Plagiarism - what are the boundaries?

[Sleepless]

Wasn't sure where to put this, but thought this forum might be the best place to discuss it. We all know certain film directors pay homage (or rip off, depending on your point of view) visuals from other movies, but do writers do this consciously too? I don't mean with general stories, but with specifics. For example; in 'Keeping The Faith' there is a scene where Ed Norton does Rain Man impressions - would they have had to get permission to do that, or pay any licensing fees? Another example might be the Smurfs conversation in Donnie Darko. Understand? Or waht if someone wanted to pay homage to Titanic, Jim Cameron, bigshot hollywood director, if someone wrote a script where they have a character jump up the front of a boat and shout "I'm King of the world!" would they have to pay him? Or at least get his permission? I was just wondering, don't know if anybody has any answers, but I'm interested in what other people think. Also, in spoofs (eg Hot Shots, Scary Movie) did they have to get permission/pay for the films they imitate?

[metroshane]

I know this isn't the answer you were wanting...but the real answer is ask a an attorney.  The reason I say this is because the law is made to be interpreted...so there are no hard fast rules.  There are some general rules, but the funny thing about the law is that one person may lose a suit and another may win for the same offense.  Or what seems to be the same offense.  

I'm sure a few people will pop in with their understanding..but remember that an attorney is the only one who can give you a real interpretation.

[molly]

some people use lines from movies in real life, and use them badly. What would you do to them?
some people don't look that great, and yet they behave as if great looks are their only asset.
"Lost in translation" - how many different stories could you tell that could be titled with this right now hot title, and which would be each one different from another?
Mulholand Drive deals with crime and punishment, but did Lynch riped off Dostoevsky?
If Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman used autism, does that mean that nobody else can use it anymore? Will doctors be allowed to use it as a diagnose, or a patient will have to pay money to them? Did they pay money to the people who discovered autism?
To who will Lynch have to pay money for rights because he goes deeply into psychology and psychoanalysis?
For Crist sake, there are WHOLE BOOKS on the Internet about who we are, and for FREE, the only thing people who put them worry about is will they have enough money to keep the website live, and some people who made some mediocre movie that earned too much money as it is, want to make some more by what? Counting syllables?

[molly]

should Fight Club pay money to Ikea for mentioning it?

[xerxes]

some people use lines from movies in real life, and use them badly. What would you do to them?
some people don't look that great, and yet they behave as if great looks are their only asset.
"Lost in translation" - how many different stories could you tell that could be titled with this right now hot title, and which would be each one different from another?
Mulholand Drive deals with crime and punishment, but did Lynch riped off Dostoevsky?
If Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman used autism, does that mean that nobody else can use it anymore? Will doctors be allowed to use it as a diagnose, or a patient will have to pay money to them? Did they pay money to the people who discovered autism?
To who will Lynch have to pay money for rights because he goes deeply into psychology and psychoanalysis?
For Crist sake, there are WHOLE BOOKS on the Internet about who we are, and for FREE, the only thing people who put them worry about is will they have enough money to keep the website live, and some people who made some mediocre movie that earned too much money as it is, want to make some more by what? Counting syllables?

i don't think that really addressed what sleepless was asking

[Pedro]

i think references are ok.  as long as they're seen in the film as references and not as something that the screenwriter invented, they should be in the clear.  as far as camera shots go.  there are pretty much no rules...it's just being not as inventive as creating your own specific shot...really, once a shot is invented, it goes into the film lexicon, and that's free to everyone.

[Pubrick]

if sumone calls u "the new tarantino", u've gone too far.

[metroshane]

NO offense Molly, but you clearly have no understanding of the legal basis inwhich he is asking the question.  The only reason I bring it up is b/c that kind of advice is dangerous.

as far as camera shots go. there are pretty much no rules...it's just being not as inventive as creating your own specific shot...really, once a shot is invented, it goes into the film lexicon, and that's free to everyone.

And Pedro, you may be interested in this...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/madimages1.html

And there are also reference clearences to be handled.


I'd ask that others provide some actual factual basis if they have any.  And remember, the answer isn't always "was I right" it is "can I afford to defend a suit".

[molly]

i understand that you talk about legal issues, but life preceds law - people make new laws all the time, when they see old ones are not enough.
But, you see there are people who like to think of themselves as cinephils, who have seen all the important films and when they come to cinema to see the film all they do is whine and cry Rip off!  Rip off!. It's possible that some might find that there are some basis for a law suit - America is famous for it's legal system - some cases that come in front of the judge and the jury are pure nonsense. I've read about that women that sued McDonalds because coffee was too hot - i don't like McDonalds either, but does that mean that my neighbour could sue me because i gave her too hot coffee?

Or waht if someone wanted to pay homage to Titanic, Jim Cameron, bigshot hollywood director, if someone wrote a script where they have a character jump up the front of a boat and shout "I'm King of the world!" would they have to pay him? Or at least get his permission? I was just

people actually use famous lines from famous movies in real life. Sometimes you get that they didn't get it quite right. It's funny. And "I'm King of the world" isn't very original sentence.
And life didn't start with James Cameron's filmmaking.

i think i got what sleepless was trying to say, i just wanted to show that "hommages" don't stop with filmmaking, that there is life outside movieland and when people who see film art just as some very lucrative business, might find themselves sued just as well as they sued other people.
I saw yesterday Mona Lisa's Smile - it's not masterpiece, people say it's female Dead Poets Society, but if people who have rights for Dead Poets Society decide it's a rip off of their movie, they would be very wrong.

[Sleepless]

Okay, another example: in the TV show The Lone Gunmen there is a scene where one of the characters says "Nazis... I hate those guys." This is taken straight from The Last Crusade, so would TLG had to have gotten permission to use this famous line. I know there is a legal risk in things like this, and I'm not trying to encourage plagurism, but is there a legal proceedure for this sort of thing?

Can you reference famous lines or visuals from other movies without getting the permission of whoever was responsible for them? Obviously with the whole legal standing this is a really clouded issue, but hopefully someone's got some sort of idea?

[molly]

"Nazis...i love those guys" - this isn't plaguarism

seriously, i think for plaguarism you should have a bigger chunk of the movie the same and serious about it. I think it's all about the context, but then again, you can't be very creative with opinion about Nazis.

[metroshane]

I've read about that women that sued McDonalds because coffee was too hot - i don't like McDonalds either, but does that mean that my neighbour could sue me because i gave her too hot coffee?

Again, you do not have a clear understanding of what the case was really about.  The case wasn't about hot coffee.  First it was about scalding coffee and it was about 700 previously reported claims against McDonalds for the same reason...it was also about McDonalds refusal to pay the Ms's medical bills.  They refused everything...the jury have her the punitive damages... she didn't go in asking for it.  But I can concede that I see where your point was coming from with your explanation.

Sleepless, again your question is pretty hairy...and really centers around copyright infringement.  For example, there is not clear line between these two lines of text...

1.  Hello, good to see you.
2.  Luke, I am your father.

You see, some lines are part of everyday conversation...some are directley contributable to some famous movie...so you have to have an interpretation...and let's not hope it's from a jury or judge.

[Sleepless]

True. I think context would be an important thing, but then that's the thing with the law - it's all open to interpretation... but then how often does 'reasonable' mean the same thing to two people. I get what you're saying though. I'd still like to hear if anyone has any solid information on the subject, but the basic thing is "be careful" for sure.

[Raikus]

Taking a line or phrase from another movie isn't plagerism. It's called sampling. For more information, see "rap music."

You're allowed to sample other people's works as long as it isn't considered a massive amount. For music, it can be a couple of notes (think, Busta Rhymes' "Give Me Some More" and the Psycho theme). As for movies, saying a line out of another movie isn't plagerism. If you were to recreate a scene from another movie, then you could be sued, or even an whole conversation in a different situation.

Basically it boils down to using other people's works in two legal ways:

1) Sampling -- using small phrases or references.
2) Spoofing -- directly making fun of someone else's work.

Now when you talk about specifically mentioning a TV show or characters you start getting into the gray area. Some creators are very touchy about being mentioned. I'm thinking specifically about Blair Witch when they talk about Gilligan's Island. They had to pay CBS a massive amount of money to keep the mention. If the phrase (Smurfs for instance) is considered public domain due to pop culture reference then it can be mentioned without payment, but then you're really getting into legal circumstances of what is and what isn't public domain.

Whatever you do, never mention Disney characters.

[metroshane]

Give us the context and the quote and we'll try and give your our non-legal interpretation.

You are trying to get a clear answer to an unclear question.  For instance, I could say "luke, I am your father" if I was satiring something (see SNL), but I couldn't say it if I was making a movie about space wars.  Tommy Boy probably didn't HAVE to get clearence (even thought they probably did) because he was satiring it when he was speaking into the fan.  However, if it were a star trek movie and someone said "Spock, I am your father", then I'm sure Lucas would have a problem.