All That Jazz

[Gold Trumpet]

NYC- when you learn to separate exactly what I said from your own beliefs on All That Jazz, get back to me. I'm questioning All That Jazz's dramatic accomplishment and speaking of 8 1/2 as superficiality in only what the film is dealing with subject wise and saying that the dramatic depth is the film's achievement to dramatize the condition of the artist in modern times.

And also, being a long time reader on Kubrick, tell me where you got that quote. I likely would have come across it one time or another in all my books about him.

~rougerum

[mutinyco]

Can't recall where I saw the quote. It was made somewhere in the early '80s. Somebody asked him what he thought might be the best film and he replied like: I don't know...All That Jazz. He wasn't saying it like it was some dogmatic statement, but a toss away. I'm certain of it. I'm not going to go digging though everything. But he's also been quoted as saying that about The Godfather. I wouldn't put much stock in it one way or another. It was a way of making a point.

But I think your argument is really about nothing more than semantics. Jazz received 9 Oscar nominations and won the Palme d'Or at Cannes. You can argue all you like, but I don't think you have much on your side except your opinion.

I don't think 8 1/2 had anything to do with "modern times." I don't think it was about the times at all. That was La Dolce Vita. I think 8 1/2 was about him. Pure and simple. Just as All That Jazz was about Fosse, pure and simple. You can try to apply more if you'd like, but it's not inherent to the text.

[Gold Trumpet]

You can argue all you like, but I don't think you have much on your side except your opinion.

What the fuck else should one have? Relying on public opinion explains nothing. It just says what they think and can always be discredited with how obvious "bad" movies were given approval by them.

I don't think 8 1/2 had anything to do with "modern times." I don't think it was about the times at all.

ever hear of the idea that you can explain something universal when only talking about something in particular? That you can focus on the trials of one situation and it can be understood and felt to relating to a feeling for various other things? When I say 8 1/2 is about modern man, I say that the pressure felt by Guido can be understood by others and applied to their own situations even if mostly different. Social commentary or wide reaching stories don't have to be directly about a situation at all to be felt on that level.

~rougerum

[mutinyco]

It's still something you're applying to the material. You could say the same thing abour PDL. But PTA is straight up in saying he had absolutely no agenda whatsoever. But if you're going to pursue that argument it could probably be made toward every movie ever made in some way. But if you must, you must -- Jazz is about modern man's path toward self-destruction as an extention of his flirtation with the greatest fuck of all. How he continuously seeks pleasure over enlightenment and how he mistakes doing great work with being great, no matter what it does to those around him.

All That Jazz is not 8 1/2 in the slightest. I've watched it 3 times since I bought the DVD yesterday, and each time I'm more astonished at this film. The only reason I'm even thinking of 8 1/2 is because of you. It's a totally different film about a totally different subject. I think it has more in common with Dr. Strangelove than 8 1/2.

All you have is your opinion. But you've backed it up with nothing. This film is as conceptually and technically influential as anything made in the past quarter century, whether people are aware of it or not. It basically defined what would be done on MTV and was light years ahead of Scorsese in terms of cutting and music. In fact, the very use of cutting in relation to dance IS FOSSE. He was a choreographer onstage, but understood that for film different rules applied. He wasn't Astaire, who refused to cut. He understood that movies are about rhythm.

Your argument seems to be based upon the opinion that you like 8 1/2 better, so this is lousy. I'm saying 8 1/2 is better, but this is a masterpiece of near quality. There are few films that bear an artist's soul as this one does.

[NEON MERCURY]

Your argument seems to be based upon the opinion that you like 8 1/2 better, so this is lousy. I'm saying 8 1/2 is better, but this is a masterpiece of near quality. There are few films that bear an artist's soul as this one does.

....and....all-that-jazz..da-da-da-done!

[Gold Trumpet]

Even if PTA had no agenda with PDL, who is he to say how other people will interpret his film? It doesn't matter what his intentions are because, really, in the terms of the open work, PDL isn't even his film anymore. It belongs to everyone and can be arranged into different meanings as people identify with the film in different ways. That just doesn't lead it to meaning anything and everything, but given the quality of an argument to it meaning something that will be an extension of the film, it can mean more and definitely does to other people. The quality of the argument in saying how it means more is what is crucial.

And to speak on Fosse for his contributation to dance in cinema. His accomplishment is not as grand standing as you think. Gene Kelly, who pushed the musical further, introduced dance on screen that used editing, moving cameras and a different style of dance that was to be cinematic. It can be seen as a connecting thread between Astaire and Fosse given the traditionism of dance in Kelly even if different from Astaire. But, yes, with his infusion of editing and cutting, Fosse steered the train to the soul less place it is in now with dance half assed and cute editing trying to make up for that half assing. Kelly, who kept dance in place, best understood it.

And why does everyone say my arguments are crap or whatever because I back them up with nothing? If I do this, can't you at least get specific on how before being courteous enough to throw start throwing mud at me?

The relation to 8 1/2 is the simple story of seeing the artist brought down by a life crisis and trying to understand his greater role in what dominates his life, art. Simple details of what they exactly do and what happening to them is different, but the general feeling is similiar in what they represent and what their higher problem is. If All That Jazz is different because it goes into a full musical where only Fellini's camera movements suggest a musical could be made, then it is differences on the technical and structural level. The higher aim though is near similiar.

~rougerum

[SoNowThen]

I like Roy Schreider.

[mutinyco]

We slam you because you take a holy attitude without offering anything on the table. They're not similar films. When I first saw Jazz years ago I thought there was a passing similarity. Having seen both mulptiple times they're totally different films with different aims. One is about a mid-life crisis the other one is about death.

I wasn't making an argument as to who was a better filmmaker/choreographer, so much as I was showing which style is more relevant today. Fosse has had more impact on modern cutting and camera placement. Period. I'm not taking anything away from Gene Kelley. He was great at what he did. So was Fosse. In fact, Fosse's work, done in a purely analog manner, pretty much holds its own against modern digital editing.

Once again, I believe your attitude on Jazz, and film in general, is influenced by a critic's POV. I have no reason to believe you're an artist or understand the mindset of an artist and his process. You may be well-read, but your conclusions aren't well established. Your observations are of an outsider looking in, rather than an insider looking outward.

And as for PTA, if you're applying his work to various social issues and observations, then you're doing so outside of the text. Most art is generalized enough that you can juxtapose it to larger ideas. The French are notorious for this. But unless you can find intent within the text of the art or unless it takes on the form of a social symbol based on the times, your ideas are applications. They're not inherent.

[Gold Trumpet]

Now you are to saying I have a "Holy" attitude towards without offering anything on the table. Not much of a difference between what you said last time and now.

Jazz isn't just about death. It is about a crisis of the artist that results in his death. What happens in the in between can most definitely be brought to similarity with 8 1/2 in that the artist knows his life is going to end and is trying to make ammends with with his loved ones and trying to realize the importance in his own life as his art was cluttering it. With 8 1/2, it can also be seen as an end for Guido's life in ways and trying to make ammends because his marriage is ending, the one relationship dominant through the entire movie and Guido is trying to come to realization of understanding her importance to him in the clutter of his art. He also is trying to make peace with his all friends and comrades before his behavior towards them drives them away from him.

Again, how does the insight of an artist lend further into the quality of a film than a critic's? Why is it so black and white and not judged upon by each individual and their own experience and intelligence? What happens when a person is/was a critic and was/is a filmmaker also? I don't mind being called of coming from the critic's point of view. I have happy foundations there. I do mind general judgements saying who I am and what I can't do and so far.

I agree Punch-Drunk Love seems slim in contending itself to social issues, but this is one film. On the other hand, I think it is a very valuable film in extending itself to other life experiences that, detail wise, may be completely different. Reason why I say this is inherent because the film is a character study of one man, a man other people may identify with and find own personal reasons of love or hate for. That exercises use of the term "an open work" and extending the narrative to points where it is limitless and beyond the creators' own control.

~rougerum

[mutinyco]

You asked why and I gave you an answer. Instead of stopping to ponder what I said you got defensive and tried to make more points. That's my point. You proved it.

Gideon isn't making ammends with anybody. Anything he means takes place in his fantasies. Even then, taking to Jessica Lange's death, he admits it's mostly bullshit. He's just an unrepentant sleaze.

Jazz is so modern in its concept of filmmaking that it could be released today and be relevant. You seem to think I'm knocking 8 1/2. Read what I've said. I'm simply supporting this masterpiece. It's by an artist about an artist. That's why a critic isn't going to get it the same way an artist would. That can be said of any art -- a movie by blacks about blacks will ultimately have a different resonance with blacks than whites or Asians. And so on. It doesn't mean you can't relate. You're just an outsider looking in.

[Gold Trumpet]

Anything he means takes place in his fantasies. Even then, taking to Jessica Lange's death, he admits it's mostly bullshit. He's just an unrepentant sleaze.

Isn't that a pretty good summing up the main themes in 8 1/2? Guido, an artist who is completely unapologetic for his adultery, is pressured into situations that may see him changing but the only change shown is through his fantasies which really could mean nothing at all. I don't think you're knocking 8 1/2 really that much and don't care if you are. I'm just trying to say both films are similiar and All That Jazz is weaker.

And get off your two dollar identification of this situation as critic/artist. I said I liked being called from that because it deals with my foundations. It doesn't say who I am or not. Just deal the situation as "how you see it." and "how I see it." You have no idea what I do now or what I have done. And to disprove your theory anyways, I'm sure out there somewhere there is an artist who actually does see this thing from my point of view.

~rougerum

[soixante]

As Time magazine said about Fosse in its review of "Big Deal," his last Broadway musical, "Fosse is an original."  

He won an Oscar, a Tony and an Emmy, all in the same year.

He directed five films, three of which were nominated for Best Director and Best Picture.  He won Best Director for "Cabaret," beating out Coppola for "The Godfather."

Very few people master two completely different mediums, film and Broadway.  Fosse mastered the arts of choreography, stage direction and filmmaking.  Think about it.  Who else has mastered all of these disciplines, winning the top awards in each field?  Only Fosse.

"All That Jazz" certainly influenced MTV, Adrian Lyne and all that.  "Cabaret" was hugely influential, too.

Fosse was a genius, but even geniuses have their fonts of inspiration.  In his case, it was Fellini.  "Sweet Charity" was an Americanization of Fellini's "Nights of Cabiria."  "Juliet of the Spirits" and "Spirits of the Dead" influenced Fosse's work, along with "81/2."  In fact, Fosse used Fellini's cinematographer, Giuseppe Rotunno, to shoot "All That Jazz."

What's cool about "All That Jazz" is that Fosse doesn't glorify his alter ego, in fact, Joe Gideon comes off as a highly flawed (to put it mildly) protagonist.  There is as much self-loathing in the film as there is self-grandeur.

[mutinyco]

Thank you.

[SoNowThen]

I would just like to point out yet again that Lenny is a brilliant piece of cinema.

I will soon see ATJ.

[Pubrick]

I would just like to point out yet again that Lenny is a brilliant piece of cinema..

fuck ATJ, i havn't seen it so i can say that. i can't see it being better than LENNY. i just saw that like 3 times this week, shit, damn, that's sum great biopic ish. dusty was really riskin it back in the day. now u couldn't tell by lookin at him, but he had sum balls.