Kevin Smith and PT Anderson, some of you people are nuts.

[Raikus]

I don't buy that theory for one second. It sounds like you disliked the movie and then tried to fit it into a parody theory that doesn't work. To say American Beauty has anything to do with a Woody Allen film is ridiculous. You're just trying to say it's a fleshed out, intricate drama that takes subject material in a new direction and spin it as a bad thing.

Woody Allen has done multiple person characture movies so they're ripping him off. What? Everyone has done something done already. Originality is unheard of anymore, therefore an argument based off of something trying to "pretend" it's original material is unsound. Everything can be argued with that, so it's no longer viable. And even if you see this movies as another "six people search for themselves" how can you say it didn't take those six people in completely new and different directions? As far as pardoy, that's a stretch and a half. Nearly every movie uses archetypal characters to help the audience identify them. Sure parodies have them, but so do every other type of movie. Does this mean American Beauty is a dressed up, obnoxious parody? Maybe to you, but I certainly don't see that, or the "logic" in your critique.

[Find Your Magali]

In the big picture, American Beauty is a Woody Allen film done without the comedy and is now pretending it is original material. To explain, Woody Allen makes parodies of serious movies and brings down all the characters to levels of characteratures, meaning they are easily identifiable of who they represent in other movies. Example of another movie could be Ordinary People for this one. In this movie, all you need is two seconds to sum up the struggles and goals of every single character in this movie. Nothing organic is felt at all. They are all stiff characteratures brought down to the ground by writing that plays as the underlining meaning to the other movies. So instead of a family struggle in which a conflict is shown and thats all, the movie will show the struggle with themes right on the surface and continually being pounded. Even movie fantasy is observed with the dream sequence and only further underlines everything we knew within moments. Nothing in this movie is organic, everything is playing from a storyline we all know too well, "Six people yet again are searching for themselves." The movie is near parody though in that it dresses its locale, its characters and its conflict in the best way to sum them as a parody would do. Parodies reduce things to identifiable symbols as to show how cliche they are.

Then, they are the good things that make this hard to discern. The performances are great in Cooper, Spacey and Benning. The directing and lighting is great as well and almost bring an effect where just watching it is enjoyable. The writing, as explained in the first paragraph, is dismal.

~rougerum

Nice post. You make some fascinating points. I like the film, probably moreso than you. But I agree that it doesn't leave me feeling much, emotionally, for the characters. It's nowhere near the same league as "Magnolia."

I wonder, however, whether you're pinning too much blame on Alan Ball and not enough on Sam Mendes. ... The screenwriter puts the script down on paper, but the director absolutely has the major influence on the film's tone and style (which, in essence, is what I think you are criticizing). ... A script can be interpreted any number of ways (the whole point of the xixax mini-film project) and I think where American Beauty falls short is in the over-exaggerating and over-dramatizing of certain elements of the screenplay, to the point that it doesn't feel like real life anymore, but a parody thereof. ... It might be shaky ground, but I would submit as further evidence of this the fact that I love Alan Ball's post-Beauty work (Six Feet Under), but I feel that Mendes' direction of Road to Perdition was extremely pedestrian. That, again, was a Conrad Hall movie. I don't think Mendes brought much to that as a director.

So, to sum up, I agree with your points on AB, I just don't agree on assigning the lion's share of the blame to Ball.

[Gold Trumpet]

Raikus, Woody Allen was just an example, an example used under the mind set that he takes serious works and removes everything organic from them and shows them for their cliches. I see this movie in that vein. Nothing is organic and every character and every situation is dressed up as cliche in that it plays drama and meaning hand in hand, instead of just drama and leaving meaning up to the viewer. In that vein of how cliche the movie is, it is parody imo. I never said anything about looking for originality, my argument for is something organic.

Magali,
I don't think it was Mendes fault that much because my complaints of writing where everywhere. I just think Mendes made the mistake of believing in the story. I think if Mendes wanted to do poor directing, he would have used cute filmmaking tricks everywhere for no reason. He is actually quite sublte and nice in his filmmaking. The feel of the film as captured by Conrad Hall, is the magic that makes this world so appealing. The performance are its conviction. The story second guesses it and after second viewing, destroys everything.

~rougerum

[SHAFTR]

American Beauty left a huge emotional impact on me.  It is one of the first movies I had seen at that time that actually made me feel something.  Subsequent viewings after that has shown that the movie is best upon first viewing but I would dare to say the same about Magnolia.  I love both films, and both of them moved me but they lose momentum with every viewing.  While in comparison Boogie Nights and PDL get better with every viewing.

But alas, we all have opinions.

[ono]

For reason that I NEVER want to get into on this board (because I kid you not, 40% of you will shit all over me if I tell you why) I think it is one of the most evil pieces of progaganda ever made, not to mention rife with every shit cliche in story.

Please, oh, please tell me.  I wanna be that 40%.  American Beauty is one of my favorite movies, and I WANNA SHIT ALL OVAIRE U!!!~!

Kidding.  Sort of.

The only thing that saves the TERRIBLE story is the fact that Conrad Hall can make anything beautiful. I firmly believe he won every award for this film. His lighting made the acting and directing seem much more brilliant, and it almost covered up the script.

Seriously, though, I can see where you're coming from here.  American Beauty does, of course, pale in comparison to Magnolia.  But what doesn't?

Conrad Hall's cinematography was brilliant.  Agreed there.  The first thing I think about when I hear American Beauty mentioned is how fucking beautiful the film is.  But so were all the performances, the writing, and the execution.  And I've read the script, and I can't help but love it.  Ball and P.T. Anderson have a lot in common, at least there.  Although, the reason I like AB so much (one of them) is theme.  It is so much like Fight Club, and I saw both of those at relatively the same time.  1999 was just a year where that kind of thing was appropriate, and both films captured that feeling superbly.  So yeah, while I kind of know what you're going to say, and why you're going to say it, I still want to hear it, because hey, I could be wrong.

[Banky]

i need to see this movie what is it called Magnolia?  Is this about the flower?

[Cecil]

i need to see this movie what is it called Magnolia?  Is this about the flower?

no its about plenty of people who are always swearing. the whole time, swearing!

[Banky]

i need to see this movie what is it called Magnolia?  Is this about the flower?

no its about plenty of people who are always swearing. the whole time, swearing!

really sounds like those kids on that cartoon southpark!

[Cecil]

'BERG-brilliant
..i can'r believe people on this board call themselves "film bufs"..and diss this guy...  

exactly. berg is one of the best (cronen, that is)

[Steve McQueen's ghost]

(tired voice) Oh God, I just watched Magnolia. I wanted to like this movie, but I just don't.  I feel like it was a waste of time. Damn it. The dumb cop was the only character that was ok. What is with you people? What did you see that I didn't? I didn't care about any of the characters! I didn't LIKE them. I didn't care about how these miserable asshole's lives connected. Not organic, not organic, not organic, that's all trumpet boy said about American Beauty. We didn't watch them same movies pal. Character developement and growth. We saw it in AB, where was it in Magnolia? Moore crying over her dying jerk husband after deciding that she loved him after simply screwing him for money? That information was thrusted on us at a lawyers office. I didn't "see" a transformation from cold-blooded money hungry bitch to loving wife, just the ends. Was it with Cruise? I hate my daddy! I come face to face with dying daddy then all of a sudden "I love daddy"! Lots of emotion with no cause for the emotions displayed. Cruise's father was terrible. At the end of AB when Spacey is about to bag his daughter's friend and she reveals that she is a virgin, yet still wants sex, Spacey becomes a father again. He snaps out of it. In the begining he is easily controlled by his wife until there is a CHANGE in his life. He reverts back to his teenage years after smoking some pot. He regains control of his life, but doesn't allow his desires to overcome his morals. His wife changes. His daughter changes big time. The attention of this boy draws her out of her shell. By the end she stands up to her friend instead of quietly going along with her. It wasn't an instant change either. at the half-way point she decides to walk home with him rather than go along with her friend. Ok I'm rambling now. It's 1:30 in the morning and I just got through watching Magnolia and I'm pretty pissed of that I lost that time and can't ever get it back. This wasn't as bad as that God awfull Rob Zombie movie, "Night of a Thousand corpses" but it wasn't good. It wasn't even all that original!!!!!!! Think!! Think about it!!!! HELLOOOO???? Pulp Fiction? A bunch of people who's live are all connected? Some live, some die? The survivors lives are changed? Ring any bells? Sweet God in heaven PF was SOOOO much better than Magnolia that it isn't even funny.
I honestly just don't get it. I can name at least 100 better movies. You cannot imagine my frustration while writing this. I just don't get it.

[NEON MERCURY]

What did you see that I didn't?

Brilliant:writing, acting, story, score, cinematography, production design, ect..

[snaporaz]

It wasn't even all that original!!!!!!! Think!! Think about it!!!! HELLOOOO???? Pulp Fiction? A bunch of people who's live are all connected?

i can't believe you're regarding pulp fiction as a precedent for movies with intersecting plot-lines.

fucking momo.

[Find Your Magali]

Cruise's father was terrible.

I can deal with people who don't "get" Magnolia. (The frogs, etc.)

I can understand people who don't enjoy Magnolia. It's not for everyone.

But, I hope what you are saying with the above statement is that "Earl Partridge was a terrible man" and not "Jason Robards was terrible in the film." If it was that second thing, well, um, I think I would simply be dumbfounded that anyone could think that.

[aclockworkjj]

Presence - with a double ass meaning
gifts I bestow, with my riff, and my flow
but you don't hear me though
think fast, catch me, yo
cause I throw what I know with a
Resonance - fo'yo'trouble-ass fiend in
weenin yo-self off the back of the shelf
Jackass crackas, bodystackas
dicktootin niggas, masturbatin' yo trigga
butcha y'all just fake-ass niggas --

-- livin' to get older
with a chip on your shoulder
'cept you think you got a grip,
cauze you hip gotta holster?
Ain't no confessor, so busta, you best just
Shut The fuck up, try to listen and learn --

heck that ego - come off it -
I'm the profit - the proffesor
Ima teach you 'bout The Worm,
who eventually turned to catch wreck
with the neck of a long time oppressor
And he's runnin from the devil, but the
debt is always gaining
And if he's worth being hurt, he's worth
bringin' pain in -
When the sunshine don't work, the Good Lord
bring the rain in.

Now that shit will help you SOLVE the case.[/size]

[Vile5]

Jesus! SMc's ghost, so... didn't you like Magnolia because it wasn't like Pulp Fiction???, i hope not...
i see you're waiting for something specific in movies, but if you don't find it, don't say it's bad just because is not as you were waiting for...
and i liked very much Pulp Fiction, in fact i loved it, but i don't think is that original, is really difficult being original these days, when masters had done almost everything (i mean, cinematography, writing, story, score, design, atmosphere even characters) i think there is still a possibility to being original, but not that much, and Tarantino is an amazing filmmaker but he didn't discovered the cinema...