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Film Discussion => The Small Screen => Topic started by: MacGuffin on April 29, 2014, 08:29:47 AM

Title: The Leftovers
Post by: MacGuffin on April 29, 2014, 08:29:47 AM
(http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/screencrush.com/files/2014/04/Leftovers_Tease_Poster_Final.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shn1mPejr_4


'The Leftovers': HBO Orders Series From Damon Lindelof Based On Tom Perrotta's Bestseller

HBO has ordered Damon Lindelof's adaptation of Tom Perrotta's "The Leftovers" to series. The project is set up at Warner Bros. Television, where Lindelof is under an overall deal, through his Adventure Corps production company.

The order is for a 10-episode freshman season, and will mark Lindelof's first TV project since the conclusion of ABC's "Lost." Lindelof will serve as showrunner, while Perrotta, Peter Berg, Sarah Aubrey, Ron Yerxa and Albert Berger are also on board as executive producers. Lindelof and Perotta co-wrote the pilot script, and Berg is set to direct.

In "The Leftovers," the Rapture happens -- but not quite like it’s supposed to. It tells the story of the people who didn’t make the cut, and a world that will never be the same. The project stars Justin Theroux as Kevin, "the police chief who's trying to maintain some semblance of normalcy in a world that is beginning to reject that notion," according to The Hollywood Reporter. Liv Tyler also makes her TV debut as Meg, "a young woman about to be married who needs an escape. She becomes a target for recruitment by members of an enigmatic cult."

The rest of the cast includes Amy Brenneman, Christopher Eccleston, Chris Zylka, Margaret Qualley, Carrie Coon, Emily Meade, Amanda Warren, Ann Dowd, Michael Gaston, Max Carver, Charlie Carver, Annie Q, Paterson Joseph and Brad Leland.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: ©brad on April 29, 2014, 04:28:11 PM
This actually looks good!
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on April 29, 2014, 04:42:05 PM
I just hope they don't throw a bunch of mysteries together and barely answer them...again.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on April 29, 2014, 10:21:19 PM
(http://u.cubeupload.com/caramoangifs/kV2V3T.gif)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Kal on June 30, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Did anyone see this? I haven't yet but been hearing it's really good. Would love to get some other opinions before I check it out!

Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on June 30, 2014, 08:28:15 PM
I liked it. It's a pilot and pilots are weird, but this one had a vibe I liked; the story and the characters can lead to something great. I'm excited for the next episode.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on June 30, 2014, 08:51:53 PM
I haven't had a chance to sit down and watch it yet, but I hear its super bleak, so I'm looking forward to it.  Out of context, those last two clauses together would look bizarre.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 01, 2014, 12:25:11 PM
It has potential. I'll watch at least another episode or two. Much depends on where they're going with things. I'm not sure it could hold my interest without some serious developments happening very soon, even if that's only the emergence of a mythology.

The show does have a few problems... 25-year-old high school students, a sullen teen stock character, and various other things that could metastasize into real annoyances.

The execution is good, though, and Justin Theroux is solid.

I haven't had a chance to sit down and watch it yet, but I hear its super bleak, so I'm looking forward to it.  Out of context, those last two clauses together would look bizarre.

It's at least a shade or two less bleak than Hannibal.


SPOILERS

The youth bacchanalia thing will get tiresome if they don't shift focus pretty soon. Although the girl protagonist's disillusionment at the party was interesting. That tear drop definitely worked for me.

Maybe this is a pet peeve of mine, but there were two moments when Justin Theroux's character could have simply said one sentence to assuage his daughter's concerns. First, just tell her why you don't want her going to the parade. You expect violence to break out. Simple. Second, when she asks why a dog was in your trunk, don't just stare at her with a dumb look on your face looking vaguely guilty. Tell her you found the dog dead. Simple.

I think mostly it annoys me when unrealistic gaps in communication are used to create artificial conflict.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on July 06, 2014, 09:22:51 PM

SPOILERS

Maybe this is a pet peeve of mine, but there were two moments when Justin Theroux's character could have simply said one sentence to assuage his daughter's concerns. First, just tell her why you don't want her going to the parade. You expect violence to break out. Simple. Second, when she asks why a dog was in your trunk, don't just stare at her with a dumb look on your face looking vaguely guilty. Tell her you found the dog dead. Simple.

I think mostly it annoys me when unrealistic gaps in communication are used to create artificial conflict.

Lost was the king of that trope and it's really annoying. Everything else about this was pretty solid. It doesn't seem like they're going to say a damn thing about why people disappeared but at least I'm ready for it this time.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 06, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
Hmm I don't remember that from Lost at all. Gaps in communication in that show were usually due to people being separated or needing to keep a secret. In that scene I talked about, they're literally standing there staring at each other, and he inexplicably fails to utter one single sentence that would effortlessly clear things up.

But seriously if this turns into a Lost-bashing thread, I'm going to have to step away. (It's been contained to the shoutbox thusfar.)

I feel like this show is in a dead zone right now, where neither the characters nor the meta content are interesting enough. It probably just needs a couple more hours.

Mostly I'm itching to know if it's going to have a substantial mystery or mythology element. I'm sure I could read more about the book, but I'd rather not spoil myself. If it's just about surviving in this world, I'm not sure it's going to work for me.

Anyway, looking forward to tonight's episode.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on July 07, 2014, 12:08:39 AM
Lindelof's involvement in anything means that Lost bashing is inevitable, I'll at least try to make it pertinent. In fairness to the dead dog inquiry, the scene cut away after Kevin's derp face so you could reasonably assume the daughter got the necessary info off camera. Lost's gaps in communication had more to do with how character's phrased things, which were usually an indicator of the writers leaving as many pathways available to them as possible. Sure, they're kind of different things, but they're both there for narrative convenience.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 07, 2014, 12:58:36 AM
Those are certainly different things. Characters in Lost phrasing things in open-ended ways was a problem? Why would anyone with a problem like that continue watching Lost after the pilot? The revisionism about Lost has reached a new level when basic ambiguity = nefarious narrative convenience. Jeez.

In fairness to the dead dog inquiry, the scene cut away after Kevin's derp face so you could reasonably assume the daughter got the necessary info off camera.

Nope. There's an extended awkward silence, and he walks away.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 07, 2014, 01:40:21 AM
I am weirdly still open to loving or hating this, but it's stringing me along for now. Things are moving fast enough.

SPOILERS

Totally prepared for the possibility that this show is actually about dismantling mysteries. Hugging guy (who I sincerely hope is not a magical negro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro)) seems to be full of it. His insistence that "this girl is everything" seems suspiciously tailor-made for that kid. More evidence for the lack of mystery/mythology, obviously: the bagel story, and the dog hunter being real. Potential counter-examples: dad knowing about the visitor (lucky guess?), Kevin dreaming about fire and waking up to it (maybe he heard or smelled the fire).

Okay and what was with the mayor and Kevin's dad?
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on July 07, 2014, 01:15:39 PM

Nope. There's an extended awkward silence, and he walks away.

Yeah you're right, huh.

They did it again this week. "Who was that guy at the door?" "Nobody."  Who would be satisfied with that answer? I also giggled at the "did you steal my bagel?" exchange, which was also dropped immediately. The show has a better sense of humor than I thought it did, it just doesn't know it.

The Holy Wayne story is already more interesting than the others.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 07, 2014, 02:26:57 PM
The joke about The Wire was pretty good.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Axolotl on July 07, 2014, 11:19:17 PM
The joke about The Wire was pretty good.
Way less funny than the greatest moment of HBO synergy ever -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUdZhMsSZcA

Which also brings to attention how humorless this show is in general. It seems like it doesn't know how weird or ridiculous it actually is. Look at the ridiculously self-important opening credits to see how seriously this show takes itself. I'm not optimistic even though apparently the next 2 eps are supposed to be great.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 07, 2014, 11:31:06 PM
Which also brings to attention how humorless this show is in general. It seems like it doesn't know how weird or ridiculous it actually is. Look at the ridiculously self-important opening credits to see how seriously this show takes itself.

I measure all humorlessness against The Walking Dead, so this show is actually not bad.

I feel like the pilot had a more severe self-importance. Even as things get more serious, I feel like it is acknowledging absurdities.

SPOILERS

Although (I forgot to mention this), I was not on board at all with that final woodchopping scene. As the music swelled, I  honestly tried to get into it, but it just didn't take.

Also you're right about the opening credits. Change em.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Tictacbk on July 09, 2014, 01:10:30 AM
Which also brings to attention how humorless this show is in general. It seems like it doesn't know how weird or ridiculous it actually is.

Isn't almost everything regarding the bagel supposed to be funny? Also everything with those twins is funny. Or at least tries to be funny. It's not all just unintentional humor like The Walking Dead.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on July 09, 2014, 08:41:44 AM
I thought the statue was pretty unintentionally hilarious.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on July 09, 2014, 09:41:08 AM
Which also brings to attention how humorless this show is in general. It seems like it doesn't know how weird or ridiculous it actually is.

Isn't almost everything regarding the bagel supposed to be funny? Also everything with those twins is funny. Or at least tries to be funny. It's not all just unintentional humor like The Walking Dead.

Yes. I followed Lindelof when he was on Twitter, and he's funny. The show knows it's funny. A bagel, guys! A bagel and, yet, it was terrifying. I'm glad it wasn't a mystic disparition, though.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 09, 2014, 10:46:46 AM
I thought the statue was pretty unintentionally hilarious.

That was intentionally funny. The mayor at the first meeting mentioned something about how bad the statue was. That it was "scary" or something... don't remember exactly. It was fleeting.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on July 09, 2014, 04:30:43 PM
I thought the statue was pretty unintentionally hilarious.

That was intentionally funny. The mayor at the first meeting mentioned something about how bad the statue was. That it was "scary" or something... don't remember exactly. It was fleeting.

I thought they meant that it being covered in a sheet was creepy, but I guess you're right. Everyone's solemn look as it was revealed made me laugh pretty hard.

So far the most fun mystery to discuss isn't how everyone disappeared but what is and isn't meant to be funny.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 14, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
Decent episode. The show is compelling and has momentum even when devoting an entire hour to one character. Excited for the next developments; pieces are clearly moving into place for something more lively.

Side note. This (http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/leftovers-two-boats-and-helicopter-206853) is probably the single worst AV club review I've read. She got almost every important detail of the episode wrong. Honestly if I were her I would just print out that review, with the comments, and hand it in as my resignation letter.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: diggler on July 14, 2014, 12:39:34 PM
I liked this one a lot too, although the ending did that thing again. "What happened to you?" "I'm fine... I'm fine."  No you're not, you had a serious incident that you need to explain for context.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2014, 12:40:55 AM
SPOILERS.

Title of this episode was "B.J. And The A.C."

Baby Jesus and the Antichrist, right? Christine's baby being the Antichrist.

There's enough strange stuff happening at this point that the show officially does need to deliver on it, or Lindelof is digging himself a hole from which he will never emerge. I don't care about the mystery of what happened and don't expect that to be answered; I do care about the mystery of what's happening now. In this episode: Kevin's car dying, but more importantly all the prophetic stuff.

I think at the very least, the show has a problem with world-building. The Guilty Remnant is suddenly national? Also it's unclear what role religion plays in the world today... They had public prayer in school and at the police station, but people are nihilistic and the church was basically empty?

This episode had yet another misunderstanding caused by inexplicable silence, to drive the plot, when Christine simply failed to tell the doctor where her injury came from. Just failed to say anything. Not even "oh, I know how this looks, it wasn't this guy." Are they planning one of these per episode?
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Tictacbk on July 24, 2014, 01:05:36 AM
This episode had yet another misunderstanding caused by inexplicable silence, to drive the plot, when Christine simply failed to tell the doctor where her injury came from. Just failed to say anything. Not even "oh, I know how this looks, it wasn't this guy." Are they planning one of these per episode?

This was the first one to really bother me. Why the hell didn't she say anything AND why the hell did he run out of there like he was guilty? That made absolutely no sense.

Also I'm starting to think Lindelof is the perfect guy for this show.  After the LOST experience you know he's gotta have an idea of where everything is going this time around. Anyone else and I might not be so sure.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2014, 02:21:06 PM
HBO orders a second helping of The Leftovers

http://www.avclub.com/article/hbo-orders-second-helping-leftovers-208109

HBO has given a second season to The Leftovers, its ribald bedroom farce in which characters stumble around the rambling country manor that is Earth looking for their partners, only to be told that they “just missed them,” because they were raptured or whatever. The renewal is the most official, yet hardly the first pronouncement to be made about whether someone is or isn’t giving up on the show—and in this case HBO is declaring that it’s sticking with it, believing that it will only get better: “We are thrilled to bring back The Leftovers for a second season with the exceptional talents of Damon Lindelof and Tom Perrotta... It has been truly exciting to see the overwhelming response to their provocative and original storytelling,” HBO said in a statement. “We look forward to continuing the journey as the show delves deeper into the lives of those who remain.”

Hopefully that last part is a hint that the second season will spend more time on chapters focusing on individual characters, which—like the Lost episodes they resemble—have been the richest in storytelling, and the most adept at not wasting time on any of the terrible teenagers. Or possibly it’s a hint that the finale involves the discovery of a secret hatch inside Justin Theroux, allowing him to climb down to previously unimagined depths of wallowing.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
SPOILERS

Everyone still watching? I'm enjoying it.

So Kevin finds himself alone in his house, now having lost both his wife and daughter to the Guilty Remnant. He has also learned that they plan to brutally martyr each of their members. How can he not go into full attack mode at this point?

Jill joining the Guilty Remnant is sort of perfect; she is exactly the kind of insufferable nihilist that belongs there. I am, however, wondering how much sympathy we're supposed to have for the Remnanteers. I have zero sympathy for Kevin's wife (hate her, actually), and not much for Jill either.

Can't Kevin just yank Jill right out of there, since she's a minor in his custody and has to go to school and stuff?

The show's greatest weakness has been Jill's gross friend, Amy. She adds absolutely nothing except whiny skeevy grossness. I know it was a fakeout, but I was so happy when I thought it was her opening the cult's door, because she'd have to shut her mouth. So what now then? Will she end up working in that motel with Dana Brody? Or can something else happen to her? Can she get mauled by that dog Jill set loose? Just aim for the vocal cords.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on August 21, 2014, 09:14:23 PM
I'm watching it still, and liking it, although I will admit it's more for the overt intensity, almost melodrama, than anything else. It's still got a great cast and performances, but specifically it's the elevation characteristic of each episode is what REALLY draws me in each week. Things just build and build and BOOM. You're just there with it (for the most part).

I really thought Jill's friend was the one Garvey had an affair with, and that's trickery on behalf of the show, I'm sure. The only reason I like having her around as a character is that I knew girls in real life like that back in the day. Not exactly girls I wanted to be friends with, but ones who would talk off my female friends' ears, were obnoxious attention-seekers, and yet my friends would somehow be drawn to that, as useless as this person seemed to me. She's a good counter to Jill, although I know exactly what you mean.

Do you think everyone would go this nuts in society if people disappeared, or are these stories focusing on the ones who are being driven crazy by the mystery? or perhaps even those driven crazy by thinking they have answers?
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Brando on August 24, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
I decided to catch up with the show this week.

I thought the first two episodes were just bad. The show didn't seem to know what it was. Peter Berg's direction of the first two episodes wasn't any good. How many obvious character reveals did he have in just two episodes? We already guessed it was Tom who shot the agent. You don't need to have him step out of the shadows as some big reveal. We already guessed Laurie is Keven's wife when he asked for her. He had one for his own character. He had an insignificant role but there was reveal of his dead body.

I agree with previous post about the world building and character's not talking to one another. There's prayer in schools which is significant and suggest religion has grown in importance. So why is the church empty? Is cause of Matt's obsessions or cause no one goes to church? Since the prayer in school there really hasn't been anything else on religion.

I thought everything got a lot better in episode three. The character episodes are really good.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Nora yet. I think she is by far the best character and best actor on the show. Her storyline is the best. She has an incredible sense of humor but when she tries to make a joke they don't land. She is just so full of pain that people can see it. Nora was right. FUCK his Daughter. Shouldn't we have seen Nora's flashback to Oct 14 before she was healed? I think it would have had a better impact.

I am, however, wondering how much sympathy we're supposed to have for the Remnanteers. I have zero sympathy for Kevin's wife (hate her, actually), and not much for Jill either.

I'm wondering too. I have zero sympathy for the Remnant. I do have a fear that the show expects us to dislike the Remnant right now but to eventually change our opinion. I hope they don't turn the Remnant into the "Others." We already know the government is faking raids in order to kill them. The problem is that they don't seem to be anything other than an annoyance.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 25, 2014, 01:55:35 AM
Best episode yet? Maybe. This definitely happened:

specifically it's the elevation characteristic of each episode is what REALLY draws me in each week. Things just build and build and BOOM.

SPOILERS

I guess I let myself get sucked in, because I didn't have any sense of when the episode was going to end and didn't see all the pieces being set up for that final sequence. But it was glorious. First time I've had any comprehension of Laurie's character. Even understood Jill's depressiveness a bit... and what a perfect tidy metaphor that was — the circuit being broken, the light being extinguished. That could mess you up pretty good.

I think I missed it; did Jill's braces get raptured?

Anyway, for me that sequence was redemption for this:

I was not on board at all with that final woodchopping scene. As the music swelled, I  honestly tried to get into it, but it just didn't take.

It was the obvious climax, but it was powerful. I legitimately got chills.

I actually deeply admire the decision to hold off on this until now. A bold choice that worked.

Oh, that "It's A Girl" balloon ended up taking on some significance now didn't it?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Nora yet. I think she is by far the best character and best actor on the show. Her storyline is the best. She has an incredible sense of humor but when she tries to make a joke they don't land. She is just so full of pain that people can see it.

Agreed. I neglected to comment on her episode, but I agree with the general consensus that it was one of the best. I think Matt is a slightly more compelling character, but yeah they're both up there.

Next episode needs to focus on Holy Wayne, the most neglected and strung-along storyline, which also has the most potential for disappointment, which is not a good combination.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2014, 10:27:41 PM
Deeply annoyed that the season finale is airing next Sunday, the 7th. I guess that means I like this show.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on September 08, 2014, 11:10:03 AM
I cried like a baby during the finale. Yes, it's over-dramatic, the music just doesn't stop, but when the show hits you it hits. Hard.

Like Jeremy said: I guess that means I like this show.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 08, 2014, 05:02:36 PM
I didn't get emotional per se, and I did notice the music loudly swelling and twinkling at me, but it was powerful in a different way. The entire episode was profoundly disorienting in a way that genuinely frightened me. Lindelof produced more horror in this episode than anything I've seen Carlton Cuse do with The Strain. It nailed that foreboding season finale vibe pretty flawlessly. It was deeply weird and wildly unpredictable, yet the plot developments felt exactly right. I'm going to miss that feeling. The show has a voice.

In retrospect, it's insane how closely my experience of The Leftovers Season 1 mirrored my experience of Lost Season 1. Intrigued, then a little bored, not sure if I should stick with it, then certifiably hooked at the end of the season.

I sort of can't wait for Season 2 now. This is completely unfair and perhaps unwise, but I'm hoping for more supernatural elements to surface. There's just been too much accurate prophecy and crazy coincidence. It feels like the lid is about to burst off the jar of Lindelofian mystery. Let it out!
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Brando on September 08, 2014, 07:13:23 PM
It was a really good finale for a really good season. It wasn't surprising how the end of the episode played out. I was expecting the dolls then a backlash against the GR after episode 8. It didn't hurt the finale cause entire season was building towards the confrontation.

I was initially worried about how the show was going to deal with the GR. I don't have those concerns after this episode. They are nothing more than a cult. Their goal of making people remember is bullshit. Trying to get others to remember is nothing but their own distraction so they don't have to remember. I think some of the GR, including Laurie, will be conflicted over what happened and question the point. I think others from the GR, including Meg, will become more radicalized.

I think it was for the best to keep Wayne on the periphery. I'm glad they didn't do a Wayne episode or have any flashbacks/backstory. It just adds to the mystery of his character to have him show up randomly in an abandoned apartment, sleeping on the ground in a basement or on a toilet with a gut wound.

I look forward to the next season with Kevin and his new family. I hope they keep the mystery to the show. I hope they keep it focused on this town. With these type of shows, they seem to feel the need to make things overly complicated in the second season. A need to amplify things by 100 when a little will do.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on September 08, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
nothin' like a li'l orchesteral metallica to get yer drama on
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 11:23:19 AM
https://youtu.be/8bZVUU3zbXk
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 19, 2015, 11:47:58 PM
FYI, The Leftovers is nailing it right now. Two of the three episodes that have aired are totally masterful. So much punch, so well executed. Even skeptics of Season 1 are getting on board. I think Season 2 is at least 50% improved.

There is not a better show airing on television right now. If there is, I'd like to see it. Even Fargo will need to pull off a miracle to keep up.

Lindelof must have the biggest grin right now. He deserves it.

Speaking of which: I've gone from being maddened by the collective psychosis of Lost hate to being amused by it. Not talking about legitimate critiques or personal preferences; I'm talking about the people who literally didn't understand the show or what happened, who complain about not getting enough answers, and who often actually say things like "it was so dumb how they were dead on the island all along." I've come to pity these people and relish their torment as they watch The Leftovers. There are even moments (especially in this season's premier) specifically designed to troll them.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on October 20, 2015, 03:49:11 AM
It's the best show on TV right now. It's a show with a rare thing: episodes—or mini-movies or short-stories episodes. The world is solid. The characters are solid. It's a surprising show. It's really surprising. And not in a Game of Thrones way—a show that's not really surprising, when a character die everything I think is: "Okay. You're dead. It was your turn".

About LOST: I hate the last season, I think I've written about it here before; the whole idea behind the flash-sideways was something interesting, but I thought it didn't work with the show. The Leftovers is the perfect story for Lindelof. Last episode wasn't a flash-back but was built around the way Lost managed to alienate the viewer with a character's background. It felt great. About the mystery: here, the mystery is a mystery, just a mystery. It's as if every character is linked to the universe. As if the universe reacts to them. Their mental state, etc. I love it. Because we all feel that way toward the universe, right? Even if we're not believers. Beyond faith, we often think or talk about signs. Superstition is a way to see more. To see beyond. It's universal, I think.

Off Ramp was all about giving something more to reality. Giving something to people. Something to surrender to. Because reality is unbearable. Infinite Jest also talks about the necessity of a Higher Being in AA. And it doesn't have to be God.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 20, 2015, 10:38:07 AM
Yeah. This show is operating on a whole other level. So glad I stuck with it through Season 1. You're so right about the way it's surprising. I love that feeling when something insane happens that feels completely earned, because it was actually developed. The Leftovers has definitely figured out how to do that.

I appreciate your Lost critique. I don't agree with it — Season 6 is my favorite — but I respect it. Also I think it's interesting how Lindelof is grappling with the concept of mystery now. It's as if he's internalized the Lost backlash and is spiritually unable to believe in answers anymore. Now he just doesn't care, and he's toying with everything. It's so dark and chaotic. "Let the mystery be," as the theme says.

I see this show being described as bleak, but it doesn't feel that way to me. It feels lost, for sure, but vibrant at the same time. Vibrant with the promise of solving the mystery, which will never be solved — but the promise can be enough.

Also, in general, I think people need to see The Killing Season 3 before they can accurately describe any television as "bleak."
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on October 24, 2015, 01:05:46 PM
I'm intrigued. I absolutely hated the first episode of the first season. It was everything I hated about Lost and none of the things I loved.

JB doesn't do this show any favors by saying he liked the last season of Lost.

I think what a lot of Lost defenders don't get about people who were mad at where Lost ended up is that it's not about the answers (or lack thereof), but the fact that the goal of the show became making the viewer say "wow, what the hell is going on?". The first couple seasons were brilliant. I didn't really care as much about the answers because the characters were great and the "mystery" was pretty simple. Then everything became so complicated and the show was so proud of itself for keeping people guessing even though it didn't give a shit about what the answer was, just that people wanted to know.

But this isn't about Lost. How many episodes before season one gets better? I'm interested in Season 2 since it shot here in Austin.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on October 24, 2015, 01:38:32 PM
Season 1 has Episode 3, Episode 6, Episode 9 and 10 who are truly great. Episode 6 being one of my favorite episode of TV. The middle of the season is kind of weak. The last half is solid.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 24, 2015, 11:25:50 PM
Given that Lindelof's history is very much a part of The Leftovers and the general discussion of it, I think Lost tangents are okay. I can move it to the Lost thread if it becomes too much.

I'm intrigued. I absolutely hated the first episode of the first season. It was everything I hated about Lost and none of the things I loved.

JB doesn't do this show any favors by saying he liked the last season of Lost.

I think what a lot of Lost defenders don't get about people who were mad at where Lost ended up is that it's not about the answers (or lack thereof), but the fact that the goal of the show became making the viewer say "wow, what the hell is going on?". The first couple seasons were brilliant. I didn't really care as much about the answers because the characters were great and the "mystery" was pretty simple. Then everything became so complicated and the show was so proud of itself for keeping people guessing even though it didn't give a shit about what the answer was, just that people wanted to know.

My experience of Lost was pretty much the inverse of yours. Season 1 didn't quite grab me until the end. You say that Lost became "what the hell is going on?" But from my perspective, that's how it started, and that's what made me dubious of much of Season 1 and even stretches of Season 2.

In retrospect, I think I was completely sold on Lost with Season 3. For me, Seasons 3 and 4 started a cascade of payoffs that continued through the end. They finally started answering some of the mysteries in concrete ways, while raising new questions that actually built on the existing story.

I acknowledge that things got complicated, but that was the fun — getting "lost" in all the minutia, watching the mythology build and build and finally crystallize. If that's not your thing, Lost was not for you.

Once you get through Season 5 and into Season 6, I feel like the big picture becomes very accessible. Season 6 is elegant and sincere and brings things into clearer focus as it moves along. (I'm not sure what guesswork is even left after Season 6.)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 26, 2015, 09:49:15 PM
SPOILERS

This was a splendid episode. For that Rickroll if nothing else. Sublime.

If it wasn't obvious already, moments like that drive home that the frustration of mystery is the whole point of this show. It delights me that Lindelof is having fun with it.

The Leftovers has had this tension from the beginning. Magical things have definitely happened in this universe, but nothing can be proven, and most don't pan out. Matt's wife talking probably was a dream. The bagel (http://www.watchingtheleftovers.com/blog/2014/7/10/kevin-garvey-disappearing-bagel) from Season 1 was not raptured after all. Kevin's tobacco-chewing friend with the pickup truck turned out to be real.

Does the magic sometimes get so explicit that it can't be explained away? I think so. There have only been 2 or 3 of these at most, but I think one happened in this episode. We assume that Patty is a product of Kevin's mental illness, but is she? The story she told about her ex-husband being shat on is most likely true (i.e. not from Kevin's imagination). Remember that she left a bag of poop on his doorstep in Season 1?
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 02, 2015, 03:40:59 PM
I love the way that the whole story is a puzzle but every episode/piece is independent and satisfying. You're watching something full. That's amazing. It becomes rare with TV...

SPOILER

The whole tension between reality/fantasy of all kind is done very well this season, because so much happened...I can't call them mystery, because even if I can wonder, for example, if Mary really woke, it ultimately doesn't matter. Matt thinks she did. You're watching the characters through their beliefs. The tension also exists between them.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 03, 2015, 03:51:03 PM
SPOILERS

Matt episodes are rough, aren't they? His episode was one of my favorites last season. This one was so punishing, though. Everything, especially the end, was so exactly true to his character.

He is a profoundly frustrating human being. For some reason, I internalized his struggle even more deeply this time. This episode really makes you understand what it feels like to receive that punishment and feel like it's all happening for a greater purpose. Remarkable.

Rickroll moment of the episode: Matt and Mary are washed down the sewer drain as their song is cued: "Just let your love flow like a mountain stream..."

She 100% never woke up, by the way. And I sort of think it does matter. Although, it's true, that's not the most important truth.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 09, 2015, 12:06:01 PM
Haven't seen the latest episode yet, just had to mention this. I think I'm right about this season's spirit of trolling. From a Lindelof interview...

BTW he's discussing the opening pre-history sequence in Episode 1.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/10/leftovers-season-two-opening-scene-damon-lindelof.html

The joke in the writer’s room — well, maybe it wasn’t a joke, since writers use jokes to reflect pain. We all listen to the Grantland podcast with Andy [Greenwald] and Chris [Ryan]. And we love it and think they’re brilliant. But they both fucking hate The Leftovers. So the joke was, “What can we do to completely and totally piss off those guys?” There was a lot of, “Oh, Greenwald’s gonna love this” going around in the writer’s room. I think [the joking] was also a reflection of our fear that we were about to completely and totally shoot ourselves in the foot right out of the gate. But … it felt right. It’s that simple. We weren’t trying to make any bold statement, and perhaps that’s naïve. I mean, we’re not idiots. We knew it was a risk. But at the end of the day, it was something we got really excited about. It was, “When does our story start? This feels right.” We could’ve just as easily started with the girls jumping into the water. That wasn’t as exciting to us as this other idea.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 09, 2015, 02:59:27 PM
The episode was intense...
Seriously, I have no words, I just feel that show so deeply...
And I have read about it two or three times after having thought about it: The Master was an inspiration for THE scene of the episode.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 10, 2015, 12:23:50 AM
Yeah, I don't really have any words either. It's just difficult to express why The Leftovers is so good. This wasn't markedly better than the other episodes. It's just that the consistency week after week is building momentum and a critical mass that makes the whole all the more powerful.

Random note, I wonder if this will ever come back:

Title of this episode was "B.J. And The A.C."

Baby Jesus and the Antichrist, right? Christine's baby being the Antichrist.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 10, 2015, 10:37:26 AM
Two beautiful shots from Lens.

(https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12191673_10207673130328973_6683660846077483769_n.jpg?oh=5fe98b3fcc9a8431d11784246d5f6c10&oe=56F609FA)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTZlKjaW4AAMQNx.png:large)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 16, 2015, 03:07:27 PM
The show feels like a meta narrative about LOST. Anyway, I liked this episode, a lot, even if it's not perfect. It shows that The Leftovers is going in many different directions. But I hope that it will stay coherent as an ambiguous whole.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 16, 2015, 10:14:57 PM
SPOILERS

The more I think about this episode, and the ending, the more excited I am. Think about how much setup has gone into this moment. Obviously Virgil plans to be Kevin's guide; he said as much, and "Virgil" was the guide in Dante's Inferno. Michael's part in this is equally fascinating. This really recaptured some of the best Lost cliffhangers for me. I was in a prolonged state of shock for the last minute. Amazing stuff.

I wasn't completely sold on Laurie's conversation with Kevin. Too much exposition, and too much of the writer's voice present. But the rest more than made up for it.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 23, 2015, 01:27:02 AM
I was so delighted throughout this episode that I was laughing with glee. One of the best hours of television I've seen. We don't even deserve this show.

SPOILERS

The obvious echoes of Mulholland Drive did nothing but fill me with joy. Perhaps because it was clearly Lynch via Lindelof; his voice is so strong here.

The fire alarm and the communication with his dad was probably my favorite part. The metaphysics of that were so wonderfully Lost-esque.

I'll probably have more thoughts later, but I think the episode stands on its own just fine.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 23, 2015, 01:49:19 PM
SPOILERS

From the LA Times review, entitled "Don't drink the water":

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-the-leftovers-recap-international-assassin-20151122-story.html

In one of the most moving passages in Virgil’s “Aenid,” protagonist Aeneas finds his father in the underworld and asks him why so many souls were gathered around a distant river. His father details for him the process that souls must undergo upon reaching the underworld, how the act of living gets ingrained in their skin and time must be spent cleansing themselves of their former lives.

After enough time is spent, like buffalo bones bleached in the sun, the souls move forward in their journey, toward the river of Lethe, the river of forgetfulness, where they drink the water and forget, truly forget the people they were before...

----------------

So I think Virgil is moving forward in his journey (forgetting who he was before, and clearly not coming back), while Kevin still fully remembers.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 23, 2015, 03:54:53 PM
Clumsy. And breathtaking. This season is a unique journey. There were echoes from Join The Club, one of the best Sopranos episode, here.

SPOILERS

I'm kind of sad by the fact that it brings, as you said, Lost metaphysics in the world of The Leftovers, I loved how it managed to stay ambiguous about the supernatural. The execution is so great, though, that I can't dislike it; I just wish that Kevin didn't die, he didn't need to be absolutely dead to live something like that.

Anyway, the show is probably ending with Season 2, so I don't care that much. I'm just excited.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 23, 2015, 04:06:15 PM
SPOILERS

I'm disappointed that you don't love it as much as I do, but I understand. I've been thinking about this episode literally all day; that doesn't often happen with a TV show.

I don't think this did necessarily bring Lost metaphysics into "the world of" The Leftovers. It brought them into Kevin's experience, which could be anything. As you say, it's ambiguous about the supernatural. Just last week the show actually reached out and told us that Patti isn't real.

One surely must be comfortable with some amount of the supernatural, though. After all, departures happen in this universe. Beyond that, it's frustratingly grounded and provides no answers. These strange things happen all the time (© 1999 PTA), and we don't always get explanations.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 23, 2015, 04:30:03 PM
SPOILERS


But I loved it! It's just that I wish that Kevin didn't die—and, even if we don't really know that he did, it's hard to believe that he didn't. But it doesn't change the fact that I loved how this episode worked. The whole sequence in the well was very moving.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 30, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
SPOILERS

That's how it's done. Check out this Lindelof interview (http://variety.com/2015/tv/features/leftovers-evie-alive-episode-209-damon-lindelof-1201649433/) if you want to know in great detail the thinking that went behind this turn of events.

Meg was a problematic character for me in Season 1, and I think some of those residual feelings were (ahem) left over for me in this episode. And there were some slow/sleepy parts. But I think this is about as good of a Meg episode as they could do. My favorite scene, in fact, might be her meeting with Matt. Liv Tyler really nailed her performance and was totally compelling. I've never liked her as an actress, so that's saying something.

So what do we think Meg is planning? Were the nooses on the bridge (in "International Assassin") foreshadowing? Has she actually acquired plastic explosives, or was that entirely a red herring? Does she plan to open the gates of Jarden or just destroy the dream?

Her stated plan is to make the people of Jarden experience loss, but hasn't the disappearance already done that? Revealing that it wasn't the universe, but that it was humans — wouldn't that just prove what everyone already knows (that the GR is loathsome) and restore people's faith in Jarden's anti-departing powers?

Will Matt act as her adversary? It would be amazing if he is finally victorious.

This better be good...
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on November 30, 2015, 03:31:08 PM
SPOILERS

The scene between Evie and Meg at the beginning was a mistake. I knew the twist. And what a good twist it is! You can feel the shadow of Meg on the whole season. It was obvious and I never thought about it. The girls were very weird in the first episode...

The bus full of children. Frightening...

The episode, as a whole, doesn't entirely work, Meg isn't as strong as other characters and I was sad to know that we won't have the other characters for more episodes...

Mostly, it was a way to prepare the finale.

The series finale, probably...
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 30, 2015, 03:58:09 PM
The series finale, probably...

I definitely hope not. The ratings have been poor, but it's an HBO show. And critics are gushing over it. Tom Perrotta says HBO execs have been on vacation and they haven't had "the conversation" yet. Production wrapped on the season finale not too long ago.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on December 02, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
Amen.

Quote
One thing I’ve really enjoyed about this season is that each episode feels like a different episode of TV. It doesn’t seem like 10 episodes of the same thing.

I’ll tell you, I’m watching “Jessica Jones” right now and loving it. I feel like everybody’s at different places in that book, so to speak. But more importantly, what you just said is the biggest issue, which is the episodes are indistinct. I’ve been watching season one of “The Knick” too, and there’s that episode “Get the Rope” — that amazing episode with the race riots. When that episode ended I was like, “I need to stop and take a couple of days off before I watch the next one.” That was an episode. From start to finish, that was an episode of TV.

You know, we call these things episodes for a reason. And not just because of structure. When someone has a mental-illness incident, we call it “an episode.” That’s the word that we use for those. The idea is that you can give each episode its own internal flavor and character. The way that we’ve obviously chosen to do that is by individuating the characters.

This is something that Noah Hawley does incredibly well [on “Fargo”], and “Walking Dead” has done it [at times] — the single character’s [point of view episode]. “Game of Thrones” is probably my favorite show on the air right now, but just give me a damn Tyrion episode. Give me just one that’s wall-to-wall Tyrion. The emotional impact that I would get when that episode ended [would be different], as opposed to [cutting to] “Meanwhile, over in Meereen.” I think it’s amazing what they do, but when [George R. R. Martin] wrote those books, each chapter is just called “Tyrion” or “Arya,” etc.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/features/leftovers-season-2-finale-damon-lindelof-cavewoman-scene-1201649945/

Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 03, 2015, 10:20:59 AM
Excellent Fresh Air interview with Lindelof and Perrotta:

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/02/458143133/from-lost-to-leftovers-show-creators-embrace-ambiguity-and-the-unknown


She also spoke with Justin Theroux in October:

http://www.npr.org/2015/10/14/448562489/as-one-of-the-leftovers-actor-justin-theroux-explores-loss-and-spirituality
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 07, 2015, 12:21:59 AM
Good God they nailed it. This finale had everything. I can't think of one thing it did wrong, or one thing that wasn't thoroughly and emphatically true to The Leftovers. Can't believe they pulled this off, really. Undoubtedly one of the very best seasons of TV I've seen.

I was almost too excited that I was watching the finale to fully absorb everything. Might have more thoughts later.

SPOILERS

This episode really pushed up against that supernatural boundary, didn't it? Kevin resurrecting again, surviving impossibly, which the show acknowledges — then lurching home like Jesus as a cross is carried into Jarden. Apparently John touching his wound incredulously is a reference to the biblical story pictured in The Incredulity of Saint Thomas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredulity_of_Saint_Thomas_(Caravaggio)), attached below. (Learned this from an AV Club comment, but don't go there, their review on this ep is garbage.) Saint Thomas doubted the resurrection of Jesus's body (where "doubting Thomas" comes from), until Thomas was able to touch the wound for himself and witness the resurrection.

But there's more. Kevin returns home, the earth quakes, and it's as if he's willed that final scene into existence. The ground shook so violently I half expected the house to be rubble, but everyone was unharmed. Like he shifted the fabric of the universe to make things right. "Because I deserve it."

And then the draining of the springs, which happened just as dramatically as we imagined, but with a flourish — the water didn't just drain in a spiral or something, it actually parted... and the scene ended there.

Jarden itself seems to resemble the hellscape foreshadowed in Kevin's dream, complete with random fires. We know, of course, that police and/or national guard will be arriving soon to clear out the juggalos from the streets and the Guilty Remnant from the government buildings, certainly. But it doesn't feel that way, does it? This change feels apocalyptic and permanent. The fear and confusion in John's eyes is proof — Meg has won, for now. Against all reason, it feels like the damage is everlasting.

A lot to unpack. This one deserves a rewatch or two.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 08, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
Fantastic conversation (http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/when-should-tv-shows-stop-while-theyre-ahead.html) about Season 2 on The Vulture TV Podcast, which has been covering The Leftovers a lot. A must-listen for any fan.

Also, critics have been going bananas. Sample headline: The Leftovers Season Two didn't just kick ass, it transcended TV (http://decider.com/2015/12/08/the-leftovers-season-2-transcended-tv/).

Also, this:


‘The Leftovers’ Fans Campaign for Season 3 in Costume Outside HBO Offices

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/leftovers-season-3-fans-campaign-costume-hbo-1201655760/

The Guilty Remnant, the haunting cult at the center of HBO’s “The Leftovers,” made a pre-apocalyptic appearance in New York City on Monday, when a group of devoted fans assembled in costume outside the network’s headquarters to petition for a third season of the premium cable drama.

Remaining true-to-character in their demonstration, the peaceful protesters donned all-white garments, silently smoked cigarettes and presented small, makeshift picket signs that simply read “renew” in scribbled sharpie.

HBO has yet to make a decision on the fate of the critically acclaimed drama, which stars Justin Theroux and Liv Tyler, but the creative team behind the show aren’t afraid to make their voices heard as they stump for a renewal.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on December 10, 2015, 03:01:15 PM
Renewed, bitch!
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 10, 2015, 04:42:32 PM
Yes!!!! :multi:

I kind of had a feeling it would be, after seeing that the penultimate episode had higher ratings, and the finale had even higher ratings. In one interview, Lindelof mentioned the finale's ratings as a key criterion for renewal.

The whole thing was pretty unfair to begin with. This season aired in the fall and on Sunday night, which is a brutal combination for a show that by its nature really needs to do some persuading.

More details:


HBO is renewing The Leftovers for a third and final season

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/10/9888262/hbo-the-leftovers-renewed-third-final-season

HBO has announced that Damon Lindelof's surreal drama The Leftovers has been renewed for a third and final season. The show, which is based on Tom Perrotta's novel of the same name, finished its critically-lauded second season on December 6th. The whole season took place in a Texas town untouched by the Rapture, the "sudden departure" that rocked the show's world, and the drastic change in scenery — the first season took place in New York — paid palpable dividends in terms of audience response.

It wasn't clear after the second season's finale whether or not Lindelof and his creative team would be able to continue with the show. "The way we built the second season was Tom [Perrotta] and myself went into a room with a bunch of incredibly talented writers and we started to bounce ideas off the wall and we started to get excited about some of them," said Lindelof in a lengthy interview with The Hollywood Reporter. "I want to do the same thing again, but that hasn't happened yet — it can't happen until HBO says we want more... If we get to do more, I'm going to try not to f— it up."

In an interview with Hitfix's Alan Sepinwall, Lindelof confirmed that he wanted to end the show after three seasons. "It's a gut feeling," said Lindelof. "I feel like there's more story, but not MUCH more. And I don't want to drag it out unnecessarily."

"It is with great enthusiasm that we welcome back Damon Lindelof, Tom Perrotta, and the extraordinary talent behind The Leftovers for its third and final season," said HBO programming president Michael Lombardo in a statement. "We admire and fully support Damon's artistic vision and respect his decision to bring the show to its conclusion next season."

"We are all tremendously grateful that HBO is giving us an opportunity to conclude the show on our own terms," said Lindelof in the same statement. "We are blessed by the unwavering support of our fans and the incredibly powerful voice of the critical community. We feel absolutely privileged to heat up one last helping of leftovers."
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on December 12, 2015, 01:46:19 PM
Up to season one, episode six right now, which is making me realize the main problem with the earlier episodes was that there wasn't nearly enough Carrie Coon. God damn she's the best.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on December 18, 2015, 05:09:51 AM
All caught up. I'm not quite to the point of coronating it yet, but there's no question that's some bold, inventive, powerful TV (sorry, not TV, HBO). You get the sense Lindelof is feeling liberated by not having the expectation of having to explain all the mysteries, and it makes everything feel unexpected.

I think the main thing holding back my exaltation is that the acting can be wildly inconsistent. Carrie Coon is on another level, looking down at the rest of the world from the peak of the acting mountaintop (holy shit, the scene after the earthquake and she realizes Kevin is gone, so she calls 911 to ask if it happened again. Holy shit). Justin Theroux is pretty great, Margaret Qualley is pretty great more often than not. Ann Dowd is awesome, because Ann Dowd is always awesome. Amy Brenneman and Liv Tyler are both actors who have always grated on me, and while they're better in this than in most things, I still have the same problems I've always had with them. Kevin Carroll played his character weirdly cartoonish, especially early in the season. And Chris Eccleston, while I think the performance itself is good, there's something weird that happens when he's doing the American accent; it's hard to describe, kind of like he's doing a ventriloquist act, but with his own face instead of a dummy.

But anyway, it was good! I didn't regret binge-watching it. I'll happily watch season three.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 18, 2015, 10:42:27 AM
Good to hear! Liv Tyler can be problematic for me, and she certainly was in parts of Season 1. Interesting that Amy Brenneman is problematic for you... she completely worked for me. I hated Laurie so much in Season 1, but I was supposed to, and that only helped me empathize with Jill in Season 2... and yet still I really liked Laurie and was rooting for her in Season 2.

Do you have any thoughts about Season 1 vs. Season 2? Is the improvement as dramatic as I perceived it, or do you think there's some revisionism in my experience? Maybe most of it was just quality of life improvements — Jill's skeevy friend being gone, Jill herself being 3x more likable, Laurie being redeemed, less guilty remnant.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on December 18, 2015, 12:22:48 PM
I actually spent the bulk of season two feeling like I preferred the first season, but then season two really put it together in the last couple episodes. I also like that Damon Lindelof's offbeat sense of humor, which was frequently evident on Lost, got pulled out of his back pocket much more frequently in the second season.

I'm not actually sure there's anything wrong with Amy Brenneman's performance on this show; I think I was probably just projecting negative reactions I've had about her as an actor from other performances. Liv Tyler is still bad, but there are definitely moments in this series that use her flat vocal affect to really good effect.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 10, 2016, 08:38:02 PM
Bluray of Season 2 releases Feb 9.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 24, 2017, 11:44:10 PM
YES.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw4HouB5PGk
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 16, 2017, 06:02:39 PM
Excellent trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPYqAF3lpA


This one is more spoilery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9w0sz5y83k
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on March 16, 2017, 07:02:09 PM
I'm not watching the trailer. I'll watch the first two episodes in a movie theater! I'm excited! If I remember correctly, this season is only eight episodes long, unfortunately...
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 13, 2017, 04:46:21 PM
I saw two episodes. Is it weird to say that watching The Leftovers is a joyful experience for me? (When it's not crushing my soul.) I think this season will bring its lot of theories.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 16, 2017, 07:32:49 PM
I didn't ask any questions. He signed my Blu-Ray of season 2 of The Leftovers at the end but a big crowd came at him, I felt embarrassed to be there too, I almost left. I just said that I'll never forget season 2 of The Leftovers.

But people who liked the end of LOST said it to him, so your message was sent, JB!

Even if I have to wait two weeks to know what the fuck happens next, I'm excited to watch the premiere again! IT'S BACK ON THE AIR!
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2017, 11:56:46 PM
Yes! This was a perfect premiere, just full of... everything. I'm so satisfied already. And yet I wanted to rewatch it immediately.

Seriously though, what did this episode not have?

SPOILERS

We know, of course, that police and/or national guard will be arriving soon to clear out the juggalos from the streets and the Guilty Remnant from the government buildings, certainly.

Boy did they. After tormenting us with the Guilty Remnant for so long, Lindelof literally blew them up. It was a fun bit of lampshading that also feels completely in-universe — we've seen how the government deals with cults when they get out of hand. I also love that they just left the crater there — as a warning. Ugh, so much subtext to be discovered here.

It was an extreme delight to see these characters who've suffered so much have a little bit of happiness. Another development that is satisfying because of how earned it is. Their happiness also works because we know we must be at the tail end of it. All the ominous notes were struck so perfectly.

That look on Matt's face when Kevin is baptized. He's like "oh God, I could not have written this better."

And that end. I don't even.

But people who liked the end of LOST said it to him, so your message was sent, JB!

Excellent!
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 17, 2017, 12:38:46 AM
Yep
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 17, 2017, 10:58:59 AM
SPOILERS


After all the talk about Australia, I was expecting some immediate radical change, but it was pleasant to see how Miracle came together after the chaos of last year. It did blow up. Of course, you can sense that something is wrong beneath the surface...

About that ending: they wouldn't make that bold a choice if they hadn't the whole story so I'm confident (and a little bit scared because they only have eight episodes and it gets more confusing.)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 17, 2017, 11:02:11 AM
SPOILERS


After all the talk about Australia, I was expecting some immediate radical change, but it was pleasant to see how Miracle came together after the chaos of last year. It did blow up. Of course, you can sense that something is wrong beneath the surface...

About that ending: they wouldn't make that bold a choice if they hadn't the whole story so I'm confident (and a little bit scared because they only have eight episodes and it gets more confusing.)

MORE SPOILERS!

I'm doing this without seeing the second episode, but it feels like that last bit could be from a divergent timeline. Perhaps the departure created it, or perhaps the coming event does.

Kevin told Tom that story from International Assassin as if were real. Maybe in a way it was. Maybe Kevin has an actual special connection to other dimensions. I think he has way more awareness of his own supernatural qualities than he lets on. Two more hints: When he said he "just knew" that the water was safe, and the fact that he might be "killing" himself with that plastic bag to travel to another world.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 18, 2017, 09:21:33 AM
You can watch the masterclass here if you want (the part where he tells the origin of LOST is interesting, television is a crazy world): http://series-mania.fr/en/video/rencontre-damon-lindelof/


Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on April 20, 2017, 11:40:03 AM
That opening was cool.
I was surprised to see this woman I know, Christina in the episode screaming at Kevin about the drone strike.
The rest of the episode felt like an in-betweener. I know that it's probably just catching us up and trying to get us used to things being "okay" before they make everything get shitty again, but it wasn't grabbing me in any way.

Still, as angry as I get about this series, I continue to watch it and will be in until the end.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 24, 2017, 05:35:03 PM
Beautiful episode. Re-watched it today, then watched some scenes again. Cried and cried and cried. Nora Durst: what a character. Carrie Coon: what an actress. That trampoline scene on a big screen was amazing...

SPOILERS
The theory part again...so...the scene in Australia isn't in the future. The seventh anniversary of October 14th is coming. The women have read The Book of Kevin. How? They come from the future? Kevin who is not our Kevin is leaving with Kevin's father (our Kevin)? What about Nora at the end of episode 1?

Six episodes left.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 24, 2017, 09:56:54 PM
SPOILERS

The episode at first really threw me off. There was not a discernible forward-moving plot trajectory, and I was getting antsy because we're approaching the end. Nora's journey seemed like a side quest. And the story felt utterly conventional.

Then, at 22 minutes, when Mark Linn-Baker begins his pitch — "okay, there are a couple types of radiation" — I was fully on board. I expect my expectations to be upended, and that was certainly happening. I then had absolutely no idea what was going to happen from one minute to the next.

I am very strongly reminded of Lost episode 601 ("LAX"), which mercilessly trolls the audience in such a beautiful way — sly but also heartfelt.

The scene were Nora walks in on Kevin (46:40) is pure magic. One of the best scenes of the whole series. Carrie Coon's performance there is truly next-level. I didn't even realize I was crying until that scene was over because I was so utterly captured.

Australian Kevin is... interesting. When he hit the kangaroo, I felt strong parallels with Kevin and the dogs in season 1 ("they're not our roos anymore") and Laurie and the Guilty Remnant in season 2.

They did go a bit over the top with his characterization, though. We're supposed to hate him enough that we don't feel too bad when he dies. I would have been okay with most of that, but I think it crosses a line when he throws the keys. Really puts a button on it. A strange bit of lazy writing that felt out of place in this show.

Thankfully I loved what came next with the four horsewomen of the apocalypse. To your question, Drenk, this is my guess: Kevin's dad has been in communication with Kevin's apostles, and I'm sure they've shared an electronic version of the book. As Mark Linn-Baker told us, everything important is out there in the cloud.

I'm thinking about this mobile radiation unit that Nora is going to "investigate" in Australia, and I can't help but think of the last few episodes of Lost Season 6. There are actually two possible reference points: the electromagnetic energy in "the heart of the island" or the machine that Widmore uses on Desmond, blasting him with said energy. In both cases, it's an experience that no normal human being can possibly survive, but Desmond does, because of his unique properties. What if this radiation unit leads to a similar scenario? Kevin, after all, has some unique properties of his own.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 26, 2017, 11:46:34 AM
On Rotten Tomatoes I could only find one negative review of this season. It's from MTV. Here's the subhead:

"IN ITS FINAL SEASON, THE CHARACTERS ARE YET AGAIN MIRED IN THEIR DEPRESSIONS, DELUSIONS, AND SELF-MUTILATIONS. AND IT’S LIKE, JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY."

LOL. If you have any interest in reading the full review, beware that it appears to have spoilers for upcoming episodes...

http://www.mtv.com/news/3003475/the-leftovers-season-3-its-the-end-of-the-world-and-were-not-allowed-to-forget-it/
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 26, 2017, 11:55:03 AM
Heard an interesting theory from this podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/the-leftovers/)...

SPECULATION SPOILERS

Here's their prediction. Nora goes into this radiation device and gets blasted — but, being a lens (http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/leftovers-just-wont-stop-kicking-rest-televisions--228125), she deflects the energy and kills everyone in the room.

My addition: maybe this destruction goes beyond "the room" and is even apocalyptic in scope. This would go with her being called a demon in Season 2. Of course, if such a thing happens, it could be attributed to a flaw in the radiation machine... a horrible accident. Admittedly this is all a bit crazy, but I won't rule anything out.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 26, 2017, 12:54:44 PM
SPOILERS

I don't like this theory because it takes many theories within the shows to make one coherent system. What I like is the fact that they're separated from one another. I think something crazy will happen, but something new.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: modage on April 27, 2017, 09:41:33 AM
I'm behind but just barely. I watched Season 1 when it was on and was rooting for Lindelof but found it kind of a slog to get through. I mostly hated the characters (save Nora and Jill) and thought it had the same kind of 'trying-too-hard' thing that Breaking Bad S1 had where something was not quite gelling naturally yet between the writing/performances/production. So when Season 2 came on I skipped out on it, even as the glowing reviews pilled up, I still thought 'I'm not sure I have any interest in going back into that world or how much they can even salvage that I would be interested in, quasi-reboot or no.' But I was wrong.

I finally watched Season 2 this week and just fucking loved it. This is the show I wanted Lindelof to make post-LOST but felt like he was afraid to make in Season 1. Like he was trying to run from some of his storytelling instincts for fear of finding himself in another LOST-like situation, but in 2 he lightened up a bit, let some of the weirdness in and figured out just how to play each instrument in the cast just right. Characters I hated were minimized or reconfigured, others like Kevin who were kind of a blank to me in Season 1 were filled out here. I loved the song choices to end the episodes, some of the dark irony of I Am A Rock, the naked emotionalism of the karaoke moment, the twist with the girls, how they brought the Guilty Remnant back into the story, everything. I'm not at all a religious person but the way the show handles questions of faith and how these things get started, how prophets and false ones are made, if there is a God at all, is fascinating and unlike S1 which felt heavyhanded and just, heavy at times, it's now playful but still totally committed.

If I had watched it last year it would've probably been my favorite show of that year. Super excited to join in on Season 3.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 27, 2017, 11:43:02 AM
Excellent! I'm happy to report that Season 3 feels pretty much just like Season 2.

I mostly agree about Season 1. Jill's skeezy friend was the worst. The Guilty Remnant were absolutely maddening... Obviously they were supposed to be, and the magnitude of their annoyingness is necessary to set up the season finale and beyond. But the actual viewing experience of Season 1 is somewhat sacrificed for that purpose. When I recommend this show to people, I still have to warn them about Season 1. "Some characters are really annoying, but they're supposed to be, trust me."
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Fernando on April 28, 2017, 11:47:14 AM
Finally caught up, like you guys S1 was good but not quite great and then S2 came and was/is one of the best seasons ever, and S3 looks to be heading in the same direction.

S3. The final scene of episode one is so great, I love that I have no clue where this is going and while many things don't make sense I can't wait to see where it ends.

Carrie Coon is so great (she looks like a young Annette Bening), there's a good article at Vulture about her, here's a sample of it:

There's an image in Sonali Triangle's memoir, Wave, that's stuck in Carrie Coon's brain. The author returns to her home in London for the first time after a tsunami swept away her entire family — her husband, her two sons, and her parents — while they were vacationing on a beach in Sri Lanka. She's rummaging through a pile of papers on her husband's desk when she realizes her home is like a time capsule, frozen in the moment before tragedy. “I thumbed through Steve's checkbook, which was in the drawer. He'd written three checks on our last day in London, for the gardener and the milkman and for the boys’ school dinners,” Deraniyagala writes. “Those two words, school dinners, were all it took. I shattered.”

Carrie Coon carried the book around with her during the three years she spent on the set of The Leftovers. “That book became my Nora Bible,” Coon says. “I always had it available for the really challenging moments.”


http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/carrie-coon-profile.html


guys, what's the episode where Laurie finally talks and yells to Kevin Jill's name because she's in the burning house? Love that scene.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on April 28, 2017, 12:25:38 PM
It's in the last episode of the first season.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 07, 2017, 11:13:30 PM
I really liked last week's episode, but this one was absolutely sublime. I was getting chills all the way through. This felt like one of the best episodes of Season 2 — it was totally in that mode again.

SPOILERS

The depth of Nora and Kevin's dysfunction is actually clear throughout the episode. I'm scrolling back to random scenes, and you can see it on their faces the whole time.

Their fight in the hotel room strongly reminded me of Jack and Kate's fight in Lost 410: "Something Nice Back Home." It takes place in the flash-forward. Jack, drunk and losing his temper, delivers a similar gut-punch line that is so intimately hurtful that it ends the fight. It's also about motherhood.

(This episode also feels quite Losty because everyone has a mission.)

Just so we're clear: Self-immolating guy in the last episode answered no and got rejected. Nora answered yes and got rejected. Theories abound...

My guess is that the test is simply rigged. (Occam's Razor, right?) But if it's legit, maybe it's all about your reasoning, not the answer itself. Nora's reasoning lacked compassion: "what's one more?"
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 08, 2017, 09:12:44 AM
SPOILERS


Theories abound and I think the storyline of the device ends there. It might be a scam (but a weird one since they don't take any money) or it is real. Who knows.

I would have nod, by the way.

Their dysfunction is clear since a long time, they were pretending to tell each other everything but they never really talked, they were supportive of each other in the worst way possible. I love how they seem to be in a different space even when they are together at the beginning of the episode. The sense of emergency throughout was well done.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on May 12, 2017, 12:38:30 PM
This episode and the last episode both leaned hard into what I love and what I hate about this show.

The execution is great! These are well-directed episodes with flare. They capture the immediate feelings very well and in interesting ways.

The big-picture is bullshit. Going back and forth between where Kevin stands with everything and whether or not he's crazy is fucking boring.
I get sucked into an episode for the first half and then pissed off during the second when it is revealed that once again, they don't give a fuck about where things go as long as you are curious. It's infuriating and makes the characters very shallow in the long-run because they're just delivering samples of mystery and emotion that don't fit into an overall real character.

Nora is the only major character I think is well written.

It would take some majorly clever writing to bring everything together and make this story worth having watched.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2017, 12:50:36 PM
I mean, I think the show is largely about uncertainty. For example, the writers apparently went to great lengths to make sure the things that happened late last season (Kevin being buried, and then surviving that gunshot) were scientifically possible. You're supposed to constantly wonder whether these are magical/fated things or just coincidences. The joy and pain of that tension is part of the pleasure of The Leftovers. You'd have to be on board with that.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Tictacbk on May 12, 2017, 01:55:31 PM
Yeah, I think this story is already worth having watched. It's a daring, fun, devastating, other adjectives, show no matter how cleverly the ending is wrapped up. You gotta just Let The Mystery Be.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 12, 2017, 02:18:59 PM
Who is supersitious here? I mean, I often know that the twisted logics I create are just that, twisted logics, but I think we're built to believe in things we can't grasp or prove even if we're not religious or very aware of science. This is what the show is about. They don't really let the mystery be, do they? They can't. Every character creates his own world around the mystery. In our lives, we don't even need a Departure to go almost as far as them...
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on May 12, 2017, 05:23:29 PM
You gotta just Let The Mystery Be.

And that's the problem (for me). The show is nothing but empty mystery. Its biggest problem is what it thinks is its biggest strength and the real problem with Lindelof.

"The show is about uncertainty" sounds like a cop-out to me, but also, I get why people like this show. There's definitely talent being poured into it and I respect that. It just makes me upset because it's so close to great. It's rare I don't enjoy at least PART of each episode.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2017, 05:29:37 PM
I could rephrase that: The Leftovers is about existential confusion and trying to find meaning to resolve it. Do we find meaning in random events and try to make a story in our minds, or do we have an actual destiny that can be discovered? The show itself has been fiercely agnostic on that question. It may choose one side in the end, or it may not.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on May 12, 2017, 09:25:28 PM
Just so we're clear: Self-immolating guy in the last episode answered no and got rejected. Nora answered yes and got rejected. Theories abound...

My guess is that the test is simply rigged. (Occam's Razor, right?) But if it's legit, maybe it's all about your reasoning, not the answer itself. Nora's reasoning lacked compassion: "what's one more?"

My theory is that no matter what the answer to the question, it results in rejection. It's another part of their evaluation process, just like the lady with the baby at the bus stop. They're looking for people who truly want it badly enough to take the risk, and when they tell a person no, they find out for sure how badly that person wants it. And holy shit, looks like Nora wants it very very badly.

p.s. The only way this show could be better at this point is if Carrie Coon played every role.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2017, 11:43:23 PM
I love that theory.  :yabbse-thumbup:
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 15, 2017, 12:20:53 AM
SPOILERS:

I thought this episode was not as well directed as previous episodes, I don't know if you've felt that way. Anyway: even if it was often not subtle at all I thought it was very effective because it made you feel ill.

Matt lost his faith and is relieved. He is dying. But he is relieved. His faith has always been, yes, selfish...He was always hurting people. Even in this episode he doesn't care about John...


During the credits, the french dude (who sounds more like a canadian trying to speak like a frenchman in a weird translated french) talks about destroying a demon living in volcano, if I understand correctly. "Thanks for the technology", he says.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 15, 2017, 01:00:12 AM
Totally agreed. Something didn't quite click in the production of this episode. But it still worked.

I was going to ask about the French intro. That's interesting.

David Burton has actually been a part of the show for a while. I knew I recognized him from somewhere in the show, then I read this comment:

Quote
He's mentioned and has to do with all three seasons. In season one they talk about a guy killed in a rock climbing accident in Australia, guides kevin through the hotel twice, stands on bridge before kevin pushes girl in well, and the latest mention is when the man in the tower died there was an envelope addressed to a David Burton.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Fuzzy Dunlop on May 15, 2017, 01:51:08 PM
Apparently this week's episode was inspired by Matt Zoller Seitz, according to this Vulture piece, "Why Sunday Night’s Episode of The Leftovers Was Inspired by Matt Zoller Seitz", by Matt Zoller Seitz.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/leftovers-episode-inspired-by-matt-zoller-seitz.html (http://www.vulture.com/2017/05/leftovers-episode-inspired-by-matt-zoller-seitz.html)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 15, 2017, 09:59:42 PM
Two of my favorite people having a deep conversation... great stuff. Thank you for that.

I love how Damon has no false modesty.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 22, 2017, 01:20:03 AM
I did not love this episode. It was... difficult... so that's part of it. But I also think it could have lost 10-15 minutes of recapping.

SPOILERS

We are shown a flashback of the ultrasound, and then Laurie has to fully describe it too? I'm sorry, but how could any Leftovers viewer have possibly forgotten that scene? And the pills. Kevin Sr. reminds us that the dog's pills were strong and knocked him out, then we see Laurie staring at the empty pill bottle, then Laurie exchanges a look with the dog (which I liked), then Laurie tells the dog what she did (which infuriated me... we are not dumb viewers, so why put a button on it?), and then finally Laurie explains what she did to Kevin. That is FIVE explanations for this one event.

Perhaps more importantly, there was a lot of emotional exposition that I wish had remained subtext. Too many one-on-one conversations just draining that subtext away, especially the one between Laurie and John. (Laurie's talk with Kevin was pretty good, though, mostly.)

And in general, this one needed a heavier Lindelof rewrite. Not really up to par. Felt much more like Season 1 than 2 or 3.

There were things I loved about the episode. But I suppose my expectations are sky high right now.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 22, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
SPOILERS

It was maybe my favorite episode of the Leftovers.

I absolutely don't agree with you, but I also don't feel able to say why it resonated so much with me. I don't want to.

I don't understand the criticism about the episode explaining itself too much? What you mentioned is never there to explain the scene. A part that infuriated you (the dog) made me laugh. Why would I want to feel clever because I understood—of course I understood—and let a humane moment like her comment to the dog go? And of course that Laurie is gonna say to Kevin why everyone is knocked out, I don't see how you can take it as the show explaining again what happened. Seriously. That scene is so beautiful, I didn't even notice that. Come on. There was a whole scene last week explaining the whole episode with God talking to Matt. That's what I find too on the nose.

For the one and one conversations: Laurie is everyone's therapist, almost. But it is not draining any subtext. The episode is about her. She never talks about her. And yet the events around her transform something inside her.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 22, 2017, 01:41:43 PM
SPOILERS

I want to love this episode, so I will revisit it again and give it another chance. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood.

To be clear, I loved when Laurie looked at the dog, because that said everything. Then she had to actually speak to the dog to say what we had definitely just figured out. It felt like she was saying that just in case I had not made that connection. It was dumb and redundant. She was speaking to the audience, not to the dog.

I'm sure Season 1 is full of those moments, though... Maybe I'm unreasonably expecting perfection right now.

I think Laurie's chat with John is really problematic. He was saying things that the show had so beautifully communicated before. He even explained why they were shredding the money — to Laurie no less! Are we really meant to believe she didn't know why he was shredding the money? Are we meant to buy that they've never talked about this before? That was obviously just for the audience (not an actual conversation between two people). Just... too much clarity. Too many cheap words. I don't like that in my Lindelof.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on May 22, 2017, 02:50:31 PM
This was definitely my favorite episode of the season so far, but I agree with most of its faults.

SPOILERS

- Agree about the ultrasound, but we only needed to cut out the previously on.
- Agree about her comment to the dog, but we did need Kevin Sr. to explain the pill thing to Laurie so she would know about the pills. She tells Kevin about the pills again so that we could get that dry "I drugged them" delivery.
- Agree with the Money Shredding convo
- The whole "drugging the family so they could have a private talk" was dumb. This is my problem with this show. The only real justification for this is to make it seem like she wants to stop Kevin from going through with it and then *SHOCK* reveal that she isn't. "I didn't think they'd let me talk to you" is weak AF.


Oh, and can someone who was paying a little more attention tell me why Nora wouldn't give Laurie's Zippo back?
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 22, 2017, 03:28:28 PM
SPOILERS


She wanted a peaceful last moment with her ex-husband. Drugging everyone so they wouldn't jump on him (they do think he is the Messiah, after all) doesn't seem weak to me. Plus: she's about to kill herself. It's a last thrill. She enjoys it. It's fun for her.

Nora is bitter and angry and acting like an asshole: she doesn't give the zippo back after saying "just like I gave Lily back" which is a stupid analogy, of course, but she's hurt and angry. Most fights in my happened for dumb things like that.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on May 23, 2017, 06:01:10 AM
Even though I've loved the recent turns this show has made, the wildness in Kevin senior's episode as an example, I believe this one was almost like a kickback to season 1. Even the piano cue heard throughout it popped it's head up for the first time this year (if I'm not mistaken). It's almost as if Laurie's"rationality" was guiding the tone unlike previous eps.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 23, 2017, 07:49:22 AM
The piano cue is in every episode.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on May 25, 2017, 03:08:34 AM
Man, Carrie Coon's Emmy submission reel should just be the clip of her saying "Okay" after Matt tells her he's going to stay with her at the beach. I know I'm a broken record about it, but she is on such an entirely different level, it feels unfair to the other actors who have to try and share a scene with her.

To be clear, I loved when Laurie looked at the dog, because that said everything. Then she had to actually speak to the dog to say what we had definitely just figured out. It felt like she was saying that just in case I had not made that connection. It was dumb and redundant. She was speaking to the audience, not to the dog.

100%. In an otherwise near-perfect episode, I didn't appreciate the show treating me like an idiot. I was fine with all the other instances you cited as problematic, but this one was egregious.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2017, 04:13:26 PM
Man, Carrie Coon's Emmy submission reel should just be the clip of her saying "Okay" after Matt tells her he's going to stay with her at the beach. I know I'm a broken record about it, but she is on such an entirely different level, it feels unfair to the other actors who have to try and share a scene with her.

Yes, Carrie has been stellar here, also really good in Fargo and Gone Girl. I look forward to see her in anything she does.

So there are just two episodes left, can they wrap this up in two hours? My guess is that the last episode has to be more than an hour, 90 minutes would be great.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on May 25, 2017, 05:39:49 PM
As long as the finale of season 2. 70 or 80 minutes. I don't remember.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Shughes on May 26, 2017, 02:12:08 AM
SPOILERS

I agree with most of the issues raised about this episode talking down to the audience. And I'd add to that list some of the stuff with the Zippo lighter. We know the significance of the lighter to her so there was no need to bluntly remind us of it in visuals with the flash of Jill AND in Kevin's dialogue. I think one or the other would have been fine but both were overkill. That's the kind of lowest common denominator bullshit I'd expect in a lesser show, but not here.

Saying that I think the visual memory flashes are something this show uses very well at times and often to add a poignancy to key scenes.

I also really like that she gives the lighter, and it's message, to Kevin.

Norah was acting like an asshole in this episode and for the first half I found her really irritating (maybe I was supposed to) but towards the end of the episode I was completely bowled over by the character and performance (again).
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2017, 12:37:39 AM
That's how it's done.  :bravo:

SPOILERS

The experience of watching this was a lot like "International Assassin" for me:

I was so delighted throughout this episode that I was laughing with glee. One of the best hours of television I've seen. We don't even deserve this show.

Just... everything. I loved everything. This is in a completely different galaxy than last week's episode. The "God Only Knows" cue, and that scene, will be an enduring highlight of The Leftovers for me. It's like the show is tapping right into my soul.

Evidence that it was all in Kevin's head: Laurie wasn't there, because he doesn't know she's dead. If this were real, wouldn't she make an appearance, given how important she was in his life?

Evidence that it was real: Christopher Sunday is really like that, and that's really what he said to Kevin Senior. I would almost say that Australian Sheriff Kevin being there is more evidence, because I don't think Kevin has ever seen him. Was his face on TV earlier this season?
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Tictacbk on May 30, 2017, 09:04:21 PM
Spoiler, of course.

Evidence that it was all in Kevin's head: Laurie wasn't there, because he doesn't know she's dead. If this were real, wouldn't she make an appearance, given how important she was in his life?

Could also be taken as evidence that Laurie didn't go through with it? Loved this ep, can't wait to see what they do in the finale.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on June 01, 2017, 12:30:16 PM
They'll play Season 2 into music during the finale's titles, right?

They are setting us up for the whole "the answers don't matter, it's the journey, man" bullshit that ultimately keeps this from being great, but I knew that's where it was headed so I'm ready for it and can probably enjoy the finale more than the Season 2 finale.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on June 01, 2017, 12:56:01 PM
If you want an answer for The Departure I don't know why you keep watching the show. There was emotional resolution in these last episodes for Laurie and Kevin, and I expect the finale to give a resolution for Nora. I expect an ending. It's not just a road trip.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on June 01, 2017, 02:16:12 PM
Oh, I never expected an "answer" about the Departure (though the show really wants me to want an answer so it can rub it in my face when there isn't one). I mean an actual ending.

I expect it will be Nora getting zapped and we don't find out where she goes, but there are suggestions that it could be anything and you get to decide and blah blah boring blah.
I don't care about that. I want the show to have felt like an album instead of a series of singles, but I don't think I'm getting that and I'm accepting it.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
SPOILERS

We got our completely bonkers episode last week, so I was ready to accept something more grounded for a finale. And I think I loved it. Needs to sink in a bit. But everything felt right.

Nora's tribulations (sort of ending with the goat) reminded me of Matt's troubled journey in "No Room at the Inn." I look forward to rewatching that without wondering if I knew what was really going on.

I continue to enjoy the references to Lost. Kevin's scar is similar Jack's scar in 601. (Pretty much the same sort of device. An injury sustained in one dimension carries over to the other. And in both cases there is a rational explanation given.) Also, you could say both finales end with something flying to return home.

This finale takes the same general approach as Lost's finale — answer some big questions and leave some mystery (more mystery here), while putting a special emphasis on emotional resolutions.

I do not believe Nora went through. There are many reasons to doubt her story, and we even get a few hints in this episode. Nora changing her mind would mirror what happened with Laurie.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Fuzzy Dunlop on June 05, 2017, 01:49:38 AM
SPOILERS

I loved it. I just started watching this show like a month ago and now I can't believe it's over. One of the most moving and batshit shows ever, with a satisfying finale that can stand up with some of the all-time greats.

SPOILERS

I do not believe Nora went through. There are many reasons to doubt her story, and we even get a few hints in this episode. Nora changing her mind would mirror what happened with Laurie.

I'm a believer. I don't ever remember Nora not following through, she's gone to extreme after extreme throughout the series. The first scene of the episode even has her saying loud and clear into the camera "I'm not a liar" and walking out on Kevin because she can't live with his fake story of how he found her. Laurie has a history of pulling back at the last minute (Breaking her silence to Kevin when the house is on fire; Previous suicide attempt) so I buy that, but Nora is different. And the concept of there being this whole other side where everyone thinks that it was the other 98% that departed is just too fittingly heartbreaking to be a lie created by one of the characters. It's a much stronger story choice for it to be true. Especially since there still isn't any explanation of why this happened, or if there is any reason at all.

I'm really curious about what the limbo place Kevin visits is supposed to be, because it seems to have nothing to do with the Other Side that Nora ends up visiting, and is way weirder. I wonder if his experiences there have anything to do with his heart condition. I can't think of any other reason for them to have added all that information to the last chapter of the story. 
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on June 05, 2017, 03:12:42 AM
Yeah, Nora's defining characteristic is her stubbornness. There's absolutely nothing in her character that suggests she would have backed out, and even less that she would then concoct an elaborate story to cover her backing out. I firmly believe we are meant to take what she says as an accurate account of events.

The episode was basically perfect, in my eyes. The series is a story about loss and grief, and the ending is about finally being able to let go and move on. I can't imagine any way they could have done it better.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2017, 09:28:41 AM
I want to believe. But I don't. I mean, it's obviously meant to create a debate.

If you could solve some plot holes for me and explain how Nora's account of the other side makes any sense, then I might believe.

Given the crisis there, the inventor never thought to build a new machine? Until Nora suggested it? Really? What other more important project was he doing? And wouldn't the reappearance of loved ones there have caused some kind of realization/resolution that would fundamentally change society? I mean they would literally have proof and knowledge of the other side. Which seems like something Nora would have mentioned.

Also. When Nora supposedly came back via the new machine, she traveled to Australia to hide out there? Doesn't it make more sense that she simply stayed in Australia?

Re: Nora not lying. She lies at least once in this episode. Tells the nun that she doesn't know Kevin. The nun also lies, to Kevin and to Nora. And the whole bird scheme is a lie, which Nora is centrally responsible for. Lying is kind of a theme, and Nora is right in the middle of it.

I could go through the hints in this episode, but I'll name one: The nun argues that the love notes lie is okay because it's a better story. I think that obviously inspires Nora to tell her story to Kevin.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on June 05, 2017, 09:53:03 AM
I was more satisfied with this ending than I expected. Really like it.
It still holds inside it what drives me crazy about this show wasting its potential. Kevin's justification of why he was pretending he didn't remember anything since they met makes little sense. The reason is so people watching will be all "OH What's going on here?! Is she in another dimension? Did Kevin just travel here? This is a MYSTERY!". Again, Lindeloff has little interest in WHY people do what they do and much more interest in making people wonder (and fair enough, he's good at it).

To JB's point, whether or not Nora was lying is meant to stir debate, but both sides kind of don't make sense.
JB explained exactly what I was thinking about if we are meant to believe her. If she was lying, "the better story" doesn't sell me. She was too emotional, she definitely believed the story. We have never seen such amazing lying if she were lying.

Anyway, I liked this episode and I'm glad it's over.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2017, 10:27:19 AM
I should point out another Lost connection. The collected notes are a reference to the Pearl, the Dharma station where "observers" would studiously take notes in journals. Those journals were sent through a pneumatic tube, ostensibly to be collected and studied, but it turns out they just fell out into a pile in the middle of nowhere, never to be read by anyone. (And the observers were actually the ones being observed.)

Kevin's justification of why he was pretending he didn't remember anything since they met makes little sense. The reason is so people watching will be all "OH What's going on here?! Is she in another dimension? Did Kevin just travel here? This is a MYSTERY!"

You know what, I will actually give you that point, because I thought the same thing.

At the same time, I love being trolled by Damon Lindelof and have for a long time. I think it's an acquired taste. In Season 2, when Patti actually started singing "Never Gonna Give You Up," I basically exploded with joy.

If she was lying, "the better story" doesn't sell me. She was too emotional, she definitely believed the story. We have never seen such amazing lying if she were lying.

That's a fair point too, but I'm willing to accept it as an imperfection of producing this thing.

I think Nora would have had all the time in the world to dream up this story. She seems to be living with a sense of shame. (Shame that she couldn't go through with it.) She seems to have lost a lot of dignity. Maybe she's even started to believe the story.

The idea that her family are actually the lucky ones on the other side seems like a fantasy that might have been on her mind for years as she wondered what happened.

Yes, Nora is stubborn. But that is a characteristic, not a certainty. All the time, people make choices that don't exemplify their traits. Nora might have been swayed by another of her core traits — skepticism. And that might have saved her.

Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on June 05, 2017, 10:56:21 AM
I love being trolled by Damon Lindelof and have for a long time. I think it's an acquired taste.

And this is the reason we disagree about this show (and Lost). I have never acquired this taste.
Thing is, I will probably watch the next thing Lindelof puts on a television (fuuuuuuck his movies) so maybe I'm getting there.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2017, 11:36:37 AM
fuuuuuuck his movies

Yeah. He's mostly been doing editing/rewrites, though. Personally I would have tried to take my name off Cowboys & Aliens.

From what I understand, his contribution to Prometheus is by far the best part of it.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Fuzzy Dunlop on June 05, 2017, 03:05:19 PM
Ok I'm starting to come around to the "she's lying" theory. It's certainly designed to work both ways and to stir debate, so to some degree we have to just let the mystery be. But the more I look at it, the more I'm starting to see that her choosing to tell this story and Kevin choosing to believe it is actually way more cathartic for her character. By crafting her own story (or "Book of Nora") she's making the choice to let go of the past and move on, giving up the mystery and search for truth of what happened, recognizing that the only truth worth concerning herself with now is that she's alive and with her partner.

There's also the whole thing of it basically being Lindelof saying "Look, I'll tell you exactly where the 2% went, and you can believe it or not." Ultimately the story we're watching is all made up anyway, and the only thing that really matters are the character's emotional arcs. It's fun to debate, but similar to the ending of Inception, whether or not it's 'real' is far less important than whether or not these characters have found peace.

even though he's totally still dreaming at the end and the entire film was actually an elaborate inception performed on Leo by Michael Caine to help him get over the loss of his wife and the end of the film is actually the end of the dream because he found his catharsis and that's really the only theory that makes sense to me at this point
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Fuzzy Dunlop on June 05, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/leftovers-finale-behind-the-scenes-exclusive.html (http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/leftovers-finale-behind-the-scenes-exclusive.html)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Shughes on June 05, 2017, 05:34:14 PM
SPOILERS

Man I loved this show, and these characters.

The finale is still sinking in.

I'm leaning towards the theory that Nora was lying too - telling the better story - and that there is a suggestion that neither she nor Kevin believe it, but that it's something they accept as truth in order to put the past behind them and move on. It's a beautiful ending in that respect.

One other theory that is buzzing around my head is that Nora got vaporized in the machine and is in the same alternate place Kevin went to. And that Kevin finding her many years later is when he died from the serious heart attack he refers to (spending the interim time after the heart attack/death searching for her). The fact that Laurie is there suggests that she did in fact go through with her suicide. And I don't think we ever see anyone who would be alive in this episode/world - John, Michael, Kevin Snr. Maybe that's too far out there and I'm grasping at straws searching for something more complicated than is necessary.

As a side note I thought the make-up work was incredible in this episode.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on June 05, 2017, 06:13:04 PM
I must have been really tired when I watched the episode last night, because it honestly didn't even occur to me until I started reading other people's reactions to it that we were supposed to find the veracity of Nora's story ambiguous. But damn it, it makes more and more sense the more I think about it. If I had to choose a position, I would still err on the side of believing her, but I can see much more clearly now all the ways the writers seeded doubt throughout the series. Just makes me like it even more.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on June 05, 2017, 06:38:19 PM
Thematically, it even makes more sense for her story to be made up. The show has always been preoccupied with self-mythification as a means of contextualizing and comprehending things that are outside one's control or understanding. Matt's gospel, Kevin Sr.'s apocalyptic mythology, the Guilty Remnant, the lion cult, David Burton, even Kevin's trips to the underworld (though I feel like the show treats those as literal happenings in a way that it doesn't with the others).

Nora has always been the character most adamantly opposed to the concept, demanding an objective truth that she can hang her hat on, but as a result remains unable to ever let her wounds heal. Perhaps she finally realizes that by allowing herself that myth, letting the story-truth take precedence over literal truth, she can move on. Her rejection of Kevin at the wedding party (not being able to accept his presence because the story he tells isn't "true") is the extinction burst of her old mindset before the nun's satisfaction with a more facile version of the truth helps her come to her final realization.

Have I just come all the way around on this question? I think I may have done.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: RegularKarate on June 06, 2017, 09:49:04 AM
Not that it means anything definitive, but the director of the episode thinks Nora believes her own story.

From a Screencrush interview: (http://screencrush.com/the-leftovers-finale-mimi-leder-interview/)
Quote
Mimi Leder: Did you believe [Nora] at the end? What did you think? Did you think it was real?

Interviewer: I’ve come to the conclusion that I believe that she believes it, and that’s kind of enough. I don’t think I need to know if her story is real or not.

Mimi Leder: I couldn’t agree with you more. I mean everyone has different opinions about it and that’s really interesting, but yeah, that is how I see it very much too. It’s really interesting when people say she really went there in this contraption, which is believable as well. But it’s interesting what you will believe in, what each and every one of us wants to believe to get through the day, to offer ourselves some sort of peace, some connection to the here and now. So I found this story very satisfying, and a real left turn in filmmaking in terms of finale. It’s very different than the show and it’s its own little movie. It was really fun to do, and emotional. It’s like a little poem.

The way she phrases it, to me, looks like she believes Nora believes her own story, but that it isn't what really happened.What with the barely justified random insanity plaguing Kevin, I wouldn't be surprised if she had built an illusion that she believed.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on June 06, 2017, 01:47:41 PM
Not that it means anything definitive, but the director of the episode thinks Nora believes her own story.

From a Screencrush interview: (http://screencrush.com/the-leftovers-finale-mimi-leder-interview/)
Quote
Mimi Leder: Did you believe [Nora] at the end? What did you think? Did you think it was real?

Interviewer: I’ve come to the conclusion that I believe that she believes it, and that’s kind of enough. I don’t think I need to know if her story is real or not.

Mimi Leder: I couldn’t agree with you more. I mean everyone has different opinions about it and that’s really interesting, but yeah, that is how I see it very much too. It’s really interesting when people say she really went there in this contraption, which is believable as well. But it’s interesting what you will believe in, what each and every one of us wants to believe to get through the day, to offer ourselves some sort of peace, some connection to the here and now. So I found this story very satisfying, and a real left turn in filmmaking in terms of finale. It’s very different than the show and it’s its own little movie. It was really fun to do, and emotional. It’s like a little poem.

The way she phrases it, to me, looks like she believes Nora believes her own story, but that it isn't what really happened.What with the barely justified random insanity plaguing Kevin, I wouldn't be surprised if she had built an illusion that she believed.


I'm definitely with her in the sense that it really feels like Carrie Coon played the scene as though she believed the story. I think that's why I landed so strongly on that side of the aisle on my initial viewing; the performance was so convincing I failed to notice all the clues to the contrary.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: modage on June 06, 2017, 02:59:58 PM
Overall: I loved the series and felt satisfied by the finale even if it didn't hook me emotionally as much as I wanted.

I too think she was making it up. It's a perfect construction of a way for Lindelof to "have his cake and eat it too" regarding answering the one question he said the show would never answer -- where people went after the Departure -- to silence any potential trolls telling him he never said where they went. But for the themes of the show, it makes so much more sense for her to be making up the story, Kevin believes her because he wants to believe in something/someone, and it doesn't matter that it's not true if it helps her cope. If it's true, there really isn't much ambiguity, it just straight out answers all the questions and seems too tidy. The fact that we get flashes of Nora's kids and other things and when she's telling the story we see flashes to her getting into the machine, but we never see a glimpse of her going through seems to make sense that it didn't really happen. Of course this would be a cinematic thing to shoot, her walking around a vacant Mapleton, tying the beginning and end of the series together, but they don't do it because it's a lie.

Also interesting to note in interviews Lindelof keeps saying that if you know something isn't true but someone else tells the story and they believe it, does that make it true? Which also seems to support the notion that Lindelof believes its a lie but Mimi and Carrie believe it's true (none of those 3 ever discussed if it was true or a lie, each made up their own version that worked for them), so does that make it more true? The answer is: there is no answer. But I believe Lindelof believes it's not true, whether that makes it more definitive than Carrie or Mimi's version is up for debate.

Even the last shot of all the birds flying back to the roof is a great wink to the audience because WE keep wanting to believe in something greater, higher, more romantic so when it seems like these birds are really going to deliver these love notes into the world instead of coming back to Nora's, we want to believe that. But when they just return home, it's like, but of course they do. But for that moment they didn't, you believed. That's in our nature.

I will miss this show. And thrilled to see Lindelof getting his reputation back and can't wait to see what he does next.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: polkablues on June 06, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
From the long Vulture article posted upthread, it's pretty clear that Lindelof and the writers room settled on her having made the story up, though his ultimate goal was for the audience to come down 50/50 on either side of the question. To me, the important thing was the emotional resolution. Not knowing for sure if it was true, a lie, or something in between is a fun game, but not particularly important in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on June 06, 2017, 06:08:57 PM
Nora got her International Ghost.

I loved the finale. I don't care if her story is true. But I definitely think it felt real to her.

The mood was eerie, the moments with Kevin/Nora intense...it was simple but it had scope. I couldn't be happier.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2017, 01:57:39 PM
So there's this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJcgX9FltfQ
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Drenk on June 07, 2017, 05:32:22 PM
I couldn't stop about Freddy Quell saying "How did you find me?" after The Master so I probably won't stop thinking about all the ways Carrie Coon says "How did you find me?" in The Book of Nora.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: WorldForgot on July 08, 2017, 02:19:01 PM
SPOILERS
She 100% never woke up, by the way. And I sort of think it does matter. Although, it's true, that's not the most important truth.

hehe

(just got to szn 3... never thought LOST could be replicated, but, here is the glory of Kevin & Nora!)
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 08, 2017, 02:21:56 PM
You got me.  :(

It's funny, after the reveal I remembered I said that, then I just hoped no one would remember.

I think my GoT predictions are slightly better.
Title: Re: The Leftovers
Post by: WorldForgot on July 08, 2017, 05:00:51 PM
You got me.  :(

It's funny, after the reveal I remembered I said that, then I just hoped no one would remember.

I think my GoT predictions are slightly better.

Winter is here!

I got to the site via the Inland Empire essay that cites you, read a bunch of the Lynch threads and had to join. Looking forward to catching up with the backlog of posts.