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Film Discussion => The Vault => Topic started by: matt35mm on September 25, 2011, 06:06:37 PM

Title: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: matt35mm on September 25, 2011, 06:06:37 PM
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Directed by: Lynne Ramsay
Starring: Tilda Swinton, Ezra Miller, John C. Reilly

Eva puts her ambitions and career aside to give birth to Kevin. The relationship between mother and son is difficult from the very first years. When Kevin is 15, he does something irrational and unforgivable in the eyes of the entire community. Eva grapples with her own feelings of grief and responsibility. Did she ever love her son? And how much of what Kevin did was her fault? -- (C) UK Film Council

----------------------------------------------------

This was a last-minute addition to Fantastic Fest, and I was thrilled to be able to go see it. I'm pretty sure that it's my favorite film of the year so far, and I can't wait to see it again.

MY FULL REVIEW (http://mattwriteswords.com/2011/09/25/matt-writes-movie-reviews-we-need-to-talk-about-kevin-2011/)

Takeaway:

"The visual and aural sophistication is unmatched–I was deeply inspired to see a filmmaker in such control of every detail. Every single shot, every scene, every link between scenes, every sound, every song choice, all so beautifully done and put together, achieving a quality nothing short of miraculous. I was nearly in tears at how beautiful this film is. Ramsay is clearly inspired by the Terrence Malick and David Lynch of yore, and in the film's strongest moments, she surpasses these old masters, creating a whole new level of etherial cinematic beauty. A new bar has been set."
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: O. on September 25, 2011, 08:57:22 PM
I've literally read nothing about this film and am dying to watch it. I'll keep it that way to keep from spoiling anything at all, walk in there blind. With John C. Reilly in it, and Jonny Greenwood providing the score, I'd watch it even if it was presumed to be shit.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 25, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
We need to talk about a better title.

Nah just kidding, it's actually a great title.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: I Love a Magician on December 19, 2011, 07:47:49 PM
this would've much better with fewer scenes of kevin. everything else was very strong (the editing in particular is great) but kevin was almost a caricature of a sociopath.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: matt35mm on December 19, 2011, 08:03:28 PM
Agreed. But the more I think about this movie (and I've been lucky enough to see it twice), the more I think of the whole thing as Eva's warped point of view, which slightly softens that criticism of how caricatured Kevin is, because it's filtered through Eva's knowledge of what Kevin has done. We never really objectively see Kevin. I've read the book, too, which is all told through Eva's letters to her husband, so it's definitely the cause that there is no material about Kevin in the book that is not filtered through Eva.

But the whole thing is just so well put together that I find it hard to criticize it. I'm just happy to swim in these waters.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: I Love a Magician on December 19, 2011, 09:39:40 PM
Quote from: matt35mm on December 19, 2011, 08:03:28 PM
Agreed. But the more I think about this movie (and I've been lucky enough to see it twice), the more I think of the whole thing as Eva's warped point of view, which slightly softens that criticism of how caricatured Kevin is, because it's filtered through Eva's knowledge of what Kevin has done. We never really objectively see Kevin. I've read the book, too, which is all told through Eva's letters to her husband, so it's definitely the cause that there is no material about Kevin in the book that is not filtered through Eva.

i wish this didn't seem like a cop out but it does. the scenes of the younger kevin are good but i have a hard time thinking that tilda's character (who seems pretty worldly) would see her teenage son in such a clichéd, one-note way.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: matt35mm on December 20, 2011, 01:37:30 AM
Well like I said, it "slightly softens" the criticism, but I also said that I ultimately agree with that criticism. I don't know how much her being "worldly" has to do with it, because I don't think she's very good about understanding people.

I do think that Kevin is built up to be larger than life in her mind, and that what she sees in him is all the hate that she has ever had, distilled into this little boy. So, in that sense, we never see him objectively and what we do see is exaggerated. But it's true that the result is something that plays as disappointingly one-note.

On second viewing, though, it didn't bother me as much because the movie is not about Kevin. And it's still pretty much my favorite movie of the year.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: DocSportello on February 12, 2012, 08:00:38 PM
I just finished the film and I was disappointed. I went into it really wanting to love it but came out feeling underwhelmed. Tilda's performance was undeniably great as was the over-all style, but the story, to me, seemed unfulfilled. What I truly wanted was to feel as if her character came to some realization as to where to go from here. I loved how it began with her situation with the house and all the red paint and I thought "this is cool, she's going to clean the house and it's going to act as a sort of baptism; she'll slowly fix this problem she's been handed and find some form of comfort or stability". But rather than have her come into her own, it felt like it was just an excuse to use the color red again (a tool that I will say ultimately served the film wonderfully). I realize the film is tragic, but to what resolve? I found her character to be the exact same at the end as in the beginning. It seemed the film had a strong opinion but I couldn't quite find one. I just don't think it knew what it wanted to say.

I would still absolutely recommend the film. It sticks with you and you will want to discuss it if nothing else. There is a lot to love, but in the end I found there to be more shortcomings than I would have preferred.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: wilder on February 29, 2012, 12:39:39 AM
Blu-ray (http://www.amazon.com/Need-Talk-About-Kevin-Blu-ray/dp/B005LAIGGE/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1330497506&sr=1-1) on May 29, 2012

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Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2012, 11:44:16 AM
LIGHT TO MODERATE SPOILERS

I'm surprised more people haven't raved about this. It's amazing.

Somehow, Kevin's extremes really worked for me. I think it's because the games he played were so evil but so subtle. I agree with Matt that Eva's POV is somewhat unreliable, but given what factually happens in the film, I don't think she's too far off. She simplifies (thus some of the simplified characterizations of Kevin), but I don't think she warps.

Kevin is such a profoundly threatening character. I loved it. He's diabolical in these small, personalized, secret ways that just get to you. Eva is sincerely examining her own culpability, looking for things she did wrong or things she could have done better... but I think she's probably wrong to do so. Even in the final scene, Kevin is probably messing with her. Yes he certainly looks heartfelt, but that could be Eva's unreliable narration. And in the scene where he's sick and seems to have affection for her, he might have just been interested in the bows and arrows bit in the Robin Hood story. (Remember that's what launches his archery fascination.)

I'm having trouble thinking of a film character I've found more chilling than Kevin.

The people who made Martha Marcy May Marlene should have seen this first. Plot and character details aside, it's basically the same movie, better executed. (You kind of have to see both films to see what I'm getting at.) The dual-chronological structure (is there a term for that?) sucked much of the energy out of MMMM, but here it totally and precisely enhanced what it was supposed to enhance. The feeling of dread building up throughout the entire movie was incredible.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Fernando on July 03, 2012, 12:47:31 PM
yep, this movie is great.

still pains me that tilda wasnt even nominated here.

and that little shit kevin is the king joffrey of movies.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2012, 12:53:52 PM
Quote from: Fernando on July 03, 2012, 12:47:31 PMand that little shit kevin is the king joffrey of movies.

Whoah, yes, perfect analogy. Although Kevin would rip Joffrey apart.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: RegularKarate on July 03, 2012, 01:17:06 PM
Saw this last night and loved it.
I agree with JB that Mar Mar May Mar is trying to do what this film did a lot better. Not just with the nature of the timeline, but the ambiguity. I felt more like there were the same questions being raised throughout the movie as opposed to a one last "how do we end this?" cliffhanger.

I honestly felt the area the movie was lacking in was her relationship with her daughter. I would have liked to have seen more of a comparison to the way she raised her.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2012, 03:41:27 PM
Quote from: RegularKarate on July 03, 2012, 01:17:06 PMI honestly felt the area the movie was lacking in was her relationship with her daughter. I would have liked to have seen more of a comparison to the way she raised her.

Me too, but when I really think about it, I think the restraint in that department was admirable. There are still 2 or 3 key mother/daughter scenes that I think do the job sufficiently. Anything more, and I might have felt too manipulated, especially after some of the starkness of Kevin's characterizations.

Actually I found the daughter's interactions with Kevin to be more powerful. The mother/daughter relationship is obvious, but the Kevin/daughter relationship is interesting. How he exploits her sweetness and does all these somewhat typical big brother things (calling her stupid, making her fetch beverages, playing the game with the tinsel) that have just enough menace in them to be terrifying in context. (He's the context.)
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2012, 04:03:24 PM
One other response to what you said, RK. I don't think "the way she raised her" is really the issue. I don't blame her at all, and I think she even blames herself too much. The issue is how each kid responded.

SPOILERS

We saw Eva try all those things with Kevin... playing with him, teaching him, loving him, nurturing him, trying to be positively involved in his life. Even when his response, repeatedly, was to try to destroy her soul, she always eventually tried again. That's part of her tragedy. These attempts went through his adolescence, all the way up to the shooting ("Want to do something Saturday?" / "I might be tied up"), and even through the end of the movie. (She wants to believe she's finally broken through in that final scene, but I'm not convinced.)
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Alexandro on July 13, 2012, 11:10:00 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2012, 11:44:16 AM


The people who made Martha Marcy May Marlene should have seen this first. Plot and character details aside, it's basically the same movie, better executed. (You kind of have to see both films to see what I'm getting at.) The dual-chronological structure (is there a term for that?) sucked much of the energy out of MMMM, but here it totally and precisely enhanced what it was supposed to enhance. The feeling of dread building up throughout the entire movie was incredible.

I saw both movies and liked them both. Aside from the past-present-past structure I don't really see that much of a resemblance, specially since as everyone else has pointed out, Kevin uses a lot of the "kid from hell" techniques to the point i felt I was watching The Omen or something, and MMMM has it's own much more subdued atmosphere. Could you elaborate?
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 13, 2012, 02:35:35 PM
This movie builds up the sense of dread successfully. It's more linear, and more powerful.

MMMM had flashes of menace and some disturbing bits, and I could tell it was trying to build up that same sense of dread, but it failed in that goal for me. Several reasons. For the whole duration I was trying to guess how bad things would get and what lurked below the surface, etc. Since the movie prompts you to do that over and over again, you inevitably overshoot. The whole thing was anticlimactic. Maybe they're going with the theory that things are more frightening when they're unseen, and there was certainly some of that, but in general it was all a bit too mushy and indefinite, unfortunately by design. The "what is real?" gimmick is probably even more problematic. Instead of being mindblowing or something, it just kind of deflates the menace of the cult, particularly in retrospect.

By contrast, the dread buildup in Kevin pays off. You pretty much see it coming, but that somehow makes it more dreadful. It just plain worked.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Alexandro on July 13, 2012, 09:32:47 PM
I guess I know what you mean.

SPOILERS FOR BOTH Kevin and Martha Marcy...

I just don't think they were aiming for the same thing. Yes, in Kevin there's an increasingly sense of dread but it was more about finding out just what the hell the little fucker did than some fear that something terrible was going to happen to Tilda Swinton's character. In MMMM, besides that slow discovery the details of what really happened to her during her stay at the farm was the real suggestion that all this was coming back to get her even though she had already escaped.

I agree with both arguments in the sense that yes, the suspense and dread in Kevin were more effective yet also a little disappointing in the way the kid was portrayed (I mean there were moments you almost expected the guy to smirk at the camera), and also that in MMMM the pace and distant tone manage to break the tension.

About the ending of MMMM, I think it was appropriate for the film, it makes more sense when you think about it.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 13, 2012, 11:11:27 PM
SPOILERS (stop reading this thread)

Don't get me wrong, MMMM is still a good movie. Just not great in my opinion.

The dread in Kevin is not about feeling that Tilda Swinton is at risk. She's not; she's the aftermath. There's dread because we have an idea of what's coming. In MMMM, the dread was mostly fractured and ineffectual, because we have no idea what's going on. It's weird... you think it would be the opposite in both cases.

The film worked because Kevin's menace was there from beginning to end. MMMM is just not as powerful, because it's spread so thin and relentlessly goes for unearned atmosphere.

I'm trying to pinpoint Kevin's cartoonish behavior that people keep talking about. Are you talking about the stuff that happens when he's really young? Well yeah of course that's going to be brash and transparent, he's like 5 years old. Whatever, didn't bother me at all. What really gets me is the very subtle diabolical games he plays with his mother... of which there are plenty.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Alexandro on July 16, 2012, 06:24:37 PM
SPOILERS

The kid behaves like a demon from hell pretty much in every scene he's in, which is is fine in the context of her POV, the idea is fine I mean. I think if it were toned down a bit it would work better, but then who know if the film would be so entertaining.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: squints on July 22, 2012, 06:30:54 PM
Spoilers!


So i enjoyed this movie on a few levels. The style is the strongest point of the film for sure. Ramsay's direction alone has prompted me to see her other films. But i had a few issues that you guys haven't brought up yet concerning the story....


First off, for as seriously as this film takes itself, often times it is hysterical. I'm thinking specifically of how absolutely awful the townspeople are to Tilda Swinton's character. She gets punched in the face by an elderly woman, her house vandalized, her eggs broken etc... just constantly getting shit on and it gets so absurd that it made me laugh out loud a number of times.

This particular issue with the film made me question Why? Why are the people so awful to her? One of the central themes of the film seems to be if Kevin's attitude was Nature vs Nurture? Is he just inherently evil? Or was his mother so terrible with her absolute lack of maternal instincts (which seem to virtually never kick in) that it drove him to go on his murder spree? And even if it is his mother's doing, why would the townspeople react that way? This kind of violence is very familiar to our cultural consciousness and when a similar unmotivated killer opened fire in a movie theater a few days ago did people start automatically blaming his parents? Has there ever been any backlash to the families of a school shooter? I'm assuming not.

I kept thinking throughout the entire film that whatever it was that Kevin did, he some how convinced the world that it was his mother's fault, yet she is free to take pain killers and drink wine but he's the one in jail? When its finally revealed what he did there's no reason for the public to think that this is somehow his mother's fault is there?

Overall though, I really liked the way the film was edited, the screenplay structured, the color schemes throughout, the music...production-wise, this was just fantastic.

I just have a few issues with the tone of the film and the way the story plays out. 
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: 72teeth on July 22, 2012, 06:35:16 PM
soory if this was pointed out already and i missed it,

but has anyone expressed their thought on whether or not the first scene might actually be the last scene chronologically

its a beautifully cathartic scene if that is the case

i do love this movie too
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: squints on July 22, 2012, 06:40:23 PM
Quote from: 72teeth on July 22, 2012, 06:35:16 PM
soory if this was pointed out already and i missed it,

this just means you didn't read any of the thread and you just want us to discuss your questions! not fair!!

Quote from: 72teeth on July 22, 2012, 06:35:16 PM
but has anyone expressed their thought on whether or not the first scene might actually be the last scene chronologically

I assumed it was before she had kevin, but i was only really gauging the before/after continuity on the length of her hair... i think it could've worked interpreted either way
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2012, 07:29:43 PM
SPOILERS

I disagree with your interpretation, Squints. I think she had plenty of maternal instincts but just couldn't get through to Kevin. That didn't even stop her from trying. All the way to the end, she yearned for that connection. Kevin just made it impossible.

I do agree about the overreaction of some of the townspeople. I couldn't sympathize with them at all... they seemed like monsters... but that's probably the point. It could be another thing that's exaggerated because it's from her perspective, and she's a somewhat unreliable narrator.

A lot is left unrevealed in the movie, so it could very well be that the defense during the trial, or Kevin in one of his tapes blamed his mother in the way he turned out, and/or maybe it was spun that way in the media. And yes, there was actually some serious suspicion and judgment directed at the families of the shooters after Columbine.

Also... clearly not everyone is reacting that way. Remember the wheelchair-bound victim who approaches her and is very sincerely friendly and seems to be reaching out to her. There are 2 or 3 extreme examples of hate toward her (a vocal minority), but the majority of it is subtle glances here and there, awkwardness when she runs into one of the parents of a victim, all of which are magnified by her misguided shame/guilt and her crippling self-consciousness.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 03, 2012, 03:39:22 PM
This guy totally reminded me of Kevin, especially his attitude and tone of voice. I wouldn't be surprised to find a few bodies in his basement.

http://www.onthemedia.org/2012/nov/02/gun-you-can-print-home/
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: socketlevel on November 03, 2012, 05:12:52 PM
gotta be honest, I kinda like his stance. He was very well spoken, he's very open to the counterpoint but he isn't letting emotion get in the way of his point of view.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: The Ultimate Badass on December 08, 2012, 02:40:29 AM
I sort of enjoyed this movie. It's essentially an indictment of bad mothering.

Spoilers

The movie opens with Kevin's mom amidst La Tomatina, a big tomato fight in Spain. This is filmmaker shorthand for Kevin's mom is a free spirit.

In the hospital, after Kevin is born there is scene where Kevin's dad in cradling him, and his mother is indifferently staring off, presumably contemplating the end of her free-spirited ways, the end of her dreams, aspirations, etc. She pays no attention to crying child she just birthed.

Infant Kevin does not receive his mother's affection, so he cries. Her answer is to take him to construction sites, so his cries are drown out by the noise of jackhammers. At one point she stands over him and says that she was happy before he came into her life.

As he grows older he realizes he can get his mom's attention by doing bad things. He resists toilet training, wearing diapers way past the age children are supposed to. When he shits his pants he gets his mothers attention. His behavior becomes driven by the need to receive his mothers attention, because she is so inattentive to him and his needs.  He realizes the only way to receive her attention is through negative behavior.  This pattern repeats itself through childhood and then adolescence, where in one scene we see his mother opening a door to discover him masturbating and he looks at her intensely and continues masturbating even harder.

So the movie follows this dynamic to its ultimate climax where Kevin commits mass-murder, including his father and sibling as well many schoolmates. And what is mom's reaction? She gives him attention. She sticks by her child, even though she's being attacked and utterly rejected by her community. His reward for the ultimate crime is his mother's love. In the end, he becomes her whole life, supplanting everything she's ever valued or wanted in life. He wins totally.

Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 08, 2012, 10:10:35 AM
That's not a bad interpretation. I think I'm due for a re-watch, because I might have been too unequivocally on the mom's side. I must have forgotten about the details immediately post-birth. Or I must have sympathized with her having to deal with this constantly crying baby.

I think it's complex, though. While Kevin is still very young, she seems to really sincerely try with him. But he's sort of an evil little kid. She continues trying, continues giving him attention. He is unimpressed. She is thrilled whenever they seem to have a moment together, but it's fleeting. Even into Kevin's adolescence, she craves those moments, and Kevin relishes the process of destroying them, and destroying her.

Also, if she is so intent on being a free spirit, why does she want the second child? She doesn't seem to want to make Kevin jealous or anything. She's simply starving for that mother/child connection, which she so obviously wishes she could have with Kevin.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: 72teeth on December 08, 2012, 07:41:05 PM
Great analysis UB!

but i still want to be convinced that the La Tomatina scene is really the final scene..

but, ive only seen it once..

i gotta see it agian.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: ©brad on December 08, 2012, 08:11:07 PM
Holy crap! This was a fucking movie. I'm officially obsessed with Lynn Ramsey and can't wait for what she does next.

In my first intro to cinema class my professor (who looked exactly like Robert Altman, but I think every college has a film professor who looks like Altman) spent an entire week preaching to us that sound is the oft-forgotten element of cinema, and you can always tell a great director when they use sound to their full advantage (PTA being one of them, and Lynn Ramsey is obviously another). How haunting was that opening shot with the sprinklers! We have no idea why we're hearing this, and why such a pedestrian sound is so haunting, and when it's finally revealed, I honestly lost my breath. It's amazing how something as simple as sprinkles can more thrilling and cinematic than million-dollar special effects. Fucking sprinkles, man. 

Tilda Swinton remains one of my favorite actors but the gold here goes to Ezra Miller. This skinny little bitch crafted one of the scariest characters I can think of.

UB you pose an interesting theory but I think it oversimplifies Kevin's disposition. Mothers go through emotional rollercoasters post-birth and all babies can be assholes. I felt mom was rightfully frustrated but never neglectful. She was always trying.

I do love the idea of the tomato scene being the final scene.

Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 04, 2016, 10:44:32 PM
Just added to Netflix. See it!
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Something Spanish on January 27, 2016, 09:20:34 AM
I did! Wish Lynne Ramsay made more movies, she really uplifted the source material to one of the most effective and haunting movies made this past decade.
Title: Re: We Need To Talk About Kevin
Post by: Something Spanish on January 27, 2016, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: The Ultimate Badass on December 08, 2012, 02:40:29 AM
In the end, he becomes her whole life, supplanting everything she's ever valued or wanted in life. He wins totally.

I wouldn't call it a total win: the movie ends with a nervous Kevin about to turn to turn 18, getting ready for a lifetime violent convict rape.