Gilliam, etc) and who he thinks he might be able to interview from the Joker team. De Niro he doesn't feel too sure about, though he's going to try; he said Joaquin feels possible, if not guaranteed; and Todd he can absolutely get, he said with a sly grin. He's a really nice, even kind of shy dude. He perks up once you mention you're a fan though. He eats with everyone else too, sort of quietly. I recall a moment that I found charming when a background lady was having trouble with a portable tea kettle, and Maron suddenly, kind of intensely in an avuncular way, sidled-up and set about insisting on its immediate functionality, he having just used it himself. It just felt very - Maron. My fandom certainly colors my perception of him personally, of course, but I was pleased by our interaction and was moved to grin for most of the day afterward. I like him.

Favorite overheard tidbit of the day... As De Niro walked past me, ahead of two assistants, one said to the other: "Ugh did he take his teeth out again?"

Quote from: eward on October 29, 2018, 02:27:37 PM
I recall a moment that I found charming when a background lady was having trouble with a portable tea kettle, and Maron suddenly, kind of intensely in an avuncular way, sidled-up and set about insisting on its immediate functionality, he having just used it himself. It just felt very - Maron.

Oh, that's incredibly Maron. Do you remember that tea kettle incident he talked about a few months ago on the show?

I don't! What happened?

http://www.wtfpod.com/dispatches/i-came-in-hot

SEPTEMBER 10, 2018
I CAME IN HOT.
Hello, Folks!

L'Shana Tova, Jews! Happy 5779!

How are you all holding up? I miss Minnesota already. I was just there. The weather was perfect. What a relief to be in the nice cool breeze of the Midwest. What a relief to be on the road.

It's almost impossible to clear my head when I'm home. There's always something to do. Something coming at me and when there isn't, I find something. I guess it's just my nature or maybe it's just the nature of being self-employed and basically having three or four jobs. Podcast, standup, writing and acting. Shit never stops. I'm not complaining because I love the work but I can't get a break. Because if I have an hour-and-a-half of free time each day there's still a ton of routine maintenance and house shit and errands and food stuff to do. So, getting out on the road gets me some space. Physically and mentally.

That's not always great either. My mind can get pretty out there, but then I reel it all in and see what's at the end of the hooks and fillet those monsters on stage.

The crowds in Minneapolis are great. Smart people, cultured people, polite people, sweetly passive-aggressive people. I'm sure there are plenty of assholes there but I think they are polite.

I've been aggro, short-fused, ready to pounce for a week or so. Not sure what is going on. Maybe I just feel over-extended. When I got to Minneapolis I just wanted to get my room set up and lock in, relax, write, think. I came in hot. Told the guy at check in I wanted a water kettle so I can make my tea in the room. He said they didn't have one. I thought, what kind of upscale hotel doesn't have one? I don't always stay at upscale places but lately I've realized that I have no wife or kids and I'm not sure why I'm not spending money on nice things. It pissed me off that they didn't have one. I told him they should get one, they're cheap. He said it wasn't his job, basically. That just pissed me off. So, after I checked in, I walked to Target and bought one. Fifteen bucks. I stomped back to the hotel with it under my arm, not in a bag, to make a point. I was so ready to just righteously, aggressively but causally, go in there, tell him it was cheap and they could keep it. I had even planned to tweet a pic of it and tag the hotel with some snotty, snarky bullshit remark. I had my cause.

It's sad when the world is out of control and scary that the battles we chose to fight can be stupid and petty just to feel like we have control of something, anything.

I got back and he was gone. A pregnant woman was now behind the counter. She saw me walk in, steamed, carrying the box, and she said, 'Oh you bought one. I found you one. It's in your room.' Defeated and humbled I say, 'Thanks.' Then the killer line. She says, 'I can return that for you.' It was perfect. Polite and annihilating. Masterful passive-aggression but genuine. She would've done it. I said, 'Nah, I'll do it tomorrow.'

I was in Minnesota for 24-hours and I had been to Target twice and returned something. That's the life I'm living.

I need to be humbled a bit. Taken down a notch. It grounded me. Got me level for the shows.

Thanks for coming out Minneapolis.

Today I talk to Billy Eichner about how he became Billy Eichner. On Thursday I talk to comic/writer Adam Cayton-Holland about his memoir which moves through his sister's suicide. Heavy but also funny and sweet. Good talks.

Enjoy!

Boomer lives!

Love,

Maron

Oh man, you jogged my memory, I do remember that now! That's actually a pretty excellent episode all around.

Pics from yesterday. He's Freddie-thin.

http://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/4184804/joaquin-phoenix-nyc-2018-november-joker-29/ (http://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/4184804/joaquin-phoenix-nyc-2018-november-joker-29/)

Wow, he's unrecognizable! I wasn't quite sure what to make of the first still of him that came out, but these pictures have me so pumped. You can see they're taking it into throwback comic book land instead of Jared Leto's odd mumble rapper interpretation. The red suit draws even more connections to 'King Of Comedy'! I'm sure it's influence will be written all over this film.

Yeah the KoC influence is pretty heavy in the script, too. A fine beacon of inspiration.

that's unfortunate

Not to my mind, but what comparisons can be made between the two are rather superficial anyhow, so it oughtn't be a reason to worry too much, if that doesn't appeal to you.

the crazy idolizing the crazy promises diminished returns, was on my mind.

I just want to say that—at first—I read KoC as Knight of Cups. Strange seconds.

later on i realize there's not much they can take from it, and i just hadn't liked the sound of it

Quote from: Drenk on November 19, 2018, 05:45:07 PM
I just want to say that—at first—I read KoC as Knight of Cups. Strange seconds.

Ha! Strange indeed. That said, I think Joaquin would be perfect for a Malick film, particularly modern day, increasingly puzzling but oh-we-love-you-anyway Malick.

First Poster

The King of Comedy homage remains conspicuous.

(https://i.imgur.com/ngrp6xh.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2E1aBQ5yA0

Nice. Joaquin seems into it. Some shots seem generic, especially with the mother, or maybe it just makes me think of a lesser version of You Were Never Really Here. Actually, it often looks like the Joaquin Phoenix Universe. It's hard not to think of The Master. His skinny face is a mask.

This looks great! Many of the scenes I was present for are in the trailer, great to finally see which shots they wound up going with (assuming these are all in the final cut).

I was sceptical before. The poster got me excited. And after the trailer I'm all in and can't wait to see this! The King of Comedy reference comes across a lot in the trailer.

joaquin looks so fucking good.

eward, can you give me some story details I can sell to all the nerds online?? THANK YOU.

Quote from: Robyn on April 03, 2019, 10:52:38 AM
eward, can you give me some story details I can sell to all the nerds online?? THANK YOU.

They're all too busy bitching about how this movie will retroactively ruin Heath Ledger's performance in The Dark Knight somehow.

Anyway, this looks good as hell.

Quote from: Nails9 on September 21, 2018, 11:19:44 PM
This all feels too on the nose *HONK HONK*

From the casting, to the influences it's been flapping up and down on it's dickie, I can only feel like I've seen it already.

Hide those cards Mr. Old-School-Hangover, Jokers should be wild.










yet I'd gladly eat those words like a peach for hours.

This looks fun, and I am excited, But it does still feel like I've already seen it already
So many great moving pieces, in front of and behind the camera...

...but I just don't like Philips.

*PTA appears as Jiminy Cricket on my shoulder* "Don't be too harsh, dummy. One must love all things movie!"

I know! But, as good as this looks, if it does turn out to be a stinkpiece, it will only confirm how critical the captain is of a ship.
 
Either way, I already got my bib on already.

SPOILURZ:

Do you think this is a pre-Joker Joker story?
Like Joaquin will die in the end but his influence is carried on by who ever goes on to play the next Joker in the next Batman?
Also, I already hate the fanbase this movie will have.
*PTA Cricket hits me with a frying pan*

I am willing to secretly answer anyone's speculative questions definitively over PM, if you'd rather not wait till October.

Also fun kinda-brag: the notebook he's seen scribbling in from the overhead shot in the trailer: Joaquin personally (in collaboration with our Art Dept) did a fantastic mock-up of it with each page containing a manically scribbled personal diatribe against every department head and their underlings, nearly everyone mentioned by name, above or below the line, with each copy signed. Production merch can be awesome sometimes.

I hope he kills Bruce Wayne's father in what would be an happy ending.

If you pause the trailer around the 45 second mark, you can see my name rolling up the TV screen!  :yabbse-grin:

Quote from: eward on April 04, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
If you pause the trailer around the 45 second mark, you can see my name rolling up the TV screen!  :yabbse-grin:

So, Xixax iz now DCEU Canon (?)

It certainly appears so.  :yabbse-cool:

Quote from: eward on April 04, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
If you pause the trailer around the 45 second mark, you can see my name rolling up the TV screen!  :yabbse-grin:

nice!!

It's in competition in Venice. Will it be...good?

guilty of hypocrisy perhaps, but otherwise nails it

https://www.twitter.com/genuinebrendan/status/1164252048897953792

I'd be an hypocrit too if it could give me a part alongside De Niro!

I like it.

Oh man that zapped me right back to last fall. The week we shot all the DeNiro/Maron/backstage material was such an electric experience, and seeing those shots in their final form is making me feel all warm and tingly. Can't wait to see this (on 70!).

More and more convinced this thing is an under-the-radar The Master sequel.

i don't know how this one will shake out for me. i can sense that the marketing will tire me and i should avoid reading early praises. i'll attempt to not dislike it before i see it, in order to maybe see it, but that's going to be tough

90% of Film Twitter is pre-hating the movie. You'll be safe!

do you want to quote them? if not it's okay, it doesn't really matter

https://twitter.com/JeremyMonjo/status/1166753288504528896

https://twitter.com/coopercooperco/status/1166748653064806403

https://twitter.com/fauxbeatpoet/status/1166768176501350400

https://twitter.com/JohnnyBeeGoode/status/1166761184458104832

All the jokes about Todd Phillips being in competition at Venice.

The script has leaked and people hate it.

https://twitter.com/briannazigs/status/1166761758813577221

i like the type of tweets you read. i appreciate that you shared them

the best way for me to see this movie would be without outside influence, that's all i'm positive about. i don't think it's going to be an easy path and i don't know how it'll all end up

and eward shared a twitter quote too, thanks too. yeah i like this anti-joker vibe because it's reacting against the same voices that i'm saying sour me

Pulling back from my obvious bias as much as I can, I have to admit that some of the specific criticisms I've caught wind of from folks who managed to sneak a peek at the script aren't exactly wrong...

I'm there for Joaquin physical performance. I'm expecting competent filmaking, I really love some of the shots I've seen, even if they're heavily inspired by movies the bro culture embraced; it would have to be a complete clusterfuck if it really ends up being an alt-right manifesto. I'm worried about the girlfriend. In what world does he end up with a gorgeous woman?

But sympathy for a psychopath, especially a protagonist, is a truck I like in movies. It's never an apology of anything. Once again: it would have to be really bad for me to hate that angle.

yeah that's a level perspective

it's complicated for me in that the psychopath here is a pop culture celebration. however well he's depicted he's imaginary. however well suffering is depicted that's not real. it's illusory and that's escapism. and maybe my best escapes happen in other ways

Quote from: Drenk on August 28, 2019, 01:57:11 PM
the bro culture

Created by some of its key players, the creative team behind Road Trip, Old School, and The Hangover franchise!

https://twitter.com/hicoolercam101/status/1166799296923979776

This one made me Laugh.Inside.Out.

https://twitter.com/melvillmatic/status/1166879070614949888

That kind of over the top praise is what jenkis anticipated. Personally, it cracks me up. They're like a broken record every time a Brand Movie is released.

https://twitter.com/firstshowing/status/1167721654656655362

he's an adult who's unable to believe in the existence of a Joker movie within a world potentially unable to handle its audacity

lmao. it's just veiled nonsense. within substantive comments being made, what's most disconcerting to me is its comparison to The King of Comedy, which is a flat movie thematically speaking

(https://i.imgur.com/duzclGol.png)

Joker is currently enjoying positive critical buzz.
However, I imagine things are going to get a great deal more divisive.
The critics that love it really love it but the critics that hate it really hate it.

A great reason for this strong emotion is in part due to the film's political leanings.
Some feel it is a potently rebellious antidote for the Trump age, mass shooters and incels.
Others feel it is an emblematic validation of those very problems.

https://youtu.be/R1cdJmDZMQw

It's politically very superficial. The script, at least.

Since The Dark Knight, the Joker has been an inspirational figure for angry, lonely white dudes on the internet: some people will see what they want to see. A lot of men will never see the irony in Fight Club. Some people will read a religious text and decide to kill some folks. Etc.

if Uncut Gems was being celebrated like this that'd be more exciting basically

I just hope after this (after he wins an Oscar?), Phoenix retires this kind of role. His acting has been stale and a little "off" for me lately. Ever since that Woody Allen movie.

I don't agree; outside of Joker, he's not really trying to recapture Freddie, his part on the Ramsay flick was its own thing, and The Sister Brothers is such a bad movie that I had forgotten that Phoenix was awful in it, but that's only one example. He did play Jesus, too, right? I haven't imagined this?

Quote from: Drenk on September 01, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
I don't agree; outside of Joker, he's not really trying to recapture Freddie, his part on the Ramsay flick was its own thing, and The Sister Brothers is such a bad movie that I had forgotten that Phoenix was awful in it, but that's only one example. He did play Jesus, too, right? I haven't imagined this?

Yeah, he played it exactly like a grumpy Doc Sportello IMO.

Everything lately is a damaged/depressed guy, an alcoholic, or a depressed/damaged alcoholic. It's all blurred together.

Glenn Kenny weighs in and, yunno, I believe him. (light spoilers)

JOKER - **

In mainstream movies today, "dark" is just another flavor. Like "edgy," it's an option you use depending on what market you want to reach. And it is particularly useful when injected into the comic book genre.   

Darkness no longer has much to do with feelings of alienation the filmmaker wants to express or purge, as was the case with a film like "Taxi Driver." It's not about exploring uncomfortable ideas, as was done in "The King of Comedy." Do you think Todd Phillips, who co-wrote and directed "Joker," and references those movies so often you might expect that Martin Scorsese was enlisted as an executive producer here as a way of heading off a plagiarism lawsuit, really cares about income inequality, celebrity worship, and the lack of civility in contemporary society? I don't know him personally but I bet he doesn't give a toss. He's got the pile he made on those "Hangover" movies—which some believe have indeed contributed to the lack of civility in etc.—and can not only buy up all the water that's going to be denied us regular slobs after the big one hits, he can afford the bunker for after the bigger one hits.

Which is not to go so far as to say that if you buy into "Joker," the joke's on you. (Except in the long run it really is.) If you live to see Joaquin Phoenix go to performing extremes like nobody's business, this movie really is the apotheosis of that. As Arthur Fleck, the increasingly unglued street clown and wannabe stand-up comic down and out in what looks like 1980s Gotham (although who knows what period detail looks like in fictional cities), Phoenix flails, dances, laughs maniacally, puts things in his mouth that shouldn't go there, and commits a couple of genuinely ugly and disgusting crimes with ferocious relish.

Much has been made, by Warner, and I guess DC Comics, of the fact that this is meant as a "standalone" film that has no narrative connection to other pictures in the DC Universe, but that's having your cake and eating it too when you still name your lunatic asylum "Arkham" and your cinematic DC Universe is changing its Batmen every twenty minutes anyway. Maybe what they really mean is that this is the first and last DC movie that's going to be rated R.

Which rating it thoroughly earns. The violence in this movie means to shock, and it does. Fleck's alienation in the early scenes evokes Travis Bickle's, but this movie is too chicken-livered to give Fleck Bickle's racism, although it depicts him mostly getting hassled by people of color in the first third. Fleck is also fixated with a Carson-like talk-show host played by Robert De Niro, reversing the "King of Comedy" player positions. He also likes the black woman down the hall from him, played by Zazie Beetz. The casting is not just meant to give the movie bragging rights on the zeitgeist curve, but to evoke Diahnne Abbott in both "Taxi Driver" and "Comedy." Fleck's seemingly successful wooing of the character is a jaw-dropper that had me thinking Beetz ought to fire her agent, but a late-game clarification makes it ... well, forgivable is not quite the word, but it will do.

As Gotham begins to burn (the civil unrest starts with a garbage strike), Fleck, who has been taken as a vigilante by much of the city's 99%, doesn't quite know what to make of his underground cult stardom. (The city is beset by rioters in clown makeup and clown masks; because this movie is rather suddenly behind the curve in "clowns-are-scary" awareness—only Pennywise gets a special dispensation these days—these sequences look like "The Revolt of the Juggalos" or something equally laughable.) His mom (Frances Conroy, the poor woman) has been writing letters to her former employer, the magnate Thomas Wayne, and Arthur opens one of the missives and reads them, learning something disturbing.

The storyline in and of itself is not a total miss. But once the movie starts lifting shots from "A Clockwork Orange" (and yes, Phillips and company got Warners to let them use the Saul Bass studio logo for the opening credits, in white on red, yet) you know its priorities are less in entertainment than in generating self-importance. As social commentary, "Joker" is pernicious garbage. But besides the wacky pleasures of Phoenix's performance, it also displays some major movie studio core competencies, in a not dissimilar way to what "A Star Is Born" presented last year. (Bradley Cooper is a producer.) The supporting players, including Glenn Fleshler and Brian Tyree Henry, bring added value to their scenes, and the whole thing feels like a movie. The final minutes, which will move any sentient viewer to mutter "would you just pick a goddamn ending and stick to it?" are likely an indication of what kind of mess we would have had on our hands had Phillips been left entirely to his own cynical incoherent devices for the entire runtime. Fortunately, he gets by with a little help from his friends.

It fits the script I read; the feeling of self-importance for such a superficial script may be annoying, but I still have faith in Phoenix. Oh! To simply enjoy a blockbuster! I have faith with this one!

it's getting closer to talking about a fun movie. not great, but not terrible, it's just a fucking movie

Um... this just won the Golden Bear at the Venice Film Festival.

never heard of it

genuinely the first time xixax has ever mentioned that award

I remember when I won my first award...

What is Xixax spirit animal? A frog? Where is the Golden Frog? La Grenouille d'Or.

i ran a search and the winner of the golden bear has never been mentioned here until it became the joker. that fascinates me

Quote from: jenkins on September 08, 2019, 01:28:53 PM
i ran a search and the winner of the golden bear has never been mentioned here until it became the joker. that fascinates me

Ditto.  MAGNOLIA won the Golden Bear--amazing that didn't merit a single mention around here...

You guys just haven't been hanging around long enough...

From Modage's "Possible Cigs and Redvines interview" thread

Quote from: Reelist on September 04, 2012, 08:36:31 AM

Quote from: MacGuffin on September 03, 2012, 10:43:47 PM
Ask him how many bears he has drunk.

I got your answer:

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.de%2Fimage%2F0%2C%2C3131512_4%2C00.jpg&hash=959860a8898b87dfbca05fca6a9bc4167299ec05)

This stems from Robyn asking someone that question in one of our AMA's, I think. That's what I was referencing earlier

wait a second oh okay. the golden bear is for the Berlin International Film Festival, that's where Magnolia won. the golden lion is for the Venice Film Festival, that's where Joker won

no one off-the-top knows who's won berlin since then, or who won venice previously, but what's clicked in my head is that Joker is arriving as a serious film of notable achievement, with a questionable director festival accredited, and reputable actors present. it's not even so much about whether this is a good or bad film, but rather the cultural implications of this entry in comic book movies. it's what Logan wanted but this will have a different level of support

oh, it's been written about (https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/joker-review-joaquin-phoenix-1202170236/)

QuoteTodd Phillips' "Joker" is unquestionably the boldest reinvention of "superhero" cinema since "The Dark Knight"; a true original that's sure to be remembered as one of the most transgressive studio blockbusters of the 21st Century. It's also a toxic rallying cry for self-pitying incels, and a hyper-familiar origin story so indebted to "Taxi Driver" and "The King of Comedy" that Martin Scorsese probably deserves an executive producer credit. It's possessed by the kind of provocative spirit that's seldom found in any sort of mainstream entertainment, but also directed by a glorified edgelord who lacks the discipline or nuance to responsibly handle such hazardous material, and who reliably takes the coward's way out of the narrative's most critical moments.

"Joker" is the human-sized and adult-oriented comic book movie that Marvel critics have been clamoring for — there's no action, no spandex, no obvious visual effects, and the whole thing is so gritty and serious that DCEU fanboys will feel as if they've died and seen the Snyder Cut — but it's also the worst-case scenario for the rest of the film world, as it points towards a grim future in which the inmates have taken over the asylum, and even the most repulsive of mid-budget character studies can be massive hits (and Oscar contenders) so long as they're at least tangentially related to some popular intellectual property. The next "Lost in Translation" will be about Black Widow and Howard Stark spending a weekend together at a Sokovia hotel; the next "Carol" will be an achingly beautiful period drama about young Valkyrie falling in love with a blonde woman she meets in an Asgardian department store.

I will admit that I hadn't realized that both Berlin and Venice award a Golden Bear.

I wanted to see this anyway in my usual desperately optimistic way, but now I'm really curious to see what's up.

Also, rumor is they're planning to link up Joker sequels with the Robert Pattinson Batman for a supposed Arthouse Gotham Cinematic Universe (https://www.indiewire.com/2019/09/robert-pattinson-batman-crossover-joaquin-phoenix-joker-theory-1202170657/).

Quote from: Drenk on September 08, 2019, 12:52:08 PM
What is Xixax spirit animal? A frog? Where is the Golden Frog? La Grenouille d'Or.

Gotta be. In fact, I second this to be the new name of the "Best Film of the Year Award" beginning 2020.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/84fe43cdf33410ad7f0f963fbe6a65ba/tumblr_pg6p2okLR81waors8o3_500.jpg)

The only reasonable choice.

https://twitter.com/TrentShy/status/1167970969018863616

QuoteTodd Phillips' "Joker" is unquestionably the boldest reinvention of "superhero" cinema since "The Dark Knight"; a true original that's sure to be remembered as one of the most transgressive studio blockbusters of the 21st Century. It's also a toxic rallying cry for self-pitying incels, and a hyper-familiar origin story so indebted to "Taxi Driver" and "The King of Comedy" that Martin Scorsese probably deserves an executive producer credit.

Whenever a superhero film is hailed with words like "reinvention," it's usually heavily modeled on another highly regarded film. Joker was influenced by Taxi Driver and King of Comedy.  Logan was influenced by Shane. The Dark Knight was influenced by Heat.

I don't inherently have a problem with a film being modeled on another one (Taxi Driver itself was influenced by The Searchers), but is there not a way to make a stand-out superhero film without directly tying it to a classic or using influences that are immediately obvious?

Joaquin Phoenix, the Wild Card of 'Joker'
How did an unpredictable star known for loners and killers wind up in a studio blockbuster based on a comic book? Think of it more as a character study.

LOS ANGELES — It wasn't clear where the conversation with Joaquin Phoenix went off-track, assuming it was ever on track to begin with. But now he was batting me around the way a cat bounces its prey between its paws before devouring it.

At this moment, it wasn't my questions about why, in an idiosyncratic film career, he had chosen to play the Joker, the cackling comic-book criminal, or how he had prepared for the demanding, transformative role, or what it all meant about the state of contemporary moviemaking that had set him off — though these topics would all provoke him in different ways, in time.

It was my stray observation that he could probably sustain himself on emotionally wrung-out roles for as long as he wanted, which had caused Phoenix to recoil in his seat like he was Tony Montana, about to unload on an incompetent underling.

"Oh, really?" he asked, in a sarcastic voice as dry as sandpaper. "Well, good. Thank you so much. That's great. I was worried." Then he grinned and let out a laugh, to let me know he was kidding. Or was he?

If you're going to make a movie about a homicidal madman in clown makeup, you might as well get a guy who radiates low-level menace. Though he has portrayed everyone from Johnny Cash to Jesus of Nazareth, Phoenix has lately settled into a string of movies about loners ("The Master," "Her," "Inherent Vice"), killers ("The Sisters Brothers") and lonesome killers ("You Were Never Really Here") that have let him plumb the depths of human experience.

While there's no telling where his creative wanderings will take him, it would have seemed safe to predict that a high-profile movie based on a studio-owned intellectual property wouldn't be anywhere on that itinerary.

But here he is, starring in "Joker," a seedy character study and possible origin story for this perpetual Batman nemesis. The movie, which is directed by Todd Phillips and will be released by Warner Bros. on Oct. 4, is neither a traditional comic-book blockbuster, nor typical source material for its leading man.

In other ways, Phoenix and his onscreen alter ego are extremely compatible, if a late August dinner at a Japanese restaurant in Studio City is anything to judge by.

The actor was never contemptuous when he spoke; he took every inquiry seriously and he responded honestly, unless he didn't feel like answering at all.

Over the span of an hour, he ran the spectrum of emotions, from sincere and thoughtful to lighthearted to standoffish, and there was no way of knowing which questions or remarks would elicit which version of him.

Phoenix likes that potential for danger in his work, too, and he cited it as one of the reasons he wanted to make "Joker."

"I didn't really know what it was," he said. "I didn't know how to classify it. I didn't say, 'This is the character I'm playing.' I didn't know what we were going to do."

"It was terrifying," he continued, and he flashed that grin again.

Phoenix is 44, with hair that is a mixture of brown, copper and gray strands, and he spoke with an unexpected gentleness, like Commodus, the wicked emperor he played in "Gladiator." (We know how it turned out for Commodus.)

Phoenix could be playful at times. When I noted how nimble he looked in some of his dancing scenes in "Joker," he swatted away the compliment, saying, "I would get injured just from doing a light jog down the street. I'd have to be sent home."

But some of that lightness evaporated as soon as I asked how he'd been approached about the film and he replied that he could not remember. "It sucks — this is why interviews are the worst," he said despairingly, adding that he was tempted to make up a story "just to sound exciting."

Nor was he in any hurry to explain his process for figuring out his "Joker" character before filming began. "It's so stupid to talk about," he grumbled. "I'm not going to talk about it." (He did eventually talk about it.)

LET'S SET ASIDE PHOENIX for the moment and return to Phillips, who is best known for directing the lucrative "Hangover" comedies. At the premiere of his 2016 crime caper, "War Dogs," Phillips found himself anticipating its tepid reception while gazing at a billboard for a Marvel superhero juggernaut. He wondered how he could possibly compete.

Warner Bros. had been having only intermittent success with its DC superhero movies — "Wonder Woman," yes, "Suicide Squad," no — but Phillips saw a potential solution to everyone's problems. "You can't beat Marvel — it's a giant behemoth," he said. "Let's do something they can't do."

What Phillips proposed to the studio was a series of smaller, stand-alone movies that would closely examine the DC characters without conflicting with previous films. "It's just another interpretation, like people do interpretations of Macbeth," he explained.

In particular, Phillips was fascinated with the Joker, who had been so memorably played by Jack Nicholson (in Tim Burton's "Batman") and by Heath Ledger (in Christopher Nolan's "The Dark Knight").

As Phillips saw it, there was still room to tell a new story about this villain, closer in spirit to grimy urban narratives he admired, like "Taxi Driver," "Death Wish" and "The King of Comedy."

In the "Joker" screenplay written by Phillips and Scott Silver, the protagonist is Arthur Fleck, a troubled clown-for-hire in rundown, uncaring Gotham City. While its citizens shun him and stomp on him, Arthur descends into a cycle of retribution and violence, becoming a folk hero for all the wrong reasons. "You want to root for this guy until you can't root for him any longer," Phillips explained.

Still, this circus needed a clown, and both Phoenix and Phillips acknowledge that the actor was not quickly sold on the project. "He was not keen on jumping into costume in any comic-book movie," Phillips said. "It's not necessarily in his five-year plan — although I don't think he has one." (Despite trade publication reports that the "Joker" team was seeking Leonardo DiCaprio, Phillips said, "We wrote the movie for Joaquin.")

Over about three months, Phillips repeatedly visited Phoenix's home, answering his many, many questions about the character and hoping to win him over through sheer persistence.

"I asked him to come over and audition me for it," Phoenix said. "It wasn't an easy decision, but he kept saying, 'Let's just be bold. Let's do something.'"

As Phillips recalled, "I kept waiting for him to just say, 'O.K., I'm in,' And he never did that." Where Phoenix is concerned, he said, "You just never get a yes. All you get is more questions."

He and Phillips had more fruitful disagreements in the months Phoenix spent getting into character ahead of filming. They concurred that the actor should undergo a drastic weight change, but Phoenix, who had slimmed down for past roles, wasn't eager to do it again.

"It's a horrible way to live," Phoenix said. "I think he should be kind of heavy. Todd was like, 'I think you should do the real thin person.'" Phoenix lost 52 pounds for the part.

Phoenix trained with a choreographer and studied videos of famous dancers ("I won't say who"), and he and Phillips challenged each other with ideas they found in books ("I'm not going to tell you what those books were"). The actor learned to apply his own greasepaint and kept a journal of half-formed jokes and frenzied thoughts that appears in the movie.

Phillips said Phoenix's greatest misgivings about "Joker" were its explicit ties to comic-book mythology, represented most prominently by the character of the outspoken, out-of-touch billionaire Thomas Wayne (Brett Cullen), whose son, Bruce (Dante Pereira-Olson), will grow up to be Batman.

"He never liked saying the name Thomas Wayne," Phillips said. "It would have been easier for him if the movie was called 'Arthur' and had nothing to do with any of that stuff. But in the long run, I think he got it and appreciated it."

Comic books are not unknown to Phoenix. He collected them avidly as a teen, though he preferred brutal Marvel antiheroes like Wolverine to DC's staid pantheon. In 2014, when Marvel was casting "Doctor Strange," the studio sought Phoenix to play the super-sorcerer, but he reportedly broke off negotiations, and in the end Benedict Cumberbatch got the gig. Phoenix declined to explain to me why he did this; "I think they — I don't know," was all he said.

Of course Phoenix had seen and admired Nicholson's and Ledger's versions of the Joker, but he claimed to be "blissfully naïve" about the immense expectations to measure up.

When Phoenix did some interviews before "Joker" started production and was quizzed about how his performance might differ, he said he realized, "This is a really big deal," adding, "I'm so, like, not in the game that I didn't know people would do this."

FOR A THREE-TIME OSCAR NOMINEE, Phoenix can be charmingly unaware about showbiz scuttlebutt and vocabulary. ("Tentpole movies, is that's what it's called?") But he is also a trickster who spent months of his life pretending to have given up acting for hip-hop, as preserved in Casey Affleck's utterly fake 2010 mock-documentary, "I'm Still Here."

His reputation for volatility precedes him, but it also makes filmmakers more avid to work with him. James Gray, who has directed Phoenix in four features, said that when they first worked together, on his 2000 crime drama, "The Yards," the actor could be fitfully brilliant.

"He didn't have full control of his instrument," Gray said. "He was like an Olympic diver who didn't know the formal rules of the Olympics yet."

But in the years and films together that followed — "We Own the Night," "Two Lovers" and "The Immigrant" — Gray said, "He began to understand, frankly, that there weren't limits, and he started to become fearless."

Gray acknowledged that Phoenix possessed "a powder-keg quality," but that it came from a place of commitment and conviction.

"If you're not prepared, he will know it, and he will let you know it," Gray said. "You have to do your homework."

Phillips said there were moments when Phoenix lost his composure on the set of "Joker," sometimes to the bafflement of his co-stars.

"In the middle of the scene, he'll just walk away and walk out," Phillips said. "And the poor other actor thinks it's them and it was never them — it was always him, and he just wasn't feeling it." And after taking a breather, he said, "we'll take a walk and we'll come back and we'll do it."

Robert De Niro, who appears in "Joker" as a smarmy late-night host on whom Arthur is fixated, did not encounter this side of Phoenix and said the actor was a consummate professional.

"Joaquin was very intense in what he was doing, as it should be, as he should be," De Niro said. "There's nothing to talk about, personally, on the side, 'Let's have coffee.' Let's just do the stuff."

De Niro, who played disturbed loners in several of the movies that inspired "Joker," said he could understand why actors and audiences continued to be drawn to these characters. But he also observed that having a fascination with Travis Bickle doesn't make you Travis Bickle yourself.

"People identify with it in some way — not that they go to those extremes," he said. "They can understand the sentiment. Sometimes those things are cathartic."

Phoenix, for his part, was not inclined to tell anyone how to interpret "Joker," or to consider the possibility that some of its elements — whether the film's brutal gun violence or ambivalence about protest movements — might make it the wrong movie for a not-so-subtle moment. "However you want to talk about it, dude, that's on you as a journalist," he told me.

And he seemed almost angry, at first, when I asked if "Joker" might be a bad omen for filmmaking, if it means that character-driven movies can only get made at this scale if they're based on established pop-culture characters. "I don't even know what you just said," he growled.

But when I rephrased the question slightly, he gave a calmer, more measured answer. "It's up to the artist to find the way to tell stories that are meaningful," he replied. "If my nephews are not going to sit through a two-hour movie, what are you going to do? You just have to pursue what's truthful to you, and either someone's interested or they're not."

It was hard to imagine that Phoenix would gracefully navigate all the promotional appearances and glad-handing that such mass-market movies require — obligations that are likely to increase after "Joker" became the surprise winner of the Venice Film Festival's Golden Lion award, its top prize, which in past years has gone to future Oscar winners like "Roma" and "The Shape of Water."

But Phillips said his star was free to approach these duties however he wanted. "If he goes on Jimmy Kimmel and walks off after two minutes, I'd be like, 'That's my boy,'" Phillips said proudly. "He follows his own rhythm."

But where does Phoenix want it to take him? He isn't the sort of actor who plots his career five pictures in advance, and he doesn't have a personal production company working around the clock to develop new projects. When I asked him whether he thought he needed this kind of Hollywood apparatus, he gleefully reminded me that only moments ago, I had said he would never have to worry about where his next role was coming from.

"So which is it?" he said with mock apprehension. "Make up your mind! Five minutes ago, I was sitting back, laughing, going, 'Well, I'm set.' Now you have me very, very nervous."

But seriously, folks: Phoenix said his criteria for choosing work are actually quite clear-cut. "I don't really care about genre or budget size, anything like that," he said. "It's just whether there is a filmmaker that has a unique vision, has a voice, and the ability to make the film."

Phoenix also said it was easy for him to sit out for months at a time when he feels he's become overexposed. At a certain point, he said, "you don't want to see this" — meaning himself — "on a poster. You're driving down the street, you go, 'Again? This face? It is so tired. Enough.'"

To do what he wants to do, Phoenix said there is only one question he needs to consider, and it's laughably easy: "What's going to keep me excited or inspired, and wanting to work hard?" he said.

And he's just going to keep asking it until that joke isn't funny anymore. "If I don't feel like I'm pushing myself in some ways, I'll get bored, or maybe they'll get bored of me," he said. "I don't know who's going to get bored of who first."

Finished reading Joker. It's like Todd Phillips and Scott Silver got high, had an old school Scorsese marathon, browsed the r/GamersRiseUp subreddit and started punching up nonsensical crap into Final Draft as a goof.

This story stands for nothing. You think it's going to be a work exploring the wealth gap by centering it on people who deal with mental illness in order to best highlight the disparity. Of course, everything about the execution of this theming is so vapid that it's honestly not even worth discussing.

On the bright side, the script gave me quite a few guffaws. The fact that this movie has been made at all is hysterical. Even more hilarious to me is the reality that this trash is actually receiving standing ovations.

Lord have mercy on anyone who actually watches the film and takes it seriously rather than just dismissing it as yet another diminutively derivative, superficial, hackneyed piece of modern filmmaking. It is mindless entertainment with a false veneer of "having something to say."

The only thing it says to me is that yes, this was indeed helmed by the man responsible for The Hangover trilogy.

The discourse around this film is some of the dumbest shit I have read in my life.

All these people whining about it being an "alt right manifesto" and an "incel movie" clearly need to log off and spend a few weeks off social media. People IRL don't behave or think like this. Stop huffing so much glue.

Quote from: Drenk on August 28, 2019, 01:57:11 PM
I'm worried about the girlfriend.

Don't be. It's fiction. The girlfriend doesn't exist IRL.

I was surprised by Phoenix here, delivering a genuine speech.

it feels thrilling to skip out on this, i must admit. it's a difference in perspective about thrills

C'mon Todd

https://twitter.com/Complex/status/1176948774134001664

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1179070253181128707

So are film studios tougher on comedies than OTT/premium? Righteous Gemstones and Fleabag are a riot, and no one's flagging them as obnoxious because they aren't.

The quote goes on, in the article, to indicate that Phillips found irreverence in subverting the comic genre -- basically all any comedy has got to do is just respect its audience, that can be done in vulgarities (Noe, Korine, Iannucci) or without it, but -- despite what's often touted as progressive - what's despised iz laziness not shock. I think...

Yes, Todd. A very smart and good take, proved correct by the indisputable fact that comedy is no longer being made. Very smart and very good, Todd.

it's not like a direct response to that statement or eward or to the general xixax population, but i'm very much looking forward to this movie being in the past. the comic book movie ballyhoo was the most arresting feature of conversations about it, but at this point ive never been so tired of a movie

WF posted since then and he even mentioned Righteous Gemstones and we further sealed our obvious cosmic bond, side story

lmao now polka has also posted since then and it's cool that Todd is being taken down, seems helpful to burying this movie

I will also add that he's very rude to below the line individuals, so much so that one of our on-set data wranglers made everyone a little wrap gift satirizing that fact, and Todd allegedly was offended by it.

Oof, Todd Phillips. Oof.

Phillips sending this clip to Kilmmell is extremely perverse, especially after The internet tried to make a fuss about Phoenix walking off during shooting, another thing coming from a Phillips quote.

Joaquin is really a restless animal.

An animal that eats its own feces when hungry. We sit far above that crowd.

This is no longer news, but I found it somewhat startling anyway:  When I came out of a screening (the Downton Abbey movie, of all things) this afternoon, there was an LAPD officer standing in the lobby.  Full flack jacket, sidearm, etc.  Being an old white guy, I felt safe approaching him, so I smiled and said, "You seem VERY overdressed for a suburban theatre lobby...".  He smiled and said he was there because JOKER was screening at 4:20pm (the first screening of the film at that location).   I asked him who hired him to be there, distributor? Theatre owner?   He indicated the theatre chain (Laemmle, in this case -- art & foreign films generally).  We both kind of shook our heads and I wished him a quiet evening...

Wait, was Joker, like, a real good movie until Todd Phillips made some anti-woke comments? Kinda feels that way to me.

Loved the shot of Arthur leaving the BK Bridge-City Hall subway stop. Joaquin lends the character so much grace and charm in an otherwise facile script. I like all the moments in between plot-beats more than the actual beats themselves.

Anything you could read into this script and its mob mentality angle iz better presented in CLIMAX.

Quote from: Something Spanish on October 04, 2019, 09:22:22 AM
Wait, was Joker, like, a real good movie until Todd Phillips made some anti-woke comments? Kinda feels that way to me.

Yeah, kind of. 
Still, I'd rather listen to Lucrecia Martell, in any case, than some dude worried about a comic book film being "adolescent" and "irresponsible".

this was terrible.

Re Todd Phillips being less than generous in his dealings with various crew members, one of our data wranglers had these printed up and distro'd on our last day of shooting.

This is gold.  :bravo:

That's hilarious.

Yeah I wanted to like this, but I just sank lower and lower in my seat as it went on.

It is not good. It's a barf sandwich.

The politics are a fucking mess. I have no idea what it's trying to say about society, mental illness, class, any of it. I don't think it knows. It's pointless at best, and if there is a point buried in there somewhere, it's an ugly one. It apes Scorsese and plays with all these hot-button issues with the maturity of a kid who's found his dad's gun. It's the cinematic equivalent of U MAD BRO?

Joaquin is throwing himself at it as hard as he can, but he's in such poor hands with Todd at the helm and that disaster of a script, I felt bad for him.

It's really bumming me out how well received this has been by audiences. It'll really bum me out when this beats The Irishman/OUATIH at the Oscars. This should be an all-timer in the "Movies Assholes Dig" thread. It's a movie made by an asshole, about an asshole, for assholes.

Quote from: Fuzzy Dunlop on October 10, 2019, 01:36:57 PM
with the maturity of a kid who's found his dad's gun.

Excellent Ian Malcolm evocation  8-)

Quote from: eward on October 10, 2019, 12:21:07 PM
Re Todd Phillips being a dick less than generous in his dealings with various crew members, one of our data wranglers had these printed up and distro'd on our last day of shooting. I'm told Todd was not pleased.

Did you get the reported wrap gift from Joaquin?

https://news.yahoo.com/joker-crew-member-said-joaquin-174233622.html

A lot of people are comparing this unfavorably to You Were Never Really Here, which I thought was pretty bad. Maybe I'll inadvertently enjoy this.

I did! It's a thorough recreation of Joker's journal in which he rants insanely for a page each about every dept. and their attendant crew members by name, and peppered throughout are Joker-ized versions of classic movie posters. He worked on it with our art department throughout the entire shoot. It's very funny and it was very cool of him to do. His insinuation of the movie being terrible and that everyone but him was responsible was 100% a joke and that video is full of doggy doo-doo trying to make it seem at the outset like some scandal. Love how they wait until about a minute in to reveal that it was all done in jest. We were thrilled to get them. Can post pics later when I get home. In the meantime, please enjoy this picture of Joaquin's Joker face on a cake (it was delicious by the way).

Movie is actually pretty good. What is it saying about society, mental illness, and violence? I thought that was super straightforward. A society which treats the abused, disabled, and mentally ill the way our country does is bound to foment unrest and reactionary violence. 

It's comments on the relativity of social mores and humor is actually more interesting, and surprisingly nuanced coming from Todd Phillips of all people. Arthur Fleck ends up being a suitably tragic figure to channel these themes through.

My favorite Joker review, from - surprise, surprise - America's Finest Film Critic (besides Ben Hosley).

Joker

Nick Pinkerton

Todd Phillips borrows some Scorsese for a franchise origin story.

The birth of the modern Joker cult can be dated to 2008, with Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight, and its spastic performance by Heath Ledger, who had died shortly before the film's release, as Gotham's Clown Prince of Crime. Ledger's Joker was given an abundance of screen time in which to articulate his personal philosophy, a recklessly violent strain of "Do what thou wilt" carnival anarchism; Nolan cited Fritz Lang's mad criminal mastermind Dr. Mabuse as an influence. Unusual among supervillains, Mabuse is not a killable mortal being but a viral idea, a mantle to be passed from person to person, Mabuse to Mabuse. And while Nolan's grim, lumbering film is no more interesting today than it was a decade ago, the virality of its Joker has made for a lively extra-cinematic phenomenon, the character becoming a lodestar for Gamergate radicals, TikTok role players, SoundCloud rappers, and a menagerie of other fascinating freaks.

So, courtesy the inevitable logic of franchise metastasis and "cinematic universes," we have Todd Phillips's Joker. The film slowly tracks star Joaquin Phoenix's eventual assumption of the title role. When first encountered, he is a nebbish named Arthur Fleck working as a rent-a-clown and living with his unhinged mother (father is unknown) in a Gotham that in almost every respect resembles the foundering pre-cleanup New York City of the popular imagination. Rather than the system-minded Lang, Phillips takes as his model Martin Scorsese's immersive dramas of urban anomie and alienation, particularly Taxi Driver (1976) and King of Comedy (1982). The first fully Joker-centric film—I don't deceive myself in imagining that it will be the last—Joker puts Phoenix on-screen nearly constantly, as Robert De Niro was in those two Scorsese movies. De Niro himself is on hand here as Murray Franklin, a late-night chat-show host who's a sort of amalgam of Merv Griffin and "Stupid Human Tricks"–era David Letterman.

An aspiring stand-up comic, though his own act is doomed by incompetence and a susceptibility to painful fits of pathological laughter, Arthur looks to Franklin as a surrogate father figure and career role model. The alignment of the spectator with Arthur's viewpoint extends to our sharing in his delusions, including daydreams of stardom with Franklin and a transparently telegraphed twist involving a budding romance with a neighbor played by Zazie Beetz. Our near intimacy with Arthur also allows for an intensive study in the eccentric architecture of Phoenix's torso: hunched shoulders, pale skin clinging to a barrel ribcage on an emaciated frame, long arms that seem to protrude Ingres-like from the wrong angles. Phoenix is a full-body actor, and Phillips highlights him as such, making room for a number of dance idylls that include slow sways, spastic soft shoes interrupted by pelvic thrusting, and gnarled tai chi reveries. In fact, the film operates under the belief that anything that works once will go over even better the tenth time, and this repetition of effects blunts impact. As such, nothing lingered on here makes the impression that, say, Phoenix's ecstatic nightclub breakdance in James Gray's Two Lovers (2008) or his folded-in postures in Paul Thomas Anderson's The Master (2012) do in a fraction of the screentime.

This isn't to denigrate Phillips by comparing him to highbrow-auteur directors, but to note that his highbrow-auteur phase is, thus far, the least interesting of his career, which began with nonfiction studies in what is now fashionably called toxic masculinity (1993's Hated: GG Allin and the Murder Junkies, 1998's Frat House), and continued through raunchy, crowd-pleasing studio comedies centered on, essentially, the same subject matter (2003's Old School, the Hangover trilogy). Joker marks Phillips's second dip in the shallow end of the prestige pool, and while it improves on the first, War Dogs (2016), a dismal dark comedy concerning arms dealing, it's likewise afflicted by shopworn pop-music cues: here Cream's "White Room" and Gary Glitter's "Rock & Roll Part 2." (Better is the original score by cellist and composer Hildur Guðnadóttir, which conveys the palpable feeling of a world teetering on the brink.)

Early Joker ballyhoo provided occasion for much journalistic hand-wringing over the prospect of the film as a "What Is to Be Done?" for the incel set, a risk for inspiring open rebellion among the unlettered rabble, whose potential adverse reaction to even a whiff of moral ambiguity preoccupies the chattering classes, who know such volatile concepts are best kept safe in graduate-level seminars. Actually, Joker's au courant radicalism is directed principally toward the moneyed elite, exemplified by Franklin and another media figure, Thomas Wayne (Brett Cullen), father of the boy-who-would-be-Batman—the urban patrician conception of the elder Wayne suggests something like Nelson Rockefeller, while his casual reference to the disgruntled underclass as "clowns" mirrors Hillary Clinton's "deplorables." Arthur is a victim who has fallen through an increasingly frayed social-services safety net, and his rankling rage is grounded in class resentment rather than the racial and sexual hang-ups that plague, for example, a Travis Bickle. (Joker, like James Mangold's 2017 Logan, is an "adult" comic-book movie, but like all such movies remains essentially sexless.) The inciting incident that sends Arthur off the deep end is a kind of Bernhard Goetz–in-reverse confrontation on the subway, in which the greasepainted by-the-hour Bozo guns down three drunkenly belligerent stockbrokers, one with an Eric Trumpian physiognomy, after they droogishly serenade him with "Send in the Clowns."

Where earlier in the movie Arthur's subjective delusions and exterior reality are muddled, they finally coincide as his madness metastasizes into the outside world, his outcast's fantasies of power and potency finding ultimate expression as Arthur becomes Joker, emerging as a hero to the fed-up lumpenproletariat. This metamorphosis serves the purposes of multifilm architecture, though makes little dramatic sense; there is nothing in Joker to suggest Arthur as a leader of men—and, by the looks of things, exclusively men—as a figure of unusual charisma or intelligence. Stringy-haired, wearing itchy polyester slacks and an assortment of dun-colored cardigans, Phoenix's Arthur is from first appearance far gone, something like a Crispin Glover grotesque—and his confrontation with Franklin on live television plays like Glover's combative 1987 Letterman appearance taken to its extreme conclusion. (The weird Letterman appearance is a storied tradition, participated in by Harvey Pekar, Harmony Korine, and Phoenix himself.)

The face-off between Joker and Franklin, between outsider animus and insider smugness, embodies the tension at the heart of Joker—a film that takes on the nigh-impossible task of smuggling transgressive underground danger into a contemporary, risk-averse multiplex tentpole package. (Years ago, Phillips commissioned the poster art for Hated from very real killer clown John Wayne Gacy.) Most of the time this danger finds expression through the hoariest clichés of encroaching mental illness, including diary-of-a-madman composition books filled with a looping, loony, misspelled scrawl and creepo collage art. Some true triumphal madness is achieved during the last act Walpurgisnacht in the streets of Gotham, but it's mitigated by the logic of cinematic universe-building, and the knowledge that order must and will be restored. Our anger, too, must today be made subservient to the law of the franchise—it is to the insufficiency of this that the off-script amateur cult of Jokerdom perhaps subconsciously responds, remaining far more potent and petrifying than any mere scenery-gnashing screen jester.

thank you for not forgetting the poet laureate.

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That was extremely repetitive.

Has there been a more dreadfully boring, absolutely no-there-there, film centering on an arguably great lead performance in recent memory?

Some scenes existed only for the performance, but when Phoenix is doing the same thing for the fifth time it hurts the performance. Some nice shots here and there but it's full of holes—ultimately, it treats its characters as props, even Joker whose victimization is too much, and his madness is too restrained, I don't see how they'll manage to do a Joker 2 with a false Joker.

The performance is pretty much what I expected/feared. Lesser Freddie with no PSH to play off of. The big interview showdown with De Niro was terrible. Dialogue and even acting. This was basically the nadir of the shtick he's been doing too much lately, so of course he's probably winning the Oscar for it.

Oh? You've edited? I noticed the drag queen Joker, too. And I sincerely don't know if it's good acting or not—he's very uncomfortable and that might have been a way for Phoenix to show how Joker is trying to be confident, powering through the moment. But that was a strange choice. eward probably knows if Phoenix tried something else or did the all thing like that.

Anyway, the script is SO BAD during that scene, which is a shame because it's supposed to be the climax. And the word "society" is said twice. Cut 20 minutes before and do a whole sequence there with a strong script...

There was a lot of variation between takes, from what I recall. A lot of seemingly arbitrary chucking of various ingredients at the wall and seeing what stuck. Of course, Joaquin had the added frustration of waiting for De Niro to learn his damn lines, which were being fed to him via ear wig. Todd would just sit in video village and mumble directions into a microphone, befogged in a cloud of vapor. They used I think five or six cameras, maybe even more, at all times, plus an old broadcast camera shooting the actual talk show footage. Perhaps that's why the end result feels so cobbled together; it was.

Quote from: eward on October 17, 2019, 01:48:21 PM
Todd would just sit in video village and mumble directions into a microphone, befogged in a cloud of vapor.

Even before you said that, I definitely pictured Todd Phillips as the kind of guy who vapes in non-smoking areas and gets into very indignant arguments about the fundamental differences between smoke and vapor when someone asks him to stop.

TP is all about that vape life. It feels weird to be a film geek who actually likes this movie and LOVES Joaquin's performance. Read all the criticisms, respectfully disagree. Yes, it had mucho problemas when external elements rear in, but as a character piece, when focusing on Joaquin's inner life and not the silly movement he catalyzes, it's aces. Sure, it's a bit one note, so are many movies, particularly morbid ones, like most of Mike Leigh movies, but if the subject is interesting, like, really interesting, then you can loop that note hip-hop sample style. The movie falls apart for me when he goes on the Murray show (when Joker starts calling him Mu-RRAY, the performance saunters into horrible land), I understand this is the final turn turning him into the maniacal comical villain we know from pop culture, still feels incongruent to the depiction until that point. After that the movie picks up the pieces nicely, and I'm comfortable awarding it a solid 3 stars. 3 1/2 had they omitted that stairway dance.

Quote from: Drenk on October 17, 2019, 11:40:39 AM
Oh? You've edited? I noticed the drag queen Joker, too. And I sincerely don't know if it's good acting or not—he's very uncomfortable and that might have been a way for Phoenix to show how Joker is trying to be confident, powering through the moment. But that was a strange choice. eward probably knows if Phoenix tried something else or did the all thing like that.

Anyway, the script is SO BAD during that scene, which is a shame because it's supposed to be the climax. And the word "society" is said twice. Cut 20 minutes before and do a whole sequence there with a strong script...

Yeah, lacked a better phrasing and didn't want to offend. Glad I wasn't the only one to notice it, though.

He mentioned in an interview that he thought he had a much better take but it didn't "work for the scene". He apparently didn't like the take that was officially used but said it worked best. Who knows what he meant by that.

I really liked this. I agree with some of the criticisms - it is a bit one note. But moment to moment, while watching, I was thrilled and excited by the choices made. I think this is a very good movie wrapped around an incredible performance.

I think a lot of the detractors are in agreement that the central performance is solid but lay into Phillips about the film's flaws. I feel like people are underestimating the director's contribution to any actors performance, or the fact that it is often through the director's choice/take selection that the performance is shaped. Same with people who compliment the art direction, costume and cinematography and still slate TP as a poor director - I imagine he is across all of those areas along with his HOD's (or he should be).

I read/heard that they shot the talk show stuff early due to De Niro's availability. Maybe that contributed to this being some of the weakest material? I imagine it would be frustrating for Phoenix still searching for the character and having to shoot the climax first. There's also the make-up continuity - I feel like they found a beautiful balance in the scenes before the talk show - with the blue from one of the eyes running down the face - but maybe hadn't settled on that at the time of the talk show shoot.

I also read De Niro and Phoenix didn't get on - both passing it off as professionalism and just getting the job done, but it feels like something more maybe...

Basically, all this:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/10/todd-phillips-joker-rewatching-taxi-driver

I'm just stunned by the lack of imagination of Joker. Regarding Joaquin performance: Philipps definitely didn't know how to tame his actor, too many scenes of laughing/crying (...waiting for the YouTube compilation). Seriously, I like the first ten minutes of the movie, but it manages to repeat the bits over and over again, and then the big climax is just weird; I don't want Philipps to do a Magnolia, but he had good actors, a good set, the Joker, and did the minimum. All the cool effects don't form a cohesive whole.

That said: this movie is selling tickets. People are seeing it. My brothers, my sister, they don't even watch Marvel movies but saw Joker. It created a lot of interest.

Quote from: Drenk on October 19, 2019, 04:29:41 PM
Basically, all this:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/10/todd-phillips-joker-rewatching-taxi-driver

I'm just stunned by the lack of imagination of Joker. Regarding Joaquin performance: Philipps definitely didn't know how to tame his actor, too many scenes of laughing/crying (...waiting for the YouTube compilation). Seriously, I like the first ten minutes of the movie, but it manages to repeat the bits over and over again, and then the big climax is just weird; I don't want Philipps to do a Magnolia, but he had good actors, a good set, the Joker, and did the minimum. All the cool effects don't form a cohesive whole.

That said: this movie is selling tickets. People are seeing it. My brothers, my sister, they don't even watch Marvel movies but saw Joker. It created a lot of interest.

Agreed. Weird (and kind of annoying..) that this is the film that Joaquin is apparently willing to play ball on in terms of awards (of course, the box office helps). But Phillips just completely (over)indulged him. Which is why I'm guessing he's big on this experience.

Quote from: Drenk on October 19, 2019, 04:29:41 PM
Basically, all this:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/10/todd-phillips-joker-rewatching-taxi-driver

that's the good fight right there

QuoteBut what mostly struck me both times was how rotely, how condescendingly, the movie animates the tortured soul at its center. This is not a genuine exploration of a very real, present social condition, despite a morose seriousness in the movie's tone that would seem to imply taking the subject seriously. This is a movie that knows how far it can get by appearing to be serious and wears this as a badge of distinction. Yet it takes what's wrong with Arthur Fleck for granted, telling us, for example, that Arthur takes seven medications while obscuring which medications or what they're for, because the number of pills, paired with a convenient discovery of childhood trauma, is meant to speak for itself. Arthur's illness is reduced to context, when, by all accounts, it's the movie's prime subject.

although certain topical similarities between King of Comedy and Taxi Driver are mentioned, the crux here comes from Taxi Driver alone. for all the reasons the writer mentions when describing Taxi Driver:

QuoteWhat stood out upon rewatching Taxi Driver, in particular, was how thoroughly conceived Travis Bickle is.

QuoteAnd all of this is wielded to bind us to the terrifying spell of Travis's demented state. It's practically hypnotism; we're seduced into seeing the world through Travis's tired, increasingly manic eyes.

King of Comedy is not a movie in which the viewer becomes so absorbed by a foul character that the character could be seen as a hero. it has superficial similarities to Taxi Driver but lacks its guts

This steaming pile of thunderous mediocrity is set to become the highest grossing R-rated film of all time.

This Joker is so mediocre as Joker that I can't imagine a Joker 2. Would Joker open a casino?

Nah, he'd go on a European vacation.

He should just do a prequel about Joker's frat house days, probably be more entertaining.

domestically speaking, becoming the highest grossing r rated movie means passing The Passion of the Christ, which is currently $120mil ahead. #2 is Deadpool. #3 is American Sniper, which was the highest grossing movie of that year in general. #4 is It

it'd be embarrassing if it didn't surpass those movies? it's definitely a shit show. currently Joker is ninth and behind, well yes, The Hangover and The Hangover Pt II

'Joker' Was Originally Intended to be Shot in 70mm, But Warner Bros. Passed

QuoteIn an interview with Variety, Sher revealed that he and Phillips originally planned to shoot the film in 70mm, emulating the '70s films that are such a major inspiration on Joker. But Warner Bros. executives "quashed" those plans, Variety reported.

However, Sher and Phillips didn't give up on their celluloid dreams. According to IndieWire, when Sher and Phillips' 70mm plans were shot down, they eyed a 35mm shoot — keeping Joker on film, even if they lost the large format scope. "Todd was really adamant about shooting film, convinced we'd just shoot 35mm like we did on his previous films," Sher told IndieWire last month. "We drove around to three or four different places around [New York City] and captured imagery with no lighting in both [35mm film and Arri Alexa 65 formats]. And when we looked at them side by side, we really loved the large-format aspect of the 65."

However, these 35mm plans didn't pan out either, and Sher and Phillips ended up settling on the digital Alexa 65 for their desired look. It ended up being a success for Joker, which recently set box office records as the most profitable comic book movie of all time.

Source (https://www.slashfilm.com/joker-70mm-original-plan-lawrence-sher/)

Manic Pixie Dream Incel horseshit. In some parallel universe, there's a version of this movie that turned out good, but it wasn't this one, and it certainly wouldn't have been made by Todd Phillips. As it is, I don't think I've seen a movie with such a misguided sense of its own profundity since... Beasts of the Southern Wild, maybe? And at least that one had its heart in the right place. Joker is the worst kind of cynical bullshit; it's a strip-mall sneaker store selling rebellion for $150 a pair.

If this movie is proof of anything, it's that you will never go broke selling terrible people the message that they're misunderstood victims.

I was not a fan. I thought Joaquin was okay, but not really worth all the plaudits he's been getting. Sorry. I did like Zazie Beetz though, although it's a pretty small part, most likely because I'd just very recently seen her in High Flying Bird before I watched this. You can absolutely tell this is a film by the guy who made The Hangover. That's not a good thing.

All that said, I can absolutely see why the film is winning lots of recognition in the crafts categories. Production Design, etc. were playing their A game. I'd be fine with Joker winning some of those awards, but nothing more, please.

"Look at United State of America right now - what is more important to our culture then the Joker?"

he's embarrassing to state the obvious

i confess that i myself didn't immediately like the idea of parasite winning both best foreign and best picture. but actually after it happened i didn't really care. and this guy did help me further not care

https://youtu.be/cLVNJ50vCDI

My personal take on this - which to be honest I quite enjoyed both times I've seen it - is that this is a statement of how long it takes films like Taxi Driver or King of Comedy to be fully digested by pop culture and turn up as tasty happy meals or combos that anyone can enjoy and relate to.

My enjoyment from it comes from the fact that I never for a moment felt the film was making a political statement. Or any kind of statement in terms of having a discourse or ideology and pretend to defend it. This is character study, the textbook version. Is it new? Not a chance. Is it edgy? Only next to the Avenger films. Is it profound? Well, I don't think it even tries. The film is too busy inside this poor psychopath's head to do anything else but go along. As a pop piece commenting on current issues, I think it puts things on the table that most people would normally never discuss and certainly never expect to come from a Hollywood comic book film. Namely, how mentally ill people need to be taken care of by their own government in a human way or else risking that same systematic violence to come back in ugly ways. It's not a bad thing to say, not now, not any other time. Compare this with Avengers and there is an abyss of frivolity separating the experiences. Of course it is nothing new because we've all seen Taxi Driver. But it's still weird. And with Joaquin Phoenix doing all sorts of crazy things and bringing a lot of risky touches to it.

I actually love that they let him loose and build up from there. Love the drag queen voice. It's so fucking weird and off putting and it just seems like he's getting lost in the abyss, right in front of the world. It reminded me of Dustin Hoffman in Lenny, with those long takes of the guy onstage, melting down. Mainstream films are so perfect these days. They make too much sense. And here are these guys just risking it. That gives the film a lot of energy, I think.

Still, is the lite version of better films. And so we're still away from REAL edgy movies competing with Robert Downey Jr. and winning. Phoenix's Joker is a full formed anti hero, but he is not Travis Bickle, taking the blonde girl to a porn movie on a date, getting farther from us while at the same time forcing us to share his perspective. In that, this stays as an above average spectacle, and a below average study on alienation.

If "Baskets" is to be believed, each clown's makeup is unique, like a fingerprint, their personal signature.

In going through Vinegar Syndrome's titles for the upcoming sale...


Tiny Tim in Blood Harvest (1987)
(https://i.imgur.com/4aj725A.jpg)

vs

(https://i.imgur.com/COcDqyy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CalqxD2.jpg)

Hmm...