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Film Discussion => The Small Screen => Topic started by: diggler on June 06, 2011, 02:39:04 PM

Title: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 06, 2011, 02:39:04 PM
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fgameofthrones%2Fimages%2F5%2F50%2FTyrion_203.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20120221232613&hash=302183206e967e6794be6d6b7ea5fdd04c8a3e3f)

I suppose it's about time we start talking about this one, as it seems like it's going to be around for a while. I know very little about the source material, but from what I've heard it seems to be sticking rather close to it. Sean Bean doing his long haired LOTR thing is nice, but it's Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister who steals the show. So far I think it's doing a remarkable job of juggling a large cast and multiple storylines, and those opening credits are fantastic at establishing what is happening where. It's far from perfect but I'm enjoying it unashamedly. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: socketlevel on June 06, 2011, 02:54:38 PM
I find it all so boring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 06, 2011, 03:30:14 PM
the little I read about it didn't find interesting before it started, still i gave it a chance and was hooked since the 1st episode, it's very well made and to be honest the whole production of the series has surprised me, not that HBO doesn't invest in that but all the castles and locations look very real (some may be of course). this looks and feels better than many movies actually.

and I'm with you about Peter Dinklage's character, he's been great from the start.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on June 06, 2011, 04:56:05 PM
I have no interest in reading the books whatsoever, but this show is fantastic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 15, 2011, 04:42:17 PM
spoiler function doesn't work for me so...

SPOILERS FOR EP. 9

what an episode, just last week was talking with a friend and told her HBO already greenlit 2nd season, so that meant there was no way they would kill ned stark (haven't read the books), it was only a matter of time to see how he would get out of that one and....BOOM, he's gone, I couldn't fucking believe it.

I have a feeling they will leave us wit a huge cliff hanger, damn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on June 15, 2011, 05:54:28 PM
Spoilers


I unfortunately had the bit spoiled for me a few weeks ago, but I had no idea it happened in such an awful fashion, with him selling out his honor to save his daughters.  What a horrible way to die. It's not looking good for Khal Drogo either.

I'm glad to be this into an HBO drama again. I was kind of forcing it with Boardwalk Empire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: cronopio 2 on June 17, 2011, 03:23:54 AM
SPOILERS:


I THOUGHT A DRAGON was going to come out of blondie's vagina and save all of the starks.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 21, 2011, 11:12:23 PM
best new show without a doubt. therefore the best thing HBO has made in years (along with treme).

if ppl havent seen it I urge them to do so.


spoils

this show is not afraid to get rid of characters as we saw on ep. 9. now in this finale khal drogo is done for good too. i dont know the books so to me that was a huge surprised (im referring mainly to ned starks fate).


its going to be a long wait for next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on October 12, 2011, 04:55:31 AM
I just finished this season and what a fantastic show. Its like an NC-17 rated Lord of the Rings. Every single episode was fantastic save the last one, and i only say that cause i don't want to have to wait half a year to see what comes next. I urge everyone to see this.


Between this, BB Season 4, The end of Friday Night Lights, Louie Season 2, and Curb Season 8 this has just been a fantastic year for television, and we didn't even need Mad Men. Wish i could say the same for film, but i guess i haven't seen too much.


Spoilers:
I did NOT expect Stark to be offed like that, such a miserable way to go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: O. on October 12, 2011, 09:01:14 AM
Quote from: squints on October 12, 2011, 04:55:31 AM
Spoilers:
I did NOT expect Stark to be offed like that, such a miserable way to go.

GRRM kills off his characters religiously without the battering of an eyelash.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: modage on March 24, 2012, 10:44:39 AM
Season 2 starts April 1.

22 minute recap vid:


I may have already seen the first two eps.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 24, 2012, 11:32:02 AM
I finished watching Season 1 a week or so ago and liked it a lot, so I'm really looking forward to Season 2.

My only complaint really is how cartoonishly dislikable Viserys Targaryen was. (He's the blonde dragon prince guy who liked to bully his sister.)

I haven't read the books, but the show is quite powerful. [Season 1 spoilers] Ned Stark's story was so heartbreaking, I'm still trying to forget it. Even worse is everything that's happening to Sansa. At the end of the season, in fact, Sansa and Tyrion are my favorite characters. Sansa's predicament haunted me so much that I had to spoil myself a bit and look up her entire story as it happens in the books. [Season 2 and book spoilers!] I'm really glad I did, because I don't think I'd be able to endure what happens to her in Season 2 without knowing the eventual (merciful) outcome. Her arc is really epic, too, especially that last bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on March 24, 2012, 01:04:55 PM
This is a wonderful series. After the first season ended, I couldn't help myself and purchased all the books. I'm now on the most recently published fifth novel, A Dance with Dragons. I don't care much for fantasy fiction, but this surpasses all expectations. It really is one of the best series I've had the pleasure of experiencing. And it all gets much much worse for everyone involved (especially for those you care for). Martin is merciless, and I can only hope that the show will be equally vicious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 24, 2012, 01:12:25 PM
Quote from: The Perineum Falcon on March 24, 2012, 01:04:55 PMMartin is merciless, and I can only hope that the show will be equally vicious.

I just worry that it will get a bit sadistic.

This gets to what I was talking about at the end of my previous post. Given the slow pace of book 2, it looks like this is going to be a rough season, with no relief in sight until 1 or 2 seasons later. I don't know how much plot is resolved by the end of book 2, but that's what it looks like.

If it keeps happening, won't you eventually stop caring about your favorite characters, because you know they're probably screwed? I'm all for breaking expectations and being merciless to characters, but this could be a bit much. It almost reaches that point for me in Season 1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on March 24, 2012, 03:06:46 PM
Bad shit happens to good people, but it never becomes unbearable, it is also never hopeless. It's tragic, for sure; heartbreaking, even. Martin is so skilled that this actually becomes a strength for the story, as it keeps you guessing, and rooting for the characters you love knowing that death may literally be right around a darkened corner. But, as one door closes, another opens.
This is the exact opposite of The Walking Dead, and a direction that series should take, to be honest. There is a real sense of danger and doom.
The characters are in a constant state of development, including those you hate by the end of the first book/season.
Stick with it, JB, I encourage you; though it gets bad, it is always good (and justice will be served).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 24, 2012, 03:40:26 PM
Quote from: The Perineum Falcon on March 24, 2012, 03:06:46 PM
Bad shit happens to good people, but it never becomes unbearable, it is also never hopeless. It's tragic, for sure; heartbreaking, even. Martin is so skilled that this actually becomes a strength for the story, as it keeps you guessing, and rooting for the characters you love knowing that death may literally be right around a darkened corner. But, as one door closes, another opens.
This is the exact opposite of The Walking Dead, and a direction that series should take, to be honest. There is a real sense of danger and doom.
The characters are in a constant state of development, including those you hate by the end of the first book/season.
Stick with it, JB, I encourage you; though it gets bad, it is always good (and justice will be served).

Thanks for that. I haven't read any spoilers that suggest the plot is outright sadistic, but it goes right up to that line, so I was worried.

[More book and Season 2 etc. spoilers] Sansa's story (over all the books) is exactly what you're talking about. It almost gets unbearable, but she escapes those situations before those horrible things happen. The thing with her dad was enough, and then she's stuck in this abusive situation with Joffrey, and it looks like he's just going to rip apart her soul... it's just... ugh. (This is why I had to look up her spoilers.) At the same time, there's really some beautiful complexity there, which is happening with Tyrion too. He's part of this horrible, evil family, and he fights on their behalf (particularly in Season 2), and yet he's a good person, a completely likable character, who apparently delivers on his virtues when dealing with the Sansa situation. I can't wait to see how all of that unfolds. Slowly, I gather...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pozer on March 24, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
just finished season one. i cant remember the last tv show that put me through so much love&hate for its characters.......so gutpunched in the end.

has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on March 24, 2012, 06:38:08 PM
Quote from: Pozer on March 24, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.

Please qualify this remark by indicating if you have seen the wire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pozer on March 25, 2012, 12:20:01 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on March 24, 2012, 06:38:08 PM
Quote from: Pozer on March 24, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.

Please qualify this remark by indicating if you have seen the wire.

like half of season one only. got the rest in thee ol netflix queue, other stuff kept getting in the way for some reason.

were you one of the wire nuts? have you watched GOT? i'm a sucker for the renaissances partially why this show GOT me good.

SPOILERISH THINGS
author dude really likes to kill off his darlings ay // dont think i ever hated a child character more than that incestuous spawned piece of filth, i went into a mild depression after episode nine //  i think the blacksmith bastard boy and jon snow are bros.  
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on March 25, 2012, 02:50:41 PM

I am more excited for season 2 of GOT than I am for the return of Mad Men tonight. I was the biggest Med Men fan but it's been so long since it's been on. I'm not even watching it tonight cause I'm gonna have to rewatch the entire series before I can watch season five.



Quote from: Pubrick on March 24, 2012, 06:38:08 PM
Quote from: Pozer on March 24, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.

Please qualify this remark by indicating if you have seen the wire.

GOT actually reminds me a lot of the wire. The Wire is about the least episodic show that has ever been on television. It played out more like a novel than a television show.  You can't watch one episode or half a season and really get how great The Wire is or was.  You had to watch the entire season and see the entire plot line play out. GOT is very similar. You also have a large cast. The arrival of new cast and plot lines. The exit of beloved cast and plot lines.  The never ending plot.  Plus the shows aren't about a specific character or a group of characters.  Ultimately each show is about the game.  The Game and The game of Thrones. It's like the wire meets lord of the rings.

Last year, I ended up watching the entire series over fourth of july weekend. It was too hot to go outside so I stayed in, grilled hamburgers, drank cold beer and watched all of GOT.  Think I'm going to do that again. Spend an entire weekend rewatching and watching GOT season 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on March 29, 2012, 02:08:35 PM
Wow I didn't realize GOT was starting this Sunday. I've been singing this song to myself cause I'm so excited. Beware if you watch the video you will not be able to help thinking of this every time you see the GOT opening.




I find myself in the same situation with GOT as I am with The Walking Dead. I want to read the books but enjoying the show too much. From what I've heard, GOT is sticking closely to the books while The Walking Dead has gone a different path from the books. I'm still reluctant to read either one. The writing is so much better for television than film today I hope more beloved books are produced for tv over movies. Let Hollywood keep remaking old movies and tv shows. I just think the source material wouldn't translate as well to a film. The sopranos was originally intended to be a movie.  It probably would have ended up as a forgettable movie too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on April 05, 2012, 07:49:40 PM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 13, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
great episode tonight, all season has been great. the hour goes by like it was 10 minutes.

spoils for S02E07

and that ending, are those burn corpses the starks or not? my feeling is that they are not, those wolves wouldn't allow it, but in this show no-one is safe, so as someone that hasnt read the books im clueless. I hope they are alive.


cant fucking wait for next week.

if someone chimes in, please no book spoilers, or give the warning and hide them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2012, 01:07:39 AM
To your question, I'm 90% sure the answer is no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 14, 2012, 09:08:24 AM
I think Bran mentioned that two orphans were living there.  Plus, they wouldn't have sent the Maester away if they were really going to kill Bran and Rickon, since they showed him the burned corpses anyway later. They just didn't want him wise to the ruse.

Still seriously fucked up though, the look on Theon's face at the end says it all.  He's in way over his head.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 14, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
that 10% is what im worried, so I agree with you both, those cant be the stark kids, cant imagine they'd be gone just like that.

what keeps getting better this season is the dynamic between Arya and Tywin, both actors doing terrific work and getting the best parts of the script (Tyrion always has that too). I could see them talking for the whole hour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2012, 04:20:58 PM
My favorite part of last night's episode was actually the developments in Qarth. Love the warlock guy... probably the scariest character in the series so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 AM
haha yeah that warlock guy is like Robert Blake times a million. with a bit of Dean Pelton thrown in for camp value.

so i'm now caught up to the latest episode. let's talk shit! this thread should be up to 100 pages by now.. i can only assume everyone is waiting for the whole series to end before watching any of it. such a shame but i can understand. i know a couple of people who had to stop themselves after watching the first episode because they didn't think they could bear the weekly torture. i did the same with the wire (the Qarth of shows, the best that ever was and ever will be) and it was the best decision ever.

on the subject of masterpieces, pozer's claim that this has the potential to be the greatest show that ever lived.. i concur! the production value alone places it above anything i've ever seen on tv. the locations are just incredible, they feel completely authentic even though they are impossible.. i don't want this show to end because then the world they are creating will cease growing.

i also want to voice my disapproval of book discussion in this thread. fuck the books, i wouldn't even have heard of them if it wasn't for the show.. there is no way they could have created the immediacy or emotional involvement i'm getting from all the amazing performances.. well, apart from lena headey, who must be the only bad actress in the whole cast. lucky her role doesn't require much from her but to raise her eye brow incessantly, my contempt for her brow is possibly matched only by pozers contempt for her incestuous spawned cretin.

so fuck the books. i pledge my fealty to rightful king-title of George RR Martin, Executive Producer, and the protectors of the realm, lords David Benioff and DB Weiss of house HBO. may the vile scripture that gave birth to this magnificent piece of entertainment never hinder or spoil the legacy of the one true popular art form.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 15, 2012, 02:02:24 PM
welcome to the club!

yes, this should have the traffic that once had Lost or right now Girls.

Quote from: Pubrick on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 AM
the production value alone places it above anything i've ever seen on tv. the locations are just incredible, they feel completely authentic even though they are impossible.. i don't want this show to end because then the world they are creating will cease growing.

check this out:

it reminded me of Fincher's fx in Zodiac.






Quote from: Pubrick on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 AM
i pledge my fealty to rightful king-title of George RR Martin, Executive Producer, and the protectors of the realm, lords David Benioff and DB Weiss of house HBO. may the vile scripture that gave birth to this magnificent piece of entertainment never hinder or spoil the legacy of the one true popular art form.

im twitting them that!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: RegularKarate on May 16, 2012, 11:20:26 AM
I got a good deal on the blu for season one, ripped straight through it and caught up with season 2.
This is some amazing stuff.  Lots of "holy shit" moments.

The effects are so good that I don't really pay attention until something is a little TOO CG (But really, that doesn't happen too often).  I get a little worried about the future of the show, but that just comes along with a good show.

Now that I've caught up, it's killing me to wait.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on May 17, 2012, 05:12:10 PM
Yeah, i'm on board (have been for a minute), this show is the greatest on tv right now for sure.

Those stark boys are most definitely NOT dead. but that last scene was chilling.

This season has been all about violence against children...all the baby killin from ep 1, the white-walker baby-eatin' from ep 2 and now the mutilated kiddy corpses. This show pulls no punches and i half expect every episode to raise the bar (like i really assumed we'd see a full frontal bloody mess of what Goffrey did to those whores but that didn't happen).

The worst CGI in the show was EP1 when that dire wolf was all up in the captive lannister's face. that looked totally whack.

What i imagine will be the most difficult CGI and the thing i'm looking forward to the most?

Mother. Fucking. Dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2012, 11:24:22 AM
spoilers S02E08


they're alive! I know they had to right? but through out the episode I feared again, until I saw Osha.

I loved that ending, seeing Bran awake hearing the whole conversation with Hodor and his brother in the background, it was a sad and beautiful image (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/fbv/Bran.png).


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 28, 2012, 08:28:23 PM
spoilers

what an episode last night, great great stuff.

first, theres no way they can cover the whole story lines in 50+ minutes, asked about it and apparently the episode will be 64 minutes. the opening credits are 1:50, end credits around 90 secs, that would be 60 actual minutes of the show, like ten more minutes than usual.

Tyrion is the man, he's hurt but he'll live im guessing. I thought the guy from the king's guard that hit him was joffrey's personal guard (the one that slapped sansa) but apparently it was not him. so maybe cersei ordered that? anyway, after the hound ran away and fucking joffrey cowardly ran after his mother request, tyrion is stronger than ever (if he's not that hurt), at least the soldiers are rooting for him, and his plan with the wildfire worked like a charm.

speaking of the hound, itll be great for next season to see his adventures along sansa...again if in the next episode they are not caught and killed.

poor stubborn stannis, now he wishes he had the red witch by his side, I wonder if she or the smoke devil will show up.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 28, 2012, 09:49:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Sansa turned down The Hound's offer, so she's staying in King's Landing.  With Loras showing up at the end, it looks like Margery might the one to marry Joffrey, which is bad news for Sansa. 

I loved how they focused on one storyline this episode. For all the complaining people do about the lack of battle scenes, it seems like the show needed to do that to get everyone to shut the hell up.  Neil Marshall excels at splitting bodies in half.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 01:33:36 AM
spoilers

Good episode indeed. Loved the big green asplosion. Tywin's dramatic entrance very much worked for me. So weird to be cheering for the Lannisters, but as we know by now, that ambiguity and constant "who am I cheering for?" tension is part of what makes the story great. So much like Breaking Bad Season 4.

Quote from: ddiggler on May 28, 2012, 09:49:59 PMWith Loras showing up at the end, it looks like Margery might the one to marry Joffrey, which is bad news for Sansa.

Or is it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 29, 2012, 05:19:22 PM
I think it would be bad for her.  If she's not Queen, and Jaime shows up released, they have no reason to keep her alive. It's not like she can go back to Winterfell, but she certainly shouldn't stay in King's Landing. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: ddiggler on May 29, 2012, 05:19:22 PM
I think it would be bad for her.  If she's not Queen, and Jaime shows up released, they have no reason to keep her alive. It's not like she can go back to Winterfell, but she certainly shouldn't stay in King's Landing.

Well, think of it this way. Cersei and friends don't view her as a threat, really. They see her as a naive, weak, subjugated girl. Joffrey might have her killed, but Tyrion wouldn't stand for it, nor would Tywin, or even Cersei for that matter. And Joffrey's position seems weakened at this point. Sansa could stay in King's Landing and be trapped in some courtly role. I imagine they'd get some satisfaction continuing to keep her trapped. We don't know when or if Jaime will arrive at King's Landing, so for the time being Sansa is still a bargaining chip with Robb, in addition to all the other stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 29, 2012, 10:19:14 PM
Haha, a cunning stratagem, Jeremy b.

This show needs more than ten episodes a season, I don't want to read the books but I just can't believe they're adapting a whole book per season. They must be cutting massive chunks out. Without spoiling can someone confirm this either way? If there is nothing major left unadapted from each book in its respective season, then I might be tempted to give the first two a read after the next episode.

Here's something else i don't get: it doesn't matter anymore since she has run away, but why did tywin seem cool with his little helper girl Arya being such a liar about everything she pretended to be? Finding out she's a girl I can understand he saw she was just trying to survive, it impressed the old perv or whatever, but then he cottons on to the fact she's not some blacksmiths daughter but a noble lady.. and he doesn't give a shit? Shouldn't he at least be curious about who her parents are/were?

Same goes for cersei noticing shae in this last episode, but at least she was drunk and in the middle of a siege and suffering yet another prolonged stroke going by the severity of her brow-overacting.

Fave characters season 1
Eddard "Ned" Stark
Daenerys "khaleesi" Targaryen

Fave characters season 2
Tyrion "half man" Lannister
Arya "dickensian street urchin" Stark

Fave characters season 3
Omar
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on May 29, 2012, 10:19:14 PMThis show needs more than ten episodes a season, I don't want to read the books but I just can't believe they're adapting a whole book per season. They must be cutting massive chunks out. Without spoiling can someone confirm this either way? If there is nothing major left unadapted from each book in its respective season, then I might be tempted to give the first two a read after the next episode.

I agree, 12 episodes minimum.

From what I've heard, yes, lots is skipped (though much of it is backstory and tangents). But the way they try to do it is combine and simplify, rather than omit. This last episode is a prime example of that, and written by GRRM himself... apparently he just picked the highlights of the Stannis siege and made it much shorter/simpler.

Quote from: Pubrick on May 29, 2012, 10:19:14 PMHere's something else i don't get: it doesn't matter anymore since she has run away, but why did tywin seem cool with his little helper girl Arya being such a liar about everything she pretended to be? Finding out she's a girl I can understand he saw she was just trying to survive, it impressed the old perv or whatever, but then he cottons on to the fact she's not some blacksmiths daughter but a noble lady.. and he doesn't give a shit? Shouldn't he at least be curious about who her parents are/were?

He picked her out of a prison population, so perhaps he expects some shadiness, but ultimately sees her as harmless, maybe colored by the fact that she amuses him. It would be a stretch for him to believe she's a Stark.

Quote from: Pubrick on May 29, 2012, 10:19:14 PMSame goes for cersei noticing shae in this last episode, but at least she was drunk and in the middle of a siege and suffering yet another prolonged stroke going by the severity of her brow-overacting.

There might be some follow-up on that, assuming Cersei remembers. Hopefully Shae realizes she should get out of King's Landing now. It would be a Shaem if something happened to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 29, 2012, 10:53:31 PM
I think the 10 episodes is due to budgetary constraints.  If they stretched the story out, the production quality would suffer. I heard they had to beg HBO for extra money to pull this last episode off. 

I don't think Sansa is safe at all. She summed it up perfectly: "The worst ones always live".  She not only has to worry about the Lannisters now, but the Tyrells as well. Margaery gives off a seriously evil vibe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 10:56:38 PM
Well, yeah, I guess "safe" would be an exaggeration. I just don't think she's getting killed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on May 30, 2012, 08:25:54 PM
I would say 70 to 80% of each episode deviates from the source material, either through omission or fabrication (the Robb and Daenerys storylines, especially; Season One was more faithful). Some of this could be said to be "minor," but much of it sacrifices the authenticity of the story/world, and changes the characters quite significantly. In some cases, they seem to be writing themselves into a trap, if they still intend to go the same direction as the novels.
That said, I still enjoy the show, and forgive some of its transgressions, but others I have a hard time wrapping my head around.
While I agree that more episodes would be better, if they would change the layout it might improve the quality without upping the budget. Instead of attempting to develop every character every episode, why not focus on half of them, and alternate those groups? You could get more development in for each character each episode, and rid yourself of those 5 minute "scenes" where very little seems to happen. The  last episode is a great example of what I'm talking about. Can you imagine it working any other way had they checked back in with Jon or Daenerys just to say "hey"?

Also, Book 3 will be split into Season 3 and Season 4, which is a great decision. It's definitely the most important to keep intact, and the most heartbreaking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 30, 2012, 08:31:51 PM
Wow, well, that certainly sounds like a lot of deviation. Does this have GRRM's blessing or involvement?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on May 30, 2012, 08:34:46 PM
He is supposed to have full script approval, which puzzles me even more. Sometimes I just don't think he reads closely enough......
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 03, 2012, 07:42:01 AM
Quote from: Pubrick on May 29, 2012, 10:19:14 PM
Fave characters season 3
Omar

I can't wait to see him in a scene with Arya holding her own
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on June 03, 2012, 11:14:28 PM
Holy crap white walkers....



When does season 3 start? Next week right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:09:25 AM
Meh, zombies are zombies. We'll see what happens. My favorite part of the finale was actually Daenerys's section. With Theon's comeuppance a close second. (Though I don't understand where the Stark troops went or how they could have allowed Winterfell to be burned.)

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PMAnd Joffrey's position seems weakened at this point.

I was certainly wrong about that. I also thought Tyrion would be celebrated or at least recognized for his, you know, saving the city. I guess I overestimated the visibility of his role or something. I mean really, couldn't a whole bunch of people see that he was giving the orders, and that Joffrey was running away? I don't understand how all of that could have been whitewashed.

Also, why did Joffrey have to name Tywin hand of the king? That was already done. Tyrion was subbing for him. Did they need to do it in person?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on June 04, 2012, 12:27:33 AM
vague spoilers

Well i'm a total jackass and i just read the wikipedia entry for book 3, which will be seasons 3 & 4, and i'm convinced that George RR Martin has absolutely no soul.

But even knowing, I am anxious as hell to see all of those plotlines come to life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:41:14 AM
moderate, mostly vague Sansa spoilers (book spoilers)

...

After Season 1, I couldn't help myself and read Sansa's entire plotline. It's epic, satisfying, and she appears to get much more interesting. She could easily end up being one of the best characters of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 04, 2012, 10:50:53 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:09:25 AM
My favorite part of the finale was actually Daenerys's section.

mine too, when she entered that tower thought they would leave us with that huge cliffhanger, im glad we got closure with her story, good that she went from whining and demanding to take action by herself.

now that the 13 are death or trapped, wouldnt be logical to take the reigns of qarth?


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:09:25 AM
With Theon's comeuppance a close second. (Though I don't understand where the Stark troops went or how they could have allowed Winterfell to be burned.)

I dont get that too, they were surrounded and outnumbered, doesnt make much sense to see everything burn and do nothing.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:09:25 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PMAnd Joffrey's position seems weakened at this point.

I was certainly wrong about that. I also thought Tyrion would be celebrated or at least recognized for his, you know, saving the city. I guess I overestimated the visibility of his role or something. I mean really, couldn't a whole bunch of people see that he was giving the ordersnot even his, and that Joffrey was running away? I don't understand how all of that could have been whitewashed.

Also, why did Joffrey have to name Tywin hand of the king? That was already done. Tyrion was subbing for him. Did they need to do it in person?

not even his dad gave him credit, thought at least that would happen in some way or another. I hope tyrion isnt relegated from the spotlight next season...or killed.

I think Joffrey gave his grandfather his due because of cersei and to make it official, since his naming was done in his absence.


my other fave part was as usual Arya, even if it was very short. Id love to see her faceless, can you imagine? but she has to meet his mom and brother. btw, isnt too dangerous for them to travel alone? they are too exposed and unarmed (i think)

damn, its going to be a long ass wait for S3.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: RegularKarate on June 07, 2012, 10:10:28 AM
I love this show, but Season 2 finale was kinda boring compared to the last handful of Season 1 episodes.
After the siege, there wasn't too much to get me excited, it felt like tying up (mostly) obvious loose ends.  It felt like the same beats from the end of the first season played out again, but this time less incredible because we already saw it all happen and this time around it feels less important.

Still love the show and will probably be forced to read these dumb books between seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on February 23, 2013, 12:29:07 PM
Season 3 Trailer.

for the purists (JB), it isnt spoilerful

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on February 23, 2013, 01:35:32 PM
That's definitely a bit spoilery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on February 23, 2013, 01:53:19 PM
really? other than they are at each others throats I didnt think it was....what part you felt spoilery?


I probably wont see any more promos thou
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on February 23, 2013, 03:54:17 PM
If you subscribe to the creeping expansionary definition of spoilers that's taken hold over the last few years, then sure, it's spoilery. Then again, if you subscribe to that definition, why are you watching any promos in the first place?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on February 23, 2013, 09:19:36 PM
Hey, I said "a bit spoilery," which is clearly a couple steps down from "spoilerful." It's not egregious, and I'm not especially traumatized.

Nonetheless, if you really want to know, I felt the clip of Daenerys at 0:25 revealed a significant plot development that I would have liked to actually see develop first. It was not even clear when or to what extent that would happen.

0:45 is a spoiler... though I'm not really invested in that storyline.

The Daenerys spoilage after that is slightly annoying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 01, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
Well that was fuckin awesome. Can't wait for next week. Waiting sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 02, 2013, 12:49:57 PM
yes it sucks squirts, yes it sucks  :yabbse-smiley:

I know it was a given but still good to hear...

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy251%2Ffbv%2FGoT4_zpscf27806a.jpg&hash=ebcecc857759e9ffacd999b9c4712c74c0eb2d5d)


I have read that this season only covers the first half of the 3rd book, but haven't read it from the producers, anyone knows if that is true?


I hope we see Arya next week, I need my Arya fix :), btw I NEVER watch the teaser of next week's episodes, so if she showed up on that I don't want to know....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MacGuffin on April 02, 2013, 03:41:29 PM
Quote from: Fernando on April 02, 2013, 12:49:57 PMI have read that this season only covers the first half of the 3rd book, but haven't read it from the producers, anyone knows if that is true?


Any particular challenges?

Benioff: We always talked about doing the third book in two seasons, but it's not quite that neat. There's not a halfway point in the book where all the story lines break. We're drawing things in from other books and [adding] other plot lines that were implied by the books but not shown. It's trickier in that sense. We could easily write a show about just, say, Bronn [Jerome Flynn]. The Bronn Show.

Sellsword.

Benioff: Good title. We could do a great half-hour comedy with Sam [John Bradley] and Gilly [Hannah Murray]. It's an embarrassment of riches. There's so many great characters and you want to spend more time with them. George always wanted more hours per season. And it would be great, but we just can't. It was getting to the point where we were turning in VFX shots on "Blackwater" [last season] a week before airing. It was getting to the point where Quality Control in New York for HBO had to get the tapes couriered with 20 minutes to spare. There's no possible way for us to do an extra hour.

Weiss: The episodes will be longer though, slightly. We're getting a few more minutes into each episode.

Benioff: I don't know how Vince Gilligan manages to get every episode of Breaking Bad in at 47 minutes and 16 seconds. You never feel on Breaking Bad "oh they stretched that out" or "they trimmed it." It all feels perfectly organic.




http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/03/29/game-of-thrones-best-season-yet/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on April 02, 2013, 08:10:32 PM
I love how Vince Gilligan is a deity among show runners. Totally deserved.

Solid premiere, Dany had more to do in this episode than the entirety of Season 2, dragon CGI was looking a bit spotty though. That Giant on the other hand looked fantastic, i'm guessing that was forced perspective. Jon Snow still looks constipated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on April 03, 2013, 10:12:27 AM
Quote from: ddiggler on April 02, 2013, 08:10:32 PM
I love how Vince Gilligan is a deity among show runners. Totally deserved.

Solid premiere, Dany had more to do in this episode than the entirety of Season 2, dragon CGI was looking a bit spotty though. That Giant on the other hand looked fantastic, i'm guessing that was forced perspective. Jon Snow still looks constipated.

agreed on every point. especially how cool it is when other great shows praise breaking bad for setting the standard.

it's true the dragon looked like shit compared to that awesome giant, what the hell? i actually thought it was a weak episode. it was all a slow rebound from the events of the last season.. like someone getting knocked down to the ground and this episode being about them slowly getting back up. and even then they didn't even fully stand.

they can't afford to waste episodes like that. there was little momentum.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: ©brad on April 03, 2013, 10:17:01 AM
On a somewhat related note, Breaking Bad's best director Michelle MacLaren directed two of this season's GoT episodes. I remember on the nerdist podcast Vince and the writers were talking about how excited they were. I guess the admiration is mutual.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 07, 2013, 11:10:00 PM
E2 spoilers...

So Joffrey is a closeted self-hating homosexual, right? I'm dead serious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 08, 2013, 12:04:43 AM
spoils

ha! you're probably right, joffrey could be the ralph cifaretto of GoT, a little perverted creep who can get off only by pain.


I wonder if what Sansa said will bite her back in a really bad way.....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 08, 2013, 12:33:59 AM
Quote from: Fernando on April 08, 2013, 12:04:43 AMI wonder if what Sansa said will bite her back in a really bad way.....

I doubt it. The writers seemed to go out of their way to make that apparent. I don't think Margaery would gain anything by betraying Sansa. Plus, Sansa has done her a massive favor. She seemed absolutely delighted to get that information, because now she knows how to play her game. She's obviously operating at a higher level than most of those around her.

But yeah, overall, I don't think Sansa is seen as a threat by anyone. For that reason, and because she doesn't have much power, she doesn't seem to be in much danger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 09, 2013, 01:29:32 AM
SPOILER?

This moment was pretty awesome/sad


(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FexJI7Bs.jpg&hash=837d3de0cb161e530beab89d6c80af608c1e0919)


Also, this bitch is triflin'
from season 2 to renley, season 3 to joffrey

http://i.imgur.com/pPM5J2W.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/pPM5J2W.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 15, 2013, 07:54:18 PM
well, shit just got real, and Im guessing Jaime will never make it back to Kingslanding in 'one' piece...


is dany really selling one of her dragons? I think that when she's sailing safe with her army, that dragon will burn that mouthy bald guy for good and return to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2013, 08:22:47 PM
Quote from: Fernando on April 15, 2013, 07:54:18 PMis dany really selling one of her dragons? I think that when she's sailing safe with her army, that dragon will burn that mouthy bald guy for good and return to her.

That was also my thought. There are so many reasons. (1) He's already been thoroughly set up to be deserving of comeuppance. (2) Letting that deal stand would make Daenerys seem like a fool to the point that it would permanently damage her character, and I don't think GRRM is interested in that. (3) If she can get all of her dragons out of the House of the Undying, she should certainly be able to free one of them from some non-magical creep who suddenly has no soldiers. Also, he has no idea how powerful she is, and that she birthed said dragons in fire. They're almost shoving down our throats the extent to which he's underestimating her, calling her a whore etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on April 15, 2013, 10:19:50 PM
It doesn't seem like Dragons are something you can just "hand over" to someone. They're pretty devoted to Dany, and I don't think any transaction would change that. I loved that they had the balls to off Jaime's hand. Between him and Merle on the Walking Dead, one handed anti-heroes are so hot right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 21, 2013, 11:11:14 PM
daaaamn good episode.

specially dany's. I knew it! he burned that mouthy bastard and I swear I knew she could understand everything....

what else happened....oh yes, the young crows rebelled and went mad, poor Jeor Mormont a true crow till the end.


also, I actually feel sorry for Jaime all banged up and depressed, until that great intervention Brienne did, that storyline is becoming one of the best.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 22, 2013, 12:01:44 AM
Wow. Just wow. I had to watch the last 8 minutes again immediately. I was absolutely consumed with giddiness.

That was the most moving sequence of the series since Ned Stark's death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on April 22, 2013, 04:16:46 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 22, 2013, 12:01:44 AM
That was the most moving sequence of the series since Ned Stark's death.

YES. i also loved the crow implosion. and theon greyjoy's betrayal though i have NO idea what is going on with his storyline, i still enjoyed the switcheroo, it set the tone for the two other switcheroos in the episode, of which Kaleesi's was the greatest, best of the series maybe.

we need a template for talking about this show on an episode by episode basis, it's too epic, something like:

Most Satisfying Switcheroo/Payoff
kaleesi! i finally know who to worship unconditionally.

Intriguing Developments
the ongoing manipulation of Sansa, does she realise she is always being played?

WTF/Who Is That
dude with the eyepatch

I Have Completely Lost Track Of ____ Storyline
what the fuck is going on with Theon Greyjoy. i feel like nothing happened to him in the last couple of episodes, he's just back where he started. i was certain they were gonna kill him when they re-captured him in the forest, and i would have been fine with that.

CRUCIAL REMINDER: DO NOT USE INFO FROM THE BOOKS TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS HAPPENING. PLEASE CONTINUE TO ONLY SUPPORT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF A STORY/CHARACTER'S MOTIVATIONS BASED ON THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE SHOW ITSELF.  If there is any mention of the books alternate/future developments your post will be deleted and you may be banned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 22, 2013, 10:53:48 AM
a thousend  :yabbse-thumbup: on the banned if someone spoils and the template idea...

bold prediction
Pod has a two headed dick  :yabbse-tongue:  seriously, is that going anywhere? actually Tyrion hasnt done much this season (so far).


Quote from: Pubrick on April 22, 2013, 04:16:46 AM
If there is any mention of the books alternate/future developments your post will be deleted and you may be banned.

is it ok to talk a little about the first book? if not feel free to delete the below text.

I'm finishing the first book, if you care to know the difference read the white text about Ned's death, of not DONT!

the sequence of Ned's beheading in the book is good and all but what they did on the series is far superior, e.g. Ned and Arya never saw each other, therefore he never talked to Joren (the crow) who took (save) her, OTOH Joffrey's ''bring me his head!'' was exactly like the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 23, 2013, 11:14:13 AM
The mother of fucking god damned fucking dragons.

That was so epic. That singular 8 minute sequence was better than all of season 2.

Another part i dug from this last ep was Varys (Whisperin' eunuch) and his backstory with the sorcerer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on April 24, 2013, 11:54:14 PM
Quote from: squints on April 23, 2013, 11:14:13 AM
Another part i dug from this last ep was Varys (Whisperin' eunuch) and his backstory with the sorcerer.

"Whisperin' Eunech" sounds like a bar I'd like to visit
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 29, 2013, 12:51:00 AM
I've always thought Sansa was one of the best characters, so it's interesting to see how everything in King's Landing is sort of swirling around her, given that she is "the key to the North." (Will that become a thing?) King's Landing's sharpest players are in this particular game, and it's going to be fascinating to see who ultimately prevails. Of course it would be best if Sansa exercised some agency in the process, to realize some of her character's potential... we'll see if and how that happens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 29, 2013, 11:38:30 PM
Sansa is one of the best for sure, I wonder when she hears about marrying Tyrion if she'll want to flee with little finger, which obviously would be worse than being paired with the imp, at least he isn't gay (loras) or creepy (lord twat beard)....there are so many outcomes for this part of the story that I really don't have a clue what will happen....

oh, Cersei's face when Tywin told her she would marry too was priceless, first she was forced to marry a drunk womanizer now a gay lord...haha I guess she deserves it...

Brienne and Jaime's buddy cop story is pretty great, this damn show gives you so many mixed feelings, right now I feel bad for poor Jaime but then I remember how the prick pushed Bran out and how he ambushed Ned and his men, still, cant help feeling a little empathy for the man.

mean while at Stark camp....I think that beheading Rob did will curse him, and now he wants to go begging for an army to Walter Fray? he must have something under his sleeve otherwise I cant see Frey helping him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 06, 2013, 06:13:14 PM
SPOILERS S03E06

another good one.

showdown of the week
Tywin vs Lady Olenna. well clearly Tywin holds all the cards now, he apparently will get away with those weddings.

sibling bonding
after all Cersei didn't order Tyrion's death...I was sure she did, perhaps it makes more sense that Jeffrey did it, anyway, that was a great scene, I love that you can see the human side of ppl you are supposed to hate and Cersei was for once not playing games with Tyrion.

showdown of the week 2
Varys vs Little finger. what a pair make this little finger with Joffrey, fucking sadists cunts. poor Ros :( played the most dangerous game and lost horribly. ''Chaos is a ladder'' I wonder if Varys learned from this defeat and what he will do...

other good stuff happened, Arya and the red witch, Jaime and Ser Bolton.


this phrase worries me....if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention...


and the next two are directed by Michelle MacLaren those should be sweet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on May 06, 2013, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 06, 2013, 06:13:14 PM


this phrase worries me....if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention...


Seriously, stick with the idea that GRRM does NOT like seeing people happy.


Watching theon get tortured (AGAIN) had me cringing all day thinking about his finger. God damn that was gross.

I've read a storm of swords by now, and while i know what is going to happen, I am still intrigued as hell to see how it all plays out here. I'm holding out on the next book, just waiting for this and next season to be done so i can go into season 5 completely blind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2013, 08:51:40 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 06, 2013, 06:13:14 PM''Chaos is a ladder'' I wonder if Varys learned from this defeat and what he will do...

And yet he sort of won that battle for now, right? Varys was trying to deny him Sansa ("the key to the North"), and he did.

I feel comfortable liking Varys now. People like Littlefinger need to be kept in check. The "chaos is a ladder" line was totally chilling, probably one of the best lines so far. I like that it was saved until now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 09, 2013, 03:17:01 PM
SPOILERSOBVZ
-
-
-
i love gore but that finger shit made me and everyone i know freak out a little.
best things:
- i'm glad they're saving more khalisi stuff for michelles episode. she is consistently the most satsifying part of the show, i think because her moments are so sparse and sporadic that they dont get old. for instance the dragons havent gotten too incredible yet which is a very good thing.

- gradual increase of tyrion time is good. but whats happening with crazy virgin guy?
- opening scene was nice, that shot framed by the trees jesus.
- the wall climb was verging on mindless action similar to the firesword fight in last ep, but i loved the resolution at the end. the shows visuals will never cease to mesmerize me.
- how hilarious was jamie eating the meat one handed? i almost peed. but what are they gonna do with brienne who was looking surprisingly sexy in woman clothes.
- and yeah theons story is now confusing in a funny way because they straight up referenced it with 'this is why! no its not why!'
- it took me a minute to realise who the chick shot up with arrows was. i can only keep up with so many characters. but my god that shot was amazing, especially with littlefingers amazing monologue in the voice of darkknight batman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
the latest episode had a few problems so i can see why no one is talking.

spoils for s03 ep7

a bit too much bullshit
the main problem was with the ending. i just don't believe that all these people can be so easily manipulated by Jamie saying a few bullshit words about his dad and the price of his head and whatever else. ugh. it was so overused it felt contrived and frankly it didn't even seem like ANY of the actors really believed the bullshit they were saying in these scenes, jamie included.

they tried to make it interesting by throwing in a random BEAR but it just fell flat. so the whole episode suffered.

it was overall a wasted episode. the whole show is beginning to feel like a tease that goes absolutely nowhere. sometimes someone gets killed, great, but no one ever gets anywhere.  a whole episode to climb a wall, another episode to walk a bit further away from that wall... wow, and here's a windmill. haha.. it sounds ridiculous when you think of it that way, but truth be told that scene with the windmill was actually sorta nice, visually. but nothing compared to the final kiss after they scaled the wall in that previous ep, visually and emotionally. so what happened here added nothing.

that dickhead who will "make kings rise and fall" was shown kings landing. great, GIVE US MORE, his story is actually interesting! meanwhile the little girl was taken by the hound and it didn't even feel that significant even though it was the only truly dangerous incident surrounded by so much BULLSHIT.

bullshit with theon, we get it, he's been tortured. this is the kind of thing i say i never tolerate in other shows that constantly jump the shark, and if i wasn't for the rarity of such a lackluster episode i would be tempted to have to put my money where my mouf is and just stop watching altogether. but i'm hooked and it's good enough to stick with, for now.

nothing in this episode was new, interesting, or even worth showing. what a fucking waste of time and money.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on May 15, 2013, 04:11:22 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
bullshit with theon, we get it, he's been tortured.

This is the one part I completely agree with. As long as his storyline is "still being tortured," we don't need to check back in with him every week.

I don't mind a slow episode like this every once in a while, though. Not a lot of plot movement, but a lot of character movement. Tyrion faced off with Shae, Dany is cementing her status as hot Lincoln with dragons, we got the goddamn brilliant scene of Grandpa Lannister quietly putting the Little Shit in his place. And damn it, I like following around Jon Snow and Ygritte, even when they don't do anything but marvel at old windmills and make out against rocks. I'm invested enough in all these characters (except the whole Bran roadtrip... DOOOONNNN'T CAAAARRRRRE) that I can deal with an episode or two where they don't technically DO anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 15, 2013, 04:50:04 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
spoils for s03 ep7

a bit too much bullshit
the main problem was with the ending. i just don't believe that all these people can be so easily manipulated by Jamie saying a few bullshit words about his dad and the price of his head and whatever else. ugh. it was so overused it felt contrived and frankly it didn't even seem like ANY of the actors really believed the bullshit they were saying in these scenes, jamie included.

they tried to make it interesting by throwing in a random BEAR but it just fell flat. so the whole episode suffered.

I ate up this episode's jaime and brienne story and found it believable, I think he could manipulate ppl easily because they didn't have a choice, what could the guy taking him to king's landing do? he doesn't deliver Jaime lord bolton fucks him up, he does without going back he's a dead man so no other choice than to return to harrenhal. maybe Lock could do whatever he pleases but he already fucked it up by chopping his hand, lord bolton told him when he showed up with Jaime, that's my guess why he lets Jaime leave with her.

so....Jaime FTW.


Quote from: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
it was overall a wasted episode. the whole show is beginning to feel like a tease that goes absolutely nowhere. sometimes someone gets killed, great, but no one ever gets anywhere.  a whole episode to climb a wall, another episode to walk a bit further away from that wall... wow, and here's a windmill. haha.. it sounds ridiculous when you think of it that way, but truth be told that scene with the windmill was actually sorta nice, visually. but nothing compared to the final kiss after they scaled the wall in that previous ep, visually and emotionally. so what happened here added nothing.

I kinda agree here, the Jon snow story didn't really move forward, we just learned that some wildling also wants Ygritte and she again told her he was hers..

Quote from: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
that dickhead who will "make kings rise and fall" was shown kings landing. great, GIVE US MORE, his story is actually interesting! meanwhile the little girl was taken by the hound and it didn't even feel that significant even though it was the only truly dangerous incident surrounded by so much BULLSHIT.

agree again, something interesting happens every time we see Melisandre yet we see very little about her, now makes sense when she told Stannis that there were others with king's blood, does that mean she will fuck him and create another smoke monster, in fact, did that monster in S2 is useful only once?

also interesting what Melisandre said to Arya last episode, seeing death in her and many eyes she will shut forever...will Arya be a killer?

I hope the hound doesn't hurt her.


Quote from: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
bullshit with theon, we get it, he's been tortured. this is the kind of thing i say i never tolerate in other shows that constantly jump the shark, and if i wasn't for the rarity of such a lackluster episode i would be tempted to have to put my money where my mouf is and just stop watching altogether. but i'm hooked and it's good enough to stick with, for now.

yeah, it seems to be going nowhere, it has been well established he's in the hands of a psycho, this better have some big pay off or it will be as you said a waste of time and money.

in the end I really liked the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 16, 2013, 08:36:51 AM
i also liked this episode. as i said in the chat, i think this one suffered from doing something they don't do often: including almost every single character in one episode. it reminded me of the interview on page 4 of this thread where they said they admired breaking bad for doing so much stuff in one timeslot without it feeling rushed or stretched. which is also kind of weird since its mclarens first ep of the season. hm.

SPOILAHZ
-
-
-

- not much to say that hasnt been said.

- bear was random but i liked it. where did it come from though? do they just like have bears on hand? and if so, i hope they use more bears. seems like a good weapon if used properly.

- theons story is just ridiculous at this point and i dont care at all. i think they're nailing the unsettling vibe of torture by torturing us with its relentless boring confusion. i feel like theon: 'oh im gonna get laid/oh somethings going to happen, no theyre cutting off my dick, damn.

- my hope: arya's going to kill the hound and it will be amazing.

- i bought jaimes exit on every level, i dont think it felt off at all and was probaly the best scene of the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2013, 10:56:28 AM
I enjoyed the episode. It wasn't the best ever, but I guess I just like being in the world. Also I usually don't judge the show on an episode-by-episode basis, since it's normally so consistent and congruous, so I have that bias.

The Tywin scene was amazing. (I had been desperately waiting for a scene like that to adequately define that particular dynamic, and good God, it couldn't have been done better.) The Daenerys scene was almost as good. And there was plenty of good teasing of things to come. I guess that was enough for me.

The episode was written by GRRM, interestingly, and I think it reflects his style of storytelling, which is a little more plodding and flowery (and raunchy, apparently) than the show tends to be. I'm okay with an episode like that once in a while.

That said, I think the biggest problems right now are Jaime and Theon. (Obviously I'm not alone.)

Not totally sure what's being accomplished with Theon right now. They're certainly establishing the character of that psychopath, but that's pretty much it. I don't really like Theon, and no amount of torture is going to improve that. That's not what torture does; sympathy is not affection. (Actually I think I do know what they're doing with the Theon business, but it involves a moderate spoiler, so I'll keep quiet.)

While we're on the "sympathy is not affection" topic, note how they've handled Sansa's situation so much better. Obviously we've had sympathy for her since the end of the first season, but they quickly expanded on that. For me, it was the scene on the bridge when she almost pushed Joffrey off, and we could see the sense of injustice burning in her eyes, and this exchange happened:

Joffrey: I'll tell you what. I'm going to give you a present. After I raise my armies and kill your traitor brother, I'll give you his head as well.

Sansa: Or maybe he'll give me yours.

That's how you do it.

Jaime is probably the biggest challenge for me right now. The thing is, his character in all of his complexity makes complete sense EXCEPT (glaringly) for the time he pushed Brann off the tower. I mean, he did it casually, completely without hesitation or remorse, like he pushes kids out of windows all the time. The show has done much to justify his slaying of the king, which works for me, but it hasn't touched Brann.

Jaime only makes sense if you ignore the Brann episode. We have no indication that he regrets it. Jaime is being re-evaluated, not evolved. The difference is crucial.

Does anyone know if the books deal with that better? Please let us know, unless it involves future spoilers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on May 17, 2013, 12:19:26 PM
This episode was one of the more divergent in recent memory, all the more interesting that Martin was responsible for it. I take it as a chance for him to tell a different story than the one of the books. At first, I saw this as a problem, as most readers. I was not as enamored with the second season as I was with the first, mostly due to these divergences. But my mind has changed because of this season; they've handled it much better. It is interesting to see how the characters develop on screen apart from the books. It's an alternate history of Westeros, and this excites me. They will still follow the major plot points of the books,  however the journey has changed. What happens if they take a left instead of a right? It grants those that think they know how it will play out a few surprises along the way.

I'm really looking forward to the season finale. It's gonna be BIG. No doubt there will be much discussion afterward.

Jaime is one of the most interesting characters to follow. In the books, at least, he is one of the best developed. As for the Bran incident, Jaime has no qualms with taking a life if he will greatly benefit from it; it's about survival, you either win or you lose. The push was casual, but the impetus was protecting himself and his family. I'm sure there's some remorse there, but justification as well. If Bran had been allowed to legitimize the rumors, the Lannisters would have lost the throne, and their name would have been besmirched. Imagine how Tywin would have handled that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2013, 12:26:23 AM
Some insight from AV Club comments about why the episode is called Second Sons. Paraphrasing:

- "Second Sons" was the mercenary company.
- Tyrion is Tywin's second son, literally and figuratively.
- Stannis is Robert's younger brother. The second son of Steffon Baratheon.
- Sam is a figurative second son, abused/disliked by his father, which was highlighted in this episode.
- The Hound is a second son, the younger brother of The Mountain and forever in his shadow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 20, 2013, 08:48:25 AM
yeah yeah.

how bout this mufuckin episode from last night NOW THAT'S GOOD GoT.

spoils..

the little thing cos it was an old thing it killed the thing good. oh man!

little dude standoff with little king WOW best scene of the episode.

hound befriending little cool chick was a surprising development, i was expecting 03's prediction to come true. i guess he's the next bad dude we'll be made to sympathize with.

pretty boy and khaleesi, he was pissing me off until he dropped "valar morghulis" and i knew some good shit was gonna go down. hope he doesn't bang her though, oldmate ser jorah friendzone has been gunning for it for so long!

this show is probably the best written soap opera of all time. i feel like the old lady was kind of referencing this when going through the convoluted relationships that will result from the lannister/stark/tyrell marriages. everyone's just trying to get some, just that this is prime time and features child brides. madness!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on May 20, 2013, 08:48:25 AMhound befriending little cool chick was a surprising development, i was expecting 03's prediction to come true. i guess he's the next bad dude we'll be made to sympathize with.

I think so, but he's never been that bad has he? I guess he killed Arya's friend, but he was doing that on orders. Maybe there's something else I'm forgetting. He saved Sansa from the rapey/murdery mob, prevented Sansa (wisely?) from pushing Joffrey off the ledge, offered to take Sansa from King's Landing (but she turned him down), clearly hates Joffrey, seems to have an amount of honor, and apparently has a soft spot for the Starks.

He also refused Joffrey's order(s) to abuse Sansa, which they say is more clear in the books. Someone describes it here:

QuoteYes, he did ask the Hound to hit her and Sandor refused the order.
It's in her third chapter in Clash, the same one where she is stripped and then beaten with the flat of the sword. Joff gives the command, "Dog, hit her" and his refusal is rather obvious by the fact that he doesn't. Instead, Dontos begins to hit her with the melon with the hope this would satisfy Joff. Of course, it does not and Trant (I think it was Trant) actually beats her. The Hound then calls out "Enough" and Joff replies that it is not and says "make her naked" which is when her gown is ripped off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2013, 10:50:18 PM
Quote from: squints on May 06, 2013, 06:41:48 PM
I've read a storm of swords by now, and while i know what is going to happen, I am still intrigued as hell to see how it all plays out here.

I have non spoiler question for you of anyone who has read the 3rd book. obvsly please no spoilers.

right now we have seen eight episodes, are we near the end of the book? I ask because there are only two episodes left and it feels there is too much going on, and even though mac posted an article where the creators said they would adapt the whole book, ive read comments that still claim they're adapting only half....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2013, 11:12:24 PM
My impression was that the book is still being split into two seasons, so we will end this season somewhere near the middle of the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 02, 2013, 11:06:25 PM
HOLY SHIT!!


spoils S03E09




is everyone speechless??


this fucking show, read a few weeks ago a random comment about Robb so I had a bad feeling but not this bad, not like this.  :(

these Starks cant catch a break can they? at least the hound took Arya and she's "safe" (so far)

I hope the Stark kids live at least this season because I cant take losing one more.

btw, I didn't get why Catelyn realised what was going to happen, what was the thing she saw under Bolton's sleeve?


I'm devastated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
(Spoilers for this episode)


Uhh yeah, wow, that whole thing was executed in such a harrowing way. It reminded me of the scene in Qarth where the whole council had their throats cut, except this obviously had crazy emotional impact. (These were three of our lead characters!) It also reminded me of that scene in Braveheart (omg Braveheart spoilers incoming) where his wife's throat is cut. There's something about matter-of-fact stabbings and throat-cuttings of major characters that reliably delivers maximum devastation.

The stomach stabbing was absolutely horrifying. It certainly delivered that sense of WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?!? — that look on Talisa's face is pretty much how I felt. I still can't close my jaw.

Even more devastating was Catelyn's final expression. All the tragedy of her life was crystalized in that moment. And of course she had to be the last one to go, her throat unceremoniously sliced, the blood basically spraying at the camera. Her tragedy just usurped Ned's.

I definitely appreciated all the foreshadowing in this episode:

- Frey shrugging off the oath-breaking should have raised some serious red flags.
- Someone said of the impending festivities, "the hall will flow red with wine" or something like that.
- The surprise pretty daughter should have sincerely freaked people out. Why on earth would Frey be so generous?
- Bolton refusing wine.
- Robb and Talisa's excessive happy talk and smiling was like a screaming alarm.
- When sizing up Talisa, I think Frey was actually confirming that she was pregnant (his talk about being able to tell what the dress is hiding and such).

That's from memory; I'm sure a rewatch would yield a few more. Tell me what I missed.

When GRRM was writing the book, he was like... man, I need to kill another Stark, but it really needs to have some impact this time. Let's kill a few of them... and one of them should probably be a fetus.

Quote from: Fernando on June 02, 2013, 11:06:25 PMbtw, I didn't get why Catelyn realised what was going to happen, what was the thing she saw under Bolton's sleeve?

She was first tipped off when the guards closed the door. Then she started looking around and putting things together, and you could just feel that sinking feeling along with her. The dread in that scene was amazing.

Anyway, she saw that Bolton was wearing chain mail under his clothes, i.e. he was dressed for battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 01:24:29 AM
Some more to chew over...

"The Rains of Castermere," in addition to being the title of this episode, is the song that plays just before the massacre. It is the Lannister victory song, which Cersei apparently mentioned last episode.

Don't forget Melisandre's leeches! Robb was one. The other two were Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy.

Why did Jon ditch Ygritte? Maybe he's disillusioned because she killed that innocent guy.

Also I want to echo this sentiment that many people are having right now: Burn it, Daenerys. Burn it all to the ground.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 01:31:28 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
I definitely appreciated all the foreshadowing in this episode:

- Frey shrugging off the oath-breaking should have raised some serious red flags.
- Someone said of the impending festivities, "the hall will flow red with wine" or something like that.
- The surprise pretty daughter should have sincerely freaked people out. Why on earth would Frey be so generous?
- Bolton refusing wine.
- Robb and Talisa's excessive happy talk and smiling was like a screaming alarm.
- When sizing up Talisa, I think Frey was actually confirming that she was pregnant (his talk about being able to tell what the dress is hiding and such).

That's from memory; I'm sure a rewatch would yield a few more. Tell me what I missed.


not from this episode but last season Catelyn warned Robb that ''you dont cross a man like Frey'' or something like that when he was about to marry Talisa.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
When GRRM was writing the book, he was like... man, I need to kill another Stark, but it really needs to have some impact this time. Let's kill a few of them... and one of them should probably be a fetus.

read this, it's GRRM talking about the red wedding, dont worry, he just talks about what happened in this episode and nothing else.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
Interesting interview. I totally respect it as a creative decision... in fact all the foreshadowing and setup probably goes a little further than it has to.

But this is my feeling right now. You can put all the surprises you want elsewhere in the story, but if Daenerys doesn't deliver, I think I will be genuinely and unforgivably disappointed. You can make it complex... let her be corrupted, even... but she must deliver. I mean really. White walkers are killed by fire, and she happens to have fire-breathing dragons. Seems like things should come together. If she fails, it's just going to be dumb.

Oh and another piece of foreshadowing in this episode, delivered by Robb: "My mother's alone with Roose Bolton. I should rescue her."

Very funny, writers. That's just cruel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 01:55:32 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 01:24:29 AM
Some more to chew over...

Don't forget Melisandre's leeches! Robb was one. The other two were Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy.

Why did Jon ditch Ygritte? Maybe he's disillusioned because she killed that innocent guy.

Also I want to echo this sentiment that many people are having right now: Burn it, Daenerys. Burn it all to the ground.

all the time Arya was staring at the twins should be another sign, you can see in her sad/worried face she feels so close yet so far.

it makes sense now that she never made it since Melisandre told her they would meet in the future, I guess she's off the hook for now? speaking of witch....I'm taking a little comfort that Melisandre's leeches work, since Robb was the first one, maybe Balon is next and then Joffrey...

man the stark kids were so close to meet Jon, at least Bran saw him, btw, why didn't Jon recognize Bran's wolf? I mean he should....

Jon does care for Ygritte so I don't think he's disillusioned, maybe he will try to get her later when they attack castle black...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on June 03, 2013, 02:09:01 AM
man i knew this shit was coming but my stomach was turning the entire episode.

THE LORD OF LIGHT WILL HAVE THEM ALL
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tictacbk on June 03, 2013, 03:31:45 AM
I don't think I've ever reacted to an episode of television the way I'm reacting to this one.


I'm not sure if I thought it was amazing or if I want to give up on this show right now...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on June 03, 2013, 12:07:37 PM
that was one of the best episodes of television i have ever seen.

what a time to be alive.

more later.. i'm just gonna be in a coma for a few days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 03, 2013, 05:39:48 PM
This was the first time in a long time where I've genuinely been pissed off at a SHOW, as in a specific unit of 1 hour's worth of image and sound. Not with the production, characters, writing, story, etc...just plain PISSED OFF at the life that surrounded that unit of time spent watching.
Kudos to this show for building up to these sorts of crescendos every season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 03, 2013, 05:54:47 PM
SPOILERS EPISODE 9


http://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PM
more thoughts

right now for Sansa being married with Tyrion isn't so bad for her, now she doesn't have any good option where to go.

please let Arya at some point meet someone from Braavos so she summons Jaqen. valar morghulis.
i don't think the hound will harm her, question is, where will they go? what are his options? Stannis? some Stark bannermen? but how long can they still remain Stark bannermen? the Starks are gone as a power house. the Tullys?

btw, did they show what happened to Blackfish? don't remember seeing him, and he seems like a stand up guy, if he is it's only obvious he's gone by now, also, what about the uncle who married the Frey girl.....

one of two good things that happened is that Bran's storyline finally got interesting..

the other one is more proof of Sam's photographic memory, he reads he files it, just like that.


Edit:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2013, 11:12:24 PM
My impression was that the book is still being split into two seasons, so we will end this season somewhere near the middle of the book.

Just read this: "The Red Wedding takes place in the middle of Martin's third novel in the series, A Storm of Swords."
glad you were right.


guess huge cliffhangers are in order...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on June 05, 2013, 02:56:08 PM
jesus can she get cuter? super spoils: https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PMbtw, did they show what happened to Blackfish? don't remember seeing him, and he seems like a stand up guy

He went to pee outside; they made a point of highlighting that. I would bet that he escaped, since he's smart and probably would have noticed things going down. However, apparently the book makes clear just how many more of Robb's men died. Maybe we'll get a sense of the massacre's scope in the next episode.


Quote from: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PMalso, what about the uncle who married the Frey girl.....

I assume he was killed. I'm sort of more curious about his "wife"... if she had any knowledge of the plot, etc.


Quote from: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PMJust read this: "The Red Wedding takes place in the middle of Martin's third novel in the series, A Storm of Swords."

Strange. I read elsewhere that it's 2/3 through the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on June 05, 2013, 05:36:52 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PMJust read this: "The Red Wedding takes place in the middle of Martin's third novel in the series, A Storm of Swords."

Strange. I read elsewhere that it's 2/3 through the book.

Well, the quote doesn't say it takes place at the halfway point, just "in the middle" of the book, i.e., somewhere between the beginning and the ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 06, 2013, 12:20:15 PM
well, can someone here that has read Storm of Swords tell us where in the book the RW takes place? (im looking at you squints)


was thinking about Arya and besides this

Quote from: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PM
please let Arya at some point meet someone from Braavos so she summons Jaqen. valar morghulis.
i don't think the hound will harm her, question is, where will they go? what are his options? Stannis? some Stark bannermen? but how long can they still remain Stark bannermen? the Starks are gone as a power house. the Tullys?

another possibility since she has nothing else to lose she might want now to go to Braavos and become faceless....ok I cant stop thinking about this show and its possibilities.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
The Red Wedding is at 2/3 of the book. It end page 705. And it's 1128 pages long. The last 1/3 is the best, by the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2013, 12:42:24 AM
Decent episode overall. It's tough after last week, but I think they did the best they could to make it feel somewhat like a finale. Everyone's arriving at their destinations. The white walkers finally got people's attention. And Daenerys is getting really popular. (The crowdsurfing scene worked for me, because her whole "Breaker of Chains" thing always works for me now.)

Looks like Arya and Brann's characters are deepening, and their stories are wide open for expansion now. That should be interesting. Especially Arya... I'm starting to see why the book readers love her character so much.

Ygritte and John appear to have serious relationship problems. But I predict they'll reunite battling the white walkers or something like that.

A few complaints. Tywin's dialogue with Tyrion was too on-the-nose. He doesn't need to say (twice) that he's more powerful than Joffrey, because he's been demonstrating it all season, and he just demonstrated it thirty seconds ago. I feel like "show don't tell" applies here. Also, Joffrey was cartoonish, nearly to the point of being non-threatening, which I could not have fathomed last season. Maybe they just really want our attention to shift to Tywin. And one last thing... I'm now 100% sick of Shae, who is dumb, and is also played by a horrible actress. (Not the best combination.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 11, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
I don't know for future seasons if I will wait to watch all the episodes together. I learned something happened called the Red Wedding. Then Jon Stewart made a joke about it. I am emotionally drained from binge watching a season filled with torture, standard GoT brutality and the Red Wedding. I am glad I have to wait till winter for more episodes. While I love the show and get more excited for it than any other show, I really need the break.

The Red Wedding has to be one of the most fucking fuck fuck fucked things that has happened or will happen on TV. Lady Stark's screaming and that silent stare still haunts me. So much pain in her face. Damn the old gods and the new. Damn them to the seven hells.

Ayra seeing Rob's headless body with the decapitated Dire Wolf's head was heartbreaking. There was so much talk about the violence after season one. The violence has gotten way worse and seems to be getting worse. I can't think of anything I've seen that is more violent than this show.

Is it too much to ask just one good thing to happen to the Stark Girls? Could Tyrion move Sansa out of Kingslanding? Get her away from the Lannisters and Joffery please.

Come on Khaleesii. You are our only hope. I no longer expect a happy ending for anyone on this show but you better raise some serious hell in Westeros.

I love Ygritte. She brings humor which so welcomed on this show which is masochistic to watch. Just the way she says Snow makes me laugh.

I would put my money on Little Finger being the ruler of Westeros when this all ends.

I am terrified TERRIFIED of the Red Woman. When she told Ayra they would meet again, I just had so much dread and it's even worse now after the season finished.

Will anyone be alive when Winter and the white walkers finally arrive?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on June 11, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Quote from: Brando on June 11, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
I love Ygritte. She brings humor which so welcomed on this show which is masochistic to watch.

i don't think you intended this to mean anything beyond the way she keeps repeating her catchphrase all the time, but her final use of it when she catches up to him in ep 10 is just crazy good. the masochistic comment about the show rings especially true in her display of love for him when she shoots three fucking arrows into him! excellent break up scene.

overall i was disappointed with the last episode. maybe because the red wedding was just so world shattering, but i think the problems with the finale go deeper:

- there was way too much exposition for a season closer, it felt like an opener. there was even unnecessary reminders of relationships like it was consciously trying to fill in late comer viewers who tune in only to see season finales of shows. this is a thing. the wrap up (FINALLY) for theon greyjoy's story was a good example of the characters talking WAYY too much about the significance of who is doing what to who and why.. it's like they were just summarizing a whole chunk of the book to someone who hasn't been paying attention.

- the emotional note they were going for in the last scene is just a lazy rehash of the heights they already reached when khaleesi liberated the unsullied. the lead up to the yunkai liberation was also messy and hard to follow, made worse by the awkward waiting for the gates to open. i get that she's OBVIOUSLY the real hero of the story but there's nothing in that last scene that we haven't felt before. we're already onboard, at this point it's just getting annoying.

- arya killing her first dude was the best part.

i think my overall criticism of this finale is that it reflects a badly structured season. obviously the red wedding would have been a good ending because it fundamentally changed the show. leaving it the way they did is just moving the plot along a little bit, it really felt like it just fizzled out. the entire show is a cliffhanger so it's not a good enough excuse to say "well they left us hanging cos we don't know what's gonna happen next.." duh that's the whole point of every episode, not just season finales. a GOOD finale needs to either provide closure -- this did NOT -- or at least burn shit to the ground (so to speak ) so that we can imagine what could possible grow from the ruins.. and they wasted that on the red wedding.

honestly, if THAT is all that happened in 1100 pages then that is a goddamn boring book! we know that more occurred because the book itself had to have an ending beyond the massacre at 2/3rds the way through. my friend who's read the whole thing confirmed that there was indeed at least ONE more major event that was supposed to take place. it's just poor structuring to not include it this season, whatever it is. that's why this felt ultimately unsatisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 11, 2013, 02:44:34 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on June 11, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
obviously the red wedding would have been a good ending because it fundamentally changed the show. leaving it the way they did is just moving the plot along a little bit, it really felt like it just fizzled out.

The show has gotten into a predictable pattern that it needs to stop doing. The first three seasons have all lead up to a huge event that takes place in episode 9 leaving 10 to set up the next season. In season 1 Ned Stark is killed in episode 9. In season 2 it was the huge battle and season 3 it was the red wedding in episode 9. The events and actions themselves are completely unpredictable but going forward I'm going to expect something crazy is happening the 9th episode of every season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 11, 2013, 03:32:36 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on June 11, 2013, 01:57:48 PMhonestly, if THAT is all that happened in 1100 pages then that is a goddamn boring book! we know that more occurred because the book itself had to have an ending beyond the massacre at 2/3rds the way through. my friend who's read the whole thing confirmed that there was indeed at least ONE more major event that was supposed to take place. it's just poor structuring to not include it this season, whatever it is. that's why this felt ultimately unsatisfying.

Season 4 will be mostly drawn from the last 1/3 of the third book.

But apparently it's complicated. GRRM says:

Most of season four will be drawn from the third book, A STORM OF SWORDS, though some material from the fourth and fifth books may be added. Books four and five, remember, take place simultaneously, not sequentially.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/318880.html?thread=17548704#t17548704
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 12, 2013, 02:52:25 AM
I'm okay with the 9th episode being the shocking climax, although I think after 3 seasons it's about time to let that one go.
I'm okay with the 7th episode of "Mad Men" and 18th episode of "Fringe" every season being a format-breaker, just because it lets them get a bit loose. GoT, however, uses their formula to shock and amaze, and if we keep seeing the same magic trick, it won't be as effective in coming seasons.
If they still do it, though, I'll live.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 13, 2013, 12:36:19 PM
agree this felt like the first two episodes of the season, however at least for me way better.

some episodes ago Bran's story felt without purpose, right now it's very interesting and has a lot of potential.

Tywin showing who's boss will always be fun/great, impressive how he managed to justify the red wedding.

poor Sansa cant catch a break, she was kinda happy making schemes with Tyrion and then BOOM.

as usual Arya is the best, she at some point must use that coin so she can meet with Jaqen (if that's what is for) right? please let that happen.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 11, 2013, 03:32:36 PM
Season 4 will be mostly drawn from the last 1/3 of the third book.

But apparently it's complicated. GRRM says:

Most of season four will be drawn from the third book, A STORM OF SWORDS, though some material from the fourth and fifth books may be added. Books four and five, remember, take place simultaneously, not sequentially.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/318880.html?thread=17548704#t17548704

that's kinda good news isn't it? I mean, next season will be as mentioned and maybe the next two will be taken from book 4 and 5, that will give GRRM more time to have book 6 ready...


Quote from: Pubrick on June 11, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
my friend who's read the whole thing confirmed that there was indeed at least ONE more major event that was supposed to take place. it's just poor structuring to not include it this season, whatever it is. that's why this felt ultimately unsatisfying.

it must be a time/money issue, the writers have said that given budget and time limitations they can only do ten episodes a season, if they'd do more it would hurt the quality....anyway, I wonder what that major event is, one or the two leeches left? can't be Balon Greyjoy dying, he's small potatoes, in fact I don't even know why Stannis mentions him, Balon has never (in the show) said he wants to be king, has he? so, it could be very well that little shit Joffrey.....unless GRRM wants us to be depressed forever and kills off one of the little Starks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on June 13, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 13, 2013, 12:36:19 PM
it must be a time/money issue, the writers have said that given budget and time limitations they can only do ten episodes a season, if they'd do more it would hurt the quality....anyway, I wonder what that major event is, one or the two leeches left? can't be Balon Greyjoy dying, he's small potatoes, in fact I don't even know why Stannis mentions him, Balon has never (in the show) said he wants to be king, has he? so, it could be very well that little shit Joffrey.....unless GRRM wants us to be depressed forever and kills off one of the little Starks.

Balon's inclusion was strange in the context of the show, but the Greyjoy's did revolt when Robert was king and are currently occupying land in the North without approval from the throne. He's one of the Five Kings. Maybe Stannis was like, "I've got these leeches lying around, it would be a shame to waste them"

I think wiping out a renegade Pirate kingdom that refuses to negotiate with anyone would be a wise move for anyone on the Iron Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 13, 2013, 02:03:14 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 13, 2013, 12:36:19 PM
that's kinda good news isn't it? I mean, next season will be as mentioned and maybe the next two will be taken from book 4 and 5, that will give GRRM more time to have book 6 ready...

This is an article from Slate. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/06/chart_george_r_r_martin_writes_faster_than_hbo_can_make_episodes_of_game.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/06/chart_george_r_r_martin_writes_faster_than_hbo_can_make_episodes_of_game.html)

Can George R.R. Martin Keep Up With HBO's Game of Thrones? Probably.

Many Game of Thrones fans worry that George R.R. Martin may not be able to finish the remaining two books in his A Song of Ice and Fire series fast enough to keep up with the HBO series. In an appearance on Conan, Martin said the HBO show is "moving like a freight train." But maybe there's nothing to worry about. The above chart uses the average time between Song of Ice and Fire book releases to predict the times Martin will complete the remaining two books and compares this with the expected schedule of the show, which is supposed to run for eight seasons. (The third book was split into two seasons.) If Martin writes as fast as he normally does, he will have a little time to spare. It'll be close, but he'll make it.

This, of course, assumes Martin doesn't take an exceptionally long time with the final two books—and he might. On Conan he described The Winds of Winter as a "fifteen-hundred page monster," which would make it as long as A Dance With Dragons. If the last two take the six years that Martin took to release A Dance with Dragons, then expect the HBO show to go on hiatus or produce an ending based on hints from Martin. And who knows that there won't ultimately be eight or more books? The series was originally supposed to be a trilogy.

Still, there are bigger problems to worry about—for example, hiatus or no hiatus, the teenage actors who play Arya, Bran, and Sansa are growing up much faster than their characters. Then again, maybe their characters will die in horrendous fashion before that becomes too noticeable.

-----

I could see a problem with the two books that have yet to be written. Martin has probably given hints to the producers about the two final books but book 3 had to be split into multiple seasons. Wouldn't you think the final two books be too epic for a single seasons as well?  I might be pessimistic but I see the show ending before the final book or we get an abridged version of the final books. Or as the show continues it gets further and further away from the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tictacbk on June 13, 2013, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 12, 2013, 02:52:25 AM
GoT, however, uses their formula to shock and amaze, and if we keep seeing the same magic trick, it won't be as effective in coming seasons.

I would extend this to the way they've been structuring episodes as well.  It feels like every episode nudges a handful of character's stories forward a bit (or they remained stagnant in Theon's case) and then in the FINAL scene something awesome would happen.  Sometimes that last scene was even with a character we hadn't seen yet that episode (it feels like it often was, but I'm just going by memory here).  This is the first season where I've watched them week by week and maybe that had something to do with it, but I'd like to see them mix it up a bit more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2013, 02:23:41 PM
Quote from: ddiggler on June 13, 2013, 01:47:50 PMBalon's inclusion was strange in the context of the show, but the Greyjoy's did revolt when Robert was king and are currently occupying land in the North without approval from the throne. He's one of the Five Kings. Maybe Stannis was like, "I've got these leeches lying around, it would be a shame to waste them"

I think wiping out a renegade Pirate kingdom that refuses to negotiate with anyone would be a wise move for anyone on the Iron Throne.

Still, he definitely should have included Tywin before Balon Greyjoy.

That device actually kind of annoys me. Why not use 1 or 2 or 3 more leeches to simply get rid of all your major enemies? Did something constrain them to 3 leeches? I feel like we didn't get enough information there.

If this Lord of Light business gets out of control, it could be a real problem for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 13, 2013, 02:28:31 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2013, 02:23:41 PM
Quote from: ddiggler on June 13, 2013, 01:47:50 PMBalon's inclusion was strange in the context of the show, but the Greyjoy's did revolt when Robert was king and are currently occupying land in the North without approval from the throne. He's one of the Five Kings. Maybe Stannis was like, "I've got these leeches lying around, it would be a shame to waste them"

I think wiping out a renegade Pirate kingdom that refuses to negotiate with anyone would be a wise move for anyone on the Iron Throne.

Still, he definitely should have included Tywin before Balon Greyjoy.

That device actually kind of annoys me. Why not use 1 or 2 or 3 more leeches to simply get rid of all your major enemies? Did something constrain them to 3 leeches? I feel like we didn't get enough information there.

If this Lord of Light business gets out of control, it could be a real problem for me.

That leach scene with the Red Woman was an example for Stannis and Joer of the power of Kings Blood. The death of Rob Stark was the proof of the power of Kingsblood and the Red Woman. The Red Woman was then going to kill Gendry and use his blood in some evil way but he escaped. I think she picked those three cause they were most likely to be killed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2013, 04:53:46 PM
Thank you... That's actually a mostly satisfying answer. They were in fact the most likely to be killed. (I guess that further explains the inclusion of Greyjoy.)

I got the impression that sacrificing Gendry would have simply been a generic large sacrifice to advance Stannis's ambitions. But that makes less sense when they introduce the concept of naming names. If I were Stannis, I would be more excited about this precision sacrifice. Start chopping off pieces of Gendry and name them after your objectives. Something like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 13, 2013, 08:17:40 PM
If I remember correctly, at the time of the leeches Joer had convinced Stannis not to kill his nephew. She was using the leeches to show Stannis the power of King's blood. She picked the three most likely to be killed and the ones who's death that would have the biggest impact. The death of the hand to the king isn't as impressive as a king's death. Days of late, hand to the kings haven't lived that long anyway. It was only after the death of Rob Stark did Stannis want to go ahead with killing Gendry.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2013, 04:53:46 PM

I got the impression that sacrificing Gendry would have simply been a generic large sacrifice to advance Stannis's ambitions. But that makes less sense when they introduce the concept of naming names. If I were Stannis, I would be more excited about this precision sacrifice. Start chopping off pieces of Gendry and name them after your objectives. Something like that.
I got that impression as well. With a drop of his blood, she could bring about one of his enemies death. With all his blood, she could advance Stannis' position to become king and get him an army and ships and whatever else he needs to become king cause right now he needs a lot more than a few people dead.

I'm interested in what the Red Woman will think of Khaleesii. The Red Woman worships the God of Light. She worships fire and says death by fire is the purest death. A woman that can't be burned or killed by fire and heat would have to be an Anti-God to the red woman's god of light. I want a showdown between Khaleesii and the Red Woman. The Red Woman tries some fire trick to kill Khaleesii and we know how that will end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 14, 2013, 11:19:07 PM
Quote from: Brando on June 13, 2013, 08:17:40 PM
I'm interested in what the Red Woman will think of Khaleesii. The Red Woman worships the God of Light. She worships fire and says death by fire is the purest death. A woman that can't be burned or killed by fire and heat would have to be an Anti-God to the red woman's god of light. I want a showdown between Khaleesii and the Red Woman. The Red Woman tries some fire trick to kill Khaleesii and we know how that will end.

ha! I thought about that too. interesting theory but, shouldn't a woman that can't be burned is a god and not an anti-god?
also remember what Melisandre said to Davos when he returned to Dragonstone, she blamed him for losing that battle and hence the iron throne (for the time being), said that she could have stopped the wild fire had he not influenced Stannis to left her out.....so, does that mean she can control fire, therefore dragon's fire? also since dragons are magic hers would be enhanced making her really powerful....

but since Stannis will march north now that battle seems unlikely, so, is the war for the crown over for the time being?? or who will dare to fight the Lannisters? it should be Daenerys then right? but she is so far from Westeros that it'll be many many months (years probably?) till she gets to Kingslanding...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2013, 10:41:21 AM
There's also the possibility that Melisandre will turn and worship Daenerys. She certainly turned on a dime when she found out about the white walkers. And Stannis looks pretty pathetic compared to Daenerys... who also has king's blood and a pretty solid claim to the throne.

Side note, the show said as much and I'm sure the books agree, but why are dragons magic? Why can't they just be creatures in this world? What happened in Qarth certainly proved that they're magic, but what magical properties do they have exactly? So far we've just seen them fly around and breathe fire (which seems like something dragons just biologically do). I don't mean to bait for spoilers... please no spoilers...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2013, 01:30:13 PM
I wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 16, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
I thought about if the Red Woman would worship Khaleesii or not. To me I think the Red Woman would be threatened by someone that can't be burned and I don't think she would consider Khaleesii the God of Light.

If I'm wrong, I still don't see the Red Woman abandoning Stannis for Khaleesii. She likes Stannis because she has control over him. Khalessii is wary of anyone dealing in dark magic so I doubt she would want the Red Woman around and definitely would never take her council.

I don't think the Dragons are magic themselves but their presence in the world allows magic. The Warlocks in season two said their magic reappeared or became stronger when the Dragons hatched from their eggs. Magic is more powerful in the presence of the Dragons and the Dragons are more powerful in the presence of Khaleesii. While I don't think they're magic, their presence has a huge effect on the magic world in Westeros. We didn't see the Red Woman until season 2 and after the birth of the Dragons. The Red Woman's dark magic maybe due to the birth of the Dragons. It would make a lot since to have these two woman's rise to power connected in someway as their both connected to fire.

I think the rise of the White Walkers could be seen as a metaphor for a lot of things including Global Warming. The Human race has a long history of ignoring rising threats.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2013, 08:53:05 PM
Very interesting.

The dragons do make sense. I think I'm mostly wondering if they have magic powers that we've yet to see. But yeah, I remember there were shooting stars when the dragons were born, and it was this big sign. I wonder if Daenerys will have this magic-amplifying effect in various places she visits along the way. Maybe it's already having an effect in Westeros... maybe this explains Beric Dondarrion being able to come back to life so many times, which (judging by the Red Woman's reaction) seemed like a new thing. Maybe what's being interpreted as the Lord of Light's power originates from Daenerys! That would be sort of mindblowing.

It's hard to tell what the Red Woman's motives are. We'd expect her to be a power-hungry manipulator etc. etc., but this might be another instance of GRRM undercutting our expectations. Her motive might be pure zealotry. She didn't think twice about switching focus to the white walkers. She might simply be moved by whatever she sees in that fire. I think she could turn on Stannis at any time. For example if she hears about the dragon birth and all of that or witnesses Daenerys doing something similar, how could she not view that, at the very least, as a miracle by the Lord of Light?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 19, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnetdna.tvovermind.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FGoT-7.png&hash=55f3aeada559989eb0d0c6185ba6f7178b35fe6e)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on December 05, 2013, 11:40:19 AM
don't pretend yall didnt see the south park thing
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on December 06, 2013, 04:07:16 PM
I actually didn't out of fear they would spoil the books that haven't been adapted, so, I ask you, is it safe to watch them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on December 06, 2013, 04:24:02 PM
yeah its makes fun of the show, it doesn't really touch on the books outside of rr martin being present
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MacGuffin on January 12, 2014, 08:14:33 PM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pozer on February 12, 2014, 02:57:04 PM
For the funnies..

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MacGuffin on March 10, 2014, 07:09:55 AM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 04, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
spoilers for seasons 1, 2 & 3.


Game of Thrones: Long Story Short

A brief and entertaining history of how the HBO series came to be. Executive Producers and Writers David Benioff and Dan Weiss tell the entertaining and sometimes hard-to-believe journey of how the hugely popular book series are/were made into a smash HBO series. Narrated by Charles Dance, viewers get an insider's look as only the creators could tell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2p9dRl0yYo


has it been said which book are they adapting for S4? It must be what wasn't included from Book 3 for S3, but I wonder if it only covers that or part of Book 4 too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 06, 2014, 11:37:56 PM
That was pretty satisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on April 07, 2014, 06:56:00 AM
Spoilers 4x01

Fun episode. I counted at least four interrupted sex scenes (willing or unwilling) - some kinda nod to those who criticized this aspect of GoT? Definitely improvement, since nakedness in show started "feeling like carpenter making chairs".

Didn't waste much time in episode. Ending was both creepy and rewarding at the same time, mainly thanks to taking pleasure in removing next person from Arya's death list - sign that scene was written and directed from her perspective I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 07, 2014, 10:10:12 AM
SPOILS S4E1

Arya's story was the best, I liked that she killed those guys so calm, like she was tasting a cake with a knife to see if its done, just enough to send them to hell. she and the hound make a great duo.

I wonder if Sansa's encounter with Ser Dontos (the fool) will have any meaning in the future or it just served to remind her that she has done kind things and its better to move on.

I hope Dany's story won't be just about saving/freeing another city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on April 09, 2014, 02:10:21 AM
Arya's been my favorite since season 2, slightly a cousin to Tyrion.  See, Tyrion was the best season 1 IMO (Ned being close behind), but when they decided to plant the seeds to make the Stark daughter a vengeful (yet smart) bad@$$, I was all onboard. Glad to see it coming to fruition in a well-paced manner.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 13, 2014, 11:13:14 PM
HOLY SHIT!!!

SPOILS S4E2

.
.
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.
I cant believe little shit prince is gone, I kind of expected he would but not this soon. I have a big fucking smile on my face, although I probably will miss his shityness...

did that fool set Tyrion up? wait, did that twerp killed Joffrey? where the hell will Sansa go? with Shae maybe?

oh well, this show is the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on April 14, 2014, 06:09:40 AM
Spoilers 4x02

I'll skip elephant in the room part and instead focus on House Bolton. Shaving has to be one of the creepiest scenes in the series so far. There is a reason why they spent much of the opening with Roose and Ramsay. Their cruelty and menace can be contrasted with that of Joffrey. For one they take it to another level - they would win creep of the year award easily in Westeros. They take pleasure in doing despicable things, but at the same time there is some practicality to it compared to Joffrey.

There is something compelling about this family as weird as it sounds - I'm looking forward to seeing more of them. There is part "you pass sentence, you swing sword" to them compared to Lannisters - Roose didn't hold from butchering Robb Stark, where it was plot of Tywin for the most part. There is very little nobility, when it comes to Houses, so maybe Westeros deserves to have Boltons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:55 AM
Episode 3 Spoilers

Carcetti is such a bad actor. He acts like he's being controlled by an alien parasite. Also, whatever he's trying to do with his voice needs to stop.

Budget Eric Bana is unconvincing as Dany's love interest.

Jaime's season 3 redemption arc was pointless then? Looks like the writers thought no one was willing to look past him throwing a kid out a window so they cemented his evil with the rape last episode. Which is a weird thing to do to the character because protecting someone from being raped was what caused him to lose a hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 21, 2014, 11:56:00 AM
SPOILERS

Quote from: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:55 AMJaime's season 3 redemption arc was pointless then? Looks like the writers thought no one was willing to look past him throwing a kid out a window so they cemented his evil with the rape last episode. Which is a weird thing to do to the character because protecting someone from being raped was what caused him to lose a hand.

I looked into this last night, and it turns out the scene is consensual in the book, and the director also intended it to appear consensual in the show.

I just rewatched the scene, and you can tell they tried to make it seem consensual. The way she's gasping etc. We're meant to think that Cersei thinks the location is inappropriate but, in spite of herself, is still into it. The scene ends with Cersei saying "don't" while in closeup she pulls twice at his sleeve, pulling him toward her.

So basically, the director (and editors) dropped the ball on this one, because there is more nonconsent than consent happening there, and it definitely needs to be more clear. They thought a sprinkling of ambiguity would spice things up, but it ended up creating what could be the most misinterpretable scene in the show's history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 21, 2014, 08:38:48 PM
Quote from: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:55 AM
Carcetti is such a bad actor. He acts like he's being controlled by an alien parasite. Also, whatever he's trying to do with his voice needs to stop.

THANK YOU. I've been trying to warn the world (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=10361.msg311216#msg311216) about Aidan Gillen for years (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=124.msg304922#msg304922), and people look at me like I'm crazy.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 21, 2014, 11:56:00 AM
SPOILERS

Quote from: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:55 AMJaime's season 3 redemption arc was pointless then? Looks like the writers thought no one was willing to look past him throwing a kid out a window so they cemented his evil with the rape last episode. Which is a weird thing to do to the character because protecting someone from being raped was what caused him to lose a hand.

I looked into this last night, and it turns out the scene is consensual in the book, and the director also intended it to appear consensual in the show.

I just rewatched the scene, and you can tell they tried to make it seem consensual. The way she's gasping etc. We're meant to think that Cersei thinks the location is inappropriate but, in spite of herself, is still into it. The scene ends with Cersei saying "don't" while in closeup she pulls twice at his sleeve, pulling him toward her.

So basically, the director (and editors) dropped the ball on this one, because there is more nonconsent than consent happening there, and it definitely needs to be more clear. They thought a sprinkling of ambiguity would spice things up, but it ended up creating what could be the most misinterpretable scene in the show's history.

It's the curse of Straw Dogs. It's really hard to filmically convey the difference between rape and implied consent. That said, I don't think they should shy away from it or make excuses for it. Jaime raped her. The show should now deal with the consequences of that action. That's a thousand times more interesting than backpedaling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:41 PM
Quote from: polkablues on May 29, 2011, 01:07:44 PM
I was half-convinced it was going to turn out that his character was secretly an alien from outer space who had just landed a week earlier and took an online course in human behavior, but no, as it turns out, he's just that bad an actor.
Haha, we might be on to something.
At least on this show his problem seems to be being an Irishman trying to sound like an American doing a British accent.

Quote from: polkablues on April 21, 2014, 08:38:48 PM
I don't think they should shy away from it or make excuses for it. Jaime raped her. The show should now deal with the consequences of that action. That's a thousand times more interesting than backpedaling.
The season's already been written and shot. They can't go back and fix what the director or editors fucked up. I think that event will probably never be acknowledged again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on April 21, 2014, 11:33:11 PM
There is something fake about Littlefinger itself as character, so I don't consider acting of Gillen a issue at all. I would go as far as saying it is one of the best casts in the series. His Batman-like voice is unsettling - it sounds wrong, but it is just right for character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Alexandro on April 22, 2014, 01:17:54 AM
yeah, littlefinger acting is no biggie. to be honest I've never noticed anything wrong with it myself. I remember complaints here about the actor in The Wire, never understood that either. Perhaps it's a language thing (which would be weird anyway but who knows).

the rape /not rape thing, wasn't even on my mind either. it clearly was a gray situation, where the action was wrong and they both knew it but went ahead anyway. it's not that hard to portray this ambivalence (the straw dogs reference, case in point) but it's hard to digest it if you expect a clear cut depiction of either acceptance of rejection of raping in a sexual act. no one wants to hear about a sexual act which wasn't 100% something (consensual or not), but this scene depicted that ambivalence.

however, two things. one: how does this affects jamie's redemption or whatever? why would this change anything? more in point: what redemption? he got honorable with his guardian, but that's as far as that went. two: what is raping a woman in this universe? they talk about rape every two episodes, it's been portrayed as a fairly normal thing, a fact of life, something that happens. what would be the supposed consequences for this within this world? the scene seemed to be about liberating a passion both characters had been suppressing for different reasons, finally liberated in the worst setting possible. within the moral rules of this world, incest is worst than raping, and incest besides the deathbed of it's own product is the best portrayal of the character's moral decay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 22, 2014, 10:16:10 AM
Quote from: Alexandro on April 22, 2014, 01:17:54 AM
however, two things. one: how does this affects jamie's redemption or whatever? why would this change anything? more in point: what redemption?
You don't think there was very obvious rehabilitation of his character throughout the 3rd season? His most significant acts in the first two seasons were pretty reprehensible.

Season 1-
Throwing a child out of a window.

Season 2-
Killing his cousin.

In Season 3 he-
-Saves a woman from rape
-reveals that the act he is most despised for was his most heroic and saved thousands of people from being burned to death
-goes back to rescue the woman he previously saved and fights a bear one-handed out of pure altruism

Quote from: Alexandro on April 22, 2014, 01:17:54 AM
two: what is raping a woman in this universe? they talk about rape every two episodes, it's been portrayed as a fairly normal thing, a fact of life, something that happens.
The rape talk started only after a world war erupted, and real world history teaches us how common rape is in those times. I don't recall any mention of rape in season 1. In this very episode it is conspicuously noted that the Wall is populated mostly by murderers, rapers and thieves. Also, the Targaryens freely participated in incest but the king's right of the first night is still banned in Westeros.

I've read the books, and I'm not a big fan of them so I don't care about how the show diverges from them. But the scene in the book is incestuous  sex a feet away from the corpse of their incest child, that's really fucked up. Adding a non-consensual component does not add a lot to it.
But I agree that it's nothing to get hung up on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 22, 2014, 10:50:45 AM
where were all of you last week?????


Quote from: Axolotl on April 22, 2014, 10:16:10 AM
The rape talk started only after a world war erupted, and real world history teaches us how common rape is in those times. I don't recall any mention of rape in season 1.

when the Dothraki took some village Dany saves the women from being taken/raped by them, she has a big confrontation with some Dothraki that challenges Drogo, that wound eventually kills him, also the witch tells Dany that she was already raped three times before she "saved" her.


about Jamie raping Cersei, I think he just reached a point where he couldn't take anymore shit from his family and acted like the Jamie of season 1, since he came back to Kingslanding he's been mocked by Joffrey, ignored by Cersei and relegated by his father, so maybe he just did that to show Cersei she doesn't dictate their relationship and that he couldn't take anymore shit from her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 22, 2014, 11:12:12 AM
Quote from: Fernando on April 22, 2014, 10:50:45 AM
when the Dothraki took some village Dany saves the women from being taken/raped by them, she has a big confrontation with some Dothraki that challenges Drogo, that wound eventually kills him, also the witch tells Dany that she was already raped three times before she "saved" her.
Good point.
I was focused on Westeros mostly. The Dothrakis are a world away and more of a Barbaric horde that is avoided by all civilizations. 

Good call about being relegated by his father. He is the Lannister heir but he chose to be relegated. The main reason he became a kingsguard previously was so he could be close to Cersei. But what the Big Book of Kingsguard scene and his blank page on it was meant to show was that now he's increasingly concerned with his own legacy. So this wasn't the Old Jaime, Old Jaime would never have done what he did this episode, because he loved Cersei. This was new Jaime trying to sever his ties with his previous concerns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 22, 2014, 11:27:43 AM
Right. Like all rape, this had more to do with power than with sex. Jaime was being swept aside, and he reasserted his power over Cercei in a terrible way. And I would absolutely agree that it represents a huge regression in Jaime's "redemption" (that word doesn't feel quite right, but whatever). If anything, it reinforces that his family brings out all the worst parts of him, and he could only ever fully redeem himself by cutting ties with them completely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on April 22, 2014, 07:54:58 PM
I took the scene a little differently. This was Cersei exerting what little power she had left. Here she stands in front of her dead son, her father shitting on his legacy before stealing away her other son. She needs Jaime and takes advantage of the situation to exploit his love for her. She needs him to kill Tyrion, she needs him in her corner. I'm not saying she was begging to be raped right there, but it would be in character for her to realize that she could use the situation to her advantage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tictacbk on April 22, 2014, 10:03:20 PM
AVClub had an article worth reading about all the rape: http://www.avclub.com/r/203499tsd
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 22, 2014, 10:29:32 PM
My response to the chorus of "Why would they change from the way things happened in the books?": George R.R. Martin is not a very good writer. The showrunners and writing staff understand these characters and the craft of storytelling in general at a much higher level than he does. When they make changes, they make them because it enriches the story being told. The books are a template, they are not gospel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 12:49:23 AM
The Dany/Drogo consummation scene is a great example of a change that was perhaps unwise. I'm glad they mentioned it in the article.

I did read that far into the book, and I was shocked when I got to that scene, because I had seen it in the show first as a cold, savage rape on some random windy cliff. To discover it was originally this tender, erotic, consensual love scene set by a warm summer stream or whatever was a bit surprising.

I prefer that version. The fact that Dany in the show grew to love Drogo by learning to accept being raped has been for me one of the big unhelpful question marks on her character and caused me to never like Drogo.

Even if you ignore that and just view it as Dany overcoming an obstacle to grow stronger, or using her sexuality to get ahead, that's pretty cheap as character journeys go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 12:54:41 AM
See, to me, a "tender, erotic, consensual" sex scene featuring a 13-year-old (in the books) girl who has essentially been sold into marriage is vastly more irresponsible than what the show did. The book version is just as much a rape as the show version, but at the least the show recognized the fact.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 01:06:56 AM
But that might be where cultural relativism can apply to this medieval fantasy world. Age of consent norms are obviously a bit shifted.

If you think GRRM is a little messed up for writing it that way, well, probably. He's admitted that his biggest regret is making the characters too young, Daenerys in particular.

In any case, Daenerys definitely experiences it as consensual. It happens in her POV chapter. It is described with flowery, tender language literally from her point of view. Not rape.

Here's the takeaway quote from that article:

Changing a scene from consensual sex to rape is not just a pedantic issue of accuracy—it's a problem with story. The Daenerys Targaryen who falls in love with a man who granted her respect when no one else would is different from the Daenerys Targaryen who fell in love with her rapist. It changes that relationship. (Dany falling in love with Drogo, and calling him her "sun and stars," makes a whole lot more sense now, doesn't it?)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 02:16:50 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 01:06:56 AM
But that might be where cultural relativism can apply to this medieval fantasy world. Age of consent norms are obviously a bit shifted.

Cultural relativism could apply just as easily to the show's version of the scene, too. Hell, even in the real world, marital rape was legally an oxymoron in every one of the United States until the mid-'70s.

My preference for the show's take over the book's is largely based on which one makes any damn sense to me. Dany's behavior tracks more logically with that of a completely inexperienced young girl forced into a situation beyond her control, and Drogo's behavior tracks more logically with that of the leader of a barbarian tribe of which their entire culture is based on raping and pillaging. The idea that she would go into the encounter in any mindset but abject terror, or that he would give the vaguest shit about acquiring consent (or even have apperception of the very concept) before proceeding is nonsensical to me on a character level.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 11:48:17 AM
I think the show could have actually put the effort into developing those characters. Drogo and early Daenerys in the show might make some sense individually, but their romance is 100% nonsensical. You can't get around that. I even remember when Daenerys in the show referred to Drogo as "my sun and stars," because it was patently ridiculous. The fact that she would ever sincerely fall in love with TV show Drogo speaks to delusion or a victimization complex, not naivety.

Quote from: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 02:16:50 AMThe idea that she would go into the encounter in any mindset but abject terror

If you had a romance preceding and motivating the "encounter," you would not expect her to feel abject terror.

Quote from: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 02:16:50 AMor that he would give the vaguest shit about acquiring consent (or even have apperception of the very concept)

Game of Thrones is all about shades of grey and about characters sometimes unexpectedly diverging from type. One should not have an allergic reaction to the idea of a Drogo with character nuance.

Quote from: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 02:16:50 AMCultural relativism could apply just as easily to the show's version of the scene, too. Hell, even in the real world, marital rape was legally an oxymoron in every one of the United States until the mid-'70s.

Since he's legitimately concerned with the experiences of his female characters, GRRM makes a pretty massive distinction between consent (which includes the Daenerys situation) and non-consent (which includes rape and marital rape).

The fact that marital rape is acceptable to many characters in this world means next to nothing, because GRRM is constantly making value judgments that the reader goes along with. There is a world of difference between the marital rape that Sansa almost experiences and the romance that Daenerys has with Drogo. That value judgment is made, and we're invited (rightly) to participate in making these value judgments.

It doesn't make any sense to suggest that cultural relativism covers both. Certainly the average slob in Westeros doesn't care whether Sansa is in love with Joffrey, but why should that infect our value judgments or make us less willing to make moral distinctions?

And that's really the greatest thing about Game of Thrones and this universe. It's not just about experiencing their crushing medieval existence and their various backward ways, it's about exceptional people breaking through it, finding dignity and honor by diverging. That's what draws us to the Starks, and that's obviously what Daenerys is all about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on April 27, 2014, 04:51:52 AM
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSlbTS57.gif&hash=166fe6f7036b8de77849cb9c65889212f592f13a)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 02:34:21 AM
No spoilers this time, just general overview of some aspects. So far I feel that this season is very solid, enjoyed it quite a bit. One thing that is noticeable is amount of tit flashing, which was reduced or at least is less of in your face type - which is improvement I guess, since it did got tiresome at some point. I also like those CGI backdrops, I don't mind computer generated content as much, when it is in background and not foreground. Did they save some cash for VFX by not showing dragons so often? That could be the case I suppose.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 06, 2014, 04:01:18 AM
spoilers


kind of meh episode.
what was arya expecting to accomplish by stabbing the hound directly in his super obvious armor with a needle like sword called needle?

call me dumb but im having a little difficulty following whats going on with sansa.

sword through the mouth was awesome.
more later upon rewatch
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 04:50:37 AM
Spoilers 4x05

Quote from: 03 on May 06, 2014, 04:01:18 AM
call me dumb but im having a little difficulty following whats going on with sansa.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Before forced marriage, Lysa (crazy aunt) and Littlefinger had chit-chat about events that took place in the very first episode of the series. It turns out that Lysa poisoned her husband, then Hand of the King on the orders from Littlefinger (they had sexual relationship). Then she sends a letter to Catelyn informing her about suspecting poisoning of Jon Arryn, which pretty much started feud between Starks and Lannisters, which in turn started whole mess.

Not sure if you noticed, but Littlefinger telling Sansa that she is safe was pretty much a red light. At King's Landing she had some friends or at least people willing to help her: Brienne, Jaime, Tyrion, Varys, Tyrells. Then she was implicated in murder of Joffrey by gift from Littlefinger - necklace that contained poison.

Now she is all alone with crazy aunt that is jealous (she asked her outright if she fucked Littlefinger), her wacky son and Littlefinger that has some murky plans about Sansa. Very few people know that she is in the Vale, meaning that Sansa potentially could be disposed without anyone noticing (moon doors?). With nowhere to run, she if far from being safe.

Was that helpful or unnecessary?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
I actually thought it was a great episode. Michelle MacLaren needs to direct everything... that was my first response.

Sansa was indeed probably safer at King's Landing. However, it's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing, and I actually do think he wants to protect her. Remember how he was with Catelyn? He may be creepy, but he's honorable in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if something happened to Lysa. Clearly Littlefinger has something else planned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 12:31:54 PM
Spoilers 4x05

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
Sansa was indeed probably safer at King's Landing. However, it's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing, and I actually do think he wants to protect her. Remember how he was with Catelyn? He may be creepy, but he's honorable in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if something happened to Lysa. Clearly Littlefinger has something else planned.

Honorable is wrong word in any context regarding Littlefinger. He definitely had something toward Catelyn, in that view Purple Wedding can be a revenge. Still allying himself with Tyrells, when Lannisters aren't getting any richer is just way too convenient.

I wouldn't be surprised if anyone around Littlefinger was killed. He removes obstacles that can't be manipulated to his needs and/or there is some gain for him in doing so. Would be Sansa much safer with just Littlefinger?

He was trying to scare/impress/teach Sansa since her arrival in King's Landing. Does he have honest intention towards her or that she is Stark is more important? He is definitely playing long game, but beyond that I don't know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 06, 2014, 12:45:31 PM
*edit: wrote the post before reading Mel's comment, which I completely agree with*


Littlefinger and honor is like water and oil, they just don't mix...you are right thou that he must have a card under his sleeve and that he really wants to protect Sansa but that thing he has for her isn't semi-paternal, no fucking way.

like Mel already pointed out, he pretty much is responsible for this war, which started with Jon Arryn's death and the infamous Tyrion's dagger...then starks started to die and in that process Catelyn which he 'loved' (obsessed about), maybe that's why he killed Joffrey, to avenge her death? and also an opportunity to make another powerful friend.

-------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o --------------------

If some ppl in Kingslanding believe Tyrion is innocent, then why the hell haven't they wondered who else could have plotted to kill Joffrey? we haven't seen much of Varys, I imagine he would suspect of him if they rule out Tyrion for once and for all or Jaime who believes in his brother, why in the fuck he isn't talking with his father about it.

-------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o --------------------

I hope Dany's journey doesn't turn tedious, I think its great that she wants to go back set free again those ppl, but maybe this time it'll come with a price, maybe she loses one of her dragons, Jorah or someone else...

-------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o --------------------

it made me so happy when Bran-Hodor killed Locke, and I wanted to see Bran with Jon again but I guess that isn't interesting and would have been just for sentimentality sake...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 01:53:47 PM
Spoilers

Quote from: Fernando on May 06, 2014, 12:45:31 PM
If some ppl in Kingslanding believe Tyrion is innocent, then why the hell haven't they wondered who else could have plotted to kill Joffrey? we haven't seen much of Varys, I imagine he would suspect of him if they rule out Tyrion for once and for all or Jaime who believes in his brother, why in the fuck he isn't talking with his father about it.

I presume that Tywin is already working on it. Yet I see how he could still sacrifice Tyrion for the good of family. By blaming Tyrion it becomes a personal matter, otherwise it means that they have powerful enemies and Lannisters could look weak (not immune anymore).

Beside I'm not sure if it would change much if Tywin would find out. Is he smart as he think he is? Olenna initially was outmaneuvered by Tywin in Sansa-Loras marriage plot. Now it seems the other way. Olenna pointed out possible problems with Iron Bank to Tywin, just before Joffrey's death. Was that only by coincidence? I don't think so. Beside Olenna is really interested in good of family in my opinion and she didn't want enter the war initially. That sets her apart from Tywin and his drive for power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2014, 03:54:49 PM
By "honorable" I meant "not rapey." And I do believe that. This is a complex universe; I think Littlefinger can be creepy while also being at least sufficiently protective of Sansa.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2014, 11:40:34 AMit's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing

^ I was trying not to come out and say it, but to me his thing for her feels both paternal and sexual, i.e. incestuous. Again, creepy, but it could still work in her favor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 12, 2014, 02:19:15 AM
NOW THATS SOME GOOD FUCKING GOT
holy crap! one of the best episodes ever?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 12, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
Tyrion's smackdown of the court was truly cathartic.

Loved Dany's scene, from a visual standpoint it was one of the best of the series. This is why Westeros has a small council, you can't micromanage everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2014, 12:44:46 PM
Yup another great one. This season is going quite well.

Spoilers for this episode...

Remind me how this works. Who will be engaged in the "trial by combat" on either side? The Mountain vs. Bronn?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on May 12, 2014, 01:45:34 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2014, 12:44:46 PM
Spoilers for this episode...

Remind me how this works. Who will be engaged in the "trial by combat" on either side? The Mountain vs. Bronn?
We'll find out next week.

Or you can look up the title of episode 8.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 12, 2014, 02:19:25 PM
Spoilers 4x06

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2014, 12:44:46 PM
Remind me how this works. Who will be engaged in the "trial by combat" on either side? The Mountain vs. Bronn?

I'm not sure how it works either. We have seen two trails by combat so far: Tyrion and Hound. In normal condition it is accused versus accuser I think. So it would be Cersei, but she is unfit to fight (same as Lysa Arryn), so she will name champion. Tyrion will probably demand the same.

As who will be named, title of next episode is kinda spoilerish, but we can still theorize. It would be interesting if any of the side named Jaime. Would Tyrion risk his life if Cersei named him, would Tywin risk his life if Tyrion named him?

I'm not sure if choice of "trail by combat" is a surprise to Tywin, since Tyrion did that before. I personally think that he is more angry (deal that included Jaime did go south), than surprised. At least with "Done!" scene, Tywin again proven he plans few moves ahead.

I liked episode very much, still one scene was a bit phony: Yara escaping from Dreadfort (editing/time issues?). Other than that, episode was full of memorable scenes.

One thing that I didn't quite understand is talk between Oberyn and Varys. Best I get about Varys speech about desires and pointing at Iron Throne is some kind of double game. Is it warning about pursuing Mountain and that Oberys should focus on bigger picture? Otherwise words of Varys don't kinda apply to him directly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 14, 2014, 09:38:02 AM
It is such a great moment, I could watch over and over again:



Interesting I didn't notice before that he called Joffrey a bastard in public - I mean I did hear it, but I did forget about implications of doing so in GoT. As a bonus crew of GoT discussing whole scene.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2014, 06:16:20 PM
SPOILERS FOR LAST EP


Tyrion's move might have been ripped from the headlines. Story from 2002:


Court refuses trial by combat

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1416262/Court-refuses-trial-by-combat.html

A court has rejected a 60-year-old man's attempt to invoke the ancient right to trial by combat, rather than pay a £25 fine for a minor motoring offence.

Leon Humphreys remained adamant yesterday that his right to fight a champion nominated by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) was still valid under European human rights legislation. He said it would have been a "reasonable" way to settle the matter.

Magistrates sitting at Bury St Edmunds on Friday had disagreed and instead of accepting his offer to take on a clerk from Swansea with "samurai swords, Ghurka knives or heavy hammers", fined him £200 with £100 costs.

Humphreys, an unemployed mechanic, was taken to court after refusing to pay the original £25 fixed penalty for failing to notify the DVLA that his Suzuki motorcycle was off the road.

After entering a not guilty plea, he threw down his unconventional challenge. Humphreys, from Bury St Edmunds, said: "I was willing to fight a champion put up by the DVLA, but it would have been a fight to the death."


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2014, 02:08:40 AM
I hate to say I told you so... but yeah...

Protecting Sansa, check. Shadings of paternal incest, check.

"You could have been my daughter." A few seconds later: *smooch*... I didn't expect her to be into it, though. Interesting.

Decent episode, but the directing felt lackluster. Also, too much exposition/subtext-as-text in that first scene with Tyrion and Jamie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 19, 2014, 06:56:13 AM
Spoilers 4x07

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2014, 02:08:40 AM
Decent episode, but the directing felt lackluster. Also, too much exposition/subtext-as-text in that first scene with Tyrion and Jamie.

Rhythm of the episode didn't feel right to me either. After some consideration, I think I know the reason. This is basically a filler episode. Judging by the amount of intimate scenes it was cheaper to do than some of the previous episodes. To be honest I don't mind it too much - a payoff was still there.

All scenes with Tyrion make sense to me - it is pretty much a goodbye. I'm not sure how it will end up for him and that works. It is interesting that there was a lot of honesty or at least half-truth saying in this episode.

As for Sansa and Littlefinger it looks like it could turn into Graduate type of relationship or something similar. Confusing to say at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: picolas on May 20, 2014, 02:49:56 PM
spoils 4.7

i loved that episode, but there were some sloppy choices here and there:

- the mountain killing random dudes for no discernible reason. does it matter? not really, but odd.
- arya killing a dude who's just standing there waiting to be killed. it was funny, but i wish he'd been in a corner or something.
- dany's overextended, awkward penis gaze.
- sansa slapping robin felt abrupt and unearned DESPITE the fact that everyone already wants to slap that kid.
- the sansa/littlefinger kiss lasted way too long/felt out of character for sansa. more on that later...
- lysa holding sansa over the moon door.... first off, the way sansa just joined her there with little to no hesitation was nuts. she should have at least tried to keep her distance, especially after lysa grabbed her arm out of nowhere the last time they had a chat. the way lysa actually held her over the door was so odd. she was, like, grabbing her just below the neck. i was never convinced she was in a position to push her out. she should've been holding her whole body or something. carrying her. it detracted from the suspense for me.

i've been reading/comparing the book a bit this season and i want to talk about some differences between this ep and the text. there are ZERO spoilers (because i don't know them) but i thought i should mention that:

lysa reveals the whole jon arryn thing in a moment of weakness/anger before littlefinger pushes her out the moon door, which makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE than how they did it in the show. in the show she says it for no reason in between making out and it gets thrown into the middle of an episode, even though it's one of the biggest twists in the series thus far. lots of people didn't even register how important it was after the episode was over. i don't understand why ben/weis decided to shift it into such a weird place. it would've had so much more impact at the end of this episode, and littlefinger's push would've been WAYYY better motivated. i also prefer how in the book, littlefinger helps sansa build the castle which robin ruins much more intentionally with a giant doll. when littlefinger takes advantage, sansa is much more resolutely like 'ewwwwww! you could be my dad!' and he's like 'but i'm not! haha!'. it's been really interesting watching the season through this lens, but often to the detriment of the series. not sure if i should keep doing it but i love all the details that the show is missing out on or changing for no reason. sometimes they get it right, and i still love the show to death. i liked the new tyrion cell scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 20, 2014, 03:23:52 PM
Spoilers 4x07

Quote from: picolas on May 20, 2014, 02:49:56 PM
lysa reveals the whole jon arryn thing in a moment of weakness/anger before littlefinger pushes her out the moon door, which makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE than how they did it in the show. in the show she says it for no reason in between making out and it gets thrown into the middle of an episode, even though it's one of the biggest twists in the series thus far. lots of people didn't even register how important it was after the episode was over.

Arryn's murder mystery was already reveled two episodes back - it was discussed in thread. Or you mean something else by biggest twist?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: picolas on May 20, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
*book differences 4x07 not book spoilers*

you're misreading. i'm saying the way they revealed it in the show--two episodes back, for no reason--was far less motivated and less impactful than the way they reveal it in the book, which should have been this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2014, 04:18:28 PM
Hmm that does sound better, picolas. As a non-book reader, that reveal still definitely felt smashed in there. Could feel the writers behind it in a way I generally haven't this season.

The imperfectness of the Sansa business, I think, can be attributed to the problematic direction. It's weird because the same guy directed the previous ep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 20, 2014, 04:24:40 PM
i agree picolas. ive read that part of the book, after being told about it, after last episode, not when it happened in the tv series. and it is infinitely more satisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 21, 2014, 01:17:40 PM
Good episode, some thoughts.


I'd have liked a better reaction from Arya when she heard that Joffrey was death, he was probably at the top of her list and yet when that guy mentions Joffrey's gone she doesn't react, and the camera didn't stay long on her either for that matter, anyway a minor complaint.


All three of Tyrion's scenes where top notch, since he was incarcerated I've been worried that he would be killed but now that Oberyn will be his Champion that fear is gone, and I don't have a clue what will happen really (haven't read the 3rd book) but the Viper will beat the Mountain and hope it will be glorious.


About Sansa, that damn kiss felt like it lasted an hour, so JB was right, he wants to protect her and bed her, I hope the latter doesn't happen. This show gets its fx right almost every time, but when Littlefinger throws Lysa through the moon door, the first frame of her falling looked a little fake. And how the hell will Littlefinger get away with that? I mean she has guards and shit, how will he justified that or will he run with Sansa? whatever happens I cant wait.


btw, no game next Sunday.  :yabbse-angry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 21, 2014, 01:45:27 PM
Spoilers 4x07

Quote from: Fernando on May 21, 2014, 01:17:40 PM
I'd have liked a better reaction from Arya when she heard that Joffrey was death, he was probably at the top of her list and yet when that guy mentions Joffrey's gone she doesn't react, and the camera didn't stay long on her either for that matter, anyway a minor complaint.

It was right for where characters is going, at least it seems so. There is so much death around here, that I guess she is getting used to it. Stabbing guy in the heart was almost mechanical - no emotions, just something she had to do.

Quote from: Fernando on May 21, 2014, 01:17:40 PM
About Sansa, that damn kiss felt like it lasted an hour, so JB was right, he wants to protect her and bed her, I hope the latter doesn't happen.

She was abused and played for such a long time, that I wouldn't be so surprised if she felt for a protective figure as creepy as it sounds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 21, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
It's clear from all our various complaints that it was the worst directed episode of the season, maybe in a while actually. Shame.

Quote from: Mel on May 21, 2014, 01:45:27 PMShe was abused and played for such a long time, that I wouldn't be so surprised if she felt for a protective figure as creepy as it sounds.

Yeah, exactly. She also seems to be reacting to his potential sincerity, his appreciation for her mother, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 22, 2014, 08:11:33 PM
Quote from: Mel on May 21, 2014, 01:45:27 PM
Spoilers 4x07

Quote from: Fernando on May 21, 2014, 01:17:40 PM
I'd have liked a better reaction from Arya when she heard that Joffrey was death, he was probably at the top of her list and yet when that guy mentions Joffrey's gone she doesn't react, and the camera didn't stay long on her either for that matter, anyway a minor complaint.

It was right for where characters is going, at least it seems so. There is so much death around here, that I guess she is getting used to it. Stabbing guy in the heart was almost mechanical - no emotions, just something she had to do.


while what you are saying sounds about right, in the specific case of Joffrey I wish we had seen something different, I mean this is the guy that took her father's head, she was right there at Baelor's statue when the little shit yelled ''bring me his head'', fortunately for her Yoren stopped her from going up there; he also was responsible for the killing of Micah and Sansa's wolf, and she had to scare away hers, so even if she's getting used to see and kill ppl, Joffrey being death should be a big fucking deal for her, he's done way too much harm to her and her family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on May 22, 2014, 11:31:32 PM
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEbbS1rk.gif&hash=4cf1f71c97b43d3a3a43797b6f6577481a8e54d3)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 29, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy251%2Ffbv%2FREDVIPERvsTHEMOUNTAIN_zpsa368052c.jpg&hash=460a8c9ff38a02eda515338e6ba1a020bec919ed)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2014, 11:09:18 PM
SPOILS S4E8


Quote from: Fernando on May 21, 2014, 01:17:40 PM
I don't have a clue what will happen really (haven't read the 3rd book) but the Viper will beat the Mountain and hope it will be glorious.

fuuuuuuuuuck, I feel like someone punched me in the gut.

at least I wasn't wrong that I didn't have a clue. how will Tyrion get away of this one? I hope he does but it doesn't look like it will happen, will Jamie save him? how? this damn show, the red viper was my fave new character. fuck!


Sansa looked like Maleficent in that last scene, and apparently she's finally manipulating littlefinger or so I like to think so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 02, 2014, 12:48:57 AM
SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

Yeah, that was definitely high on the list of GoT gut punches. The sound of Oberyn's skull exploding is so loud in the mix, too. Gawd.

Part of me loves how that played out, because it was so powerful, and because it illustrated quite well how revenge was his downfall. On the other hand, it feels like the whole "kill your favorite characters" thing is getting very close to crossing a line into tiresomeness and even predictability.

I'm guessing Jaime frees Tyrion but people believe he escaped, and Tyrion becomes an exile of some kind, embarking on a long journey, eventually to finally be reunited with Sansa! Yeah except for that last part.

When this show started, I heard from several book readers that Sansa was one of the show's least interesting characters, especially compared to her sister Arya. But I'm finding the opposite to be true. Arya is entertaining, but a little one note and kind of cold-blooded. And she has a fraction of Sansa's complexity... certainly now. I loved Sansa's testimony scene, even if I could see it coming from a mile away. I wonder what Baelish thinks of her now... is he falling for her, or is he beginning to respect her as an equal? It wasn't clear from the various "well, isn't she interesting" looks he gave her this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 02, 2014, 05:49:52 AM
SPOILERS


SPOILERS


I read the books and knew what would happen to Oberyn. But still, the Red Viper is so fucking dumb! I was tense. The same way I believed Mufassa might not die this time in The Lion King, I believed Oberyn might kill the fucking Mountain. Just kill the dude, Oberyn, you arrogant prick.

Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the book, and was glad that, for once, the show showed how she's learned to survived. She's not the naive girl of the first season. She's tough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on June 02, 2014, 07:34:17 AM
Spoilers 4x08

According to honest trailer for GoT: "Actors on The Walking Dead have better job security". Still this was traumatizing.

My question is what happens if both champions die? Mountain took spear to the guts and we have seen characters dying from lesser wounds already. Doesn't look good for Tyrion anyway.

Arya laughing - good indication how events so far affected her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on June 02, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
spoilers ep8


i don't care if i'm out of line here or who disagrees with me: that episode sucked and the show is starting to.

that fight was fucking ridiculous for numerous reasons:
- oberyn talking the whole time was just silly.
- the mountain taking that long to kill him was ridiculous. i don't know if any of you know anything about sword fighting, but he is supposed to be this legendary fighter and he's stumbling around like an idiot with that sword, he looked like a giant baby.
- he got the mountain down, he put a fucking spear in his chest. HE WON THE FIGHT. if he wasn't dead YET, he still fucking won. if they are adhering to these weird medieval laws, you'd think there'd be MORE strictness than gray area, as has been seen so far. it's like, if you do something, no matter what the variables are, the consequences follow. so why in the hell did he get his opponent down, and from that point on it was up in the air what the verdict was??!? just because in a reflexive dying moment he happened to grab the stupid guy, that negates the fact that he was bested and fatally wounded by his opponent? call me stupid, but that makes no sense to me and the whole scene was bullshit. oberyn looked like a weird gay idiot, and before this he was pretty cool.


- as others mentioned before: killing off characters is boring and predictable and ridiculous now. especially the fact that how they do it is the same every time. "you think everythings cool? NO ITS NOT" i mean, when south park makes a freaking trilogy based solely on your plot device, its no longer a stereotype, it's a joke.

- bringing up all this shit from the past and tying up forgotten loose ends may work really well in the books, but in a tv show like this it's just confusing. jora getting cut loose for some shit that happened seasons ago that wasn't a big deal anymore and hasn't been addressed regularly? who cares. "now your name is bolton!" i thought it was already because i don't give a shit. they're juggling waaayy too many chainsaws at this point.

- sansa's scene was brilliant, i honestly loved how it played out.

- tyrions beetle story was beautiful.

- theon's performance, if you can call it that, was pretty dumb and weird. how could a dude that's been mentally and physically tormented and brainwashed just snap into a role and say things like that convincingly? or even just say them? he's been barely able to string a sentence together without sounding like a caveman, and he forgot his own fucking sister? so out of nowhere he can pretend to be his old self flawlessly? ok, i know he breaks down a little near the end, but still!!

still a huge fan but jesus what a disaster...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 02, 2014, 06:08:19 PM
Quote from: 03spoilers ep8


i don't care if i'm out of line here or who disagrees with me: that episode sucked and the show is starting to.

that fight was fucking ridiculous for numerous reasons:
- oberyn talking the whole time was just silly.
- the mountain taking that long to kill him was ridiculous. i don't know if any of you know anything about sword fighting, but he is supposed to be this legendary fighter and he's stumbling around like an idiot with that sword, he looked like a giant baby.
- he got the mountain down, he put a fucking spear in his chest. HE WON THE FIGHT. if he wasn't dead YET, he still fucking won. if they are adhering to these weird medieval laws, you'd think there'd be MORE strictness than gray area, as has been seen so far. it's like, if you do something, no matter what the variables are, the consequences follow. so why in the hell did he get his opponent down, and from that point on it was up in the air what the verdict was??!? just because in a reflexive dying moment he happened to grab the stupid guy, that negates the fact that he was bested and fatally wounded by his opponent? call me stupid, but that makes no sense to me and the whole scene was bullshit. oberyn looked like a weird gay idiot, and before this he was pretty cool.


- as others mentioned before: killing off characters is boring and predictable and ridiculous now. especially the fact that how they do it is the same every time. "you think everythings cool? NO ITS NOT" i mean, when south park makes a freaking trilogy based solely on your plot device, its no longer a stereotype, it's a joke.

- bringing up all this shit from the past and tying up forgotten loose ends may work really well in the books, but in a tv show like this it's just confusing. jora getting cut loose for some shit that happened seasons ago that wasn't a big deal anymore and hasn't been addressed regularly? who cares. "now your name is bolton!" i thought it was already because i don't give a shit. they're juggling waaayy too many chainsaws at this point.

- sansa's scene was brilliant, i honestly loved how it played out.

- tyrions beetle story was beautiful.

- theon's performance, if you can call it that, was pretty dumb and weird. how could a dude that's been mentally and physically tormented and brainwashed just snap into a role and say things like that convincingly? or even just say them? he's been barely able to string a sentence together without sounding like a caveman, and he forgot his own fucking sister? so out of nowhere he can pretend to be his old self flawlessly? ok, i know he breaks down a little near the end, but still!!

still a huge fan but jesus what a disaster...


SPOILERS


I agree with you 03, they didn't do justice to the scene. It should not have been a cliffhanger; at this point, it's just ridiculous, looks like a gimmick. In the books, Oberyn doesn't have the charm he has in the show. He's an arrogant prick. It doesn't surprise me that he thinks he's untouchable. He wants vengeance. And he's a moron. The fact is: please, show runners, stop ending your episodes with someone dying.

Do we talk about the Unsullied watching naked ladies? No? Yeah. I don't understand what happened there. 50 Shades of Unsullied, maybe?

But the Sansa part was great.

I love GoT, it has perfect moments; I love all the scenes between Jaime and Tyrion. It's intimate and yet feels epic, in my opinion. But Daenerys bores me, and they shouldn't parody themselves. Oberyn's death in itself is not a big moment, the consequences are. That's what I want to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on June 03, 2014, 01:59:17 AM
Not a whole lot to add, but that in a fight to the death, I'm pretty sure victory is contingent on your opponent actually being dead. So I'm not sure why 03 thinks Oberyn won the fight by knocking the Mountain down and stabbing him, when ensuing events demonstrated that he wasn't, you know, dead yet. There's no grey area there; dead or not dead is as binary as you can get.

I don't know, it was a perfectly fine, normal episode. The fight was fine, everything was fine. Arya breaking into a laugh when they get to the Vail and are told that her aunt is dead was one of the best moments of the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on June 03, 2014, 04:42:45 AM
Spoilers

Quote from: 03 on June 02, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
that fight was fucking ridiculous for numerous reasons:
- the mountain taking that long to kill him was ridiculous. i don't know if any of you know anything about sword fighting, but he is supposed to be this legendary fighter and he's stumbling around like an idiot with that sword, he looked like a giant baby.

I'm no specialist by any means then it comes to the sword fighting, but as far I understand almost no film/series is depicting a realistic medieval warfare. Fighting in a state of the art armor included a shield and a short, light sword, where thrusts were aimed against the groin/neck/armpit. Sword against sword is just way more cinematic. I don't mind it in series with dragons and white walkers.

I enjoyed fight between the Viper and the Mountain for what is worth.

QuoteThe fact is: please, show runners, stop ending your episodes with someone dying.

I don't mind it to be honest. As far I see it, show tries to make every death count - quite the opposite of meaningless CSI-style new victim every week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on June 03, 2014, 10:17:06 AM
I was actually surprised by how quickly the fight was over, I was expecting it to be more drawn out. The choreography was well done, I don't expect sword fighting to be realistic in this show, it's a fantasy series. I have to give props to the production value. I've been rewatching the first season with a friend of mine and it just feels so cheap compared to what the show is doing now. Sansa's walk down the steps looked beautiful.

Looking forward to Neil Marshall's return next week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Alexandro on June 03, 2014, 10:56:19 AM
Yes, the production values in season 1 were completely worthless compared to what they have now.

I loved the swordfight, the way it escalated quickly and was done before you could process it. I was actually thinking about how exciting these tv shows can get and how movies need to think some shit up to enhance or push the experience somewhere else. Because these shows are doing everything hollywood movies do and doing it better (fargo too made me think of this).

Now yes, the guy dies, but if course our excitement / fear is not for him entirely. We know Tyrion is in deep shit now and the cliffhanger is what will happen to him.

Anyway, I love this fucking show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2014, 11:12:38 AM
I think we can stop marking spoilers in our posts, because they are all spoilers. I'll update the thread title and we can be done with it.

I don't think it's problematic that Oberyn did so well in the fight. For two reasons:

- His fighting style seemed to precisely exploit the Mountain's weaknesses.
- It was necessary to increase the impact of the ending.

And no, Oberyn did not win. It was almost worse than being smashed by the Mountain right away. The way Oberyn died was an absolute humiliation.

New prediction: Varys helps Tyrion escape. I would bet on it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 06, 2014, 07:05:44 PM
This should have been posted earlier. It's great. Massive spoilers obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 07, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
 yeah, I saw that :(

I usually re-watch the episodes but this time I couldn't see again Oberyin's death, it crushed me harder than any death yet, not even the Red Wedding which was devastating and far more cruel. Naively I was so sure he would make it, mainly because I felt his story was building into something greater, didn't expect he would kill any Lannisters but at least that he'd avenge his sister while saving Tyrion, how wrong I was...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2014, 11:12:38 AM
New prediction: Varys helps Tyrion escape. I would bet on it.

I like your bet but why do you think that? the obvious choice is Jamie but this show isn't that, which btw Tyrion should be doomed since he has no apparent escape so then, is it logical he is going to make it? maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

I hope Tyrion somehow lives and escapes, this time though, I'm lowering my expectations.

Wonder how Oberyin's fate will be taken in Dorne, Tywin wanted them to get back into the fold an be again the seven kingdoms, now that's fucked, someone someday must make them pay for this.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2014, 01:16:33 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 07, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2014, 11:12:38 AM
New prediction: Varys helps Tyrion escape. I would bet on it.

I like your bet but why do you think that? the obvious choice is Jamie but this show isn't that, which btw Tyrion should be doomed since he has no apparent escape so then, is it logical he is going to make it? maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

Jamie helping Tyrion escape is somehow too obvious, plus eyes will be on him. People already know he wants to save his brother.

Varys's testimony in the trial is what makes me think he will have some role in saving Tyrion. Don't remember the exact wording, but it vaguely sounded like he still wanted to honor what Tyrion did to save King's Landing. He likes Tyrion.

Jamie telling Tyrion "I'm the only friend you have left" etc. also strikes me as a hint that there is someone else, i.e. Varys. I can't think of another candidate.

Tyrion is going to survive for now. I think that much we can take for granted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 08, 2014, 02:34:38 PM
when is maclaren directing another episode? i want tonight to blow my socks off. last week i just felt like i had more socks put on. or wet socks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2014, 11:48:34 PM
Definitely going to rewatch this one in the next few days. What a technical achievement that was. Even the giants and mammoths were entirely convincing.

I still do not understand why King's Landing has offered zero help to defend the wall. I even remember Tywin saying that an attack on the wall might be imminent. That was a number of episodes ago. So he's not ignorant about it, not too late, and not helpless either. He has an army. The Tyrells have an army. So what's the deal? Can anyone enlighten me? I don't think I missed anything that would explain this.

Ygritte is problematic. I was glad when she died. I mean, we've seen her butchering random civilians in raids without a twinge of guilt. Also, she really didn't have enough time to decide what to do when she inevitably came across Jon Snow? Their encounter and that romantic moment... it was all a bit silly. And I might have literally cringed when she forced her catch phrase out one last time with her dying breath. She was really trying to make that a thing.

POTENTIAL BOOK SPOILERS:

Based on something I just read, it sounds like the battle in the books does in fact last multiple nights. I wonder if they've done some condensing. Surely we won't get more episodes early next season to cover the rest of the battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 09, 2014, 02:50:47 AM
ask and ye shall recieve. man alive, what an episode.

bestshit:

- they teased us with the amazing giants quite some time ago but it was entirely worth the wait.
- in addition to giants we had their equally amazing wooly mammoths. i literally felt like a child when i saw the first glimpse; the overall appearance and vibe of the creatures is storybook nostalgic, seriously. and they were insanely more amazing than the dragons ever were.
- every fight scene was brutal no matter how brief the shot
- long tracking shot was COCONUTS
- giants
- we have had solely action based episodes before that have not had similar emotional impact as some gutpunch episodes, but this one tied it together beautifully with doing mostly kickass action scenes that made me completely off guard for ygrittes death, call me crazy, but i didnt see it coming. and you know what? i want to blame the shows direction for that. not my ignorance. i was so absorbed, it made me fall in love with the show all over again, waiting to see if she would shoot snow..
-giants

notsobestshit:
- i HATE the samwell with chick and baby subplot. i love samwell by himself. i feel the only reason they continue the boring back and forth emotional tension between them only serves to build payoff when something kills them probaly.
- the defense strategies in this show usually make no fucking sense.
i mean, jesus christ, this is based super loosely on a time in history where warfare was taken very seriously, and these seasoned guys are all like 'yeah lets drop the barrels of flaming shit at the very last minute after we've let them kill a lot of us.' and the random switching of commandment? like ok now you do it and thats an order! just a little awkward.


overall one of the best episodes of the series due to visual wizardry and nicely executed plot points.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 09, 2014, 05:40:15 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2014, 11:48:34 PM

I still do not understand why King's Landing has offered zero help to defend the wall. I even remember Tywin saying that an attack on the wall might be imminent. That was a number of episodes ago. So he's not ignorant about it, not too late, and not helpless either. He has an army. The Tyrells have an army. So what's the deal? Can anyone enlighten me? I don't think I missed anything that would explain this.



That's why I thought this episode was boring (yeah, I like giants, but I don't care about 50 minutes of giants and arrows and characters i don't care about), the show erased everything that was interesting about the Wall or this battle. Everything. I was just thinking "Oh, they have money. Good for them."; I think this is the best season of GoT yet, I wanted an episode of season 4 not the resolution of a storyline they should have dealt with in season 3.

I think the finale next week (who should be great, and I don't see how it won't be) will be clear about who cares about the Wall outside the "CROWS AND LOVE" universe of Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 09, 2014, 02:48:10 PM
Quote from: 03 on June 09, 2014, 02:50:47 AM
- i HATE the samwell with chick and baby subplot. i love samwell by himself. i feel the only reason they continue the boring back and forth emotional tension between them only serves to build payoff when something kills them probaly.

I'm still in the middle of watching the episode, but I just had to point out that I sincerely hope Sam's "I promise you I won't die" was a deliberate Team America reference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: squints on June 10, 2014, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: polkablues on June 09, 2014, 02:48:10 PM
I'm still in the middle of watching the episode, but I just had to point out that I sincerely hope Sam's "I promise you I won't die" was a deliberate Team America reference.

That's exactly the first thing i thought of too.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2014, 01:10:47 PM
Apparently the finale is 66 minutes.

Also, Benioff & Weiss are hyperbolically proud of the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 10, 2014, 02:22:15 PM
Submitted without comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4oQzTGTc_g
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 11, 2014, 06:21:47 AM
Spoilers 4x09

Just wanted to share this reaction to the ending of "The Mountain and the Viper" episode. Some context: guy on the left is familiar with the books, guy in the red shirt is the one that hypes GoT the most.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2014, 12:58:15 AM
Well that certainly lived up to the hype. Easily one of the best episodes. Maybe the best episode in which no major protagonists shockingly die. (I count Tywin as an antagonist.)

Speaking of which. I once accidentally read this spoiler: "Tywin dies on the throne." Lawl. I was expecting him to become king eventually, but this... yes, I prefer this.

The episode was 65 minutes long, and I wanted at least another hour. When Arya's seafaring theme swelled, I was like noooo don't end! Just a marvelous experience.

------

I rewatched last week's episode, because it seemed eminently rewatchable, but for whatever reason it didn't age well. The action scenes held up, but not much else did. The dialogue was either badly written or badly acted or both, which on the first watch must have been completely obscured by generalized "new GoT" excitement. Jon Snow was still fine, but anything not understated — including Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon — seemed delivered in a shrill stage-like style. Very strange, but it's there.

I imagine certain other characters would suffer similarly upon rewatch, especially those with non-British accents, because those barely hold up sometimes on the initial watch. Thinking of Oberon's girlfriend (and maybe even Oberon himself?), and most of the supporting characters around Daenerys.

I wonder how much this is happening, really. The show's weakness, as I've always said (and which is kind of obvious), is how heavily it depends on shocking plot turns for its power. Last week's episode upon rewatch felt almost inert without that "anything can happen" feeling that we're all so addicted to now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2014, 01:09:36 AM
I forgot to congratulate myself on the Varys prediction. It was kind of a slam dunk though. You could almost see him winking at Tyrion during his testimony.

Also, it felt like he had to compete with Littlefinger yet again, who seemed to specialize in helping people escape.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 17, 2014, 12:05:06 AM
I quite liked the 9th episode, mostly because it finally delivered some much needed movement on the Wall. I think it might be partially because I like Neil Marshall and think he should be doing more movies. The show is not used to feeling that kinetic and it felt cartoonish in parts, but it needed some catharsis to deliver on all that buildup and tension, which it delivered.

As for the finale, "Safety? Where the fuck's that?" should be the show's new tagline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2014, 01:09:36 AM
I forgot to congratulate myself on the Varys prediction. It was kind of a slam dunk though. You could almost see him winking at Tyrion during his testimony.

Also, it felt like he had to compete with Littlefinger yet again, who seemed to specialize in helping people escape.

Quote from: Fernando on June 07, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

ahem...anyway, I'm glad Tyrion lives but too bad Tywin had to go, he was a great character, not necessarily evil, he was just practical and did what had to be done.

Can't wait to see Tyrion's adventures with Varys, that should be sweet, it wasn't mentioned where they are going, was it?

so there's a vacuum of power at Kingslanding, I guess Cersei will rule but now she will have to worry about the debt to the Iron Bank...


the best part for me was Jon Snow with Mance and the arrival of Stannis.
I love when ppl recognize Ned's honor, again next season should be great seeing Melisandre, Stannis, Mance and Jon together.

this season the one that didn't do much was Khaleesi, she just took another city but we have seen that before...

I thought that coin Arya had was meant for the appearance of Jaqen, anyway she at Braavos will be great.

this episode only missed Sansa...


oh, Bran finally arrived at the tree, what the hell is he going to do now, at some point he has to deliver otherwise his story will be kind of useless, the same can be applied to Arya and Sansa and Dany's like JB mentioned awhile ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 17, 2014, 06:43:46 AM
Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
ahem...anyway, I'm glad Tyrion lives but too bad Tywin had to go, he was a great character, not necessarily evil, he was just practical and did what had to be done.

I wonder if his role in "Going Postal" as Lord Vetinari had something to do with securing role as Tywin:



Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
so there's a vacuum of power at Kingslanding, I guess Cersei will rule but now she will have to worry about the debt to the Iron Bank...

I'm not sure if Tyrells will let her reign for long. Only good news for her: wedding with Loras if probably off. Guess we will see more of Olenna and she proven capable of matching Tywin in plotting. Littlefiger has picked right horse again by allying himself with Tyrells. I'm not sure what this means for North: Frey is in trouble, what about Boltons?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 11:59:06 AM
Mel, I totally agree. Lannisters are down, Tyrells are up. Cersei should be easily outsmarted by them. Olenna certainly outmaneuvered Tywin a few times. Can Cersei really prevent her son's marriage? You'd think the Tyrells would eventually get explicit about the money they would withhold, etc.

Olenna for hand of the king! Jaime seems too obvious, right? Who else might it be?

Anyway... If they can find an excuse for Jaime to go on some kind of mission or adventure, the Lannister siblings will be split up across Westeros after the death of their father, just like the Starks. How beautiful would that be?

Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
Quote from: Fernando on June 07, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

ahem...

Okay yeah, I may have been first on that but you were definitely more accurate. I really thought Jaime helping would have been too obvious. Shouldn't he have been elsewhere specifically establishing an alibi, since he's going to be suspect number one? Surely Varys could have done that alone. Just give him the key.

Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AMCan't wait to see Tyrion's adventures with Varys, that should be sweet

Yeah. This show is amazing at creating great pairings. There have been so many. Apparently many of those are divergences from the books, too. They even did Tywin and Arya, which was completely new content.

Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AMthis season the one that didn't do much was Khaleesi, she just took another city but we have seen that before...

Yeah, that's been problematic for me. She's kind of boring right now. Her story is now about how complicated it is to rule after you've conquered, and that's interesting, but only to an extent. Daenerys is just not that inspiring right now. Probably just one of those low points on her hero's journey, though.

Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AMoh, Bran finally arrived at the tree, what the hell is he going to do now, at some point he has to deliver otherwise his story will be kind of useless

I really liked that, actually. Tree nymph wizard literally blew my mind. This is the power of withholding the supernatural. When it finally arrives, it's amazing. (Lost certainly had that figured out.)

Oh I found this. I guess it's old but it's something I never followed up on. Title of the video is all you need to know:

Olenna Tyrell removes poison vial from Sansas necklace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2cFNECwSmg)

(Looks like embedding is disabled for that video.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 12:20:07 PM
Also this:

https://imgur.com/gallery/0EQr6
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 17, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGY7YxbG.gif&hash=bd0dd17bc75bf5a6a1a834971ca545d1ae3abbaf)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 05:40:47 PM
People are making a pretty bold prediction about Bran "flying." It sounds accurate, so stop reading if you don't want to know. Bran has not yet flown in the books, so this is not a book spoiler. So anyway, people are predicting that Bran will eventually "warg" with a dragon, as he does with Hodor or his wolf, presumably in connection with fighting the white walkers. Seems to me like that's in fact what's being set up: Daenerys and one or more of the Starks coming together to defeat the white walkers. Whether they also take King's Landing is up for grabs, because 2 visions (Daenerys's and Bran's I think) have shown the throne room snow-covered and abandoned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 17, 2014, 05:57:30 PM
The show eliminated what, I think, was amazing about the Tyrion breakdown...

It's not a spoiler - the show totally forgot this background - but if you don't want to know what is, let's say it's one.

SPOILERS

Tyrion had a wife before Sansa, called Tysha; he talks about it in season 1.

Wikipedia says:

QuoteTyrion met Tysha on a lonely road, where she was being accosted by some men. Tyrion's brother, Jaime Lannister, drove off the men while Tyrion took care of her. She was a crofter's daughter, orphaned when her father died of an illness. Tyrion fell in love with her and married her, even though he was only thirteen years old.
When Lord Tywin Lannister found out, he had Jaime tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore who had been paid to make Tyrion a man. Tywin then had her passed around among his guards to have sex with her; for each guard, he gave her a silver. To drive the lesson home, Tywin forced his son to be the last man, for whom Tysha was paid a gold coin, because Lannisters were worth more.

When Jaime frees Tyrion, he says to him that Tysha wasn't a whore, that she truly loved Tyrion. Jaime lied. Tyrion is furious, he says to Jaime that Cersei, basically, is fucking everybody in King's Landing. It doesn't end with a hug...

QuoteDuring his escape, he came to his father's rooms. Tyrion demanded his father tell him what had happened to Tysha. Tywin did not remember, simply stating that she went "wherever whores go". Tyrion slew him with a crossbow and escaped.

GoT is often brutal, it loves its violence; here, they had emotional brutally and they avoided it with a hug and Jaime fucking Cersei. I often separate the books and the show, but I don't understand why they would avoid this important psychological development...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 06:42:03 PM
As a non book reader, I think I agree with that decision, actually. You summarized the story very well, and even that was emotionally affecting, but I still feel like it would have been such a break in the momentum, and such an obscure callback for this show that would require so much explanation. It sounds much better suited to the page.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Brando on June 17, 2014, 09:11:47 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 11:59:06 AM
Olenna for hand of the king! Jaime seems too obvious, right? Who else might it be?

A man with one hand serving as hand of the king is the kind of irony GoT loves. I don't think Jamie would want the position. The last three hands of the king have been murdered.

EDIT: The last 3 of the 4 hands of the king have been murdered while the fourth survived an assignation.

Cersei would never let a Tyrell in such an influential position. Cersei already mentioned her worry about the Tyrell's influence on her son. Olenna could easily outwit Cersei but Joffrey got his evilness from his mother. I wouldn't underestimate Cersei.

The king's council is in a sad state of affairs. A Tyrell fool, Cersei and that old fool are all that is left.

But the Lannister's are over. I see Stannis as a better challenge than the Tyrells. The Tyrells have no claim to the throne. Margaery still needs to wed the new king and give birth to an heir before the Tyrells could really challenge. Even if Margaery is able to marry and get pregnant we know the new king is not a Baratheon. Tywin's power and influence silenced any dissent to the legitimacy of the rightful heir but now that he's gone I'm sure people will be more willing to consider it.

The Tyrells are also really smart. They might see the writing on the wall and not want to align themselves with the falling Lannisters. The Lannister's mines are no longer producing. The Lannister's owe huge amounts of money to the iron bank. When talking about the iron bank, was the only time i saw Tywin intimidated.  But this is GoT and no one would give up a shot at the iron throne. Helping the Lannisters could put the Tyrells in a powerful position. Cersei on the other hand is type who would burn down her own house rather than give up any power.

Quote from: Mel on June 17, 2014, 06:43:46 AM
Littlefiger has picked right horse again by allying himself with Tyrells. I'm not sure what this means for North: Frey is in trouble, what about Boltons?

I said after last season that Little Finger will end up ruling Westeros. He set the entire war in motion and continues to be two moves ahead of everyone. With Sansa at his side and his power over Robin, he now has a grasp on two of the seven kingdoms. 

Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
I thought that coin Arya had was meant for the appearance of Jaqen, anyway she at Braavos will be great.

He told her to show the coin to any man from Braavos and say these words and that man will take her to Braavos. Or take her to see him. Braavos is also my guess to where Tyrion is heading. But it might not be a good guess cause he would be hiding out in the same place his family owes money. 

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
I like your train of thought there. Given the burden that the Lannisters are and will continue to be, wouldn't it be smartest for the Tyrells to simply welcome Stannis to King's Landing, and for Margaery to marry him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Brando on June 17, 2014, 09:56:39 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
I like your train of thought there. Given the burden that the Lannisters are and will continue to be, wouldn't it be smartest for the Tyrells to simply welcome Stannis to King's Landing, and for Margaery to marry him?

Stannis has a wife. He is also the most stubborn, egotistical and imperious of all the ones after the throne. The Tyrells first backed Stannis' brother. They then backed the Lannisters. He probably sees them as traitors and wouldn't want to align with them. The only way he would do it is if the Red Woman told him to cause Margaery would finally give him an heir which his current wife hasn't done.

The Tyrells have done so much there is no way they pack up their shit and go home. The Lannisters are still their best shot at the throne. Tywin's death will resonate in the same way as Robert Baratheon's death did with multiple people grasping for power. The Tyrells are in the best position to grab it. So maybe this is the rise of the Tyrells. The Tyrells with the backing of the throne might be able to withstand the burden the Lannsiters.

The wild card is the Iron Bank. They've already put money backing Stannis so does that mean they're done with the Lannisters and the current king even if the Tyrells help out?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 17, 2014, 10:18:33 PM
No way would the Tyrells want Stannis. Tommen is easily manipulated, Stannis needed the hottest red witch in the world to turn. Margaery is no Melisandre.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 10:33:21 PM
Good points. Let's throw out that theory then. I'm just wondering what I would do as a Tyrell right now. How exactly do they deal with Cersei, if threatening her financially isn't going to be enough? Didn't she just say she would burn the Lannister's house down to protect her son?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 18, 2014, 12:01:57 AM
Cersei is definitely onto Margaery's manipulation of Tommen, but she's losing her own grip on him. With Tywin out of the picture, Margaery has Tommen right where she wants him. Pubescent boners are a powerful thing.

I suppose a lot is riding on who becomes the new Hand. If it's a Tyrell, Cersei is fucked. I doubt Jaime will want it. Littlefinger and Varys have left the building. Pycelle looks like he's close to being out the door too, with Cersei favoring Maester Frankenstein. It's basically Cersei vs. the Tyrells now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 18, 2014, 01:07:31 AM
Quote from: diggler on June 18, 2014, 12:01:57 AMMargaery has Tommen right where she wants him. Pubescent boners are a powerful thing.

Their last scene was already weird enough, and you just had to put it like that. Gross. So how does the timing of the marriage work with him, do they have to find blood on his sheets?

Quote from: diggler on June 18, 2014, 12:01:57 AMI suppose a lot is riding on who becomes the new Hand. If it's a Tyrell, Cersei is fucked. I doubt Jaime will want it. Littlefinger and Varys have left the building. Pycelle looks like he's close to being out the door too, with Cersei favoring Maester Frankenstein. It's basically Cersei vs. the Tyrells now.

Yeah it's very strange. King's Landing is so empty right now, and I have no clue who has actual power over the various things. Much depends on Tommen — how manipulable he is, and by whom — and we've known him for about 6 minutes of screen time, so really, who knows.

What if Jaime actually steps up? It's conceivable. He's been looking at his literal page in that literal history book an awful lot lately.

Much of his dourness has been about his father trying to ship him off, while he wants to stay in King's Landing. So he could actually be into this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 18, 2014, 03:56:58 AM
Wonderful discussion, I'll skip quoting, since there is so much.

I don't see Tyrell and Stannis is same bed for so many reasons. First of all Littlefinger is part of equation. I think Stannis has different plan:



It is very likely he will try to secure North first in my opinion. He takes his debts more seriously than anyone else - avenging Starks?

Olenna seems very pragmatic, didn't she say something like "Mace got us into this mess, now we need to play a ball. We should've stayed in Highgarden". She really cares for a good of family, compared to Tywin. I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrells step down, if this means safety for them. For the same reasons, I don't think Tyrells will make any hasty moves against Cersei, tolerating her as long as possible.

What about Martell or Ironborns? Daenerys will get some brake I think, since everyone else will be occupied with different things. Still I could be wrong there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 18, 2014, 11:55:12 AM
Martells are a wild card. Oberyn said the Prince was too ill to come to the wedding, which leads me to believe we'll meet him at some point. The Martells already hate the Lannisters, I'm sure Oberyn's death won't help that. Tywin was working on an alliance with them, which is most certainly out the window now.

My guess is that Stannis's next stop is Winterfell. Stannis vs. Roose is something I'd like to see. I thought it was an interesting detail that the Wildlings were just trying to get to safety and the Night's Watch was only in their way. Perhaps Mance joins forces with Stannis? Stannis seems pretty ignorant of the White Walker threat, that'll change his perspective on the Wall battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Brando on June 18, 2014, 03:26:01 PM
Quote from: diggler on June 18, 2014, 11:55:12 AM
Perhaps Mance joins forces with Stannis? Stannis seems pretty ignorant of the White Walker threat, that'll change his perspective on the Wall battle.

Stannis might not have a choice with Mance. Mance has the biggest army by far of anyone in Westeros. Stannis will need them to fight the white walkers. If he leaves them north of the wall to die, that's 100,000 more white walkers to fight. And he has giants that ride mammoths. Do giants turn into white walkers when they die?

Mance is the only one that can control his army which puts him in a powerful position. Mance also doesn't kneel to any man. It'll have to be a partnership between Mance and Stannis. The threat of the white walkers is the only thing that could force these two men into a partnership.

The wall is still the best protection against the white walkers. Mance's army is more than enough to reinforce all of the nightwatch's empty castles.

Quote from: diggler on June 18, 2014, 11:55:12 AM
My guess is that Stannis's next stop is Winterfell.

Quote from: Mel on June 18, 2014, 03:56:58 AM
It is very likely he will try to secure North first in my opinion. He takes his debts more seriously than anyone else - avenging Starks?

The video posted by Mel is a great predictor of Stannis' next move. He went straight for the iron throne and got crushed at blackwater. He's changed his strategy to win the throne by saving Westeros. The biggest threat is the white walkers. I think Stannis stays in the north to prepare for battle with the white walkers. I think he'll either ask or force the houses of the north to help him.

Quote from: Mel on June 18, 2014, 03:56:58 AM
What about Martell or Ironborns? Daenerys will get some brake I think, since everyone else will be occupied with different things. Still I could be wrong there.

Ironborns seem to be completely useless once on land and yet they seem to be obsessed with it. I don't see how they can really play an important role.

Daenerys is occupied herself. She's created a kingdom and now she has to rule it. Her dragon is going to cause problems. It be a great twist if she ends up fighting or killing her dragon that was supposed to win her the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if Daenerys stops her pursuit of the iron throne and continues to expand her new kingdom.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 18, 2014, 03:34:18 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
Can't wait to see Tyrion's adventures with Varys, that should be sweet, it wasn't mentioned where they are going, was it?

I'll answer my own question. Jaime only mentions that there's a galley waiting at the bay bound for the free cities, doesn't says which one...


Great discussion guys.

The Lannisters.
I agree with JB that Jaime should be the one to step up in Kingslanding, Cersei is queen and will rule via Tommen but who are her true friends? The small council right now is tiny, she despises Pycell so he probably is out, that fool Tyrell is useless, Oberyn RIP, Tywin RIP, like Mel mentioned Varys and Littlepervert are out too, so it has to be Jaime who becomes hand, unless I'm forgetting someone there's no one else. Although she will be pretty pissed at Jaime for helping Tyrion escape...who murdered his dad in the process, the bright side of that is that now nobody wants that marriage.

Maybe Bolton is the one friend left for the Lannisters but I have a feeling that he won't go to Kingslanding, when he gave his name to Ramsey he made a point that the north was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined and now the north was his, so he definitely (maybe) will clash with Stannis.


Quote from: Mel on June 18, 2014, 03:56:58 AM
What about Martell or Ironborns? Daenerys will get some brake I think, since everyone else will be occupied with different things. Still I could be wrong there.

Before Tywin's demise my theory was that the Martell's would go to avenge Oberyn, now I'm not sure although maybe they will want Cersei.

The Ironborns are fucked, I think Reek is going to off his dad or try to, if not, both Bolton or Stannis will see to that, right now they don't seem like a real threat, also Bolton mentioned that most of the Ironborn had fled the north and more will likely follow.

I think Daenerys journey to westeros is still far away.


Quote from: diggler on June 18, 2014, 11:55:12 AM
My guess is that Stannis's next stop is Winterfell. Stannis vs. Roose is something I'd like to see. I thought it was an interesting detail that the Wildlings were just trying to get to safety and the Night's Watch was only in their way. Perhaps Mance joins forces with Stannis? Stannis seems pretty ignorant of the White Walker threat, that'll change his perspective on the Wall battle.

Agree, Stannis could form an alliance with the wildings and battle Bolton to secure the north, there are so many possibilities here. Sometimes this part of the story seemed dull, now could be one of the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: picolas on June 18, 2014, 09:47:58 PM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 22, 2014, 09:30:21 AM
Quote from: Fernando on June 18, 2014, 03:34:18 PM
Maybe Bolton is the one friend left for the Lannisters but I have a feeling that he won't go to Kingslanding, when he gave his name to Ramsey he made a point that the north was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined and now the north was his, so he definitely (maybe) will clash with Stannis.

I don't think Roose Bolton is anyone's friend. He just made a deal with Tywin: head of Stark for the North. He probably would still support Starks if Robb was listening to his advises, but that didn't happen and chance of winning the war was more unlikely with every day passing by.

I asked about Frey, since I see this couldn't be next endeavor of Littlefinger. Petyr isn't a POV character in the books, but he had so far huge impact on current political situation. I don't see him sitting idle in the Vale without conspiring. He was risen by Tullies, was love with one Tully, married another. Revenge aspect in going after Frey is there. He is also Lord of Harrenhal, he has brains, some money, allies, but he lacks an army - something that Cersei pointed out at one time. Is thinking that he could convince Robin to go after Frey in the name of saving uncle or so far fetched?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: MacGuffin on July 16, 2014, 07:46:41 AM
'Game of Thrones' season 5 directors chosen
by EW

Who will command the Game of Thrones production army next season?

There are five directors, each charged with helming two episodes each in season 5. Back in the mix this year: David Nutter, who directed the incredible "The Rains of Castamere" episode (aka The Red Wedding) in season 3. Nutter returns to helm next year's ever-crucial ninth episode and the season 5 finale.

Absent from the list this round: Alex Graves, who directed four episodes last season, and Neil Marshall, who scored an Emmy nomination last week for his work on the ninth episode of season 4, "The Watchers on The Wall" (aka The Battle of Castle Black). Also taking a break this season are showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss, who previously directed an episode each. In fact, aside from Nutter, all the directors next season are new to the show. Below is the list of Thrones directors for season 5, exclusively on EW.com:

Episodes 501 and 502: Michael Slovis (episodes of AMC's Breaking Bad, NBC's Law & Order: SVU)
Episodes 503 and 504: Mark Mylod (episodes of Showtime's Shameless and HBO's Entourage)
Episodes 505 and 506: Jeremy Podeswa (episodes of HBO's Boardwalk Empire and Showtime's The Tudors)
Episodes 507 and 508: Miguel Sapochnik (episodes of Fox's House and Fringe)
Episodes 509 and 510: David Nutter (known as "the pilot whisperer" for his track record in getting pilots picked up to series; Nutter directed four epiosdes of Thrones, plus many other shows)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on July 25, 2014, 05:40:44 PM
hahaha aww man. how incredibly heartwarming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on January 30, 2015, 12:52:15 PM
There's a leaked trailer from the IMAX showings, obviously its quality is shitty, BUT for the purists I'll advice to not watch it, it seems too spoilerful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XBzwQpbbU
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on January 30, 2015, 03:50:50 PM
Quote from: Fernando on January 30, 2015, 12:52:15 PM
There's a leaked trailer from the IMAX showings, obviously its quality is shitty, BUT for the purists I'll advice to not watch it, it seems too spoilerful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XBzwQpbbU

That's the most disturbing version of David Bowie's "Heroes" I've ever heard, and I've seen Moulin Rouge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2015, 05:07:42 PM
How did people like the premiere?

I thought it was a very good table-setting episode. I'm most excited about Tyrion and Varys meeting up with Daenerys. That can't be anything but satisfying. It also sort of tips their hand in terms of where things are going on a macro level. We have two out of three heroes meeting up (Tyrion and Daenerys), leaving only the third, Jon Snow, who should also have an interest in Daenerys's success.

DEEP SPECULATION AND POSSIBLE BOOK SPOILERS, HONESTLY NOT SURE

This hasn't happened in the books from what I understand, but a Jon Snow / Daenerys / Tyrion triad is probably the most likely setup for the climax of this whole story. This is supported by the fact that Jon Snow and Tyrion are very likely both half Targaryen, via Tyrion's real father, and Jon's actual parentage (which is complicated). There are fan theories for both, supported by pretty convincing evidence. The chosen ones are always half-breeds, aren't they?

What's more, they might be directly related. I find it pretty clever that in the beginning we thought this story was about the Stark family, but it might end up being about the Targaryen family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 14, 2015, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2015, 05:07:42 PM
How did people like the premiere?

I thought it was a very good table-setting episode. I'm most excited about Tyrion and Varys meeting up with Daenerys.

Just to clarify, haven't read books 3-4-5 so everything I say is a supposition.

agree, that meeting should be sweet but I have a feeling that won't happen this season (if ever), if in fact that happens I wonder how well received they would be, given that Varys tipped off Robert Baratheon via Jora Mormont about her pregnancy and that it was the child of Drogo, maybe they don't know that much.

on the other hand, both of them can provide a lot of insight about the status who's who in Kingslanding.

Last season the one thing that bothered me was that NO ONE questioned who killed Joffrey, everyone except Cersei knew he didn't do it but never cared to find out who, I wonder if Varys ever suspected Baelish, if soomeone doesnt' trust that guy is him, but we never saw a single conversation about it...


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2015, 05:07:42 PM
That can't be anything but satisfying. It also sort of tips their hand in terms of where things are going on a macro level. We have two out of three heroes meeting up (Tyrion and Daenerys), leaving only the third, Jon Snow, who should also have an interest in Daenerys's success.

Just three heroes? You are leaving out Arya and even Sansa.

I have no clue what would be the end game for Arya, right now she will be at Braavos and I guess at some point she will meet again with Jaqen and then? is she going to be faceless? if so, she has to go back and avenge all that did her wrong. This journey of Arya better pays off at some point or else I will feel cheated.

And Sansa, right now that's also a big question mark for me, Baelish is ''protecting'' her and all but that creep is the detonator for pretty much everything that has happened, did Tyrion never told her that he betrayed his father? and now with aunt Lysa death will she connect the dots at some point? I thought that she being death meant nobody would ever know what he did, but I saw again that episode where she wants to push Sansa through the moon door and she tells her: ''My father, my husband, my sister, they all stood between us and now they're all death'', so she has to connect the dots right? I think she's already playing him but to what end?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2015, 07:59:00 PM
I forgot to mention, it's argued in the Rotten Tomatoes podcast recap that Mance Rayder actually made the correct pragmatic decision by not "bending the knee." Highly recommend listening to that.

I don't count Arya or Sansa as heroes in the way that Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion are. They have a sense of honor and nobility that Arya and Sansa haven't developed or simply don't possess.

Arya is a wildcard and a bit of a scoundrel. Certainly she has her list, but any sense of justice therein is kind of spoiled by her taste for blood.

Sansa has long been one of my favorite characters, and I get the sense that she's a better character in the show than she is in the books. (And the reverse may be true for Arya.) But as she's grown up, she has gone from trauma to peril to more peril to (basically) a permanent state of peril. She is in adaptation mode. Her origin story includes the loss of honor (and her wolf along with it, symbolically), and now under Littlefinger's wing she is learning to cloak and deceive. Sansa seems compromised for the time being. I would welcome a heroic turn, but I don't see her being central in the way Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon surely will be.

I think the character I actually left out is Bran. I'm not sure he'll be a fully rich heroic character, but he's certainly going to warg him some dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 10:55:31 AM
So, I don't know, I feel less confident about my theory today. Anytime something feels fated to happen, it's subverted. That is probably the major problem with the series. Endless subversion gets tiresome. Endless suffering gets tiresome. If at least a few of these threads do not come to fruition in a marginally positive way, the whole thing will have been profoundly unsatisfying. At a certain point, characters need to stop being stomped on and start doing something that resembles fulfilling destiny, or what sense of gravitas will even be left? For example, if Daenerys does not conquer Westeros or at least defeat the white walkers with her dragons, what was the point of her character?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 01:05:04 PM
NONSPECIFIC SEMI-SPOILER FOR THIS SEASON

I just read a show spoiler for something that is not in the books but almost certainly will be in the show, that I am definitely not okay with and will probably turn lots of people against the show. I frankly can't see any good reason for it, and it goes too far in exactly the way I was dreading. How the show will recover from it, I honestly have no idea. Anyway, enjoy the season!

If you really want to read this spoiler, you can do so here (https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/32kmri/spoilers_all_sansa_in_season_5/), and we can discuss it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on April 15, 2015, 01:27:13 PM
that actually is in the books, but it's a different character. and i agree, i don't think they should do it, but according to the trailer, it looks like they will in some form or another.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 01:35:18 PM
For it to be THIS character is beyond ridiculous. Especially now. I'm too angry right now to even elaborate. It's just self-evident that this is a bad idea, and I can't imagine how it could ever be justified as a storytelling decision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 15, 2015, 01:52:58 PM
haven't read that spoiler but now I'm nervous...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 10:55:31 AM
So, I don't know, I feel less confident about my theory today. Anytime something feels fated to happen, it's subverted. That is probably the major problem with the series. Endless subversion gets tiresome. Endless suffering gets tiresome. If at least a few of these threads do not come to fruition in a marginally positive way, the whole thing will have been profoundly unsatisfying. At a certain point, characters need to stop being stomped on and start doing something that resembles fulfilling destiny, or what sense of gravitas will even be left? For example, if Daenerys does not conquer Westeros or at least defeat the white walkers with her dragons, what was the point of her character?

Completely agree, and as I've said I feel the same about Arya, her ambitions are not as grand as Daenerys but the road she is taking seems to lead to a big pay off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on April 15, 2015, 01:54:38 PM
POSSIBLE VAGUE SPOILERS FOR THIS SEASON

i agree totally. the only thing i can come up with is that they want to keep their shock status and they want a new red weddingesque episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 28, 2015, 12:24:45 AM
SPOILS S05E03.

Good episode.

Jon
that was a great chat between Jon and Davos and Stannis for that matter, I wonder if what Davos said to him will have an impact of sorts in the future, it feels like it will but with this show who the hell knows...


Sansa
can't believe I'm saying this but right now being with little finger no longer seems that awful, that marriage cant happen right? something or someone should prevent that...

Little Finger vs Bolton
now that's a match of deceivers, probably one of them wont get out alive.

Tyrion
and we were looking forward to his adventures with Varys and even thinking about (if for a brief moment) the meeting with Daenerys, read some ppl have doubts which queen Jorah is referring but to me it's clear he means Cersei.

Brienne
that was a great story, being saved by Renly, and I liked that pod puts the good word for Tyrion, being the only really good Lannister, although Jaime has redeemed himself IMO.

Margaery vs Cersei
I think Margaery is playing with fire, no way Cersei will just stand by while she steals his cub and mocks her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 17, 2015, 10:14:26 PM
is no one ever gonna comment here???

SPOILS S05E06

ok, that one really hurt.

it was brutal, Sansa cant catch a break.
until the very last moment thought something had to happen, and it did , the most horrible thing, I have the worst feeling about her, and little finger , wtf is he doing?


meanwhile, at kingslanding...the Tyrells vs Cersei war is on, cant imagine Lady Oleanna wiil just sit this one out, Cersei is probablu making a huge mistake...maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2015, 01:09:10 AM
Yep. This is the predicted scene that I was dreading. My thoughts still apply:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 01:05:04 PMI just read a show spoiler for something that is not in the books but almost certainly will be in the show, that I am definitely not okay with and will probably turn lots of people against the show. I frankly can't see any good reason for it, and it goes too far in exactly the way I was dreading. How the show will recover from it, I honestly have no idea. Anyway, enjoy the season!

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 01:35:18 PMFor it to be THIS character is beyond ridiculous. Especially now. I'm too angry right now to even elaborate. It's just self-evident that this is a bad idea, and I can't imagine how it could ever be justified as a storytelling decision.

I have to say, the showrunners seem to be quite enamored of rape. They have now given us 3 big ol' juicy rapes that were not in the books: the rape of Daenerys, the rape of Cersei, and now the rape of Sansa. Two is a pattern, and it was talked about at the time, but three is an obsession.

In the books, the consummation of Daenerys's marriage (in her POV chapter) was written as a romantic scene, consensual, and even briefly erotic (and to be clear, erotic for her, since it is literally from her point of view), adorned with flowery language, and set near a peaceful forest stream if I remember correctly. (And I think I do remember, because of how awkward it was to hear the stilted British audiobook narrator say "her wetness.") In the TV show, they decided Daenerys should be raped instead, on a dark wind-swept cliff. They decided that instead of starting the love story before the marriage, they should try to have it after she's raped, when she learns to accept things and transform her sexual servitude into pseudo-consent. (Turn that rape upside-down, girl!) I suppose it was supposed to develop her character, except this departure only had ill effects on the storytelling. It ended up scrambling this character (Daenerys) into a sufferer of stockholm syndrome, a woman who against all odds fell in love with her rapist (a truly inspiring tale for wives in arranged marriages, one could argue). Anytime thereafter when she said "my sun and stars," fondly recalling her true love Khal Drogo, we could only be quietly baffled by the disconnect.

Likewise, Jaime and Cersei's sex scene next to their son's corpse was changed from consensual to, at the very least, a rapey grey area. Cersei's actual spoken dialogue from the book version is not just consensual, she commands it: "'Hurry,' she was whispering now, 'quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.'" In the show, we were given something significantly more ambiguous, which reintroduces that theme from TV Daenerys: non-consent becoming consent. It was more shocking with rape, so how could they resist?

And that's the problem with Sansa's rape. It feels like it's a piece on the board, moved to the square that says "big shocking scene that everyone will be talking about." But moreover, they wanted a new Red Wedding type scene that book readers could be shocked by too. This rape happens to a different character in the books, and it's much more gruesome. So they get to have it all ways, really: shock the newbies, and shock the book readers perhaps even more, since they carry the memories of the book scene. Have they damaged Sansa's character far worse than they damaged Daenerys? Quite possibly. Good luck recovering from this one, Game of Thrones. You've crossed a line.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 18, 2015, 11:37:29 PM
agree.

making something shocking for the sake of it is not how this show should be.

and I don't mind changes of some events that don't exist in the book, as long as the main characters stay on the path of the book.

like the relationship of Arya and Tywin, that was a great addition that never happens in the book, in fact Tywin as a character didn't do much in the first two books, that great scene of him and Jaime when he lectures him about the legacy of his family name from the first season also never happened.


so, knowing this shit that happened to Sansa never happened has made me consider to read her entire story, if the season ends and she still is Ramsey's new play toy, I will spoil myself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2015, 12:38:15 AM
If we're talking predictions, I think Sansa will be rescued quite soon. She has Brienne, all the random northerners, and Theon on her side.

Then, inevitably, the writers will use Sansa's rape as her character motivation going forward. What a shame it would be, and what a waste, turning Sansa, who was becoming quite complex and sort of great, into a one-dimensional character. Movies and TV are already so littered with the "rape as motivation" trope in its various forms (rape as motivation for revenge, rape as character-defining backstory, etc.). They almost can't avoid this route with Sansa now.

Also, logistically, they may not have the screen time to properly deal with Sansa's trauma, even if they possess that capability. I would give them the benefit of the doubt here, but they haven't exactly established credibility in this department.

. . .

Side note: How dumb and awkward was that entire confrontation scene in Dorne? It actually looked like the actors were hanging out in costumes rehearsing an alternate version. All three groups happened to converge on Myrcella at the same time?

Since one of the viper ladies had her blade to Myrcella's throat, why didn't she just kill her as the guards converged on them? Or hold her hostage with, you know, the blade to her throat?

Okay Myrcella, we were totally going to abduct you and then maybe kill you or whatever, but now seeing that there's a battle going on and this is definitely our very last chance to off you, we're actually going to just kind of grab you and pull you over here and hold you for a sec. Then, I dunno, maybe we'll escape with you, or maybe you'll be saved. Either way, we just do what we do. #YOLO

(Or did I miss something?)

And why, seeing that attempted abduction, did Jaime just stand in place and keep fighting?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 19, 2015, 01:38:59 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2015, 12:38:15 AM
Side note: How dumb and awkward was that entire confrontation scene in Dorne? It actually looked like the actors were hanging out in costumes rehearsing an alternate version. All three groups happened to converge on Myrcella at the same time?

Since one of the viper ladies had her blade to Myrcella's throat, why didn't she just kill her as the guards converged on them? Or hold her hostage with, you know, the blade to her throat?

Okay Myrcella, we were totally going to abduct you and then maybe kill you or whatever, but now seeing that there's a battle going on and this is definitely our very last chance to off you, we're actually going to just kind of grab you and pull you over here and hold you for a sec. Then, I dunno, maybe we'll escape with you, or maybe you'll be saved. Either way, we just do what we do. #YOLO

(Or did I miss something?)

And why, seeing that attempted abduction, did Jaime just stand in place and keep fighting?

The scenes in Dorne all feel like a higher-budget episode of Xena: Warrior Princess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 19, 2015, 10:30:01 PM
You mean you guys didn't think they needed another scene to show how horrible Ramsey is?  Feel like there hasn't been much of that in the series...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on May 19, 2015, 11:55:27 PM
that scene was not very shocking or iconic of the series, i feel like media is trying to make it that.



spoilers had they included the dogs howeverend spoilers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 20, 2015, 01:49:42 AM
It is being blown wildly out of proportion, yes. Sensitivity is one thing, a crucial thing even, but when you start to separate out segments of the human experience and award them protected class status, you're doing a disservice to both the breadth of human experience and to the art of storytelling. At the very, very, VERY least, give the show a chance to get where it's going with it before deciding it crossed some uncrossable line.

The fact that so many people are using the "it wasn't in the books" line of attack is particularly telling. The implication being that if it were a minor side character in the same situation (as in the books), it would be more acceptable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2015, 11:04:23 AM
Quote from: polkablues on May 20, 2015, 01:49:42 AMThe fact that so many people are using the "it wasn't in the books" line of attack is particularly telling. The implication being that if it were a minor side character in the same situation (as in the books), it would be more acceptable.

Except it absolutely would be.

I don't object to rape being used in the story. I don't object to emotionally horrifying or crazy gruesome scenes. The Red Wedding and Oberyn's death both basically delighted me. What I object to is that the TV show has decided that most of the principal female players must experience rape to more fully develop their characters.

It's becoming a distasteful storytelling shortcut, and applying it to Sansa seems egregious at this point. It feels especially gross with her because she is a really convenient candidate for a shocking storyline. The audience has a special emotional attachment to her, and she has already suffered so much, such that grinding her even further into the dirt and inflicting even deeper trauma has a particular impact that's just too hard to resist.

What has been equally problematic is what comes after the rapes. Daenerys falls in love. Cersei and Jaime continue as if it didn't happen. Sansa will, I don't know, be rescued? Continue to make incongruously moronic decisions and be swept wherever the plot finds her useful? These stories are different in the books for a reason; they actually make sense. I bring up the book version not because I have any attachment, but because at least GRRM knew how to tell a coherent story.

I will hold out hope that the show can salvage this character, but here's the thing. Certain things have to be done to get her back on track in the larger narrative. As that re-convergence eventually happens, her motivation, her agency, and arguably the soul of her character will have already been replaced with whatever she gets out of this dumb rape story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PM
(https://xixax.com/jb/sansa.jpg)


"He already hurts me every night. All day I'm locked in this room, and every night he comes. It can't be any worse."

"It can. It can always be worse."

^ Also an apt description of the show's handling of Sansa's story.

Last week, worst case scenario, I imagined that Sansa would escape this week, or that at least some measure of revenge would be carried out. But they decided to prolong and intensify Sansa's suffering. Imprisoned by day, beaten and raped every night. (The bruises were a nice touch.)

This is probably even more distasteful than last week. But I understand, Sansa is such a ripe target for twisting the audience's emotions, how could you not take advantage of that?

And to what possible end?

- To expand on Sansa's sufferingness? That's been a feature of her character so long, and it's now flooding out every other aspect of her to the extent that she's becoming a joke.

- To convince us just how evil Ramsay is? It goes without saying, that task was accomplished long ago. Everything he does now feels redundant. He's also becoming a joke.

- We get some kind of brutally righteous vengeance, made more satisfying by the duration and intensity of Sansa's suffering. Okay, I guess revenge is fun, but sacrificing Sansa's character doesn't seem worth it.

- Sansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

I literally cannot think of a way this can be redeemed. I think I'm pretty much numb to it now, though. I've stopped caring about Sansa's character. Part of me wants to just wait until this idiocy is over, consider it non-canon, and pretend Sansa is picking up where she left off.

. . .

The rest of the episode was quite good. Tyrion meeting Daenerys was the most thrilling moment for me; I can't think of a more interesting or satisfying way for them to meet. This is the storyline where I need to know what happens next ASAP.

Cersei's imprisonment was great of course too, watching that dread slowly come over her. The way it then played out was laughably unrealistic, but dramatic nonetheless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2015, 11:14:32 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PM
Last week, worst case scenario, I imagined that Sansa would escape this week, or that at least some measure of revenge would be carried out. But they decided to prolong and intensify Sansa's suffering. Imprisoned by day, beaten and raped every night. (The bruises were a nice touch.)

Never crossed my mind that Sansa would get something positive this soon, she's Ramsey's new play thing and he won't let go, however, you did notice that she took something with her right? I didn't see what it was but I think it sounded like a little piece of metal, I think that could be used before this season ends, on Ramsey I hope...

here:
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy251%2Ffbv%2Fmetal_zpsex74tigy.png&hash=7c706f9190cd76ae8e8c9664a4971c3bf2835750)

One minor positive thing happened when Ramsey (accidentally?) told her that Jon was now the lord commander, I saw in her face a little hope, which was then crushed when she saw the old lady flayed.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PM
This is probably even more distasteful than last week. But I understand, Sansa is such a ripe target for twisting the audience's emotions, how could you not take advantage of that?

And to what possible end?

- To expand on Sansa's sufferingness? That's been a feature of her character so long, and it's now flooding out every other aspect of her to the extent that she's becoming a joke.

- To convince us just how evil Ramsay is? It goes without saying, that task was accomplished long ago. Everything he does now feels redundant. He's also becoming a joke.

- We get some kind of brutally righteous vengeance, made more satisfying by the duration and intensity of Sansa's suffering. Okay, I guess revenge is fun, but sacrificing Sansa's character doesn't seem worth it.

- Sansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

I literally cannot think of a way this can be redeemed. I think I'm pretty much numb to it now, though. I've stopped caring about Sansa's character. Part of me wants to just wait until this idiocy is over, consider it non-canon, and pretend Sansa is picking up where she left off.

Since this isn't even in the books I guess we will eventually see Sana's revenge in a way (and that pay off should be huge), but will it be in this season? And, like you well put, will her suffering serve the story in a satisfying way? This is why if her ordeal continuous I'll give in and read her story in the books.

Now, will reek grow some balls and help Sansa? that doesn't seem likely does it? and her candle signal is fucked, so even if she or reek could go to the tower Ramsey knows about it, but...given the kind of psycho Ramsey is maybe he will lit it himself just for fun and Brienne will come to the rescue which could be her downfall or his, also let's not forget that if she sees Stannis banners that can too come in play..and all three parties involved will clash. So many possibilities there.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PM
The rest of the episode was quite good. Tyrion meeting Daenerys was the most thrilling moment for me; I can't think of a more interesting or satisfying way for them to meet. This is the storyline where I need to know what happens next ASAP.

Best episode of the season so far, that's a meeting didn't think would happen so soon, I'm glad, next week should be sweet.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PM
Cersei's imprisonment was great of course too, watching that dread slowly come over her. The way it then played out was laughably unrealistic, but dramatic nonetheless.

agree, first, why wasn't she guarded? even in the castle she's guarded! although I'm realizing that they don't aloud guards in there, nevertheless, she should had seen that coming, but she's so blinded by her "power" that she fell into her own trap.

If this doesn't get Tommen to take action nothing will, but he has no good counselors, only Maester Pycelle and Qyburn...


Littlefinger again with his games, that young man he mentions to Lady Oleanna is Lancel? does he intend to incarcerate her too?


also great that scene of Bronn with the Sand snakes, I thought he was done but then that girl saved him, which is kind of odd, does she has a real thing for him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 26, 2015, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 25, 2015, 11:14:32 PMNever crossed my mind that Sansa would get something positive this soon, she's Ramsey's new play thing and he won't let go

I can't shake the feeling that Sansa is also the producers' plaything. This anecdote doesn't help:

QuoteLast season [Thrones director] Alex Graves decided to give me hints. He was saying, "You get a love interest next season." And I was all, "I actually get a love interest!" So I get the scripts and I was so excited and I was flicking through and then I was like, "Aw, are you kidding me!?"
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-wedding

This is the most obvious excessive overkill story the series has ever done. When you combine that kind of hamfistedness with the tastelessness and special rapeyness that the show has earned a reputation for, the whole storyline is just gross and boring.

I didn't even mention the attempted rape of Gilly, which, I found out, is yet another show creation not from the books. We need some intensity in this scene... why not rape? We're missing a character motivation here. Hmm you know what, rape will do.

I'm imagining there's one guy on the writer's staff who always chimes in "what if she gets raped?" whenever they discuss a female character. They usually ignore him, but in the end they have to let a certain number of rapes through (because of the union).

Side note: I am definitely enjoying the egg on the face of those who were saying last week, "But really, is it rape? They're married. She had to expect something like that." Oh really, does the average Westeros wedding night begin with blood-curdling screams? Idiots.


Quote from: Fernando on May 25, 2015, 11:14:32 PMhowever, you did notice that she took something with her right? I didn't see what it was but I think it sounded like a little piece of metal, I think that could be used before this season ends, on Ramsey I hope...

Yeah I hope so, but it seems just as likely that she'll be caught with it. As you said, it seems like they're orchestrating a convergence between Stannis, Bolton, Brienne, and Sansa, all at Winterfell. So yes, if you read those signs, Sansa's torture could continue until the penultimate episode of the season (traditionally the battle episode). An escape before then would be vastly more interesting, but I'm not counting on it. Their choice here could actually be a good litmus test for whether the show has gotten lost in its own formula.

Either way, the Sansa story is such transparently manipulative garbage that I find myself taken out of it and don't have much emotionally invested in it anymore. I doubt the producers were going for numbness or rejection, but that's what they've achieved.


Quote from: Fernando on May 25, 2015, 11:14:32 PMagree, first, why wasn't she guarded? even in the castle she's guarded! although I'm realizing that they don't aloud guards in there, nevertheless, she should had seen that coming, but she's so blinded by her "power" that she fell into her own trap.

What seemed weird to me was that their reveal was so choreographed and theatrical (complete with key figures stepping out of the shadows on cue), as if playing for some audience beyond Cersei. After she's dragged away I imagine them all high-fiving and congratulating each other on a great performance. It was still fun, though. Not complaining.

I really couldn't guess how this plot will be resolved, so it's pretty exciting. As Cersei said, if Tommen sends the army against the Faith Militant, they could execute the prisoners immediately, or at least hold them hostage.

Oh actually, here's my prediction... Petyr Baelish: hostage negotiator.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 27, 2015, 12:25:41 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 26, 2015, 05:32:18 PM
I really couldn't guess how this plot will be resolved, so it's pretty exciting. As Cersei said, if Tommen sends the army against the Faith Militant, they could execute the prisoners immediately, or at least hold them hostage.

Oh actually, here's my prediction... Petyr Baelish: hostage negotiator.

I thought that too, but given that Littlefinger owns a brothel, if he negotiates wouldn't he be too walking into a trap? why would the Septon give him a pass? IIRC Littlefinger even provided Loras a few season ago Olyvar who later betrayed him causing his and her sister their imprisonment...

yet, I can see Baelish being involved somehow but without getting too close to the sun; or maybe Tommen reaches out Lady Oleanna?


what do you think of this?
Quote from: Fernando on May 25, 2015, 11:14:32 PM
Littlefinger again with his games, that young man he mentions to Lady Oleanna is Lancel? does he intend to incarcerate her too?

he says to her and I quote: "I have a gift for you, the same kind of gift I gave Cersei, a handsome young man"
who if not Lancel is Littlefinger talking about? or is it Olyver? either way, what could she get out of them? and all this apparently happened before Cersei was caught...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 27, 2015, 12:41:58 AM
I was joking about the hostage negotiator thing, but yeah I think Littlefinger has to be involved in Margaery's release at the very least.

The Lancel part utterly confuses me. Littlefinger can't be talking about Lancel, right, because Lancel's return was a while ago? How would Littlefinger have any direct influence over Lancel at this point?

I do think Littlefinger is entirely on the Tyrells' side right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 01, 2015, 01:09:42 PM
I don't even care about this show anymore so can someone tell me what was so amazing about last nights episode that no one else will spoil for me?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 01, 2015, 01:12:39 PM
You should watch that episode. Or just the last twenty minutes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2015, 01:35:19 PM
03, you should watch the whole episode, if you don't want to watch the last 30 minutes, but really, watch it all.



SPOILS S05E08

great episode.

Jon Snow
so, not only dragon glass kills white walkers but valyrian steel too...

these guys are getting really good at battles, everything looked great, the giant, the WW, etc.


Sansa
well at least she now knows reek didn't kill her brothers, one good thing has happened.


Bolton
I know that predicting is almost pointless but I fear Stannis will be defeated by these assholes...or will have to use her daughter, Ramsey's plan to get to Stannis with only 20 men sounds daring but my feeling is that he will infiltrate his troops and try to get to him.


Arya
right now I don't really understand her story, I read somewhere that by the last episode everything will make more sense, she was by far one my fave characters but her last episodes have been a little dull.

Daenerys & Tyrion
it's so good to see those two together, Tyrion seems like a great adviser, I hope Varys enters the picture again with those two, he has to right? Tyrion already vouched for him.

poor Jorah had to go again, what will he gain by fighting for her? a second chance to be with her? because serving that guy seems pointless, although he's sick so maybe he doesn't give a shit anymore.

Cersei
it's crazy but I want Cersei to have her revenge, she's evil and dumb but I want her to succeed on this one, how the hell will she get out?

remember back in the first episode Qyburn had ''something'' at his table, I believe that is the mountain, will he use him for her rescue?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2015, 02:08:19 PM
To answer that question, we got a significant amount of explicit white walker action. Basically more than anyone ever expected to get this early. It's good.

It came so out of left field that I need to re-watch it for a fair assessment. Coming where it does in this season, it felt like supernatural overload. I'm not complaining... I just don't think I've properly processed it yet.

The spellcasting scene at the end of "The Children" (where one of the titular children started zapping/exploding a bunch of walkers) had an entirely different effect on me. It blew my mind and made me more excited than any other supernatural scene in the entire series. It was similarly out of left field, but it was so well-done (the sound design was masterful), and more important, tightly-packed and brief. It truly felt like supernatural things suddenly happening in a real world.

In the setpiece last night, it was something we had sort of seen before, but in a far more terrifying context, where the walkers posed an actual immediate threat to a bunch of important characters. The effect was dread and anxiety and a bit of hopelessness, like how are they ever going to overcome this enemy?

That (rather than the actual battling) was the strength of it, and I'm glad they ended on that note. The moment where Jon Snow, terrified, met eyes with the white walker across the water, was classic.

I have mixed feelings about the rest of the episode. I was so looking forward to the Tyrion/Daenerys matchup, but I can't help but feel like it landed with a thud. I mean, I guess it's completely realistic that Tyrion's speaking gets hyper-formal and awkward, but unfortunately I think it sheds a stark light on Peter Dinklage's terrible accent. It was pretty bad last night. Also the first interaction didn't feel particularly true to his character (perhaps because they're beyond the books here). Things improved significantly in their one-on-one meeting... I was so relieved when Tyrion finally made a joke, and Daenerys dealt with him in a way that made sense. I can't wait until they get more comfortable with each other and Tyrion can move past his stilted talk for good, because theirs could be one of the best duos. Maybe they need to bond during a road trip.

Jorah's life choices have seriously begun to annoy me, but at the same time his character is becoming more interesting with each episode. Anyway I wonder if dragon blood cures greyscale or something like that. Another hand-amputation would be redundant.

Quote from: Fernando on June 01, 2015, 01:35:19 PMArya
right now I don't really understand her story, I read somewhere that by the last episode everything will make more sense, she was by far one my fave characters but her last episodes have been a little dull.

From what I understand, Arya is sort of auditioning as an imposter, trying it out without actually using someone else's face yet. The point, as per the two-faced god, seems to be to bring justice in one way or another. That's why Arya is so excited about this, being really into revenge and whatnot.

Quote from: Fernando on June 01, 2015, 01:35:19 PMCersei
it's crazy but I want Cersei to have her revenge, she's evil and dumb but I want her to succeed on this one, how the hell will she get out?

remember back in the first episode Qyburn had ''something'' at his table, I believe that is the mountain, will he use him for her rescue?

I like that prediction. I just hope it's different enough from Frankenstein's monster.

Surely Qyburn can pull off something else, like gassing that whole place. Isn't he into chemical weapons?

I would still like Baelish to be involved in the resolution, which could very well end with Cersei being out of power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 02, 2015, 10:29:43 PM
even if Cersei gets out and has her revenge with that nun, I can't forget what the witch said to her in that flashback, basically she said she would lose all...


saw again the battle and just remembered that the thing I feared most was that the walkers wouldn't get to the giant, can you imagine a giant white walker? he would end all, they'd probably need a catapult full of dragon glass to beat that thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 08, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
Wow, that final scene  :bravo:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
That was definitely the best episode of the season so far. I really feel like I'm back on board.

When Daenerys and friends were surrounded, I literally said out loud excitedly: "Dragons! Dragons!" Then, push in and she closes her eyes. Epic scene.

In a lesser show, they would have added ADR of someone saying "where are your dragons?!?" offscreen. But here, they linger on this impossible situation just long enough to prompt you to run through the list of possible solutions, until you land on dragons, and then they give you the payoff. Good stuff.

The burning of Shireen is a great example of character horror done right in the show. It's a difficult storytelling choice that has meaningful implications for everyone, none more than Stannis, who has never been so interesting.

This also means that Shireen managed to go her entire life without being raped or even threatened with rape. And she somehow turned out to be a fully-developed character anyway. Well done, showrunners.

Daenerys taking off on her dragon and leaving her team behind is an interesting thing. I wonder what other people think about that. Is she escaping the city for good? Is she expecting them to catch up with her? How many unsullied are still alive? What kind of army will she even have going forward?

So many questions, and so much to be resolved. If they leave Sansa locked in her rape room over the break, I will be very disappointed. This finale needs to be 3 hours long.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 11, 2015, 01:04:22 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
When Daenerys and friends were surrounded, I literally said out loud excitedly: "Dragons! Dragons!" Then, push in and she closes her eyes. Epic scene.

I yelled the same thing except I said: Drogon!

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
In a lesser show, they would have added ADR of someone saying "where are your dragons?!?" offscreen. But here, they linger on this impossible situation just long enough to prompt you to run through the list of possible solutions, until you land on dragons, and then they give you the payoff. Good stuff.

Exactly. I think that she even summoned him when she closed her eyes, everything looked like they were about to fall and boom, he shows up to save the day.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
Daenerys taking off on her dragon and leaving her team behind is an interesting thing. I wonder what other people think about that. Is she escaping the city for good? Is she expecting them to catch up with her? How many unsullied are still alive? What kind of army will she even have going forward?

I don't think she's leaving them behind or the city, in fact I think she is saving Drogon for being killed.

I would expect that she would land at the top of her castle and eventually meet all her team again and regroup and make a new strategy to end that threat.

I also wonder about how many unsullied she still has, she had thousands and lost many but she still has the second sons so she probably still has a large army.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
The burning of Shireen is a great example of character horror done right in the show. It's a difficult storytelling choice that has meaningful implications for everyone, none more than Stannis, who has never been so interesting.

This also means that Shireen managed to go her entire life without being raped or even threatened with rape. And she somehow turned out to be a fully-developed character anyway. Well done, showrunners.

This sacrifice has to work right? So it should be expected that he will defeat the Boltons and by doing so save Sansa?

Also, some of his men looked horrified for that sacrifice, if he does that to his daughter, why would anyone follow him? What I wonder here is what you said, it will have consequences, probably both good (Boltons gone) and bad (losing men?)

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
If they leave Sansa locked in her rape room over the break, I will be very disappointed. This finale needs to be 3 hours long.

I'm hopeful that won't happen, she has that thing she got and will probably use it on fucking Ramsey, although having hope for good things on this show...

and yes, there's way too much ground to cover, an hour can't be enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 14, 2015, 06:01:02 PM
Speculation spoilers?

Things are looking good for some kind of movement on Sansa's story, if this production photo (http://www.ew.com/sites/default/files/styles/tout_image_612x380/public/i/2015/06/10/sansa-stark.jpg?itok=IHr9RQN2) is any indication.

I just read a theory about who Sansa might be surprised to see, which might correspond to the episode's title. If that's true, it would literally explode the internet.

The title almost certainly refers to Cersei's fate, which seems like a significant spoiler.

I can see it also applying to Daenerys. They love to pick episode titles that have double or triple meanings. Remember how "The Children," last season's finale, had a double meaning?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 14, 2015, 09:40:27 PM
Still not the Mother I wanted to see. (Who was the mother of the title, by the way?)

Anyway: good finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 12:22:43 AM
Re: Drenk. The titular "mother's mercy" refers to the mercy that Cersei had to beg for. (Anyway, no double or triple meanings after all, as far as I can tell.)

Speaking of which, do we think the walk of shame was maybe a minute too long? There was a way to do that effectively as a super long torment, but I'm not sure they pulled it off. Maybe there were too many repeating shots that were essentially the same thing. Or the music wasn't quite doing its job.

I thought it was a great finale overall though.

My favorite part was the dissolution of Stannis. It's quite powerful looking back on his story from beginning to end. It was fascinating to see Melisandre unraveling, too. I do wonder how we are to reconcile the actual magic that she performed (shadow baby etc.) and her actual psychic powers ("You know nothing Jon Snow") with her various charlatanry (including using powders to manipulate fires) and her ultimate failing.

Random thought. Littlefinger's plan (at least the one he told Cersei) depended on Stannis's and Bolton's forces weakening each other with a legit battle, which obviously did not materialize. Hmm.

Jon's death was pretty good. Unfortunately I had been spoiled on that one, including speculation that Olly would kill him (which was being telegraphed throughout this season). So I'm curious how other people reacted to that. I was disappointed that his eyes didn't turn blue right at the end.

This episode eliminated the character with the best claim to the throne (Stannis), and a potential one (R+L=J). Seems to clear the way for Daenerys a bit, doesn't it?

Arya's first scene was amazing. I'm beginning to see why book readers love her so much.

Too bad about Myrcella. Can't let a sweet moment last too long.

The place where they left Sansa, literally in mid-air plunging to some unknown fate, is a perfect illustration of the lazy suspense that now characterizes her story — or rather, that is now the entire content of her story. Brienne missing the candle lighting by seconds is the clear runner-up. That was something out of a terrible movie. My reaction to that was: "Wait, what? That's really what they're going with?" Is Sansa's story so blanketed with bad choices that one shade of idiocy is indistinguishable from another? This continues to be the dumbest corner of Game of Thrones and probably doesn't warrant any further thought. So I'll leave it there.

Also:

Game of Thrones author, producer on whether that character is really dead (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead)

Game of Thrones star on that shocking death: 'I'm not coming back' (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 15, 2015, 10:34:10 PM
First a spoiler free question for the book readers:

Did this season adapt stories from both book 4 and 5?
If so, did the producers left major events from those books for season 6?

--- --- ---

Each death of a major character has been worse than the last, Oberyn last year and now Jon Snow, it's almost laughable to still believe certain characters won't go, which I thought Jon was part of that club, mainly because of the mystery of who his parents really are, speculation points that he was the son of Ned's sister Lyanna with Rhaegar, and that to me seemed like some grand scheme was building towards that storyline, and he was ended by his fucking 'brothers', I'm rooting for the wildlings now.

Now, what will happen to Ghost? Alliser hates him so he probably will kill him.


This final episode had many cliffhangers or unresolved stories:

- Sansa jumping

- Arya going blind

- The Tyrell siblings locked up.

- Daenerys surrounded by Dothrakis and Drogo dying
Did no one think they should release the other dragons? Of course, who could get close to do that...


Myrcella dying just a few leagues from ashore, they have to go back right? or will Jaime take Trystane hostage to Kingslanding?


The only good things that happened was the reunion of Tyrion with Varys and Arya killing that Trent fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 10:47:57 PM
Apparently the series is completely caught up with the books now, and the show cliffhangers match up with the book cliffhangers for the most part.

I just realized that I'm more invested in Myrcella than Sansa right now. Is there a way she can survive? I agree that Jaime has to turn that boat right around. Surely he realizes it's poison.

There's a theory that the dying Jon wargs into Ghost, but that seems unlikely since Jon has never warged before.

I don't think Drogo is dying. Just resting/recovering.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 15, 2015, 11:21:28 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 10:47:57 PM
Apparently the series is completely caught up with the books now, and the show cliffhangers match up with the book cliffhangers for the most part.

Well that sucks, so that means Bran is completely absent from books 4 and 5? always assumed that maybe his story wasn't that big and they opted for him to sit this one out and return on S6.

Also, if you are correct, why did they adapt two book into one season? that seems dumb since the producers had to know GRRM wouldn't finish the new book on time.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 10:47:57 PM
I just realized that I'm more invested in Myrcella than Sansa right now. Is there a way she can survive? I agree that Jaime has to turn that boat right around. Surely he realizes it's poison.

I don't think she can survive but who knows, also if Jaime can't realize by himself she was poisoned Bronn can, that cute girl used the same poison on him.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 12:22:43 AM
Speaking of which, do we think the walk of shame was maybe a minute too long? There was a way to do that effectively as a super long torment, but I'm not sure they pulled it off. Maybe there were too many repeating shots that were essentially the same thing. Or the music wasn't quite doing its job.

It felt long, probably so the viewers felt the same as Cersei, I know I wanted it to end. Kudos to Lena heady, that must have been a difficult scene.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 12:22:43 AM
Random thought. Littlefinger's plan (at least the one he told Cersei) depended on Stannis's and Bolton's forces weakening each other with a legit battle, which obviously did not materialize. Hmm.

Yes that didn't come to be, but that little fuck always has a card under his sleeve.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 12:22:43 AM

The place where they left Sansa, literally in mid-air plunging to some unknown fate, is a perfect illustration of the lazy suspense that now characterizes her story — or rather, that is now the entire content of her story. Brienne missing the candle lighting by seconds is the clear runner-up. That was something out of a terrible movie. My reaction to that was: "Wait, what? That's really what they're going with?" Is Sansa's story so blanketed with bad choices that one shade of idiocy is indistinguishable from another? This continues to be the dumbest corner of Game of Thrones and probably doesn't warrant any further thought. So I'll leave it there.

I didn't like that candle lighti timing too. Still I'm invested in her story and hope she'll be ok.
But, is Sansa even in Bolton's hands in the books? Because apparently she isn't married to Ramsey.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 12:22:43 AM
Jon's death was pretty good. I was disappointed that his eyes didn't turn blue right at the end.

I think you have to be killed by a white walker for that to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 16, 2015, 12:12:12 AM
Despite Kit Harrington's outright lies to the media, Jon Snow will be coming back to life.

Point one: Melisandre, a high priestess of the Lord of Light, is at Castle Black.

Point two: We know from what's-his-name (the Brotherhood Without Banners guy), that, at least under certain conditions, followers of the Lord of Light can bring people back from the dead.

Point three: The writers of Game of Thrones are not terrible at storytelling.

Point four: Jon Snow's death at this point in the overall story would be terrible storytelling.

Ipso facto, Jon Snow will be up and tap dancing by episode two at the latest.

Further predictions, based on my vast reservoir of common sense: Stannis is 100% dead, Myrcella is 100% dead, Sansa and Theon are alive (there's a slim chance Theon dies, but Sansa's alive for sure).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2015, 12:25:10 AM
Re: Fernando

Bran was actually caught up to the books at the end of last season. This should answer your book question in detail:  http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/game-of-thrones-season-6

A body double was used for Lena's nudity. They even put her face on the body double for some shots. Still, a good performance for sure.

Re: Polka

The showrunners would have to be lying to the media, too. And these would be some outrageously bold lies.

QuoteWhen asked point-blank of Snow is firmly gone—as in, is actor Kit Harington released from his Thrones contract?—showrunner Dan Weiss told EW, "Dead is dead." 

"We would hope that after seeing the scene and the way it's shot that the answer to that will be unambiguous in the minds of the people watching it," Weiss explained. "It should be pretty clear what happens in by the time you're done seeing that scene. It's not an, 'Oh what just happened scene?'"

It's possible though. I do like the Melisandre theory.

Quote from: polkablues on June 16, 2015, 12:12:12 AMPoint three: The writers of Game of Thrones are not terrible at storytelling.

Point four: Jon Snow's death at this point in the overall story would be terrible storytelling.

I assume you disagree with my ongoing Sansa rants, then.

Agree that Stannis is dead, and that Myrcella is probably dead (though can we please say 90%?).

Ooh what if Bran flies in and catches Sansa? He doesn't have the wingspan for Theon though, so he tumbles off and dies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 16, 2015, 01:15:16 AM
I'm afraid I can't spot you that 10% for Myrcella. She has no further story value alive, only dead.

Note the semantic loophole in the statements re: Jon Snow -- all they're really denying is that he somehow survived the stabbings. I don't think anyone doubts this. The question, then, is not "did he die" (he did), it's "will he be brought back to life?" Everything they're currently saying in the media can be wiggled out of, even if they don't want to go as far as simply saying, "we lied because we wanted to surprise people," which would be completely justified. Harrington's statements are a little more definitive ("will not be back next season"); those, I believe, are simple fibs.

And one's opinion of the writers' handling of the Sansa storyline notwithstanding, there is far too much of the story as has been set up, both plot-wise and thematically, that is predicated on Jon Snow's continued involvement for his permanent death to make any sense. And I feel like it has to follow the Melisandre route. Ignoring any extratextual stuff from the books, Jon warging into his wolf would be a massive out-of-nowhere deus ex machina, because they never even attempted to set it up at any point in the series. Using Lord of Light magic to resurrect people, on the other hand, is well established. I feel very confident about this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2015, 08:54:15 AM
Well, I hope you're right. That would indeed be far better storytelling. They've certainly shown that Melisandre is interested in Jon. And it would really be a shame to see nothing materialize out of R+L=J.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Alexandro on June 16, 2015, 10:20:53 AM
SPOILERS

Well, one thing is for sure and it's that they can't have more than one fake death. Perhaps two.
But everyone "dying" on this episode and then returning next season would be too stupid. Sansa might be one to survive, and perhaps Jon Snow. But Stannis and the blonde girl are gone. Reek too I hope.

Anyway it was major cruelty this finale. If it were a stand alone film it would be like a poem on hopelessness. Not one moment passes without being crushed by the worst feeling possible. That Cersei walk has to be one of the most cruel scenes ever on tv.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 16, 2015, 10:55:45 AM
SPOILERS

I don't know why people seem to be confused about Sansa and Theon's fate. They obviously make it. It's interesting that the storm that ruined Stannis is what allowed her to escape, not only by building up the snow for her to land on, but depleting the Stannis force enough so Ramsay felt bold enough to ride out and meet him.

Jon Snow is definitely dead but will likely return to the story in some way. All of this death and resurrection stuff hasn't been set up for nothing. I've read some people point out that dying releases Snow from his Night's Watch vows, which I found interesting.

It's going to be an awkward morning with all the wildlings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2015, 12:07:23 PM
That better be some really soft snow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 25, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
Very light speculation spoilers


Jon Snow rumors swirl after Kit Harington sighting in Belfast

http://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/jon-snow-rumors-abound-after-kit-harington-sighting/

Fans have held onto hope that Game of Thrones character Jon Snow, who met a grisly demise at the end of season five by the hands of his fellow Night's Watchmen, will somehow appear in season six. Such theories — including that actor Kit Harington will return as a Wight, or that the character of Jon Snow lives on through the direwolf Ghost — were bolstered by a few fan snapshots taken of Harington flying into Belfast, where Game of Thrones is currently shooting season six. Harrington was also spotted Wednesday with GoT co-star Ben Crompton, who plays Night's Watch brother Dolorous Edd. Still, the skeptics say that Harington could be in Belfast to visit friends in the cast, or possibly to appear in a flashback or funeral scene. Either way, Harington is still sporting Snow's luscious locks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 04, 2016, 01:28:00 PM
George R.R. Martin to Fans: Don't Hold Your Breath For That Next Game of Thrones Book

The Winds of Winter won't be done any time soon.


http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/news/a40900/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-book-update/

There are times when it's hard to be a Game of Thrones fan. Pretty much every character you love dies. The books are really, really, really long—sometimes unnecessarily so. And author George R.R. Martin famously writes at the pace of about two books a decade. Now, Martin is kicking off 2016 with some bad news about the much-anticipated next book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series: You're not going to see The Winds of Winter any time soon. As he writes on his personal Live Journal page:


His note seems to be a response to a number of reports last week on theories that Martin hadn't even started on The Winds of Winter.


In his lengthy note, Martin admits that the book will not be done before Game of Thrones season six airs on April 8. He had intended to have the book released by late March, which would have meant he needed to finish a manuscript Halloween. But he didn't get it done, because, as he says, "You can blame my travels or my blog posts or the distractions of other projects and the Cocteau and whatever, but maybe all that had an impact... you can blame my age, and maybe that had an impact too...but if truth be told, sometimes the writing goes well and sometimes it doesn't, and that was true for me even when I was in my 20s."

Now, the only deadline that he's giving himself is that, "It will be done when it's done." And this means, of course, that the HBO show will certainly pass where the books are at. Which, brings up the next obvious question: Will the show spoil the books? Martin has another disappointing answer for that: "Maybe. Yes and no ... Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on January 04, 2016, 01:31:54 PM
SPOILERS GoT season 5:


I don't care about waiting for the book and I hope the pressure doesn't destroy his process...but I'm also sad that after hundred and hundred of pages I'll discover what the fuck is happening behind the Wall in the TV Show. Of course, the books and the show are different. And I prefer the books. But it's still a bummer...

I can decide not to watch the show. But who am I kidding, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on January 06, 2016, 08:30:33 AM
No chance for GoT to be the best show ever. Sorry.  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 08, 2016, 03:37:16 PM
Red-band trailer. A little spoilery, of course.


https://youtu.be/CuH3tJPiP-U
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on March 08, 2016, 03:56:27 PM
cant wait.

I'm curious to see if the writing of this season will be as good as the others, since they are now in some story lines way off the book and the rest are not written/published yet. I know GRRM has given them hints where he's going with it but still we'll see if they can deliver.

I have hope because Dan and David have written great scenes that aren't in the books, we'll see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 17, 2016, 09:16:57 PM
Ian McShane spoiled something in an interview. Outrage followed. His response?

"Get a fucking life. It's only tits and dragons."

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/03/ian-mcshane-tits-and-dragons

(For the record, he actually dropped two spoilers, one being more severe and specific. Unfortunately I've now read both of them.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 13, 2016, 09:13:05 AM
the last trailer is good! trailer spoilers and speculations:

tyrion is definitely a targaryen. it make too much sense at this point. when he visit the dragons at the end of the trailer it's because 1) he knows that he is a targaryen or 2) is about to realize that. drogon is obviously daenerys dragon and it makes sense that tyrion will ride one of the others.

I just watched S04E01 and had forgotten all about this scene:



just imagine the last scene of this whole thing when tyrion, daenerys and jon snow are flying away into the sunset with their dragons, looking at each other and smiling because everything went okay. it will be the most beautiful ending and this song will be the perfect soundtrack for it:



it's time to say goodbye to yesterday. all men mustn't die. IT'S GONNA BE OKAY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 24, 2016, 05:21:33 PM
FYI, if you don't have HBO, you can sign up for a 30-day free trial of HBO NOW. And honestly, $15/mo is reasonable.

Also keep in mind that HBO is more aggressive about torrents than any other entity. (Unless you use a VPN.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 24, 2016, 10:42:02 PM
Just a reminder, we don't need to post spoiler warnings here, as the thread title suggests. Only post warnings for significant future spoilers like things seen in previews. Lots of people avoid the previews.

––––––––––

Oh how I missed Game of Thrones. It's not my favorite TV show, but it's the one that I anticipate with the most white hot intensity. By a wide margin.

And part of that is GoT's ability to thoroughly satisfy, once in a while giving us a profound payoff that brings character and plot into glorious convergence. When Brienne kneeled down and started giving her oath to Sansa, I cried. When Sansa accepted her oath, I cried like ten babies. You can see in Sansa's eyes a glimmer of happiness and optimism for the first time in a long time. It was so beautiful and so flawlessly understated. I think if they'd hugged, I would have had a brain aneurism.

I like how they brought Jon's wolf and the Red Woman into the picture to cruelly tease both possibilities. It's too late for Jon to warg, though, isn't it? Would he have had to do that as he was dying? Unless next week, we see the wolf clawing a message into the floor.

Can't wait to see what transpires next with Melisandre. Late last season we saw her doubting her powers and even her faith, but surely that was a little disingenuous. Because she's been magically disguising her appearance this whole time, and because she knows the Lord of Light (or whatever it channels) contains tangible power beyond herself. I'd like to see her go back into that room with Davos. Maybe she's chastened now and could become a benevolent ally — maybe even sacrificing herself to revive Jon.

So Arya is Daredevil now? Why does this universe get to have absolutely everything?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 25, 2016, 09:26:20 AM
Was a good first ep, but conciously trying to cram in every character to give us an update. Save for Bran, of course. They're definitely milking the Jon Snow death though - I just want that resolved so the internet isn't all "is he dead?" Cersei remains my favorite character, and that moment where her happiness melts into sadness as she realizes her daughter is dead was wonderfully done, powerfully understated just like the Sansa-Brienne moment. Actually, I really thought for a moment that Sansa and Theon weren't going to escape. After all, people easy escape on TV all the time, GOT has to buck the trend in that regard doesn't it? Fortunately not, because it's nice to see Sansa get a break for once.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 26, 2016, 06:04:55 PM
It was indeed a relief to see Sansa not simply being raped into her next character moment. I was absolutely sure Brienne was going to save her, though. Because I wasn't willing to entertain other possibilities.

I heard an observation about that scene, which really brought out the subtleties for me: Notice how Sansa begins accepting the oath tentatively, sheepishly. (I also see a look of shame that she didn't accept Brienne's oath the first time.) She is tentative, even looking to Theon for approval. Then as it continues, you can see her gaining confidence. Remembering her lineage. Standing up a little straighter. Recognizing how proud she should be that she's actually made it here, to this moment. What a performance.

Some light speculation spoilers:

People are suggesting that Jon's consciousness is currently in Ghost (his direwolf). And then when Melisandre revives him, it will transfer back into his body. But it will bring along some wolf qualities; apparently there is precedent for that in the books. The act of reviving changes a person too. So Jon could come back with two dimensions of change.

This courtesy of Matt Atchity (editor-in-chief of Rotten Tomatoes, from their podcast): Book readers are upset that the Dorne story was harshly and suddenly pruned. But it could actually lead to something very interesting. Imagine King's Landing and Dorne going to war, turning the South into a disaster area. The populace will be begging for Daenerys to intervene and restore peace.

I've heard some doubt that Stannis is dead. But he absolutely is. In the "previously on" clip, you can actually hear Oathkeeper slicing through his neck. They included the gore sound effect just to make it clear, and so they could keep the focus on Brienne, where it belonged.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 01, 2016, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 26, 2016, 06:04:55 PM

Some light speculation spoilers:

People are suggesting that Jon's consciousness is currently in Ghost (his direwolf). And then when Melisandre revives him, it will transfer back into his body. But it will bring along some wolf qualities; apparently there is precedent for that in the books. The act of reviving changes a person too. So Jon could come back with two dimensions of change.

Minor book spoils.

In the book Dance with dragons is evident that Jon too has warg abilities but he has never used them, and that warg wildling he killed said he was like him too but didn't know about it.

the little we saw ghost last week there is no indication he warged in him, many book readers speculate that he could live through ghost and maybe that would work on the book but I have my doubts it can work on the tv show.

As for Melisandre, she tells him that she sees daggers in his future and that at some point he will have need of her, so, many believe it will be Melisandre who revives him. as of right now I have my doubts it will happen (in the tv show) given that she has lost faith in herself, many things could change of course.

another interesting bit of Melisandre's chapter in ADWD is that she keeps asking to see Azor Ahai (Stannis according to her) in her fires but she only sees snow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 04, 2016, 11:03:12 PM
not a single comment, were you disappointed or what?


Jon. Through the final scene couldn't help to notice that Melisandre's gem never glowed, and so I think it was a weird choice the way they brought him back, I understand that that Mel is having doubts and all that but IMO the scene could have been more powerful if done a little different, other than that no complains, I'm happy he's back.

Ramsey. The surprising thing about him is that he is even worse in the books, having said that, he oddly looked like he wasn't enjoying the killing of Walda and her infant son, although he chose the most horrible way to kill them. Roose's death was unexpected and it was one of the characters I wanted to see go in a horrible way, it's weird but it didn't feel that awful, although he died exactly like Robb, he literally reaped what he sowed.

Bran. It's going to be interesting how much he goes to the past and future and what they show us, there are many stories they could tell.

Tyrion's freeing the dragons was good, I wonder if they left the door open so they can escape...

Kill of the week. The giant smashing that crow to the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 12:13:32 AM
I definitely liked the episode...

Ramsay not taking pleasure in Roose's death (looking away, even) was interesting. But then he grits his teeth and moves on, deriving power from what he's done, like Kylo Ren.

The ensuing bit of grisly business in the dog kennel was somehow less interesting, and not as effective as Shireen's death. I'm probably in the severe minority, but I think we needed to see a little more there. I don't need to see a spray of blood across Ramsay's face, but... maybe the woman flinching as the dogs go in? Something like that.

The way Jon's resurrection played out was surprisingly divisive. I will happily defend it. Sure, it was weird, but that's actually great. Did people really want more cliches in that scene? I thought it was appropriately bizarre and singular and memorable. It's kind of poetic the way they removed all other characters from the scene, so it was a moment between us and Jon Snow, both intimate and meta. The way it dragged out tortured but delighted me. I enjoy being trolled, and this was some prime trolling.

Until we saw Ghost wake up, I honestly thought they just might pull the rug and leave him dead. Of course that doesn't make any sense, but such was the power of the scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 05, 2016, 09:40:08 AM
I've fund these first two episodes to be surprisingly hollow, but maybe that's just in the context of all the morning-after reactions online which ALWAYS contain the word "shocking" in the headline. At least the whole "is Jon really dead?" nonsense has been put to bed now. I did get a goofy grin when I realized that was Hodor in the opening scene. Would have liked more from the Tyrion/dragons scene - it felt like it has no resolution. Based on his speech immediately prior, I was expecting him to either set the dragons free or at least start to bond with them. I felt that the "if I ever have an idea like that again..." line undercut the whole thing and made it seem like it really didn't matter.

Also - even though Dany is now going to be imprisoned (??) didn't the respect otherwise shown to her contradict what we previously learned about the Dothraki and how they treat the widow of the former leaders?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
Quote from: Sleepless on May 05, 2016, 09:40:08 AMWould have liked more from the Tyrion/dragons scene - it felt like it has no resolution. Based on his speech immediately prior, I was expecting him to either set the dragons free or at least start to bond with them. I felt that the "if I ever have an idea like that again..." line undercut the whole thing and made it seem like it really didn't matter.

He was only saying that as a quip because it was a scary experience. That was absolutely an important scene. It heavily hinted that he's half Targaryen. And now he's basically the uncle of dragons.

In fact, they put three major puzzles pieces together, all in this one episode, pushing us further toward (SPECULATION SPOILERS) the much-anticipated Targaryen trio — Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion — and the eventual climax involving all three of them:

1. Jon coming back
2. Tyrion making dragon friends & being all but outed as a Targaryen
2. Introducing Lyanna Stark, which set off all kinds of alarms for book readers, because she is arguably the key to the whole thing

And anyway, I believe Tyrion has set the dragons free. Isn't there a larger exit somewhere in the back? Surely they won't be going out through that little door.

Quote from: Sleepless on May 05, 2016, 09:40:08 AMAlso - even though Dany is now going to be imprisoned (??) didn't the respect otherwise shown to her contradict what we previously learned about the Dothraki and how they treat the widow of the former leaders?

I think they'll end up joining her army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 05, 2016, 11:05:51 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
He was only saying that as a quip because it was a scary experience. That was absolutely an important scene. It heavily hinted that he's half Targaryen. And now he's basically the uncle of dragons.

I get that, I've been paying attention to the speculation here from people who know more than me. On reflection, it probably would have been too heavy handed if they'd made a bigger deal of the scene or not had the quip to undercut it all. The geography of the dungeon is bugging me now though - it's so dark in there, must be a heck of a walk to the larger dragon-size door.

So dragons rescue Dany, torch the Dothraki, all the merry widows join Dany's army, Jorah pissed that he couldn't be Dany's savior?

Had to Google Lyanna.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 11:27:54 AM
You're right, that dungeon is problematic. I'm struggling to fill in the blanks for them. I guess it's possible Tyrion wants to feed them something before they're fully released.

The consensus seems to be that the Dothraki will join Dany's army... but I have no idea how or why. Should be interesting.

(More speculation spoilers on the same subject)

As much as I love Hodor, he kinda served as a red herring in that flashback. Lyanna is the Helen of Troy of this whole story, and her introduction is explosively important. Casting reveals that we'll be seeing the older version of her, too. Her abduction led to Robert's Rebellion, and her progeny (which resulted from that abduction) may just save the world. It's like a beautiful redemptive loop.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
I know GoT is working when I'm genuinely angry that the episode has ended. Why not another hour? I have a legit free trial of HBO Now; am I not entitled to more?

Jon's story worked the best for me in this episode. I don't know how that could have been done better — every step felt pitch-perfect. I especially loved Jon's awakening. The execution scene was fantastic, too. Is it bad that I was excited to see Ollie die?

Really not sure who to root for in King's Landing. My head tells me that Olenna Tyrell is the most legit person there, but my heart wants Cersei to slay all her enemies and bathe in their blood. Surely they must join forces to defeat the church.

I hope some of these stories come to fruition earlier than others. Please don't put all the payoffs in one episode. As much as I enjoy it, I don't know how much setup and anticipation I can handle.

Arya's scenes are barely holding my interest. Perhaps it doesn't enthrall me that her progress is mostly achieved by being beaten with a stick for a long time. I'm not sure it's working as intended... just seems a little substanceless. Maybe it's one of those things that will be more interesting in retrospect, once we see where it's leading.

Speculation spoilers:

Yet more movement toward R+L=J. So close that they're almost showing their hand. I hope the reveal will be subtle enough. It could be an impossible task to please everyone, i.e. those who may not remember Ned dropping a hint in Season 1, and those who are impatiently expecting a very specific thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 06:35:15 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
I know GoT is working when I'm genuinely angry that the episode has ended. Why not another hour? I have a legit free trial of HBO Now; am I not entitled to more?



I don't think they know what they're doing, that's why almost nothing happens in this episode. I mean, there is a whole scene with Tyrion who doesn't know what to say...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 09, 2016, 10:42:17 AM
Quote from: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 06:35:15 AMalmost nothing happens in this episode.

Something important happened in every scene, including the one you reference.

"Nothing happened..." I even heard this said about last week's episode, in which an absurd number of things happened. In which two of the most powerful men in this universe were assassinated. In which Lyanna Stark was introduced and Jon Snow came back from the dead.

What more do people want? Are GoT fans really so fickle that they freak out when there's one quiet scene? I sincerely don't understand this phenomenon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 09, 2016, 10:42:17 AM
Quote from: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 06:35:15 AMalmost nothing happens in this episode.

Something important happened in every scene, including the one you reference.

"Nothing happened..." I even heard this said about last week's episode, in which an absurd number of things happened. In which two of the most powerful men in this universe were assassinated. In which Lyanna Stark was introduced and Jon Snow came back from the dead.

What more do people want? Are GoT fans really so fickle that they freak out when there's one quiet scene? I sincerely don't understand this phenomenon.

Yes, my sentence was easy, I didn't explain myself correctly. I'd take a whole episode with Bran instead of them killing characters from the books they don't want to deal with (it was even supposed to be comic, I think...)

I actually prefer the quiet scenes. The ones with Cersei this season were all great. Last week (except the silly murders) was a good episode. But I do think that they're stuck. Arya and Sansa have awful storylines. Arya has that overlong storyline in the books, too, but she's less destined to become a killing machine, I think. But they could have done way better with Sansa. At this point, she's not the one who needs to be comforted by Theon. I don't mind when you change the material. It's already different story! But when you change the storyline and don't care anymore about your character...


About Jon: all the fuss about his death will be forgotten and I'm glad that it made him leave Castle Black. I just hope that a convergence will begin, and if they needed that episode to make that happen, all right. The Starks back at Winterfell to save Rickon and take what's theirs?

And: Tommen is great. He should stay king.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 09, 2016, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
Jon's story worked the best for me in this episode. I don't know how that could have been done better — every step felt pitch-perfect. I especially loved Jon's awakening. The execution scene was fantastic, too. Is it bad that I was excited to see Ollie die?

Yes it worked, I like that they are consistent with the fact that there's nothing on the other side, which is what Beric Dondarrion said too to Melisandre.
I would have loved to see more of her with Jon, now he's gone but I hope they bring them together again.
I notice he left without Ghost, but I guess he will follow him.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
Really not sure who to root for in King's Landing. My head tells me that Olenna Tyrell is the most legit person there, but my heart wants Cersei to slay all her enemies and bathe in their blood. Surely they must join forces to defeat the church.

Same thing happens to me, I want to see Cersei get her revenge and probably she will get at least some of it, but in the end it will back fire like many decisions she's made, it surprised me that the scene at the small council didn't end in a bloodshed.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
Arya's scenes are barely holding my interest. Perhaps it doesn't enthrall me that her progress is mostly achieved by being beaten with a stick for a long time. I'm not sure it's working as intended... just seems a little substanceless. Maybe it's one of those things that will be more interesting in retrospect, once we see where it's leading.

I actually liked Arya's story this week, and more importantly, she mentions Walder Frey for the first time in her list, which now only has three names.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
Speculation spoilers:

Yet more movement toward R+L=J. So close that they're almost showing their hand. I hope the reveal will be subtle enough. It could be an impossible task to please everyone, i.e. those who may not remember Ned dropping a hint in Season 1, and those who are impatiently expecting a very specific thing.

JB, what hint are you talking about? I only remember Ned mentioning to Jon that he will tell him about her next time they see each other, right after Jon goes to Castle Black and Ned is heading to Kingslanding.

I don't get the speculation that Tyrion is a Targaryen, there hasn't been any hints (as far as I remember) in the show or the books, last week scene with the dragons was even explained by Tyrion, dragons are even more intelligent than men he said, at least to me that doesn't mean Tyrion has Targaryen blood.


Rickon is back! and yet another direwolf is gone :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 09, 2016, 11:44:14 AM
Quote from: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 10:55:19 AMBut I do think that they're stuck.

I can understand that. Arya, Brann, and Daenerys are all very much stuck. Others are also a bit stuck, but more by choice. Theon and Sansa are on the move, and Jon will be too, so that's kind of enough for me right now. I'm making an effort to be patient, because you can really feel an epic convergence on the horizon.

I think it's going to work, as long as they don't try to blow our minds by cramming too much of it into one episode.

Quote from: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 10:55:19 AMBut they could have done way better with Sansa.

I've probably expended thousands of words here complaining about the show's Sansa choices. But this season's premiere was redemptive for me. I think she finally has promise.

Quote from: Fernando on May 09, 2016, 11:12:56 AMJB, what hint are you talking about? I only remember Ned mentioning to Jon that he will tell him about her next time they see each other, right after Jon goes to Castle Black and Ned is heading to Kingslanding.

That's basically what I'm referencing. In retrospect, it's more how it was said. It was the show dropping a heavy hint very early that Jon's parentage was a completely open question. Also, it seemed very incongruous at the time that Ned would have been unfaithful to his wife (not honorable) and then brought back the baby. I think there was enough to make us suspect that wasn't the truth.

Quote from: Fernando on May 09, 2016, 11:12:56 AMI don't get the speculation that Tyrion is a Targaryen, there hasn't been any hints (as far as I remember) in the show or the books, last week scene with the dragons was even explained by Tyrion, dragons are even more intelligent than men he said, at least to me that doesn't mean Tyrion has Targaryen blood.

I'm trying to remember the source for that, but I think it's 90% likely that he is a Targaryen. The way Tywin was so resentful of him seemed to go beyond his appearance or the fact that his mother died in childbirth. That would make a lot more sense if Tywin knew he wasn't the father.

Found some good evidence here:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-likelihood-that-Tyrion-Lannister-is-secretly-a-Targaryen

Example from that link. Tywin says this to Tyrion: "You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

We already have one vehicle for discovering these secrets, but we will soon have another — Sam — when he starts studying to be a maester.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 16, 2016, 01:02:40 AM
LOL, I just read another AV Club comment (http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/strangers-reemerge-westeros-game-thrones-marches-e-236809#comment-2677896306): "And yet another episode in which nothing happened!" Which did in fact make me laugh out loud. Do people understand what "happened" means? This is seriously getting out of control.

I've been sampling some GoT podcasts, and there is one ("A Cast of Kings") which is at least 50% complaining about the show. This season is such an improvement over last; will people settle for nothing but absolute perfection? It's made by humans. I'm reminded of something Matt Zoller Seitz often says. Audacity should be rewarded and appreciated. I have a genuine sadness for viewers who don't even realize how much they're taking this show for granted.

Anyway...

I think this might be the best episode of this season so far, although the premiere was more emotionally affecting. I guess I'm less interested in judging GoT episode-by-episode, though. Sure, they do like to wrap an episode in a theme sometimes, but outside of that it's like "which episode had the greatest number of scenes with my favorite characters or places."

Daenerys's big scene had me more excited than a schoolgirl. I'm not even sure what noises I made. Benioff compared it to her first "fire rebirth," but for me it struck the same chords as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nTj-um1c_o).

Sansa & Jon meeting was the other major highlight. I was so grateful that these characters were mercifully allowed to reunite and join forces. Sansa is really stepping up, isn't she? And thankfully, it seems to have less to do with her rape, and more to do with wanting Winterfell back. Reasons for optimism: Surely it's too soon for Jon or Sansa to suffer another defeat, story-wise. Littlefinger's "army of the Vale" plus other Northern houses plus the Wildlings (specifically threatened in that letter) should be enough to take Winterfell, right?

There was a lot of great humor in this episode. Tormund being smitten with Brienne. Sand in the face not working.

I think Meereen yielded mixed results this time. I'm going to blame it on Misandei and Greyworm's acting abilities, honestly. Their eyes were almost bugging out of their heads. The camera picks up subtlety, you guys! Less is more! And Greyworm's accent is not great. (I suppose he would sound stilted speaking a foreign tongue, though, so it's tough to judge.)

Lots of brief important moments in this episode were handled pitch-perfectly. Like Theon and Yara.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 16, 2016, 05:53:23 AM
^ A perfect response to the ep. I agree with everything you said, including best ep of the season so far. Soooo much happened.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 16, 2016, 09:57:13 AM
Well, that was a great episodes. Everything was moving toward an end goal with great scenes. Great characters moments, too. And Sansa is finally Sansa!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 17, 2016, 01:02:59 AM
There's a joke to be made about Ramsay and OSHA violations, but I can't be bothered to work it out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 17, 2016, 06:27:40 AM
Quote from: polkablues on May 17, 2016, 01:02:59 AM
There's a joke to be made about Ramsay and OSHA violations, but I can't be bothered to work it out.

It's not so much that he killed her, rather that he was wearing sandals while he did it.

Disclaimer: I don't know if he was *actually* wearing sandals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PM
SPOILS S06E04

Jon and Sansa
This was a great surprised, I thought they would miss each other like many times before, but finally two Starks meet! I know it wouldn't be good story telling or whatever but I'd love to see Jon and Sansa telling each other's misadventures.

Littlefinger
So it looks like LF will be helping them to take back the north, this conniving prick always plays for one cause, his, I wonder if by now Sansa has learned not to trust that and if he does help it will be with some precautions. And that little Lord of the Vale looks as crazy as his mom.

Dany
When Dany and the Dothraki girl go out, Dany asked her if she wants to see her dragons, she says "I can never leave Vaes Dothrak, until I rise as smoke from the pyre on the day I die", didn't notice this phrase until I saw the episode again, I guess Dany got from that her idea of burning them to the ground, and so, she's a goddess again.

Kingslanding
I love that for once Cersei is doing the right thing (apparently) and is making an ally of her "enemies" for a common cause, what I wonder is her true intentions, does she really wants to help Margaery go back to Tommen? Probably...but for a short time.

Theon
All things considered Theon is slowly recovering from Ramsey's physical and mental torture, Yara was kind of hard with him, but it was great that Theon is thinking right and will support Yara, but at the eyes of the iron born, what kind of influence can he a broken man have on them?

The letter
That part in the book is pretty sweet and here while different worked really well, loved Tormund's reaction of it, his eyes full of rage, in the end Jon doesn't have another choice than to go and fight.

Rickon
There's a lot of speculation that the guy that handed Rickon and Osha is really a Stark follower and that even Shaggydog is alive (please let that be true!), it could be but it's a bold plan to say the least, now Osha is gone and Rickon is locked up under dire conditions so that theory is probably shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2016, 04:19:52 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PMLittlefinger
So it looks like LF will be helping them to take back the north, this conniving prick always plays for one cause, his, I wonder if by now Sansa has learned not to trust that and if he does help it will be with some precautions. And that little Lord of the Vale looks as crazy as his mom.

Is it technically true that he's playing all sides right now? He's even in with the Lannisters. If the attack on Winterfell fails (it won't), would he be able to hide his involvement from the Bolton(s)?

Also, the penultimate episode of this season will be the battle for Winterfell, right?

Quote from: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PMKingslanding
I love that for once Cersei is doing the right thing (apparently) and is making an ally of her "enemies" for a common cause, what I wonder is her true intentions, does she really wants to help Margaery go back to Tommen? Probably...but for a short time.

I heard an interesting bit of speculation on the Rotten Tomatoes podcast. Taking for granted that Cersei is never the mastermind she believes she is, but Olenna was only matched by Tywin... What if the Tyrells are planning to let Tommen die and take over King's Landing? If there's any resistance, their army will be right there inside the city, and the Lannister army will be standing down.

Quote from: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PMThe letter
That part in the book is pretty sweet and here while different worked really well, loved Tormund's reaction of it, his eyes full of rage, in the end Jon doesn't have another choice than to go and fight.

There was so much good stuff in this episode that I didn't get to that, but it was one of my favorite moments. Ramsay's refrain: "come and see" was absolutely chilling. Perhaps moreso with Ramsay not present. (Kit Harrington did a great job with that scene.)

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 16, 2016, 01:02:40 AMthey do like to wrap an episode in a theme sometimes

I think the theme of this episode was female empowerment (in many cases), and sisters telling their brothers to get it together: Sansa with Jon, Yara with Theon, and Margaery with Loras.

BTW, this ep has 100% on Rotten Tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s06/e04/), with 44 reviews.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 10:51:59 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2016, 04:19:52 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PMLittlefinger
So it looks like LF will be helping them to take back the north, this conniving prick always plays for one cause, his, I wonder if by now Sansa has learned not to trust that and if he does help it will be with some precautions. And that little Lord of the Vale looks as crazy as his mom.

Is it technically true that he's playing all sides right now? He's even in with the Lannisters. If the attack on Winterfell fails (it won't), would he be able to hide his involvement from the Bolton(s)?

Also, the penultimate episode of this season will be the battle for Winterfell, right?

He has shown us many times he plays for the team that is convenient at that moment, when he's with Cersei he tells her what she wants to hear and so he does the same with everyone else. e.g. I don't doubt he cared for Catelyn but in the end what he craves is power, obviously he knew about the red wedding and didn't do shit to alert his dear Cat, yes he killed Joffrey but again to end up with Sansa, only to hand her to the Boltons; see? I can't trust anything he says...

Anyway, what's interesting now is how will he get away with Sansa's stupid abduction story when they meet at Castle Black or wherever, assuming they do, all Lord Royce has to do (if he lives) is chat with Sansa, Brienne, Jon or whoever could know to blow that story over, maybe this will be the con that will end his luck? probably not...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2016, 04:19:52 PMAlso, the penultimate episode of this season will be the battle for Winterfell, right?

Yes, that has to be episode 9, and apparently it's the biggest yet.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2016, 04:19:52 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PMKingslanding
I love that for once Cersei is doing the right thing (apparently) and is making an ally of her "enemies" for a common cause, what I wonder is her true intentions, does she really wants to help Margaery go back to Tommen? Probably...but for a short time.

I heard an interesting bit of speculation on the Rotten Tomatoes podcast. Taking for granted that Cersei is never the mastermind she believes she is, but Olenna was only matched by Tywin... What if the Tyrells are planning to let Tommen die and take over King's Landing? If there's any resistance, their army will be right there inside the city, and the Lannister army will be standing down.

I like that theory, maybe that's when the prophecy of that witch comes to full circle and she finally losses everything? Will see...

Which podcast would you recommend? I haven't listened to any...

BTW, I saw a little of after the thrones and it isn't good, it's made for people that don't pay attention and only know the names of four characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2016, 12:20:37 AM
It's hard to tell what will happen with Littlefinger. The thing is, the story has lined up so many characters who could end up being pivotal in the final conflicts. Arya could go around assassinating key people. Bran could warg into a dragon. (That's happening, right?) Littlefinger could influence yet another hugely important plot turn.

Actually, isn't Arya the perfect candidate to off Littlefinger? She doesn't owe him anything, and she could do it anonymously. Anyone else trying to take him down would face consequences.

Quote from: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 10:51:59 PMWhich podcast would you recommend? I haven't listened to any...

BTW, I saw a little of after the thrones and it isn't good, it's made for people that don't pay attention and only know the names of four characters.

Game of Thrones The Podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/) - Has 3 episodes every week: instant take, in-depth analysis, book-infused speculation. (I don't listen to all of them.) Based on your reaction to After The Thrones, you might like this podcast the best.

Nerdette Recaps Game of Thrones with Peter Sagal (http://www.npr.org/podcasts/475256456/nerdette-recaps-game-of-thrones-with-peter-sagal) - Might be my favorite one on balance.

Rotten Tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/columns/rotten_tomatoes_podcast/) - Matt Atchity (RT editor-in-chief) is the highlight of their GoT recaps. He's come up with a few theories I haven't heard anywhere else.

Throneroom (http://podcastldn.com/throneroom/) - Just tried this one today. It's pretty good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2016, 09:44:11 PM
Here's something that podcasts can't do:

http://www.avclub.com/video/does-handsome-falcon-game-thrones-remind-you-anyon-236959
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 23, 2016, 01:17:52 AM
Damn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: samsong on May 23, 2016, 01:35:25 AM
i'm... so sad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 23, 2016, 02:02:36 AM
Saddest death on GoT, methinks. Heartbreaking. And it was not a king or an important player.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 23, 2016, 07:52:42 AM
Best episode in a long time.

I wonder what Bran has changed more.

Loved the children of the forest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 23, 2016, 11:42:10 AM
This season has been really great, every episode better than the last, of course, after an uplifting episode it had to follow a heartbreaking one.

I wonder how much information has GRRM given to Dave and Dan...could it be that he gave them an outline of the events but only for the show? and they just develop the story to get to that point.

anyway...

Sansa
Loved how Sansa confronted Littlefinger, "if you didn't know what Ramsey was you're an idiot, if you did you're my enemy" Sansa FTW. Now, it worries me that the Blackfish info could be bogus, this is the most conniving player we know and by that moment he knew Sansa doesn't want him, so maybe he made up that story (which seems possible) to lead them to a trap, maybe not to harm them but to "rescue" them just in time...yes, a lot of maybes. In truth, I have no clue what LF's next move could be.

Arya
I have a feeling that even if she becomes faceless she will never stop being Arya, and when she takes revenge on her own she'll be doomed.

Meereen
Another Red Priestess that claims to know who's the one that was promised, and many speculate that Jon and Dany will end up ruling, I doubt that theory will come to be, anyway, Varys' face when she tells him about that time he was cut was priceless.

Bran
Best Bran storyline so far. Was it a red flag to see Hodor and Meera happily talking about breakfast? :(
I'm surprised how much it saddened me Hodor's death, truly heartbreaking, but his story arc came to full circle in great way, before that, Summer dying made me yell to the tv a loud 'nooooooo', the last ten minutes were intense.
How a girl pulling a big ass teen will outrun a horde of whitewalkers? (didn't see next episode's tease)


Why did Jon left Ghost at Castle Black? At this point probably safer...


you guys might want to check out this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 11:48:01 AM
What an elegantly constructed episode. It started out subdued and brooding and gradually increased in intensity from there. It definitely worked to spread Bran's scenes throughout, building to that climax. Who knew they could end two episodes in a row like this?

"Hold the door" plus the time loop was more than enough to blow my mind. And it was so dense! This is the first episode in a while where I know I need to re-watch it to fully understand what's actually going on. Mostly for those final minutes. And for the stage play — for some reason it totally fascinated me how pop culture in this world is rewriting history in subtle ways. Also, I loved that GoT was like, guess what, we want to show you this play in its entirety, so we're going long. Take it or leave it.

It was not great to hear Sansa talk about her injuries, but I suppose it was necessary, and locating it in that confrontation with Littlefinger seemed appropriate. The nights of the Vale are going to ride in and help whether she likes it or not, right?

The scene with Dany and Jorah really got me. As much as this season is ratcheting up the tension, it's also a time for resolutions.

There's no way Arya is staying with the faceless guys, right? She does not seem comfortable killing random people for money, nor does she seem to have any deep belief in this Many-Faced God. I mean, this is actually a fairly sinister thing that she should probably get away from. It is literally a death cult. I assume she's just going to use her training for her own purposes once she inevitably splits.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 23, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
The hardest thing to do in any storytelling medium is create an emotional payoff that is simultaneously earned and unexpected. "Hold the door" could have entire essays written about how elegantly it was set up and how profoundly powerful the moment was as a result.

Another thing I love about it is how it allows every viewer to put the pieces together in their head before it makes the link explicit. They ultimately make it impossible to miss, but when you figure it out yourself in the minutes or seconds prior to that, it lets you have that incredible click moment, like it knocks the air out of you.

It's amazing how, because of that ending, we'll all remember this as one of the all-time great GoT episodes, when really everything up to that moment was essentially just fine. But holy shit, did they stick the landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 23, 2016, 02:08:14 PM
yeah, you know that a show is great when it makes people shout at the tv. my girlfriend realized what was going on some seconds before me and I was like yelling "what!? what!?" before I understood as well. for me, this worked way better then the ending of last episode.

have you seen this btw?

posted april 2014:

https://ventrellaquest.com/tag/game-of-thrones/

"Me:  I finally figured out why you have a character named "Hodor."
Martin:  Oh?
Me:  I was thinking about your comment about wanting to be an elevator operator.  It's clear to me now that "Hodor" is short for "Hold the door."
Martin:  (laughing)  You don't know how close to the truth you are!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 03:51:59 PM
I keep thinking of other random things I appreciated...

Wights flooding the weirwood tree. Then rushing through that tunnel, on the floors, walls, and ceiling. So creepy and terrifying.

Leaf slowly pushing the (dragonglass?) shard into the man's chest to create the first white walker. That image is definitely staying with me. (I assume that was the Night's King.)

I'm excited about the idea of Yara and Theon stealing the Daenerys tip from Yuron (who is pretty horrible and apparently wants to murder them?) and doing it for themselves. First time I've ever rooted for the Iron Island folks.

I love how Littlefinger was forced to shut up while Sansa lectured him. It was fascinating seeing him afraid to speak for much of that scene. He didn't even dare to express much sympathy — and the little that he did express ("I'm so so sorry") seemed genuine, actually.

I would be interested in his character getting more complicated. Like, make sure the mustache twirling doesn't get dialed up any further, and maybe even dial it back. What if he actually does want to see Sansa ascend in power?

And, with his finger to the wind, what if he has something great to offer Daenerys, perhaps brokering an alliance between the Starks and Dany? Would Varys even allow Littlefinger to meet the queen?

If not that, I think it's equally plausible that Littlefinger's chain of power plays might be coming to a natural end. Who even trusts him anymore? Not Sansa. Not any other Starks. Not Varys. Not Royce. Not the Lannisters, really. (I recall Cersei, not even the greatest of minds, being very skeptical in their last meeting.) The only person who definitely trusts him is a mentally deficient boy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 04:54:34 PM
So this time loop, do we think it'll be explained further? Or will it just stay in the "that was pretty cool, but lets not think about it too hard" zone that most time travel related things live in?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 04:59:21 PM
Quote from: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 04:54:34 PM
So this time loop, do we think it'll be explained further? Or will it just stay in the "that was pretty cool, but lets not think about it too hard" zone that most time travel related things live in?

I think it's going to continue to be crucial to Bran's ongoing impact on the story. There are a lot of theories about certain aspects of the story's history that could be tied into this ability (the Mad King's voices in his head, for example).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2016, 06:14:13 PM
I don't think it needs more explanation, necessarily. As they say on Lost: whatever happened, happened. If I'm willing to accept time travel, I'm also willing to accept time loops. They make more sense than the alternative, which is seeing one version of reality play out, and then seeing time travel change that.

But I like that mad king theory. And...

SPECULATION SPOILERS

If GoT really wants to go down the rabbit hole, they'll follow the "Bran the originator" theory. Under this theory, Bran went back in time to build the wall (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4kt746/everything_a_young_bran_told_the_first_storm_king/). And he might have done a lot more.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_the_Builder
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 06:39:59 PM
I want and expect them to go all the way down the rabbit hole and come out the other side. I've long felt that a major theme of the overarching story is that the events of history are essentially an immovable force, that the players of the game are more swept up in the wave than they actually affect it, despite all their vanities to the contrary. How perfect a culmination of that thesis would it be to discover in the end that the whole of this world's history is a closed causal loop?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 06:48:38 PM
Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 07:05:18 PM
Quote from: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 06:48:38 PM
Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?

I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2016, 07:27:18 PM
Totally agree. Another example is the prophecy told to Cersei. Knowing the prophecy does absolutely nothing to prevent its fulfillment, because it was always going to happen. In fact, Cersei learning the prophecy might have been a prerequisite for the prophecy itself existing and being true. That has nothing to do with time travel, but it's the same principle.

I'm ready for the rabbit hole. I really am. I only have some skepticism to guard myself from getting too excited.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 24, 2016, 09:38:57 PM
Great posts guys, keep'em coming.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2016, 06:14:13 PM
SPECULATION SPOILERS

If GoT really wants to go down the rabbit hole, they'll follow the "Bran the originator" theory. Under this theory, Bran went back in time to build the wall (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4kt746/everything_a_young_bran_told_the_first_storm_king/). And he might have done a lot more.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_the_Builder

maybe he doesn't build it but like Inception he puts the idea through warging and then it gets built by whoever...

--- --- ---

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 11:48:01 AM
It was not great to hear Sansa talk about her injuries, but I suppose it was necessary, and locating it in that confrontation with Littlefinger seemed appropriate. The nights of the Vale are going to ride in and help whether she likes it or not, right?

I'm not so sure, and the more I think about Littlefinger telling her about the Blackfish the more I don't believe him. Sansa told him to go back to Moat Cailin but that is a Bolton stronghold, in fact it's the one that made Ramsey a Bolton when Reek passed as Theon to fool the Iron Born, so why would LF be there?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 10:50:31 PM
Quote from: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 07:05:18 PM
I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. But from a dramatic storytelling standpoint, you can only get away with that so many times.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 30, 2016, 01:17:32 AM
I'm sure there's going to be a chorus of "nothing happened!" in response to this episode, but on balance it was equally exciting to me as last week's.

Then again, maybe I'm being unfair and people (six seasons in) are starting to figure out what "happened" means in Game of Thrones. Complex plots don't just create themselves. The show has to actually do it. And I for one love seeing all these narrative screws turning. Partly because the show is really helping us make those anticipatory connections. For example, Benjen tells Bran that the Night King will come to the world of men and you'll be waiting for him... then it immediately cuts to Daenerys discussing her plans to conquer Westeros. Get it? Daenerys will be there too, and she'll have a dragon. (I have Bran warging into a dragon at 95% now. I can't wait to see Drogon's eyes roll back in his head — that's going to break people's brains.)

Daenerys's speech and show of power really worked for me, too. I know it sort of came out of nowhere (except it didn't, discussed above), but something clicked. Maybe it was the majesty of Drogon. Maybe it was the satisfaction of seeing her connection with the Dothraki reaffirmed.

Maybe it was my ever-increasing desire to see King's Landing scorched with dragon fire. As Aegon said in Bran's vision, burn them all. Seriously. Margaery included.

She is a bit of a mystery to me right now. What's really going on there? I'd wager it's a cynical play to get maximum power for herself, but that's so dark. Shutting out her family and potentially collapsing House Tyrell? Is she that dark? Is that even a smart move?

Here's what should happen: King's Landing remains overrun with religious zealots, and it just gets worse, forcing Cersei out of the capital. (But the Tyrells stay there, because their family is captive.) Jaime's encounter at River Run leads him to ally with the Starks to turn against Frey and Bolton and take back Winterfell. The Starks are willing to accept his help because he convinces them the Red Wedding etc. was Tywin's thing. Perhaps Jaime asks them to help him take back King's Landing, but they're lukewarm on the idea. Before that can materialize (remember this all takes a while), White Walkers appear, and the battle begins. They actually get into or near King's Landing, fulfilling Daenerys's vision of the frozen throne. They're defeated by wildfire (which is in King's Landing, as we were reminded of this week) and dragons — echoing what Aegon did — plus soldiers with dragonglass arrows and a select few with Valyrian steel. Daenerys rules, and Jaime is allowed to hang out there in some capacity, just in case she goes mad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 30, 2016, 02:10:48 AM
I'm gonna take your juxtaposition theory with the Bran/Daenerys scenes and accept them. Because otherwise that Dany scene sucked. It served no other purpose than to show that she has dragons, is a badass, and has a faithful army, all things which we already know. AND we've already ended episodes/seasons on all those notes.

I did, for the first time in a while, love the Arya scenes. Finally she's coming to her senses. Can't wait to see where that goes.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

I loved everything else. Don't misinterpret this as a hate post. Just a little frustrated with certain storylines. I like JB's "What should happen." They seem to be building toward another war, and we understand all the working pieces better and better now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 31, 2016, 03:34:15 PM
Quote from: Tictacbk on May 30, 2016, 02:10:48 AMI'm gonna take your juxtaposition theory with the Bran/Daenerys scenes and accept them. Because otherwise that Dany scene sucked. It served no other purpose than to show that she has dragons, is a badass, and has a faithful army, all things which we already know. AND we've already ended episodes/seasons on all those notes.

I can feel the showrunners' urge to end episodes with inspirational Daenerys moments whenever possible. But I think this one, however sudden, was important. More than anything, as all these worlds are starting to converge, they're reminding us to root for Daenerys.

It's funny. Some people complain about the repetitive and laborious nature of Daenerys's journey, but that's exactly the point. This what it takes in this world to pull off something so audacious. You might have to give more than a few inspirational speeches. Even if you have dragons and magic and fate on your side, you will constantly face complications and setbacks. Daenerys is getting better at turning those into opportunities and forward momentum. If she's victorious, it's going to be hard-won.

Also, I think we really needed to see proof that the Dothroki are 100% with her. Yes, this was a very theatrical and chest-thumping way to do it, but that's precisely what the Dothraki respond to. Daenerys's talk about Khal Drogo wasn't for nothing; she's getting back to her roots, culturally and spiritually, to the point of delivering a new version of Khal Drogo's speech. I thought it was powerful and completely substantive.

Quote from: Tictacbk on May 30, 2016, 02:10:48 AMAre there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

He's Jon's R&D guy for white walkers, so I think Sam is going to be crucial. Assuming he does get to the citadel, he'll no doubt discover a few key secrets. I hope he can design his own major, because there are specific things he needs to be studying right now.

Maybe he learns about wildfire and gets the idea to use it against the dead. (Then he convinces Jon that they need the wildfire from King's Landing?) Sam will surely discover Jon's parentage, right? I'd like a montage of Sam figuring that out combined with Bran seeing the conclusion of his Tower of Joy vision. (Although, Bran's quickfire vision in this episode has some major hints.)

The prevailing theory is that Jorah (now on a knowledge-finding mission) will meet Samwell in the Citadel, and this is what will eventually bring Daenerys and Jon together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 31, 2016, 06:30:31 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 30, 2016, 01:17:32 AM
(Margaery) is a bit of a mystery to me right now. What's really going on there? I'd wager it's a cynical play to get maximum power for herself, but that's so dark. Shutting out her family and potentially collapsing House Tyrell? Is she that dark? Is that even a smart move?

Margaery is probably the craftiest character in the entire story to this point. I think she's recognized that direct opposition to the church is doomed to failure, and she recognized the craving for power in the High Sparrow's little origin story he regaled her with a couple weeks ago. The smart play for her, and she is a smart player, is to let him have that power, at least temporarily. The question remains, can she maintain control over the strategy, or is the High Sparrow even more cunning than she gives him credit for? My money's on the latter.

Quote from: Tictacbk on May 30, 2016, 02:10:48 AM
Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sam gets a hero arc similar to Neville Longbottom in the Harry Potter series. He's steadily gathering courage, he's probably the most single-mindedly good and kind person in this entire story universe, and now he has a motherfucking Valyrian steel sword. Sam is 100% going to have a major role in the climax of this story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2016, 12:11:55 PM
Margaery
The first thing I noticed when they were at the temple's steps is that she had her hair untouched, then it became clear why, this was a power play on her part, I'm not entirely convinced she's 'really' turned to the faith but what I don't think will happen is that she will betray her family, all these events seem to be going to fulfill Cersei's prophecy and she loses everything, speaking of...


Cersei
So her champion will be the mountain, no surprise there, but I wonder who will be the Sparrow's...and I think it could be Loras, that's going to be his atonement. Although I read a spoilery rumor of someone else that could be the Sparrow's champion...whoever ends up facing the mountain who is practically a zombie, my money is on the Sparrow's champion defeating him (it) and so Cersei is doomed...


Arya
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 11:48:01 AM
There's no way Arya is staying with the faceless guys, right? She does not seem comfortable killing random people for money, nor does she seem to have any deep belief in this Many-Faced God. I mean, this is actually a fairly sinister thing that she should probably get away from. It is literally a death cult. I assume she's just going to use her training for her own purposes once she inevitably splits.
Good prediction JB. So now the question is, where will she go? And if the faceless are after her she is pretty much doomed, maybe not this season (I hope) but eventually she will die, right?


Sam
Yet another terrible father that has his head so far up his ass he can't fucking see how smart is his son and sometimes that is better than brute force.
Sam's story isn't boring to me actually, in fact I'm curious what will happen when he gets to the citadel, how the Maesters will receive him (them), what will they say when he shares his knowledge about whitewalkers, wights, dragon glass, valyrian steel...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2016, 12:30:02 PM
I recently heard a theory that Jaqen is simultaneously (or even primarily) testing the Waif. This assignment seemed specifically designed so that Arya would reject it. Jaqen already knew what would happen, and he knew Arya would not be staying with them. The Waif, meanwhile, does actually need to be tested. She is getting way too emotionally invested.

You can go further with this. "She has a point" could be slyly referring to Needle. "Shame... a girl has many gifts" could be referring (in disappointment) to the Waif, not Arya.

Maybe Jaqen also simply wants to see who is the superior assassin. Although even when Arya inevitably wins, he'll need a reason to let her go. The fact that a face has been added to the hall either way (paraphrasing Jaqen) might be enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2016, 02:14:20 PM
 :shock: :yabbse-smiley:

I love your theory to death, and we need it to be true. Otherwise, if we take the conversation between Jaqen and the Waif literally, Arya is doomed and will be dead no matter what.

one question, I watched that conversation (J&W) again and 'she has a point' isn't mentioned, did that happen in another episode?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2016, 02:39:04 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 01, 2016, 02:14:20 PMI watched that conversation (J&W) again and 'she has a point' isn't mentioned, did that happen in another episode?

Yeah, that happened last week. The Waif says to Arya "you'll never be one of us" and Jaqen adds "she has a point." Then he walks into the other room and explains that the faceless men were poor, they founded Braavos, etc.

Speaking of which, who would want to live in Braavos? At its center is this unaccountable death cult who could be hired at any time to assassinate you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2016, 11:19:05 PM
Margaery is truly next-level. It's actually a shame that she's going to lose King's Landing in the end. Maybe she escapes and hooks up with Littlefinger.

I just saw a theory that she will try to seduce the High Septon. Wouldn't that be nuts? If she could actually do that, it might work. I wonder what her time scale is; I imagine her subterfuge needs to be carried out before Loras confesses. She absolutely intends to get Tommen killed, right? What do people think she's planning?

Generally loved the episode. I'm completely and utterly under the show's spell this season. I felt physical pain when I saw the episode was ending in 20 minutes.

That's all for now, but I'm sure I'll have more to say this week.

Quibbles:

- The director of this episode needs to learn how to have people interrupt each other. Rule #1, do not have the first speaker trail off before they get interrupted. You failed before we even got to Rule #2.

- Arya getting stabbed has very little impact, because there is absolutely no chance she's dying right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 06, 2016, 08:04:26 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2016, 11:19:05 PM
Margaery is truly next-level. It's actually a shame that she's going to lose King's Landing in the end. Maybe she escapes and hooks up with Littlefinger.

I just saw a theory that she will try to seduce the High Septon. Wouldn't that be nuts? If she could actually do that, it might work. I wonder what her time scale is; I imagine her subterfuge needs to be carried out before Loras confesses. She absolutely intends to get Tommen killed, right? What do people think she's planning?

It would pretty crushing/awesome if High Sparrow never believed her at all in the first place and just wants to see where she's going with her plan- and in the end he reveals that he knew her game from the start and wipes her out and the other Tyrells.

I'm not sure she intends to kill Tommen. I definitely think she wants High Sparrow killed and his troops rendered powerless.
I think she wants a situation where her family is safe and she and Tommen rule without any influence from High Sparrow or any remaining Lannisters. She can easily manipulate Tommen so in this scenario, she would technically be the most powerful person in Westeros. Pretty fair endgame for her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2016, 01:10:53 PM
I've seen a few people missing this, so I'll throw it in. The Tyrell sigil is a rose, and their house words are "growing stronger." So the meaning of Margaery's note was crystal clear: hang in there, I have a plan, and I'm doing it for the Tyrells. The show also tipped us off that she was 100% sincere, because she almost cried when saying goodbye to Olenna.

Here's the logic problem for me right now, though. Presumably part of Margaery's plan is conceive a boy with Tommen. And the conventional wisdom is that he'll die by the end of this season. How can she be sure that's happened in that amount of time? Also, how can she possibly execute her plan before Loras is forced to confess? I'm seeing a long-term plan with short-term obstacles... or maybe I'm not seeing it at all.

Margaery seducing the High Septon is legitimately one of her best options — although that would be so difficult to pull off that if she does, we should just declare her the winner of the whole game of thrones.

Her best play is to disgrace or delegitimize the High Septon in some way. So I guess this is my prediction. Margaery first leverages her popularity and her reputation as a champion of the people. Maybe she starts an initiative to help the poor, to butter them up. Then, she exposes a financial or moral scandal within the church. It could be a discovery, but it's more likely that she frames them. For example, she could tearfully reveal to Tommen that the High Septon sexually assaulted her, and/or that she saw him assault Loras or something. That could then be revealed in the public square, with the king at her side, and the people would physically support them in removing the church from power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 07, 2016, 11:45:21 PM
Margaery
Her story got really interesting, she's playing the long con and probably will work, but, like you said if the Sparrow is on her this will blow up on her (their) faces beautifully.

I didn't get what that rose meant, so...of those theories I don't see Tommen getting killed by Tyrell hands, and if he does and even if she's pregnant, what is the protocol here? There are no more Baratheons to take the throne, so, would her uncle Kevan rules until the baby is born? and it has to be a boy or else they're fucked...

While i like your theory of the Septon being tempted by Margaery, I also don't see him falling for that play.

As for your prediction it sounds good, but I wonder if with three episodes left there's enough time to see an outcome.

Cersei vs Queen of Thorns
This was my favorite scene of the episode, I even felt bad for Cersei, I want her to have at least one more triumph, but it seems that whatever she does she won't win in the end.


Sansa
She's writing Littlefinger right? They are way too short on men and he already offered and they are running out of houses to support them.

Arya
I'm pretty confident that she will live, and yes that stabbing scene didn't have a huge impact.


The Hound
He lives! Who killed all those people? The brotherhood? That doesn't make sense, they were harmless. This story doesn't make much sense to me, we'll see where they take the hound.

Spoilery speculation, there's talk that the Hound could be the one that fights his brother, but how will he get there? also he's wanted for treason so...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2016, 11:35:34 AM
The season finale is 69 minutes long, which will technically be the longest GoT episode to date.

Re: Fernando

I'm starting to think Tommen will survive this season, because (1) Margaery conceiving a male heir with Tommen is too important and (2) Tommen is still useful to her as a chess piece. But that all supposes that things will go her way.

Yes, we're supposed to understand that the Brotherhood Without Banners — maybe even just those 3 guys — killed those people. This apparently suggests that the Brotherhood has become corrupt, because they used to protect the "small folk," right? Or they're under the command of a very cold-hearted new leader.

I'm also convinced that Sansa is enlisting Littlefinger's help. I would have preferred him riding in without permission to save the day, but I guess that's already been done by Stannis.

There are some very wacky theories about Arya right now. One is that the Arya we saw is actually Jaqen, and that the Waif failed his test rather spectacularly (twisting the knife etc.). He will then enlist Arya to kill the Waif. Not sure I believe this, but it's interesting.

And now, the craziest theory I've heard all season: When Qyburn reanimated the Mountain, he used Joffrey's head. This would explain his purple face and blue eyes. Of course if that's true, it must be revealed to Cersei at some point in the most horrifying way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on June 10, 2016, 04:58:03 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2016, 11:35:34 AM

And now, the craziest theory I've heard all season: When Qyburn reanimated the Mountain, he used Joffrey's head. This would explain his purple face and blue eyes. Of course if that's true, it must be revealed to Cersei at some point in the most horrifying way.

This is bonkers. Joffrey's head wouldn't be that big even if you stuffed FOUR cabbages into it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2016, 05:25:59 PM
I dunno, poisoned heads can get very bloated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on June 10, 2016, 07:27:42 PM
My god that would be terrifying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 11, 2016, 09:56:22 PM
That Joffrey theory is crazy, the show hasn't made any allusions that it could happen, also Qyburn isn't that evil on the show and he seems to really like Cersei, so no way it will happen but if it does, it will be the greatest reveal ever and Cersei would certainly loose her mind.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2016, 11:35:34 AM
There are some very wacky theories about Arya right now. One is that the Arya we saw is actually Jaqen, and that the Waif failed his test rather spectacularly (twisting the knife etc.). He will then enlist Arya to kill the Waif. Not sure I believe this, but it's interesting.

That would be amazing, but I really don't have any clue how and who will save her, only that it will happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 12, 2016, 11:00:04 PM
Alright, so the end of Arya's faceless arc didn't get weird. They exercised a lot of artistic license letting her survive the severe gut wound (did the actress patch up her intestines?), but otherwise it followed the most logical and straightforward path, which is probably for the best.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2016, 12:30:02 PMYou can go further with this. "She has a point" could be slyly referring to Needle. "Shame... a girl has many gifts" could be referring (in disappointment) to the Waif, not Arya.

Maybe Jaqen also simply wants to see who is the superior assassin. Although even when Arya inevitably wins, he'll need a reason to let her go. The fact that a face has been added to the hall either way (paraphrasing Jaqen) might be enough.

^ I think that turned out to be true. Jaqen did not seem especially surprised — if he had any emotion at all, it was delight. Side note: it was brilliant how the Waif was so excited running after Arya, then at the end she looked sad the chase was over.

This episode was so much fun. Everything with Jaime and Brienne, Podrich and Bronn, the Hound and the brotherhood, the Mountain and that poor headless man. I was once again dreading the end of the episode. Just wanted to live in this world forever.

The politics feel just as compelling as the action right now. Everything that happened at Riverrun was fascinating and illuminated how hierarchies and titles can lead to very absurd results.

Is it just me, or was this episode visually striking in a very satisfying and meaningful way? That opening close-up of the actress. That shot of Tommen walking away from the throne. The cramped feeling of the Mountain/faith confrontation. That perfectly-framed overhead shot of Arya tumbling down the stairs with oranges and apples.

In retrospect, it seems inevitable that the Faith would end trials by combat. In addition to giving them the edge over Cersei, this also brings the justice system more in line with their style.

So, the rumor. To begin, here's a transcript of that part:

- Your grace. That old rumor you told me about. My little birds investigated.
- And? Is it just a rumor, or something more?
- More. Much more.

"Old rumor" is the giveaway. It has to be about Aerys's hidden caches of wildfire. We've already seen them in Bran's vision. And Jaime, less than 10 minutes later, says this of Catelyn and Cersei: "They'd do anything to save their babies: start a war, burn cities to ash..." I just wonder who would actually deploy the wildfire. The spy kids?

Ideally, her effort should be unsuccessful. Yes, it would weaken King's Landing for the taking, but they probably need that wildfire to defeat the White Walkers. So can Margaery stop her somehow?

As for Mereen... Doesn't this seem like the absolute ideal result? The slavers are bringing their forces to Daenerys, so she can conveniently defeat them once and for all. (Unfortunately, lacking a navy, it looks like they'll have to wait for the attackers to get off the boats before they can actually engage.)

Varys heading off to find ships is veeeery interesting. He's obviously going to the Iron Islands. So, a prediction. Yara & Theon bring ships, Daenerys accepts. Varys brings the rest of the ships and Euron Greyjoy. He will of course be furious that Yara & Theon have already formed the alliance, but surely he'll have anticipated that and come up with some sort of plan. Yara will have warned Dany about Euron, right? So his plan fails, as does his marriage proposal. Daenerys takes his ships.

Man, she's going to have so many ships. Yara's ships, Euron's brand new ships, and the slavers' ships, presumably.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 13, 2016, 12:26:50 AM
I'm generally pleased by the resolution of the Faceless Men storyline, but I was really hoping there would be some crafty explanation for why Arya was acting so insanely reckless and oblivious just prior to her assassination attempt, and not, as turns out to be the case, that the writers just decided she should suddenly be reckless and oblivious even though she knows there's a goddamn ninja death cult with a bounty on her head (or face, as the case may be). I can accept a lot of things in fiction right up to the point where a character acts in a way that contradicts our own extensive understanding of the character. There are a thousand ways they could have put her on that bridge without resorting to making the character suddenly and inexplicably dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 13, 2016, 02:36:35 AM
I never cared for the Faceless Men component of Arya's storyline and I was less than satisfied with the conclusion. Apart from the bizarre beahvior that lead to her the stabbing I'm struggling with her swift recovery, her parkour skills and then the actual conclusion with Jaquen. Was it...supposed to lead somewhere worthwhile? It would have made sense if she ended up some heartless faceless ninja person but she outright defies it and plans to go home. It just seems like a pointless detour. Will the faceless dudes ever turn up again or what? What was truly imparted on Arya except 'nah, this lifestyle isn't for me'?
At least now I know that The Waif would make for a really good Terminator.

Riverrun was quite good and a teensy bit disappointing. Besides the whole Jaimie still in love with Cersei thing, we saw some pretty good character work/acting from all the important players. It is satisfying to see Jaimie kinda moving forward with his character (patiently waiting until he finally severs ties with Cersei). Pretty disappointed by the Blackfish's conclusion even though he would go out fighting.
Shoutout to the dude who plays Edmure, he was a highlight.

That joke scene in Mereen was painful. Bloody hell, it's so upsetting to see Tyrion get sucked further into the Daenerys boredom-spiral. And now Varys is gone which makes it worse. I hope that Theon and Yara can inject some life into that storyline. To me, Theon/Alfie Allen is one of the best things about the show.

Favourite part (beside's Jaimie's negotiations) was The Hound meeting up with The Brotherhood. Love the idea of him joining up and heading up north to fight the WWs. Cleganebowl be damned.

I reckon Cersei's gonna use hidden wildfire and challenge High Sparrow/Tommen, but then her scheme will backfire and a bunch of people will die and King's Landing will end up in a nasty state.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2016, 12:42:27 PM
I agree with Polka; Arya's obliviousness while ostensibly being "on the run" was probably this season's major misstep. However, I thought the way it ended was totally fine...

Quote from: Lottery on June 13, 2016, 02:36:35 AMWas it...supposed to lead somewhere worthwhile? It would have made sense if she ended up some heartless faceless ninja person but she outright defies it and plans to go home. It just seems like a pointless detour. Will the faceless dudes ever turn up again or what? What was truly imparted on Arya except 'nah, this lifestyle isn't for me'?

Were the series ending right now, sure it would be a pointless detour. But this is definitely setting up something important, maybe crucially important.

She hasn't made a reversal at all. Like I was saying before, Arya got what she needed, assassin training. That's all she ever wanted from Jaqen, and she got it. (And she left on good terms, because a face was added to the wall "either way," which Jaqen himself predicted.) She was never interested in the god of death or becoming an automaton. Arya kills for reasons; that's her thing.

In terms of what's next: "I am Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home" is a pretty strong indication of her sense of purpose. The question is, will she actually go home to Winterfell and be like "hey guys I'm a super assassin now, who do y'all need offed?" Or will she continue on her rogue's path, sowing death and chaos among the Starks' enemies?

Furthermore, does the magic of putting on a face carry with her? Does she actually have that power going forward? That hasn't been made clear yet — or if it was, I don't recall. (Since Jaqen tells her "a girl is finally no one," I'm leaning towards yes.) If she gets to keep that, she'll be absolutely unstoppable. If not, she can still kill dudes in the dark real good.

Quote from: Lottery on June 13, 2016, 02:36:35 AMThat joke scene in Mereen was painful. Bloody hell, it's so upsetting to see Tyrion get sucked further into the Daenerys boredom-spiral. And now Varys is gone which makes it worse.

I think that was the point, though. These people are from such vastly different cultures, and they haven't really done battle together or anything, so forming a bond takes a reeeaally long time. (And to be fair, he made significant progress!) As savvy and charismatic as Tyrion is (or thinks he is), they are all a bit lost without Daenerys. There's nothing to center them. Her arrival was so desperately welcome at the end of that scene, which seems to be what they were going for.

But you're right, Tyrion has yet to shine as Daenerys's advisor. And he's weaker without Varys. So that's not great. I have patience, though. Surely his instinct for military tactics (which is legitimately sharp and actually proven) will come into play.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 13, 2016, 06:58:50 PM
Beyond her getting elite assassin skills, the payoff just seems so underwhelming- especially considering the amount of time that was spent on that particular storyline. I'm happy that she reaffirmed her identity but I'm still pretty displeased with how things were handled. I'm hoping that the consequences of this storyline will gradually manifest itself in the coming seasons- with Jaquen's final 'a girl is finally no one etc' having a meaning that she doesn't understand yet. But I'm not holding my breath.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2016, 12:42:27 PM
I think that was the point, though. These people are from such vastly different cultures, and they haven't really done battle together or anything, so forming a bond takes a reeeaally long time. (And to be fair, he made significant progress!) As savvy and charismatic as Tyrion is (or thinks he is), they are all a bit lost without Daenerys. There's nothing to center them. Her arrival was so desperately welcome at the end of that scene, which seems to be what they were going for.

Yeah, I thought that the scene was attempting to bring the three together- I swear they've already demonstrated their awkward dynamic before in a similar manner in a previous scene. But I think the scene was supposed to be almost heartwarming (by the end) but I was left cringing instead. Probably just demonstrating some sort of human connection before killing 1 of the 3 off.
Tyrion has had a dull season. He's a superb character but he definitely becomes stagnant without a constantly moving world/conflict. Fairly realistic depiction of a depressed alcoholic though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2016, 07:37:11 PM
Hmm, yeah, I think that's all pretty fair. I've been skeptical of Arya's storyline for a very long time. But I've learned that the show can have surprising payoffs. So as long as the character in question is not locked in a rape room being abused for shock value, I make an effort to be open-minded.

Arya's quest has been so thoroughly baked into the show from the beginning, that in my mind an epic payoff is becoming less of a hope and more of an assumption.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 19, 2016, 10:09:14 PM
BEST. EPISODE. EVER.

Those are all the words I have right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 19, 2016, 11:18:16 PM
Most people seem to be loving this episode. However, I've seen the Sansa vs. Jon business being criticized, i.e. why in God's name didn't she tell him?

It was a risky choice for sure, but I think this episode made it abundantly clear that when it comes to military strategy, Jon Snow most definitely knows nothing. He was unwilling to listen to Sansa's advice (even after she called him out on that). Namely, (1) that Rickon is dead no matter what and (2) that Ramsay would set an irresistible trap. Both came to pass, and Jon was a gullible idiot.

The only way to defeat Ramsay was with an actual surprise attack. Because these are the alternatives:


Scenario #1

INT. JON'S WAR TENT - DUSK

Sansa: So check this out. Littlefinger's army is totally... maybe... on its way. I think.

Jon: Uhh...

Sansa: No confirmation yet. Sorry.

Jon: What are you on about, girl?

Sansa: Baelish is totes on his way. Do I have to say it a third time?

Jon: Even if he is, we can't trust him.

Jon (whispering to Davos): That's his thing, right?

Davos (whispering back): Aye, Jon. I've heard he's an untrustworthy fellow.

Sansa: Bro, trust me, I have a feeling. My instincts are razor sharp for real.

Jon: Nope.

Sansa: Yuh huh! Just wait one more day, pleeease?

Jon: He's probably going to betray us and turn the battle in Ramsay's favor. Eff that. We're attacking at first light!

Sansa: *Sigh*

Jon: For the North! *Runs out of the tent waving his sword around*


Scenario #2

The Knights of the Vale combine forces with Jon's army. Ramsay sees this, and being a very smart strategist, he keeps his forces inside Winterfell. They now have what is possibly an insurmountable advantage. The Knights of the Vale were enough to finish off the Boltons, but were they enough to actually siege Winterfell against an endless barrage of arrows and who knows what else? Not likely.

Feels like this was the way to win. Their victory was basically dependent upon Jon being dumb and Sansa being smart. (In fact, they make a pretty good combination.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 12:30:40 AM
A BRIEF ASIDE (and yes, I'm sure I'll make even more posts). The AV Club "expert" review of this ep is absolutely confounding. Commenters are equally confused. I don't know if I've more fully disagreed with anything in... months?

In a nutshell, the reviewer wanted more subtlety and thought the battle was overblown, reaching for spectacle where none was necessary. He also did not like that there were emotional and thematic payoffs — because he doesn't remember the suffering that dominated last season? Because he doesn't realize that we're approaching the end of this whole story, so payoffs are going to happen? (Does he want any payoffs at all in this thing, or does he want it to fizzle out and collapse on itself in a heap of defeated sadness?)

Anyway, don't read the review, but do read these epic responses from the comments:



* * * * *

Yeah, this was an okay episode, but it really could've used a few more thematically rich pastoral elegies. Also, it was really inconsistent in its application of Plutarchan love sonnets, which I know about because I went to TV Critic School and therefore demand to see more of on Game of Thrones.

* * * * *

"But, as the title of the review suggests, to what end? If we think about "Battle Of The Bastards" in context of its three predecessors, I'm not convinced that this battle ends up accomplishing much of anything beyond sound and fury. "

I knew it. I fucking knew it. One of the best episodes of TV ever and Myles nitpicks it for not pandering to whatever vague, needlessly dense academic theory he wanted to apply to it.

Myles, let me explain criticism to you: There's academic criticism, where you stare at a blank wall until patterns begin to emerge and you write six thousand pages about the patterns you saw as though that accurately portrays what you saw, and there's functional criticism, which is when you and your friends watch The Force Awakens and say it was awesome because it was fun and had great characters and dialogue.

You ask "To what end?". Welp, off the top of my head:

1) To advance and consolidate crucial plot elements, including the restoration of Stark power for the first time since Season 1 (This is kind of important)

2) To set up future story elements including, most likely, Littlefinger's power grab.

3) To take advantage of this narrative opportunity to have huge, visceral, awesome battle.

4) To explore how the characters would react in such circumstances.

Advance the plot, reveal the characters, have a fun time doing both. Boom. That's criticism. No need to masturbate to thematically rich pastoral elegies, complete with links to Wikipedia articles because you know no one caught that reference.

If you reviewed Star Wars, you'd ask if we needed a lightsaber duel with Darth Vader, or criticize Raiders of the Lost Ark for inconsistently applying its theme of Homelessness.

* * * * *

Man, I've always been in general agreement with McNutt. I think he is a very astute critic and consistently engages with this show at a much higher level than most other TV reviewers on this site (or really anywhere). But I deeply disagree with this reading.

I think this show has reached the point where the good guy defeating the bad guy is not cliche, but rather a narrative subversion. I can't be the only one who fully expected Ramsay to survive this episode, and for the "good guys" to suffer far more significant casualties than they did. This isn't a boring, predictable result of a hero v. villain battle. This is John Snow finally clawing his way out from underneath the bodies crushing him - the first gasp of hope in a series that goes out of its way to show you how hope is futile.

* * * * *

Sorry, I couldn't hear this B grade over the sounds of me shipping Yara and Daenerys so hard.

* * * * *
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
I'm not sure if it was the best episode ever (I like episode 7 a lot, despite Arya's stupidity) but this was really, really good. After a whole lot of setting and building up, it's nice to have that big 'release episode'.

- That's the best battle scenes I've seen in a very long time. The part where Jon was getting crushed was really intense, almost had some trouble breathing myself. All medieval battle scenes should aspire to the sheer chaos and brutality of the one in this episode. Truly exceptional.

- Jon is a god-level warrior but a pretty lame tactician by the looks of things (or he's a bit easy to emotionally compromise). But seriously, come on Sansa, at least let Jonny know about the Vale dudes coming. They both kinda let down the team here.
Or maybe Sansa was willing to let Jon die for her battle plan to succeed. I wonder if there will be a point where Jon becomes merely an obstacle to her.

- I'm so glad that Davos finally learned the truth. Another superb scene. Patiently waiting for him to cut Melisandre to pieces.

- Mereen was pretty great too aside from that weirdly smug Yara and Theon scene. But even that scene had purpose to it and we're  getting closer and closer to bridging the two worlds.
The dragon attack looked fantastic and I also liked Tyrion's presence in this one.

- Must have been hell tyring to shoot this episode.

- Poor Rickon didn't have any dialogue in this one- his last one either. Kinda unfortunate how little we saw of him over the duration of the show.

- While Littlefinger's support was valuable in this episode, I'm very nervous thinking about what he plans to do next. I'm hoping this more active Sansa will find a way to stay out of his control.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 20, 2016, 08:54:58 AM
Best episode ever? I thought it was immediately after it finished. It might very well not be, but it definitely feels like the best episode we've had for 2-3 seasons at least. Wonderfully directed too.

Love the epic scope of everything - the giant battle in Mereen, the giant battle in Winterfell. All the piece-placing episodes are finally paying off. And if this is how GoT pays things off, it gives me a lot of hope for the final two shortened seasons, which I had been regarding with some trepidation knowing that we were getting toward the end.

The bridges between stories are *finally* being built and it feels like the train is just going to keep on accelerating to the end from here on out.

JB, you hit the nail on the head with your analysis of why Sansa didn't tell Jon.

Also, this: "This is John Snow finally clawing his way out from underneath the bodies crushing him - the first gasp of hope in a series that goes out of its way to show you how hope is futile."

I feel lucky that I hadn't watched for a few weeks so caught up with the past two eps on Friday and Saturday so I could watch this one live. It definitely felt like this run had a vitality and momentum that was absent in some of this season's earlier episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 11:08:43 AM
Quote from: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AMI'm not sure if it was the best episode ever (I like episode 7 a lot, despite Arya's stupidity) but this was really, really good.
Quote from: Sleepless on June 20, 2016, 08:54:58 AMBest episode ever? I thought it was immediately after it finished. It might very well not be, but it definitely feels like the best episode we've had for 2-3 seasons at least. Wonderfully directed too.

I might still be filled with adrenaline, but the next day I basically feel the same. This is in my top 3 for sure, assuming I could actually come up with a list. Certainly there have been more mindblowing moments in other episodes. But this one does stand apart as being densely packed with things that I love about the show, from beginning to end, executed almost perfectly. It offered such sublime pleasure over and over again, with those deep feelings of victory and dread combining intensely and endlessly. This was one of the most profound television experiences I've had. The opening chapter with Daenerys turned me into malleable mush, and the rest of the episode just had its way with me.

Quote from: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AMBut seriously, come on Sansa, at least let Jonny know about the Vale dudes coming. They both kinda let down the team here. Or maybe Sansa was willing to let Jon die for her battle plan to succeed. I wonder if there will be a point where Jon becomes merely an obstacle to her.

I think my post above is a decent response to those concerns, but I also think you're right — Sansa was determined to take Winterfell back, pretty much at any cost. She has a clearer view of reality than most characters in this series (her point about Rickon being a good example) and has no time for sentimentality anymore. Jon, even with all he's been through, seems to possess half of her intelligence and emotional fortitude.

I never, ever, ever thought they could justify Sansa being locked in a rape room for several episodes, but by God, they might have just done it. I literally don't see how the book can bring Sansa's character to the same place without her involvement with Ramsay. My biggest problem with this whole series appears to be fading away before my eyes, and I did not expect that to happen.

To your point, I think Jon will get out of the way. Sansa will rule Winterfell, most likely with Littlefinger at her side in some capacity. Jon will do what he does best — fight the white walkers.

Quote from: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AMWhile Littlefinger's support was valuable in this episode, I'm very nervous thinking about what he plans to do next. I'm hoping this more active Sansa will find a way to stay out of his control.

I think it's in his immediate self-interest to put his betrayal spree on hold and earn the Starks' trust for a minute. Obviously what he did in this ep was the first step in that direction. Of course he will try to cause more chaos... but wouldn't it be fun to see Sansa get one step ahead of him?

Quote from: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AMMust have been hell tyring to shoot this episode.

If you haven't seen them, the making-of features on HBO Now are fantastic. They publish one with every even-numbered episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 11:40:10 AM
Oh, and Sansa is for sure pregnant with Ramsey's kid. "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now." I honestly can't think of what the benefit of that storyline would be, or where they imagine they're going to go with it, but regardless, they're going there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 11:40:10 AM
Oh, and Sansa is for sure pregnant with Ramsey's kid. "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now." I honestly can't think of what the benefit of that storyline would be, or where they imagine they're going to go with it, but regardless, they're going there.

I was worried about that for a second, but I really don't think so — especially because of Sansa's reaction. She wasn't fazed at all. She is in a better position to know whether she's pregnant (especially considering the time they've been apart), but she tells him pointedly that his words will die, his house will die, and no one will remember him. Her knowingly being pregnant would so weirdly undercut her moment of victory that I think we'd see evidence of that.

I think Ramsay simply means that the way he tormented her and changed her means that he will always be a part of her, which is absolutely true, and which Sansa described to Littlefinger. I don't think it's the writers winking at us in any significant way, because that'd be such a gross and counterproductive thing to do in that moment. Would they really think that's a good idea, creatively or otherwise, considering the widespread backlash they experienced after Sansa's wedding night?

More evidence to the contrary. Ramsay doesn't rape Sansa in the books, so giving her a child by him would be so off-story that it would probably be stretching too far in terms of book-to-show changes. Because her producing an heir to Winterfell with Ramsay's blood simply changes too much.

(If she is pregnant, either it results in the first Stark abortion or I turn against Sansa's story again.)

Update: Found this comment: "Abortion does exist in GoT, it's called "Moon Tea" and it has been established in the show since Lysa mentions drinking it to abort Petyr's baby."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 04:04:29 PM
I would be thrilled to be wrong, but there's very little doubt in my mind at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 20, 2016, 04:13:10 PM
I agree entirely with the AV Club review so I'll just disappear.  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 11:40:10 AM
Oh, and Sansa is for sure pregnant with Ramsey's kid. "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now." I honestly can't think of what the benefit of that storyline would be, or where they imagine they're going to go with it, but regardless, they're going there.

I was worried about that for a second, but I really don't think so — especially because of Sansa's reaction. She wasn't fazed at all. She is in a better position to know whether she's pregnant (especially considering the time they've been apart), but she tells him pointedly that his words will die, his house will die, and no one will remember him. Her knowingly being pregnant would so weirdly undercut her moment of victory that I think we'd see evidence of that.

I think Ramsay simply means that the way he tormented her and changed her means that he will always be a part of her, which is absolutely true, and which Sansa described to Littlefinger. I don't think it's the writers winking at us in any significant way, because that'd be such a gross and counterproductive thing to do in that moment. Would they really think that's a good idea, creatively or otherwise, considering the widespread backlash they experienced after Sansa's wedding night?

More evidence to the contrary. Ramsay doesn't rape Sansa in the books, so giving her a child by him would be so off-story that it would probably be stretching too far in terms of book-to-show changes. Because her producing an heir to Winterfell with Ramsay's blood simply changes too much.

Yes, there's no way she's pregnant, in fact it isn't possible because when she ran away it took her probably weeks to reach the wall, then she stayed there probably a couple, then they travel a lot trying to gain support of different houses and that had to take weeks if not months, then gather the army, plan the attack and reach again Winterfell, so even if I'm being conservative it's been at least three months since she saw Ramsey and my real guess is at least six months have passed...


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 11:08:43 AM
Quote from: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AMBut seriously, come on Sansa, at least let Jonny know about the Vale dudes coming. They both kinda let down the team here. Or maybe Sansa was willing to let Jon die for her battle plan to succeed. I wonder if there will be a point where Jon becomes merely an obstacle to her.

I think my post above is a decent response to those concerns, but I also think you're right — Sansa was determined to take Winterfell back, pretty much at any cost. She has a clearer view of reality than most characters in this series (her point about Rickon being a good example) and has no time for sentimentality anymore. Jon, even with all he's been through, seems to possess half of her intelligence and emotional fortitude.

It's because Sansa has learned from the best/worst, their triumphs and mistakes of Cersei, LF and knowing what Ramsey is capable of.
I too thought that Rickon was doomed no matter what and as painful as that was she understood and planned for the best (real) outcome.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 12:07:12 PM
To your point, I think Jon will get out of the way. Sansa will rule Winterfell, most likely with Littlefinger at her side in some capacity. Jon will do what he does best — fight the white walkers.

Agree, it seems there's no point he stays there, question is, will he leave immediately or wait for some news from Castle Black that he and his wildlings are needed, that will be interesting, as for Sansa, she has Winterfell now and...what's next? Will LF still want her to marry the little lord of the Vale? I hope and expect she will take control of things and ultimately she will decide for herself, she cannot go back and let people decide her future.

Quote from: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
- I'm so glad that Davos finally learned the truth. Another superb scene. Patiently waiting for him to cut Melisandre to pieces.

No! It's crazy but I love her character even if she burnt a little girl, I fear for her life and I don't want her to die, I wonder if it comes to that Jon will interfere so Davos doesn't kill her, in fact she's among my top 5 characters in the show so I hope she makes it.



Given that now we're approaching the conclusion I fear less about losing 'the good' characters (Starks, Tyrion, Dany), I don't mean all will live happily no, just that they will survive to be at the final showdown, some against white walkers others at Kingslanding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 05:09:48 PM
Quote from: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 04:04:29 PM
I would be thrilled to be wrong, but there's very little doubt in my mind at this point.

"Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear."

She has no sense of irony while saying this, and I don't think she's delusional, so I don't think she's pregnant. Unless this is prelude to an episode of I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant on TLC Westeros. Bottom line, this would be dumb, and I'm pretty convinced the writers are not making dumb choices right now.

Ramsay's words being literal there would be the stupidest thing all season. Not only because that plot development is a bad choice, but because it undercuts the thematic meaning of that sequence — that Sansa is indeed changed by Ramsay and in the last moment of the episode takes pleasure in killing for the very first time. (Which is arguably more upsetting than a pregnancy.)

For that to be displaced by "oops, I'm preggers" is the kind of self-sabotage the writers are surely not interested in.

Not to mention, as you said, there's no beneficial or interesting direction for this to take. It's a narrative dead end. Because Sansa is absolutely not having Ramsay's baby. This would be that plot in its entirety:


Sansa: Dude, guess what, I'm pregnant! This really sucks.

Littlefinger: Oh my God. Sansa, I can't begin to comprehend what this must —

Sansa: Do you have access to Moon Tea or not?

Littlefinger: Why, yes. I have some in my satchel. There you are. Now, it must be taken according to dir—

Sansa: *Gulp*

Littlefinger: Oh. So uhh. Are you okay?

Sansa: Listen. I just watched thousands of people being slaughtered. None of this is great. And this... pregnancy... is obviously something I thought might happen. So thank you for being prepared. Let's move on.

Littlefinger: Well. Alright. *shuffles papers* Here's the update on Riverrun...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PMYes, there's no way she's pregnant, in fact it isn't possible because when she ran away it took her probably weeks to reach the wall, then she stayed there probably a couple, then they travel a lot trying to gain support of different houses and that had to take weeks if not months, then gather the army, plan the attack and reach again Winterfell, so even if I'm being conservative it's been at least three months since she saw Ramsey and my real guess is at least six months have passed...

Ah right, good call. Also for time scale, think of how much plot transpired with Ramsay in Winterfell during that time. Assassinating Roose Bolton et al., gathering new allies and consolidating his power, preparing his army, sending letters, etc. Also, Littlefinger's journey to and from the Vale takes place after Sansa's escape.


Quote from: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PMIt's because Sansa has learned from the best/worst, their triumphs and mistakes of Cersei, LF and knowing what Ramsey is capable of.

That's a great point. Being dragged around the seven kingdoms as everyone's pawn / punching bag has yielded some benefits. She's seen so much of the world and its rulers, and she's been paying attention.

Quote from: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PMAgree, it seems there's no point he stays there, question is, will he leave immediately or wait for some news from Castle Black that he and his wildlings are needed, that will be interesting, as for Sansa, she has Winterfell now and...what's next? Will LF still want her to marry the little lord of the Vale? I hope and expect she will take control of things and ultimately she will decide for herself, she cannot go back and let people decide her future.

I assume Jon and Bran have to converge at some point in their battle against the white walkers. With Sam hopefully not far behind.

I don't think Sansa is marrying anyone anytime soon. And I don't think she would get any pushback on that from anyone at this point.

This is perhaps the Sansa quote of the episode, after Jon promises to protect her: "No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone."

There's a theory that this is a clever allusion to Arya ("no one") and foreshadowing that Arya might in fact come home and protect the Starks in this tumultuous time.

Quote from: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PMGiven that now we're approaching the conclusion I fear less about losing 'the good' characters (Starks, Tyrion, Dany), I don't mean all will live happily no, just that they will survive to be at the final showdown, some against white walkers others at Kingslanding.

I'm on the same page. I think we're going to see a few more Starks die for sure, but probably not until they've fought honorably in "the war to come." When all of that goes down, the show could kill anyone, really, and that's alright. I think the only character who's guaranteed to survive is Daenerys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 05:46:54 PM
All right, you guys have talked me back from the ledge a little bit. It's just the "I'm a part of you now" line is such a weird fucking thing to have him say there unless it had that subtext.

Anyway, solid episode, great spectacle. I'm thrilled that Dany and Co. are finally going to be heading to the mainland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 10:25:38 PM
Before I rewatch the episode tonight, a couple more comments...

Did people notice that the Vale's war horn was sounded like 2 or 3 times before it was loud and clearly audible? That was such a fascinating choice. As if the first couple times might have been in the viewer's imagination.

...

Quick flashback to Arya's story. Heard something over the weekend that has basically ironed out the Arya weirdness for me. First of all, the actress saying that she patched up Arya was completely bogus. She might have stopped the bleeding, but just barely. At that point, Arya was still in mortal danger, and probably a day or two away from sepsis and death. Even if she did survive, she'd probably be significantly handicapped and would never have normal digestion ever again...

She flees from the Waif and instantly starts bleeding. All it takes is a tumble, and things get much worse. She's in severe mortal danger from her gut wound when she goes zen and finally defeats the Waif. The only reason she survives is that she makes it back to the House of Black and White and drinks from the pool (which previously cured her blindness). I did notice her bloody footsteps leading there, but for some reason the significance didn't register. This is the first time any actual healing takes place. Had she stayed with the actress, she certainly would have died.

As for Arya behaving stupidly, the best explanation is that she just behaved stupidly. Maybe she was trying to draw the Waif out (already had the trap set up) and got too cocky about it. Or had a momentary lapse in judgement. But she certainly learned from that, didn't she? It could be seen as her final lesson.

In fact, Arya is not necessarily known for her caution. She has an impulsive streak. And I guess you can't blame her — Arya starts out as 11 years old in the show. She was 9 years old in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 10:29:39 PM
Quote from: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 05:46:54 PM
All right, you guys have talked me back from the ledge a little bit. It's just the "I'm a part of you now" line is such a weird fucking thing to have him say there unless it had that subtext.

I think he meant that the harm that he did to her will always be there, just like JB already pointed out, in the same way Theon will always carry the remains of Ramsey's physical and psychological torture, although Theon suffered him way longer and literally lost parts of himself.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
I assume Jon and Bran have to converge at some point in their battle against the white walkers. With Sam hopefully not far behind.

Yes, that's the most logical move, an all Stark reunion of Uncle, The Prince that was Promised and Heir.

This story has so much potential of interesting pairings, let's consider that Thoros, Beric and presumably the Hound are heading north. If Melisandre makes it she will meet again Thoros and share stories of bringing people back to life.

Now that Sansa has LF on her side, it's only logical that the Vale will lend part of its army to fight that war, I mean Jon via Sansa should ask for men since they are outnumbered by a large margin.

Then there's Sam as you said he has to eventually meet them again and hopefully share some good knowledge.

In the end Bran is the one that will have the key to defeat the WW, that theory of him warging a Dragon as awesome as that sounds right now seems improbable, let alone that Dany is at the other side of Westeros, she will probably first arrive at the Iron Islands, then King's Landing, settle and then...that's a lot of time and winter is coming.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
This is perhaps the Sansa quote of the episode, after Jon promises to protect her: "No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone."

There's a theory that this is a clever allusion to Arya ("no one") and foreshadowing that Arya might in fact come home and protect the Starks in this tumultuous time.

I like that, although I've been so wrong guessing Arya's story, at some point I had this prediction, GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet, so I thought that when Dany was finally at the Iron Throne the faceless man will give Arya Dany's name and...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 01:32:18 AM
Fair warning, I'll have another post tomorrow, but for now:

Quote from: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 10:29:39 PMGRRM has said the end will be bittersweet

Bittersweet could be perfect. Let's say Daenerys does reunify the seven kingdoms, and the Starks rule the North. That's accomplished by virtue of Jon and Dany's inevitable white walker-fighting alliance (via Sam and Jorah meeting at the citadel, or Varys and whomever*). Jon and Dany's relation being revealed will make it all the easier. I also imagine Dany would be impressed by Sansa. (Picture it now: Sansa's like, "Yes, please destroy them all. And let me watch." Tyrion's like, "Okay wait a sec." Dany smirks.) This Targaryen/Stark ending is all I want.

* Imagine Varys (with Dany) and Littlefinger (with the Starks) being forced to work together again. (Cyclical.)

Bittersweet probably means there aren't many other happy endings. The damage from the white walkers and from the warfare itself will be significant. Half of the main cast might be dead. And that's just fine. That's what we've signed up for. Jaime's end will be maximally tragic, Brienne will die heroically, etc. We might even see Jon become a white walker.

I feel more confident now that Westeros could end up with a total matriarchy. Daenerys, Sansa, and Yara. Maybe that's what "breaking the wheel" means.

The only flaw is, what if Sansa is not as strong in the books? Maybe she does get there, but some other way, and it simply takes longer. Either way, they must be just barreling through the Winds of Winter plot points right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 03:04:28 AM
My fingers are crossed for a 'Daenerys doesn't learn from the mistakes of predecessors' ending where her advisors can't stop her from enforcing her brutal tactics so we have up with a conflict with the two 'forces of good' in the show- her and the Starks. I know she just stopped the Ironborn leaders to stop reaving and stuff but I struggle with her keeping the Dothraki horde in check (dragons or not). She doesn't need to go wildfire crazy but that would be a nice touch.
I'm surprised she's so normal considering she's literally the most inbred person on the planet. They do need her dragons to kill the evil snowmen though.

I feel like that matriarchal ending seems a bit to neat and sweet to happen- something closer to it might happen in the show but I hear the book is a bit more unpredictable. Would it be fair to say that I reckon 2 of 3 women you mentioned will die? Not sure which though.
I never thought 'breaking the wheel' head any gender connotation, I saw it as a very-surface level statement about the ruling classes. Will she try her chain-breaking, master-killing tactics on a greater scale in Westeros- will she succeed? Will she be called out as a hypocrite for being on top of the pyramid, with power absolute? Possibly going hand-in-hand with the brutal Daenerys thing.

I don't know if I want a Jon, King of the World ending either. There's literally nothing he wants more than to be Jon Stark and being Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North/King in the North would be greatest cherry on top ever. That's the 'sweet' I would really appreciate out of the bittersweet. But there's a chance that Bran could come back as the crippled Lord and have one of Jon's or Sansa's kids as an heir.
Jon's one of my faves in the show, he's had a shitty, rough life. Let him live the rest of it out quietly in the North.

If we don't end up with an apocalyptic ending when all the regions are kinda wrecked/independent, it would be cool if we had an unexpected character become ruler. Someone totally untrained and unexpected but finds themselves in the chair because of the rules of primogeniture.

Ideally, I'm hoping for something realistic but kinda hopeful. As in the wheel never truly breaks, the cycle continues forever, people somewhere are going to be oppressed no matter what- but as the cycle continues, we slowly lose our savage ways and find hope. That sorta business. Not too grim. Not too fluffy fairy tale. But fair. But I'll only think that ending is deserved if we (the viewers/readers) suffer a lot before we get to it.

Also, please, please give us Jaimie becoming a good dude. Or doing something good before he dies. Like you said, tragic and all that.
I hear his arc is way better in the book but I find myself rooting for him again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 21, 2016, 09:15:41 AM
Quote from: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 03:04:28 AM
evil snowmen

I'm so fucking excited for the remaining episodes we've got left of this show. The more I reflect on BOTB, the more I think my initial reaction might very well be correct, it is the best episode of the show so far. If this is how GOT handles resolutions and trying things together, then I am so on board with the process of concluding ahead. There've been times where my interest in the show has waned or I've become somewhat tired of it, but I'm completely re-energized by it now. Reading everyone's thoughts here is a major contributor to that.

I think that once "peace" has been achieved and the white walkers have defeated, it's only inevitable that Jon will wander off into the sunset to explore the far reaches of the north. I wouldn't be shocked if Bran goes will him.

Cersi remains the character that I'm most interested in. Of course she's going to get her ultimate comeuppance in the end since she's managed to dodge the bullet so many times, but her story seems to keep stalling and stagnate this season. I hope she has at least one more grand moment of obscene power before she is suddenly and totally destroyed for good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 21, 2016, 09:53:39 AM
has anyone else been watching this season by listening to other peoples loud ass conversations about every episode instead of getting the chance to watch it themselves? i gave up around episode 3 because everyone is constantly talking about it. i know what happens but visually it must be amazing because no one blabbed openly about the prior.
i think social media is a supplement to the death of art.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: jonas on June 21, 2016, 11:38:23 AM
They better start burning those thousands of bodies right outside of Winterfell! White Walkers reaching the wall has to be soon, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
Some observations to share after my rewatch...

Sophie Turner has given her best performance to date in this episode. Her power here is almost overwhelming. So much is accomplished wordlessly.

In the war planning meeting, after each dubious plan is made, it cuts to Sansa with this very subtle skeptical look. At the end, it cuts to her and she has this expression that very clearly says "uhh yeah, this is dumb, we're gonna need the Vale for sure." (More on Sansa later.)

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 10:25:38 PMDid people notice that the Vale's war horn was sounded like 2 or 3 times before it was loud and clearly audible? That was such a fascinating choice. As if the first couple times might have been in the viewer's imagination.

Correction/elaboration:

At dawn, Davos hears a horn blow three times. This is some deep foreshadowing. Later, when they're encircled and Jon is being trampled, you hear the horn in the sound bed, pulsing and resonating through that whole sequence. It's amazing. The sound manifests itself as a kind of hopeful premonition in the midst of all the trauma and horror. Because soon after, we hear the Vale's horn clearly, and the knights ride in.

In this moment, everyone's expressions are priceless:

- Jon is bewilderment personified.
- Littlefinger is like aww yeah, look at me. Relishing this with every fiber of his being.
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!
- Ramsay: No. Seriously? Just no. This is not fair.

Also, I was surprised to realize that the actual battle occupies only 11 or 12 minutes of the episode:

38:50 – Jon charges forward.
49:46 – The Vale horn is heard.
55:06 – Jon's final punch.

When Ramsay says "you can't kill me, I'm part of you now," Sansa's reaction is endlessly fascinating. The camera invites you to follow her microexpressions. She does what could be a little gasp of horror, but that immediately reveals itself as disgust, and she is actually just taking a breath to deliver her epic correction, which I'll quote again: "Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear." Her face is quietly defiant, confident, and victorious, and she's clearly struggling not to let that smile come out too early. It's so perfect. Give Ms. Turner all the awards.

By the way, Daenerys being charmed by Yara was so delightful. And lots of interpersonal progress between Dany and Tyrion, finally. Her leadership squad feels like a cohesive force now. A very interesting team is forming.

Quote from: Sleepless on June 21, 2016, 09:15:41 AMIf this is how GOT handles resolutions and trying things together, then I am so on board with the process of concluding ahead.

Yep. They'll just have to make sure this director keeps his schedule clear. He (Miguel Sapochnik) is also directing the upcoming finale.

Quote from: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 03:04:28 AMMy fingers are crossed for a 'Daenerys doesn't learn from the mistakes of predecessors' ending where her advisors can't stop her from enforcing her brutal tactics so we have up with a conflict with the two 'forces of good' in the show- her and the Starks. I know she just stopped the Ironborn leaders to stop reaving and stuff but I struggle with her keeping the Dothraki horde in check (dragons or not). She doesn't need to go wildfire crazy but that would be a nice touch. I'm surprised she's so normal considering she's literally the most inbred person on the planet. They do need her dragons to kill the evil snowmen though.

In my mind, the only certainty is that Daenerys does break the wheel and return the seven kingdoms to Targaryen rule, but of a new kind. I think it's possible she'll become a mad queen, but not in the scope of this narrative. As long as Tyrion can calm her fires, it looks promising — they've been carefully dispensing exposition that indicates Daenerys is developing a clear mind about things. She even demanded that the Iron Islands reverse their way of life (as you said).

Here's my random prediction on the Dothraki. First of all, they worship Daenerys like a god now, so they will most likely do as they're told. Dany's whole point with them is, you know what, maybe the Dothraki wouldn't be just raping and pillaging if they didn't have leaders with that goal in mind. (As she told them, they were small men with small goals, not fit to lead.) I think if they actually take part in a victory against Westeros elites and frozen demons, they will be more than happy with the incomprehensible levels of glory they've attained with Daenerys, and more than willing to remain faithful.

We know they get restless, so how about this: the Dothraki patrol the seven kingdoms in a circle, led by Daario and the Second Sons (as they were in this episode). Perhaps one of the dragons tags along to keep the soldiers in line and serve as a reminder to all Westerosi that Daenerys rules.

Side note. It would be interesting if some of the key players survived and found themselves exiled to Essos. A continent swap. And maybe someday they will return to challenge Daenerys. I'm wondering which of Daenerys's forces, if any, she could afford to send back to Essos to ensure the freedom of Mereen etc. (She can't actually rule both continents, right?)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!

I'm still pretty grumpy of her not telling Jonno, especially when Jon asked if she has any advice. Could have saved a lot of soldiers. Kinda her fault as well. Also, she barely cared when Rickon's corpse was being stretchered by. He was just a pawn. Jon was totally messed up by Rickon's death.
I guess we all have our own ways of grieving.
The new ruthless, pragmatic Sansa makes for a good character but there's a strong chance she might become a 'love to hate- grudgingly support' character- hey- just like Littlefinger! She might become closer to Cersei than she knows, a sharp, heartless player of the game (but far more competent).
She'll either fearlessly and savagely defend the Stark family (name) and gain revenge- and/or forsake her prior relationships and sacrifice those who were once important to her to reach her goals. Would be cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on June 22, 2016, 03:36:02 AM
Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 22, 2016, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: Tictacbk on June 22, 2016, 03:36:02 AM
Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

Either Cersei or the white walkers, for sure. Cersei does seem more likely, maybe even next episode, considering all the aggressive foreshadowing. It's certainly better for Daenerys from a PR point of view if the dragons don't have to torch King's Landing.

I really like your prediction. It's funny, I was just thinking this morning — Daenerys is such an unstoppable force, how can they execute this in a way that's unpredictable? Your suggestion is kind of a great solution. Daenerys arrives with everything she has to find a Westeros in absolute turmoil and disarray, practically eating itself alive, with no capacity to resist. Plus, after King's Landing explodes, I think the citizens would welcome her.

My only doubt is that, well, being unpredictable via anticlimax is maybe not the best dramatic storytelling choice. It has to be glorious or amazing in some way, right? If Daenerys doesn't arrive to immediately clash with the white walkers, what is a comparably epic alternative?

Anyway, I'm also wondering about the timing. Before she can leave Mereen, doesn't she need to wait for Euron to arrive? And if he's building a thousand ships, won't that take a while? Even if she had enough ships to leave now, she can't leave Mereen exposed to Euron's navy.

I'm becoming increasingly curious about Jon and Daenerys. Some people are actually predicting they will clash and do battle or something. My response: are you insane? With what remaining forces would Jon attempt to confront her, and does he have any appetite for that whatsoever?

Nah, I think Tyrion will helpfully inform Dany that the Starks are bitter enemies of King's Landing — also that he and Sansa were married, and she's pretty okay. I can actually see a bond forming between Dany and Sansa — consider their similar positions growing up, forced into royal marriages, raped a bunch, breaking free of that through force of will, and learning to become strong players.

Even more convincing for their alliance is that Jon and Dany are both Targaryens. Any number of key persons could discover that — Sam, Bran, or Varys, for example. (In fact, since he's been downloading all of history, Bran probably knows it by now.) There are innumerable ways that Dany and Jon's people could meet up. A lot of them already know each other. Also, House Mormont (Jorah's people) and House Stark are now very close allies. (Fun fact, Jon defeated Ramsay with a Mormont shield.) Jon even has Davos, who has experience attacking King's Landing by sea! (Not to mention, the white walkers have the effect of unifying even the most unexpected forces.) There are just mountains of evidence for an upcoming Stark/Targaryen alliance.

Side note on Littlefinger — I think after getting to know her, he could see Sansa's ascendency from a mile away, and he wanted to be on board. If Sansa unites with Daenerys, Littlefinger is suddenly on top of the world. And if he's smart, his chance of betraying them anytime soon is nil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 22, 2016, 11:19:02 AM
Quote from: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!

I'm still pretty grumpy of her not telling Jonno, especially when Jon asked if she has any advice. Could have saved a lot of soldiers. Kinda her fault as well. Also, she barely cared when Rickon's corpse was being stretchered by. He was just a pawn. Jon was totally messed up by Rickon's death.
I guess we all have our own ways of grieving.
The new ruthless, pragmatic Sansa makes for a good character but there's a strong chance she might become a 'love to hate- grudgingly support' character- hey- just like Littlefinger! She might become closer to Cersei than she knows, a sharp, heartless player of the game (but far more competent).
She'll either fearlessly and savagely defend the Stark family (name) and gain revenge- and/or forsake her prior relationships and sacrifice those who were once important to her to reach her goals. Would be cool.

As I said she knew Rickon was doomed but she didn't even touched his body, but I guess she only had one thing in mind, watch Ramsey die.

Now that you mentioned ruthless, these days I've been thinking about what is next for Sansa, I don't think she will battle WW, and her enemies at King's Landing are too far away and besides, the last time a Stark wanted to go there for revenge it didn't go well, so my guess now is that what she could do is go to the twins or send the Knights of the Vale to kill Walder Frey, if not that, what else can she do?

Quote from: Tictacbk on June 22, 2016, 03:36:02 AM
Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

That's interesting, but there's no way the taking of King's Landing is done without a huge battle, there will be fire and carnage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 08:28:35 AM
Edit: Looks like this story is wrong. Speculation based on false information.

http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344850#msg344850


The Brexit Could Be Bad News for 'Game of Thrones'

The European Union helps fund production of HBO's epic in Northern Ireland. If the U.K. leaves, that money could too.

Via Foreign Policy (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/21/the-brexit-could-be-bad-news-for-game-of-thrones/?utm_content=buffer4853d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer%5B/url)

Millions of people are set to tune in Sunday to watch the season six finale of Game of Thrones, HBO's sprawling fantasy epic about warring kingdoms in the fictional land of Westeros. On Thursday, voters in a real-life kingdom will decide whether to break with the European Union — a move that could spell bad news for the fictional Starks, Lannisters, and Tyrells.

The hit show might seem to have little to do with this week's referendum on Britain's potential exit from the EU, which polls show coming down to the wire with the "Remain" and "Leave" camps locked in an increasingly tight race. But if voters cast their ballots in favor of a so-called Brexit, it won't simply be the economies of Britain and Europe that feel the pinch. Shows like Game of Thrones will also be harder — and costlier — to produce, meaning that the real world and the fantasy one will collide to the possible detriment of both.

That's because if the U.K. votes to leave the EU, it would take Northern Ireland with it, potentially robbing HBO of one of the show's primary filming locations. It takes a lot of cash to depict Jon Snow and thousands of Stark loyalists defeating Ramsay Bolton's forces to take back Winterfell, a scene shot there and aired this past Sunday.

That leaves HBO looking for partners to help pay for the show, and some of that money for it comes from the EU's European Regional Development Fund, created to spur economic growth across the European Union. If the U.K. leaves, filmmakers might not be eligible to draw from that fund. This means that some of the cash used to bring big-budget productions to Northern Ireland could disappear.

HBO would not comment on the possibility of a Brexit impacting production of the show, which is or has been filmed in Spain, Croatia, and Malta, in addition to Northern Ireland. (It has also shot in Iceland, which is not an EU member state.) Northern Ireland Screen, the national film agency for Northern Ireland, also declined to comment.

But when asked if a Brexit would put financing for shows like Game of Thrones and other productions at risk, Peter Chase, a senior fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States' Brussels office, said "Absolutely."

"It might be up in the air for U.S. studios who want to film in the U.K.," Chase told Foreign Policy. "There are EU programs to help fund all of this. If the U.K. is no longer part of the EU, that has the potential to go away."

Game of Thrones wouldn't be the only show potentially threatened. British film and television projects were given $32 million over the last seven years from organizations like Creative Europe, which grants money for media and cultural projects. This includes Oscar-nominated British or British-American films Carol, Brooklyn, and Shaun the Sheep, as well as the documentary about the troubled singer Amy Winehouse, Amy.

Many artists, actors, authors, and other leaders of Britain's creative industries have made their opposition to the Brexit public. In a letter published last month, author John le Carre, actors Jude Law, Keira Knightley, Benedict Cumberbatch, and 278 other signatories from the British film, music, theater, literature, dance, design, arts, and fashion communities wrote that "Britain is not just stronger in Europe, it is more imaginative and more creative, and our global creative success would be severely weakened by walking away."

"Leaving Europe would be a leap into the unknown for millions of people across the U.K. who work in the creative industries, and for the millions more at home and abroad who benefit from the growth and vibrancy of Britain's cultural sector," they added.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 24, 2016, 12:54:26 PM
Obviously they will have to handle that and eventually I don't think it will hurt them that bad, they are getting huge ratings, they have averaged around 23 million viewers across all platforms, somehow they will have to work it out...


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 22, 2016, 11:11:48 AM
Side note on Littlefinger — I think after getting to know her, he could see Sansa's ascendency from a mile away, and he wanted to be on board. If Sansa unites with Daenerys, Littlefinger is suddenly on top of the world. And if he's smart, his chance of betraying them anytime soon is nil.

That sounds like LF, but, did he really not know about Ramsey? and the thing here is that we only have the show to speculate on this story line since in the book Sansa is entirely in different place, but I agree, he won't betray her now.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 22, 2016, 11:11:48 AM
Anyway, I'm also wondering about the timing. Before she can leave Mereen, doesn't she need to wait for Euron to arrive? And if he's building a thousand ships, won't that take a while? Even if she had enough ships to leave now, she can't leave Mereen exposed to Euron's navy.

Maybe they will meet at the sea, man that would be an awesome battle and expensive too, I can see that happening at some point in the books but not so sure it can work out ($$$) on the show.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 22, 2016, 11:11:48 AM
I'm becoming increasingly curious about Jon and Daenerys. Some people are actually predicting they will clash and do battle or something. My response: are you insane? With what remaining forces would Jon attempt to confront her, and does he have any appetite for that whatsoever?

Nah, I think Tyrion will helpfully inform Dany that the Starks are bitter enemies of King's Landing — also that he and Sansa were married, and she's pretty okay. I
can actually see a bond forming between Dany and Sansa — consider their similar positions growing up, forced into royal marriages, raped a bunch, breaking free of that through force of will, and learning to become strong players.

Agree, I don't see Jon and Dany fighting, Tyrion wouldn't allow it and Jon and Sansa do know Tyrion, he was nice with both of them and helped Bran too when he designed the saddle.

What everyone is hoping is for the Dragons to head north and Bran to warg one of them, but for that to happen Dany first needs to conquer Westeros, we're a long way for that to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 04:18:18 PM
A couple quick random things from Episode 9 that I should keep out of my next post:

I never thought to look this up before, but Daenerys's command, "dracarys," is Valyrian for "dragonfire."

Apparently Ramsay was using the burning crosses as distance markers as he shot arrows at Rickon. Kind of brilliant on his part. Were Ramsay not obscenely evil, he might have been a good military asset against the white walkers.

Also, foreshadowing (https://www.instagram.com/p/BG7AdhZrVUk/?taken-by=thepixelfactor)?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
Edit: Just posted on the previous page too. :cry:

Re: Fernando. Good call. HBO will fully fund the show one way or another. They can't afford not to.

I think Littlefinger might have actually underestimated Ramsay Bolton's cruelty. He looked sincerely embarrassed and a little ashamed, insofar as he ever experiences those emotions. Seemed to throw him off for a minute. But then (as always) he took advantage of the situation and put himself on the winning side.

His only opportunity for betrayal right now would be to follow through with Cersei's request and assassinate Sansa. There is 0% chance of that happening, for multiple reasons, chiefly that Cersei appears to be significantly less winning than Sansa.

More evidence against a Dany/Jon conflict. Jon has absolutely no interest in conquering Westeros for himself, or even the North — I assume Sansa will rule Winterfell, and Jon will give her as much responsibility as she'll take. Davos pointedly said that Jon is not a king. Even Melisandre no longer believes Jon is necessarily the "prince that was promised."

Ohh... just thought of a new prediction. (Includes a light spoiler from the preview.) We know Davos will confront Melisandre, in front of Jon, about burning Shireen. Things are going to be awkward in Jon's entourage going forward, so doesn't it seem likely that Melisandre will be exiled (perhaps voluntarily)?

Then, maybe she goes on a bit of a wandering quest and learns about Daenerys being her faith's favorite as "the one who was promised." Remember Melisandre (wisely) told Stannis he should drop everything to deal with the white walkers? What if she eventually meets Daenerys and gives her the same advice? Seems like an elegant way to enlighten Dany's camp on this issue, rather than having Varys or Jorah randomly come back with knowledge.

Melisandre could also facilitate the connection between Daenerys and Jon. She surely has to mention what's gone down with him, to demonstrate her bonafides if nothing else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 25, 2016, 11:51:30 AM
Thanks, journalism. The original story basically turns out to be wrong...


HBO Says Brexit Won't Hurt 'Game of Thrones' Production

A cable network always pays its debts.

http://fortune.com/2016/06/24/hbo-says-brexit-wont-hurt-game-of-thrones-production/

"Game of Thrones," the hit HBO cable TV series that is partly filmed in Northern Ireland, will not suffer due to Britain's decision to leave the European Union, the cable network said on Friday, aiming to quash speculation that the lavishly produced show would lose EU funding.

Britons voted on Thursday to leave the European Union, a decision that economists and government leaders say clouds growth prospects for the world's fifth-largest economy and could dim its attraction for investors.

The result could also discourage Hollywood studios and cable networks to film shows and movies in Britain, in part because the country would no longer have access to European subsidies.

The series received support from the EU's European Regional Development Fund in its early years, HBO confirmed, but the fund has provided no support for the past few seasons.

"We do not anticipate that the result of the EU referendum will have any material effect on HBO producing 'Game of Thrones,'" the network, a unit of Time Warner, said in a statement.

As results from Britain's historic referendum came in overnight, speculation spread online that the decision would hurt HBO's most-watched series, which had as many as 20 million viewers per episode last season.

The show continues to receive funding from the UK, including from Northern Ireland Screen (NIS), which provides government support for local businesses.

NIS issued a statement on Friday saying the organization "does not use monies provided from European-funded programmes."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 25, 2016, 10:50:12 PM
(Promise this is my last post of the week.)

I think I might have caught a hint supporting the theory of Tyrion's Targaryen ancestry. Could be a stretch, but it's definitely something:

Tyrion (to Theon): "It was complicated for you, I'm sure, growing up at Winterfell. Never quite knowing who you were. [Switch to pointedly isolated shot of Tyrion, attached below.] But then, we all live complicated lives, don't we..."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 26, 2016, 11:13:22 AM
You're overreaching, Jeremy. Tyrion's life is complicated because he's a dwarf born Lannister (or the orther way around...).

I'm excited for the finale! Last week was great to watch, really. But the finale will offer more, I think. It has been a good season, way better than 5, but it needs a great finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 26, 2016, 12:35:47 PM
Hey, I said it was probably a stretch!

Alone it would mean nothing, but there's been a decent amount of potential hinting that Tyrion is half Targaryen, and this could be another one. Let me find my previous post on this...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 09, 2016, 11:44:14 AMThe way Tywin was so resentful of him seemed to go beyond his appearance or the fact that his mother died in childbirth. That would make a lot more sense if Tywin knew he wasn't the father.

Found some good evidence here:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-likelihood-that-Tyrion-Lannister-is-secretly-a-Targaryen

Example from that link. Tywin says this to Tyrion: "You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

So here, it's obviously not Tyrion saying "I've never fit in, because I know I'm a Targaryen," but it's something.

If nothing else, it could be the writers teasing the fans. It's not one of the most well-known or well-accepted theories, but it's out there.

I agree about this season. I think it's the best one. And Season 5 is surely the weakest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 26, 2016, 11:45:02 PM
Ugh, what an exquisite episode. I was in love with the pacing. And the music... sweet Jesus that music. Everything was so fully realized and so deliciously dispensed. I just kept saying to myself: "Are you really giving this to me right now? Is this really happening? Thank you!"

This is the best episode pair in the show's history, right? Is there a way to make Miguel Sapochnik direct all of them? Does he have a family?

I'll do more gushing this week, but let's get down to the details. First of all, this episode doubled down on playing with time scales. There will surely be complaints, but I think audiences are smart enough to figure things out. Here's how it goes, chronologically:

1. Jaime and Arya with the Freys
2. Kaboom
3. Olenna learns of the event (not seen)
4. Olenna meets Varys at Dorne
5. Varys returns to Mereen (not seen)
6. Dany sets sail

(Unknown: Winterfell, Bran, Sam.)

The main point being, Dany's departure is significantly later than the other events. Which is good, because the Narrow Sea is... well... narrow, and she'll be there soon. I'll see what the podcasts have to say about this and report back. But it does seem like all the pieces are in place for a swift victory. Not only does she have her unbeatable army, she now has the support of Dorne and presumably the Tyrells. Looks like she'll arrive well before the white walkers, too. My guess: The show is telling us to take her victory for granted, and that there are actually more interesting questions. This is a semi-subversion that very likely solves the dilemma we talked about earlier (that "will she win" can't be the focus). Seems like they're stacking things so dramatically in her favor that we're not meant to have any doubt.

Circling back to my other point... Since Dany's events are last, and Cersei's coup takes place much earlier, I hope we'll get to see enough of Cersei's rule before her world is rocked.

I'm kind of shocked that Littlefinger showed his cards like that. His plan is simply incompatible with everything. What if love does him in? Shouldn't Arya take care of him? Either way, the Starks need to have some serious eyes on that dude.

Isn't it a bit ominous in retrospect that Arya eyed Jaime so aggressively? Or was she only playing the part?

The big question mark: What about Euron Greyjoy? Battle at sea yet to come?

And now to revisit my predictions and talk to myself for a minute. Strange, I couldn't find my wrong predictions, so these will have to do. I'll include some unfulfilled predictions that look more promising now.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 04:22:29 PMWe know Davos will confront Melisandre, in front of Jon, about burning Shireen. Things are going to be awkward in Jon's entourage going forward, so doesn't it seem likely that Melisandre will be exiled (perhaps voluntarily)?

Then, maybe she goes on a bit of a wandering quest and learns about Daenerys being her faith's favorite as "the one who was promised." Remember Melisandre (wisely) told Stannis he should drop everything to deal with the white walkers? What if she eventually meets Daenerys and gives her the same advice? Seems like an elegant way to enlighten Dany's camp on this issue, rather than having Varys or Jorah randomly come back with knowledge.

Melisandre is currently riding south, so this seriously might actually happen.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 01:32:18 AMI feel more confident now that Westeros could end up with a total matriarchy. Daenerys, Sansa, and Yara. Maybe that's what "breaking the wheel" means.

Add Elia Martell and Olenna Tyrell to that list. It's getting long, isn't it? Although Olenna and Sansa might be slightly in the background. I do think it's likely that Jon dies fighting the white walkers, leaving Sansa to rule after all.

Oh and we also got Daenerys saying that women will rule after her. I guess I should have led with that.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 03:51:59 PMI think it's equally plausible that Littlefinger's chain of power plays might be coming to a natural end. Who even trusts him anymore? Not Sansa. Not any other Starks. Not Varys. Not Royce. Not the Lannisters, really. (I recall Cersei, not even the greatest of minds, being very skeptical in their last meeting.) The only person who definitely trusts him is a mentally deficient boy.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 11:08:43 AMI think it's in [Littlefinger's] immediate self-interest to put his betrayal spree on hold and earn the Starks' trust for a minute. Obviously what he did in this ep was the first step in that direction. Of course he will try to cause more chaos... but wouldn't it be fun to see Sansa get one step ahead of him?

I think this is the first time we've seen him feeling exposed and a bit lost, despite his massive victory. Sansa meanwhile has never been more powerful or lucid.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2016, 01:10:53 PMHere's the logic problem for me right now, though. Presumably part of Margaery's plan is conceive a boy with Tommen. And the conventional wisdom is that he'll die by the end of this season. How can she be sure that's happened in that amount of time? Also, how can she possibly execute her plan before Loras is forced to confess? I'm seeing a long-term plan with short-term obstacles... or maybe I'm not seeing it at all.

Turns out she was playing with fire after all.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 30, 2016, 01:17:32 AM[King's Landing] As Aegon said in Bran's vision, burn them all. Seriously. Margaery included.

I was talking about dragonfire. Still, seems a bit harsh in retrospect.  :(

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2016, 12:42:27 PM[Arya leaving the Faceless Men] Were the series ending right now, sure it would be a pointless detour. But this is definitely setting up something important, maybe crucially important . . .

In terms of what's next: "I am Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home" is a pretty strong indication of her sense of purpose. The question is, will she actually go home to Winterfell and be like "hey guys I'm a super assassin now, who do y'all need offed?" Or will she continue on her rogue's path, sowing death and chaos among the Starks' enemies?

Furthermore, does the magic of putting on a face carry with her? Does she actually have that power going forward? That hasn't been made clear yet — or if it was, I don't recall. (Since Jaqen tells her "a girl is finally no one," I'm leaning towards yes.) If she gets to keep that, she'll be absolutely unstoppable.

As Jon Brion might say, here we go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 27, 2016, 02:01:17 AM
Noice. All thought I wish the last scene wasn't the sailing one. It should have been the Night's King looking all evil or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 27, 2016, 01:25:39 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 26, 2016, 11:45:02 PM
Dany's departure is significantly later than the other events. Which is good, because the Narrow Sea is... well... narrow, and she'll be there soon.

Yes it's narrow but they are at the southeastern part of the continent, as soon as the episode ended I looked up the map of Westeros and Dorne while is not close is the natural first stop on their way to King's Landing, so the timeline works for me too.

About the finale...DAMN! The final tally of death characters is the highest ever I think, let's see:
Walder Frey and two sons (I know the sons were only seen two or three times), Kevan, Lancel and Tommen Lannister, Mace, Loras and Margaery Tyrell, Pycelle and the Sparrow.

Cersei.
Ok I didn't see that coming, I mean the outcome of the explosion, she practically wiped out House Tyrell leaving only Oleanna, meanwhile Tommen couldn't take it and jumped to his death, Cersei actually took it a little too calm, reminded me the way Sansa took Rickon's. It'll be interesting what is next for her and Jamie.

I loved that Margaery was the only one to see that something was off and the Sparrow's arrogance ended up killing all of them.

The Septa scene was great, Cersei gloating all over her, poor woman The Mountain will have a field day with her, I actually would have liked more if she ended up with Qyburn, he's famous for experimenting with the living.


I'll have more later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 27, 2016, 01:41:33 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 27, 2016, 01:25:39 PMYes it's narrow but they are at the southeastern part of the continent, as soon as the episode ended I looked up the map of Westeros and Dorne while is not close is the natural first stop on their way to King's Landing, so the timeline works for me too.

You're totally right. I was misled by a podcast and didn't check. I should look at the maps. So yeah, Mereen is actually waaay far away. (And it looks like they will inevitably cross paths with Euron.) Not only is Dany's departure the last event chronologically, but it's going to be a long journey. Plenty of time for things to transpire in Westeros before she arrives.

Quote from: Fernando on June 27, 2016, 01:25:39 PMmeanwhile Tommen couldn't take it and jumped to his death, Cersei actually took it a little too calm, reminded me the way Sansa took Rickon's. It'll be interesting what is next for her and Jamie.

She believed Tommen's death was inevitable. I wonder if at least part of her knew that he would end it himself. She could have immediately rushed to comfort and protect him, but she decidedly did not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 28, 2016, 11:22:37 AM
From the opening scene playing with our expectations, then flipping some major changes on us, this was another fantastic episode from start to finish. So Cersei is queen now. She'll have a chance to rule for a while, getting her moment in the spotlight (it feels like it's been ages) before ultimately, inevitably, being destroyed when Dany comes to town. That one scene almost made up for a season of tediousness for Arya. Hand of the Queen. Boats and dragons and Dothraki.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 26, 2016, 11:45:02 PM
This is the best episode pair in the show's history, right? Is there a way to make Miguel Sapochnik direct all of them? Does he have a family?

Agree with this sentiment, but there's a lot to be said for the writing in these two too. Hopefully they'll aspire to match the high bar set on these two for the remaining 13.

Also, this came to my attention since Sunday:

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJYhTTM4.jpg&hash=15ad5d64bfd9006a6ce5710d6e6d1f1ac5219c97)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 04:29:44 PM
Good stuff. I'm sure a rewatch of the show would reveal all kinds of foreshadowing.

In other news, people are really starting to jump on my Stark/Targaryen alliance bandwagon. (Yes, it's mine.)

Beyond all the things I've said, there was some potential foreshadowing in the finale. Daenerys and Tyrion will be keeping their eyes peeled for a strategic marriage that could cement a crucial alliance. Well, okay then, seeing as the Tyrells, Martells, and Greyjoys are firm allies (you can see all their ships already sailing with Daenerys), who is even left... but the North?

I'm a little dubious about an actual Jon/Dany marriage, because there might not be an appetite for more incest on the show (although Jon/Sansa shippers would disagree). There are numerous other reasons for them to ally, mainly the big one that I started with — she needs Jon to secure the North, and Jon needs her to defeat the white walkers. As a bonus, Melisandre, Jorah, and Sam are out there right now, ready to serve as potential chess pieces to link the two camps.

Given that very clear path, what could possibly stand in the way of the Stark/Tagaryen alliance? There are a couple hurdles. (But we must have some obstacles for good storytelling, right?)

The Targaryens are fairly disliked in the North. Robert's Rebellion was not even that long ago. There are ways past this, though. Sansa and Jon should be easily convinced. All they need is the most basic of sales pitches — "my father was evil, I'm going to break the wheel," etc. And like I said before, Sansa's reaction will be something like this: "King's Landing? Cersei? Yes, please. Here, take these dogs. Do you need to leave something standing, or can you burn it all to the ground? Wait, bring me too, I need to watch this."

And I still think the Tyrion/Sansa connection could play out in a fascinating way. Tyrion was the only powerful man in a position to exploit her who decisively chose not to. (He even became a bit sweet and protective of Sansa, for example trying to take her away from the Purple Wedding when he saw the performance was upsetting her.) Tyrion has since turned against her enemies (the Lannisters) in the most dramatic ways imaginable. I mean... if I were Sansa, I'd be pretty thrilled about all of this.

The Northerners in general might be harder to convince. But Jon happens to have experience convincing them to accept unconventional allies. An argument that will become suddenly more convincing when the dead arrive. I imagine Jon's true parentage, once Bran tells him, will have to be kept a secret for a while so as not to complicate things politically. Or maybe it could be an asset in his PR campaign — the Starks and Targaryens are already united, in Jon, and you all love Jon, right?

Another likely complication — While Melisandre may convince Dany to join the fight against the white walkers, her presence would surely add some awkwardness and leave a bad taste. But... compromises.

I never considered before this week that Jaime might become yet another enemy of Cersei and King's Landing. But it's actually possible now.

Lots more support in this episode for my "Littlefinger is running out of plays and might actually lose" opinion. Consider the rivalry between him and Varys. Where is Varys right now? On a ship, crossing the narrow sea with the most powerful people in the world. Where is Littlefinger right now? Literally brooding in a corner.

What concerns me is that we will have at least 13 more episodes. Which leaves enough time for things to flip again, however insane and unexpected (and ultimately disappointing) that would be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 05:44:38 PM
The one thing I see to get in the way, even before she takes the throne, between a Stark/Targaryen alliance is that Jon right now is The King of the North, I don't know how Dany would take that, I actually think that title will be a huge pain in the ass but...

It will probably work out because on Dany's camp the Starks have true friends like Tyrion who can vouch for both Sansa and Jon, Varys who dealt with Ned and knows Sansa, and obviously Theon who lived with them a good part of his life and knows the horrors they have lived, even Oleanna can vouch for Sansa too.


I haven't even gush about the death I enjoyed more, Arya killing Walder fucking Frey, that was beautiful and unexpected, I suspected that he would die but not that Arya would kill him in such a great sick way, letting him know he just ate his sons, haha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
Ah, good call, I didn't realize that Dany has four people who can vouch for Sansa. Theon might actually be the most vocal, considering their very recent experiences together.

I wonder what Theon would say about Jon; I don't remember their interactions. Nor do I remember Tyrion and Jon. If Bran is in the mix by then, he'll be like "oh hey, it's Tyrion, the nice dwarf who made me a saddle!"

Anyway, yeah, this goes way beyond the two houses having common enemies. They're already linked by virtue of the wideness of Dany's coalition.

"King in the North" is, I think, a title that has a very specific political/military meaning in this moment. Once Daenerys arrives, that context is sort of wiped clean.

Daenerys would be a fool not to take advantage of the incredible loyalty the Starks have in the North. (She can't be interested in scorching a bunch of northerners while trying to win hearts and minds.) Considering she's okay with leaving the Iron Islands semi-independent, the North by comparison is a dream scenario for her. You're dealing with this super honorable house with two leaders who are decidedly not power-hungry, who are not raping or pillaging anyone, who yearn for an end to the chaos of Westeros even more than Daenerys does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 08:34:44 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
I wonder what Theon would say about Jon; I don't remember their interactions. Nor do I remember Tyrion and Jon. If Bran is in the mix by then, he'll be like "oh hey, it's Tyrion, the nice dwarf who made me a saddle!"

Theon didn't interact much in the show with Jon but he lived with him years so we have to assume, as for Tyrion, remember they go together to Castle Black, Tyrion says his great phrase "All dwarfs are bastards at their fathers eye" first time they meet and on their trip they bond, even at Castle Black he defends Jon from his brothers when he beat them while training.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
Daenerys would be a fool not to take advantage of the incredible loyalty the Starks have in the North. (She can't be interested in scorching a bunch of northerners while trying to win hearts and minds.) Considering she's okay with leaving the Iron Islands semi-independent, the North by comparison is a dream scenario for her. You're dealing with this super honorable house with two leaders who are decidedly not power-hungry who are not raping or pillaging anyone, who yearn for an end to the chaos of Westeros even more than Daenerys does..

Agree, that sounds like the logical move to make, I just wonder how they will get to that point, because by that time she has to be Queen, and while Dany does that, what will be happening at Winterfell?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 28, 2016, 10:39:20 PM
2 seasons left. I think that the joined forces of Daenerys and Jon is likely if a bit predictable. I'm wondering if they're gonna be at odds until some significant moment where the WWs appear and mess things up real bad and take a couple of important characters with them.
I think there needs to be another significant force of evil- Cersei doesn't count because it seems that Daenerys will be able to wipe her out with ease, also literally no one likes Cersei anymore except Qyburn and Zombie Clegane. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense for her to survive very long, she only has enemies now. Jamie is the biggest threat because he's the closest to her and was having 'Nam flashbacks to the Mad King in their last scene.

Euron maybe as the next big threat? He's been a bit of a joke so far but apparently in the books, he's shaping up to be a horrifically evil and powerful character. This season was a housekeeping season for the most part and they've tied up a lot of loose ends.

It would be pretty crazy if the WWs weren't the final bad guys and Euron or Mad Queen Daenerys end up as the final villains (kind of Breaking Badish that way).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 11:24:45 PM
Like you guys I think Cersei is done, it's just a matter of when that will happen, but, wouldn't be great if she somehow escaped and hide somewhere else? or even if she loses and dies she somehow takes a big chunk of Dany's army? I know the former it's not likely to happen but as a twist maybe it could work, it's a big maybe.

I don't think the Cersei vs Jaime will happen, not so long ago Jaime told Brienne how much he loved Cersei and she just confessed to the Septa the same thing, they may have a fight or two but I don't think Jaime will abandon her or turn against her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 11:43:21 PM
Quote from: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 08:34:44 PMAs for Tyrion, remember they go together to Castle Black, Tyrion says his great phrase "All dwarfs are bastards at their fathers eye" first time they meet and on their trip they bond, even at Castle Black he defends Jon from his brothers when he beat them while training.

Wow, I completely forgot about that. I guess it's been a while. Looks like Tyrion being a decent guy is going to pay off in the end.

Quote from: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 11:24:45 PM
Like you guys I think Cersei is done, it's just a matter of when that will happen, but, wouldn't be great if she somehow escaped and hide somewhere else? or even if she loses and dies she somehow takes a big chunk of Dany's army? I know the former it's not likely to happen but as a twist maybe it could work, it's a big maybe.

I don't think the Cersei vs Jaime will happen, not so long ago Jaime told Brienne how much he loved Cersei and she just confessed to the Septa the same thing, they may have a fight or two but I don't think Jaime will abandon her or turn against her.

It would be a fun twist if Cersei escapes. But I think at this point, she is one to make a last stand, even if she takes the entire Lannister army with her. On the other hand, the show will be very reluctant to kill anyone from the principal cast (Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, Cersei) too soon.

I have no idea what Jaime will do about Cersei right now. In a way, he kind of missed his chance to stop her, because the damage has already been done. That was a super disillusioned look he gave her, though. He's not on board.

Quote from: Lottery on June 28, 2016, 10:39:20 PM
2 seasons left. I think that the joined forces of Daenerys and Jon is likely if a bit predictable. I'm wondering if they're gonna be at odds until some significant moment where the WWs appear and mess things up real bad and take a couple of important characters with them.
I think there needs to be another significant force of evil- Cersei doesn't count because it seems that Daenerys will be able to wipe her out with ease, also literally no one likes Cersei anymore except Qyburn and Zombie Clegane. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense for her to survive very long, she only has enemies now. Jamie is the biggest threat because he's the closest to her and was having 'Nam flashbacks to the Mad King in their last scene.

Euron maybe as the next big threat? He's been a bit of a joke so far but apparently in the books, he's shaping up to be a horrifically evil and powerful character. This season was a housekeeping season for the most part and they've tied up a lot of loose ends.

It would be pretty crazy if the WWs weren't the final bad guys and Euron or Mad Queen Daenerys end up as the final villains (kind of Breaking Badish that way).

This is also my conundrum. On the surface, I don't see how there is enough plot left for 13+ episodes. But as you say, we do have some potentially major human villains. I think we'll get at least 2-3 more episodes out of Cersei. In terms of other villains, I would absolutely rule out Daenerys, and add Littlefinger. If he's not getting what he wants, he'll go into chaos mode again, which is the only way to change the game. So Cersei, Euron, and Littlefinger.

Maybe Daenerys easily conquers King's Landing, but conquering the whole of Westeros proves more complex. Winning the throne is just the beginning. The previous aspiring rulers like Stannis or Renly had no plans to re-unite the seven kingdoms, as far as I know. Daenerys's plans are a lot more ambitious. Maybe breaking the wheel is a seriously difficult process. Her story has been about slow and hard-won victories, so that probably continues. Some people are guessing that she tries to bring democracy to Westeros. She literally just did that with Mereen as part of her exit plan, and it was barely commented upon.

When she arrives in Westeros, there are no slaves to free, so what is the equivalent leap in progress? How about a parliamentary monarchy of some kind? (This podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/) has been predicting that for a while.)

We might also have enough time to go fully down the rabbit hole with Bran. *crosses fingers*

Side note, won't it be weird when we're not cutting between locations as much because 3/4 of the characters are in the same place?

Quote from: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 08:34:44 PMAgree, that sounds like the logical move to make, I just wonder how they will get to that point, because by that time she has to be Queen, and while Dany does that, what will be happening at Winterfell?

Not sure. Maybe Daenerys would quickly send someone to make contact with Winterfell, or send a raven straight away and summon them.

But yes. The timing of everything is a big open question for me right now.

Okay, this is kind of dumb, but I'm going to do it anyway. We've been wondering about the travel time between Essos and Westeros. So I put a few things together. Let's say the ships are traveling at a constant 17 knots (roughly going by this (https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/2ve7ms/how_fast_do_17th_century_sailing_ships_travel/)). That's 19.56 miles per hour. The distance from the Wall to Dorne is said to be (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/27/faster-than-a-speeding-dragon-how-is-everyone-in-game-of-thrones/) 3,000 miles. Let's inflate that to 3,700 miles for it not being a straight path at sea.

Looking at this map (http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/index.php), I'll guess that Mereen to Dorne is about the same distance — a one-way trip would take less than 8 days. If Daenerys is going straight for the throne, Mereen to King's Landing (5,000 miles at the most?) would take less than 11 days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 29, 2016, 11:57:52 PM
Sapochnik will not be back for Season 7.  :(

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-7-directors


Also, D&D are once again saying "13 more episodes" is their tentative plan.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/entertainment/game-of-thrones-ending/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 30, 2016, 10:34:13 AM
Aiden Gillen talked about that look exchanged between Littlefinger and Sansa after Jon was declared King of the North. While they apparently kept the meaning ambiguous on set (and probably in the script), these are his thoughts:

There's a certain amount of, "I told you so. Is this what you want? Can you trust him?" And all of that has been said anyway, in the previous scene. But there's also a degree of excitement, because the lords are pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow, and we didn't necessarily know it would go that way. Speaking for Littlefinger, it was one of those moments where you go, "Fuck! Maybe this is a bigger thing than I thought it would be. How are we going to deal with this?" Given that he enjoys chaos and uncertainty and the thrill of all of that, it was a big moment for him.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/06/aidan-gillen-littlefinger-sansa-game-of-thrones.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 03, 2016, 01:26:59 PM
I also can't see right now that they have much story for 13 episodes, mainly for Winterfell.

Let's see what could happen:

Winterfell
A conflict between LF is a given; I used to think Jon would go to Castle Black but now that he is KoN don't know how his brothers would receive them, although, he could get a raven that Bran arrived there so he makes the trip to pick him up and Ghost too while He's at it, still, right now I don't think he has much enemies in the north so that trip should be safe and easy.
Speaking of Bran, since his uncle said he can't cross the wall because He's death, wouldn't the white walkers have the same problem? Or they can because he touched Bran and the spell will be broken? Also, death people have crossed, remember that bold zombie Jon killed in the old Bear's room back in season 1? So we have to assume WW will cross the wall.

Danaerys
A clash at sea with Euron will definitely happen, It's just a matter of the timing, before she lands in Dorne or after she sails, and in that battle someone should fall from Danny's camp, not Tyrion but maybe one of the Greyjoys or one of his dragons???

Melisandre
She would probably meet either Brienne (not good for her) or Thoros and company, but she can't join them on their trip to the north since Jon would hang her, so I hope she joins Danny's camp at some point, I just hope we see more of her, I love that character.


Oh well, I hate the first Throne-less Sunday...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2016, 04:08:46 PM
Good stuff. I'm on the same page. They need to think of ways to complicate inevitable things. Although (vague future spoilers?), this EW interview with D&D is very insightful:

Quote"Once she gets on those ships and crosses West, that's when the clock on the end game starts ticking," Weiss says. "The question has been: When is she going to get back across the Narrow Sea? When is she going to take back her homeland? It's been a long time for her, and it's been something that's such an imperative for people watching. You know she's not going to go there for a beach vacation."

Quips Benioff: "Beach vacations are way better in Essos."

"She summers in Essos," concedes Weiss. "But when she gets back to Westeros, it's on. Her return is the first domino."

In terms of big open questions, Euron was my first, but this is definitely #2:

I've heard a fair amount of speculation that Bran will bring the wall down by going through it. The wall contains protective magic (like the tree), and Bran is marked, which means his crossing the wall may allow the Night King to get through or even destroy the wall.

I fear that's what's going to happen. Could they pull it off without making us hate Bran for his incompetence?

So when they approached the wall in this episode, and Benjen was all like "go ahead, don't want to make you late, good luck," I got very suspicious. When Benjen says goodbye, he says "I wish you both good fortune" (weirdly emotionless). At this point, the camera lingers on his expression for several seconds — he literally shifts his eyes back and forth a bit, settling on a creepy subtle smirk (cropped screenshot below), as if to say "lol you guys have no idea what hell you're about to unleash."

Is it possible that Benjen is an agent for the white walkers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on July 05, 2016, 10:22:45 AM
So my brother-in-law and I were consoling each other at 4th July about the first GOT-less Sunday and our mother-in-law overheard us saying something along the lines of a "10 month wait" and immediately got excited that one of her daughters was pregnant. My mother-in-law, ladies and gents.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 05, 2016, 11:12:10 AM
It's going to be rough. I think I might do a rewatch of the whole series. Partially because this podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/) is doing one. I'll probably read the books once the series is over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 05, 2016, 04:39:06 PM
You haven't read the books? I thought you did...anyway, if you read book reviews you'll see as I did that for some A feast for crows is the lesser book of all, without spoiling anything, those guys are wrong, the chapters of Cersei alone are worth the whole book.

ok, just a vague spoiler about the theme of the first chapters of Cersei in AFFC: the aftermath of Tywin's murder is a thing of beauty that didn't make it to the show.


You guys probably have seen the beautiful death posters that Robert M. Ball does for every episode, here's the latest, if you haven't check the link below.

http://beautifuldeath.com/

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy251%2Ffbv%2F6_10-art_zps6jrvalsx.jpg&hash=aab6768690e0b7ec46f6a18d58a3a4fd1050d2a7)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 05, 2016, 07:21:31 PM
Those posters are amazing!

I did read the first few chapters of the first book, but I decided to experience the show first.

In other news, I got my email read on the podcast!

audio clip (http://xixax.com/jb/got-feedback.mp3)

It's based on our conversation here (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344875#msg344875). I'm a little disappointed, though. He cut out a big chunk and jumbled some words. (I guess it was long. And I don't always write in a radio-friendly style.) Their reaction was basically, "hmm yeah that seems right." I was hoping they'd go on a speculative tangent. I should include a clear question next time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 05, 2016, 09:20:25 PM
The issue with A Feast For Crows is the book as a whole. Because, yes, it contains amazing chapters. I forgot a lot of what happens in Book 4 and 5 and I'll probably read them again this year. It's two different stories, now, the books and the show. I prefer the G.R.R Martin telenovella, but the show had to be the way it is—more focused.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 14, 2016, 04:18:38 PM
Game of Thrones leads the Emmy nominations.

I have no clue how Sophie Turner didn't make the cut, though. She put in a stronger performance than anyone who was actually nominated. With the possible exception of Lena Headey. Alright, Lena Headey was better.

Not sure Dinklage or Emilia need to be getting nominations for this season. Swap in Natalie Dormer, Liam Cunningham, and Ian McShane.


Best Drama
Peter Dinklage (Sup Actor)
Kit Harington (Sup Actor)
Emilia Clarke (Sup Actor)
Lena Headey (Sup Actor)
Maisie Williams (Sup Actor)
Max von Sydow (Guest Actor)
Writing - David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for "Battle of the Bastards"
Directing - Miguel Sapochnik for "Battle of the Bastards"
Directing - Jack Bender for "The Door"
Outstanding Production Design
Outstanding Casting For A Drama Series
Outstanding Cinematography For A Single-Camera Series
Outstanding Costumes For A Period/Fantasy Series, Limited Series Or Movie
Outstanding Single-Camera Picture Editing For A Drama Series
Outstanding Hairstyling
Outstanding Interactive Program ("Game Of Thrones Main Titles 360 Experience")
Outstanding Makeup
Outstanding Sound Editing
Outstanding Sound Mixing
Outstanding Prosthetic Makeup
Outstanding Special Visual Effects
Outstanding Stunt Coordination

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/la-et-st-emmys-2016-nominees-winners-list-20160714-snap-story.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 18, 2016, 12:04:57 AM
Rewatching Season 1. Saw Episode 2 tonight.

At the time, so much was made of Sansa "lying" when asked to describe the scuffle with Joffrey. What she actually did was refuse to testify. "I don't remember, it all happened so fast" — barely qualifies as a lie because no one believes her, and she knows it. She refuses to corroborate Arya's story, but she also refuses to corroborate Joffrey's story. She actually sort of removes legitimacy from the proceeding, which might have been my move also, to be honest. This is not 100% honorable behavior, but she was put on the spot (recently awakened, even). Intensely confused about where her allegiances actually are, and what she should do next.

This strikes me as a failing of Ned Stark. He taught his sons how to be honorable, but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't think to give his daughters the same level of instruction. Sansa is suddenly in this position of power, but she has clearly not been prepared for it. Furthermore, Ned Stark has put himself and his family in this position where they are forced to make moral compromises. Which in the next scene leads him to slay a dire wolf, the very symbol of his house. Quite on the nose, actually. More than any significant commentary on Sansa, this sequence of events feels strongly symbolic of Ned straying from the North and from his Stark identity.

Anyway... The show is more poetic and more fully engaging in these early episodes than I remember. It's a delight.

Just two complaints, though. Viserys Targaryen is cartoonishly evil, at the same time that Joffrey's evil is unfolding with great subtlety. A bit of a weakness.

Secondly, this problem is actually worse than I remember:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2015, 01:09:10 AMIn the books, the consummation of Daenerys's marriage (in her POV chapter) was written as a romantic scene, consensual, and even briefly erotic (and to be clear, erotic for her, since it is literally from her point of view), adorned with flowery language, and set near a peaceful forest stream if I remember correctly. (And I think I do remember, because of how awkward it was to hear the stilted British audiobook narrator say "her wetness.") In the TV show, they decided Daenerys should be raped instead, on a dark wind-swept cliff. They decided that instead of starting the love story before the marriage, they should try to have it after she's raped, when she learns to accept things and transform her sexual servitude into pseudo-consent. (Turn that rape upside-down, girl!) I suppose it was supposed to develop her character, except this departure only had ill effects on the storytelling. It ended up scrambling this character (Daenerys) into a sufferer of stockholm syndrome, a woman who against all odds fell in love with her rapist (a truly inspiring tale for wives in arranged marriages, one could argue). Anytime thereafter when she said "my sun and stars," fondly recalling her true love Khal Drogo, we could only be quietly baffled by the disconnect.

The way it plays out in the show reeks of a male sex fantasy superimposed on this otherwise very carefully-observed narrative. They didn't have a female writer until Season 2, and unfortunately that is very obvious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 20, 2016, 11:10:19 AM
Definitely have to revise my argument about the Daenerys & Khal Drogo romance. I hadn't read far enough to realize that it's equally problematic in the book. GRRM actually tries to have it both ways, and the romantic scene that I quoted turns out to be incongruous. So basically, this is still a major plot problem, but it's not really a show invention.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 20, 2016, 11:38:43 AM
I've only read the first handful of chapters but I assumed the case here was something like she was a scared, young, and overly obedient girl 'dutifully' adapting to a barbaric culture? I mean it's unpleasant but probably makes sense in the context of that world/era/etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 20, 2016, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: Lottery on July 20, 2016, 11:38:43 AM
I've only read the first handful of chapters but I assumed the case here was something like she was a scared, young, and overly obedient girl 'dutifully' adapting to a barbaric culture? I mean it's unpleasant but probably makes sense in the context of that world/era/etc.

Right. The only problem is that we're meant to believe she genuinely fell in love with her rapist, to the point that she calls him "my moon and stars" etc. I mean, if that's the story, that's fine, but it changes her character in ways that might not be intended. Even in Season 6, she seems to look back on him fondly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2016, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 18, 2016, 12:04:57 AM
Re watching Season 1. Saw Episode 2 tonight.

At the time, so much was made of Sansa "lying" when asked to describe the scuffle with Joffrey. What she actually did was refuse to testify. "I don't remember, it all happened so fast" — barely qualifies as a lie because no one believes her, and she knows it. She refuses to corroborate Arya's story, but she also refuses to corroborate Joffrey's story. She actually sort of removes legitimacy from the proceeding, which might have been my move also, to be honest. This is not 100% honorable behavior, but she was put on the spot (recently awakened, even). Intensely confused about where her allegiances actually are, and what she should do next.

well put JB, I actually never was on the hate Sansa bandwagon, and neither understood why she was disliked by so many, she was a 14 yo girl that was put under tremendous pressure from the start, and all things considered she reacted pretty good at every awful thing that happened to her. Right now she finally has the knowledge and power to make/build her future.


Have you re-watched episode 5 yet? (the wolf and the lion)

I did by pure coincidence yesterday and oh boy, a lot of shit happens that I missed the fist time I saw it.

The conversation between Varys and Illyrio Mopatis that Arya overhears reveals so much, then there's the throne room encounter of Varys and Littlefinger, their scenes where always good.

Arya then tries to warn Ned but unfortunately she doesn't have clear what she heard.

There's also Tyrion, the one that everyone fell on love with, saving Lady Stark from the mountain men attack and then meeting Lysa breast feeding a grown kid.

And the great honest talk between Cersei and Robert, which isn't in the books actually, about their marriage, the realm and his love of Lyanna Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 23, 2016, 12:21:23 PM
I'm limiting myself to 1 per week, following with the podcast rewatch. But I'll chime in on those things when I get there.

Sansa is not great at this point in the story. She's super immature, kind of self-centered, and not especially heroic. So I understand the dislike to a degree. But the hatred always baffled me. People loved to compare her to Arya, but I always knew Sansa's character would turn out to be more interesting.

This is the scene that completely won me over. How could it not? That look at 1:50 is legendary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRoVIpczcrY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 23, 2016, 02:25:16 PM
A lot of people don't understand that for a character to have a satisfying arc over the course of a story, they need to start from a point where they then have somewhere to evolve to. I think it's a byproduct of television historically not really being a long-form storytelling medium. It's a fairly recent development that we have a lot of shows in which an overarching narrative unfolds over the course of several years, and characters change and adapt along with the story. People are used to being introduced to a character in the first episode and having that expectation of knowing what that character will be like for the duration of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2016, 02:25:39 PM
Currently listening to Hardcore Game of Thrones (http://lp.howl.fm/hgot/). It's nothing short of amazing and makes me want to read all the books right now (but I will wait).

Anyway, some random insights:

Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros with three dragons. Sound familiar? I imagined he had a fleet of them, but nope, just three. With those dragons, he was able to instantly immolate entire battlefields of soldiers, or burn everything inside a castle and essentially melt the stone. Nuclear weapons are an apt comparison. I suspect we haven't seen in the show how powerful Dany's dragons actually are... not even close.

A dragon apparently bonds strongly with one person and won't let anyone else ride it. So the prospect of Tyrion riding a dragon (or Bran warging into one) seems unlikely. But I suppose the rules could be shifting.

Tyrion heritage conspiracy corner! In addition to the evidence I've already brought up ("you're no son of mine" etc.), the timeline is very interesting. Around the time that Aerys Targaryen (the mad king) becomes increasingly interested in Tywin's wife Joanna (in a very creepy and very public way), she gets pregnant with Tyrion. When Tyrion is born, Tywin is devastated, and Aerys is delighted by his suffering.

Aerys later appoints Jaime to the king's guard, which forces him to renounce his title and claims to his family's inheritance. Therefore, Tyrion becomes the new heir to House Lannister. This was done to twist the knife in poor Tywin, but was it also done to essentially corrupt House Lannister with Targaryen blood forever? Seems like a decent possibility.

Not sure this has much practical significance, but it's interesting: Tyrion would actually be the oldest Targaryen. Rhaegar is dead. Tyrion was born before Viserys (who is dead anyway), Daenerys, and Jon (who is Daenerys's nephew).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 18, 2016, 01:23:23 PM
Deadline has an excellent interview with Dan & David:

http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-emmys-interview-1201803698/

A couple semi-spoilery highlights:

"That's what so much of next season is going to be about; finding out what Cersei's mindset is, and who is she? . . . Who is she, without her children? The answer is something you'll find out about next season."

"Cersei will do anything to win . . . A loveless Cersei is a fearsome thing."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 18, 2016, 03:44:19 PM
I don't want Robot Cersei. We'll see. At this point, what Jaime will do is more interesting than Cersei. Her arc is over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on September 24, 2016, 01:01:57 AM
Well. I just watched this for the first time. All of it. Over the past 3 months and several long work trips where I had 10+ hour flights and I was binge watching an entire season on a flight. I had tried to watch the show once before but didn't get into it, and I knew I had to give it a real chance.

Holy shit.

Watching all of this for the first time in such a short amount of time is mind blowing on so many levels. I've been slowly reading this thread avoiding future spoilers and having practically nobody to talk to after each episode, so the only way was to put on the next one.

I will come back with more to say after I process for a few days. I'm so sad I'm caught up now, both because now I have to wait many months, but also because we are so close to the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 24, 2016, 01:44:05 AM
Wow, I can't imagine watching it that way. There's so much to absorb in a single episode. I can see how that would be overwhelming.

Most of the "future spoilers" are just speculation or obvious stuff. Since you're caught up, there's probably not much to worry about.

Do you agree with us that Season 6 is probably the best? I just rewatched Season 1, and it was a little rough around the edges... a handful of cringey moments that are completely absent from recent episodes. (Mainly the sexposition.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on September 25, 2016, 12:50:58 PM
I haven't been able to decide which season is the best yet. Season 1 is definitely not my favorite as I wasn't that interested or connected to the characters, and Ned Stark dying was obviously a big shocker. It makes you realize that nobody will ever be safe.

Season 6 is when things finally come together. Everything moves slow in general (you really notice when you are binge watching), like when the dragons are born and someone says "it will be many years until they are fully grown" and I knew I would have to wait a long time to see them doing what they are doing now.

The characters finally meeting or reuniting is such a huge part of this show, and for many seasons (Red Wedding being one of the biggest) it feels like it will never happen, so Season 6 definitely starts paying off in different ways. Getting rid of Ramsey, Frey, High Sparrow, etc means a lot of loose ends are being tied up and we are heading full steam into the final chapter.

It's been awesome reading the forums slowly as I went through the episodes, because even though there were a few spot in predictions, the majority of speculation is very far off and I love how this show has been able to continue surprising us even when it feels like we know what will happen. I'm already bummed I can't keep watching.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on January 23, 2017, 01:05:11 PM
I'm not entirely convinced cinema is dead, but if it is dying, this show will deliver the ultimate death punch.

Quote from: Kal on September 24, 2016, 01:01:57 AMWell. I just watched this for the first time. All of it. Over the past 3 months and several long work trips where I had 10+ hour flights and I was binge watching an entire season on a flight.

Samesies. I've spent the last few months on plane embarrassing myself with involuntary cheers, gasps, and screams as I sipped on cheap airline wine and binged through this bastard. One benefit of binge watching is you get to bypass stupid controversies and over-analyzation from recap culture, which I think is starting to ruin TV. Although, I am excited to watch the final season(s) with the rest of the world and join the conversation.

Quote from: Kal on September 25, 2016, 12:50:58 PMI haven't been able to decide which season is the best yet.

Season 6! By far the best, although I don't think there has been a bad season. The "Winds of Winter" joins Breaking Bad's "Face Off" and "Half Measures" as my top 3 favorite hours of TV ever. OMG that haunting piano score in the opening sequence before Cersie does you know what! (Sorry I'm still on a high from finishing season 6 last night).

I love love love everything about this show. Now I'm excited to dig through this thread and see what you boys have been arguing about.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 23, 2017, 11:37:42 PM
Yeah, Season 6 for sure. It ended with two transcendently great episodes. They would stand up to any other show on a list of best TV episodes of all time, surely.

I don't think 5 would be anyone's favorite season. It's... problematic... as we discussed here at length. And yet, it ends with 3 of the best GoT episodes ever, including "Hardhome" and "The Dance of Dragons."

I rewatched Season 1 a few months ago. It doesn't necessarily have a lot of replay value, actually. It has lots of character introductions that are not particularly enlightening the second time around. The sexposition can be hilariously over-the-top. And the production value is not quite all there yet.

But honestly... The great thing about GoT is that there aren't really "bad" episodes or seasons. It mostly just all flows together.

Anyway, welcome aboard cbrad!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 09, 2017, 04:11:26 PM
Premiere date: July 16, 2017


HBO Made Us Watch Ice Melt To Find Out The 'Game Of Thrones' Season 7 Premiere Date (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-premiere-date_us_58c1909be4b0ed71826ac0fa)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 30, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxWfvtnHtS0
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 04, 2017, 05:35:49 PM
Four 'Game Of Thrones' Offshoot Series In Works At HBO With George R. R. Martin

http://deadline.com/2017/05/game-of-thrones-universe-series-prequel-sequel-spinoff-hbo-george-r-r-martin-dan-weiss-david-benioff-1202084257/

The network would not specify whether the series would be prequels, sequels, spinoffs or companion series to GoT — or all of the above — only noting that each project would "explore different time periods of George R. R. Martin's vast and rich universe" in his epic fantasy book series A Song of Ice and Fire.

GoT creators/executive producers Dan Weiss and David Benioff, who are finishing up the upcoming  seventh season and already are in the midst of writing and preparing for the series' eighth and final season, are attached as executive producers on all projects alongside Martin but will not be involved in the writing. The four potential GoT offshoot series will be written by:

Max Borenstein (Godzilla, Kong: Skull Island)

Jane Goldman (Kick-Ass, Kingsman and X-Men franchises), George R. R. Martin

Brian Helgeland (Mystic River, A Knights Tale)

Carly Wray (HBO's The Leftovers & Westword, AMC's Mad Men), George R. R. Martin

HBO stresses that all four projects are in development. There is no set timetable for them, and they will be evaluated when the scripts are completed.

It is logical to assume that the network would like to have a new GoT-themed series launch behind the final season of the blockbuster mothership show.

HBO brass had hinted about trying to expand the popular GoT franchise with additional series, including a possible prequel or spinoff. Martin, who is under an overall deal at HBO, also had been alluding to new projects he has in the works at the network.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2017, 01:22:44 PM
Official trailer. As usual, a little spoilery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giYeaKsXnsI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2017, 04:21:09 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2017, 01:22:44 PM
Official trailer. As usual, a little spoilery.

You mean the Daenerys scenes right? Other than those there isn't much info, but she is shown at what it appears to be Casterly Rock, which means she landed safely, not that I thought she would be killed in a battle crossing the narrow sea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2017, 12:03:11 PM
More spoilery than the last trailer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mlhnt0jMlg&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 21, 2017, 12:32:54 PM
GoT season 7

1 : People walk slowly.
2 : People walk faster.
3 : People prepare for battle.
4 : Battle #1
5 : Battle #2
6 : Battle #3
7 : People are worried.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2017, 11:24:21 PM
I like that Sansa appears to be giving us a new version of Jack's "live together, die alone" speech. My two favorite shows are converging!

Going into Season 7, this has really been on my mind:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2016, 02:25:39 PMAegon Targaryen conquered Westeros with three dragons. Sound familiar? I imagined he had a fleet of them, but nope, just three. With those dragons, he was able to instantly immolate entire battlefields of soldiers, or burn everything inside a castle and essentially melt the stone. Nuclear weapons are an apt comparison. I suspect we haven't seen in the show how powerful Dany's dragons actually are... not even close.

Just to reiterate: Dragons of this size can literally melt castles and burn an entire battlefield. I predict (or hope) that Daenerys will give Westeros a spectacular display of force, and they will respond with a somewhat peaceful surrender. Then the show will reveal the full power of the dragons in their battle against the white walkers.


Definitely Spoilers

So it looks like Euron is attacking King's Landing. I haven't read theories on this, but I'll throw in two scenarios:

– Euron is dumb and attacks King's Landing before Daenerys gets there. Then maybe Daenerys flanks him from behind, destroying both his forces and Cersei's when they're already battling.

– Daenerys actually fought Euron at sea earlier and defeated him. She has commandeered his ships and sends them in as a distraction. Then she attacks King's Landing from a different position.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2017, 01:11:25 PM
Speculation spoilers

Some ideas, after knowing a bit more...

I'm struggling with the idea that Euron can win a battle against Daenerys, but it actually might happen. Perhaps he attacks her at sea (it looks like an ambush at night), weakening her forces, then escapes to join forces with Cersei, promising to defend King's Landing from the sea or some such thing. That would explain why Daenerys appears to be battling Lannister forces on land and probably taking Casterly Rock — she needed to approach King's Landing by land.

I just don't know how Euron can ambush Daenerys and then not get caught and utterly destroyed. Maybe he does, and my theory from the last post is true. There is no way he can suddenly assemble a credible force against Daenerys when she's been assembling forces for years and now has almost everyone with her. Unless Euron is able to summon a kraken.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 25, 2017, 08:33:28 AM
SPOILERS

It might be a silly thing to say but: how can you fight Daenerys? She has three dragons. That's why I am worried about this new season. The way is open for Daenerys. Also: it will be the first time, truly, that the show is entirely outside the narrative of the books. Can they make it as thrilling?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2017, 01:28:26 AM
"Season 7 episodes will be their customary hour-long duration, but the finale of Season 7 clocks in at 82 minutes. In Season 8, the episodes could be in the 80-plus-minute range of a feature film, as series like Sherlock and Black Mirror have done."

http://deadline.com/2017/07/season-8-game-of-thrones-episodes-could-be-feature-length-1202123353/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 16, 2017, 10:30:39 PM
Not the best start to a season but it was good seeing the characters again.

SPOILERS

Glad to see the Freys stamped out.

Happy to see Bran/Meera out of immediate danger. I really want to see more of them- especially in the company of normal people.

Sansa and Jon scenes are great. Not fond of the Mormont, I'll be honest.

Hound/Beric/Thoros is excellent stuff.

Sam's scenes were unconventional and ate up a lot of screentime. Not sure if it was exactly worth it.

How the hell did Euron manage to make an armada that big and powerful? Ridiculous.

Cersei's stuff doesn't really interest me anymore. I hope Jaime goes somewhere more interesting soon.

And finally, Dany made it to the mainland. Has Dragonstone ever looked that good before?

Man, fuck Ed Sheeran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 16, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
Jeremy Podeswa is not a great director. So I cranked my expectations down a few notches. But what I discovered was pretty interesting. When you have a mediocre director handling an episode, that really exposes everyone else's strengths. And in particular I thought the writing was fantastic. Effortlessly sharp and inspiring. Manipulative in the most enjoyable way. Thank God we have D&D guiding this show. They really know how to deliver on pivotal moments.

The ending was so perfect. Gotta know when to be quiet. I was holding my breath waiting for a stinger at the end, and it was delivered. The cold open was pretty great, too. I like that they could credibly pull a Salud. Rewatching that cold open reveals so many new layers, by the way — a stunning performance there.

Hound & co. was also a showcase of very good acting. That all really worked for me. Would have liked to see a flash or two of what he was seeing in the flames, though, just to know he wasn't pulling their leg (which I suspected at first).

Euron is interesting. And kind of terrifying. He and Cersei are worthy villains for this season.

Calling it now: In the finale, we see Ed Sheeran decapitated in battle.

Jon made the right call in that meeting. I understand Sansa's position, but I think she's wrong. I also suspect she plans to lead Littlefinger on. That may not have been part of it, but we will probably see something soon to that end.

I'm aching for this Stark/Targaryen alliance. (My thoughts on that are here (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344875#msg344875).) I assumed Dany would be seeking out Jon, but it looks like it'll be the other way around. A nice twist. I need to see Sansa vouch for Theon and Tyrion, who were some of her only allies in very dark times. Olenna, for that matter. I doubt Jon will need to be convinced. He's desperate for people, and the Targaryen alliance are obviously the good guys.

There will be resistance from others. Northerners don't like Targaryens. The last war with them was very recent, even. Just need to convince them that Daenerys is a rebranded Targaryen. Only problem is they don't really have access to Dany's propaganda, like her "break the wheel" speech and so forth.

I still think Dany will be easy to convince:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 06:21:36 PMDaenerys would be a fool not to take advantage of the incredible loyalty the Starks have in the North. (She can't be interested in scorching a bunch of northerners while trying to win hearts and minds.) Considering she's okay with leaving the Iron Islands semi-independent, the North by comparison is a dream scenario for her. You're dealing with this super honorable house with two leaders who are decidedly not power-hungry, who are not raping or pillaging anyone, who yearn for an end to the chaos of Westeros even more than Daenerys does.

Anyway...

Quote from: Lottery on July 16, 2017, 10:30:39 PMHow the hell did Euron manage to make an armada that big and powerful? Ridiculous.

Yeah... I'm trying to remember exactly what portion of his ships were stolen, but I don't think it was even made very clear at the time. "My best ships" we are told. It's problematic that his story last season ended with him calling for a mass manufacture of ships, because that only confused the issue.

The timeline works, though. Theon and Yara fled the Iron Islands, making some stops along the way, then got to Daenerys. They stayed there for a little while, forming the alliance and perhaps waiting some more time for all the other allies to show up, so they could all depart together. Then they had to make that journey back to Westeros. Was surely weeks, could have been months.

Euron's task was simpler: make a bunch of ships, then sail to King's Landing. If they are really fast shipbuilders, I could buy that. We didn't get any information to tell us how difficult a task that was for them. But I'll give GoT the benefit of the doubt here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 16, 2017, 11:58:26 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 16, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
The timeline works, though. Theon and Yara fled the Iron Islands, making some stops along the way, then got to Daenerys. They stayed there for a little while, forming the alliance and perhaps waiting some more time for all the other allies to show up, so they could all depart together. Then they had to make that journey back to Westeros. Was surely weeks, could have been months.

Yes, but they can no longer fuck with it much given that everyone is on the same timeline, Arya used to be on her own but she's now in Westeros and the news about the Freys already reached Kingslanding and Jon's too btw.

Jon says that Cersei is a thousand miles away, that doesn't seem that far, the speed of a walking horse is aprox 4 miles per hour, let's say they travel 50 a day, they would reach Winterfell in 20 days...maybe I'm over thinking this, let's hope they handle all stories as effective as S6.

More tomorrow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 17, 2017, 05:29:02 AM
I forget that this thread was titled spoilers.

This season will have to a great balancing act- in terms of character screentime, valuable story content and well as managing events realistically and logically and timelines. Everything is converging so even small inconsistencies will really weaken the plot. I can't make sense of the ships thing (they look way too awesome) and numerous.
I must admit the show has a lost the charm of earlier seasons in a way but everything coming together is really exciting.

I'm having trouble taking Euron entirely seriously, I'm really hoping that come the end of the season he flips a switch and becomes something truly scary.
Cersei is a character who is best when she's surrounded by other people- her reactions and general scheming nature are always great to watch but it's not as interesting when everyone is so far away.

I reckon The North/Hound are the best parts of the show right now. I really enjoy watching Jon and Sansa discussing matters together.

I don't see Dany and gang as the outright good guys (I know what you meant though JB). She has some really special people with her and she has good intentions but I just don't see her that way. Honestly, I reckon Jon in his single-minded focus and avoidance of the Game is the purest and most well meaning character right now (I love him for that and he'll definitely need Sansa and Davos because of that). I think for that reason, Dany will take to him. Tyrion will vouch both ways. I reckon Jon will gave Dany whatever she wants as long as she helps him kill the WW.
I really hope, they'll approach Dany winning folks over to be realistic. I won't like it if she gives a speech and everyone comes to her side. Admittedly, dragons make for a good propaganda prop.

Also, whoever has Bran on their side has an upper hand. The more Bran scenes, the better because he knows so much/everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on July 17, 2017, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: Lottery on July 17, 2017, 05:29:02 AM
Also, whoever has Bran on their side has an upper hand. The more Bran scenes, the better because he knows so much/everything.

it will be interesting too see if bran is the reason for more stuff in the past. my favorite theory is that he made the mad king mad.

bran saw the vision, wildfire, the mad king and the white walkers and told him to "burn them all", meaning the white walkers. remember that in the end the mad king was just repeating that sentence just as hodor kept repeating hodor ("hold the door").

i don't know if it makes sense but it's a fun theory nevertheless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on July 18, 2017, 12:34:43 PM
Hodor can't be the only instance of Bran influencing the past. I just hope further instances aren't contrived. If you had described Hodor's "Hold The Door" scene in earlier seasons, it would've felt silly to me. The show executed it wonderfully though.

I like that Cersei is the one who sent for Euron, that makes more sense than the other way around. They almost made him likable in that scene. I'm sure we're in for some real darkness as far as his character is concerned. Ramsay is tough to top.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 18, 2017, 03:40:46 PM
Quote from: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 06:39:59 PM
I want and expect them to go all the way down the rabbit hole and come out the other side. I've long felt that a major theme of the overarching story is that the events of history are essentially an immovable force, that the players of the game are more swept up in the wave than they actually affect it, despite all their vanities to the contrary. How perfect a culmination of that thesis would it be to discover in the end that the whole of this world's history is a closed causal loop?

Quote from: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 07:05:18 PM
Quote from: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 06:48:38 PM
Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?

I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.

I still stand by all this. Time is a flat circle and all that. Bran is not altering the past so much as he is unwittingly playing out his role within a fixed timeline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 20, 2017, 10:32:39 PM
Called it.

Quote from: Fernando on June 02, 2015, 10:29:43 PM
can you imagine a giant white walker? he would end all, they'd probably need a catapult full of dragon glass to beat that thing.

and not one, three that we saw...


It just occurred to me that when Bran meets Jon and Sansa and tell them who really Jon is son of, because of the way he is, I think he will step aside and Sansa will take the northern throne since she would be the only Stark that can do so, obviously Bran is out and Arya if she lives wont be interested in that.

OK I'm saying it like it's a given, maybe he doesn't meet both but at least one of them, Jon seems the logical choice if he goes to Castle Black for Ghost, or Bran takes Ghost to Winterfell...

Now if Sansa becomes Queen of the North, who will she choose to marry if it comes to that? Won't be her fucking cousin or LF, that's for sure...  :yabbse-undecided:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 21, 2017, 10:01:06 PM
It happened again! I got a theory of mine read on the most popular (and also best) Game of Thrones podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/)! Which actually hit #1 on iTunes earlier this week. So technically I was on the most popular podcast in the world. (?)

The theory itself is slightly bonkers. But it was late Sunday night and I couldn't resist...

CLIP (http://xixax.com/jb/got-feedback2.mp3)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 21, 2017, 10:26:33 PM
Curious idea. Though honestly, anything other than Jaime himself will be disappointing regarding Valonqar.

That or Euron after he wins her over and goes into ultra horrific murder mode (who is Balon's little brother).

Alternatively GRRM sidesteps all this theorising and prophecy-twisting and plays it straight and has Tyrion straight up choke Cersei to death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 21, 2017, 10:37:07 PM
Cersei already burned much of King's Landing to a crisp, butchering untold numbers of civilians (D&D say "hundreds, probably thousands"), using wildfire in the way Jaime has been trying to prevent his whole life. And Cersei's actions led to the death of their last child. What else could she do to actually enrage Jaime? I'm open to that possibility, and it's the conventional wisdom. Just saying, many of those shoes have already dropped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 21, 2017, 11:01:07 PM
Honestly, I'm pretty mad that Jaime didn't react more heavily to Cersei's Mad King act. It made no sense to me.
Admittedly, I can't think up many potential scenarios but I'm positive Jaime will drop her before the end of the show. His arc has stagnated a little but I'm hopeful he'll find his dignity again. This is a dude who gave up his legacy and reputation for the greater good. For all the bad Jaime has done, Cersei is truly  beyond the point of no return. Jaime's skeptical of all her in pretty much every respect now. Cersei's story has been one of gradual isolation and I expect it to continue that way.

Cersei's downfall is imminent anyway. Nobles and common folk hate her. She has no funds. Her city is cut-off, unsupported and partially destroyed. Her army might still be in recovery. Everyone is in open rebellion to her, I don't think she has any actual supporters left. Jaime obviously inspires more loyalty in the military than her. After all that's happened, her mind is probably gone. I just hope she gets offed in a personal way.

EDIT:
Euron is the wildcard of course. He'll shake things up in a meaningful way otherwise he's a pointless character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 22, 2017, 10:35:54 AM
Give Jaime time. There are six episodes left.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 10:49:20 AM
I'm open to it. Just seems there was not enough emotional setup for that in the premiere. Is Jaime really that cold and calculating? He seemed depressed more than angry. No signs whatsoever that he is furious about what she's done. But that could be attributed to bad directing.

We got a whole scene late last season with Jaime reaffirming his undying loyalty to Cersei. And Jaime has a somewhat separate responsibility to the Lannister armed forces. So what will Cersei have to do? Probably more mad king stuff? Torturing people in public, etc. I can see that.

The next 2 episodes, by the way, are directed by Mark Mylod, the worst Game of Thrones director. So buckle up. Then Jeremy Podeswa comes back to end the season. Strange choices.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 22, 2017, 10:54:00 AM
I think he can't react immediately to what Cersei did. But he'll do something once the shock is gone. The same it takes time for Trump to be impeached despite all the obvious insanity in front of our eyes.

Of course, I'm not 100% sure about that. Maybe his love won't let him kill her. But I think he'll try.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 02:23:10 PM
WTF, I just saw my theory being presented to GoT cast members on Twitter's Comic-Con feed! Jacob Anderson (Grey Worm) said "mind blown" and did the explody gesture with his hands. Sophie Turner said it was 10/10 certain. Surreal...

Obviously it's no so out-there that people can't be coming up with this possibility independently. And I found an instance of this theory (though not in the same form) as early as last month. So it could be a coincidence. But the wording of the question was strikingly similar to mine, and that podcast ep aired yesterday. I giggled with glee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 22, 2017, 02:51:58 PM
Can you summarize your theory here (for posterity and because I don't want to have to listen to the podcast)?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 03:04:53 PM
Oh my gosh, it's all in the first 40 seconds of the clip I posted.

But I'll post what I emailed them, with 2 things added:


What if Arya assassinates Jaime, acquires his face, then kills Cersei?

This seems like a convenient way for Arya to get close to Cersei. It also allows Jaime to be the Valonqar, in a way. And it means Jaime and Cersei die around the same time. [that's also part of the lore, see this (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/85483-jaime-and-cersei-will-they-really-die-together/)]

I imagine this would happen in the season finale during some sort of chaos. [they didn't read this paragraph and it wouldn't need to happen that way, but it would be a big way to end this season]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 22, 2017, 03:27:52 PM
What am I, made of 40 seconds?

I actually didn't catch on that the link you posted was just the relevant clip, not the whole podcast. My bad.

Also, I like your theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 03:35:20 PM
Thanks. Still not sure I'd bet on it happening. For fans, I think it would be disappointing in some ways — less emotional catharsis and redemption for Jaime — but it would undercut expectations while still being true to the foreshadowing. And it would give Arya a mindblowing victory.

So I don't know, what would be more satisfying, that moment for Arya, or more redemption for Jaime? I'm not sure I can get all that excited about Jaime anymore, unless he starts showing some serious torment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 22, 2017, 04:53:55 PM
I don't like what Arya became in the books (before Martin doesn't seem to know what he is doing with her) and in the show. She's a list. With her powers, yes, she can just kill who she wants to kill. But there's no catharsis for me...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2017, 03:54:39 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 03:04:53 PM
What if Arya assassinates Jaime, acquires his face, then kills Cersei?

This seems like a convenient way for Arya to get close to Cersei. It also allows Jaime to be the Valonqar, in a way. And it means Jaime and Cersei die around the same time. [that's also part of the lore, see this (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/85483-jaime-and-cersei-will-they-really-die-together/)]

I imagine this would happen in the season finale during some sort of chaos. [they didn't read this paragraph and it wouldn't need to happen that way, but it would be a big way to end this season]

That's a good theory but can the show afford to get rid of them both this season? Which villains would be left off? WW and Euron, LF too perhaps, doesn't seem enough for next season.

Regardless of what happens, I think Cersei must have at least one more victory, probably against Dorne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 23, 2017, 04:26:37 PM
The consensus seems to be that Cersei will die this season. But I guess I agree with you. That seems less certain now that Euron might be a legitimate adversary for Daenerys at sea.

Also, rewatching the episode, and getting a good look at Euron's fleet, I think I should retract my opinion that he had enough time to build them. Looks like it would take a month to build one of those things. Unless they're prefab.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 23, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
To: which villains would be left off?

The White Walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on July 23, 2017, 05:28:19 PM
What's the probability the Waif is wearing Arya's face?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2017, 05:33:18 PM
Quote from: Drenk on July 23, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
To: which villains would be left off?

The White Walkers.

I know, I mentioned them but more than villains they are a threat (the biggest), but we don't see them making plans against their enemies (the living), they only go forward. I'm not sure the show can have only that, and the rest just figuring out how to beat them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2017, 11:18:03 PM
SPOILS S07E02


Damn, the story is moving fast.

So much for theorizing, Elaria and the sand snakes are done and so is Yara, or so it looked like she was hanged and WTF Theon, he's useless, what the hell can he do now? what is he good for?

Aside from that looks like Jon will meet Daenerys sooner rather than later, that should be interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 23, 2017, 11:26:43 PM
Thoroughly enjoyable episode. Considerably better than the last one.

Things are moving fast and things are intersecting. So good.

I was worried Tyrion would be useless like in the last season so his presence in this episode was most welcome.

I think Theon is almost too broken to fix. He couldn't win that situation in any way. Feel sorry for Yara though. She and Ellaria are Cersei's gift it seems.

Euron's laugh at the end of the sequence was magnificent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:32:16 AM
Agreed, the end of that scene is a standout moment. Incredible acting. And I think Mylod really stepped up in general.

So much is happening now. I'm overwhelmed. We actually got to see Olenna counseling Daenerys! And could she have given better advice?

The plan to capture King's Landing without Daenerys's forces was an okay political idea, but it was immediately obvious that was not going to work. I would guess their best shot is to take Casterly Rock and attack King's Landing by land. I would rather have those dragons scorching battlefields than contending with Euron (who, by the way, is far more terrifying than Cersei). The ballistas are... something... but any dragon worth its weight is going to dodge those, right? The scene with Qyburn actually revealed Cersei's weakness — that she doesn't have something innovative to deal with the dragons.

Varys knocked it out of the park in his big scene — both the actor and the character. It's great to get all of that out there. And I think I believe him. Love that it ended with a mutual understanding. Dany respects his straightforwardness.

So many random character things made me happy. Tyrion vouching for Jon. Sansa vouching for Tyrion! It's playing out exactly how I hoped. The only thing missing: Daenerys and Jon need to understand each other. This goes beyond their immediate practical needs — they need to understand what their camps have in common ideologically. Can they sit down and have a heart-to-heart?

When Jon left Winterfell, his little conflict with Sansa actually played out to both his and her advantage. Sansa showed that she has strong feelings about the North and loyalty, surely stirring the emotions of all the Stark-lovers in the room. You could really see Ned in Sansa's principled defiance. So everyone the Starks need to keep loyal are totally on board with Sansa. She proved herself right before she took power. Which was given to her, not sought, bestowing even more honor. I feel like this is explicitly setting the stage for Sansa eventually ruling the North on her own.

Arya is definitely dispatching Littlefinger when she gets back home, right? It would be funny if she uses a face that's already in her portfolio and frames the murder on a dead person.

Littlefinger, by the way, has no clue what he's doing. Just riding the wave of chaos until something clicks. And I really don't think it's going to happen for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on July 24, 2017, 01:49:22 AM
I pretty much loved everything in this episode.

There has been a lot emotional scenes over the years but these Arya scenes takes the price for me personally. The first one when she heard about Jon and then the second one with Nymeria... I don't know why, maybe because she has been my favorite character since the beginning. The emotional payoffs in these scenes are so good because the first seasons feels so long ago. I'm not sure if i'm ready for Arya meeting Jon tho, haha.

The only thing I kinda disliked was the last scene. It happened so abruptly and felt so rushed but I guess that was the point too, so whatever... enjoyed everything else quite a bit!

Oh, and Sam. You are the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 24, 2017, 08:16:46 AM
They've been trying to get rid off everything about Dorne since a long time, so, yes, I didn't really enjoy the ending, it feels like forwarding the easiest chess match possible. But the rest of the episode was solid. My favorite episode since a long time. Great characters moments. Even for Arya!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on July 24, 2017, 10:56:08 AM
Echoing what's been said. Loved everything about the episode and it's thrilling to see everyone coming together. When I watched all of GoT last year in 3 months, it was blowing my mind how long it was taking for characters like Jon and Dany to even cross paths or know of each others existence, but the more you watch the more you understand how it's all carefully planned. The fact that this is happening now it's incredible.

The Dorne sisters had to go unfortunately. They weren't my favorite characters because they were always talking too much and doing too little. I mean you expect to take Euron down with a whip? That scene was driving me crazy because I kept feeling (hoping) that Euron was getting stabbed but he wasn't really.

The Jorah scene, my god that was painful. I could feel it in my own skin. Arya finding our her siblings are still alive was so great. And the fact that everyone stood up for Tyrion was awesome. I honestly wish I had waited two more years and just watched the whole thing at once because the waiting for each episode after binging on 6 seasons all at once is too much!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on July 24, 2017, 11:01:20 AM
I'll be the outlier here and say I didn't love this episode. Everything felt rushed and that battle was so poorly shot. It was a geographical mess and there was no sense of where they came from, how they were able to sneak up, or how many people were involved.

Sam and Arya are saving the season so far. Gonna be sad when Arya misses Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 24, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
Arya missing Jon is a running gag at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:44:12 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 10:49:20 AMWe got a whole scene late last season with Jaime reaffirming his undying loyalty to Cersei. And Jaime has a somewhat separate responsibility to the Lannister armed forces. So what will Cersei have to do? Probably more mad king stuff? Torturing people in public, etc. I can see that.

How about this: Cersei tortures Ellaria (and/or her daughter) in public for killing Myrcella. (Minor Spoiler!) Actually, next week's episode is called The Queen's Justice, so something like that seems all but certain.

I can see that turning Jaime. Then we see him reluctantly/angrily leading the Lannister forces. He'll deserve that torment, too.


Quote from: RegularKarate on July 24, 2017, 11:01:20 AM[...] That battle was so poorly shot. It was a geographical mess and there was no sense of where they came from, how they were able to sneak up, or how many people were involved.

I agree on the surface. Mark Mylod is not a great action director. (We got so spoiled last season.) But I think it works for the scene. We take the POV of those who are ambushed, so it shouldn't be clear where they came from. The ensuing fight does have some problems (I thought Euron was getting stabbed, but apparently not), but I did properly feel the chaos and terror of that situation.

As for things feeling rushed, I have absolutely no problem with that. We are now in the era of payoffs. That's going to keep happening.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 12:54:09 PM
Are we sure Arya's actually going through with heading back to Winterfell? I interpreted her interaction with Nymeria as a realization that she's changed too much to go back to the way things were. "That's not you" means both that Nymeria has become a wild animal that needs to roam free, and that Arya is now a magical murder ninja whose sole purpose is bloody justice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:59:37 PM
I think it's just the former, not the latter. Realizing that Nymeria is wild makes sense. But I don't think that encounter was enough to make her change course again. It would be weird from a storytelling perspective to have her switch directions and head to Winterfell, then switch directions back and resume where she was going, all in one episode. Her face didn't say "I'm going the wrong way" to me at all. Just coming to peace with Nymeria's autonomy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:59:37 PM
I think it's just the former, not the latter. Realizing that Nymeria is wild makes sense. But I don't think that encounter was enough to make her change course again. It would be weird from a storytelling perspective to have her switch directions and head to Winterfell, then switch directions back and resume where she was going, all in one episode. Her face didn't say "I'm going the wrong way" to me at all. Just coming to peace with Nymeria's autonomy.

I'm probably over-reading it. Still, I don't think Arya makes it to Winterfell either way. She will be diverted somehow before she gets there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:44:12 PM
How about this: Cersei tortures Ellaria (and/or her daughter) in public for killing Myrcella. (Minor Spoiler!) Actually, next week's episode is called The Queen's Justice, so something like that seems all but certain.

The one thing that wasn't clear enough for me is who died there, because we get a glimpse of someone hanged (Yara right?) and another woman nailed there who I thought was Elaria, but now that you say this I think Elaria and her other girl are alive, now that I remember she pleads to be killed and they say no, but that shot was too dark to see, I blame my confusion to either the director or the editors.

Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:32:16 AM
So many random character things made me happy. Tyrion vouching for Jon. Sansa vouching for Tyrion! It's playing out exactly how I hoped. The only thing missing: Daenerys and Jon need to understand each other. This goes beyond their immediate practical needs — they need to understand what their camps have in common ideologically. Can they sit down and have a heart-to-heart?

Told you! I called that and I'm glad that happened, can't wait to see it.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:32:16 AM
When Jon left Winterfell, his little conflict with Sansa actually played out to both his and her advantage. Sansa showed that she has strong feelings about the North and loyalty, surely stirring the emotions of all the Stark-lovers in the room. You could really see Ned in Sansa's principled defiance. So everyone the Starks need to keep loyal are totally on board with Sansa. She proved herself right before she took power. Which was given to her, not sought, bestowing even more honor. I feel like this is explicitly setting the stage for Sansa eventually ruling the North on her own.

Arya is definitely dispatching Littlefinger when she gets back home, right? It would be funny if she uses a face that's already in her portfolio and frames the murder on a dead person.

Littlefinger, by the way, has no clue what he's doing. Just riding the wave of chaos until something clicks. And I really don't think it's going to happen for him.

You know, there's one thing that keeps bothering me to no end every time I see LF with any Stark, specially Sansa but this comes since the second season when he meets Cat. In this world words travel fast, it is known (sorry), so how the hell word never traveled that LF put a knife in Ned's neck at the throne room? And even what he said, "I told you not to trust me", I mean Varys was there, so how come he never mentioned that to Sansa? Only mild warnings that she shouldn't trust him and all that, that meeting with Catelyn at Renly's camp, we know Renly knew something about it because he didn't stay at King's Landing, not one person told Catelyn how the betrayal worked out when she joined Renly? Seriously.

Right now Sansa should know about it, I can't believe she is clueless but let's just say she doesn't know that, but by now she must have told Jon how LF killed her aunt and how he gave her to Ramsey and all that shit, even if he saved them at the battle, his head should be in a spike, if she came clean now that he killed Aunt Lysa sure enough the Lords of the Vale would understand, and his idiot cousin would want to throw him through the moon door, but there he is alive and trying to poison Jon and Sansa's relationship.

And...in this episode, what happened between Jon and LF down in the crypts, that was something worth sharing with Sansa BEFORE he leaves, but no, he goes straight to his horse to hit the road.

Quote from: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 02:11:19 PM
I'm probably over-reading it. Still, I don't think Arya makes it to Winterfell either way. She will be diverted somehow before she gets there.

She could meet again with the hound and the brotherhood without banners...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PMYara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.

Same. Great foreshadowing/mirroring in the previous scene, too. Yara says Theon will be her protector, then Theon "fails to intervene" when Ellaria moves in on her.


Quote from: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PMTold you! I called that and I'm glad that happened, can't wait to see it.

Yeah, Tyrion vouched for Jon in exactly the way you said he would. Tyrion even used the quote you referenced, I think, in his letter to Jon.


Quote from: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PMYou know, there's one thing that keeps bothering me to no end every time I see LF with any Stark, specially Sansa but this comes since the second season when he meets Cat. In this world words travel fast, it is known (sorry), so how the hell word never traveled that LF put a knife in Ned's neck at the throne room? And even what he said, "I told you not to trust me", I mean Varys was there, so how come he never mentioned that to Sansa? Only mild warnings that she shouldn't trust him and all that, that meeting with Catelyn at Renly's camp, we know Renly knew something about it because he didn't stay at King's Landing, not one person told Catelyn how the betrayal worked out when she joined Renly? Seriously.

I hope you're wrong about who knows, because that's a significant plot hole. I wonder if a few people knew but didn't want to risk becoming Littlefinger's enemy.

How about this. When Jon meets with Daenerys's camp, they want to know who's in his camp. He reveals that Littlefinger is there — then Varys gives him a dire warning and reveals Littlefinger's collaboration against Ned. Then perhaps Olenna chimes in too: "Oh yes, he helped me assassinate someone once, wouldn't trust that dude."

There are theories that Arya will kill Littlefinger, take his face, and sow chaos as him. Which is like... chaos upon chaos. Or maybe she'll have specific objectives. She could probably get a meeting with Cersei or Jaime as Littlefinger. If she wants to preserve plausible deniability for her loved ones, maybe she will stop short of Winterfell and catch Littlefinger taking a pee outside or something.


Quote from: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PMAnd...in this episode, what happened between Jon and LF down in the crypts, that was something worth sharing with Sansa BEFORE he leaves, but no, he goes straight to his horse to hit the road.

I think we've learned that Jon and Sansa have serious communication issues. Best that he's leaving, because that gets a little frustrating to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 04:09:24 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PMYara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.

Same. Great foreshadowing/mirroring in the previous scene, too. Yara says Theon will be her protector, then Theon "fails to intervene" when Ellaria moves in on her.

That scene also mirrored Ramsey forcing Theon to watch him rape Sansa. Yara inadvertently triggered the PTSD that then prevented him from attempting to save her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
Quote from: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PM
The one thing that wasn't clear enough for me is who died there, because we get a glimpse of someone hanged (Yara right?) and another woman nailed there who I thought was Ellaria, but now that you say this I think Ellaria and her other girl are alive, now that I remember she pleads to be killed and they say no, but that shot was too dark to see, I blame my confusion to either the director or the editors.

I saw again the scene and just realized that the one hanged is the Sand Snake with the whip, in fact they used her own whip to hang her, and the other one is the sister that Euron killed first with a sword through her stomach, so...Yara must be alive and locked, I'm telling you they fucked up with that scene, why create confusion? Unless it was clear with everyone else except me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 05:28:10 PM
It makes sense that Ellaria would be (at least part of) the gift Euron is bringing to Cersei, since Ellaria murdered Cersei's daughter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 25, 2017, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 12:54:09 PM
Are we sure Arya's actually going through with heading back to Winterfell? I interpreted her interaction with Nymeria as a realization that she's changed too much to go back to the way things were. "That's not you" means both that Nymeria has become a wild animal that needs to roam free, and that Arya is now a magical murder ninja whose sole purpose is bloody justice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZB-bxAHv4s
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 25, 2017, 05:45:50 PM
I feel like that kinda sorta maybe supports my interpretation, somewhat? I definitely went too far in my initial read of it. Rewatching the scene, I agree that Arya is still sticking to the plan of heading to Winterfell, but I definitely think the encounter with Nymeria planted a seed of doubt in her mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 25, 2017, 05:51:55 PM
"Who am I?" is a question she's maybe asking herself now. Martin is playing with the notion in the books, giving nicknames to many characters instead of their first name...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 26, 2017, 06:31:20 PM
Speculation spoilers

I've heard convincing arguments from two good sources (non-Reddit, not informed by the production leak) that Cersei will survive the season. Tied up in this line of thinking is that Daenerys will actually beat the white walkers first, then finally conquer Westeros next season. Any thoughts?

In previews, we've seen unsullied in Casterly Rock. It seems likely that Daenerys's forces will take it. That presents a practical dilemma, though.

Here's one solution:

- Dany takes Casterly Rock.
- White walkers breach the wall. (Shouldn't be too hard, with their frozen giants and whatnot.)
- Dany decides to just hold Casterly Rock for now. Instead of advancing to King's Landing, she turns north to fight the white walkers.
- Dany leaves someone behind (unsullied and/or Dothraki) to hold Casterly Rock. She fights the white walkers with the rest of her forces and wins.

Cersei refuses to help fight the walkers, so Dany & Jon beat them alone, giving them hero status and the political capital to take King's Landing and rule Westeros, which would happen next season.

I think that makes sense. But maybe it's not surprising enough. Some alternatives would involve Euron flirting with the white walkers, given his history with the occult.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 26, 2017, 06:49:23 PM
Speculative Spoilers


It makes a lot of sense. It's not surprising, but they've always cared more about the execution–even if, like for the boat scene, it can seem rushed. The white walkers in the books are an headache for Martin, I think, and that's probably why he is taking so long to write the last books. He's so good at depicting that world like a realistic one, creating a proliferation of stories, backstories and characters that he lost track of the surnatural...The show can deal with the white walkers once and for all with a big climatic fight. But it shouldn't be how it all ends.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PM
From what I've heard, apparently there are far too many stories to properly tie up over the course of 2 books while coordinating the winter apocalypse.

The thing is that even if the WW are beaten, 'The Game' can never end but I think the WW need to be endgame sort of thing in the story. It all leads up to that point. I'm not sure if GRRM has the time to finish the books and then be able to describe the aftermath/fallout of the events with possible power vacuum' and revolts and so on.

It's hard to picture an actual human fighting for the WW, maybe Euron + Cersei (assuming Euron doesn't betray Cersei) thinking that they can let the WW take out the others so they can take over but then they get totally wrecked by the WW for underestimating them. I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I think the series will end with the world deep in a long winter, many of our favourites dead but the WW defeated- Westeros somewhat returning to the ages of myth. Or is that too trad fantasy and not GRRM enough?

EDIT:

Also, I wonder how they're going to handle the really important prophecies. I'm always a bit iffy about them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 26, 2017, 09:31:06 PM
Quote from: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PM'The Game' can never end

Do you think Daenerys will succeed in breaking the wheel? Seems likely that if she doesn't "end" the game, she will change it entirely.

I would be comfortable with the WW being defeated enough that they go dormant but remain an eternal threat. You know, periodically testing humanity's ability to come together to fight for their own existence. But from a storytelling perspective, I think the political change needs to be transformational.

Quote from: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PMIt's hard to picture an actual human fighting for the WW, maybe Euron + Cersei thinking that they can let the WW take out the others so they can take over but then they get totally wrecked by the WW for underestimating them.

Apparently in a preview chapter, Euron gets himself a set of Valyrian steel armor. So now there's a theory that he will at least seek out the white walkers (feeling safe in his armor). And there's a thread in the books about Euron seeking knowledge of magic and the occult in his travels, wanting to become a god and conquer the world. He'd certainly have a shot of doing that leading the white walkers, perhaps as one of them. I wouldn't mind seeing Ice-Euron.

Quote from: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PMI've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I actually think the world has been developed so carefully as a grounded reality in order to earn those supernatural payoffs. We've seen this periodically throughout the story. And in every season. Like the end of Season 4, when you suddenly have a child of the forest shooting magic fireballs. It works and is mindblowing because it was earned.

I'll also predict this: GoT goes full supernatural, unapologetically, showing you everything. I think it's pretty likely that GRRM would like to blow things wide open. (Lost did that too, and it was not to everyone's taste. Same thing could happen with ASOIAF/GoT fans.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 30, 2017, 06:55:25 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 26, 2017, 06:31:20 PM
Speculation spoilers

In previews, we've seen unsullied in Casterly Rock. It seems likely that Daenerys's forces will take it. That presents a practical dilemma, though.

Here's one solution:

- Dany takes Casterly Rock.
- White walkers breach the wall. (Shouldn't be too hard, with their frozen giants and whatnot.)
- Dany decides to just hold Casterly Rock for now. Instead of advancing to King's Landing, she turns north to fight the white walkers.
- Dany leaves someone behind (unsullied and/or Dothraki) to hold Casterly Rock. She fights the white walkers with the rest of her forces and wins.

Cersei refuses to help fight the walkers, so Dany & Jon beat them alone, giving them hero status and the political capital to take King's Landing and rule Westeros, which would happen next season.

I like your theory.

As I said before I hope Cersei has a big win before her inevitable defeat and Dorne doesn't count for me anymore, I mean a win made by herself (plan and execution). It looks thou she will have her revenge against Ellaria, oh what horrors await her...in all fairness she deserves it because as awful as Cersei and Tywin were it's not like they forced Oberyn to fight, he offered and lost fair and square and she went crazy and did all the shit we know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 30, 2017, 08:12:48 PM
It is definitely a more even match now.

I just took a look back at E2 to see exactly what Daenerys has lost. From what I can gather, in addition to Ellaria and Yara, she has lost all of Yara's forces and ships (what used to be Euron's "best ships"). That's not great, but it seems clear that Dany didn't lose more than that in that battle.

Seems doubtful Dorne will rally to Daenerys's aid without Ellaria. But maybe Varys can go there and convince them.

The Unsullied were to take Casterly Rock, so they are still with Daenerys. The Dothraki are a complete mystery; I assume they've stayed with Daenerys to protect her and perhaps to be the final force that she rides in with.

If Daenerys really has lost Randyll Tarly's army, that is a brutal loss. His forces were a significant part of the Tyrell army, and the best of them from what I understand.

I think the ballistas will actually be a significant threat just by virtue of their numbers. If Qyburn is producing enough (and I'm sure he is), they will probably be fired like a hail of arrows. They can't not hit a dragon at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 30, 2017, 09:38:38 PM
SPOILS S07E03

Quote from: Fernando on July 30, 2017, 06:55:25 PM
As I said before I hope Cersei has a big win before her inevitable defeat and Dorne doesn't count for me anymore, I mean a win made by herself (plan and execution). It looks thou she will have her revenge against Ellaria, oh what horrors await her...

Wishes granted. This is going way faster than I thought it would.

So Cersei got already her revenge against Ellaria and Oleana Tyrell which I completely forgot, btw, she gloated about Joffrey's murder and didn't rat out Little Finger who keeps getting lucky, although to be fair Cersei should know that he is on the Stark's "side", for now.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 30, 2017, 08:12:48 PM
The Unsullied were to take Casterly Rock, so they are still with Daenerys. The Dothraki are a complete mystery; I assume they've stayed with Daenerys to protect her and perhaps to be the final force that she rides in with.

If Daenerys really has lost Randyll Tarly's army, that is a brutal loss. His forces were a significant part of the Tyrell army, and the best of them from what I understand.

I think the ballistas will actually be a significant threat just by virtue of their numbers. If Qyburn is producing enough (and I'm sure he is), they will probably be fired like a hail of arrows. They can't not hit a dragon at some point.

Dany OTOH...lost a lot, Grey Worm was successful but will have nowhere to go and not enough provisions to hold the rock, and she lost the Tyrell army and their gold.

Right now she either rides her dragons and takes King's Landing or joins Jon to fight the WW.

The first, if she flies to King's Landing I agree that eventually she would lose a dragon or two and it is way too risky to do it by herself, she would need to split the dragons so she attacks by the sea and by land.

If she goes north she loses Dragon Stone but gains the support of the north, now that's an alliance.


WTF Bran, he proves his powers to Sansa by reminding her of her worst day? Couldn't he think of something else?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AM
Good lord this episode was on point. The writing was razor sharp. Everything worked.

I have never seen the Tyrion/Daenerys relationship rendered with such clarity. Jon & Daenerys, too — they actually had chemistry! Maybe he can sense his Targaryen blood tingling. (Will be surprised to learn she's his aunt, though.) That was so good, all three of them. These characters were fully themselves and their dynamic with each other rang true for every second. What a thing to pull off.

The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

Speculation

So Daenerys is finally the underdog. It seems like she has to try to rescue the Unsullied, right? Would be weird for her to go all this way with them and leave them to die. Funny thing: If both forces headed straight for King's Landing — Daenerys from Dragonstone and the Unsullied from Casterly Rock — they'd arrive around the same time. (Dany might be a little early, but they could work that out.)

Good thing Euron is on the opposite side of the continent, so he can't intercept Dany's landfall. Although... he did make that trip pretty fast all in this episode, so I'm not sure they're going to adhere to the geography this season. Maybe the wizardry he used to build those ships can also fold space-time.

Here's my point, though — given the pieces on the board right now, and which ones are in motion, I don't think Daenerys can delay her attack on King's Landing. And, crucially, Jon needs some time to mine that dragonglass. So we might be back to the conventional order of events — Cersei first, then the white walkers...

But probably playing out more like this:

– Daenerys launches an attack through Westeros toward King's Landing, flanking Jaime's forces with the Dothraki and dragons from the northeast, and Unsullied from the west.

– White walkers break through the wall and crash the party, perhaps saving Daenerys from losing a battle. This would be a good way to end the season.

– In the battle vs. the white walkers, Daenerys will be in a much better position (than the Lannisters) to take them on, thanks to Jon's knowledge (he will probably even insist that her guys keep some of the dragonglass weapons), plus dragonfire. Thus, many more Lannisters will be killed in that battle, leaving the throne that much easier to take. This seems like a fun way to reverse Dany's fortunes when things seem dire.

This would also align with my previous theory, that Daenerys will be largely responsible for defeating the white walkers. She and Jon will be considered the saviors of humanity and welcomed. And she's like okay Jon, I think you earned your title, King in the North it is.

I guess we have to consider the path of the white walkers, though. If they interrupt a Lannister/Daenerys battle like I'm presupposing, does that mean they will have subsumed Winterfell? Or maybe Sansa's foreshadowing means this: White walkers break through the wall, all the Northerners retreat to Winterfell, and Bran protects them all with some kind of spell... so they move south. Bran being at Wintefell does need to pay off, after all.

This also keeps Jon with Daenerys, so they can face the white walkers together. That seems like a crucial thing to achieve. Some foreshadowing this episode setting that up, too. It's really best from a storytelling perspective that Jon stays with Dany. That allows Sansa to continue to prove herself in Winterfell. It allows Littlefinger to remain a threat. And it allows Arya to miss Jon yet again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on July 31, 2017, 05:09:05 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AMThe Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Maybe I was wine drunk, but this was the one scene that felt off to me. Maybe it's because I'm so starved for family Stark reunions and I wanted Bran to warm up more, but his solemn reaction felt unearned. Also, the first thing he wants to talk about with his sister after not seeing her for years is about the night of her rape? Uhhhh what?

Again. I was buzzed so maybe I misread the scene.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 31, 2017, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AM
Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

This is a clear example of what I said about the white walkers not being a real villain, here Cersei depicts the horror that will live Ellaria and there's nothing she can do about it, even if help arrives her girl will be gone, and it's something that the WW or the Night King can't deliver (so far), do they even talk?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on July 31, 2017, 05:42:28 PM
Quote from: Fernando on July 31, 2017, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AM
Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

This is a clear example of what I said about the white walkers not being a real villain, here Cersei depicts the horror that will live Ellaria and there's nothing she can do about it, even if help arrives her girl will be gone, and it's something that the WW or the Night King can't deliver (so far), do they even talk?

That's another thing that's irking me - and this is coming from a newbie who hasn't read the books - the WW aren't that scary (yet). Outside of Jon ranting about them nonstop, I don't fear them as much as a Ramsey, nor are they as interesting or dimensional of villains as Cersei is (and god damn is she turning into a power-drunk monster).




Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 07:08:07 PM
Quote from: ©brad on July 31, 2017, 05:09:05 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AMThe Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Maybe I was wine drunk, but this was the one scene that felt off to me. Maybe it's because I'm so starved for family Stark reunions and I wanted Bran to warm up more, but his solemn reaction felt unearned. Also, the first thing he wants to talk about with his sister after not seeing her for years is about the night of her rape? Uhhhh what?

Again. I was buzzed so maybe I misread the scene.

Your reaction is reasonable and is the one I think we're supposed to have. That is where Bran is right now. He is other than human in a very literal sense. On top of that, his mind is scrambled with information, as he describes. No one is going to have any great social interactions with him. I think the scene is marvelous exactly for those effects.

When Arya arrives, that will be another weird reunion, because Arya is also other than human. Sansa will realize she's the most normal Stark left. Oh and I wonder what Bran is going to think of Arya...

Quote from: ©brad on July 31, 2017, 05:42:28 PMThat's another thing that's irking me - and this is coming from a newbie who hasn't read the books - the WW aren't that scary (yet). Outside of Jon ranting about them nonstop, I don't fear them as much as a Ramsey, nor are they as interesting or dimensional of villains as Cersei is (and god damn is she turning into a power-drunk monster).

Their nature as a cloudy, vague threat is exactly what makes it credible that most people in Westeros are not concerned. Yet. I guarantee there will be a wake up call. It will be all the more glorious given people's shock.

Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 01, 2017, 05:50:52 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 07:08:07 PMWere the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.

Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

Also a friend posted this on FB:

Stark reunion be like:

Jon: I died and came back alive.

Bran: I am the three eyed Raven.

Arya: I am a face changing serial killer.

Sansa: What the fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 01, 2017, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: ©brad on August 01, 2017, 05:50:52 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 07:08:07 PMWere the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.

Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

I'm not convinced that was GRR Martin's plan when he originally started conceiving the story, but as soon as it became apparent, he leaned into it hard. And in that context, the story HAS to culminate with the fight against the White Walkers, as the entire overarching theme is about confronting the existential threat that everyone's been too distracted by the pettiness of politics to pay attention to.

Also, I'm pretty sure in this metaphor, Jon Snow = Al Gore? Sexy, smoldering Al Gore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 01, 2017, 05:59:57 PM
I forgot Rickon was dead. I thought everyone had forgotten him. Again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 01, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: ©brad on August 01, 2017, 05:50:52 PMDamn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

Not to brag, but I was on it 4 years ago:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2013, 01:30:13 PMI wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.

Fun fact, that was the first time anyone ever had that theory.

Vox recently had a piece on this that went viral:

Game of Thrones is secretly all about climate change (https://www.vox.com/videos/2017/7/14/15969034/game-of-thrones-theory-climate-change)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 01, 2017, 09:36:43 PM
Favourite GOT thing I've seen this week:

"You're not a wartime consigliere, Tyrion."

I might have fired Tyrion back in Meereen.

Second best thing was someone describing Bran as Doctor Branhatten.

I've watched the Jon/Tyrion/Dany scenes a dozen times by now. So happy to see them.
Almost a bit funny seeing Jon in a place with nice weather.

Harington's come a long way. So has Sophie Turner actually. And I've liked Clarke this season too.

One thing's that annoying to see is people bitching about Dany. I find her annoying every now and then but she's earned the right to speak the way she does, she doesn't have the time or desire to be lovely and accommodating for Jon- though her bend the knee type stuff doesn't appear to be doing much for her breaking the wheel objective.

Weird to see LF and Varys be seemingly useless these days. Spymasters unable to do their job properly. LF's little monologue came off more nonsensical than anything.

I'm enjoying the show generally speaking but it isn't the same anymore. Everything is so fast-paced and streamlined and there are some annoyances and Cersei and Euron are unconvincingly powerful these days- to be a valid threat for plot purposes. The more I think about it, I'm enjoying the show because of the payoffs, approaching endgame and overall spectacle, not necessarily the writing itself. As the episodes go on, I imagine it will feel even more like a checklist, fair enough though, they have a lot of loose ends to tie up. Highgarden and Dorne effectively concluded in 4 episodes. If the books ever get finished, I'll read the rest of them, I'll be interested in seeing how GRRM ties up his plot.
If there are incoming inconsistencies and plot contrivances, I'll probably let them slide- assuming they aren't unforgivably stupid.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on July 26, 2017, 09:31:06 PM

Quote from: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PMI've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I actually think the world has been developed so carefully as a grounded reality in order to earn those supernatural payoffs. We've seen this periodically throughout the story. And in every season. Like the end of Season 4, when you suddenly have a child of the forest shooting magic fireballs. It works and is mindblowing because it was earned.

I messed up the quotes but whatever. I suppose what I was getting at with that post is that was less supernatural and more motivation based. We're supposed to get a reason for the WW's actions, there's supposed to be a good reason for them being all spooky and murdery yet we have zero evidence for that. I imagine Bran will figure all that out now. Right now, they are a mindless true evil (like in Trad fantasy). Works for the CC metaphor as climate change is merely a consequence with underlying agenda (no matter what some tinfoil theorists think).

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 01, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Not to brag, but I was on it 4 years ago:
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2013, 01:30:13 PMI wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.
Fun fact, that was the first time anyone ever had that theory.

I gotta be honest, I would be pretty surprised if that was the first time someone's had that theory.
I did a quick search and something like that was vaguely mentioned in a NYT review way back but perhaps that was a more general comment on the Westerosi climate. There was a fairly specific mention on reddit around the same time as you. I bet an insightful/prescient book fan probably had the thought back in the 90s.
Unless you were joking and I got whooshed real bad.

I can be pretty anti-parable/anti-didacticism at times (because the execution is often preachy/bad) but this is the sort of situation where I support this kind of thing.

EDIT:

Here's a really nice one from 2012.
https://lostandinventedecologies.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/guest-blogger-daniel-meyers-song-of-ice.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 02, 2017, 12:17:57 AM
I was definitely trying to be funny there. Hopefully people don't think I'm that big of a jerk that I would begin a self-aggrandizing statement with "fun fact..."

Agree about Dany. Her expectation was that Jon was coming to bend the knee. He did not warn her about any dragonglass request or any desire to keep the North. Daenerys was caught off-guard by him. If he has something of real consequence to offer her in the war, I'm sure she'd be happy to work out a sovereign partnership, as she was with the Iron Islands. Currently, she's simply giving him dragonglass (and labor!) and getting nothing in return. Further in Dany's defense, she was intrigued by the knife-in-the-heart thing, and she really started warming up to him by the end of the episode.

I heard this today and agree with it: Tyrion is great at diplomacy but horrible at war tactics. Maybe Davos (and Jorah?) can offer better advice.

To your complaints... D&D signed on to produce an adaptation, not fan fiction based on a GRRM outline, so all things considered I think it's going quite well. I am so in on the show that nothing has really broken the spell since the beginning of last season.

I have to be careful what I read and listen to right now, because GoT is in the prime nitpicking zone as it begins to wrap up. People will continue to get very upset when each thing is not fully explained. Boatbuilding aside (that really was impossible), I think this is a ridiculous distraction. Can the viewer not use his or her imagination to fill in the blanks? Do fans really want the show to spend its valuable time shoving exposition in their face? The faster the plot unfolds, the more things there are to explain... and I don't think people realize they don't actually want that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 06, 2017, 08:20:49 PM
HOLY SHIT  :bravo:

My blood is pumping. I need to see all of that that again right away...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 06, 2017, 09:34:01 PM
That was intense. :shock:

I loved that Arya scene. In a real fight - it would be over in seconds!

Oh, and that last scene... omg, I had NO IDEA what would happen. All of the unpredictable shit in past episodes make you really sit on the edge of the seat and feel like anything could happen in these kind of scenes. That's what make this show so much more intense than anything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 06, 2017, 09:59:48 PM
Yes, what a wonderful episode.


SPOILS S07E04

The Stark Girls reunion was great, I'm glad Arya lowered her faceless guard and embraced Sansa.

Bran keeps his cold demeanor (I feel for poor Meera), it kind of makes sense the way he is now, just one thing again, couldn't he mentioned that LF betrayed his father? Maybe he still has an important part to play in all this, Bran saying to LF chaos is ladder was really something, Baelish has to know now he can't fuck with them, will see.

Then it came Daenerys vs the Lannisters, that was tense I feared for pretty much everyone except Dany, at some point I thought Jaime was done but he has to be alive right? If so, he better be captured because there's no where to go. Looks like Drogon will make it but he took a big hit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 07, 2017, 01:09:55 AM
That was, without a doubt, my favorite "glorious battle scene" that the show has given us so far. How long have I been talking about dragons scorching battlefields? Now I finally got to see it. When Draenerys said "dracarys," I definitely might have screamed "yes!"

GoT managed to turn me into a bloodthirsty monster for a good while. I actually enjoyed seeing all those Lannister men cooked alive. They and Jaime are fighting for Cersei, after all. I genuinely wanted to see Jaime's face blasted off by fire just then. And Bronn... he can die immediately. Always a fun character, but he has no honor. Don't need to root for him. It blows my mind that we actually got to see Bronn face off against a Dothraki, who fought just as dirty as he does.

Then, Tyrion on the hill. Boom. Instant perspective. That hit me like a truck. I felt like the three-eyed raven for a second while all of Tyrion's feelings flashed before my eyes.

I don't think it can be overstated how masterful that whole setpiece was. The editing alone... watching that horizon, waiting for the Dothraki to appear... Jesus. They made the battle very personal, too. Consider all the characters at play: Dany, Tyrion, Jaime, Bronn, and even Dickon.

Rest of the ep was also pretty great. Going to say Winterfell was the highlight. The cascade of payoffs just continues — Brann saying "chaos is a ladder" was so exciting. And Arya's sparring scene — so much is happening within Sansa's reactions there, it's insane.

Jon and Dany had even more chemistry this week! They work well together. And by the way, the part where she demanded yet again that he bend the knee seemed like very clear foreshadowing that she would eventually drop that demand. That happened mere seconds before she was given the bad news about her allies having evaporated. Plus, as I keep saying, if she gave the Greyjoys sovereignty, why not the Starks?

Overall, the quality of the show is so high right now, especially in the writing. The only things I would even venture to criticize are a few acting moments here and there, but I usually just ignore that and fault the director anyway.

Okay, let's talk military tactics for a moment. Both sides learned some very important things. The Lannisters learned that the ballistas are their greatest strength. Drogon learned he needs to duck and weave — don't fly straight at the thing, dummy. Note that it was a very lucky shoulder shot, by the way. Dragons' scales become hard as armor when they get old enough, so that may be hard to duplicate. Can some kind of armor be fashioned to shore up their weak spots?

Either way, I think Dany clearly has the advantage. She can fly in close to the ground (that was smart) and make quick work of everyone while not being an exposed target in the sky. Obvious next step: Jon and Tyrion, since they are both Targaryens (come at me), need to get up on them other two dragons and join her. Book lore says that dragons do in fact need to be ridden; they can't just be sent into battle. I wonder if deploying all three dragons would provide too many targets for ballistas, or if they can properly support each other (cause like, imagine if Drogon had a buddy there). I'd say that if they're being ridden adeptly, it could work.

That's the air battle. On land, Daenerys appears to have both the numbers and the power. It's true Jaime made a point of saying they were spread thin there, but if the Unsullied can reconnect with Dany, those combined forces would seem to have a good chance.

Anyway, best ep since the end of last season. I'm so happy they're nailing this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 07, 2017, 04:22:47 PM
Yeah, that battle more than made up for the tame ones we got earlier this season.

So, is it too obvious to predict that Bronn was the one that saved Jaime and that he'll die (he had a brief moment of character redemption when he chose to fight instead of grab his gold so he's good to go), but Jaime will live and be captured and then we get some juicy scenes between him and Tyrian?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 07, 2017, 04:58:07 PM
I agree, Jaime being captured would seem to be the most narratively satisfying path. There's so much potential there that they wouldn't even have time for all of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 08, 2017, 09:26:16 AM



They're good.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2017, 01:34:25 PM
It's been interesting reading and hearing everyone's reactions to this episode. People seem to love the loot train battle scene because they don't know who to root for. That's clearly what was intended, too. But I sincerely had a very different but perhaps equally powerful reaction — burn them all. In the moment, I was ready for everyone on that battlefield to die in fire: Jaime, Bronn, Dickon, and anyone else supporting Cersei. I guess I've picked a side.

I think I was slightly wrong about Bronn, though — they clearly attempted a redemption arc within this episode, where he leaves the gold behind and goes to save Jaime, etc. I suppose I chose to remain skeptical that he actually has honor now.

I've been hearing a lot of speculation about a Jon and Dany marriage alliance. They clearly have chemistry and mutual admiration, right? Shared values, like I've been saying. Plus, aunt/nephew is barely even incest for Targaryens. It's almost not incest enough.

Bending the knee is also something one might do while proposing marriage. Would the Northerners be up for a such an alliance? That would give the North more power, right, since Jon would have influence over all seven kingdoms? Seems like a win/win/win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 09, 2017, 06:52:37 PM
Yeah how everyone isn't fully on team Dany right now I have no idea. Rooting for the Lannisters at this point is like rooting for Trump, only Cersei is way smarter than Trump.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2017, 01:34:25 PMIt's almost not incest enough.

:yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 09, 2017, 07:55:10 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2017, 01:34:25 PM
I think I was slightly wrong about Bronn, though — they clearly attempted a redemption arc within this episode, where he leaves the gold behind and goes to save Jaime, etc. I suppose I chose to remain skeptical that he actually has honor now.

The thing I always loved about Bronn is that he's always been kind of above "honor" in that sense. He's a guy with a job, and he's going to punch his time card in and out every day and expect his paycheck at the end of the week. He's basically Jim from The Office, with the added benefit of being awesome at his job. I never saw him as in need of redemption, because he's so indisputably and unapologetically who he is. If he's experiencing an arc at this point, it's that he's discovering the added responsibilities that come with being promoted to upper management.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 10, 2017, 05:26:12 AM
He's an honest, brutal pragmatist, and that's his whole thing but I reckon there's a fair bit of humanity to him. He stopped for a moment before killing Ser Vardis but Lysa was too stupid to stop the fight. He was concerned for Tyrion when he had to turn down his champion request. There's also a deleted scene where he kinda comforts Shae.
This Jaime saving thing might be the whole Jaime can't pay his debts thing if he is dead thing but I think he's grown attached to both Lannisters and that's probably his biggest mistake as a (former) sellsword and that might be just what gets him killed.
I'm actually kinda worried Dany will have him killed for shooting Drogon.

The Jon/Dany thing has been kinda obvious this season. There's that part where she allows Jon to mine dragonglass and then Jon walks away and she gives him that brief glance and I was like "Ohhh, it's really gonna happen".
I was kinda hoping Jon would be like this lone wolf dude whose mind is set only on the WW but I'm actually happy to see this happen. They're related and all, but there's a precedent and they've existed apart from each other for almost their entire lives. At their core, they want to do the right thing. Makes sense as far as story goes also it's better than the original Jon, Arya and Tyrion love triangle GRRM planned years ago (really, this was a thing).

EDIT:

Promo images for next EP:
https://imgur.com/a/c610q
Look at that look in number 5.
I very much look forward to the scene from image 8. I miss those scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 13, 2017, 11:42:19 PM
THAT WAS SO GOOD.

I think this edges out last week as the best of the season so far. Every single scene was like wow I can't believe they're giving this to me. The character payoffs are off the charts now — this was exciting from top to bottom with no battle scenes.

I never imagined that seeing Jon pet a dragon would make me cry, but it sure did. And that was immediately followed by Jorah's return — too much!

That was the most convincing dragon shot we've seen so far, right? I was stunned. Then, the next scene with the ravens flying over the wall... good lord, that was one of the most beautiful images Game of Thrones has ever given us. The budget for this season must be ridiculous.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on November 23, 2015, 01:27:02 AMWe don't even deserve this show.

Daenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.

I had been hoping that the white walkers would be fought without Cersei's help, making her a coward, and giving Daenerys infinite politcal capital for having saved the realm. That appears to be off the table... maybe.

One nitpick — it seems just a little unlikely that Jaime and Bronn could have escaped. I would have bought it more had Bronn pulled a drowned Jaime out of the river and revived him. It's possible Daenerys and Drogo had to immediately retreat just then. We didn't get to see it.

Seeing Randall and Dickon being burned alive blew my mind. Wait, are they actually doing this? Yep. I kind of wanted Drogo to eat them, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 14, 2017, 04:14:47 AM
Fun, fan-servicey episode. Next week is going to be absolutely bonkers.

I have to say the pacing was bizarre this episode. Threw me off. A lot of important stuff happened in this episode. Some of it weird. It felt like half a season in an episode.
I'm still not exactly feeling the writing but I'm enjoying the ride.

Yeah, there's no way Jaime and Bronn should have been able to get out of that alive.

I was sad to see Dickon die. He seemed like a good lad. Lord Tarly's reasoning was pretty lame- he was a Targ loyalist during the rebellion. Dany was born in Westeros and her father was his king. Which seems like a pretty good link to the country. He struggled for a scene to betray Olenna and then had the choice to live under a relatively fair Targ but decided against it. Maybe he just doesn't like them brown Dothrakis stealing dem soldier jobs. Anyway, they could have been useful assets.

I think Gilly just mentioned Jon has the best claim for the throne. Also, considering the secret marriage happened in Dorne, I wonder if Elia Martell was in on it. Otherwise Rhaegar was one cold-ass dude. It would be cool and a little dark if it was revealed if he actually was all calculating and prophecy-obsessed and not actually in love with Lyanna and just saw her as a tool.

I'm happy to see Jorah again, all useful and non-gross.

Beyond the wall dream team is awesome. On a very stupid little mission but it's awesome.
Though I'm worried because they are all amazing characters and I can't picture all of them surviving.

Leave Sansa alone, you big meanie. Arya was kinda annoying in that scene.

God, Littlefinger is a fucking creep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 06:41:51 AM
What's good has been talked about, so I'll just say:

—the show is trying to sell Littlefinger as some kind of genius ahead of everybody but the show isn't clever enough to have him do something really clever, it's the most robotic aspect of the show, let him die, please...(They'll probably gonna kill him at the end of the season, Dorne-like way, because they have nothing for him.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 14, 2017, 07:18:17 AM
The dude was a genius schemer way ahead of everyone when they had the books to draw on but maybe the 'broad strokes' provided to the showrunners didn't include LF's later plans. Varys has lost his power in a way too. There's something great in the idea that all his schemes lead him to fizzle out in The North but it hasn't been that interesting to watch this season. I did really enjoy watching him skulking in the corner but it's hard to believe that ninja Arya got out-stealthed by this dude.
I suppose 'the game' becomes more irrelevant as the winter apocalypse approaches and that's why LF can't contribute much.

It's really hard to imagine how the next season will even be structured and paced.

I'm also struggling to see what they plan to do with Euron. I hope it's something really surprising. I want him to be relevant to the final WW plotline somehow and not just some edgy mini-boss detour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 14, 2017, 08:40:59 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 13, 2017, 11:42:19 PMDaenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.

I was worried their relationship would feel forced but it's totally believable to me. The little glances they have given each other through the episodes - it has been one of my favorite things this season. They are also the two hottest characters so of course they would be attracted to each other!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 12:20:52 PM
Yup. And that exchange when he leaves:

Jon: If I don't return, at least you won't have to deal with the King in the North anymore.
Dany: I've grown used to him... *wink*

It's the equivalent of passing a note in class that says "I like you." This could be the first time Daenerys is falling in love organically. It seems to really help that Jon is her equal and carries himself as such.

Also, you know how I've been harping on their shared values? Dany, after her arrival, said to Jon: "we both want to help people." And clearly her desire in that conversation was convincing Jon that, sure, her methods seem a little violent, but so was Battle of the Bastards — they're both on the same page and want the same thing.

Anyway:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 13, 2017, 11:42:19 PMDaenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 14, 2017, 02:24:05 PM
Daenerys kind of lost me this episode, or maybe she's always been ruthless and we're just seeing it more now. Her whole "I'm fighting for the poor people, but if you don't join me I'll kill you" schtick its pretty evil. She couldn't have captured those guys who refused to bend the knee, or give them a more painless death?

Pacing is odd, but there is generally no fat in these episodes so it's easy to let slide. I agree some of the writing is great, other times it's very exposition heavy and clunky.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 02:41:24 PM
I never liked her. She's a spoiled child with delusion of grandeur in love with the idea of what she represents. Still better than Cersei, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: ©brad on August 14, 2017, 02:24:05 PM
Daenerys kind of lost me this episode, or maybe she's always been ruthless and we're just seeing it more now. Her whole "I'm fighting for the poor people, but if you don't join me I'll kill you" schtick its pretty evil. She couldn't have captured those guys who refused to bend the knee, or give them a more painless death?

I mean, this is the same Daenerys that crucified the masters along the road to Meereen. She's softened up. Don't forget her Dothraki training and her family history of "fire and blood" (their house words). The point of Daenerys is that she is fierce and violent (which you have to be to conquer in that world) but also has egalitarian ideals. I feel like we need to meet this story halfway with a little cultural relativism, which should be easier to accept in this fiction. (And for me, it really is.)

She invited all the remaining Lannister soldiers (including the commander!) to join her and offered her trust in exchange. But Randyll was like "nope, kill me" and Dickon was like "me too!" In the scene that followed, Dany took no particular joy in burning them. It was an explicit parallel to Ned carrying out the execution in the beginning of season 1. Dany even formally sentenced them in the same way: "I, Daenerys of house Targaryen, first of my name, breaker of chains and mother of dragons, sentence you to die."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on August 14, 2017, 03:14:49 PM
Quote from: ©brad on August 14, 2017, 02:24:05 PM
Daenerys kind of lost me this episode, or maybe she's always been ruthless and we're just seeing it more now.

And although it was an ultimatum, the decision was their choice; more freedom than Dany has seen from most rulers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 03:30:08 PM
Also, as Lottery said, Randyll Tarly was a Targaryen loyalist and actually fought against Robert to keep the Targaryens in power. Wouldn't be a stretch for him to join Daenerys, but he chose suicide. Strange for him to use "foreign invaders" as a pejorative when that's what the Targaryens were. Maybe he really was hung up on the Dothraki. Or perhaps this would have been one loyalty switch too many, and he wanted to go down in the history books as a principled hero.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 14, 2017, 04:43:54 PM
First the things that bothered me.

The biggest. Jaime and Bronn getting out of there so easy, I mean it should be logical that Dany would send for them, she literally saw them jump in the water, there's no way that went unnoticed.

Sansa and Arya's conflict of nothing. I really hope they don't prolong this idiotic rivalry which could be cleared up with a conversation that lasts less than 5 seconds: "why did you write that letter?!" "I didn't! Cersei did." And on top of this they have Bran who sees everything. AND, Arya has many faces, she shouldn't need to sneak in to spy on LF.


Now the good stuff.

That scene of Jon and the dragon was something else, the emotions of both him and Dany were great, and Drogon was a like a cute kitten that smells you and knows you're his friend. I wonder if Dany knows Tyrion set free the other two dragons...she has to right?

Literate Gilly FTW. She's about to mention Jon Snow's parents and Sam suddenly had it and has to leave immediately? (not that he knows that of course). OK, but the interesting part here is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married for a brief time, therefore Jon is NOT a bastard.

Oh and Cersei is pregnant! That should be interesting, maybe more so in her than any other character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: Fernando on August 14, 2017, 04:43:54 PMOh and Cersei is pregnant! That should be interesting, maybe more so in her than any other character.

Yeah. Does anyone still think Jaime is going to kill her? Seems even less likely given the new circumstances. Arya-as-Jaime is looking pretty good right now. Think of how heartbreaking and confusing that would be for Cersei, too. It would also be thematically interesting that Arya is killing an unborn child to avenge the Red Wedding, which also killed an unborn child.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 05:37:10 PM
No. I read the pregnancy as "Jaime will kill Cersei AND his unborn child". Which will be a sad way to create a G.R.R moment. But maybe I'm wrong; I still can't imagine Jaime not killing his sister. Even if Cersei being okay with whatever is happening because it is easier for the plot was weird...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 05:45:01 PM
Has Jaime even started on the path to believing Cersei needs to be killed? As much as we'd like to believe that, I don't see evidence for it. He's a little scared of her, but he clearly still loves her more than life itself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 05:52:13 PM
When she'll decide to sacrifice everybody, even herself, in order not to be killed by Dany, he'll struggle...Now? Will he be blinded by his love? He still thinks Cersei isn't crazy. She'll do something even more crazy than what she already did. To me, that's the journey of Jaime.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 14, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
I'm not convinced Cersei isn't lying about the baby. She feels Jaime slipping out of her fingers, and she knows the one trump card she can still pull out of her deck. And Jaime finding out about this lie could be a pretty powerful final straw to snap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 14, 2017, 09:14:44 PM
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 14, 2017, 10:22:01 PM
Cersei's already had 3 gold-haired kids. If the witch's prophecy right, it's either a lie or baby no. 4 ain't gonna make it. Jaime killing her would be a cool way to ensure that both prophecies will be fulfilled, she'll only ever have 3 kids and the whole younger brother valonqar business.

As far as Dany goes,  she's been pretty reasonable in terms of warfare. Burning people alive is uncool but Cersei's (and Tyrion) guilty of that too and she did it to innocents. Dany has given survivors a choice. She has shown a fair bit of restraint considering her potential. Realistically, she could have easily won the war already in a few months then focused on the WW but I guess the super duper dream team kidnapping a zombie to convince Cersei is more important.
In any case, she's closer to Aegon than the Mad King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on August 14, 2017, 10:49:21 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 12:20:52 PM

Anyway:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 13, 2017, 11:42:19 PMDaenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.

"Eastwatch4.jpg" is such a great moment/expression. Kudos to Emilia Clarke ~
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 11:37:26 PM
Totally. This is one of her best-acted episodes for sure. Some actors she seems to work well with; Kit is one of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 15, 2017, 02:52:22 PM
Quote from: polkablues on August 14, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
I'm not convinced Cersei isn't lying about the baby. She feels Jaime slipping out of her fingers, and she knows the one trump card she can still pull out of her deck. And Jaime finding out about this lie could be a pretty powerful final straw to snap.

That would be fun, but I do think Cersei is pregnant for real. It appears that's what Qyburn was talking to her about. Maybe that was part of a show, but probably not.

This would give her some additional character motivation. Now that her house has a potential future, she might behave less recklessly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 15, 2017, 02:53:57 PM
Apparently a lot of people did not like this episode. Some are even worried about the direction the show is going. And I'm getting annoyed with the nature of the criticism. Why didn't they explain this? Why don't they have time for this thing? Why am I not getting this thing that I want? Why haven't they mentioned the sword? So much whining about every little detail. Just let it happen and see what they have in store for us.

A lot of the criticism is about the insanity of what's being set up. But I'm fine with crazy things happening. I think people have forgotten that this has been promised all along. Just as Lost teased us about the glowing energy at the heart of the island, Game of Thrones has teased us about those white walkers from the very first episode. A promise was made that things are going to get nuts. Not entirely sure that people will be equipped to handle it.

I'm fine with the final season doing bonkers things that the show hasn't done before. Not only do I tolerate that, I love it. (See Lost and Battlestar Galactica.)

I can't be bothered to worry about logistics right now. This does not strike me as the time to be obsessed about dumb little things. As far as I'm concerned, Game of Thrones can do what it wants, as long as the show doesn't violate the spirit of its narrative or the nature of its characters.

That's why I didn't like the finale of Breaking Bad, but I loved the finale of Lost, and its final season, with the core of my being. It felt like its very soul was unfolding and being revealed to us. Same with Battlestar Galactica, essentially. That last season was clearly what the show always wanted to be and was true to its characters along the way.

Game of Thrones is doing something similar. This split final season is kind of a different show — it's an intense race to the finish that is just not interested in explaining everything. And yet its characterization has been pitch perfect. Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Olenna, Bronn, Cersei — they continue to be emphatically themselves, with dialogue as sharp as ever. Jaime especially. What we want him to be and what he actually is are two different things. Agonizingly, we still see his potential — note his joke last week about confessing his sins to the high septon.

I will acknowledge issues when I see them. For example, I share the concern about the Sansa/Arya storyline. I desperately hope Arya sees through Littlefinger's plot (eventually if not very soon) and uses that to pivot against him. Maybe that's where Sansa's quotation comes in: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on August 15, 2017, 05:23:10 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 15, 2017, 02:53:57 PM

That's why I didn't like the finale of Breaking Bad, but I loved the finale of Lost, and its final season, with the core of my being. It felt like its very soul was unfolding and being revealed to us. Same with Battlestar Galactica, essentially. That last season was clearly what the show always wanted to be and was true to its characters along the way.

Game of Thrones is doing something similar. This split final season is kind of a different show — it's an intense race to the finish that is just not interested in explaining everything.

This is well illustrated by Gilly and Sam's getaway from the Maesters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 16, 2017, 10:41:34 AM
How do you guys feel about these leaks? I mean episode 6 is right there for us to watch a whole 5 days early... but there's something about watching the episodes before they officially come out that doesn't feel right  :shock:

And by the way HBO used to be the kings of secrecy and security, but lately it's gotten bad. It's not even hacks, it's just sloppiness...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
Not thrilled and not watching it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 16, 2017, 01:17:58 PM
Quote from: Kal on August 16, 2017, 10:41:34 AM
How do you guys feel about these leaks? I mean episode 6 is right there for us to watch a whole 5 days early... but there's something about watching the episodes before they officially come out that doesn't feel right  :shock:

And by the way HBO used to be the kings of secrecy and security, but lately it's gotten bad. It's not even hacks, it's just sloppiness...

I have to wait longer for the last episode, but whatever, I'm watching it... it's in pretty good quality this time too.

is it allowed to discuss the leaked episode here?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 16, 2017, 01:20:24 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
Not thrilled and not watching it.

Same here, IF someone does, please don't post until it airs...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 16, 2017, 01:20:38 PM
I don't care. I download them anyway so I don't have that moment in front of my TV and time flies so fast that I won't have to really wait before the finale is upon us. And this one is in HD. I already watched it.

I'd rather wait before JB watches it before writing about it here, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2017, 01:43:58 PM
Yeah, please don't say anything here until Sunday night.

My main reason for not watching it is I want to be in the same place in the conversation cycle. And it would only make the wait for the finale that much longer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 16, 2017, 02:00:32 PM
So this might be the only time I will have something worthy to say about it here.

I'll have 5 days to think about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 16, 2017, 03:27:00 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2017, 01:43:58 PMMy main reason for not watching it is I want to be in the same place in the conversation cycle.

Exactly. GoT is one of the last of its kind, which is making each final episode even more special to me. As most of our content will now be released and binged all at once on streaming networks, it's nice to have one final show to freak out about week by week. I guess Breaking Bad was the last show big enough to command the same weekly audience and subsequent social media freakout.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 16, 2017, 03:56:55 PM
But won't most people download the leaked version and watch it anyway?

I watched it and now I don't have to worry about spoilers. I'd recommend people to watch it because it won't be fun to be spoiled. I can't believe how these episodes is getting leaked. I don't remember other big shows getting leaked it the same extent that GoT has.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 16, 2017, 04:21:05 PM
I don't know who they let upload the episodes on streaming websites but they often make mistakes. It happened twice with Twin Peaks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 18, 2017, 08:59:31 PM
Well, I'm on a 12 hour flight and couldn't resist. I watched it. Oh boy...

I'm losing my shit. If anyone wants to discuss send me a message. I can't believe there is only one episode left until next year.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 18, 2017, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: Kal on August 18, 2017, 08:59:31 PM
Well, I'm on a 12 hour flight and couldn't resist. I watched it. Oh boy...

I'm losing my shit. If anyone wants to discuss send me a message. I can't believe there is only one episode left until next year.

you are 182:th. congratz.

yeah, I wish we all had seen it so we could talk about it.

edit: no i'm sorry, 187 is the number... but that's also a good number so congratz

edit 2: i'm 182th actually, so congratz to me
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on August 19, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
I like all this member number talk (seriously). But can we keep the leaked episode talk down to a minimum? I'm one of those assholes who considers stuff like it being an episode worth losing your shit over, and even being an episode you wouldn't want spoiled...to be a spoiler. Excited for Sunday!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 19, 2017, 09:21:37 AM
Quote from: Tictacbk on August 19, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
I like all this member number talk (seriously). But can we keep the leaked episode talk down to a minimum? I'm one of those assholes who considers stuff like it being an episode worth losing your shit over, and even being an episode you wouldn't want spoiled...to be a spoiler. Excited for Sunday!

I am also one of those assholes. Please don't discuss leaks in any way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 19, 2017, 10:53:37 AM
Those of us waiting until Sunday should probably just stay out of this thread altogether until then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 19, 2017, 04:41:53 PM
Alright everyone relax. If every episode didn't have something important at this point I don't know why anyone would be watching...

We'll discuss tomorrow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 20, 2017, 08:12:36 AM
An article written last year.

"The creators of Game of Thrones also struggle with these multiple contexts, and their struggles are often direct causes of the story's controversies. For the author, George R.R. Martin, the issue is this: how do you take a series whose momentum is based on sabotaging how stories are supposed to work...and then make the story work? His inability to answer this successfully is, in my opinion, the most likely cause of his later novels taking three times longer to come out than his earlier ones. There isn't an answer, I suspect, and diminishing returns are inevitable.
For the television series, it's more complicated. The crucial question is this: How do you take a story that's written as a deliberate repudiation of 1990s fantasy norms and make it work, twenty years later, with an audience that didn't necessarily grow up with Terry Brooks and Robert Jordan novels? The story is generally strong enough that it's managed to survive and thrive; the failures of the Starks are not just reversals of fantasy convention but overall storytelling convention. But the longer the series goes, the less able it is to draw upon such clear subversions."

https://medium.com/@RowanKaiser/in-conclusion-game-of-thrones-is-a-franchise-of-contrasts-3bc9bd8f4f40
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 20, 2017, 10:03:23 PM
A lot of folks aren't happy with this episode it seems. At this point, I can definitely understand the concerns regarding writing quality but it still remains a largely enjoyable show.

Winterfell has been awful for the second half of the season, there better be an awesome payoff for all of this foolishness (I'm hoping that in giving Sansa the knife, Arya in her own weird way shown her trust of Sansa). I reckon Arya's story peaked in S4 while Sansa's S6 onwards has been enjoyable to watch. Unfortunate to see Sansa in such a lame storyline.

Anyway, the main component of the episode. So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes. I'm, of course, very iffy on marathon Gendry, supersonic Ravens, nick-of-time Dany. Pacing has been a matter of discussion this season and I thought this episode would avoid those issues but I guess not. It's sad that Thoros died- and I suppose his death was used to demonstrate the passing of time (due to exposure). Logically, it may have worked but it doesn't feel right (like last ep's KL trip).  Above all, I'm more annoyed by the waste of Benjen. You have Dany arriving seconds before imminent doom and then Benjen. It was a disappointing sacrifice. I'm just going to pretend that Bran warged the ravens to fly faster and also summoned Benjen to help Jon.

Also, it appears the conclusion of the war might just be kill Night King and blam, all the zombies die. I guess he's some sort of Super-Warg. So in a way, he's not the arch-nemesis of Jon, but he's the arch-nemesis of Bran (like the 3ER before him).
It would be cool to think that NK doesn't even see Jon as a threat, he does things slowly because he has all the time in the world, any act of war against him results in only more troops for him. He probably thinks victory is a given.
I'm still curious about WW motivations though.

Anyway, I have to say, for all its faults, a lot of it is forgiven because of that last scene with Dany and Jon. Some may call it cheesy and him calling her Dany was probably a bit odd but I'm a real sucker for those sort of scenes. I like it story-wise as she's demonstrated her worth to Jon so he believes bending the knee is the right thing to do and Jon finally joining her really touched something deep in her because she's come to admire and respect this selfless (silly stubborn hero) dude. And they're obviously in love.

- Remarkably cinematic episode
- War table shot cutting to beyond the wall was great
- Some great action
- I love all the characters in the BtW team, happy most of them survived (RIP Red Priest)
- Beric was a standout this episode
- More Jorah is always welcome, happy to see him get a long with Jon
- I was so scared that Tormund was going to die when he was getting dragged by the wights
- Dragon Wight is way hardcore
- I wonder what would have happened if Drogon turned around and sprayed NK, he's probably dracarysproof
- I miss Theon
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 20, 2017, 10:25:25 PM
Quote from: Lottery on August 20, 2017, 10:03:23 PM
So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes.

Yes, and it's hard to not enjoy them whatever we think of the story. The scenes were impressive. It wasn't as good as Hardhome because, outside of the dragons, you realize it is mostly people waiting and fighting inside of a circle an army that should kill them in a few seconds but everything in that show is done the best way it could be done. And it also had the scene with the zombie bears: I loved that one, it scared the shit out of me.

The storyline in Winterfell is very painful to watch but, if I understood correctly, it's all good between Sansa and Arya now? Good, I guess...
Also: the same way that Littlefinger is supposed to be some kind of great strategist while doing nothing of substance, Bran having superpowers and not doing much with them is becoming a big flaw...He's also a sociopath who doesn't care about anything so it can make some kind of sense...But I'd rather watch Bran using his powers (the scene with the ravens was beautiful, like JB said) than watching Maisie Williams struggling to play bad material the best way she can...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PM
[Posting this without reading any replies or reviews yet. Also, it got long, so I included subheads.]


Welp this is going to be a divisive one for sure. I pretty much loved it by the end, though. Why? Because we've fully crossed over into bonkers fantasy, that's not going to stop, and I'm prepared.

I'll get some quibbles out of the way first. Feel free to rebut any of them, because I did love this episode...

– Build-up to the blue eye was at least 5 seconds too long. We all knew what was going to happen.
– Benjen had time, right? Maybe he needed to serve as a distraction, but that wasn't communicated well.
– Tyrion's fireside dialogue was not good. He sounded like an idiot. Dany's responses were great though, so maybe a wash.


Pre-emptive fan-splaining

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

[Just emailed that ^ in as podcast feedback, complete with a clickbait subject line. If it makes it in, I can die happy.]

The real dumb one here is Arya. That's going to break a lot of people's hearts — fans who've been rooting for her from the beginning. Well guess what, this is what Arya has become. It's quite dark. A couple more crucial things to note here. Arya made much of her lie detector test. Sansa appears to have passed it. Inevitable conclusion: Arya performs this test on Littlefinger and he fails.

Just based on the responses to this season, I know people are going to complain hardcore about that raven. I thought they conveyed clearly that significant time had passed — Thoros had completely frozen, and the rest of them were not far behind. Also someone on Reddit did the math (https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6u75t3/lets_do_the_math_on_how_long_it_would_take_a/), and it seems to check out, although it is very close:

QuoteIn conclusion: It seems to me that the just over 4 day travel time required for Dany to to receive the Raven and fly to Eastwatch, seems to line up accurately with the amount of time it would take ice to grow enough to support an army of undead to fight on top of it in those conditions.

This was a truly frightening episode, wasn't it? The journey beyond the wall, Dany and Tyrion fighting, and ice-cold Arya. I don't think I have been more afraid during an episode from the beginning to the end. I really wonder if that deep unease — feeling lost, like you don't really know this world, like anything could happen — is going to color people's assessment of this episode. But I welcome all of that. It really was time for the show to punish us again.


A contrarian opinion that you will find convincing

Tyrion and Jon's plan turned out to be just as dumb as expected. But, four mitigating points:

(1) They have both proven themselves to be horrible strategists.

(2) People do dumb things. I don't mind seeing that in GoT. It happens a lot. This is certainly not competence porn. Mistakes in this show quite often lead to difficulty — and there were very real consequences here.

(3) The plan is one of those "so crazy it just might work" scenarios. I am fine with that, because this episode feels very true in a way to the spirit of GoT — even an improbable and heroic win creates new challenges. The feel of the story right now might even presage the "bittersweet" ending that Martin envisions.

(4) Jon expressing regret (finally confessing his stupidity?) went a long way for me. And then of course we get to the real point of this venture, which was showing Daenerys. "You don't really know until you see," she said. Cersei is just a bonus. Dany is going to win this thing. Now it's personal.


If this boat's a-rockin'...

The final 18 minutes, starting with Dany's arrival, was 100% gold. Probably one of my favorite stretches in the show's history. And the scene between Jon and Dany — wow, they nailed that so hard. Speaking of which, Dany looked like she was about to jump him right then and there, were it not for him being almost dead.

When Jon said "how about my queen" my head literally exploded. I don't have a head anymore. For some reason that hit me like a ton of bricks — like, wait, did I fantasize that line, or did it actually just happen? Beautiful performances there. Now these two have really been through some shit together, as they say. It's remarkable how this is one of the most vividly realized relationships ever done on the show, and it was fully accomplished in the space of 4 episodes, even admist everything else that's been happening.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 21, 2017, 09:26:25 AM
"So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes."

The scene with the bears was terrifying. It scared me. Once the army of walkers are around them I knew the show was just waiting for dragons and that they were safe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 21, 2017, 04:22:52 PM
I don't necessary agree with this (http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-timeline-chronology-problems.html) Vulture article from beginning to end in regards to GoT's perceived problem with time and place, but it does bring up some interesting points for debate:

"There's an even bigger issue with scrapping the commonplace logic that it takes a long time to get to faraway places: Without firm rules about time and geography, suddenly everything becomes possible. The pressures that create obstacles for our beloved and reviled characters no longer feel all that hard to overcome. The strategic cost of sending Jon Snow beyond the Wall to collect a wight would be massive if he were taking himself out of the diplomatic game for episodes on end, and his near-death moment in the ambush would be similarly colossal. Instead, we're left with ... you know, the battle is cool! The dragons are cool! But it doesn't feel all that astonishing or impressive when Dany saves them, because apparently flying across the continent is just a thing someone can do without any further explanation.

This is the real problem with abandoning incontrovertible rules for space and time, even in a made-up universe like the one in Game of Thrones. Once your audience notices the fictional world is fickle, the seams of the whole thing become visible. Once you've seen behind the curtain of how the story works, you look at each event in the narrative for what it really is (a decision made to push the story forward) rather than what you'd like it to be (the story as a story, the end)."


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 21, 2017, 08:17:29 PM
Has it leaked yet?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 04:32:15 PM
Re: timelines, rules, perceived inconsistencies.

The bottom line is that Game of Thrones does not have time to explain everything. Usually you can come up with a very reasonable explanation without too much effort. As film fans, we take for granted that the audience should have to do a lot of the work — we are even excited when a film demands that of us. Why should that be different for a TV show?

There was even a prime example in this episode: When Jon & friends were stuck on that island, they barely said a single word about what was happening — we really did have to figure it out. I deeply respect this show for sticking to its principles even as the pace increases.

People think they want to see all the explanations, but they don't. They really don't. We already have a lot of shows and movies that do that, and they are generally not good.

I am severely disappointed in the critical community right now. Even the AV Club reviews have been kind of trash all season. I guess that's what happens when you don't have screeners and are forced to put something together in 2 hours. You're just cramming for a test at that point, probably not even enjoying the viewing experience very much. What a profoundly stupid approach.

So many Game of Thrones reviews and podcasts are mostly just evaluating what's good and what's bad about an episode. If you spend all your time doing that, you just don't have time to analyze much of anything. Evaluation and analysis are two very different things. But this is what GoT has done. It's spawned an industry of evaluators and nitpickers.

"Let's just go through the episode and describe all the ways in which it's not perfect." Okay, but why? What value are you even providing to Game of Thrones fans?

And trust me, I've tried pretty much all the podcasts.

"Nerdette Recaps Game of Thrones" — 50% nitpicking, 30% evaluation, 10% what the books do better, 10% actual analysis (being generous). This is a somewhat entertaining but truly insufferable podcast. I deleted it last season, tried it this season but sure enough deleted it out of frustration once again.

"A Cast of Kings" & "Binge Mode" — These are about half evaluation and half analysis. Above average podcasts. I'm skipping them this week, though.

"Game of Thrones the Podcast" from Bald Move — This is still the best GoT podcast, and it's not even close. Deep analysis and consistently entertaining. There is some nitpicking, but it's always put in perspective.

I could rant some more, but I should probably leave it there for now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 22, 2017, 05:12:06 PM
If you do the work you have to make the assumption that someone discovered a teleportation machine and that the show failed to mention it somehow. I'm not saying they should show the boring parts or anything, they could go as fast as they are while maintaining the fabric of the world of Game of Thrones. The fact that things take time should impact the events. You can skip all you want, but you should not treat the story as an easy gateway to everything you want. As entertaining and well done as this season can be, thinking about it is what brings it down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 22, 2017, 05:25:39 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PM
– Tyrion's fireside dialogue was not good. He sounded like an idiot. Dany's responses were great though, so maybe a wash.

Couldn't agree more, she is right to wait UNTIL she is officially Queen of everything. (ok I'm assuming you meant when discussing who will be her heir)

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PM
Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

That's an interesting take, still it seems to me that their fight should end by explaining just a few key events, where did Arya find the message?

Sansa did try to get her to reason but wouldn't listen to her, she said to her what I said last week that Cersei forced her, maybe not by putting a knife in her throat but with the threat of killing their father, still Arya wouldn't have it, she's so narrow minded.

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

I don't think either will die because that's too dumb, both have survived greater horrors to meet an end for this dumb quarrel.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PM
A couple more crucial things to note here. Arya made much of her lie detector test. Sansa appears to have passed it. Inevitable conclusion: Arya performs this test on Littlefinger and he fails.

Maybe Arya is playing a game, one that will lead to the demise of Little Finger...



Forgetting about the time that passes what happened in the north worked for me, from the moment Dany appears with two dragons I knew one had to go down, maybe this is dumb but I wonder if that dragon will shoot fire or ice...

I think Dany truly fell in love with Jon when he stays to fight instead of flying away, bravery and selflessness is a big thing for her.


That WW that Jon kills has been killed three times now, at least two by his hand here and in Hardhome, and one by Sam which I'm not sure if it's the same one.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 06:47:02 PM
Quote from: Drenk on August 22, 2017, 05:12:06 PMIf you do the work you have to make the assumption that someone discovered a teleportation machine and that the show failed to mention it somehow.

Which instance of travel this season cannot be explained by the passage of time? The chronology seems pretty easy to understand.

Quote from: Fernando on August 22, 2017, 05:25:39 PMAlso they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

Quote from: Fernando on August 22, 2017, 05:25:39 PMThat WW that Jon kills has been killed three times now, at least two by his hand here and in Hardhome, and one by Sam which I'm not sure if it's the same one.

That can't be the same one, from what I understand. I don't think we really know how many proper white walkers there are. How many babies did Craster give up? If they catch someone alive, they can probably turn them into one too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 22, 2017, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 06:47:02 PM
Quote from: Fernando on August 22, 2017, 05:25:39 PMAlso they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

I think it's also an important point that Bran (3ER), doesn't really know everything. He's capable of knowing everything, but Bran's training in the ways of three-eyed ravenry was massively truncated, and he's still figuring out how the hell it all works. At best, he can pick out bits and pieces from the overwhelming agglomerate of information that's flowing through him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 22, 2017, 08:12:31 PM
Quote from: polkablues on August 22, 2017, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 06:47:02 PM
Quote from: Fernando on August 22, 2017, 05:25:39 PMAlso they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

I think it's also an important point that Bran (3ER), doesn't really know everything. He's capable of knowing everything, but Bran's training in the ways of three-eyed ravenry was massively truncated, and he's still figuring out how the hell it all works. At best, he can pick out bits and pieces from the overwhelming agglomerate of information that's flowing through him.

the bran thing is interesting. the complaints about him not doing anything is silly because he knows so much more then anyone else and maybe he know he doesn't have to save jon beyond the wall or sansa/arya from little finger or whatever. because they'll make it anyway.

also, as JB said, he's not Bran anymore. he clearly doesn't care about little things because he see's the big picture. he probably also busy trying to figure out if it's past, now or future atm. i mean, he hooked himself with a tree and thinks he's a tree eyed raven. the kid is fucked up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 22, 2017, 09:20:40 PM
Here's what the director had to say about the events of the episode/pacing:
Quote"We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy. We've got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance...In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn't. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there's a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story's momentum carries over some of that stuff. It's cool that the show is so important to so many people that it's being scrutinized so thoroughly. If the show was struggling, I'd be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it's OK to have people with those concerns."

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall-timeline-director-1202534403/

Pretty iffy on that last sentence but whatevs.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 10:23:21 PM
Oof, you're not kidding, that last sentence is garbage. I read another interview with Alan Taylor, and he was sort of unconvincing there too. I do think a lot of the complaints could have been prevented with another minute or two of screen time. This director doesn't seem interested enough in that. I hope they've learned a few lessons for next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 22, 2017, 10:38:29 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 04:32:15 PM

So many Game of Thrones reviews and podcasts are mostly just evaluating what's good and what's bad about an episode. If you spend all your time doing that, you just don't have time to analyze much of anything. Evaluation and analysis are two very different things. But this is what GoT has done. It's spawned an industry of evaluators and nitpickers.


A bit off subject, but I've noticed critics and society these days (even Twitter) are too much about bitching and complaining and less about trying to find the positive side or giving things deeper analysis. People love to find something wrong everywhere and that's not a good way to enjoy life.

This is the good and bad side of watching shows week to week. You think about each thing too much. When I watched seasons 1-6 in a span of 3 months last year, it was magical because I was totally immersed in the story and the journey and didn't give two fucks about some spotty dialogue or a badly directed sequence. It's a marathon and not a sprint. GoT is about enjoying the ride, being patient, and for all of us who got immersed in the story it's beautiful and incredible to see some of the payoffs of the past episode, from dragons burning WW, to all those crazy characters coming together and fighting for their survival as a team, to the Daenerys and Jon relationship and so much more that has happened this season.

I love that I can analyze and discuss the episodes with people after they happen, but I don't need all the bitching and complaining. I'm focusing on having a great time and seeing where they will take us next. As much as some things have become a little more predictable (we were all waiting for dragons to show up and save the day), we still have no clue what will happen next and that is awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 22, 2017, 11:45:56 PM
Quote from: Kal on August 22, 2017, 10:38:29 PM
...I was totally immersed in the story and the journey and didn't give two fucks about some spotty dialogue or a badly directed sequence. It's a marathon and not a sprint. GoT is about enjoying the ride, being patient, and for all of us who got immersed in the story.

On that note, I think this is what a lot of fans miss the most. Some fans do want everything to be slow and clear, each and every sequence followed through carefully, every conversation being on screen etc. GOT is unconventional fantasy for most but arguably the most attractive aspect of fantasy is possibility of getting lost in the world and story and previous seasons probably catered to those fans very well. Everyone expects the climax of the show to speed things up but I don't think anyone expected things to go this fast. For a lot of people, GOT was about letting things unfold gradually, they probably consider S7 to be very pretty cliff notes in a way.
Of course, the reality is that GOT cannot be the show it once was because we're in the third act, we're at a point of the story where the old rules no longer apply and the writing just isn't there to support it. I am very interested in seeing how GRRM continues the story (whenever the books come out).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 23, 2017, 12:15:18 AM
There's probably an interview about this somewhere, but I suspect it has to do with being able to release the final season in a timely manner. Production time increases as the spectacle increases. And with this story, the spectacle is increasing and not letting up. It's already going to take them quite a long time to deliver these final 13 episodes. Imagine how long it would take to produce 20.

I would also guess this: D&D are uncomfortable filling in too many details in this final stretch when all they have to go on is GRRM's bullet points. Better to keep it streamlined than attempt to do a full-blown imitation of Martin's gradually unfolding tapestry. They are really doing the best they can.

That's just where we are, and it's no one's fault but Martin's. We are going to get two different endings to this story. (Assuming, you know, those books get written.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 23, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 23, 2017, 12:15:18 AM
We are going to get two different endings to this story. (Assuming, you know, those books get written.)

I am hoping that everyone is aligned enough so that doesn't happen though. It would suck to have to very different endings, especially knowing the TV one will come first and the book one would probably end up being better. It's hard to imagine a better ending after you have already seen it (as long as the TV ending doesn't suck.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 23, 2017, 10:44:52 AM
Subhead from a new Vox article today: "Where did those big chains come from? And many, many other questions."

This kind of trash is all over the internet right now. There were chains somewhere beyond the wall. The Night King acquired them. Question answered. WHO CARES? Are people really this bored?

I just have a queasy feeling, like this is yet another show where many fans will be determined to sabotage their own experience in the final stretch. If you actively try to erode your suspension of disbelief, you will be successful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 23, 2017, 10:51:54 AM
Quote from: Kal on August 23, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
I am hoping that everyone is aligned enough so that doesn't happen though. It would suck to have to very different endings, especially knowing the TV one will come first and the book one would probably end up being better. It's hard to imagine a better ending after you have already seen it (as long as the TV ending doesn't suck.)

GRRM talks a lot about being a gardener instead of an architect in terms of writing but I can't imagine he doesn't have some sort of endpoint he's focused on. He must have some vague idea of how certain characters will meet, how they'll manage the Westeros crisis, how the WW get vanquished, which main characters live and die etc
He's mentioned a bittersweet ending which seems to imply that some key decisions have been made.

It's safe to assume some of the most crucial elements will be in place in both show and story. How we get to the end is anybody's guess. There's a whole bunch of notable discrepancies between the book and the show. There is one character with a ridiculous amount of potential story significance that has been cut entirely from the show. So we might see a very different story towards the end. For dedicated fans, they'll get to experience the delight of Jon meeting Dany amongst other scenes in a relatively fresh new way.

A lot of fans have reached the stage where they think the books are never coming out but I'm really, really hoping the dude manages to put out the last books and to do it well. It will be fascinating to compare the two works.

EDIT:
GRRM:
QuoteHow independent are the showrunners from you? Simply put: could they save the life of a character you've decided to kill? Or could they kill someone who's still alive in your books?"

"They are independent. They can do whatever they want. I don't have any power... any contractual right to [stop them]. I consult with them. I talk to them on a regular basis. Of course, years ago, we had a series of very long meetings, where I told them some of the big twists and turns and huge events that were coming in the last few books. So they've been touching [on] some of these, and doing some of the reveals, but they have also been departing in various ways.

The biggest one is one that you just mentioned: probably right now, right as we talk, there are close to 20 characters who are dead on the show, who are still alive in the books. Some of them are very minor characters, but also there are major characters, like Rickon Stark, Barristan Selmy, Myrcella Baratheon. All of them — dead on the show, but alive in the books.

Cool that he describes those 3 as major characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 27, 2017, 11:30:51 PM
BOOM!

I know I've said it before, but I think this is the best episode of the series. At the very least, it stands side by side with The Winds of Winter. It was the same kind of surreal viewing experience — in some moments I couldn't believe what I was seeing because my dreams were being so thoroughly fulfilled.

What makes this episode so great? It's deeply and relentlessly character-driven. Almost in a literal sense. You feel every character's motivation propelling this thing along. Any character beat that wasn't pitch-perfect was later revealed to be part of a twist, making it more perfect. This was truly a magnificent thing to watch.

I think this is my proudest moment of GoT observation; I didn't hear it echoed anywhere, but I was 100% convinced:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PMSansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

When Sansa turned her head and said "Littlefinger," I literally started clapping and continued to do so at various points throughout that spectacular scene. It was the most paying payoff of all payoffs. I still can't believe it actually happened. God bless this show.

I'm interested in what lands and territory Cersei will attempt to claim while she has the chance. Does anyone have an idea? Will she overextend and get caught up in the battle anyway? Who are we kidding, of course she will. The Golden Company could be a fascinating thing here, too. From what I understand, they are mostly Westerosi exiles who want to return home. Will they be inspired by Daenerys & Jon's heroism and switch sides? Who are we kidding, of course they will. That little scene with Tyrion tempting Bronn might even foreshadow this development. I can see Bronn leading the Golden Company, too, since he's also a mercenary. That would be an epic way for him to switch sides, which would also prove his loyalty beyond just words.

So it looks like Viserion breathes a kind of blue flame. I'd guess it's some kind of energy magic, rather than frost or fire. In fact, I'm having a very specific flashback to my WoW-playing days — there was a spell called Frostfire Bolt. It didn't deal Frost damage or Fire damage; it dealt Frostfire damage. Simply its own thing.

And just watch, someone will complain that the ice dragons GRRM wrote about breathed freezing cold, not any kind of fire. But those were living ice dragons, not undead Targaryen dragons.

[Warning: fan-bashing ahead]

The mindless orgy of nitpicking that's spanned the last seven days seems even more dumb and petty now. And I bet a lot of those fans and critics were watching the first half of this episode with their arms crossed, determined to sabotage their own experience.

This urge to have all the explanations now is a bizarre approach to fiction that I still don't understand. People absolutely freaked out over things that they'd have the answers to just a week later. Patience is hard.

I'm not going to say I'm not guilty of this. I hated the Sansa rape storyline with every fiber of my being, and I was determined to believe that any characterization to come from that would be ill-gotten gains that I would not accept. And yet... it paid off. Sansa learned and was hardened and got revenge. Her character would not be in the same place without that suffering. Not fast enough, at least. In the real world, trauma usually does not make you a stronger and more powerful person, but against all odds they've successfully done that with Sansa. I have to admit I was wrong. You might say I couldn't have known at the time, because the payoff seemed catastrophically unlikely and would not arrive for a very long time. TLDR: it's kind of worth it to keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 28, 2017, 01:41:15 AM
I laughed out loud at the Greyjoy sailor dude kneeing Theon in the groin to no effect, and I'm still not sure if that moment was brilliant or moronic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 28, 2017, 01:53:27 AM
Possibly the best episode of the season.

This season was kinda silly and weak in some parts but it was endlessly entertaining and finally brought everything together for the endgame.

So many good things about this episode.

- All three Lannisters were at the top of their game. In the past, the show was often at its best when it was Lannisters talking. Good to see we have them top tier Lannister scenes again. Lena Headey was so good in the Tyrion and Jaime scenes, I became interested in Cersei again- even if her plans are crazier than ever.
- Overall, just a strong character driven episode loaded with great little interactions.
- Great to see Jaime growing a backbone. I was so scared The Mountain was going to do something. But finally, finally, Jaime, thank god.
- Snow falling on KL was stunning
- The Hound and Brienne talking was a great moment.
- I totally knew that Qyburn was going to hop out of his seat out of curiosity, but it was still very fun to see.
- They cleared up Bran's powers and now we know the extent of his abilities- past and present but only if he's actively looking for it.
- I was so happy to see see Theon stand and being to prove himself again. This time, I'm convinced he'll become the man he was always meant to be. In a way, this was the best thing about the episode. Seeing him stumble into the sand and splash his face with seawater. So bloody good. Alfie Allen has always been the best of the younger GOT actors.
- I was absolutely thrilled to see the Winterfell storyline being resolved so entertainingly after being awful un-enjoyable viewing for most of the season.
- I'm kind of concerned what Tyrion told Cersei to 'convince' her to join and why he was so concerned looking while skulking around on the boat.
- Silly Rhaegar, naming two of his sons Aegon. Also, wow, Rhaegar. Good casting too, him and Viserys look very similar. Rhaegar's still a douchehole.
- I'm hoping Tormund and Beric are doing okay. Last scene was hectic.

I'll stop there because I'll be listing things for almost every scene.

Quote from: polkablues on August 28, 2017, 01:41:15 AM
I laughed out loud at the Greyjoy sailor dude kneeing Theon in the groin to no effect, and I'm still not sure if that moment was brilliant or moronic.

It was pretty damn goofy but I liked that Theon started to grin. I can't remember the last time I saw him with an expression like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on August 28, 2017, 09:06:24 AM
I like-like GOT, not love-love. The past couple of seasons, although they undoubtedly had their moments, never really lived up to the thrill of the first two or three seasons for me. Also, I'm not a GOT obsessive in that I will scour the internet for theories, and I've not read the books, so I'll freely admit I've maybe missed out on a lot of the details that super fans are aware of. Basically, I've depended on you guys to fill in the gaps for me. So thanks for that.

I've just caught up with the entirely of this season over the past week. Not sure 6 eps in a week technically counts as bingewatching, but that's what I've done. All in time to read the past several pages of this thread ahead of watching last night's finale (after I watched TP, of course.) In the context of the type of viewer I am of this show, I've really enjoyed this season. We're in the third act now, and things are picking up. We're back at the levels of action and excitement of the show's early seasons, before it became bloated, meandering, and slow. I'm all in favor of this faster pacing, and seeing different groups of characters finally come together for the first time - or reunite - has been a joy. And it's happened almost every episode. The weakest parts have been the Winterfell story (although worth enduring to finally see the end of Littlefinger) and Jamie's fakeout death. Although I do think they could have painted Littlerfinger as a bit more of a Big Villain throughout the season. But that's a nitpick. It was still a great scene and so nice to see him gone.

Also just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of what's already been said by others here over the course of the season. This show has become (genuinely or artificially?) a zeitgeisty show that the gods of social media demand is watched on a weekly basis, lest ye be spoiled. I've pretty much skimmed past anything GOT-related, and made it through the past 7 weeks completely unspoiled. But a lot of what I've noticed does seem to be hype-y for click's sake. People who write stuff for web clicks have been told that GOT gets clicks, so there's apparently a lot of crap out there. Either OMG! hyperbole or terminally unsatisfied nitpicking. I'm not interested in either. Thanks to all of you for calling that out too. It's entertainment for me, and this season has delivered on the promise of the setup for sure.

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for a prediction on how this all turns out... Cerei becomes increasingly irrelevant, a great ironic ending would be King's Landing overtaken by winter, she dies clinging on to the iron throne, but with none of the power it once represented. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany rule as leaders of the people from Winterfell, the new capital of what survives of Westeros. Because the North is the only place that has been preparing for the coming winter. Of course, I'm also anticipating massive fallout from Dany once Jon's true parentage is revealed - without proof, she'll assume it's a plot to usurp her claim to the throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 28, 2017, 10:36:47 AM
Quote from: Sleepless on August 28, 2017, 09:06:24 AM

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for a prediction on how this all turns out... Cerei becomes increasingly irrelevant, a great ironic ending would be King's Landing overtaken by winter, she dies clinging on to the iron throne, but with none of the power it once represented. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany rule as leaders of the people from Winterfell, the new capital of what survives of Westeros. Because the North is the only place that has been preparing for the coming winter. Of course, I'm also anticipating massive fallout from Dany once Jon's true parentage is revealed - without proof, she'll assume it's a plot to usurp her claim to the throne.


I like the idea of Cersei just becoming irrelevant as opposed to suffering a horrible death. It would be much worse for her to be alive and powerless than to die. Reminds me of Uncle Junior in The Sopranos, which at one point was Tony's biggest thread only to end up old, sick, sad and alone.

Also, the idea of winter coming full force and destroying Kings Landing is possible. Remember Daenerys' dream at the end of season 2 when she sees the Iron Throne covered in snow and the palace with no roof, etc? Maybe that is a premonition.

That wall coming down though. I wish the old men at the Citadel could see that happening and shit their pants. I can't help but think it would have been so much cooler if they skipped that ending in the previous episode, and we suddenly unexpectedly saw Viserion show up at the end of the finale instead. That would have been insane.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 28, 2017, 11:46:37 AM
Quote from: Sleepless on August 28, 2017, 09:06:24 AMBut a lot of what I've noticed does seem to be hype-y for click's sake. People who write stuff for web clicks have been told that GOT gets clicks, so there's apparently a lot of crap out there. Either OMG! hyperbole or terminally unsatisfied nitpicking.

The worst one I read last week (which I can't find right now) argued that the rift between Sansa and Arya was a failure of creativity resulting from having no women in the writer's room. Because the 2-3 dudes writing this show simply can't understand a sister relationship. It was a really bad take that of course turned out to be completely wrong.

Then there was this, which seems demonstrably false and is also a super bizarre argument to make, but it's actually just dumb clickbait so who cares I guess:

Jon and Dany Have More Chemistry in This Photo Than In All of Game of Thrones (http://themuse.jezebel.com/jon-and-dany-have-more-chemistry-in-this-photo-than-in-1798406989)

I also just skimmed a couple articles that ranted about all the unresolved things in the show, and how this was destroying the season, such a problem, etc. (one example here (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/08/14/this-is-what-worries-me-about-last-nights-episode-of-game-of-thrones/#2168f5f32384)). How profoundly stupid is it to complain about unresolved plots in the penultimate episode of a season? That's when we should have the MOST unresolved things so they can be resolved in the FINALE! Jesus Christ. Anyway it's fun to just go down their lists and check things off... resolved, wrong, resolved, resolved, wrong.

Put simply, it's easy to nitpick, but it's quite hard (and not provocative enough) to describe how and why something is amazing. "Game of Thrones is actually great"... I don't see that headline generating many clicks.

Edit: LOL, when you search for "Game of Thrones is actually great" (without quotes) these are results you get on the first page:

- Is Game of Thrones really that good?
- Is Game of Thrones actually good? We chew it over
- Ask Alan: How Good Is 'Game Of Thrones' Really?
- 9 Reasons 'Game of Thrones' Is Actually a Terrible Show
- Why Game Of Thrones Is Actually A Terrible Show
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 28, 2017, 01:22:50 PM
"I want to close here, however, with a thought that's not meant to get Benioff and Weiss off the hook, even though it's probably going to sound that way: Maybe it's the White Walker threat itself that is killing the show, and perhaps it would've killed it eventually anyhow, whether the showrunners had fresh Martin novels to draw on or not. The story of a kingdom warring against itself while a greater threat gathers is one that's been building steam since season one, and that's Martin's idea, not Weiss and Benioff's. It's a great story with a touch of a parable to it, and it seems more relevant now than ever before (see the news for details). But no matter how it plays out, the end result will be to retrospectively cast all of the feuds and double-crosses, tragedies and victories that came before as comparatively trivial. "None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat" is a good idea on paper, but given how much emotion we've invested in the stories of all these characters over the course of seven seasons, and how deeply invested we are in the humanity of even the worst of them, that might not be a sentiment that anyone, not even the hardiest of die-hard Thrones fans, wants to hear. It could be that no matter how we get to that ending, and whether it's a happy one, a tragic-ironic one, or something in between, it will still disappoint us on some level, because it will constitute a negation of our interest as viewers, and even the most vocal boosters of Thrones know that the series is probably not equipped to make the sorts of nuanced philosophical statements required to satisfactorily deal with something like that."

http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html?utm_campaign=vulture&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 28, 2017, 02:45:15 PM
I like where the pieces ended up for sure and there were some great moments. Most moments mentioned here I did love, but the only part that got my blood pumping was the Cersei/Jaime scene.

It's just sloppier now. I forgive the show and I'm fine with it. I still love watching it and will be VERY excited when it comes back on. It's just not as careful as it once was.

The Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger stuff just fucking sucked. It would have been worth being so frustrated and bored by that story-line if Littlefinger's death had been more satisfying. The turn was telegraphed a little too heavily for that moment to be all that exciting. I was just relieved to have been done with it.

And how much cooler would it have been if we hadn't seen the dragon being pulled out of the water at the end of the last episode? We see the army of the dead marching toward the wall, then we see a dragon coming and oh fuck, who's riding that dragon? Oh NO!

Anyway, I really do still love this show. I just think this season was sloppy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 28, 2017, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: Drenk on August 28, 2017, 01:22:50 PM"But no matter how it plays out, the end result will be to retrospectively cast all of the feuds and double-crosses, tragedies and victories that came before as comparatively trivial. 'None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat' is a good idea on paper, but given how much emotion we've invested in the stories of all these characters over the course of seven seasons, and how deeply invested we are in the humanity of even the worst of them, that might not be a sentiment that anyone, not even the hardiest of die-hard Thrones fans, wants to hear."

Wow. I think he's completely wrong there. Like he's missing the point.

"None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat" is a rhetorical technique used by characters within the show to convince other characters. In truth, the feuds and double-crosses and alliances matter greatly. Those events have brought things exactly where they are right now. Those very alliances are currently dictating exactly how the white walkers are fought, including humanity's chance of winning this fight! Why is Daenerys going to help fight the white walkers? Because she came to Westeros to conquer it, and because she allied with Jon. That's also why the Night King has his own dragon and was able to bring down the wall. How could you describe that as "comparatively trivial"??? That doesn't make any sense, because these things are so obviously connected.

I have never seen Matt Zoller Seitz make such a dumb argument. What is this show doing to our beloved critics?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 28, 2017, 04:02:51 PM
Loved the episode.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 27, 2017, 11:30:51 PM
I know I've said it before, but I think this is the best episode of the series. At the very least, it stands side by side with The Winds of Winter. It was the same kind of surreal viewing experience — in some moments I couldn't believe what I was seeing because my dreams were being so thoroughly fulfilled.

What makes this episode so great? It's deeply and relentlessly character-driven. Almost in a literal sense. You feel every character's motivation propelling this thing along. Any character beat that wasn't pitch-perfect was later revealed to be part of a twist, making it more perfect. This was truly a magnificent thing to watch.

I think this is my proudest moment of GoT observation; I didn't hear it echoed anywhere, but I was 100% convinced:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PMSansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

When Sansa turned her head and said "Littlefinger," I literally started clapping and continued to do so at various points throughout that spectacular scene. It was the most paying payoff of all payoffs. I still can't believe it actually happened. God bless this show.

Good prediction. I was wrong you guys were right, Bran intervened at the right time, and Sansa and Arya fooled LF (and me), probably the only way he could be fooled by actually fighting or pretending to do so, and as you said that moment when Sansa says his name in the great hall was so amazing, I wanted for a long time to see the unmasking of all the shit Little Finger has caused, the conspiracy to murder Jon Arryn, how he betrayed Ned (YES!!!), the dagger, everything. A really emotional moment.

Bran was great too, and that thing he did when Sam tells him about Jon's true birth, he really can see everything but he needs further information to trace the past, like knowing that bit of info about the High Septon's diary and realizing not only Jon's birth but that Robert's rebellion was nothing but a lie. Now, if Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, did she died giving birth or something else? You guys must remember how bloody she was when Bran saw her with her father.
I'm glad he saw the NK riding the dragon, now Dany can't hesitate about this war.


Quote from: Lottery on August 28, 2017, 01:53:27 AM
- All three Lannisters were at the top of their game. In the past, the show was often at its best when it was Lannisters talking. Good to see we have them top tier Lannister scenes again. Lena Headey was so good in the Tyrion and Jaime scenes, I became interested in Cersei again- even if her plans are crazier than ever.
- Overall, just a strong character driven episode loaded with great little interactions.
- Great to see Jaime growing a backbone. I was so scared The Mountain was going to do something. But finally, finally, Jaime, thank god.

Agree, I have missed those long conversations and we got a few in this episode, I really thought too Cersei was gonna kill Jaime, but she couldn't and now he will go north to tell everyone she won't keep her promise to help them.

She will end up alone and will lose everything, even that baby probably.

I wanted Qyburn to keep the wight "alive" for his experiments.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on August 28, 2017, 10:00:10 PM
I just watched the episode again and I think Cersei might stay on the throne until the end after all. But it will be irrelevant and won't really matter. First of all there is the thing Jon says about not understanding why people would like to live in Kings Landing instead of the north for example. This could be foreshadowing that a lot of them will move up north when the winter is there real. The north is more prepared for winter and staying in Kings Landing might not be a possibility. I also don't think they will be very happy when they realize their queen choice to not help Jon/Dany in the war against the NK and decide they want to follow them instead.

It would be a poetic ending and fit her character. She will sit on the throne until the very end because of her stubbornness and it will be the end of her. The wheel will be broken, the lone wolf dies and the pack survives, etc.

I liked the episode. People are saying it was predictably but I thought it was fairly  unpredictably how they focused on the character instead of big battles or deaths. That has been standard for the last couple of seasons anyway. It was nice to see something different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 01:06:43 AM
Some are saying the finale proved the "capture a wight" plan was dumb, because Cersei isn't on board after all. But she wasn't the only audience. Jaime is emphatically on board and seems to be defecting. Which could lead to Bronn leaving. And others. This meeting may have other effects too that we've only begun to understand.

It forced Jon to publicly announce his loyalty to Daenerys, which led to other things, which might lead to her becoming pregnant with an heir.

It's like I've been saying. One event leads to another which leads to something else, etc. etc. These novelistic setups require patience to pay off.

Here's a random fun thing I noticed. Jon says he cannot serve two queens, and Randyll Tarly said basically the same thing. In retrospect that feels like foreshadowing. And I really like that symmetry. One of them chose wisely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 30, 2017, 03:02:35 AM
I still think it's dumb. I understand that this resulted in the most important outcome- Dany joining forces with Jon to kill NK and also furthering their relationship as now they know each other to be good, selfless people. But the fact we had to get Jon leading a ranging mission (alongside Jorah Mormont, Sandor Clegane etc...)  beyond the wall to capture a wight while he's KitN to get that point is silly.
The payoff is logical and valuable in terms of plot (and once again sets Jaime's arc in motion again, yay) but the setup is absurd.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 07:53:36 AM
I guess I would agree it's a dumb plan in-universe, but not any more than a handful of other plans they've succeeded with. Battle of the Bastards was a dumb plan, and they had no hope of winning without the Sansa Ex Machina. Maybe Jon is buying his own hype in a way. Maybe he's starting to believe in fate.

As for Jon putting himself in the middle of the fight, it seems to me that this happens all the time. Why is that silly? Jon is the best at fighting the dead. Dany is the best at riding dragons. Euron is the best at killing dudes on boats. Even Tyrion fought during Battle of the Blackwater, and attempted to fight before that. Robert fought in Robert's Rebellion. Jaime and Rob fought their own battles too.

In that context, it seems borderline reasonable that you could go beyond the wall and find a wight straggler somewhere, as they have before, and not instantly encounter the whole army. They might have been able to do that with Bran raven-scouting for them.

Presenting a wight to Cersei is the part that seemed potentially silly to me, but I'm so impressed by how that was executed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AM
Just rewatched the last three episodes. I think I have less issues with it now.
I like Littlefinger's end. Arya uses the dagger and it's so cruel, quick, and cold. The only thing I don't like are the scenes where Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, supposedly stringing him along. It's very unbelievable that she could fake the surprise, concern, etc... so well. It's because Sophie Turner is playing it like it's genuine and that's intentional, because the audience is being lied to. That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.

Speaking of being lied to, what's up with Cersei and Tyrion? If we are going to believe Cersei's big fake-out plan, she walks away from it knowing that Tyrion would come talk to her. This is when we get half a conversation. What happened in the second half of that conversation? Watching it back-to-back with the previous episode made me aware that Tyrion JUST expressed concerns with Danny about her not have a successor and the last piece of his exchange with Cersei, Tyrion "finds out" (Cersei seemed pretty deliberate about touching her stomach) that she is pregnant. What did Tyrion agree to that we didn't see? It made the moment where he is looking concernedly at the Dong of Ice in fire fuck room come of differently to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AMThat sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.

But I think enough clues were there even two weeks ago. They played fair.

Quote from: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AMWhat happened in the second half of that conversation? Watching it back-to-back with the previous episode made me aware that Tyrion JUST expressed concerns with Danny about her not have a successor and the last piece of his exchange with Cersei, Tyrion "finds out" (Cersei seemed pretty deliberate about touching her stomach) that she is pregnant. What did Tyrion agree to that we didn't see? It made the moment where he is looking concernedly at the Dong of Ice in fire fuck room come of differently to me.

I believe he did made some kind of deal with her. Perhaps simply a promise to let her child live. I could even see Tyrion going behind Dany's back to make that happen. I don't know how that would actually play out, though, because surely Cersei won't be alive in 8-9 months.

Tyrion brooding in the boat is very interesting. What's your take on that? I didn't know what to think at first. I've come to think he's mostly worried about how this complicates things and compromises their judgment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 11:18:21 AM
Tyrion brooding in the boat is very interesting. What's your take on that? I didn't know what to think at first. I've come to think he's mostly worried about how this complicates things and compromises their judgment.

At first, I was like "Aw, he's just another Jora in love with Dany" then I decided it was more what you're talking about (especially because the director said as much, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what it is). Now I think there might be something more complicated that will play out next year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 05:24:14 PM
Oh my. Here's an article offering actual deep analysis of this season. Highly recommended.

Game of Thrones season 7: each character's strategy, ranked by political science (https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/28/16205048/game-of-thrones-season-7-cersei-daenerys-jon-snow)

Spoiler alert: Tyrion is not #1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 30, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
Quote from: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AM
The only thing I don't like are the scenes where Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, supposedly stringing him along. It's very unbelievable that she could fake the surprise, concern, etc... so well. It's because Sophie Turner is playing it like it's genuine and that's intentional, because the audience is being lied to. That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AMThat sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.
But I think enough clues were there even two weeks ago. They played fair.

At this stage, I'm not entirely sure what the writers were even going for.
QuoteIt's clear after Sansa turns the tables on Littlefinger that she has had some sort of conversation with Bran, but we don't get to see it. When did it take place?
We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran's door and says, "I need your help," or something along those lines. So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she's like, "Oh, s—."
http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-finale-cut-scene-1202541941/

Ultimately it was a pretty rubbish storyline anyway.

Regarding Tyrion, I'm pretty sure he's upset because he doesn't want any distractions from their initial shared goal (Dany's dream is maybe the only thing that Tyrion thinks is worth living for), he knows how badly things can end when love interferes with duty. There's the theory that he made a deal with Cersei, which is a scary thought and could cause some serious drama down the line. There's the idea that he's upset because he thinks an heir (from Jon and Dany) will ruin the chances of breaking the wheel- though at this stage he should still be thinking Dany is infertile. So because of that I'm sticking with love clouding judgement, confused priorities and other complications.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 12:14:37 AM
Quote from: Lottery on August 30, 2017, 11:27:57 PMAt this stage, I'm not entirely sure what the writers were even going for.

Given what Arya is now, I think it was essential that Sansa earned her trust the hard way. They were never going to have an easy reunion. Now this Stark unit is actually stronger than ever. Plus, Littlefinger had to have one last scheme — a desperate and audacious one as he runs out of options. I thought it was very well done.

Quote from: Lottery on August 30, 2017, 11:27:57 PMRegarding Tyrion, I'm pretty sure he's upset because he doesn't want any distractions from their initial shared goal (Dany's dream is maybe the only thing that Tyrion thinks is worth living for), he knows how badly things can end when love interferes with duty. There's the theory that he made a deal with Cersei, which is a scary thought and could cause some serious drama down the line. There's the idea that he's upset because he thinks an heir (from Jon and Dany) will ruin the chances of breaking the wheel- though at this stage he should still be thinking Dany is infertile. So because of that I'm sticking with love clouding judgement, confused priorities and other complications.

Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

From my POV, he should be sort of happy that the Targaryen-Stark alliance looks significantly more solid now.

He does have reason to worry, though. Dany and Jon will probably end up making strategic decisions based on a desire to protect each other or even simply to be together. Just as Dany wanted to travel with Jon despite the risks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 31, 2017, 12:52:37 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 12:14:37 AM
Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

I'm a bit puzzled by Tyrion these days. He's been a pretty crummy/often ignored hand. He was useless last season, he has a bunch of great scenes this season but generally speaking how valuable has he really been recently? He vouched for Jon, convinced Dany to let Jon mine the dragonglass, suggested the stupid wight plan (and then told Dany to not save Jon and friends), negotiated the dragonpit meeting and then the Cersei agreement (which she quickly betrayed). So, strangely enough he's been there to assist with some of the most important decisions in the season but he's probably failed and been ignored just as much. Exploring his frustrations as the hand of someone he truly admires would be a cool idea (and the boat skulking scene would add to that). Like Varys and LF, perhaps the writers don't really know what to do him anymore in terms of being an active character, I'd hate to see him exist as an accessory to the Dany/Jon story. The theorised secret deal with Cersei would be shocking and disheartening but would demonstrate a welcome degree of independence.

Now that we've finished the season, I am even more eager in seeing how GRRM will navigate these plots- the decisions Tyrion makes in particular but that said, considering that how far the book/show are diverging, we'll probably never get to see how he would do it. I hope something like the Dragonpit meeting (as in the prominent characters come together [in a thematically significant location] to recognise the real threat) will turn up in the book. It has to, right?

As an aside, the Jaime on horseback/putting on glove/snow falling might be my favourite part of the season. The scene had time to breathe. I really liked that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 04:13:48 PM
GoT press malpractice continues. I'm listening to The Ringer's podcast (Binge Mode: Game of Thrones). It's considered one of the most expert-driven podcasts, and they usually offer some pretty good analysis (though I skipped E6). Anyway, they were complaining about Ghost not appearing:


"Did we literally not see him this season?"
"We did not see Ghost this season."
"This is fucking crazy... it's pathetic..."
"To have an entire season of Game of Thrones without a dire wolf appearance, is..."
"It's shameful, honestly."
"Malpractice."
"It's honestly shameful."
"It's malpractice. Oh man. That fuckin' pisses me off."
"Yeah! It's crazy!"
"I'm getting heated! God damnit..."


Woops, they forgot that we saw Nymeria and her pack. They were a centerpiece of Episode 2.

I would have liked to see Ghost as well, but apparently after the Nymeria scene, for budget/time reasons they had to choose between the zombie polar bear and Ghost. I think they made an okay decision. Did we really want to see Ghost imperiled along with the Magnificent Seven? Did we want to see him curled up at the foot of the bed, barking in approval while Jon and Dany went at it?

Also in this podcast they suggested it would have been nice for the show to explain the type of magic that Undead Viserion was spewing. Umm... really? Are you sure you want that? Do you want one of the guards on the wall to pause and say: "Oh, look! It's not fire, but it's not ice — it must be some new kind of dark energy! And look, it's taking down the wall! Run!"

It's supremely disappointing that when GoT trusts the audience, fans will snipe back at the show all the more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
And yet, later in that same podcast, they gave me chills describing why the Littlefinger/Sansa/Arya scenes were so great. There's so much character-driven loaded meaning at every turn.

Here's something that didn't occur to me, which they pointed out. Sansa passed the sentence, but Arya carried it out — despite Ned saying that he who passes the sentence must swing the sword. But rather than this being a transgression, it emphasizes that Sansa and Arya are becoming a unit. Sansa is the mind, and Arya is the blade. That could have really exciting implications next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on September 01, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
See the Final Beautiful Death From Season 7

"The Dragon and the Wolf" was a super-sized episode and it packed an emotional punch for those rooting for the Stark children, as well as fans of master-manipulator Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish. Artist Robert Ball shares how he approached making the final Beautiful Death piece for Season 7.

Ball refers to the Season 7 finale as, "One of the classic Game of Thrones episodes. It took me a while to come back down to earth afterwards. And that surprise death! Petyr Baelish was one of my favorite characters, and if I were a betting man, my money would have been on him sitting on the Iron Throne at the saga's end — which is why I never gamble, and why I was doubly upset when his schemes finally caught up with him."

"When I saw Littlefinger fall to the Great Hall floor, my immediate idea was to use the floor's flagstones to make a web with Baelish finally caught in the lies that have spun out of control," Ball says. "Then I decided, as it's the last poster of the season, to cram in as much symbolism as the image could take."

Referencing the final drawing, Ball explains, "I've drawn Petyr a mockingbird, his sigil, with his throat cut by the Catspaw blade. The shadow of his wings form three wolves: the Stark children. [The wolf representing] Bran has white eyes, to show his power to warg. Above the mockingbird, the floor forms his web of lies, and below there is a crescent moon — a grisly version of the House Arryn sigil."

"Baelish is multi-coloured to represent his ability to insinuate his way into any house," continues Ball. "The blood from his throat forms a ladder: a nod to his famous quote, 'Chaos is a ladder,' which Bran repeated back to him [in Episode 4]. Sansa's note, which ultimately helped the Stark children trap him, is in his claws, and finally, there is blood on his heart. I believe he genuinely loved Catelyn Stark, maybe even Sansa, and this is a nod to that poisonous love."

Ball's final thought about the season ending? "Bring on Season 8!"

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/see-the-final-beautiful-death-from-season-7
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 05, 2017, 07:01:07 PM
Tyrion's boatsex reaction solved:

Title of this episode is "The Dragon and the Wolf." Much like "The Children," this refers to multiple things. In this case, they're obviously drawing a comparison between Rhaegar/Lyanna and Daenerys/Jon.

As a student of history, Tyrion knows that Rhaegar & Lyanna falling in love was an epic disaster for themselves and the realm. It was a selfish and reckless act that had an incalculable cost, and they were torn apart anyway.

This is what I said before:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 12:14:37 AMSpeaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

From my POV, he should be sort of happy that the Targaryen-Stark alliance looks significantly more solid now.

He does have reason to worry, though. Dany and Jon will probably end up making strategic decisions based on a desire to protect each other or even simply to be together. Just as Dany wanted to travel with Jon despite the risks.

But objectively speaking, the risks far outweigh any benefit there is to be gained from "strengthening the alliance." Emotionally I want to believe it, but that's not a rational viewpoint. Tyrion is trying to be a rational thinker, because after his many failures that's probably all he has left.

And yet, he might be proven wrong once again. I would like to see a Dany/Jon union actually strengthen the realm, yet another iteration of breaking the cycle and correcting the mistakes of their ancestors. Is that wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on September 09, 2017, 03:10:52 PM
New theory: Jaime is known as the King-Slayer because he killed the mad king. But what if it's also prophetic? What if he kills the Night King? Specifically, Bran - who Jaime paralyzed by pushing him through the window in the show's very first episode - wargs into Jaime to deliver the fatal blow.

Even crazier theory: Bran has to warg into Jaime to kill the Night King because it's certain death and even Jamie isn't that crazy. So Jaime kills the Night King but is summarily killed himself and becomes a solider of the army of the death. He then marches with them to Westeros, where he fulfills that other theory about him being the one who kills Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 09, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
I think the wargee has to be of less than full human intellect, like an animal or Hodor. It's possible that Jaime gets hurt enough in battle that he's wargable. But narratively, I feel like it's inevitable that Jon delivers the fatal blow to the Night King. If they upend that expectation, it'll have to be sufficiently interesting.

Whatever the case, Jaime is one of the characters I'm most curious about right now, since he does seem to be joining the coalition. Obviously there's going to be some initial conflict and worry that he's an infiltrator, but then Tyrion and Brienne vouch for Jaime's honor, and Jon calms everyone down because it's humanity vs. the dead. Still, I can't imagine the tension ever really going away.

Side note. The consensus seems to be that either Jon or Dany will survive the series, but not both. I strongly feel like Daenerys will survive. She is clearly going to get pregnant, and I kind of doubt GoT is going to kill two pregnant principal characters in one season. Jon is far more likely to put himself in a martyrdom type of situation. The show has also done a lot of work to establish that he won't be brought back again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on September 29, 2017, 10:23:59 AM
Game of Thrones' Season 8 Directors List Hints at Massive Ice Battles to Come

HBO on Tuesday announced the list of directors for the final season of Game of Thrones, and befitting that season's abbreviated length (it's only six episodes, though each will be longer than a typical GOT installment), the list is only four names long: David Nutter, Miguel Sapochnik, and showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. Benioff and Weiss will jointly handle the series finale; there's no word on episode counts for Nutter and Sapochnik. Nutter has directed six GOT episodes, including "The Rains of Castamere," while Sapochnik famously helmed both "Hardhome" and "The Battle of the Bastards." Add Sapochnik's presence to the news from Variety that each episode in the final season is expected to cost $15 million, and one thing is clear: There are going to be some major battles coming in Thrones' final season. (Good news for fans of the iconic ice dragon, who will likely get plenty more chances to cause drama.) No premiere date has yet been announced for season eight, which likely means that Jon Snow and his aunt are going to be spending a long time on that boat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on September 29, 2017, 11:00:47 AM
Because of Sapochnik? Wasn't that obvious already?

Nice list, tho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 29, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
Thank God Sapochnik is back. We are in capable hands. D&D are directing episodes, though? Interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on September 29, 2017, 05:02:19 PM
Apparently they've each directed one episode previously -- Benioff directed S03E03, Weiss directed S04E01 -- but have no other directorial experience beyond a short film Benioff made in 2006. Seeing no Michelle MacLaren or Neil Marshall on the list is sad, but Nutter and Sapochnik definitely know what they're doing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on December 07, 2017, 10:52:08 AM
Variety Interview.

'Game of Thrones': Sophie Turner Talks Pivotal Scenes, Season 8 Premiere

What was your favorite scene from last season?
It was probably the moment that you realized that Sansa was going to kill Littlefinger [Aidan Gillen] and does kill him, and when you realize that Sansa and Arya Maisie [Maisie Williams] had been scheming behind Litlefinger's back, which is a pretty impressive thing to do for two young girls against a master manipulator. It was just a really powerful moment for her, to have used up all of her master's lessons and finally discard him. The student becomes the master now.

That scene was your last with Aidan Gillen, who you've worked with a lot over the series. What was it like to be working with him for the last time.
It was really hard, because out of all the people I've worked with on the show, he has been the one who was consistent throughout, from season one to season seven. He has been my "Game of Thrones" experience. He's been the backbone of it for me. So to say goodbye to him was pretty hard, especially because life imitated art in a way, because he was also my mentor. I learned so many lessons just by watching him act. It was this weird parallel, and an emotional thing for everyone.

What has it been like for you to work through your formative years as an actor on a show like this with so many very good veteran actors?
My standards have definitely been raised. It's a blessing and a curse, "Game of Thrones" being my first job and working with such incredible scripts and such incredible veteran actors, and working with the best crew. It makes you a bit of a snob, I think. And because it was my first job, the actors on "Game of Thrones" are the people I learned to act from. I learned to act watching Lena [Headey] and Peter [Dinklage] and Maisie and Kit [Harrington] and all of these different people. I put them all on such pedestals. The thought of not working with them is almost excruciating to me. They've been my growing up.

How will Sansa fare next season without Littlefinger in her ear?
It's going to be tricky for her, because at the end of last season, she felt that she had everything set up. She had her family back together. They were in control of the North again. This season, there's a new threat, and all of a sudden she finds herself somewhat back in the deep end. And without Littlefinger, it's a test for her of whether she can get through it. It's a big challenge for her, without this master manipulator having her back. This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight.

Is that because this season she faces less a political threat and more an existential, zombie sort of threat?
Well, I don't know. We'll have to see.

Where are you at in production on season eight?
We started in October, so we're maybe like a tenth of the way through. [Laughs.] No, no, we've got six or seven months left.

Is there a consciousness on set of the fact that this is the last season?
There definitely is. When we all had the read-through for the final season, it was very, very emotional. For the first time in "Thrones" history, we had everyone there. All of the Americans wanted to come over. Every single cast member was pretty much there. We're all kind of feeling the end of it coming. We're all staying in town a little longer, going out for more meals, trying to get together more. We're all trying not to take it for granted any more.

You've been able to do the "X-Men" movies. Now that you won't have "Thrones" anymore, what else do you want to do?
I kind of want to do everything. I feel this sense that everything  is over "Game of Thrones"-wise. I have nothing to lose right now, because I don't have "Game of Thrones" anymore. I'm kind of born again, because I'm at a different stage of my career now — not necessarily at a higher level, I just find myself at a different version of my career. So I'm going to try my hand at everything.

Are you excited for next year, with "X-Men: Dark Phoenix" and season eight of "Game of Thrones" set to premiere?
Yeah, I'm really excited. "Game of Thrones" comes out in 2019. "Dark Phoenix" is in November. Then I have a couple indie movies coming out. I'm a producer on my next movie ["Girl Who Fell From the Sky"]. So I'm really excited about the future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: BreannaWatson on December 10, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
My husband watches it! But I think it's boring! Anyway, thanks for sharing your thought, guys!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on December 10, 2017, 05:31:51 PM
You're... welcome?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on December 11, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
That was a ride.

Quote from: BreannaWatson on December 10, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
My husband watches it!

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages6.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F36300000%2FRalph-Wiggum-image-ralph-wiggum-36389348-420-315.gif&hash=7bde876a17b744e6b6cb9ba331507ed43afe14c2)
Husband? And name is Breanna? Cool, we have a female Xixaxer again!

Quote from: BreannaWatson on December 10, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
But I think it's boring!

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjohngushue.typepad.com%2Fphotos%2Funcategorized%2Fralph_wiggum.gif&hash=e88b18be795ef9ce5bbfb24ff0e23fe691510325)
K... What polkablues said

Quote from: BreannaWatson on December 10, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thought, guys!

(https://i.imgflip.com/1o8i4d.jpg)

The fuck the point of that? You a Russian troll?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: lorenscope on January 04, 2018, 12:48:40 AM
Trying catch up on Season 6 and 7.  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on January 13, 2019, 09:07:32 PM
April 14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA38GCX4Tb0
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on January 14, 2019, 04:54:24 AM
holy shit
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on March 05, 2019, 11:01:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlR4PJn8b8I


Haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 05, 2019, 11:50:06 AM
Yeah, I'm going to skip this trailer as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on March 14, 2019, 03:23:30 PM


The final battle is one of the biggest battle sequences ever made and took 59 nights to shoot...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 15, 2019, 11:54:43 AM
Approximate runtimes for the final episodes!

Ep 1 – 54 min

Ep 2 – 58 min

Ep 3 – 1 hour 22 min

Ep 4 – 1 hour 18 min

Ep 5 – 1 hour 20 min

Ep 6 – 1 hour 20 min


Total: 7.2 hours / 432 min

That's kind of like getting 7 one-hour episodes. Or 10 episodes that are 43 min long each.


https://www.slashfilm.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-lengths/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 15, 2019, 07:02:13 PM
I'm rewatching seasons 6 and 7 to get ready.

I've said many times that Season 6 is the best season, but I'm not so sure anymore. There are some outright bad scenes early on (scenes, not episodes). All the scenes with Tyrion, Missandei, and Grey Worm are pretty rough, but the one with them having the walk-and-talk argument is one of the worst scenes in the show's history. The direction and staging is shockingly poor. The actors whiffed that scene so hard that I can't believe they didn't do more takes. They look uncomfortable in their costumes, which appear to be straight out of the factory, like they're on an EW cover. The writing is really bad too. What happened?

Anyway, next ep is The Door, so I'm optimistic. I'm already pretty sure we can credit good ol' Jack Bender for turning this season around.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on March 15, 2019, 08:49:24 PM
I disliked season 5 and 6.

I mentioned that the tension in the books between traditional fantasy and a more "realistic" work is what I believe ultimately destroyed the series. How can G.R.R Martin continue? It kept growing and growing and now he can't resolve this intricate mess. He forgot the Wall and what's behind it along the way, but he can't go back to it now and throw away everything that he was building up in the last two books, can he?

Anyway, after following the books Game of Thrones decided to end the series by being the traditional story that Martin avoided. It makes sense. It's the easiest path and, after all, all the elements are there. Seasons 5 and 6 were still struggling between the two.

Weirdly, in its shamelessness, season 7 is way better than the previous seasons: it's also spectacular. I enjoyed it. I've lost the characters and I don't even know what they're supposed to want except fighting the Walkers but I enjoy it.

Missandei and Grey Worm: you can imagine the fourteen year olds writing variation of these scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 16, 2019, 12:34:59 AM
I haven't watched a lot of behind-the-scenes content (and don't really intend to), but I think I remember hearing that multiple directors work on any given episode. With multiple locations, they sort of have to do that to an extent, right? This is probably why we get bad scenes here and there but never really a whole episode that disappoints. For example, 604 has all the problems I talked about, but the badness is mostly quarantined in Meereen. That same episode has great scenes: Sansa reuniting with Jon, the high sparrow telling his story to Margaery, Jon reading Ramsay's letter ("come and see"), and then finally, Daenerys burning the khals, which is one of her best scenes ever.

And the episode that follows, The Door... oh boy. Jack Bender is really one of the best.

Season 6 has some of the highest highs, and for that I really, really love it. I'll gladly take a failed scene here and there in exchange. I believe that's the most sensible way to view any television program. The best shows take big swings and require your patience — from Lost to BSG to Twin Peaks. I think that's fair.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on March 16, 2019, 07:37:22 AM
What's your theories on Season 8, JB?

Or maybe you want to rewatch season 6/7 before writing about that...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 16, 2019, 11:14:00 AM
I think I can make a few predictions...

I can't help but predict that Daenerys must successfully "break the wheel" and conquer Westeros. GoT obviously loves to upend expectations, but I feel like this is one that GRRM is comfortable fulfilling. From a writer's perspective, if you've worked at being unconventional and surprising in all different parts of the work, you've earned at least one very satisfying conventional bit. It seems pretty obvious now that Jon and Daenerys were always seeded as the real heroes. Just think of all the work they've done and all the sacrifices they've made. The red-herring heroes like Ned and Rob had no such investment from GRRM. If I were to predict who will be more heroic and victorious, between Jon and Daenerys, I would bet on Daenerys — because her ultimate success is so thematically central to the whole saga. She and Jon might both die achieving that. But it won't make them any less successful.

As much as I'd (emotionally) like to see Daenerys take the throne and rule Westeros as a benevolent dictator, I think something new is in the cards. I am very curious what "breaking the wheel" will specifically mean when Daenerys has won. Does she have radical structural change in mind, or is that an overblown expectation? I'm not sure. As I rewatch, I'll listen for the kind of wording she uses. In 606, she tells Jorah, "When I take the Seven Kingdoms, I need you by my side." Notice she doesn't say "when I rule." Presumably once the seven kingdoms are "taken," something innovative can be done. I can absolutely see Tyrion setting up a system with some element of democracy, like a central government with representatives or parliament. If Daenerys dies, Tyrion can do that without her, perhaps with all eyes on Daenerys's child as a future leader.

In predicting how the final events play out, we can think about each character's special powers:


Jon - selflessness, personal sacrifice, dragon-riding (trust me)
Daenerys - fire immunity, dragon-riding, commanding/inspiring
Bran - being omniscient and warging and stuff
Arya - disguising herself and assassinating folks
Sam - maester knowledge
Sansa - political strategy
Jaime - military strategy
Tyrion - political & military strategy, dragon-riding (I'd bet on it)


Daenerys, Bran, and Arya have actual supernatural powers, so I feel like they're the ones to watch in the final battles. There's definitely going to be a scene where Dany is trapped by the dead and one of her dragons burns the whole area and she survives, right? Bran has to warg into a dragon at some point, right? And Arya... oh boy. She could slay a number of dudes. I'm picturing that one Godfather montage, but it's her in every scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on March 16, 2019, 01:19:52 PM
That made me more excited then the trailer!

I started to rewatch season 6 and 7 as well. It would be interesting to see the final battle in episode 5 with the final episode being a epilogue of sort.

1. They win against the white walkers.
2. Rebuilding of the world begins.
3. Daenerys at the throne "breaks the wheel", but dies in childbirth. Things are getting better.
4. However, we see the child grow up to be a complete monster.
5. The child, old now, sitting at the throne while being the worst possible ruler you can imagine.
6. We are kind of back at where we started. Nothing has changed, The Game Of Thrones begins again.
7. The End.

Hehe...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on March 16, 2019, 01:29:59 PM
^ And cue the spin offs
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on March 16, 2019, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: WorldForgot on March 16, 2019, 01:29:59 PM
^ And cue the spin offs

Exactly.

Maybe Tyrion/someone could be appointed the new leader after the death of Daenerys. Then the child grows up and wants to rebel, because he believes he should be on the throne instead.

Something like that, idk...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 16, 2019, 02:17:33 PM
Along those lines, I can see Cersei and Daenerys's new children growing up and having a kind of epic rivalry, and forces clash again. I really don't want that to happen, though.

We know the ending is going to be "bittersweet," but how pessimistic is GRRM about the future of this world? How much does he believe the cycle will continue? Does all the suffering in this story earn an optimistic ending?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on March 16, 2019, 02:30:29 PM
I'm all for unhappy endings, but with this I would love to see the opposite. This world is going to hell, so it would nice with some optimism...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 19, 2019, 01:06:45 AM
Finished Season 6. I can pretty confidently say it's not the best season after all. That should probably go to Season 4 or 7... or maybe 8. Unfortunately Season 6 simply does not stand out much except for the final 2 episodes and "The Door."

Which is not to say I'm short on superlatives. "The Winds of Winter" has got to be the best episode of the series. I can't even imagine anything in the final season surpassing it. The opening 16 minutes is still absolutely jaw-dropping (16 straight minutes!), and the whole episode is just filled with beauty and lovingly-crafted touches and perfect lighting and truly inspired shots. Sapochnik set a bar that seems almost impossible to reach (except perhaps by himself in Season 8). The difference between Sapochnik's episodes and 604 for example is... stark.

"The Battle of the Bastards" is among the best too, of course. The opening in Meereen and the battle are both just incredible. There are some awkward scenes that hold it back, though. Including the pre-war stuff with Sansa.

Can we account for Sansa keeping that secret? I can speculate that she stayed silent out of shame (didn't want Jon to know she was seeking Littlefinger's help) or resentment (she seems to keep the secret because Jon didn't ask for her help or advice). But no, I can't really account for it, because those reasons are not good enough. It was an outright mistake. Possibly one of her dumbest mistakes ever. Sansa calls it exactly that in the next episode and apologizes. Jon follows up saying they need to trust each other — suggesting the writers believe Sansa kept that secret because she didn't trust Jon to do the right thing with that information.

But my goodness, Sapochnik knows how to get the best performances out of Sophie Turner. She is incredible at the end of "Bastards" and actually just as good in "Winds."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on March 19, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on March 19, 2019, 01:06:45 AM
Which is not to say I'm short on superlatives. "The Winds of Winter" has got to be the best episode of the series. I can't even imagine anything in the final season surpassing it. The opening 16 minutes is still absolutely jaw-dropping (16 straight minutes!), and the whole episode is just filled with beauty and lovingly-crafted touches and perfect lighting and truly inspired shots. Sapochnik set a bar that seems almost impossible to reach (except perhaps by himself in Season 8). The difference between Sapochnik's episodes and 604 for example is... stark.

But my goodness, Sapochnik knows how to get the best performances out of Sophie Turner. She is incredible at the end of "Bastards" and actually just as good in "Winds."

Completely agree, winds is just incredible, every scene with Cersei or that she was involved in was just perfect, those 16 minutes you mentioned are up until the sept explodes and Cersei sips her wine, I would include her meeting with Septa Unella and her confession 'under the right circumstances', her vengeance was perfect, it's very Walter White-ish because even if her victory was massive it came with a terrible price with Tommen's suicide.

The other stand out scene for me is Arya killing Frey.


So, as far as predictions I think this could happen:


- I would bet money Sansa lives
- Pretty sure Jon dies heroically and Arya probably too
- Bran, I have no clue what will happen with him, but I agree that he will warg into a dragon to save the day
- Cersei will have one last massive victory, only to lose everything later
- Jamie, difficult to predict, he can't properly fight so in a battle he has a huge disadvantage, on the other hand someone could save him
- Dany will seat at the iron throne, it'll be bittersweet besause she'll lose Jon and probably Jorah
- Melisandre, I wish to see her do something incredible, fingers crossed.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on March 21, 2019, 04:30:32 PM
The Door was even better then I remembered it. had me crying like a child just now, lol

We are all talking about who will live and end up on the throne, but I'm thinking we'll get at least a couple of more "holy shit"-payoffs and twists in the end. the night king will probably talk , and we'll learn about his motives. Could it be one of the bigger holy shit-moments in the show? Also there has to be something more to Bran's time traveling. I mean, in the end of The Door the three eyed raven tells him that he's not ready yet. he has to fuck it up somehow, right? the mad king's "burn them all"-theory is fun and make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 21, 2019, 05:14:02 PM
I am very excited for time travel and butterfly effects and time loops. I want it. But I'm pretending it won't happen because I don't want to be disappointed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on March 22, 2019, 09:21:15 PM
Watch out for spoilers, I've heard some spoilers have been popping up around the net.

I've been flicking through the books again and rewatching some episodes. I still think the show massively declined after the end of season 4 but I'm still excited for this final season. I can't decide if I like season 5 or 7 least. As mentioned earlier, 6 is largely elevated by some really exciting episodes. 

As much as I dislike where some of the later episodes went, I actually wish D&D rejected GRRM's outline and went where their story wants to take them. Make the strongest work they can make based on the characters they've developed (show Jon isn't book Jon etc). They've diverged heavily enough from the story, why not make it an entirely separate work with its own ending?

I've only been into the books for a little while so I haven't endured the wait hardcore fans have but I'm keeping faith, really hoping that GRRM will get those books out. If he doesn't mess it up, The Winds of Winter has the potential to be the best work in the entire franchise. The set-ups, the plot threads, cliffhangers are pretty crazy; no wonder serious fans are upset with the delays.
For those who have liked the show and want a bit more, I do recommend the books. It's hugely entertaining with a lot of depth. The first 3 books are quick page turners with the later books becoming dense and character-heavy (in a good way).
The show is missing some really cool characters and plotlines, which is understandable but it's unfortunate we never got to see how the show would approach them. I'm certain at least one major character/plotline has been absorbed into 2 or 3 main characters.

BOOK SPOILERS

Spoiler: ShowHide
On this read, the later chapters on the wall have been a real favourite of mine. Due to the presence of the Alys Karstark storyline, Stannis's knights and the wildlings, they're a lot less desolate than the Wall scenes in the show but just as stressful as you really get an understanding of Jon's struggle to work through the politics so he can focus on the WW. What's cool about this part of the story is that Jon is (unknowingly) more or less King of the Wall- he is the leader of the NW and he has thousands of Wildlings sworn to him. This makes me think (and hope) that Jon doesn't become KitN but a King of Winter/Mance Rayder type figure while Sansa/Bran/Rickon become the master of the North/Winterfell. Also, I've become less enthusiastic about the inevitable Jon/Dany pairing, so best have him with the wildling Princess Val instead, which has been hinted at in the book. Of course, D&D have been following GRRM's key plot points so I won't get my hopes up.


We won't get a happy ending or a miserable ending but the bittersweet one that has been mentioned before. Which I believe is suitable for a series like this. A lot of fan favourites will die as expected. Judging by the director list, episodes 3 and 5 will be the huge ginormous action episodes with episode six being the coda/epilogue.

Other unadventurous, bordering on useless, predictions:
At least 3 out of 5 main/highest paid characters will die. I can't see Cersei or Jaime surviving, nor can I see both Jon and Dany surviving.
Bran will be the key to winning (time travel or not, I hope it doesn't devolve into Jon 1v1 the night king).
King's Landing will be destroyed.
Sam and Gilly live.
Sansa lives.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 31, 2019, 02:23:28 AM
Season 7 is pretty good so far...

It's definitely easier to catch the time jumps on rewatch. There are a lot of them. For example, Cersei slyly reveals to Jaime that she's made a new ally — cut to Euron's fleet arriving. Jaime and Cersei are outside watching them arrive. Clearly, a lot of time has probably passed. But we were not accustomed to seeing time jumps in the same location.

I will say that particular time jump is flawed, though. It would have us believe that Cersei did not reveal who the new ally was until they arrived. "Greyjoys? You invited the Greyjoys to King's Landing?" Jaime exclaims.

Ep 1 is good (though worryingly similar to the S6 baseline). Ep 2 continues the table-setting with the added benefit of several spectacular scenes, including Euron's naval combat and Sam's greyscale procedure (which is actually amazing).

Episode 3, "The Queen's Justice," is where the season really begins to shine. Jon's arrival at Dragonstone is just pitch-perfect. Every scene. The degree of difficulty there is significant, and they really pulled it off. Cersei's scene with Ellaria in the dungeon is breathtaking; a worthy successor to the Septa Unella scene. This episode is so magnificently written and performed. Dany and Jon's very first one-on-one scene turns to a surprisingly heartfelt place and definitely shows early signs of a developing chemistry. Watch the last thing Dany does in that scene, actually — as Jon walks away, she looks at him almost girlishly, like "hmm he's very interesting..." Kinda funny.

Then we get Olenna's hardcore goodbye. We never see her body, so I'm sure there are some Olenna truthers out there. Would she have an antidote? We never saw the Blackfish's body, either — in fact our knowledge of his death was extremely second-hand. That's at least two major characters deaths that happen off-screen in the last couple seasons.

Random note — Melisandre tells Varys: "No, I will return, dear spider, one last time [to Westeros]. I have to die in this strange country, just like you." Followed by a very ominous music cue. But really, what does that tell us? Varys dies in Westeros? Okay, that could be 30 years from now for all we know. But Melisandre's spooky charm works on Varys, just like it works on us. Is every red priestess required to exit a conversation with a frightening personal prophecy? They're dropping mics everywhere they go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 02, 2019, 01:21:24 AM
704 - The Spoils of War. A tight episode that is fully character-driven and gets through a lot of exposition in a natural way. Impressive. And fun. And THEN it finishes with Daenerys's attack on the caravan. I have to say, I believe this is the most beautifully crafted battle scene in the show's run so far. I think it edges out Battle of the Bastards.

705 - Eastwatch. The streak continues. Great stuff. The lesser episodes of Season 6 felt at times like they were working their way through plot, but in Season 7 you can feel the writers relishing every scene and every moment. It's just plain FUN.

Jon meeting Drogon for the first time, up close, is an awe-inspiring and strangely moving scene. And good lord, that dragon CGI is next-level. Totally and utterly convincing. The best they've ever done.

Gendry's scenes got me choked up. I actually kinda wouldn't mind if he ended up on the throne.

Daenerys is crushing on Jon so hard right now. When he leaves for Eastwatch, she basically says "I like you" and bats her eyelashes at him. Aggressively.

When Arya observes Sansa being grilled, and the bannermen are kind of trash-talking Jon, Arya looks on and eagerly waits to see how Sansa responds. Sansa's response is good — she steers them back toward loyalty to Jon. We see Arya's reaction; she visibly breathes a sigh of relief. She approves, it seems. Sansa has kind of passed her test already. But then a switch happens. In the very next scene, Arya's opinion of Sansa has precipitously soured. Since it's too early for them to be playing Littlefinger, I think Arya might be testing Sansa here and playing games with her.

706 - Beyond The Wall. I think you could credibly say that Arya is still toying with Sansa and seeing how she responds to pressure. She's getting the measure of Sansa, and needlessly antagonizing her, and sort of training her, much like the waif did to Arya. Maybe this comparison is a stretch, but I see it. I do think Arya's feeling of moral superiority is real, and I think we do see it genuinely shattered a bit when Sansa credibly challenges her.

Tyrion's argumentative scene with Daenerys is a misfire. One of the few actual misfires of this season, I'd argue. It starts out fine, but Tyrion's circular rhetoric is so clunky that it crumbles and turns into mush. Why do they have to speak with such formal language, like they're in a council meeting and every word is being recorded? These are two people who have already been through a lot together, and no one else is in the room. Can't they just TALK? Are they really still so uncomfortable with each other? This is truly nonsense, and I hope it doesn't continue in Season 8.

Caveat/counterpoint: Dany's coldness with Tyrion is a useful contrast to her warmth with Jon.

For some actual heart-to-heart real talk that is still well-spoken and full of meaning, see the Magnificent Seven as they embark on their quest.

They do a lot in this ep to establish that we won't need to kill the entire army of the dead to defeat them. Jon hypothesizes that if you kill a white walker, all the dead that specific white walker has turned will fall as well. This is pretty much immediately accepted as fact by the group, which is our cue to do the same. Beric then points to the night king and says "kill him, he turned them all." One single dragonglass-tipped arrow could win the whole thing.

When Sansa seeks advice from Littlefinger (red flag already btw) I am even more convinced that she's already playing him at this point (though probably NOT with Arya's cooperation yet). As I said when this aired, notice that Littlefinger gets zero new information from her in this meeting, but she gets loads of new information out of him. In particular, that he is scheming to take Arya out of the picture and would use Brienne to do it. Within the space of this scene, she plays up her fear of Arya to get him to that point. Sansa would of course react in horror to this outrageous and violent suggestion, but she goes cold. Watch the profile shot of her face. That expression to me says "dang, he actually went there." In the VERY next scene at Winterfell, Sansa sends Brienne away. She does so with absolutely no hesitation, clearly having no interest in enlisting Brienne protect her against Arya or whatnot. On the contrary, I believe she's sending Brienne away specifically to undermine Littlefinger's plan. And in this scene, Sansa seems 100% assured of her own safety. It's actually kind of remarkable.

I understand why Jon takes a while getting on the dragon — that's Jon being Jon. But I still do not understand why Benjen suicides.

The boat scene with Jon and Dany ("my queen") is legitimately one of the BEST and most emotional scenes in Game of Thrones history. Top ten, easily. I don't know what kind of magic had to coalesce for it to be so perfect, but good God it certainly is. One of Emilia Clarke's finest moments.

I remember what a masterpiece the next episode is, so I think I can confidently say Season 7 > Season 6.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 02, 2019, 11:37:55 PM
707 - The Dragon and the Wolf

This blew my head right off, just as much as it did the first time I saw it. Wow. It's an episode almost completely devoid of "action" that manages to be more exciting than several "battle" episodes put together. There is not another episode of this show that is so generously filled with explosive character scenes, one after the other, executed perfectly. This is exactly the kind of episode that makes me say "we don't deserve this show."

Season 4 is probably the best season. Hard to dispute that. But Season 7 is the most soulful. And I won't hear otherwise. My gushing about Season 6 (when it aired) seems so naive now — it's clear that they stepped it up significantly for 7. The show is absolutely on fire this season.

It fares even better on rewatch, too. The only time jump I even noticed was the one I described earlier (which happens in the imperfect Ep 1, best viewed as a warmup). The breakneck pace seems completely natural, too.

Sansa's indictment of Littlefinger is really interesting. It makes me wonder when the ruse began. Perhaps quite early. This is the giveaway — "What's the worst reason you have for turning me against my sister? That's what you do, isn't it? That's what you've always done. Turn family against family, turn sister against sister [...] That's what you tried to do to us." If Sansa was smart, she would have caught on, at the very latest, in the scene that included his Brienne suggestion. What's unclear to me is when Arya got on the same page — probably during the deleted scene with Bran.

In any case, Sansa and Arya's reconciliation atop Winterfell is somehow even more satisfying than Littlefinger's execution.

Jon and Daenerys's budding romance is super obvious on rewatch. They really give it four full episodes to develop (4 through 7). Daenerys simply does not interact like that with ANYONE else. Jon brings out a warmth from her. She bares her soul. It's really kind of intense stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 02, 2019, 11:38:44 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 02, 2019, 01:21:24 AM
They do a lot in this ep to establish that we won't need to kill the entire army of the dead to defeat them. Jon hypothesizes that if you kill a white walker, all the dead that specific white walker has turned will fall as well. This is pretty much immediately accepted as fact by the group, which is our cue to do the same. Beric then points to the night king and says "kill him, he turned them all." One single dragonglass-tipped arrow could win the whole thing.

Yes, in a way it should be 'easy' to kill him, you instruct every single man able to shoot an arrow and throw thousands at him and he most certainly falls, only problem is he's riding in a fucking dragon, still I think the night king will fall, and then all the attention will go to fight Cersei, or so that's my guessing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 03, 2019, 01:12:05 PM


Spoiler: ShowHide
She pull it off so well...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 03, 2019, 02:49:58 PM
Oh man. Now I have to trust myself not to click that.

Maybe we should keep Season 8 spoilers out of the thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 03, 2019, 02:52:18 PM
It was an April Fools prank, and Jimmy's "acting" immediately gives it away.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 14, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
Interesting article about the politics of fantasy and Westeros:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/04/game-thrones-and-trope-authoritarian-heroes-daenerys-targaryen-jon-snow-tolkien-aragorn/586957/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 14, 2019, 08:28:59 PM
That premiere is...not good. Halfway through...
The best ones were thin but atmospheric, this one is thin and vulgar. All the scenes are awkward.

SPOILERS

Jon riding the dragon, what we knew would happen, had such a weak execution...it looked like a bad romcom...with dragons...

Kit Harington is a bad actor and that's an issue now that he has to play with other characters. His scene with Arya was akward. Yeah, they've played together ten years ago...There's no chemistry between them. It's weird. I'm supposed to like the scene because it was expected? Just because of its outline?

Having all the characters at the same place is bad if they're just wandering around, waiting...

Was I the only one to notice makeup issues? Especially with Sansa.

I don't worry about episodes looking bad now, though. They're keeping all the money—and the best directors—for the end.

I liked Jaime seeing Brann, that was the first time I felt something: I don't understand why the episode had to end at the first interesting scene...

God. That was bad.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 14, 2019, 09:17:11 PM
I didn't enjoy the jokes and all the humour. It felt out of place, like it was just another normal day. It didn't feel like doom was waiting around the corner.

Overall I enjoyed it, though. The Arya and Jon reunion was great. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 14, 2019, 09:25:43 PM
SPOILERS

There's absolutely no dramatic tension. They'll fight the Walkers. Cersei will do some backstabbing. Six episodes is a lot for what's left since there's no life...They had to break the momentum of the last season finale. I have no idea what's gonna happen next week—not in a good way...

Why are they so scared to do crazy shit? Instead, they're giving us what a random Redditor could have written.

Also: stop with the whores. It seriously just looks life soft porn. They're paying actresses to do that shit. Why? For whom? That's awfully dumb. At least, don't shoot them like it's fucking PornHub. I'm rewatching Deadwood so I know that HBO used to know how to shoot nudity.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on April 14, 2019, 09:40:32 PM
Why doesn't anyone ask Bran about everything?

He could really help out with this war and political stuff. But then again, the writers dropped the ball with Bran in Winterfell last season as well.

EDIT:

His sudden 'the night king has your dragon' was pretty amusing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 14, 2019, 09:44:10 PM
Quote from: Lottery on April 14, 2019, 09:40:32 PM
Why doesn't anyone ask Bran about everything?

He could really help out with this war and political stuff. But then again, the writers dropped the ball with Bran in Winterfell last season as well.

A) Because he's an asshole and people don't like talking to him.

Or

B) Because it doesn't matter: he'll warg with a dragon and it will be cool. (Will it be cool? Yes.)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on April 14, 2019, 10:59:04 PM
The most relatable and humanizing Cersei moment in the entire series was how disappointed she was not to get to see elephants.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on April 15, 2019, 05:10:53 PM
Yowza, tough crowd. I thought it was pretty great as far as premieres go. I loved how cyclical it was, harkening back to the beginning on so many fronts including the ending with Bran confronting Jamie (I didn't connect this dot until reading a review, but Bran mentioning in an earlier scene that he was 'waiting for an old friend' was so haunting/awesome in retrospect).

We've been waiting so many years for these characters with desperate narratives to reunite, and I'd say almost every one was cathartic (some more than others of course). My favorite was Arya and Jon, followed by Sansa and Tyrion. I also loved how Arya smiled when she saw the dragons.

It seems the battle with the White Walkers is coming as soon as next episode. How many episodes do you think it'll last? Because at some point what's left of Jon/Dany's army has to go face Cersei, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: wilberfan on April 15, 2019, 07:01:07 PM
I gave up a season and a half or so ago (I could no longer keep track of who was pissed at who and why), but thought I'd come back for these last eps.   I had a recap open in front of me, so it was much easier to stay involved.  Not even close to a fan, but I thought it was fine.   And, yes, I jumped at Spiral Kid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2019, 07:08:13 PM
Quote from: ©brad on April 15, 2019, 05:10:53 PMYowza, tough crowd. I thought it was pretty great as far as premieres go.

I know, right? Are people just hate-watching this show now? Maybe this is a personal failing on my part, but I'm at the point where I read or hear criticisms and simply can't connect those words to the reality of what I saw. It's surprising how many people have completely soured on the series. Which I assume happened several seasons ago for a lot of them.

Literally every season of Game of Thrones begins the same way, with a lot of people being confused/dismayed that there's so much table setting in Episode 1. That's just how a season of this show works. That's how it's always structured. And it was done beautifully here. This was distinctly more entertaining than 701, I'd say.

I really loved this episode. It feels somewhat like a continuation of "The Dragon and the Wolf" — characters experiencing and discovering things for the first time and reuniting after ages apart, done through weighty scenes, executed brilliantly one after another, with the heaviest lifting often done wordlessly.

The opening march through the North reminded me why this is a great show. To take just one example from that sequence... Arya seeing dragons for the first time and being deviously thrilled. Can you even imagine what she's thinking?

The other highlight for me was Sam's encounter with Daenerys (which cleverly denies us the expected payoff, then delivers one that's much darker) and his followup talk with Jon. Christ, what a pair of scenes that was.

I'll have more thoughts later, I'm sure.


Quote from: Drenk on April 14, 2019, 09:25:43 PMThere's absolutely no dramatic tension. They'll fight the Walkers. Cersei will do some backstabbing. Six episodes is a lot for what's left since there's no life..

How did you get your hands on the Season 8 scripts?! I wasn't aware that anything had leaked! Just don't post the links here and don't talk about future spoilers please. Even though the plot of this season sounds utterly predictable from what you're saying, I'd rather not know.

In all seriousness, do you actually sincerely not expect any surprises from this season? Of Game of Thrones? How much of last season did you accurately predict? I couldn't have dreamed up half of the weird, crazy things that happened in Season 7.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 03:40:31 AM
We're clearly witnessing different realities. I said that I began to strongly dislike the show during season 5. Season 7 had great action moments and the fan fiction element was fun to witness. But now...Cersei became a cliché of who Cersei is. Jon has always been boring as hell, books and show. There's nothing for me to care. They're waiting for a battle or some backstabbing. But what's really difficult? Strange? Sansa being angry like a teenager? I don't care about surprises. That's never been why I love this world and loved this show. But with five episodes left, I'll watch all of it, yes.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 16, 2019, 06:45:49 AM
Quote from: ©brad on April 15, 2019, 05:10:53 PM
Yowza, tough crowd. I thought it was pretty great as far as premieres go. I loved how cynical it was, harkening back to the beginning on so many fronts including the ending with Bran confronting Jamie (I didn't connect this dot until reading a review, but Bran mentioning in an earlier scene that he was 'waiting for an old friend' was so haunting/awesome in retrospect).

We've been waiting so many years for these characters with desperate narratives to reunite, and I'd say almost every one was cathartic (some more than others of course). My favorite was Arya and Jon, followed by Sansa and Tyrion. I also loved how Arya smiled when she saw the dragons.

It seems the battle with the White Walkers is coming as soon as next episode. How many episodes do you think it'll last? Because at some point what's left of Jon/Dany's army has to go face Cersei, right?

I expect the final battle to start towards the end of the next episode and then last for two episodes.

It will be very entertaining and fun, but what will happen after that? That's the most interesting part left imo. At the end of this I don't think the main characters will be the hero's we expect them to be. It will become very complicated as soon as they've defeated Cersei and the White Walkers. The circumstances in this world and their journeys will have turned them into the same "bad guys" we saw in the start of the show. Daenerys is already ruthless as hell. She didn't even blink an eye while telling Sam about his dead family.

Perhaps Jon Snow will eventually turn on her and perhaps Daenerys will kill him for not being loyal and not bending the knee. She has to do something drastic for the viewers to look at her as the villian. She started of with good intentions, but I think that have changed along the way. Thev'e hinted about it. And she hasn't talked about "breaking the wheel" for a long time.

We expect Jon Snow to do the Hero's Journey, but I don't think it'll be that straightforward. He might kill the Night King but I don't think he'll survive long after that. This world is too cruel for the good guys to win.

That might leave Sansa in the north with another family member dead and who knows what will happen after that. They've talked about how she admires Cersei at some level. Hmm, hmm...

I want Jamie to be the hero we didn't know we needed! He has one of the best story arcs imo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 16, 2019, 06:54:29 AM
I think there's time for it. The last two episodes will be 1 hour 20 minutes each. A lot of things could happen in these episodes with faster pacing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 08:13:20 AM
I can bet on a Sansa/Cersei alliance (with Jon dead) against Daenerys (Daenerys dies). With Sansa killing Cersei at the end before Cersei does the first move.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 16, 2019, 10:57:46 AM
speculation: ShowHide

You might be on to something there. I don't really want either Jon or Dany to "win" as both are kinda boring and for either one to win wouldn't really be in-keeping with GOT's reputation for subverting the genre. If both die, is the Targaryen lineage over? So we'd be looking to the Lannister lineage for continuity? I'm Team Cersei all the way, but there's no way she's going to make it to the end. Jamie would then be "next in line to the throne," right? Is a Sansa-Jamie marriage/alliance a possibility? Probably not with the Bran factor, right? So maybe Jamie dies too and the throne passes by right to Tyrion, but he abdicates in favor of Sansa and Arya...? It would be cool for the series to end with Arya having the title The Queen Slayer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2019, 11:28:06 AM
Quote from: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 08:13:20 AMI can bet on a Sansa/Cersei alliance (with Jon dead) against Daenerys (Daenerys dies). With Sansa killing Cersei at the end before Cersei does the first move.

This is a strangely compelling theory. I don't think it's happening, though.

Sansa has a lot of good reasons to be wary and distrustful of Daenerys right now, based on what she knows and what she's seen. (As D&D say, these characters are not watching the show.) None of the Northerners really know Daenerys's story, nor do these naturally distrustful people have any particular reason to trust her. So Sansa's current disposition is completely reasonable.

You say she's "being angry like a teenager," but I think her position is pretty reasonable from her POV. (And I think she still is a teenager.) She doesn't even distrust Daenerys half as much as other Northerners. Much of her annoyance is practical and eye-rolly. ("What do dragons eat, anyway?") I did not catch even a whiff of a hint that Sansa is anti-Daenerys enough to actually conspire against her.

What I see being telegraphed in the show right now is that Sansa simply doesn't know Daenerys well enough. It's going to be an arc. I'm interested to see what persuades her.

Sansa makes a convincing case (to Tyrion) in this ep that Cersei can't be trusted. We also get a bit from Arya about Sansa's family loyalty. Jon would indeed have to die for Sansa to betray that loyalty. Daenerys would also have to do some really terrible things and NOT prove herself vs. the dead. Sansa would have to entertain the idea of allying with Cersei (not just fighting alongside, but actually allying), which would simply not happen — for deeply personal reasons, and because of Arya, who, remember, has a collaborative relationship with Sansa at this point.

Maybe this is too basic, but think of it this way. Sansa is one of the smartest characters in the show now. She's going to figure Daenerys out, and that's a good thing. In what universe is Daenerys a greater threat to Sansa and Winterfell than Cersei? On the contrary, Daenerys is so obviously Sansa's ticket to defeating Cersei once and for all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 16, 2019, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: Sleepless on April 16, 2019, 10:57:46 AM
speculation: ShowHide

You might be on to something there. I don't really want either Jon or Dany to "win" as both are kinda boring and for either one to win wouldn't really be in-keeping with GOT's reputation for subverting the genre. If both die, is the Targaryen lineage over? So we'd be looking to the Lannister lineage for continuity? I'm Team Cersei all the way, but there's no way she's going to make it to the end. Jamie would then be "next in line to the throne," right? Is a Sansa-Jamie marriage/alliance a possibility? Probably not with the Bran factor, right? So maybe Jamie dies too and the throne passes by right to Tyrion, but he abdicates in favor of Sansa and Arya...? It would be cool for the series to end with Arya having the title The Queen Slayer.


Speculations:
Spoiler: ShowHide
It would feel very GoT if Dany turned out to be bad, though.  Imagine if Dany turn out to be horrible, kills Jon and then "win" as the villain. That would feel awful for many of us, considering we've been rooting for her since the beginning. And Jon isn't very lucky with love is he? Hehe.

Perhaps Dany kills Jon, Arya kills Dany? What will Aryas big moment be? I think Arya killing Cersei would be too straightforward/predictable as well. And the main characters dying in the battle wouldn't be shocking enough for GoT. The main characters turning on each other on the other hand...

What if Gendry end up as the King? If they decided to vote for it, who would the people vote on? Gendry grew up poor and knows the people of Kings Landing more than anyone else. I know who I'd vote for, lol.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2019, 12:06:37 PM
Quote from: Robyn on April 16, 2019, 06:45:49 AMPerhaps Jon Snow will eventually turn on her and perhaps Daenerys will kill him for not being loyal and not bending the knee. She has to do something drastic for the viewers to look at her as the villian. She started of with good intentions, but I think that have changed along the way. Thev'e hinted about it. And she hasn't talked about "breaking the wheel" for a long time.

I don't mean to be throwing so much cold water, but I think this is way off. Daenerys is hardly a monster. Her intentions have not changed. What we've been seeing is her METHODS (not intentions) clashing with Westerosi conventions. Her methods are that of a Targaryen — with a splash of Dothraki, honestly (a bit of an East-West culture clash) — combined with her own emancipation ideology.

Daenerys killed the Tarlys because she refuses to put people in chains. Prisoners of war are just not going to be a thing. After that battle, she offered her enemies a pretty reasonable choice. As I understand it, you don't even have to join her forces like the Dothraki and Unsullied did — you, as a solider, simply have to promise not to fight against her. Seems like a pretty fair deal after you've just lost a battle. The Tarlys essentially promised to remain her enemies. Randall Tarly was going to lead Jaime's army, remember. Daenerys was faced with the general of the opposing army standing there saying he was going to continue to fight against her. I would have roasted him too.

Daenerys clearly did so with some reluctance and significant frustration. In her meeting with Sam, she seemed a little defensive. She knows how bad it looks. These are simply NOT the characteristics of a "mad queen." I just don't think we're going in that direction.

Daenerys's current PR problem is just another in the long series of challenges she's faced. She had similar problems in Essos — for example when she crucified the masters, or when the dragons were out eating civilians.

Again, this is an arc. All of these pitfalls have been laid out, all these reservations, but that's the starting point. Certainly those challenges will continue as war fully breaks out. Daenerys might be forced to melt a castle or part of King's Landing, with civilian casualties ("how is she any better than Cersei?" etc.), but I definitely see this being an arc with something more heroic at the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 12:19:54 PM
My issue with Sansa doesn't concern her distrust of Daenerys but the way it was portrayed in the episode, she should be hiding her feelings and coldly observing: talking in private with Jon was enough.

Also, in my theory, Sansa goes with Cersei because Daenerys kills Jon. I don't think she'll accept that he's the legitimate heir. Sansa will have to be cynical.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2019, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: Sleepless on April 16, 2019, 10:57:46 AMYou might be on to something there. I don't really want either Jon or Dany to "win" as both are kinda boring and for either one to win wouldn't really be in-keeping with GOT's reputation for subverting the genre.

I've said something like this before, but I'll make the case again. I think this saga — not just the show but GRRM's story — has subverted conventions so that it can earn satisfying payoffs that are squarely in the fantasy genre. GRRM took issue with Tolkien's storytelling methods, but not where he was going with them. I think when you do the work and make your characters suffer the way he has, you earn an explosive ending that has the heart of a fulfilling epic fantasy story.

I don't think GRRM has done all that work just to troll people. He's done it to earn something.

There will be more suffering. And we'll see some truly horrible things. But in Seasons 7 and 8, I think we are clearly in the payoffs phase, reaping the rewards of everything we've been through.


Quote from: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 12:19:54 PMAlso, in my theory, Sansa goes with Cersei because Daenerys kills Jon. I don't think she'll accept that he's the legitimate heir. Sansa will have to be cynical.

How many times does Jon have to tell you that he doesn't want the crown? I don't understand the premise of your point here — do you expect Jon to pursue the throne? He doesn't want any of this nonsense. He's only ever taken on leadership positions insofar as it helps him rally people to defeat the dead. I don't think he much cares what happens politically after that. He probably doesn't even expect to survive the war.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 16, 2019, 12:37:13 PM
During her scene with Sam, you do see some empathy in her face underneath the surface.

I just don't want everyone to end up with basic hero arcs. I want some more unexpected twists and turns, and the characters not being the hero's we expected them to be would be an interesting route.  That it would just be good vs evil with the good side winning? Ugh... it just feels so boring.

It could go in many other directions too of course.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 12:47:10 PM
Oh, I do think that Jon learning that he's a Targaryen changes his perceptions about his duties and, hell, the way he sees himself. He could consider the Throne. Especially if Sansa pushes him, considering he's still "family". But Daenerys can also see him as a threat to *her* legitimacy. These are basic reasons: the path to an actual betrayal would be more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 16, 2019, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2019, 12:31:31 PM
How many times does Jon have to tell you that he doesn't want the crown? I don't understand the premise of your point here — do you expect Jon to pursue the throne? He doesn't want any of this nonsense.

No, but I think Dany has become so power mad that when she finds out the truth about Jon, she'll preemptively strike for fear of him making the claim - even though we know he likely never would.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2019, 02:14:58 PM
Quote from: Drenk on April 16, 2019, 12:47:10 PMOh, I do think that Jon learning that he's a Targaryen changes his perceptions about his duties and, hell, the way he sees himself. He could consider the Throne. Especially if Sansa pushes him, considering he's still "family". But Daenerys can also see him as a threat to *her* legitimacy. These are basic reasons: the path to an actual betrayal would be more complicated than that.

He swore an oath to Queen Daenerys, and very publicly. That's probably the "duty" and honor that's primarily important to Jon. Feeling a duty to take the throne is just not in the cards for him, I believe. Are you arguing that Jon cares about royal bloodlines? I don't think we've ever seen him express that ideology in the show. Has he ever even mentioned that Daenerys is thought to be the rightful heir to the throne? That's been one of her key selling points, but as far as I remember, he hasn't used it to convince people that she deserves the throne. Instead, he says (in this ep) that she'll be a good queen. That's what matters.

Likewise, I have zero expectation that the discovery of his heritage will inspire him that his greatest duty is to mutiny Daenerys and take the throne because... they're both Targaryens but he's a guy so the throne has to go to him? That's... that's just not happening.

I can certainly see Sansa finding out and then trying to persuade Jon to take more power. The advisors might suggest this marriage idea. Sansa could get involved. Daenerys has no reason to cede power, so there's room for conflict. Jon probably just wants to push aside all this nonsense and fight the dead.

I'll go back to my other point: Sansa is not an idiot. And the show very much wants us to know that. She's not going to encourage Jon to mutiny before they've even fought the army of the dead. And I'll predict that Daenerys will prove herself to Sansa very soon, hopefully taking the air out of any such schemes.

So what does this Targaryen revelation mean to Jon, actually? I imagine it must be empowering. Legitimizing. He was never a bastard. He is the descendant of incredibly powerful people, and I'm sure that does mean something to him, in a self-actualizing sense.

Season 7 shines because it was so true to its characters. And I feel that in this premiere, too. Which is to say, the show knows deeply who its characters are and what they want. Daenerys wants the throne. That's always been her thing. Jon wants to defeat the dead. That is his thing, so much so that he only fought for Winterfell (his home and potential seat of power) because it might get him to that goal. With five episodes left, these two central characters are not going to get their wires crossed and change their goals. Which is also to say, they know what each other want. Jon knows that Dany wants the throne, to her absolute core. He would be insane — on a practical level, and on an emotional level — to challenge her on that. Not to mention that it would be at the expense of everything he actually wants.

The more interesting question is how Daenerys processes the information. I don't really see him ruling at her side, a never-ending threat to her bloodline legitimacy. But I'm not entirely sure how important the bloodline is to her at this point. Clearly you can simply take the throne if you have enough power. That's what Cersei did, without a claim, and it's also sort of what Joffrey did (with Cersei's involvement as well). The bloodline has some importance among the common folk, but I'd say it makes enough sense to them that a Targaryen is coming back, not the exact right Targaryen who has a slightly better claim (putting gender aside, Dany is a more direct descendant). Which only even matters if the truth of Jon's parentage is publicly revealed.

Clearly the best solution is for Jon to die heroically and not even deal with any of the politics. That would be a fitting way for him to go.


Quote from: Sleepless on April 16, 2019, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 16, 2019, 12:31:31 PM
How many times does Jon have to tell you that he doesn't want the crown? I don't understand the premise of your point here — do you expect Jon to pursue the throne? He doesn't want any of this nonsense.

No, but I think Dany has become so power mad that when she finds out the truth about Jon, she'll preemptively strike for fear of him making the claim - even though we know he likely never would.

I think the revelation would rattle her for sure. It would be worrying, and a constant worry as long as he's around, no matter how many times he promises her he doesn't want to take her power.

I don't think she would straight-up assassinate him, though. That's nuts. I do NOT think Daenerys "has become so power mad." In fact, I'd say the text of what we see points us in the opposite direction — Dany has become more cautious and measured. For example, she barely needed any convincing from Tyrion to take the more humane route, to not melt King's Landing, and to not be "the queen of the ashes." Remember her conversation with Varys last season, when she asked him to openly and honestly advise her to keep her in check? Daenerys is anything but "power mad." She gets it.

Read about some of the absolutely brutal stuff Tywin Lannister used to do. Daenerys is a teddy bear in comparison. But people in Westeros viewed Tywin as a leader whose ruthlessness was practical. This is also a universe where the Boltons were allowed to hold power and ally with legitimate houses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on April 16, 2019, 07:32:57 PM
Sansa allying with Cersei at this point of the story is a bit hard to believe. She would have to really hate Daenerys.

I'm really starting to think that Bran knows the future more thoroughly than it appears- that would would explain his uselessness and his indifferent demeanour. Which means he simply lets things be and only steps in when he's supposed to in the timeline. He probably became aware of this fixed timeline business when Hodor died. And I've mentioned this earlier but Bran and the Night King are similar (many people think they're the same person, but I'm not sure about that) and they have similar powers, NK can warg the dead in a way and he may have used some future sight to prepare a trap to capture a dragon in the moronic beyond the wall episode. One of the main reasons I'm still watching is because I want to know why NK and the WW are doing what they're doing- have they been wronged, does NK want to change the future are they just rampant laser-focused killing machines etc. For now we have- the COTF transform a dude into a WW using dragonglass to fight for them and then he broke free from his programming. Which is a decent enough origin but I believe we were promised more.

Bran having Sam inform Jon about his heritage at this stage is pretty distracting. Only good reason Bran would want to do it at that time is because it's supposed to happen in the timeline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on April 17, 2019, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 06:39:59 PM
I want and expect them to go all the way down the rabbit hole and come out the other side. I've long felt that a major theme of the overarching story is that the events of history are essentially an immovable force, that the players of the game are more swept up in the wave than they actually affect it, despite all their vanities to the contrary. How perfect a culmination of that thesis would it be to discover in the end that the whole of this world's history is a closed causal loop?

I've been on the "time is a flat circle" train for years now. Everything happens as it happens because that's the way it was always going to happen. Bran, at this point, is basically Amy Adams at the end of Arrival.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 17, 2019, 09:08:42 PM
Let's call that the "Big Data" theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: SaunchSmilax on April 19, 2019, 01:20:31 AM
"Can Miss Cersei try to listen and understand what Mr. Tyrion is saying?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ppLtHbag4
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 21, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
Finally read all the posts, I'm on team JB here.

Pretty much agree with everything he says, the pay off of Dany winning the throne is a given, and certainly will come with a heavy price.

Jon doesn't give two shits about a having a crown.

Something curious I just thought of, of all the players fighting for the crown Cersei is the only one that doesn't actually fights, so how her demise could be? Getting caught is not a option, I think she rather poison herself than facing judgment by her enemies.
My feeling with her arc hasn't changed that much, I still think she will have a great victory but her defeat will come, remember that scene with the witch, she will have everything just to lose it all, she already has no relatives on her side, Euron hinted that he could betray her eventually and just wanted to fuck her which he already did, even Qyburn looked surprised that she was glad the dead had past the wall.


The best part of the episode was the ending, Jaime's facial expressions ranged from relived to be there to weird nostalgic happiness to OMFG he's here looking at me!


Small favor, I never watch the promos for the next episode, if you do and want to talk about it please label it as spoiler. Thanks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 21, 2019, 09:08:48 PM
Holy fucking shit, that was a good episode.

So many great moments. They nailed the dread, which I thought was lacking in the premiere. The wait... all these characters spending a night that could be their last. It was so good.

Didn't like the way the Sansa/Dany and the Dany/Jon scene ended. But yeah, cliffhangers... everything else was fantastic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 21, 2019, 10:41:37 PM
I'm on team Fernando. Please do NOT talk about the "next week" previews without warning. I don't watch them either. (If someone did, I'm thankful that I forgot.)

That said, spoilers for Ep 2 which just aired...

This was a very weird episode, in my opinion. But suitably so. This is a very weird time in everyone's lives, sitting in Winterfell, nervously waiting for potential doom. And we got some excellent scenes out of it. I hope those who felt Season 7 was rushed appreciate the breathing room in these first two episodes.

Dany's scene with Sansa felt awkward and forced, but I think those feelings are diegetic. Dany is trying to force a reconciliation in a way that's a bit rushed and doesn't entirely work, as we see with the end of that scene. But Dany makes some good points, and the fact that she's reaching out clearly means a lot to Sansa. It completely makes sense as a starting point for their relationship. It's possible that Dany will win over Sansa, who will also gain a new perspective after the fight with the dead. But now, after this scene, I'd say it's MORE likely that Daenerys compromises and lets the Starks have sovereignty—especially if Jon makes a point of not contesting Dany's claim to the throne. That could be a tidy agreement.

Arya hooking up with Gendry was widely predicted by fans, but wow that was fast. And quite weird, because Arya seems both not human enough and not old enough.

Favorite scenes:

- Sansa's emotional reunion with Theon (made me cry instantly)
- Brienne being knighted (her smile at the end!)
- Sam giving his sword to Jorah (solid GoT symmetry points here)
- Jaime and Bran (pitch-perfect)

Now for quibbles:

Emilia Clarke's acting was a little strange in this episode. Perhaps that's because her character was in an awkward place. I don't know. She set the bar very high late last season and has not had similar such moments to shine in Season 8 thusfar.

The cliffhanger from the crypt scene ("you'd have a claim to the iron throne") totally broke the fourth wall for me. We know you're cutting it off there to preserve that undercurrent of tension, show. Stop it. Caveat: when Dany says "that's impossible," Jon says "I wish it were," signaling that he's not all that enthusiastic about the implications.

The opening scene with Daenerys berating Jaime rang just a bit false. Maybe it's being done as a political show, but she seems a little too sincere about things she doesn't really believe, as far as I know. Doesn't she actually believe Jaime was right to slay the mad king? Why does she cite her monstrous brother as a reference there? Daenerys has plenty of reason to distrust Jaime, of course, but I don't think that was expressed properly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on April 21, 2019, 11:42:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/4BGy0Gv.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 22, 2019, 08:57:40 AM
Has there been a backlash to that scene? I've seen a few comments like "It was awkward to see the person that was once a child for so long naked", which are completely ridiculous... it was shoot in the least shocking way possible.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 22, 2019, 02:05:56 PM
Well, I mostly loved this episode. Full of atmospheric, emotional scenes with characters quietly waiting for their death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 22, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
The episode has more impact in retrospect for that reason. I'm thinking about how many of these characters are going to die or be turned, very very soon. Many of these scenes are goodbye scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 22, 2019, 07:08:24 PM
Yeah, I loved this one, for sure the farewell episode for many secondary characters, I don't think main ones will perish in this battle, although it depends how everything goes, also this battle probably lasts more than one episode?

I loved Jaime's 'reception', he actually defended himself pretty good, it gave me chills when Bran said 'the things we do for love' interrupting/completing what he was saying at the right time which turned out to be true, but also and only Jaime understood what it really meant. And of course, Brienne vouching for him was emotional.

I wonder if what Bran told Jaime at the tree meant that he won't make it after the battle. He says 'how do you know there is an afterwards'. I know it sounds like he means everyone could be gone, but it also feels like he could be talking about him.
Maybe Jaime could be one of the main characters to go in this battle...I hope not.

I saw the episode again and Arya was eyeing Gendry form the start, when she proves she can throw arrow heads like a boss, she was like hmm maybe later.


Also, if almost the whole north is there, shouldn't Meera Reed be there? I don't know if D&D just eliminated the character or if she will appear later, but she could fight, she is useful now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 22, 2019, 07:52:49 PM
Quote from: Fernando on April 22, 2019, 07:08:24 PM
Yeah, I loved this one, for sure the farewell episode for many secondary characters, I don't think main ones will perish in this battle, although it depends how everything goes, also this battle probably lasts more than one episode?

The next episode will be 82 minutes long.
I've been thinking about the length and the outcome too. One or the other must be losing in this battle, right? There's nowhere to escape.... I guess a few character could escape with the dragons, but where would they head after that? With no army and all... the Iron Islands?
And it's too far to the sea.

Also, it's the army of dead and they don't need to eat, sleep, etc... they won't stop until someone has won.
I don't see an outcome where the battle stops and then continues again.

It seems possible that it will last until episode 4. Maybe next episode will end when all hope seems lost. That would be an awful wait, lol.

Quote from: Fernando on April 22, 2019, 07:08:24 PM
I loved Jaime's 'reception', he actually defended himself pretty good, it gave me chills when Bran said 'the things we do for love' interrupting/completing what he was saying at the right time which turned out to be true, but also and only Jaime understood what it really meant. And of course, Brienne vouching for him was emotional.

I wonder if he will do something more "for love"? Perhaps saving Brienne in the battle? They are fighting on the same flank after all. I expecting one of them dead in the next episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 23, 2019, 05:36:48 PM
https://twitter.com/reallyhalalfood/status/1120437099403018240

:yabbse-grin:

Yes, this was a very bad scene, acting-wise, for her: but I liked the scene, writing-wise.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 26, 2019, 12:14:29 AM
Not sure if I've been this hyped for a television episode before.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on April 26, 2019, 02:34:48 PM
Quote from: Robyn on April 26, 2019, 12:14:29 AM
Not sure if I've been this hyped for a television episode before.

Haha I'm excited too. I'm actually more nervous than excited, because I feel it will be a blood bath. I can't believe a TV show can actually cause such dread. Breaking Bad used to do it too, especially towards the end.

Btw, am I the only one who thinks the Night King is a lame villain? Part of me is just wanting to get this WW battle over with so we can move onto the war with Cersie, whom I find much more terrifying.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 26, 2019, 02:55:18 PM
Quote from: ©brad on April 26, 2019, 02:34:48 PMBtw, am I the only one who thinks the Night King is a lame villain? Part of me is just wanting to get this WW battle over with so we can move onto the war with Cersie, whom I find much more terrifying.

I mean, he's not a conventional villain though, right? So should we really apply the same standards of villain evaluation? I actually strongly like the idea of an enemy that's a largely unknowable force of nature. The Night King is not really a character, he's the incarnation of a concept.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 26, 2019, 03:00:03 PM
I want some sort of flashback/hallucination with Bran and the Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 28, 2019, 09:24:41 PM
Not a fan at all. I feared an episode like that.

I didn't like it at all, but I loved the scene where Arya was hiding in the library. The last scene looked great, too, even if I don't get why Melissandre is doing that but whatever.

And I liked Sansa and Tyrion. I wish Daenerys and Jon had died. They were ridiculous in that episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on April 28, 2019, 10:05:39 PM
Terrible. If GRRM writes something similar to this in the final books, he will be a failure forever. If this is the endpoint of all this WW/CotF business, it wasn't worth it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 28, 2019, 10:18:21 PM
Really? Yikes, I might have to step out of this thread.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 28, 2019, 10:26:11 PM
Quote from: Lottery on April 28, 2019, 10:05:39 PM
Terrible. If GRRM writes something similar to this in the final books, he will be a failure forever. If this is the endpoint of all this WW/CotF business, it wasn't worth it.

Even with Dance, I have no doubt that the books will be entirely different: the showrunners might have some plot points (Jon comes back from the head, The Night King wants to erase human history and for that he needs to kill The Three Eyed Raven) but they didn't do much with it. I wonder why they didn't go with a "Martin told us nothing, the TV Show will be its own thing from now on" narrative, à la Full Metal Alchemist. They would have been less scared to invent some mythology? I don't understand why they didn't even want to include Lady Stonheart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 28, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
I loved it.

It was a roller coaster of emotions for me, I kept thinking how the hell will they get away from this situation.

Melisandre didn't disappoint, she was key for the victory and when she told Arya 'what do we say to the god of death' I got goose bumps and thought from that point on that Arya would kill the NK, and sure enough she did although I screamed nooo when he grabbed her by the neck.

So the death count IIRC is, Beric Dondarrion, Edd from the night's watch, The Brave Lyanna Mormont  and of course Jorah and Melisandre.

I'm not sure if both dragons survived, we see Drogon but not the other one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 28, 2019, 10:38:24 PM
D&D said they've known it would be Arya for 3 years. I think that lines up with the fabled hotel room meeting with GRRM.

I thought this was a great episode. Like a horror movie and war movie combined—actually not sure there's ever been anything quite like it. It was bone-chilling and punishing. How could you not be in awe of that scene where the Dothraki get evaporated by the unseen storm of cold death?

My only complaint would be the extent to which I've been predicting and consuming predictions, but that's sort of on me. At a certain point it became clear that the entire main cast was so hopelessly in danger that the Night King was definitely going to die in this episode, which they've hinted would be the best way to defeat the dead. And there weren't any deaths that surprised me. I expected those people to die, plus one or two from the main cast. Surprised Brienne is alive. However, expecting Dany or Jon to die in episode 3 of 6 is madness.

How absolutely perfect was Arya's big scene? Too perfect, that's the answer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 28, 2019, 10:56:57 PM
Quote from: Fernando on April 28, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
So the death count IIRC is, Beric Dondarrion, Edd from the night's watch, The Brave Lyanna Mormont  and of course Jorah and Melisandre.

How could I forgot  Theon.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 28, 2019, 10:38:24 PM
I thought this was a great episode. Like a horror movie and war movie combined—actually not sure there's ever been anything quite like it. It was bone-chilling and punishing. How could you not be in awe of that scene where the Dothraki get evaporated by the unseen storm of cold death?

Completely agree, I'll add that the whole episode was full of dread and hopelessness until the very end.

And the music was superb.

Never expected that Dany or Jon would die here, alike you also thought that Brienne could go and maybe The Hound, that Clegane bowl many people want might happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 28, 2019, 11:02:00 PM
Side note, I have absolutely no problem with the Night King being defeated at this point. Two full episodes building up to it, and we're very much in the endgame. It seems too good to be true, but think about how hard-earned it was. This episode was a bloodbath. Civilians slaughtered in the crypt, even. Their forces are decimated, too—I don't even know how many soldiers they have left.

I'll toss in another complaint, though. I am genuinely disappointed by Bran's powers... or lack thereof. Is he a charlatan? Really hope there's more for him to do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on April 28, 2019, 11:13:30 PM
VERY VAGUE LOTR BOOK SPOILERS

I do reckon there's a chance the books will have the good guys dealing with the WW before extinguishing the final human threat. GRRM could use the scouring of The Shire chapter in the LOTR books as a precedent. Like an extended denouement. But of course, execution is critical. The NK isn't really a thing in the books (yet) and his vague goals and his unbelievably lame fate really expresses D&D's inability to create something of real substance. Maybe this is one of the reasons why GRRM is stuck; beyond all the micromanaging of his human plotlines, perhaps he has no idea on how to really proceed with WW in the books.
Anyway, there were certainly some neat moments in this episode and I imagine there will be some great dramatic moments in the coming episodes now that we're back to the human conflict.

EDIT:

Also, fuck Sam, RIP Edd.
Damn man, he was one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 29, 2019, 05:50:44 AM
People really enjoy complaining about this show, huh? 

I thought this was a breathtakingly beautiful episode. Visually stunning, with so many amazing moments and character arcs ending in satisfying ways. What more do people want from a battle episode? Did we watch the same episode? I thought it was great.

The Arya scene was indeed perfect.

We've been lead to believe that Jon/Dany was developed to be important figures in the battle against the NK, but instead we got the cocky little sister jumping out of nowhere to save them all. I loved it! Hero Jon fighting him in a epic battle would've been too predictable. This was a satisfying end to it imo.

I'm fine with Jon/Dany being important political figures in the coming episodes instead.

Oh, and I guess death has no real purpose or deeper meaning in the end...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on April 29, 2019, 06:39:58 AM
I'm just puzzled by some of the choices they made. I despised the bizarre Arya teleports behind you thing but I'm just as annoyed at some more grand scale issues. Like bringing Jon back. Rhaegar wooing Lyanna etc
No doubt, prophecy is an imprecise thing in this show- but it seems so pointless/inconsistent. The NK could have been killed by a stray dragonglass arrow from some redshirt. I don't know why he didn't wait until everyone in Winterfell was dead before he tried to kill Bran. He's never been in a rush before. Everything just seems so fraught with silliness. Not to mention the excessive 'they should have died here' parts.

And ultimately, isn't Cersei a total triviality now? Dragons or no dragons- Arya could sneak in and kill Cersei, Euron and Qyburn with relative ease. She already had planned on killing her earlier.

I don't believe the above is nitpicking either, it all relates to seemingly significant plot or thematic stuff.

My prediction is, or rather, my hope is that there is a serious complication coming up. Perhaps the WW aren't totally destroyed or something really crazy is gonna happen. Clearly, a lot can happen in 3 episodes. Perhaps there's more to Bran and Jon etc but we'll see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 29, 2019, 08:22:54 AM
Quote from: Lottery on April 29, 2019, 06:39:58 AM
I'm just puzzled by some of the choices they made. I despised the bizarre Arya teleports behind you thing

Didn't that make sense, though? She's an assassin, who grew up in WF and has been trained to move quietly. Maybe she even wore a dead face (or whatever, how does that work? lol) when she sneaked up on him. Let's see in the next episode...

I understand how people feel disappointed because it ended rather quickly after 7 whole seasons of build-up, but at the same time, i'm not sure how they could've made it differently. It's an army of dead who won't stop until they are defeated, so it wouldn't make sense to drag out The Great War for several episodes. It was always ending with one big battle. At one point I thought they would escape, but that would have felt silly as well. There's no escaping that.

Another reason why I liked it so much: It had me questioning the outcome throughout the episode. I never felt certain on anything...

Anyway, there's three episodes left and it doesn't make sense to talk about the grand scheme of things without the whole story infront of us.  As for now, I'm enjoying this episode for what it is; a straightforward battle episode, with great atmosphere (yet again) and amazing visuals, and a few character arcs reaching very satisfying emotional culminations.

Also, if you wanna get fucked up; read the last few pages and play the drinking game "take a shot everytime Robyn made a wrong prediction"!  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 29, 2019, 08:37:15 AM


The moment of silence as the knife dropped. I think we all felt that!

This is great to watch when you have followed the channel for a few season. This is the first I've seen the short haired blonde girl get this emotional, lol.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on April 29, 2019, 08:43:22 AM
They certainly did emphasise her sneakiness in the last season or two. I just find it a bit silly she still manages to slink past his entire retinue like that, followed by a dramatic yelling jump etc then the ice man is fast enough to catch her but falls for her knife drop trick. It doesn't make for compelling action. Like, this dude fucking sucks, his team sucks. All this ominous shambling and slaughter for this? And then there was the bizarre defense of Winterfell overall. I could ignore the silly stuff in BoB because it was so stunning but I couldn't here, especially as many of the core story elements were at play. The way things transpired just didn't do it for me. I did like the use of Melisandre in this one, that was effective, true to her character and so on.
Maybe they'll explain things next episode- like Bran was stealth-warging the WWs so Arya could pass etc but there's stuff in this episode that after-the-fact explanations can't fix.

Also, I think they need to prepare faces for use?

EDIT:
There's something very amusing about Euron Grejoy being a final villain.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 29, 2019, 09:07:50 AM
Still processing, but overall a little disappointed. There were some great moments, but I wanted *more* I guess. More big/key/shocking deaths. Something more than that resolution. I get it, it's only 80 minutes, but it felt like it shuold have been even more of a substantial episode than it was. That those who did die got more of a spotlight.

Felt for sure that Jamie would die. Surprised that the standouts of this ep were Arya and Melisandre, two characters who've bored me no end in the past. Loved both here. And Mormont, of course.

So next ep is all positioning for the battle of King's Landing, then the long battle ep itself, then the coda to everything?

EDIT: Robyn, that video is great. Not least because half the blokes there look like wildlings. Got the tingles all over again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 10:33:56 AM
Nobody wanted to see Arya stealing a Walker's face? I'm with Lottery, jumping out of nowhere while all the Big Bads are here...The episode made it clear that she would kill him, the real pay-off would have been to see her use what she spent half the show learning at Bravoos. The scene in the library was very suspensful and fun.

Also: I don't enjoy "hating". Even if I like the show way less, I was kind of crushed by the disappointement, especially after having loved last week episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 29, 2019, 01:02:23 PM
Re: Arya coming out of nowhere. How many seasons of work are required for y'all to be convinced that she has the skills? They've even shown us multiple times that Arya has particular skills for leaping and such (how much parkour did we see in Bravos?) and disappearing suddenly and, most importantly, sneaking up on dudes. There's even an insert shot of her whooshing past one of the white walkers (who've never been shown to be fast btw). She's probably running on full adrenaline as well, because this is clearly the most important moment of her life and the culmination of her entire struggle.

And guess what, it doesn't work, she doesn't successfully sneak up on the Night King. She outplays the white walkers with her speed and reflexes (and leaping abilities), but the Night King has to be outsmarted. It's perfect.

Quote from: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 10:33:56 AMNobody wanted to see Arya stealing a Walker's face? I'm with Lottery, jumping out of nowhere while all the Big Bads are here...The episode made it clear that she would kill him, the real pay-off would have been to see her use what she spent half the show learning at Bravoos.

Drenk, I love you, but this is insanity. Arya stealing a white walker's face would be extremely silly and completely counter to lore. There's been nothing to indicate that it would be even remotely possible. Is she going to kill one, then try to skin its icy face off? Her dagger would shatter it to pieces instantly anyway.

In fact, I think Arya's story has a perfect metaphysical and philosophical consistency leading to this point. It's very solid fantasy writing. She mastered the God of Death, but she does it in a way where she retains her humanity and can reclaim her identity. ("I am Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home.") She's a Master of Two Worlds. Only through her training with death is she ready to take on death itself, and she does it in the name of life. ("What do we say to the God of Death? Not today.") She gains the power of the faceless men while fighting for her own ideals, co-opting their power for the living.

What's more, from a lore POV, you could argue she's also working for the god of death by closing this loophole—eliminating the re-animated dead, abominations who have cheated the many-faced god. There's actually a theory that this was Jacquen's plan. (Although I'd ascribe Arya most of the agency.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: wilberfan on April 29, 2019, 02:04:03 PM
On just a technical level, did anyone else find it frustratingly DARK most of the episode?  I had to get up and turn off room lights in an attempt to actually SEE what was going on in most of the scenes.  I could obviously be my monitor, but I'm curious if any of you had a similar reaction at any point?

[edit]  Someone posted this elsewhere:  " I found myself enjoying the dragons lighting up the army not because they were helping the living, but because it lended some actual god damn light so we can actually view what's happening. Oh, and a wight can't break out of a wooden box but they can suddenly break through their tombs despite being nothing but bones? Boiiii" 

(And "LOL" to Sleepless, below.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 29, 2019, 02:18:42 PM
Even as an X-Files fan, yes, this episode was frustratingly dark. Still, it makes for good memes:

(https://i.imgur.com/hUhFKOg.jpg)

(https://pics.me.me/game-of-thrones-s8e3-spoiler-without-context-for-the-scenes-54952353.png)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 03:50:13 PM
I don't see that big a difference between her jumping out of nowhere and stealing a White Walker's face with her surnatural powers—the No Ones kind of defy logic, and she can also have a regular knife with her. Especially in a episode where Jon is surrounded by 50 walkers in a shot, gently killing them in the other. Dondarrion manages to espace five walkers who are stabbing him in order to die in the room where Melissandre can give us exposition concerning him. So Arya doing her best move—stealing a face, being No One—is possible, as much as jumping out of nowhere: she has the skills. Is it a little silly? Yes, but it has always been. I might not remember the space correctly, but the nearest wall around that tree is very far away, no? Or she was hiding in the tree? The AV Club writer said: Did she jump on a trampoline? It's not a lack of faith in her physical ability, but knowing what space they're in the imagination wonders: she can do all that, but it's not less silly than stealing a White Walker's face without being seen in my opinion.

That's why it would have been better seeing her getting there even if we know she's capable. They've done a lot of parallels with season 1 this year. It would have been good to see her find her way to the Tree, the same way she saw her father die, walking through the crowd, but this time managing to save everyone.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 29, 2019, 06:13:33 PM
The episode was too dark, for sure. But the culprit (mostly) turns out to be HBO. That streaming muddiness is just not compatible with so much black. It looks a bit better in a downloaded HD format. I'm looking at some torrent screenshots, which look noticeably better, and I'll watch one of these to see how it improves. Either way, they should have tested it, so this was clearly a significant mistake.

The darkness made a lot of battle scenes really confusing and overwhelming in a way I think was intentional, especially when the storm comes in and (for example) Dany and Jon can barely see anything. Daenerys not being able to see the battlefield for long stretches is a pivotal plot point in the episode. Many of the soldiers being in the dark is also important and makes the episode more terrifying.

Quote from: wilberfan on April 29, 2019, 02:04:03 PMa wight can't break out of a wooden box but they can suddenly break through their tombs despite being nothing but bones?"

The wight they captured in Season 7 had its hands and feet bound and a hood put over its head. Once put in that box, it was mostly calm unless provoked. When it was revealed in King's Landing, though, it was in fact unbound. I'm going to assume Clegane sang it a lullaby beforehand.

Quote from: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 03:50:13 PMI don't see that big a difference between her jumping out of nowhere and stealing a White Walker's face with her surnatural powers

Seriously? One is set up in the show, and the other is not. The show has done absolutely all the work to describe Arya's powers of stealth and agility, but it has never even hinted that it's possible to take a white walker's face. As I laid out, you'd have to kill a white walker first, and then skin its icy face, which is impossible both because they shatter when killed and because you surely wouldn't be able to skin off one of their icy faces. At that point you're just making an ice sculpture. How is that equally silly as running fast?

Quote from: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 03:50:13 PMI might not remember the space correctly, but the nearest wall around that tree is very far away, no? Or she was hiding in the tree? The AV Club writer said: Did she jump on a trampoline? It's not a lack of faith in her physical ability, but knowing what space they're in

Okay, let's look at the scene and figure this out. First, it's worth remembering that this whole sequence happens in slow motion. And Arya is FAST. The first indication we get is Arya whooshing past the white walkers on their right side. Judging by that white walker's reaction, she's already a bit past him when he notices, heading straight for the Night King. She is running on the ground at this point. When we first see her behind the Night King, she is clearly still running ON THE GROUND. She then leaps from the ground. (Not from the roof or a tree or a trampoline—let's stop being ridiculous, people.) She doesn't even leap that high!—barely above the Night King's head. How have people convinced themselves that this leap is an olympic achievement? What's more impressive is her stealth and speed, which has been established over and over again including within this very episode, and is enough to get past the white walkers but is actually NOT enough (by itself) to get the Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fuzzy Dunlop on April 29, 2019, 06:22:51 PM
Quote from: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 03:50:13 PM
I don't see that big a difference between her jumping out of nowhere and stealing a White Walker's face with her surnatural powers

That's why it would have been better seeing her getting there even if we know she's capable.

The difference is that Arya flying in out of nowhere is a jaw-dropping shocker climax that will go down in TV history, while the other thing would have been just watching someone get from point A to point B by wearing a mask.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 29, 2019, 06:37:09 PM
Just downloaded a torrent (TGx), and the black levels look just fine to my eye. But it's so delicately close. Close enough that streaming mud can wreck it.

Here's a good article at Vanity Fair about this issue:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/04/game-of-thrones-too-dark-hard-to-see-battle-of-winterfell-long-night
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: wilberfan on April 29, 2019, 08:27:24 PM
Man, thanks for the link to that article.   This made me LOL: 

QuoteLord of the Rings star Sean Astin once asked Lesnie “where is the light coming from?” when they were shooting in what should have been a darkened tower. Lesnie replied, “Same place as the music.”

Even Consumer Reports weighed in:

https://www.consumerreports.org/tvs/game-of-thrones-tv-settings-dark-episodes/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 30, 2019, 12:27:05 AM
Ghost has to be alive right? We saw him running with the Dothraki and most of them died but my hope is that they wouldn't kill him off screen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 12:37:04 AM
That Consumer Reports article is fantastic. So it comes down to compression. HBO's response is funny, too.

Quote from: Fernando on April 30, 2019, 12:27:05 AM
Ghost has to be alive right? We saw him running with the Dothraki and most of them died but my hope is that they wouldn't kill him off screen.

Right. I think the only actual offscreen deaths on this show are made clear to us, like the Blackfish.

Plus, fans would storm HBO headquarters if Ghost died off-screen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 01:19:39 AM
Listened to a bit of the Vanity Fair podcast, and Joanna Robinson complained about a particular moment being confusing, even after a second watch, and I'll say I was confused by it as well: When Jon lands his dragon on the ramparts and kind of parks there, at 23:18.

But on second watch it's pretty clear. With the soldiers falling back in large numbers now (the "protect the retreat" sequence is JUST before this), Jon is very understandably concerned for Bran. He tries to get Dany's attention, but fails because of the crazy weather and the fact that she's kinda far away. So Jon flies directly to the godswood and parks on the ramparts, overlooking Bran. He probably intends to defend Bran if the wights break through in the immediate future.

Fast forward 12 minutes (35:33), and Jon is still guarding or observing, perched on the ramparts, although now he's moved to the front line. He should really be scorching some ghouls here—but maybe the dragon doesn't obey the "dracarys" command from him. Then, the Night King arrives in dramatic fashion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 30, 2019, 05:37:24 AM
People all over internet acting like this was the last episode and D&D threw every character arc out the window or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 30, 2019, 06:32:20 AM
Quote from: Fuzzy Dunlop on April 29, 2019, 06:22:51 PM
Quote from: Drenk on April 29, 2019, 03:50:13 PM
I don't see that big a difference between her jumping out of nowhere and stealing a White Walker's face with her surnatural powers

That's why it would have been better seeing her getting there even if we know she's capable.

The difference is that Arya flying in out of nowhere is a jaw-dropping shocker climax that will go down in TV history, while the other thing would have been just watching someone get from point A to point B by wearing a mask.

Jaw dropping shocker might be a bit much. The episode tells you that she's the One twenty minutes before. Also, you don't need to follow her with the mask. And "just a mask" and "just dropping your knive" can be transformed in similar realities by the power of words. I would have prefered a "reveal" with a faceless walker instead of a weirdly slow Night King. I would not have been shocked either way. The episode tells you twenty minutes before that Arya is the One and I've seen enough bad guys quietly waiting for someone to off them while they're two seconds away from victory not to be shocked. Actually, I saw the exact same thing happen in a movie theater a few hours after The Long Night—but the move was less cool than Arya's, so GoT wins.

(That movie also had a lot of "Let's say that line from season 1 that everyone knows, because it's cool", something that even Twin Peaks: The Return did, it's getting more and more recurrent now that all our narratives are getting precious about their own history. Melissandre knows *things*. But she also has seen Game of Thrones.)

But that Arya moment is only the result of previous choices leading up to it, so my issues concern more the episode in general. I would have preferred an entirely different situation for Arya.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 10:31:15 AM
Having had 24+ hours to process this now, the thing that keeps coming back and really bugging me was how easy the defeat of the Night King and the white walkers was. Sure, not as easy as *insert witticism here*, but the level of threat they were built up to be over the proceeding seven seasons doesn't feel on a level with the conclusion here. Spectacular episode as it was. The white walkers also served as a metaphor for climate change, and I can think of no more fitting end for that parallel that despite all the human wars, politics, etc. in the end it's all for naught as the white walkers are a force of nature that's going to wipe everyone out in the end anyway. I think that would have ultimately been a far more powerful ending to the show and said so much more, especially given this show is now a global phenomenon. So yes, I think the resolution to this whole story was way too simple. As has been pointed out elsewhere, we've three episodes left for a whole host of heroes to conquer a pregnant woman and a pirate. Ho hum.

Of course, all that said, I'm really hoping that GRRM and D&D have a lot of surprises up their sleeves that none of us saw coming.

Also that there's a point to Bran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 30, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
Cersei has to die next week, right? The real battle must be Sansa & Friends vS Dany & Friends (who, though? the Dothrakis pointlessly died). Arya, all alone, can poison Cersei's countless bottles of wines. Dragons can burn the boats, I don't see how they can kill them if the Night King and his magical spears can't. And Cersei is at the end of her rope, it should be a formality since The Night King was not that difficult to defeat (and he was the huge threat that absolutely needed Cersei's army, making Jon risk his life last season in order to show her that the dead were real, so either they suck at evaluating the stakes or Cersei is way less dangerous).

I can even imagine Cersei being killed halfway through the next one, giving time for the last conflict.

Of course, it won't happen. But my fanfiction has some fifteen minutes legendary scene à la Winds of Winter with Arya infiltrating King's Landing and the Dragons easilly destroying the fleat. *That* part should be easy. But the sequence should show that Cersei, weirdly, is at peace—she has no one and went as far as she could...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 10:31:15 AMHaving had 24+ hours to process this now, the thing that keeps coming back and really bugging me was how easy the defeat of the Night King and the white walkers was.

I have the complete opposite view and had the opposite experience. The next day, the emotional weight of this episode really hit me hard, centering on Arya and how well she earned this. The same way we eventually realized "oh, it's kind of all about Jon," Arya's monumental importance to the series is very clear now. I just think about everything she's been through—it was all worth it for this moment. We are in the last few episodes, and I think we need to be okay with payoffs. We deserve payoffs. And this is a big one. The way she dispatched the Night King was true to her skills, her style, and her character as well. Completely satisfying.

When you say it was easy to defeat the Night King, are you conceptualizing that as defeating him within the space of this episode? Because the way I see it, defeating the Night King has been a long journey filled with death and suffering. The first large-scale battle against the Night King happened 3 seasons ago. They've done a lot of work figuring him out and finding ways they might defeat him. Think of all the work Jon has done organizing forces and convincing people to actually do this. He brought the full might of Daenerys's armies to this battle, and they would have lost instantly without it. Embedded within that is all the work Daenerys has done gathering her armies. All so we could get here. So was it easy to defeat the Night King? Absolutely not.

Quote from: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 10:31:15 AMAs has been pointed out elsewhere, we've three episodes left for a whole host of heroes to conquer a pregnant woman and a pirate. Ho hum.

I think (and hope) you're underestimating the show.

This also speaks to something else I've been seeing—people conflating the allied forces with the main cast. We may have a surprising amount of the main cast left ("a whole host of heroes")—that's true. But the Northern forces have kind of been decimated. The Dothraki are simply gone. So many Northerners died. The Unsullied have taken a deep loss—not even sure how many are left. Cersei has two fresh armies. (I think a dragon sort of trumps all, but still.)

Moreover, I think it was wise to deal with the dead in the first half of this season. You want the season, and the series, to finish with emotional character payoffs—which you don't get fighting a mysterious force of nature.

Quote from: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 10:31:15 AMOf course, all that said, I'm really hoping that GRRM and D&D have a lot of surprises up their sleeves that none of us saw coming.

Also that there's a point to Bran.

I'm 100% with you here. I will be disappointed if there's nothing crazy in store for us. And yes, Bran absolutely needs to do something. I have faith.

And they must be building up to a big moment of Tyrion genius. Hope they come up with something clever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 03:00:58 PM
Some more thoughts on the battle itself. It has become abundantly clear that our protagonists are bad at military strategy. Daenerys's attack on the caravan was smart, but otherwise it's kind of been one tactical failure after another, including the Battle of the Bastards. Tyrion must have been so insecure that he didn't contribute much to the war plan here.

It seems like they were surprised by how absolutely terrifying and relentless the dead were. Moreso, they seemed blindsided by the lack of visibility. The storm crippled their ability to even see where the enemy was or how many there were. As did the unexpected lack of fire light. Things were so chaotic and overwhelming that there was virtually no battlefield command or communication. This was not their proudest day as an organized army.

Maybe that's what has a lot of people down.

Personally I think it works for the episode. It's sad, but it works. And hopefully it sets them up to be smarter in the next battle. On the plus side, they'll have fewer troops to organize.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 10:31:15 AMAs has been pointed out elsewhere, we've three episodes left for a whole host of heroes to conquer a pregnant woman and a pirate. Ho hum.

I think (and hope) you're underestimating the show.

This also speaks to something else I've been seeing—people conflating the allied forces with the main cast. We may have a surprising amount of the main cast left ("a whole host of heroes")—that's true. But the Northern forces have kind of been decimated. The Dothraki are simply gone. So many Northerners died. The Unsullied have taken a deep loss—not even sure how many are left. Cersei has two fresh armies. (I think a dragon sort of trumps all, but still.)

Yeah, I was being a bit facetious recycling that comment ;) Good point on the allied forces vs main cast point though. But I think we can all agree even one dragon should be a safe bet against an armada of wooden boats. (Maybe that's a surprise Cersei has been working on since we last saw her... We know she's capable of explosive surprises to overcome her enemies after all. Imagine she succeeds in wiping out all dragons with two episodes remaining?)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on April 30, 2019, 04:11:50 PM
There's probably more wildfire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on April 30, 2019, 04:37:22 PM
An ending where everything go to hell despise them saving the world from the WW, could be a very powerful ending as well. Wildfire + Dragonfire isn't a perfect combo. And there will always be human stupidity.

I think there's something more to Bran too. With the powers he possesses, he could've have been manipulating history in ways we don't know about yet. Small things to guide the characters on their paths, but perhaps he has fucked up at some point too, trying to change things that wasn't possible (the burn them all theory for example). Remember that his training with the original Three Eyed Raven was never finished.

There's three episodes left and I'm sure they will wrap everything up nicely. R+L+J will complicate things too. Otherwise there's no point to it.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 02:22:38 PM
I have faith.

Me too!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 05:23:00 PM
I think I'm finding a crux. Once things get especially chaotic, this battle is overly dark, visually confusing, and overwhelming. Many people are viewing that as a failure of craft. But the characters are experiencing all those things—why shouldn't we? Your willingness to go along with that may determine how much you like the episode. Poor visibility was a plot point throughout the battle. Things go wrong. People don't know what to do. Daenerys was supposed to light the trench, but she couldn't see Davos's signal.

Many sequences are executed with absolute precision and clarity, like the Unsullied protecting the retreat. Others are chaotic and confusing, like how bad things get when the wights climb over the wall. Here's another a pair of examples—Arya fighting off a horde of wights in the halls of Winterfell (dark, confusing, overwhelming) vs. Arya sneaking through the library (crystal clear). Am I to believe that Miguel Sapochnik forgot to put enough torches in the hallway?

I think it's fair to critique some of his choices, though. Darkness aside, a lot of the fighting was shot too close-up. We could have used more wide shots. You could argue that would have lightened the horror a bit (there aren't a lot of wide shots in tense horror scenes), but I think it might have improved a lot of scenes.

Quote from: Sleepless on April 30, 2019, 03:58:26 PMBut I think we can all agree even one dragon should be a safe bet against an armada of wooden boats. (Maybe that's a surprise Cersei has been working on since we last saw her... We know she's capable of explosive surprises to overcome her enemies after all. Imagine she succeeds in wiping out all dragons with two episodes remaining?)

Good question. I have no idea what Cersei has up her sleeve. The dragons have to get fairly close to burn boats, which does make them a bit vulnerable. Either way, I can't see more than one dragon surviving the end.

I feel like they've clearly set Tyrion up for redemption. I'm picturing a commando mission through the tunnels below King's Landing, sort of like what was attempted last season. But hopefully it's something I can't even think of.

Personally I want Arya to take Harry Strickland's face and send the Golden Company marching the wrong way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 30, 2019, 08:43:12 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 02:22:38 PM
I have the complete opposite view and had the opposite experience. The next day, the emotional weight of this episode really hit me hard, centering on Arya and how well she earned this. The same way we eventually realized "oh, it's kind of all about Jon," Arya's monumental importance to the series is very clear now. I just think about everything she's been through—it was all worth it for this moment. We are in the last few episodes, and I think we need to be okay with payoffs. We deserve payoffs. And this is a big one. The way she dispatched the Night King was true to her skills, her style, and her character as well. Completely satisfying.

When you say it was easy to defeat the Night King, are you conceptualizing that as defeating him within the space of this episode? Because the way I see it, defeating the Night King has been a long journey filled with death and suffering. The first large-scale battle against the Night King happened 3 seasons ago. They've done a lot of work figuring him out and finding ways they might defeat him. Think of all the work Jon has done organizing forces and convincing people to actually do this. He brought the full might of Daenerys's armies to this battle, and they would have lost instantly without it. Embedded within that is all the work Daenerys has done gathering her armies. All so we could get here. So was it easy to defeat the Night King? Absolutely not.


Couldn't agree more about Arya, her moment was well earned even if Melisandre let us knew minutes ago, I still yelled noooo when the NK grabbed her.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 03:00:58 PM
Some more thoughts on the battle itself. It has become abundantly clear that our protagonists are bad at military strategy. Daenerys's attack on the caravan was smart, but otherwise it's kind of been one tactical failure after another, including the Battle of the Bastards. Tyrion must have been so insecure that he didn't contribute much to the war plan here.

It seems like they were surprised by how absolutely terrifying and relentless the dead were. More so, they seemed blindsided by the lack of visibility. The storm crippled their ability to even see where the enemy was or how many there were. As did the unexpected lack of fire light. Things were so chaotic and overwhelming that there was virtually no battlefield command or communication. This was not their proudest day as an organized army.

What you say reminded me what Tyrion said in the crypts, something like 'I should be out there, maybe I see something they don't', only to be told by Sansa that they were useless out there.

BTW, I love Sansa but it bothers me that she still doesn't like/trust Dany after everything she has done and all she has lost, maybe she will make piece with that after seeing how everything went in the battle. I loved that Missandei defended her in the crypts.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 12:37:04 AM
Plus, fans would storm HBO headquarters if Ghost died off-screen.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2019, 01:55:18 AM
I rewatched "The Long Night" and took notes.

First I checked in with Episode 2 to review what the battle plan was:

Jon acknowledges right up front that there are "far too many" dead; they can never actually defeat them in a conventional battle. "Our enemy doesn't tire," he says. "Doesn't stop. Doesn't feel. You can't beat them in a straight fight." So he tells everyone explicitly that their only real chance is slaying the Night King. Bran, then, is the way they get the Night King to expose himself.

Davos then fills us in on the rest of their plan: "We'll hold off the rest of them for as long as we can." Yep. That's it.

So back to E3.

When Melisandre arrives and enters Winterfell, there's some heavy foreshadowing as she gazes meaningfully at Arya across the way. This immediately follows Melisandre saying she'll be dead before the dawn, so the air is already thick with prophecy in this moment.

The Charge

It's still not clear to me what initiates the Dothraki charge. We see it begin from inside Winterfell. Jorah did raise his sword in preparation, but that was several minutes ago, maybe even 10+ minutes in-universe. Dothraki yelping and rowdiness precedes the charge, and it's kind of a wave effect (they don't charge in unison), so I think they might have gotten carried away and (clearly) overconfident. We're not given any indication of a commander initiating this charge, but we don't get a shot of anyone believing this is a mistake.

The overhead shot of the Dothraki charging is so breathtaking that I did stop caring for a moment.

Jon and Daenerys seem concerned but not alarmed that the Dothraki are charging into the darkness, which should alarm us about their military skills. This strategy seems at odds with using Bran as bait. I just can't come up with an explanation for it. If I'm stretching a bit, I might say that the dead have all the time in the world, so for the living it's probably best to get the battle started.

Some insight from a Vox article: "The Dothraki had success charging into adversaries like that in the past because they were charging into living humans who are subject to terror and fear, leading to easier deaths. That wasn't the case here."

Either way, it's clear that even Jon underestimated the dead, which stretches credulity but is possible.

The Unsullied don't seem concerned by the charge. It appears to be part of the plan. They're ready with the trebuchets.

I think it's worth reiterating: characters in this show are allowed to be dumb and have bad plans. This was clearly a bad plan. Catastrophically bad. So bad that it breaks immersion. But I think it was worth it just for that scene where their lights slowly get extinguished as we hear their howls echo across the icy plains. Absolutely beautiful and terrifying. Can't say I've seen anything else like it.

Battle Begins

Jon believes the Night King could appear at any moment, so he wants to stay perched there with Daenerys for the NK's arrival. She wisely deduces that the front line needs her to scorch some zombies immediately, though. Jon almost looks confused. Why are they still letting him plan battles?? If anything, this should convince the North to embrace Daenerys as their queen. While Jon just sat there like a dummy, Dany instantly joined the fray and saved their butts. Pointedly, btw, Sansa sees this and is overwhelmed by the dragons' power or Dany's heroism or both.

(Flash forward, and this will mark yet another battle where Jon can't finish the job, partially because of the tough spot his poor strategizing has put them in. He's not great at this.)

Meanwhile, Jon flies to the back line looking for the Night King. Not a bad idea, I guess. But this is precisely when they're blasted by the storm, and visibility gets bad.

Then we get one of the most beautiful shots in GoT history (first attachment).

At this point, we're starting to see a pattern that bothers me in this episode: characters from the main cast are constantly put in peril that seems pretty hopeless (Brienne and Sam so far), to be saved at the last minute by another main character. I'd give them one or two of these in a battle episode, but this trope gets a little worn out in Ep 3.

Sam on the battlefield is quite a silly thing to witness. I have no idea how he survived this episode.

As Sansa enters the crypt, the wordless exchange between her and Tyrion is just perfect. One of the highlights.

At 23:00, I'm seeing the first actual "too dark" moment, but the camera is swooping past our forces into the unknown stormy darkness, then essentially does a whip pan up to Jon in the sky, where the point of this scene is that he can't see well enough to find Dany. Obviously intentional use of low visibility and done to good effect.

Unable to locate Dany or the Night King, Jon falls back to guard Bran. Pretty reasonable move. However, if I'm being fair, I would say this scene of Jon landing on the ramparts is truly unnecessarily dark. No good reason that we can barely see him here. And this might be one of the key moments that threw people off—not understanding what Jon was doing plus not being able to see him clearly.

It's hard to overstate how heavily Daenerys and her forces are carrying this fight. The Northerners would have lost instantly without her. To my mind, the North (and the entirety of humanity, really) owes their lives to Daenerys and should consider being profoundly grateful.

Night King Arrives

Sapochnik is doing a lot of spectacular work in this episode. The Night King reveal is really something (second attachment).

Underappreciated detail: a nervous Gendry taking deep breaths as the walkers begin climbing the walls.

Now halfway through the episode, I've only been able to identify one moment that was needlessly dark.

When the walkers get over the wall, it's chaotic, confusing, and shot close (and to good effect—you feel like they're invading your space). But it is not dark. There's ample backlighting from torches and the trench fire.

Underappreciated detail: Davos being super impressed with Arya's fighting.

Major Arya foreshadowing #2: When Melisandre inspires Arya to run off on her mission, we immediately cut to the godswood (where Theon begins the defense).

Jon and the Night King battling on their dragons is clearer on rewatch. Apparently the dragons slashing and taking bites out of each other is straight from book lore. I will fault parts of this scene for being too dark, though. This would be needlessly dark moment #2. The scene does get nice and bright when the blue flame comes out, though. So, arguable.

Battle Ends

I love the shot of the white walkers heading toward Winterfell (attached). There are so many money shots in this episode.

The crypt walls that the dead break through are definitely crumbly, like they're made of paper mache and sand.

I think when we watch the scenes inside the Winterfell courtyard at this point, we're looking for all the familiar faces to see how much trouble each character is in. Obviously that's not an issue on second watch. And on first watch, if one does have trouble making out all the faces, one can take a little comfort that any major character death would happen in a close shot that we can see very clearly.

Nice to see Dany finally pick up a sword and help fend off the dead a bit. Her skills pretty much align with her lack of combat training, too. I like that detail.

The horror that unfolds in the crypt is really one of the craziest parts of the episode. I wouldn't be surprised if half the civilians down there were slaughtered. Between this and the battle itself, there's going to be some major mourning in Ep 4.

Another completely wordless exchange between Sansa and Tyrion that conveys more than any conversation could. High-level character work.

The return of the piano score is fraught with meaning. Last time we heard this type of thing, it slowly crescendoed and culminated in death on a massive scale. So it does here.

I can't get over how absolutely perfect Arya is as the Night King slayer. Who better qualified than a supernatural assassin? Which is to say nothing of all the character meaning going into it. When I picture Jon killing the Night King, not only is it boring, I have literally no idea how that could happen. I'm unaware of any skills he has that could directly accomplish such a thing.

Post-Night King slaying, I love the moment in the crypt when everyone takes a moment to try to absorb what just happened, like they're waking up from a bad nightmare but there are still dead bodies everywhere.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 05, 2019, 05:00:40 PM
The GoT has leaked, so beware.

EDIT: Oh, it's weirder than I thought: it's a cam leak, but not of the whole episode, just of some minutes? Delivered in pieces? Anyway, I've been "spoiled" by seeing a screencap, trying to know what exactly had leaked.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2019, 05:10:47 PM
Thanks for the heads up.

I think every episode this season has leaked a few hours early.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 05, 2019, 06:08:09 PM
Quote from: Drenk on May 05, 2019, 05:00:40 PM
The GoT has leaked, so beware.

You took one for the team, thank you, I'll stay off twitter and tv news.


And great post JB.


Sorry I don't remember who said it but someone here pointed out that the war against Cersei should be easy to win just with Arya and her many faces, she could kill Euron, Cersei and whoever came in her way so I wonder how they are going to handle  everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2019, 06:50:21 PM
Arya should be frozen in amber to be unleashed in a thousand years when the next Long Night is upon us.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2019, 09:42:07 PM
Well guys, I played the expectations game, and I think I lost. At first I was angry. But I'm only a victim of my own self-delusion—I really believed Daenerys could keep her shit together.

They played fair. They showed us the cracks forming in Episode 1. They foreshadowed this last season, not with her cruel battle tactics (which were no more cruel than Tywin on a mild day), but with something even more foreshadowy—Bran's initiative. It makes complete sense in retrospect. Why was it so important that Bran set that chain of events in motion? Because Daenerys had to be taken down.

It works because Emilia Clarke sold it. She sold it so hard. The writing also did everything possible to set it up in this episode. Her losses have been profound, and they just keep happening. She feels no loyalty from anyone around her. Her most faithful (living) follower has just been beheaded.

I think it's happened. I think Daenerys has actually flipped that switch in her head. It's not madness, exactly. The mad king's rage was based in delusions. Daenerys's rage is based in reality, and I'm not sure there's a way to turn her back. It would surprise me. (But the show is definitely surprising me right now.)

I'm actually somehow open to a rage-filled Daenerys doing what needs to be done, followed by Jon's ascension. One thing's certain—I'm no longer rooting for Dany to take the throne. That saddens me, but it's where we are.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 05, 2019, 11:10:27 PM
It seems they simply don't learn, they are so bad at strategy.

Sansa was actually right, they needed to wait and recover from the battle of Winterfell, they didn't and paid the price.

I'm with you, I used to think that she would take the throne and Jon would pay with his life for it but right now it seems that Dany won't take it back, it even seems impossible, I have never seen her that weak, but...maybe because of that she will deliver, maybe.


Right now Arya is the one with the better chance to off Cersei, she has skills nobody else have, unless they hire another faceless to kill her. BTW I like that she is with the hound again.


WTF Jaime? Just like that he's running with Cersei? Even after learning that she sent Bronn to kill him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2019, 12:08:04 AM
It was quite telegraphed in this episode, but it's clear that Jon's judgment (military and political) is crippled by his love and allegiance for Daenerys. They may be a good match romantically, but being together makes them weaker and dumber. It's exactly what Tyrion feared in the boatsex brooding scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 06, 2019, 12:54:01 AM
I guess we are well and truly done with the ice people in all points of discussion. When will I learn? It seems that I am also a victim of my self-delusion.

I'll quickly mention one thing- that parley at the end was silly when considering Cersei. There is no reason that exchange should have occurred and ended the way it did. Cersei has zero sense of honour and she is beyond all reason- in addition to that, her ballistas are now clearly capable of making mincemeat out of dragons. Cersei has zero cause to obey these wartime rules at this point, Dany and co would not have been able to walk out of there at all. Obviously all this torment and uncertainty will lead to Dracary Danys next ep. I think this sort of thing is important to consider and might become more obvious on a rewatch- the writers need to hit certain plot points and character moments but lack the competence to fill in the gaps effectively. Kinda frustrating when everyone else on the team is trying their hardest.

I liked Dinklage's pained doubt during this ep. Everything is very much falling apart for Tyrion.

@Fernando, surely he's actually off to kill Cersei? Even if he redeems himself he'll always be a bad man (e.g him being the despised Kingslayer after his greatest act of good)- so killing Cersei won't ever redeem him overall but it's something he must do? He and her are meant to be together one way or another in life and death?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2019, 01:05:51 AM
David Benioff says after the episode that Jaime has made the choice to return to Cersei. But he's surely lying. He better be. Jaime fulfilling the valonqar prophecy would be a pretty explosive way to end the series.

Edit: the actual Benioff quote is: "he makes the choice to go back to Cersei." That is consistent with Jaime the Cersei-slayer. In the context of his interview it does point us in the opposite direction, though. Sneaky? They could string it out until the very end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 06, 2019, 06:14:37 AM
Okay. Whatever.

I was excited for this episode even though I didn't like the last one. They had all the pieces to make something thrilling. Instead, they did that.

Oh. If every virgin of the Seven Kingdom has to get some, yes, they can fill all the hours of TV they want.

When Bronn gets in, I'm sorry but that's a SNL sketch.

Jon's dumbness in this episode was too much. Everyone being dumb is just convenient for the writers at this point.

That dragon's death: you blink and you miss it. Okay, I'm just sad at this point, not even angry...Euron's face after the kill: it looked like a Disney Channel villain.

Cersei can kill everyone at the end, what the hell is happening? She killed a dragon in six seconds with these arrows: just kill all of them and then bye-bye Queen Daenerys?

(Brienne is a knight, she should have stopped Jaime. Just...write the interesting scene for God's sake. And then write around it. In what world does Brienne let someone save the enemy of her Queen? Did she not stop him because...he fucked her? Oh God.)



Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 06, 2019, 07:13:39 AM
Yup, I didn't like this episode at all.

I can get behind some of the core choices the showrunners are making, but at times they are handling them so bad. I hated the way the dragon died. Dany thought it was a good idea to just fly into KL and then be like "opps he's dead now"? Also the way she was smiling at him right before he got shot... ugh.

So I understand their ideas, and why they are making them. I just don't enjoy the way it's playing out. It feels dumb.

It's becoming a bit too sentimental for my taste as well. Everything in this episode seemed off somehow, like they are not even in the same GoT universe anymore. Things are getting silly and melodramatic. They are turning every interaction to a fanfiction idea of Cleganebowl or something...

This whole episode almost made the last episode (which I loved) feel underwhelming in retroperspective. I guess that's that with the NK? No explanations from Brann or anything?

Quote from: Drenk on May 06, 2019, 06:14:37 AM
When Bronn gets in, I'm sorry but that's a SNL sketch.

Yeah, what the hell? They couldn't write that scene better?

I haven't read online reactions outside of this thread yet. I am guessing they are bad...


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 06, 2019, 08:19:45 AM
In the next episode of GoT; Jon Snow regret his decision to leave Ghost:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 06, 2019, 08:21:45 AM
Ha! I actually enjoyed that episode. It had uneven moments, but then this show always has. There is a definite sense of an ending has occurred, Tormund and Sam say their goodbyes, to them all is right with the world now the NK is defeated. 80 minutes gave it time to breathe, get all the necessary mourning and fucking out of the way, but things are finally happening now. Characters are making stupid decisions (Jon especially) but then, they often do (Jon especially). I expected at least one dragon to die prematurely, so it was nice to have at lest that prediction come true. But yes, that scene outside the gates was way overmilked. I was actually really hoping Tyrion would be mowed down by arrows there, it'd be unexpected but they seemingly telegraphed it minutes earlier when the mast of the boat fell on him. I don't know what else he could add in these final two installments, as he does seem to have lost everything. And control. Dany is now a baddie. Called it. Jon is still as boring as ever. I'm still Team Cersei, but she's become increasingly one-note and cartoonish, so I don't know who I'm supposed to be rooting for at this point. They called out that Sansa has had perhaps the greatest transformation of any character, so maybe her... It doesn't feel like they've set her up as a leader who wants the best for the seven kingdoms though, merely the north/herself. And if she isn't involved in this final battle, I really don't see what claim she might eventually have once everyone else is dead. At this point, I'm just thankful that there's no clear and obvious final ending to what's going to happen. Everything is up in the air, which is good, because I really didn't want to see Dany easily win and take the throne. Hoping the surprises keep coming.

So this starbucks thing is legit?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 06, 2019, 08:34:11 AM
A lot of people who disliked last episode enjoyed this one. I'm confused.

For the night is dark and full of opinions...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2019, 09:49:12 AM
I think it's pretty clear what's happening with Jaime. Remember what prompted his departure—news that Cersei was winning. I don't think he wants Cersei to win.

Quote from: Robyn on May 06, 2019, 07:13:39 AM
Quote from: Drenk on May 06, 2019, 06:14:37 AM
When Bronn gets in, I'm sorry but that's a SNL sketch.

Yeah, what the hell? They couldn't write that scene better?

That was definitely an interesting scene. I'm not even quite sure if it works to the intended effect, but it's interesting. I think it's walking a bit of a tightrope. It's played for comedy a bit, but it's also reminding us who Bronn really is. Personally I think Bronn's likability mostly derives from the actor. I have no affection for that type of character who has no discernible honor, even when the world is ending. Of course they might be setting up an arc, but I'm over him.

Quote from: Robyn on May 06, 2019, 07:13:39 AMI hated the way the dragon died. Dany thought it was a good idea to just fly into KL and then be like "opps he's dead now"?

She was flying into Dragonstone, which should be one of her safe havens, but Euron ambushed her there.

I would bet that all the dragons will be dead by the end. The symmetry is just too irresistible.

Quote from: Drenk on May 06, 2019, 06:14:37 AMJon's dumbness in this episode was too much. Everyone being dumb is just convenient for the writers at this point

This is a criticism I can sort of get behind. In seasons 1 through 4, this was a story about very smart people scheming against each other. In seasons 5 through 8, it's a story about bad decisions. In some ways, this is a wise storytelling choice. D&D know they can't match GRRM's skill for crafting a labyrinthine battle of intellects, so given no choice, they went a different way. I think this is okay; I'd rather have them play to their strengths.

With that in mind, I think book readers need to come to terms with the reality that the second half of this series is not a book adaptation.

In some ways, Jon's stupidity is a virtue. He doesn't have the capacity to scheme. His superpower is that he's pure of heart—which for this story is heroic enough.

Quote from: Sleepless on May 06, 2019, 08:21:45 AMThey called out that Sansa has had perhaps the greatest transformation of any character, so maybe her... It doesn't feel like they've set her up as a leader who wants the best for the seven kingdoms though, merely the north/herself.

You're right, she doesn't want to rule. She just wants someone good (and who she can trust) to rule. Daenerys is NOT that. I think they really effectively sold Sansa's genuine worry this episode, just as they sold Dany's rage.

Sansa's character motivation is that she's determined to never be subservient ever again. For obvious reasons. The fact that they've made this an absolutely essential centerpiece of the final season is pretty interesting and impressive, I think, considering it isn't and probably won't be part of her character in the books at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on May 06, 2019, 12:00:03 PM
Quote from: Robyn on May 06, 2019, 07:13:39 AMSo I understand their ideas, and why they are making them. I just don't enjoy the way it's playing out. It feels dumb.

It's becoming a bit too sentimental for my taste as well. Everything in this episode seemed off somehow, like they are not even in the same GoT universe anymore. Things are getting silly and melodramatic. They are turning every interaction to a fanfiction idea of Cleganebowl or something...

The show is still viscerally thrilling, and I'm genuinely excited for the last two episodes, but overall I agree with this. The writing just isn't there. There was two scenes of extended conversation between Varys and Tyrion where they literally repeat themselves in each scene.

The continued incompetence in military strategy from team Dany is maddening, and makes it hard to even root for a group this short-sighted. We didn't need to lose another dragon. Whether she's going mad or not, Dany should be smarter than this. They spent years and seasons building her into arguably the most dimensional character on the show, only to dumb her down for the sake of plot contrivance. 

And FFS producers, how can you not pony up some dough to allow Jon Snow to have a goodbye moment with Ghost?

Sigh. There were still some fun moments. it's still overall so good. Ultimately the collective fanbase has spent several years marinating on how this show should end, so it's inevitable many will be bummed when their theories don't pan out.




Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2019, 12:26:23 PM
Quote from: ©brad on May 06, 2019, 12:00:03 PMAnd FFS producers, how can you not pony up some dough to allow Jon Snow to have a goodbye moment with Ghost?

This was my #1 issue with the episode. Only makes sense if Ghost makes a surprise return.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 06, 2019, 03:29:10 PM
Some Curb fun.

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtaggriswold/status/1125476882760327169?s=21
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 06, 2019, 09:28:56 PM
Quote from: ©brad on May 06, 2019, 12:00:03 PM
Ultimately the collective fanbase has spent several years marinating on how this show should end, so it's inevitable many will be bummed when their theories don't pan out.

Certainly, some people are disappointed that their theorising was all fruitless and that's on them but I think a lot of folks were searching for substance or details where there wasn't any, with no particular theories in mind. Some elaboration and explanation would go a long way, it's doubly frustrating when the show has fallen in love cutting away from scenes (a fourth paternity reveal may have been too much for some but Sansa and Arya's immediate reactions would have been worth it).

At this stage I almost feel sorry for Dany, she'll be forced to become a massive psycho because her advisors failed her over and over after she arrived in the country (that said, no one has made any smart decisions in a very, very long time). There were a few moments in the last ep where she reminded me very much of Viserys.

Ignoring the Ghost neglect one part I liked was when both Jon and Tormund agreed that Jon would be happier beyond the wall. If Jon survives, that would be an ending I would really like. Then he can hang out with Ghost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 07, 2019, 05:14:18 PM
I'm not a nitpicker. This is known. I even defended the jetpacking in Season 7. However, the show has a real problem with battle strategy. The core of the problem is that we see their battle-planning scenes from beginning to end (as we did this episode), but it's mostly just a series of opinions or proposals. The details are not debated in any meaningful way for any length of time. A fragile consensus forms in an extremely rushed way, and suddenly there's no further discussion. These scenes would greatly benefit from being two or three times as long.

The #1 thing that challenges my appreciation of a TV show is characters violating their own characteristics. Certainly people can act unlike themselves at times, but that is usually not the story being told when this happens.

Significant out-of-character moments in this episode:

– Jon not saying goodbye to Ghost
– Tyrion randomly harassing Brienne about her virginity, and not in a fun way
– Tormund suggesting only men can ride dragons (I thought he admired empowered women)

But a more significant character issue is that of Sansa. What Sansa said in this episode is pretty much exactly the thing I hoped she'd never say:

"Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest, I would have stayed a little bird all my life."

Wow! This is literally the worst, most character-gutting thing Sansa could have said. I worried about this during Season 5 while Sansa was locked in the rape room:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PMSansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

They could have walked the line, but they chose to credit Sansa's trauma for her character development. Not the way she overcame it and transcended it. Not the way she persevered and drew on her own inner strength. Nope. The writers, and Sansa as their proxy, credit the violence itself. Even worse, they explicitly tell us that she would have remained "a little bird" without it, implying that her strength and intelligence are a result of those traumas. Yikes!

We could read between the lines, stretch a bit, and choose to have a less problematic interpretation. But the fact is, the writers have not done the work to respect the nuance of the topic, and they've done a disservice to their favorite character.

And yet, I think I still love this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 07, 2019, 09:10:42 PM
I'm beginning to think both Jaime takes are true—he's "addicted" to Cersei and hates himself for it, but he also intends to kill her. I keep coming back to the point I made before—the news that Cersei might be winning is what prompts his departure.

Some incredible insights on the Bald Move podcast (http://baldmove.com/game-of-thrones/804/) this week. Seriously. (They even backed up some of my Sansa thoughts.) It was enough for me to renew my membership for a full year (for ad-free feeds).

They offer one possible defense for Jon ghosting Ghost. It might be there to show that he's turning away from his northern roots (remember that scene also included Tormund saying Jon has the North in him). This reminds me of the theory, which I like, that Ned Stark cosmically doomed himself when he killed Sansa's dire wolf.

I rarely have such a love-hate relationship with an episode, but here we are. This is a perplexing one. There are so many little flaws, some of the characterization is off, and the writers are simply done sweating the details. On the other hand, this has some truly breathtaking moments. Emilia Clarke's portrayal of Daenerys is just magnificent here, completely selling this stew of volatile emotions. Her best work since late Season 7.

This season is kind of a mess, sometimes inexcusably so, but I still love this show to my core.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on May 09, 2019, 05:50:05 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 07, 2019, 09:10:42 PMThis season is kind of a mess, sometimes inexcusably so, but I still love this show to my core.

Oh of course, I do too as do the majority of fans I would assume. As much of a hot mess as this season's been at times, D&D aren't beyond redemption. As long as they:

Stop having our core characters acting stupid/out of character.
No more asinine battle strategy gaffes.
Keep this final dragon alive for the reminder of next episode at the very least ffs.
Don't take Dany down a mad queen path. Make that an audience fake-out.
Give Tyrion something to do that actually works. He's been wrong and largely useless for a while now.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 09, 2019, 09:29:09 PM
Honestly, that's a lot to ask of them right now.

2 episodes left, I'm hoping for something dramatic and fun and ideally something meaningful. Just please don't let it be contrived.
One thing I look forward to seeing is how they'll divide the content of the last 2 episodes- will the big climax cover both episodes or will they have a dedicated summary/epilogue episode.


MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS.
Spoiler: ShowHide

Despite the vast differences, it's pretty interesting to piece together what could happen in future books. It's quite possible that the show suffered heavily by excising Aegon's plotline.
So potentially- Aegon arrives in Westeros. Steamrolls everyone and becomes king. Tommen and Myrcella die somehow. Cersei gets deposed and imprisoned. Dany arrives and to her dismay Aegon is already there as a beloved king. And now she has a legitimate problem- the issue of her being some foreign tyrant is far more valid. Up North, Jon comes back and secures leadership. Euron (?) brings down the wall- Jon and Dany have to focus on the WW. Euron saves Cersei/deposes Aegon (or maybe Dany gets rid of him)? Then we have the equivalent of these last couple of episodes.

There are so many branching plotlines at this point in the books that the above could be mostly wrong but I think it's somewhat logical.

No idea on what the third 'holy shit moment' could be that GRRM told D&D though.

EDIT:
It's worth mentioning that Euron is an evil pirate wizard in the books.
But considering the speediness and cloaking abilities of his fleet, show Euron may also be a wizard.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 10, 2019, 12:20:24 AM
Here's how GRRM (vaguely) characterizes the end of the show:

"The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there'll be a lot added." (source (http://mentalfloss.com/article/578205/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-ending-will-be-different))

This sounds to me like the fate and characterization of Daenerys and Jon will be the same from book to screen (or screen to book in this case).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 10, 2019, 01:52:17 AM
Yeah, definitely in terms of specific things like 'Dany's campaign unravels and she resorts to wide-scale destruction' or 'Jon becomes King/Jon dies'.
But in terms of characterisation, Book Jon and Show Jon are already very, very different and Martin will probably approach Dany's possible descent quite differently (which may be largely dependent on the abilities of her advisors and the internal conflict she faces if she has to fight the 'other dragon').

Some of the character plotlines are a bit up in the air. Sansa's will be totally different. Rickon's one will be different.
If there's one character arc/ending I want to keep from the show, it's Theon's. Not his final charge specifically but dying for Winterfell is the best way for him to go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 10, 2019, 10:57:25 AM
Good points. I guess I'll learn about those differences when I start the books again—especially curious how Jon is different. D&D openly consider Jon to be fairly dumb.

I suppose we know from the books that Sansa can't take the throne, right?

SPECULATION SPOILERS

Heard a theory about who might end up on the throne, which is supported by the betting odds and a purported leak. I won't say who it is, but I will say it might be my favorite result. They actually dropped an insanely clever hint for it in this last episode. If you want to know who it is, just google "iron throne odds."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 10, 2019, 02:33:42 PM
Is it Gendry? I see five possibilities:

—Cersei
—Daenerys
—Jon
—Sansa
—Gendry
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 10, 2019, 02:58:51 PM
Speculation spoilers:

Spoiler: ShowHide
I'm torn right now, because I want to believe I wasn't spoiled (by a random Vanity Fair article btw), but I even more desperately want it to be true because it's so perfect.

The hint they drop in Ep 4 is so significant and specific that I think you could figure it out just from that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 10, 2019, 10:56:05 PM
In case you guys haven't seen it, the new beautiful death is amazing.



Thanks for keeping the speculations as spoiler (your theories I don't mind, that I love to read actually), I'm avoiding articles, news and everything related.

Having said that, it made me mad the dumb reason Dany was ambushed by Euron, she forgot? WTF, I mean WTF!
And as pointed out by you guys here, Cersei not wiping them out here and there is also inexcusable, also, did Tyrion thought she would give up the throne just because he asked nicely?

Anyway, obviously I still love the show and have faith they will do something incredible.

And I'm with Cbrad, please FFS keep Drogon alive for these two episodes.


https://beautifuldeath.com/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 11, 2019, 12:13:09 AM
I've become more convinced with each passing hour today that this theory is true. There's just so much evidence for it. And it's so perfect that I now can't imagine the show ending another way. So yeah, I would consider it a spoiler.

I do want to dive into it a bit, though.

So... this is either a speculation spoiler or an actual future spoiler. Do not click if you want to be surprised.

Spoilers!  Future Spoilers!  This might be real!  Click at your own risk! : ShowHide
If you could think of one character to take the throne who would be both maximally satisfying and maximally surprising, who would it be? Bran, of course.

Let's ignore betting odds and potential leaks (which I haven't read). What is the textual evidence for Bran?

In 604, at 14:30, Tyrion visits Bran for a chat:

Tyrion: You know our history better than anyone. That would be useful as lord of Winterfell.
Bran: I'm not lord of Winterfell.
Tyrion: You're the only surviving true-born son of Ned Stark.
Bran: (silence)
Tyrion: You don't want it...
Bran: I don't really want anymore.

Later, at 1:01:00, Tyrion chats with Varys:

Tyrion: He [Jon] doesn't want the throne. That's why he bent the knee.
Varys: Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?
(...)
Varys: Jon's the one man alive who might be able to keep the North in the seven kingdoms [except Bran!]

Varys also talks about succession and "the rightful heir" being important. Which brings us to this:

How would Bran actually take the throne? My prediction: Dany dies, Jon survives, Jon is about to be crowned as the rightful heir... and he abdicates the throne to Bran.

Besides not wanting to rule and being drawn back to the North (as Tormund helpfully foreshadows), what on earth would give Jon the idea to abdicate the throne to his younger brother? When Jon first joined the Night's Watch, he chatted with Aemon Targaryen, who told Jon that he abdicated the throne to his younger brother.

Aemon said this: "My father was Maekar, the First of his Name. My brother Aegon reigned after him, when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called 'the Mad King'."

Two honorable and virtuous Targaryen abdicators. Aegon's abdication did not turn out so well. Jon's very well might.

Imagine having the actual Three-Eyed Raven ruling the seven kingdoms. A supernatural and potentially immortal being with no personal desire, incomprehensibly vast knowledge, and unparalleled powers of observation. Varys thinks he's the ultimate protector of the realm? Let me introduce you to the Three-Eyed freaking Raven, my friend. This is Westeros's best shot at the peace and stability that Aegon the Conqueror promised.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 11, 2019, 12:25:34 AM
Spoiler: ShowHide
It would be like letting Big Date rule countries, Bran knows everything that happened but that doesn't mean he knows how to rule or even how to process it in order to make decisions; and being a cold database, removed from humanity, can result in weird "greater good" scenarios. Sansa is way more legitimate than Bran. She actually...did political things. In my opinion, that would be a bad choice. Is it possible? Absolutely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 11, 2019, 01:04:10 AM
Spoiler: ShowHide
I'm a bit puzzled by the Bran theory. He has been largely useless in the last few eps- he seems to be uninterested in helping Jon and Dany on their fight against Cersei but for some reason he insists that Jon needs to know his heritage even if all it does is cause conflict. One could say that he is aware of a fixed timeline and only contributes when he is allowed but if that is the case, then fate is governed by morons considering his present actions.
He has no real value as a figurehead or decision-maker to the average joe. An indifferent demi-god may not make for a good ruler and he already alienates those around him. He has already rejected being Lord of Winterfell so him ending up as king would be odd.
The Bran thing could only ever work if there was a return to humanity. Otherwise he belongs in the Godswood.
I'm not sure if definite peace and stability is the expected endpoint.


Sansa is a better choice but I think she is best as Lady of Winterfell. Her story is about returning to her family, home and roots and rejecting her 'southern lady' dreams. Jon probably doesn't want kingship. Not to mention, now that's he's ostensibly fulfilled his purpose (like Mel and Beric), he could die. I think he also belongs in The North.

Cersei has to die.
I'm not too sure about Gendry either (even if he is technically the closest thing to J + D's heir because of his ancestry, plus the added benefit of being a Baratheon).

Other options: a democracy ending would be dumb but a return to independent states like in the pre-Aegon era makes a bit more sense. Especially if Jon + Dany die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 11, 2019, 10:32:27 AM
Spoiler: ShowHide
Bran may have declined being lord of Winterfell, but that only tells us he wasn't meant for that job, and that he knows Sansa was born for it.

The fact that Bran has been a bit dormant is only further evidence that he's set for a comeback. The same way Varys has been useless but will probably play a major role in this last stretch.

Bran is not apolitical. He intervenes to do what's best for the realm. Bran does not hesitate to tell people what to do when it's important, and he's perfectly capable of making decisions. He made plenty of them that specifically led to this situation where it's going to be possible for him to land in that unlikely position. He gave Arya the dagger that would kill the Night King. He helped take down Littlefinger. And in his most emphatic and insistent intervention to date, he started a chain of events that might take down Daenerys, setting the stage for Jon's abdication to him.

It's completely plausible that Bran doesn't "want" the throne but knows objectively that the Three-Eyed Raven would be the best ruler. Sure he lacks charisma and would need help interacting with mere mortals, but that's where people like Tyrion come in.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 11, 2019, 07:58:03 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fboard.theannextm.com%2Fuploads%2Fmonthly_2019_05%2FD5G-KlKW0AEsAXu.jpeg.ff1607bb23e55ba10958569dc66be193.jpeg&hash=914d4d338602b605e887e76174aad544fde2cb54)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 02:57:01 PM
On my second rewatch, I didn't dislike the episode as much.

The note they ended the episode on is fine, but I have issues with how they got there, mainly how the dragon and the rest of their army died. I think it would have felt more satisfying if they had died in the battle against the dead, instead of having that shithead Euron offing them in a blink of an eye. I agree that the battle against the dead was too easy. More people should have died..

Also think Bronn scenes is pretty horrible and meaningless this season.

Speculations:
Spoiler: ShowHide
I predicted before the season that Dany will kill Jon, but now I think it's more possible that it will be the other way around if anything. Jon didn't kill the NK, so what will his big moment be? He either becomes the king or gives the throne to Brann. That makes the most sense to me.

Dany will succeed in breaking the wheel, just not in the way we wanted her to do it
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 03:41:54 PM
Btw, does it get uploaded on the HBO streaming service the same time it's showing on TV?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
Yep, why didn't they kill the dragon in Episode 3? That's weird. They had an opportunity. It would have been better if he had really died in Episode 3 instead of dying like an after-thought with a weirdly overpowered weapon—but maybe they're all living in the Matrix and Euron has the cheatcodes...

But I guess they needed it so we understand why Daenerys can't attack with her last dragon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on May 12, 2019, 04:02:39 PM
Quote from: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
Yep, why didn't they kill the dragon in Episode 3? That's weird. They had an opportunity. It would have been better if he had really died in Episode 3 instead of dying like an after-thought with a weirdly overpowered weapon—but maybe they're all living in the Matrix and Euron has the cheatcodes...

But I guess they needed it so we understand why Daenerys can't attack with her last dragon?

This iz most definitely something that will play out differently in the books. With either Euron's horn succeeding, and he brings Cersei a dragon, or inciting a different sort of ambush.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2019, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 03:41:54 PM
Btw, does it get uploaded on the HBO streaming service the same time it's showing on TV?

Yes. It should be available immediately on streaming services, 2 hours and 15 min from now.

Quote from: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
Yep, why didn't they kill the dragon in Episode 3? That's weird. They had an opportunity. It would have been better if he had really died in Episode 3 instead of dying like an after-thought with a weirdly overpowered weapon—but maybe they're all living in the Matrix and Euron has the cheatcodes...

But I guess they needed it so we understand why Daenerys can't attack with her last dragon?

Daenerys needs to be more angry at the living. I think this works. She feels like she just keeps losing everyone she loves, she just keeps making these enormous personal sacrifices, and yet she can feel the support for her evaporating... with her dreams. That might drive a person to rage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2019, 05:45:53 PM
Daenerys needs to be more angry at the living. I think this works. She feels like she just keeps losing everyone she loves, she just keeps making these enormous personal sacrifices, and yet she can feel the support for her evaporating... with her dreams. That might drive a person to rage.

That's a good point, but you didn't think it was silly how it happened, that Euron just came out of nowhere to destroy them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2019, 07:05:47 PM
I know that didn't work for a ton of people, but it was actually really effective for me. The loss is sudden, brutal, and complete. I kind of felt Dany's shock in that moment.

Does it make sense that Euron would be able to hide those ships from her aerial view? Probably not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
It looked absolutely spectacular.

(Of course, Daenerys deciding to burn her city— especially after they've surrendered—is extremely dumb: I thought she would snap, but not after winning, you know. Anyway, if you imagine that they did the narrative work beforehand: the execution was great. I could nitpick some things they forced into the episode, but once again: all I ask is to be entertained and I was—a lot—by this episode.)

EDIT: Big fans of the show are being disappointed by the Daenerys twist, and I entirely get that it's not earned: it might be brutal if you've not made your peace with it...I totally had a "COME ON ARE YOU KIDDING ME" moment even though I knew it was coming, so if it's taking you by surprise...It looks silly that Emilia Clarke switches to the "I'm insane" acting—but she looks good doing it, they definitely should have...worked toward that in season 5 or 6...

I also had made peace with the fact that they decided that Jaime is just soooo in love with Cersei. That they even forgot that Brienne was a knight is insulting, though. They just needed her to fuck?

Another dumb thing: yes, that's why you can't shoot a dragon in the sky with these things. The scene from last week is even more stupid. Once again: it looked great in this episode. When it's an actual scene, you know...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 09:27:11 PM
I'm devastated. That was awful (in a red wedding type of way)

Holy fuck

edit: I need some time to process that. I knew it would happen, but I didn't expect to feel this bad about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 09:47:12 PM
Ok, some random thoughts anyway, because I can't sleep:

-I actually sympathised with Cersei during her final moments. What the hell?
-So the Hound saying "We can't defeat the dead" was foreshadowing Cleganebowl. The whole scene felt a bit weird, but I think I liked it?
-Euron's death was a fitting end to his arc... just awful in every way.
-I didn't like how Jamie was captured just so he could get a final moment with Tyrion, but I understand it.
-Everything else was good. It made me feel things I didn't expect at all.
-Once again, watching Dany (one of my favorites since the beginning) do that made me feel so fucking bad
-I don't think I'll rewatch this episode in a while...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 12, 2019, 09:53:37 PM
Unfortunately, right now I'm with the disappointed crowd, she went crazy in like two and a half episodes, there was no build up to take that path although I'll say this, she was betrayed by everyone around her so maybe I need to take more time to think about it.

I finally liked Tyrion, he freeing Jaime had to be a plan he shared with Daenerys right?


Before the episode I wondered if there was anything to do for Sansa, I guess right now she will make sure that everyone knows who Jon is and so I wonder if Dany will want to kill her for that, if that's what happens.


You know, the more I think about it the more I appreciate the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 12, 2019, 09:58:24 PM
Quote from: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
It looked absolutely spectacular.

Yes, there's a shot of Tyrion from behind when he sees the city in ruins that is amazing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 09:59:10 PM
Jaime being captured is another example of a character being dumb because it's convenient for the writers. Hard not to think about Bronn, too.

I didn't understand why Arya didn't kill Cersei. Literally. That was just a way for the writers to have their Jaime/Cersei death scene. Arya has as many reasons to not quicky Cersei as Daenerys has to murder everyone after winning the war.

About Tyrion: Daenerys doesn't know. He's worried about her killing him. I loved the scene. But now she won't kill him? Anyway, I can't imagine him staying Hand of the Queen. They'll do in an episode what should be a season: the war against Daenerys...

Next week:

Jon Snow: "She's not my queen. I don't love her. I want the throne."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 12, 2019, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Fernando on May 12, 2019, 09:53:37 PM
Unfortunately, right now I'm with the disappointed crowd, she went crazy in like two and a half episodes, there was no build up to take that path although I'll say this, she was betrayed by everyone around her so maybe I need to take more time to think about it.

I fundamentally disagree with this. Remember her reaction to Drogo killing her brother? This has ALWAYS been an inherent aspect of her character, it just took a specific confluence of events for it to fully emerge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 12, 2019, 10:08:55 PM
To go *that¨* crazy, though, doesn't make sense. Even the Daenerys of the book who's more selfish and impulsive wouldn't have made that decision. She's been ruthless. Never batshit crazy.

The show did in its clumsy way worked toward that ending, but JB wasn't wrong to think it wouldn't happen: they managed to make it incoherent, too. That tweets sums it up:

"Turns out that having twenty identical scenes where Tyrion goes “please don’t commit dragon war crimes” and Dany replies “hmm maybe” in different tones is not character development" https://twitter.com/fordm/status/1127776853572427776
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2019, 11:35:29 PM
This might end up being the most legendary subversion of expectations in TV history. People will hate this episode, they'll be devastated by what they're seeing, but I think this show and GRRM's story are all the more admirably audacious because of it. They gave us a conqueror to root for, and the conqueror did what conquerors do. That seems squarely in line with GRRM's worldview. All of us who rooted for Daenerys (until quite recently!) have some soul-searching to do. Heck, I was cheering even as she attacked King's Landing in this very episode. I think this gut-punch is absolutely perfect for Game of Thrones. The real world invaded our fantasy story with all its brutal consequences.

We've been viewing Daenerys with rose-colored glasses since the very beginning. Like all great villains, she sees herself as the hero, she has good in her, and she has reasons. But Daenerys is basically a fire god who's been obsessed with avenging the Targaryens since she was old enough to have such thoughts. Those passionate speeches about what was taken from her family were not put-ons—she believes that stuff to her core.

Was it a bit much? Yeah, it was a bit much. But that feels entirely on-brand.

Here's the scene that polka referenced, which they also highlight in the post-show interview:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbhv3JHkJNk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 13, 2019, 12:01:59 AM
Turns out the valonquar prophecy was pretty much true! And a whole lot of other foreshadowing:

How Game of Thrones Served up the Perfect Twist on an Old Book Prophecy (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-cersei-jaime-die-valonqar-prophecy-twist)



This is quite instructive (from Season 2):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9I0W1930FE
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 13, 2019, 12:08:07 AM
Turns out Game of Thrones and Veep were telling the same story all along: nobody who actually wants to rule should ever be allowed to.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 12:18:56 AM
It's complicated because in the books—so, in these clips adapted from the books—Daenerys is the character that burns King's Landing by pure spite, but the show in seasons 5 and 6 transformed her into a Good Compassionate Spirit who Cares about the People, and then in season 7 and 8 they gave clues for this "twist" but they never went far enough: when Daenerys is ruthless it's because she's a conqueror, yes, she kills her enemies. But she's conquered in this episode when she decides to murder her people and destroy the legacy of her family by burning these towers.

This is definitely a weird situation. I can even imagine her saying next episode: "Sorry. Blood rushed to my head" since she was saying a few scenes earlier that mercy was their strength and that she wanted to get rid of tyrans—that's not a character deciding naturally that, for whatever reason, she has to burn everything, but a mess. Just a woman losing her mind.

Having Tyrion and Jon being morons doesn't help, too. What did Jon say this season except "I love you/She's my queen/and the new one: I don't want the throne"? Why does he love her that much, by the way?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 13, 2019, 01:06:43 AM
Quote from: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 12:18:56 AMIt's complicated because in the books—so, in these clips adapted from the books—Daenerys is the character that burns King's Landing by pure spite, but the show in seasons 5 and 6 transformed her into a Good Compassionate Spirit who Cares about the People, and then in season 7 and 8 they gave clues for this "twist" but they never went far enough

I definitely sympathize with this point of view. But I think they played fair. I think having the love of the common folk was intoxicating for Daenerys. It was not her primary drive, to be clear, but it was a powerful intoxicant. Upon arriving in Westeros, that was just not a thing anymore. It was made abundantly clear to her that she could not win these people's hearts. I think she deeply believes in freeing slaves, but there are no slaves to free in Westeros. So she's left with her core drive: conquering for House Targaryen.

Quote from: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 12:18:56 AMwhen Daenerys is ruthless it's because she's a conqueror, yes, she kills her enemies. But she's conquered in this episode when she decides to murder her people and destroy the legacy of her family by burning these towers.

It was indeed a bit much. But I think she wants this victory to be so decisive, and she wants to be feared, and she wants this moment in history to never be forgotten.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 21, 2019, 10:41:37 PMThe opening scene with Daenerys berating Jaime rang just a bit false. Maybe it's being done as a political show, but she seems a little too sincere about things she doesn't really believe, as far as I know. Doesn't she actually believe Jaime was right to slay the mad king? Why does she cite her monstrous brother as a reference there? Daenerys has plenty of reason to distrust Jaime, of course, but I don't think that was expressed properly.

LOL. This is perfect. *chef's kiss*

It's almost like the mad king having gone mad was not Daenerys's primary concern.

In terms of predictions, think of it this way. How does one take down Daenerys, who has a loyal army of Unsullied and Dothraki... and a dragon? Solution: Bran wargs into the dragon and roasts the army. Jon, meanwhile, becomes the queenslayer.

(Who kills the dragon? Maybe Bronn!)

I have no idea how Arya plays into this, but it seems unlikely that they'll have her emerge from the shadows again. I suppose she could wear Greyworm's face. Really though, for this finale to have maximum power, I feel like it has to be Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 13, 2019, 01:25:06 AM
Here's a very thoughtful article from Joanna Robinson, arguing that the show put a premium on shock value by withholding some book clues about where Daenerys was headed (which speaks directly to Drenk's point).

Personally I don't mind what they did, but I understand people who do.

Why That Daenerys Turn Feels Like Such a Betrayal (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-mad-queen-daenerys-hints-clues-book-shock-betrayal)
Did the show put too much of a premium on shock?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 13, 2019, 01:51:51 AM
Well, shock has been their special weapon for the entirety of the show. They wouldn't not make use of it now.


I like the Qyburn scene in this one. That was amusingly quick.


Spoiler: ShowHide
On a sadder note, I may have been spoiled by a moron presenting leaks as their 'theories'. I would like to say 'surely not, there must be more than this' but it seems pretty consistent with this episode. And ultimately, these might just be the critical end points of the books.
So if you're going to read some moron's 'final theory' about the show before next week's finale, maybe don't.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 13, 2019, 02:02:11 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 13, 2019, 01:06:43 AM
I have no idea how Arya plays into this, but it seems unlikely that they'll have her emerge from the shadows again. I suppose she could wear Greyworm's face. Really though, for this finale to have maximum power, I feel like it has to be Jon.

Let's not make too little of the fact that the last image the episode leaves us with is Arya riding on a pale horse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 13, 2019, 09:19:49 AM
I liked the episode. I could nitpick, sure, but the faults were faults GOT has always had. Finally we get some significant deaths. I still wish that the battle against the NK had been more significant than it was, I think the whole "Scouring of the Shire" phase that's these final three episodes would have taken on a greater weight. But yeah, the show is continuing to do what it does best and worst, so at least it's consistent. The scenes with Arya on the ground as the city is destroyed around here were amazing. Like the very best of LOTR/Hobbit and Saving Private Ryan. There were a few moments where I legit thought she was a goner. Absolutely studding work. Was it just me, or did there seem to be some 9/11 references throughout? And hey, at least we could actually see everything this episode.

Other thoughts...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 13, 2019, 01:06:43 AM
It was indeed a bit much. But I think she wants this victory to be so decisive, and she wants to be feared, and she wants this moment in history to never be forgotten.

Probably the best explanation. We all knew she was going to do what she did, but the timing of it was the surprise. She's the ultimate big bad now.

As a Cersei fan, this season has been really disappointing. She just hasn't had any great scenes and was absent two whole episodes. I was really hoping she'd get at least one more major victory before the inevitable, but it seems that was given over to Euron. Interestingly, it wasn't her reunion with Jamie or their shared death that really stood out to me, it was the part right before they reunited when she walked alone across the map room. Heavily reminiscent of her walk of shame, absolutely vulnerable, yet determined to keep her head up high.

All the talk of poor battle strategy had that on my mind going in, especially when they're all standing outside the gates staring down the queen's guard. That moment when the dragon blasts through the wall was at once wonderful and terrible; the overall outcome of the episode in a single beat.

The fight between the Hound and the Mountain looked really cheap. I guess they blew their budget on the Arya scenes. Not complaining, but still.

I haven't ready any of the books yet, but this season really makes me want to. Hopefully GRRM manages to complete the series before he dies, because I'd really like to see this whole story told better than I feel the show is managing to.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 11:34:43 AM
Daenerys could have taken the throne and executed Jon and Tyrion. And then let Sansa/Bran/Arya *do* something. Jon has been such a dumbass that I don't want him to be the hero of anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 01:43:03 PM
Wow, I see a lot crazy Dany stans—you know, those who act as if she's real— saying: Well, they were not really innocent people. Love is powerful would say one of the wives in Leaving Neverland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on May 13, 2019, 02:12:06 PM
Quote from: Sleepless on May 13, 2019, 09:19:49 AMAs a Cersei fan, this season has been really disappointing. She just hasn't had any great scenes and was absent two whole episodes. I was really hoping she'd get at least one more major victory before the inevitable, but it seems that was given over to Euron.

To me this is D&D's biggest blunder this season. You have in her one of the most captivating villains not just on the show but in TV period, and you give her absolutely nothing to do (and I'm not talking about the 2 episodes of this truncated season she wasn't even in.) No final sparring or showdown with Dany or anyone else, and as a result her death scene lacked heft. She deserved better. 

Quote from: polkablues on May 13, 2019, 12:08:07 AM
Turns out Game of Thrones and Veep were telling the same story all along: nobody who actually wants to rule should ever be allowed to.

Damn you, this is perfect.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on May 13, 2019, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: GRRM for Rolling Stone The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that's become the template. I'm not sure that it's a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that. World War I is much more typical of the wars of history than World War II – the kind of war you look back afterward and say, "What the hell were we fighting for? Why did all these millions of people have to die? Was it really worth it to get rid of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, that we wiped out an entire generation, and tore up half the continent? Was the War of 1812 worth fighting? The Spanish-American War? What the hell were these people fighting for?
[...]
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That's not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo's sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 05:14:00 PM
What Daenerys did wasn't war. Even her father didn't burn cities once they had surrendered (#FireandBlood).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Robyn on May 13, 2019, 06:45:05 PM
During 7 season they made us take sides and root for different characters, and in the end, they threw this at our faces; just sheer and brutal terror, making us realise how meaningless it all was. It's a perfect ending for this show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 13, 2019, 09:07:42 PM
For some reason, I never considered this tale to be entirely nihilistic, despite all the horror that has occurred throughout. The next episode may (last time for me to make this mistake) have some sort of statement in response to all this.

Anyway, Dany's descent makes more sense (like a number of other plot points/character motivations) by including that one excised character.

Quote from: Lottery on May 09, 2019, 09:29:09 PM
MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS.
Spoiler: ShowHide
It's quite possible that the show suffered heavily by excising Aegon's plotline.
So potentially- Aegon arrives in Westeros. Steamrolls everyone and becomes king. Dany arrives and to her dismay Aegon is already there as a beloved king. And now she has a legitimate problem- the issue of her being some foreign tyrant is far more valid.

MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS.
Spoiler: ShowHide
I mean that's a pretty damn good reason for becoming unhinged. You spend your years aspiring to be the rightful Targ monarch, breaking chains and all that and then you find that there already is a beloved Targ monarch on the throne and you are considered that terrifying dragon lady with your horde of foreign barbarians (even after you help defeat the army of the dead). Makes way more sense.

And then Jon Snow is, of course, another added wrinkle to the story. 2 nephews with arguably better claims than you.


EDIT:

Also, I forgot to rage about the worthlessness of Euron and the stupidity of the beach fight. Euron's fate at the hands of Yara could have been a nice way to tie up the story of the Greyjoys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 10:41:12 PM
As much as I'm disappointed by the show, its worst offense is to make me excited for the books again: I had made my peace with them never being released.  :doh:

SPOILERS DANCE WITH DRAGONS

Spoiler: ShowHide
Do you think that Aegon is an impostor? Also: one thing that the show forgot is that it used to really think about rulers...Daenerys is entitled. Aegon is supposed to be clever, raised like a future king but also like a "normal" person.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 13, 2019, 11:05:08 PM
I'd really like to say we will get Winds in the next year or so. I know, a pretty foolish notion.

SPOILERS A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
Spoiler: ShowHide

There is a very good chance he is an imposter. But obviously, that's where the whole 'power resides where men believe it resides' comes in, it won't matter to anyone else (because they won't know) but it will matter to an increasingly skeptical Dany- imagine being upstaged by an imposter and then you might start going a bit nutso wondering 'am I an imposter?', 'is Jon Snow an imposter?'.
It would be remarkably tragic if Dany burns him and it turns out he was the real deal.

Dany and Jon have faced lots of trials which is supposed to indicate they are capable and arguably more suited for the role than Young Griff, who has been raised in a specific way but is yet to be tested. Winds will show if he is actually as capable as Varys intends him to be.

The more I think about it, it's kinda crazy how badly the writers messed up by not being able to implement him into the plot. In terms of cut material, this may have been their biggest mistake. He could still be a dead end at this stage, but him ending up as an important character  just makes so much sense considering the last two seasons.

Winds Spoilers.
In terms of proving himself, he's already taken Storm's End in the preview chapters which bodes well for him.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 14, 2019, 10:07:55 AM
You know what? I hope that Daenery's losing her shit—as dumb as it is, ultimately, for her position—works for her. She's Queen and the other can't defeat her. They fail. The end. (It doesn't mean that I am rooting for her! Weirdly, I realized that I had never been rooting for anyone: the silliness of all these people claiming the throne at the same time seemed to be the point.)

To me, Arya deciding that, yep, she doesn't need to kill Cersei is as out of character as Sansa being glad that she's been raped because that's how women become strong or something. It wasn't even written. What The Hound said made no sense. She would have died? What? No. She'd become like The Hound? No. Her list would be empty. She would feel no relief but that's another story—and Cersei is about to die, anyway, why not kill her? That's been what motivated her through all the shit she's been through.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2019, 11:10:28 AM
If I had to sum up my current feelings on the show in one sentence: At the end of the day, I deeply appreciate being challenged with morally grey characters, even if the characterization needs more time and nuance.

That said... among things I require next week, one is an explanation from Daenerys. Why did she need to murder every living civilian in the city? Why did she need to so thoroughly destroy her own capital? The duration of the massacre suggests there was either calculation or a hard and permanent turn, not a fit of rage. Curious what they'll give us.

Remember when people were worrying about this season being predictable? That's a distant memory now. I have no clue what happens next week. Even if my favorite theory is true, I have no certainty about how we get there. And it could be something completely different. I just hope it's sufficiently bananas—that is the primary thing I want out of this finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 14, 2019, 01:44:54 PM
At this point, I just hope all the people who are bitching about this last episode are still bitching when it's all over, because my spite for them has nearly eclipsed my love of the show. Basically, if I had a dragon it would be strafing the Buzzfeed offices right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 14, 2019, 02:29:06 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2019, 11:10:28 AM


That said... among things I require next week, one is an explanation from Daenerys. Why did she need to murder every living civilian in the city? Why did she need to so thoroughly destroy her own capital? The duration of the massacre suggests there was either calculation or a hard and permanent turn, not a fit of rage. Curious what they'll give us.


Quote"I don't think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did," Weiss says. "And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It's in that moment, on the walls of King's Landing, when she's looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal."

I thought she would just burn the Red Keep and Cersei in that scene, yes. And that would make sense with that déclaration. We probably won't get much explanation next week. There was no premeditation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2019, 03:42:17 PM
Right, not premeditation, but certainly a decision is being made. Taking a look at that scene (and it's a great performance), Daenerys seems to be coming to a realization. Shot #1: she looks out over the houses of King's Landing, contemplating what to do for a surprising amount of time. Shot #2: her expression is souring. Shot #3: not only is she getting mad, but her lip is quivering. Then, bells. Shot #4: Dany gazes at the Red Keep as if memories are being stirred up. Shot #5: the distinctive expression of having been wronged (she even makes a sound that's a wounded whimper!), followed by a boiling, fiery rage. A decision has been made.

This sequence has emotion, but more than that it feels like Daenerys is coalescing everything she's been through and everything she stands for. It's not impulsive. It's more like something is dawning on her, and after several seasons of walking the line, she's finally deciding who she wants to be.

I can't believe I'm talking myself into this, but Dany's turn makes a lot of sense on rewatch, and there is actually a ton of character information on screen. Pretty much all of that work is being done by the actor and the director. (Which is kind of true of this season as a whole.)

People's opinion of this moment's execution (including myself here) was colored by how difficult it was to absorb and to stomach. But I think it was actually done quite well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: SaunchSmilax on May 14, 2019, 07:20:23 PM
So many miscellaneous thoughts I can finally put into too many words 2 days later. *BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS ABOUND (but also a disguised pitch to make you want to read the books if you haven't)*

Spoiler: ShowHide
– I don't really like the "Dany breaking bad" comparisons. She never broke bad. She was always a kettle waiting to go off. She's a morally grey character like everyone else on the show (are nuanced TV characters dead now?). Granted the show made a mad dash for the finish line and spent too much time on spectacle over simple scenes of characters talking in rooms, but this was always the ending GRRM was headed for (unless he decides to burn that all up and start anew now – oh please do it George, you know you want to). I do think B&W did their best trying to plant the seeds for Dany's Targaryen rage over the years. We got her brother's golden crown scene. We got her vengeful Qarth acid trip in S2. As Joanna Robinson says, "Dany gets high off her own supply" in the final scene of S3. Then in S4 she LITERALLY CRUCIFIES people. And in S7 she torches Sam's dad and brother. Sometimes I can't tell if all the rushing (6 quick episodes instead of a slow burn of 10 makes no sense if you want to hit all these plot points) is because B&W just wanted to be done with it or if it's because HBO wanted to keep things on budget and please their AT&T corporate overlords. Regardless, Dany is much more of a Tony Soprano than a Walter White.

– I love Jeremy's analysis of the editing/shot choices in THAT scene – you know, the one that's going to win Emilia the Emmy. For me that entire scene is the embodiment of the famous "when a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin" quote. It's almost an impossible task for an actor to be asked to convince millions of non-book readers that this is a choice the real Dany would make after so little characterization this season, but Emilia once again proves how genius of a decision her last-minute casting was. Also Miguel's directorial choices here were perfect.

– Re Valonqar prophecy: I know it isn't canon in the show but I have to disagree with Joanna on this one. I don't think this prophecy is one of the misdirects we get in the books. There's really only two that GRRM continually returns to throughout the five novels – the Valonqar and the Azor Ahai prophecies. The Valonqar prophecy states that "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." I don't understand how what happens in Episode 5 qualifies as a fulfillment or twist on the prophecy. My conspiracy theory here is that GRRM politely asked B&W to purposely divert from this story beat so as not to dilute the impact of Jaime killing Cersei in the books. But in reality the decision probably boils down to the fact that B&W completely screwed up the the last 4 seasons when it comes to the relationships between the Lannister siblings. In the books Jaime and Tyrion don't part on good terms AT ALL when Jaime reveals he lied about Tyrion's first wife being a prostitute when they were younger. In fact, I would argue it's a relationship ending-conversation that they have in the books. In the show they've been in a full-on bromance ever since, so why would they write the Cersei/Jaime relationship any different? In Feast for Crows Jaime pretty much despises Cersei for her infidelity, something he knew nothing about until Tyrion spitefully told him. Anyways, if you feel let down by Jaime's storyline in the show, read the books to experience the way it should have ended, with Jaime's golden hand strangling Cersei.

– So Tyrion definitely can't be a Targaryen in the show now...But the dragon must have three heads. Does this mean Young Griff is NOT a pretender in the books??? Does that give him the best claim to the throne, or does that still reside with Jon?

– For Fire & Blood readers: naming Jon "Aegon" makes no sense when he's clearly a "Jaehaerys" am I right?

– Is it weird if I'm still holding out for Lady Stoneheart in the final ep?

– Greyworm is one of my favorite characters this season!!! I'm actually quite impressed with B&W on this. To take such a minor book character and send him on a fully fleshed-out, uplifting, and ultimately tragic journey that book readers could never have predicted is really quite impressive. I think most people were expecting him to die during The Long Night, but keeping him alive only to witness the beheading of his true love is a twist that can only be described as Martin-esque. Here's hoping Greyworm makes it to the beaches of Naarth for some much needed R&R! Also if Dany is "Tony" then, per World Forgot, that makes Greyworm her "Christopher."

**Boy Elizabeth Warren's Dany essay did not age well...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 14, 2019, 07:47:57 PM
Quote from: strandedwriter on May 14, 2019, 07:20:23 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide
So many miscellaneous thoughts I can finally put into too many words 2 days later. *BOOK SPOILERS ABOUND (but also a disguised pitch to make you want to read the books if you haven't)*

– I don't really like the "Dany breaking bad" comparisons. She never broke bad. She was always a kettle waiting to go off. She's a morally grey character like everyone else on the show (are nuanced TV characters dead now?). Granted the show made a mad dash for the finish line and spent too much time on spectacle over simple scenes of characters talking in rooms, but this was always the ending GRRM was headed for (unless he decides to burn that all up and start anew now – oh please do it George, you know you want to). I do think B&W did their best trying to plant the seeds for Dany's Targaryen rage over the years. We got her brother's golden crown scene. We got her vengeful Qarth acid trip in S2. As Joanna Robinson says, "Dany gets high off her own supply" in the final scene of S3. Then in S4 she LITERALLY CRUCIFIES people. And in S7 she torches Sam's dad and brother. Sometimes I can't tell if all the rushing (6 quick episodes instead of a slow burn of 10 makes no sense if you want to hit all these plot points) is because B&W just wanted to be done with it or if it's because HBO wanted to keep things on budget and please their AT&T corporate overlords. Regardless, Dany is much more of a Tony Soprano than a Walter White.

– I love Jeremy's analysis of the editing/shot choices in THAT scene – you know, the one that's going to win Emilia the Emmy. For me that entire scene is the embodiment of the famous "when a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin" quote. It's almost an impossible task for an actor to be asked to convince millions of non-book readers that this is a choice the real Dany would make after so little characterization this season, but Emilia once again proves how genius of a decision her last-minute casting was. Also Miguel's directorial choices here were perfect.

– Re Valonqar prophecy: I know it isn't canon in the show but I have to disagree with Joanna on this one. I don't think this prophecy is one of the misdirects we get in the books. There's really only two that GRRM continually returns to throughout the five novels – the Valonqar and the Azor Ahai prophecies. The Valonqar prophecy states that "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." I don't understand how what happens in Episode 5 qualifies as a fulfillment or twist on the prophecy. My conspiracy theory here is that GRRM politely asked B&W to purposely divert from this story beat so as not to dilute the impact of Jaime killing Cersei in the books. But in reality the decision probably boils down to the fact that B&W completely screwed up the the last 4 seasons when it comes to the relationships between the Lannister siblings. In the books Jaime and Tyrion don't part on good terms AT ALL when Jaime reveals he lied about Tyrion's first wife being a prostitute when they were younger. In fact, I would argue it's a relationship ending-conversation that they have in the books. In the show they've been in a full-on bromance ever since, so why would they write the Cersei/Jaime relationship any different? In Feast for Crows Jaime pretty much despises Cersei for her infidelity, something he knew nothing about until Tyrion spitefully told him. Anyways, if you feel let down by Jaime's storyline in the show, read the books to experience the way it should have ended, with Jaime's golden hand strangling Cersei.

– So Tyrion definitely can't be a Targaryen in the show now...But the dragon must have three heads. Does this mean Young Griff is NOT a pretender in the books??? Does that give him the best claim to the throne, or does that still reside with Jon?

– For Fire & Blood readers: naming Jon "Aegon" makes no sense when he's clearly a "Jaehaerys" am I right?

– Is it weird if I'm still holding out for Lady Stoneheart in the final ep?

– Greyworm is one of my favorite characters this season!!! I'm actually quite impressed with B&W on this. To take such a minor book character and send him on a fully fleshed-out, uplifting, and ultimately tragic journey that book readers could never have predicted is really quite impressive. I think most people were expecting him to die during The Long Night, but keeping him alive only to witness the beheading of his true love is a twist that can only be described as Martin-esque. Here's hoping Greyworm makes it to the beaches of Naarth for some much needed R&R! Also if Dany is "Tony" then, per World Forgot, that makes Greyworm her "Christopher."

**Boy Elizabeth Warren's Dany essay did not age well...

Spoiler: ShowHide

Yeah, the Dany stuff is 100% a book thing. Toasting KL is surely the third 'holy shit moment'. Martin has said there had been one huge change/twist partway through writing Winds but I don't think that this is it.

I was so certain about Jamie taking out Cersei. Perhaps this indicates that he will also lapse in the book.

I've never cared for the Tyrion Targaryen idea, it undermined the amazing Lannister relationships. In any case, Aegon can still be the third head. If he's a Blackfyre, he's still a dragon, still a Targaryen by blood.

I was a bit caught off guard by Jon being named Aegon but I've heard that that naming multiple kids in the same thing was not totally unheard of in past centuries. Jon definitely inherited some of Aegon's story as did Cersei. Maybe book Jon has no other name (which I would prefer).

Stoneheart in the books is a big question mark for me. Gotta be a good reason why Martin fought hard to have her in the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 15, 2019, 12:24:08 AM
Quote from: Robyn on May 12, 2019, 09:27:11 PM
I'm devastated. That was awful (in a red wedding type of way)

After thinking a lot about it and read all of your great takes of what happened, I no longer am disappointed, that is my state of mind and I love to be that invested in a work of fiction, as opposed to the current US politics of which I'm taking a little break, it's one awful thing after another (e.g. Georgia).

Quote from: polkablues on May 12, 2019, 10:05:21 PM
I fundamentally disagree with this. Remember her reaction to Drogo killing her brother? This has ALWAYS been an inherent aspect of her character, it just took a specific confluence of events for it to fully emerge.

Completely agree, she in fact has been merciless many times, that one was probably the first, next season she leaves Doreah locked up in Xaro's safe and for me that's a horrible way to die, way worse than just execute them.


Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2019, 03:42:17 PM
Right, not premeditation, but certainly a decision is being made. Taking a look at that scene (and it's a great performance), Daenerys seems to be coming to a realization. Shot #1: she looks out over the houses of King's Landing, contemplating what to do for a surprising amount of time. Shot #2: her expression is souring. Shot #3: not only is she getting mad, but her lip is quivering. Then, bells. Shot #4: Dany gazes at the Red Keep as if memories are being stirred up. Shot #5: the distinctive expression of having been wronged (she even makes a sound that's a wounded whimper!), followed by a boiling, fiery rage. A decision has been made.

:bravo: Upon watching again that scene you nailed it.


Quote from: Lottery on May 14, 2019, 07:47:57 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide

Yeah, the Dany stuff is 100% a book thing. Toasting KL is surely the third 'holy shit moment'. Martin has said there had been one huge change/twist partway through writing Winds but I don't think that this is it.

Stoneheart in the books is a big question mark for me. Gotta be a good reason why Martin fought hard to have her in the show.


Spoiler: ShowHide

About the huge change, I have always assumed that he's talking about Stannis death in the show and that would be the plot twist, mainly I remember him saying that after S5 ended unless I'm mistaken.

About Lady S, D&D had a great opportunity to introduce her when the Hound finds Beric and Thoros, I can't see how they could introduce her with one episode left.


Quote from: Drenk on May 13, 2019, 11:34:43 AM
Daenerys could have taken the throne and executed Jon and Tyrion. And then let Sansa/Bran/Arya *do* something. Jon has been such a dumbass that I don't want him to be the hero of anything.

Right now i have a similar reaction, I'd wish for Dany to off Jon and (probably) Tyrion and so her reign of terror begins.

I then imagine two options, one is that Arya kills an unsullied and kills Dany, but I also want her to fail, so Sansa back at Winterfell through Bran gets knowledge of the Faceless men and hires them to kill Daenerys which it isn't shown just hinted (the killing).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 15, 2019, 12:32:53 PM
Having rooted for Daenerys for so long, her turn is absolutely heartbreaking, and I don't think I'll get over that anytime soon. But that's the point, and it works. She made a horrible decision. I think a lot of people are directing their heartbreak at Dan & David & GRRM when it should be directed at Daenerys and really themselves. If I'm being honest, there were a lot of warning signs I had to overlook and try to explain away to root for Daenerys.

I even said this during Season 3, after the Red Wedding:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 01:24:29 AMI want to echo this sentiment that many people are having right now: Burn it, Daenerys. Burn it all to the ground.

Yikes!

I think it's useful to compare Dany's arc with Jaime's. They both made an effort to get in touch with their softer side, and they both relapsed. Jaime with his addiction to Cersei, obviously. Dany's relapse is a bit more complicated, since she's realizing the full potential of her wrath for the first time. With her, it's more like she flirted with temperance for far too long, and she's over it.

(Interestingly, Jaime's relapse ends up being sort of honorable.)

There are valid criticisms that I can't avoid and that I fully agree with. The show clearly prizes spectacle and shock above all else. Preserving maximum surprise means they leave you to fill in some blanks and do some work as a viewer. That's not for everyone. Also with things being a bit rushed, characterization gets messy and inconsistent here and there (thinking of Varys and Jaime).

Speaking of shaky characterization. I saw a comment on the Sansa issue from someone who was sexually abused throughout their childhood, and they actually defended the way Sansa talked about things. They put it this way: Sansa can't change what happened to her, she can't deflect it, can't reverse it, and can never fully heal from it. So she has to accept what it's done to her and attempt to turn that into a positive and empowering thing. Turning lemons into lemonade. You can either attempt to forget the trauma, or you can try to reclaim it, which is what Sansa is doing (pretty successfully). Whether the writers understand this is an open question, but apparently it does sort of track.

Quote from: strandedwriter on May 14, 2019, 07:20:23 PMSo many miscellaneous thoughts I can finally put into too many words 2 days later. *BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS ABOUND (but also a disguised pitch to make you want to read the books if you haven't)*

I read probably 1/3 of the first book a while ago but decided to stop and wait until the show was over. I plan to dive right back in, probably on Monday. Signed up for an Audible account today and got the first 2 books for free (good deal!) and will probably keep the subscription until I have everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 15, 2019, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 15, 2019, 12:32:53 PM
Speaking of shaky characterization. I saw a comment on the Sansa issue from someone who was sexually abused throughout their childhood, and they actually defended the way Sansa talked about things. They put it this way: Sansa can't change what happened to her, she can't deflect it, can't reverse it, and can never fully heal from it. So she has to accept what it's done to her and attempt to turn that into a positive and empowering thing. Turning lemons into lemonade. You can either attempt to forget the trauma, or you can try to reclaim it, which is what Sansa is doing (pretty successfully). Whether the writers understand this is an open question, but apparently it does sort of track.

There's a fine but clearly delineated difference between "I survived what happened to me and am the person I am now because I'm strong," and "I'm strong now because of what happened to me." One gives credit to the survivor, the other gives credit to the perpetrators. The way the scene was written leaned toward the wrong side of the line, whether due to sloppiness, a misunderstanding of the issue at hand, or (least likely) a deliberate choice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 15, 2019, 02:50:43 PM
Right, but the take here is that Sansa does not need to be flawless or correct in her reclaiming/recontextualization of the abuse. You could even say she's specifically allowed to delude herself into believing the event is the source of her strength or brought out her strength, even if the truth is something different. I think that's the case here. Sansa is wrong in believing her strength derives from the trauma. I think she would have grown into a powerful and resilient person anyway. But she's allowed to retcon the abuse as a way of coping with it. Because the alternative is forever mourning that it happened.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not sure I buy it (and I very much doubt the writers had this in mind), but it kind of tracks for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 16, 2019, 11:19:29 AM
Why does the show have to end with someone deserving "winning" the throne? There's been swirling speculation about who it's going to be (guilty!), various theories and conspiracy rumors, but this whole show has been about Dany's quest to reclaim the throne she believes was rightfully hers. We just saw her decisively conquer King's Landing, albeit in a style her advisors warned against, and in our eyes she's gone from a potential hero to a despot, but why does that mean that she's now not going to rule? Sure, there's ways that she could potentially be overthrown and a last-minute "happy" ending tacked on, but that's a lot of ground to cover in the final episode. I think this might well be the end: Dany is the ruler of Westeros, but she's a far cry from the ruler she - and we - hoped. We may have already witnessed the final twist in this tale, and now the dust is going to settle, and the world isn't that much of a better place than it ever was. War is hell and accomplishes nothing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 16, 2019, 12:30:07 PM
If we're going with the premise that this show prizes spectacle, and if we consider the length of the finale, I would bet on some serious developments including Daenerys being overthrown. It's not going to be a full-blown war episode (no Sapochnik, and 2 in a row are unlikely), so the spectacle needs to be plot-heavy. I'm avoiding spoilers, but I think it's safe to say a few characters in particular are due for payoffs, which would probably not be possible if Daenerys simply reigns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 16, 2019, 12:33:39 PM
The show became Daenerys centric after the writers decided to throw away everything else and not include new characters. Killing Stannis was a weird choice. It began the trend, if I remember correctly, of getting rid of everything that could really give us a game of thrones—one episode is now too short to have a real conflict with Daenerys, and they'll probably just get rid of her now that she's Evil which is not really a grey zone anymore, is it? When Cersei killed everyone, it made sense because she needed to survive and because she doesn't give a shit about the people in King's Landing. I really thought that Daenerys would lose her patience and go win the war with her dragons in Episode 4, killing, yes, enough citizens for Tyrion and Jon to be alarmed. It probably would have been less big but the beginning of Winds of Winter lasts 15 minutes and had a huge impact.
The aftermath would have involved some real scheme from Sansa/Varys, and Jon being loyal but in a Ned Stark way, not a moron way. Daenerys would not have been Hitler but people could not deny anymore that her sense of justice is warped. But I've waited so long to see the dragon(s) over King's Landing that I pretended that it wasn't awkwardly done. But now that I'm anticipating the finale I'm struggling with what appears like pure hatred for the people she wanted to free from tyranny twenty minutes before burning them. I understand that it appeared like a twist for some viewers but studying how different people would govern was one of the subjects of GoT, so you have to believe that Daenerys didn't consider that the citizens were innovent which is hard to do, or that she was so angry that she wanted to continue smashing things after her easy win, something that I could understand if she explains Sunday that she's subject to fugue states.
Also, I thought that Cersei was on a suicide mission. But apparently she believed that Euron could save her: people make fun of fanfictions on the net, but I think that even the most basic ideas don't have Cersei trusting a low-cost Pirate of the Caribbean. (They also willingly downgraded Euron. Why? I have no idea.) To have Cersei reduced in tears, surprised that she won't survive was weird...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2019, 06:32:03 PM
This is enlightening. Definitely learned a few details I did not know.

First of all, it wasn't simply that GRRM gave bullet points to D&D. They had 3 days of "story conferences."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjDentEr9c4
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 17, 2019, 06:47:47 PM
I think the endgame will be mostly the same*, yes. But as they said: the show became so different that, story-wise, they'll be two different versions. In that sense: I don't understand why they needed to learn about Martin's plan, they could have just written *their* ending, I'm sure that the character development would have been more coherent. And how can Martin give his plan almost a decade before publishing the penultimate volume* of his series? Martin has a vague idea of where he wants to end the story but he probably doesn't know, exactly, before he's writing—that's why this series became a huge monster in the first place.

Look at the first pitch from Martin for A Song of Ice and Fire in 1993:

https://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/



*We'll know at some point even if Martin never publishes Spring, which is a possibility...
* Or it might be two decades? Or never published, too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 17, 2019, 10:57:51 PM
You know, I used to think he had no idea where he was really going and he kept on adding on random plots but now I've come to realise that he knows a lot more about where he is going than he lets on. His delays and the passage of time have had a majorly negative effect on the perception of the last two books so what could be careful and intentional plotting appears to be superfluous and meandering (time will tell). As it stands, there are a few plotlines that are rather puzzling but as I've mentioned before, thanks to the show, you can make some educated guesses.

This is a pretty interesting description of his process:
Quote
For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet.

I like this approach because he's really following the character through their story in the most natural way. This is the best explanation for current delays considering the number of players in the story now.
So he's carrying all these possibilities in his head and he knows that A and B should meet at C but he needs to figure out how he can get fifty other characters/events to bring this about naturally. The showrunners don't really have the same luxury.

It would have been worthwhile to pursue a different ending it seems. They were already making mind-boggling deviations as early S5 with the Dorne storyline. Some of the current story issues appear to be the result for aiming for (GRRM's) endpoints without having the proper groundwork for it. But the finale will be here very soon, we'll see.

EDIT:

Also, someone has suggested that the trigger bells were taken from another character. It makes a whole lot of sense. Not so much for Dany though.
SPOILERS ADWD.
Spoiler: ShowHide

    Last night he'd dreamt of Stoney Sept again. Alone, with sword in hand, he ran from house to house, smashing down doors, racing up stairs, leaping from roof to roof, as his ears rang to the sound of distant bells. Deep bronze booms and silver chiming pounded through his skull, a maddening cacophony of noise that grew ever louder until it seemed as if his head would explode.

    Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts. Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert's warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 19, 2019, 08:34:24 PM
SPOILERS IT'S AIRING

"She used their innocence against me. So I butchered them when I won." Okay?

Oh, God, 30 minutes in and Jon just kills her? I've never seen a season rushed like that...

There's no story. It's a list of plot points. Why didn't they just move on with Star Wars? The dude who wrote episode 2 could have been showrunner.

IT'S DONE

What a waste.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2019, 09:43:37 PM
IT WAS PERFECT.

(Drenk, you're nuts.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 19, 2019, 10:12:17 PM
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S04E10/gVxCrqFoHhJm_szDTpDpaWeJklE=.gif)

But really, there were some pretty wonderful moments in this one. Built on a pile of moronic nonsense, yes, but I couldn't help but be swayed by it in a way. The 'finale effect', maybe. Ramin Djawadi may have expended his life force on this episode.

I mean, it wasn't entirely a waste. The show is gonna suffer on a rewatch, but there were 4 legendary seasons and there were some pretty amazing moments that occurred in the following seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 19, 2019, 10:28:35 PM
This show is obviously done by a lot of very talented persons outside of our D&D, that's why it feels like a waste of talent of money in the last stretch to me—but this show is also dense enough to be watch by different people for different reasons so it may just be a waste for me. Like the Dothrakis after my Queen has been murdered I'll just chill and go home.

I've wanted to say all season that Ramin Djawadi is the MVP of the show.

And the people who are animating Drogon are geniuses.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 19, 2019, 11:57:44 PM
I'm pretty much in agreement there.

I must say that it satiated one burning fan-wish I had. The final ending is pretty much perfect for Jon (and the show). As far as I can see, the NW punishment is mostly meaningless. He's a wildling now, possibly a new King Beyond on the Wall. The way he's gotten there over the last two seasons is questionable but this is more or less the ideal fan-service ending for me.

The Starks got a pretty good deal all things considered. And Tyrion is effectively king in a way. Pretty damn unnerved by Bran though.

EDIT:

I also nominate Arya for the best/worst line in the season 'I know a killer when I see one'. How much of a hack does one need to be to write a line like that. I think her writing has suffered the most over the last few seasons, on par with Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 20, 2019, 12:11:56 AM
Above all else, I demand a spinoff series of Arya exploring the Americas.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: wilberfan on May 20, 2019, 01:32:52 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2019, 09:43:37 PM
IT WAS PERFECT.

(Drenk, you're nuts.)


As a non-rabid fan--who gave up and skipped a couple of seasons after failing to keep track of who was pissed at whom and why--I found this very, very satisfying.  Well worth returning to the fold for this last season.

Spoiler: ShowHide
I LOVED that the throne itself was destroyed, and shouted "bravo!" at that quick shot of Dany's dragon "wings".
 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 20, 2019, 06:35:39 AM
Bran is such a puzzle even at the end. What are the limits of his powers? How much is he at the mercy of the timeline and how much is he in control? Was he actively plotting or did he just submit to the plotting that was always going to occur in the timeline? Why is destiny so nonsensical?
Also, was this some sort of long con by the COTF to put their leader/god stand-in on the throne of the humans that stole their land? Get the humans to kill off their Frankenstein monster and then subjugate them? Some form of revenge? I'll be displeased if this + NK is explicitly cleared up in the spinoff, there's a line between what to keep explicit and implicit, and this is important enough to be explained in the main series. But this is all just mad theorising. More than ever, I would really like to know what the writers were thinking in regard to Bran.
Looking back on everything, Bran being king is a bit sinister and disconcerting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 20, 2019, 10:28:04 AM
The weirdest thing is that he seemed to know it would happen? But I can swear he said this season that he can only see the past. Otherwise, he would have been waiting for everything to fuck up in order for him to be king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2019, 01:27:12 PM
Bran being able to view all of history and being able to see everything that has just happened surely gives him a godly level of predictive power. He can see the entire chessboard and watches as each piece moves. And he gives a nudge when it's necessary.

I suppose it's possible that Bran can actually see into the future, but that brings up too many questions of free will that I'm not sure this story is interested in dealing with (i.e. the future being already written).

In terms of Bran's motives, I think we're supposed to take for granted that the Three-Eyed Raven has the best interests of the realm in mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2019, 02:09:36 PM
I think this might have been one of the most well-done and satisfying episodes of the whole show, I absolutely loved it, and I'm sure I'll gush about it later. Just want to get my 2 major complaints out of the way first...

Jaime and Cersei were buried under a super shallow pile of rubble! Yikes. This is similar to the fate of the Dothraki; it seems like the previous episode was showing us more devastation than actually occurred. They could have stayed upstairs in the map room and been fine. Heck, they could have stood twenty feet away.

Tyrion is definitely mentioned in the maester's book, right? Was Sam pulling a practical joke on him there? Tyrion was not only hand of the king, he was very publicly accused by Catelyn of attempting to kill Bran, he very publicly stood trial for the murder of Joffrey, and he killed Tywin Lannister. Who, if not Tyrion, is described as doing those things in this very questionable history of Westeros?

Now, to make myself feel better...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 13, 2019, 01:06:43 AMI have no idea how Arya plays into this, but it seems unlikely that they'll have her emerge from the shadows again. I suppose she could wear Greyworm's face. Really though, for this finale to have maximum power, I feel like it has to be Jon.

Indeed.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 16, 2019, 12:30:07 PMIf we're going with the premise that this show prizes spectacle, and if we consider the length of the finale, I would bet on some serious developments including Daenerys being overthrown. It's not going to be a full-blown war episode (no Sapochnik, and 2 in a row are unlikely), so the spectacle needs to be plot-heavy. I'm avoiding spoilers, but I think it's safe to say a few characters in particular are due for payoffs, which would probably not be possible if Daenerys simply reigns.

Yep.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 30, 2019, 02:22:38 PMI think it was wise to deal with the dead in the first half of this season. You want the season, and the series, to finish with emotional character payoffs—which you don't get fighting a mysterious force of nature.

I think this ended up being 100% the case. You always need to save those really powerful character payoffs for the finale. It just works.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 11, 2019, 12:13:09 AMIf you could think of one character to take the throne who would be both maximally satisfying and maximally surprising, who would it be? Bran, of course.

Let's ignore betting odds and potential leaks (which I haven't read). What is the textual evidence for Bran?

In 604, at 14:30, Tyrion visits Bran for a chat:

Tyrion: You know our history better than anyone. That would be useful as lord of Winterfell.
Bran: I'm not lord of Winterfell.
Tyrion: You're the only surviving true-born son of Ned Stark.
Bran: (silence)
Tyrion: You don't want it...
Bran: I don't really want anymore.

Later, at 1:01:00, Tyrion chats with Varys:

Tyrion: He [Jon] doesn't want the throne. That's why he bent the knee.
Varys: Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?
(...)
Varys: Jon's the one man alive who might be able to keep the North in the seven kingdoms [except Bran!]

Varys also talks about succession and "the rightful heir" being important. Which brings us to this:

How would Bran actually take the throne? My prediction: Dany dies, Jon survives, Jon is about to be crowned as the rightful heir... and he abdicates the throne to Bran.

Besides not wanting to rule and being drawn back to the North (as Tormund helpfully foreshadows), what on earth would give Jon the idea to abdicate the throne to his younger brother? When Jon first joined the Night's Watch, he chatted with Aemon Targaryen, who told Jon that he abdicated the throne to his younger brother.

Aemon said this: "My father was Maekar, the First of his Name. My brother Aegon reigned after him, when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called 'the Mad King'."

Two honorable and virtuous Targaryen abdicators. Aegon's abdication did not turn out so well. Jon's very well might.

Imagine having the actual Three-Eyed Raven ruling the seven kingdoms. A supernatural and potentially immortal being with no personal desire, incomprehensibly vast knowledge, and unparalleled powers of observation. Varys thinks he's the ultimate protector of the realm? Let me introduce you to the Three-Eyed freaking Raven, my friend. This is Westeros's best shot at the peace and stability that Aegon the Conqueror promised.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 11, 2019, 10:32:27 AMBran may have declined being lord of Winterfell, but that only tells us he wasn't meant for that job, and that he knows Sansa was born for it.

The fact that Bran has been a bit dormant is only further evidence that he's set for a comeback. The same way Varys has been useless but will probably play a major role in this last stretch.

Bran is not apolitical. He intervenes to do what's best for the realm. Bran does not hesitate to tell people what to do when it's important, and he's perfectly capable of making decisions. He made plenty of them that specifically led to this situation where it's going to be possible for him to land in that unlikely position. He gave Arya the dagger that would kill the Night King. He helped take down Littlefinger. And in his most emphatic and insistent intervention to date, he started a chain of events that might take down Daenerys, setting the stage for Jon's abdication to him.

It's completely plausible that Bran doesn't "want" the throne but knows objectively that the Three-Eyed Raven would be the best ruler. Sure he lacks charisma and would need help interacting with mere mortals, but that's where people like Tyrion come in.

I have to say, this is my most detailed prediction ever, and I'm pretty proud of how close I got. (It's a riff on Joana Robinson's prediction (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-ending-jon-snow-north-lord-of-the-rings-iron-throne-ring-of-power?verso=true), to be fair, but still!) What I got wrong was Jon actively abdicating. It was a forced abdication resulting from total self-sacrifice—which is actually so much better.

Unfortunately, quote anything I've ever said about Daenerys, and I end up with negative internet points.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 20, 2019, 02:39:32 PM
I was overall satisfied, but the show's apparent disinterest in exploring the scope of Bran's powers and the implications thereof is perhaps its biggest remaining weakness now that it's all wrapped up. It's HEAVILY implied that he is capable of seeing the future, which means that free will is an illusion and all events are predestined to happen. That's an incredibly heavy and important issue to just shrug off. We've seen him literally affecting past events from the present; are the Tower of Joy and the creation of Hodor the only two times that has ever or will ever happen, or are there countless moments throughout their history that he had a (witting or unwitting) hand in? Does he actually care in any way about doing good, helping people, ruling justly, etc., or is he just seeing to it that events play out the way they're meant to play out? These are earth-shatteringly huge questions in the context of the overarching story, and the show seemed content to just kind of say, "Don't worry about it."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 20, 2019, 03:28:56 PM
Tyrion is more or less the King now, Bran is just a pretext. Why do he wants a Master of Whispers if he can, literally, know everything that is happening? Because he won't do or say anything: he truly doesn't care even if he promised to Sansa that he will rule. He won't. But Bran will die and they'll have someone else and it will...just be the same. (If he's the raven, he probably will live a thousand years? But even that isn't clear.)

I've also been reminded that he didn't appear for a whole season at some point. (Five, I think?)

It's also complicated to believe in Jon's self-sacrifice knowing that the Night's Watch has no reason to exist. And they know that, they make him wonder if it still exists but he doesn't get any response. It makes sense for him to go there by his own will.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 20, 2019, 08:06:36 PM
With Bran, the writers knew the implications but didn't have the balls to strongly state this about their potentially immortal, omniscient, 'ends justify the means', mind-controlling, time-warping demon god. Or they simply didn't give this enough thought. Like Martin told them but they didn't really get it and just went with it because this plot point is the answer to series-long 'who gets the throne' question. And that the other leaders so easily accepted him is a bit surprising. Either way, this isn't the sweet part of bittersweet.

Quote from: Drenk on May 20, 2019, 03:28:56 PM
It's also complicated to believe in Jon's self-sacrifice knowing that the Night's Watch has no reason to exist. And they know that, they make him wonder if it still exists but he doesn't get any response. It makes sense for him to go there by his own will.

Not to mention, the Unsullied weren't going to stay and he has Sansa and Bran to pardon him. It wasn't a real punishment. I would say he could visit Winterfell whenever he likes but in the end, it seems like he's choosing to leave the NW/the south behind and going to the place where he might find peace, so it's a bit like that lovely ending were a certain hobbit chooses to go to Valinor. He's suffered enough.

I just remembered how hilarious it was when Davos suggested that Unsullied should start a house. There were a few cartoonish moments like that one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2019, 09:04:07 PM
I don't know why people think Greyworm was the only one who wanted Jon punished. Daenerys still had loyal allies in Westeros, like the Greyjoys and Dornish, who were upset about her death. Yara tells us that in this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 20, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
I get that Yara had good reason to be loyal but I couldn't take Yara's impassioned vengeance seriously after she meekly submitted to Stark rule after Tyrion's rambling about stories. She had been granted independence earlier in the series by Dany and now she submits to the Starks instead of angrily walking out and claiming independence like Sansa. Not to mention, she should look around the city and see what freeing the city of from Cersei resulted in. Statements about freeing people from tyrants are a bit silly considering Dany's actions. But this may simply be the result of Ironborn stupidity.
Like Jaime Lannister killed the king, was pardoned and then became bodyguard for the next king (as in there's a precedent for forgiveness- I think Jaime chose to be Kingsguard for Robert). Bran and Sansa could do the same for Jon.
Loyalty to Dany doesn't mean much considering that her Dothraki horde didn't go on a killing spree, hunting down Jon, it's like a cultural thing for them. They listen to no one except Dany and themselves. Dorne is a vague nothing at this stage with their unnamed Prince. And if he's a relative of Doran, he should be pretty happy Ellaria and friends are dead.
Ultimately, I'm just happy that Jon makes the choice to go beyond the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 21, 2019, 11:37:53 AM
Quote from: polkablues on May 20, 2019, 02:39:32 PMI was overall satisfied, but the show's apparent disinterest in exploring the scope of Bran's powers and the implications thereof is perhaps its biggest remaining weakness now that it's all wrapped up. It's HEAVILY implied that he is capable of seeing the future, which means that free will is an illusion and all events are predestined to happen. That's an incredibly heavy and important issue to just shrug off. We've seen him literally affecting past events from the present; are the Tower of Joy and the creation of Hodor the only two times that has ever or will ever happen, or are there countless moments throughout their history that he had a (witting or unwitting) hand in? Does he actually care in any way about doing good, helping people, ruling justly, etc., or is he just seeing to it that events play out the way they're meant to play out? These are earth-shatteringly huge questions in the context of the overarching story, and the show seemed content to just kind of say, "Don't worry about it."

This may be a disappointment, but I think we're supposed to understand that Hodor and Tower of Joy are the only times Bran has influenced the past. He was a novice and being rushed through training. Now as the actual Three-Eyed Raven, I'm sure he's a lot more careful. You're right that it would have been nice to dive deeper into all of that. How would it actually fit into the narrative of Season 8, though, unless Bran is using time travel to ensure that everything plays out correctly? I don't think we want that, because it would rob our characters of agency in the final stretch. We do get a hint about Bran's philosophy of free will when he tells Jon "it's your choice."

Since my last post I learned that Vanity Fair was told by a show source that Bran is in fact able to see the future to some extent. Which is kind of nuts. And if that is true, they would need a whole other season to explore it. I don't think that's something you can just dip your toes into. You either leave it mysterious and unsaid or go fully off the rails.

Quote from: Lottery on May 20, 2019, 08:06:36 PMWith Bran, the writers knew the implications but didn't have the balls to strongly state this about their potentially immortal, omniscient, 'ends justify the means', mind-controlling, time-warping demon god. Or they simply didn't give this enough thought. Like Martin told them but they didn't really get it and just went with it because this plot point is the answer to series-long 'who gets the throne' question.

"Demon god" is a bit strong; I think we are really supposed to read him as benevolent. I do hope GRRM has more time to explore Bran's powers, though.

It's funny that the extent of Bran's powers is not interrogated in that meeting; it's probably in the Starks' interest to not say "FYI we might be ruling for a thousand years."

Quote from: Lottery on May 20, 2019, 09:41:46 PMI get that Yara had good reason to be loyal but I couldn't take Yara's impassioned vengeance seriously after she meekly submitted to Stark rule after Tyrion's rambling about stories. She had been granted independence earlier in the series by Dany and now she submits to the Starks instead of angrily walking out and claiming independence like Sansa. Not to mention, she should look around the city and see what freeing the city of from Cersei resulted in. Statements about freeing people from tyrants are a bit silly considering Dany's actions. But this may simply be the result of Ironborn stupidity.

I don't see any reason at all to believe Yara's deal for independence is not being honored by Bran.

I viewed Yara as ambivalent in that scene. On one hand, she is upset about her queen being assassinated, and she wasn't there to see what happened in the battle. On the other hand, she probably understands that Daenerys went too far. That reasonably adds up to ambivalence. I guess ambivalence reads as dispassion, because she's not given much time to express her feelings in the scene.

Quote from: Lottery on May 20, 2019, 08:06:36 PMAnd that the other leaders so easily accepted him is a bit surprising.

I count 16 people at the meeting, and 10 of them are either Starks or loyal to the Starks. (This is even assuming that all the people we can't identify or get a read on are NOT loyal to the Starks.) So it seems abundantly clear that a Stark is going to end up on the throne.

Bran is a fantastic choice not just for the reasons Tyrion lays out, but because there just aren't any obvious candidates present (as Edmure demonstrates), and because Bran has a claim to Winterfell that he hasn't exercised, i.e. clearly has some place in the political system if he will accept it.

This is actually a breathtaking power grab by the Starks. They pretty much rule the continent from north to south.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on May 21, 2019, 09:16:46 PM
To some he would be a bit of a demon god. He's a strange, bizarrely powerful agent from an old and ritualistic religion, previously worshipped by extinct inhuman beings. His existence/prominence could be an affront to many (including those who aye'd him, assuming they understood).
It would be both amusing and sad if the writers presented him as benevolent because they couldn't understand what makes him so sinister. I think Tyrion as Hand makes Bran play for the 'good side', otherwise I'm pretty rattled by the dude.
There's always reason to be concerned whenever time-travel/precognition/omniscience is added to stories. I generally like magic being enigmatic in stories but I would have appreciated a bit more info here.

See, I have trouble following that line of reasoning regarding Yara. Bran may have honoured Dany's promise but she did not reach out for the independence her people have desired for years- same deal with Dornish Prince. They both crumble. There's no reason for ambivalence. People are conveniently resolute and then not resolute; to hop from one plot point to the next.

And there simply is no excuse for everyone except Sansa giving into the ayes so quickly. Even if the council is stacked with Starks and friends.
The only way I can see this working is by going with the 'they're sick of conflict' reason but still, for everyone to be so speedily convinced by Tyrion is absurd. This is doubly absurd because now I'm rewatching and Tyrion's speech is seemingly directed towards the audience than the other lords who would no doubt be confused.
It's a breathtaking power grab because everyone seemingly becomes blundering fools (Edmure), submissive and lacking conviction (Yara) and lacking skepticism and/or critical thinking (everyone).
The more and more I think about the episode the sillier it gets. This sort of conclusion would have never so easily occurred earlier in the show or at all. The expedient approach to the writing has been my biggest frustration over the last 2 seasons.
I love the idea of Tyrion the prisoner, presented in front of the lords, managing to convince them and then having them pick their king. And Dinklage gives it his all. But it just doesn't work.

One thing I'm interested about is seeing how this arrangement will hold in the end. Will Bran's powers prevent his rule/the peace from being disturbed? Or will human nature prevail, and the wheel be made anew and will it continue to roll on. But I'm not sure they gave this much thought considering they have fucking Bronn on the council with all his titles.
Otherwise Bran as king is an unexpected but intriguing conclusion.

EDIT:

From GRRM.
Quote
As a producer, I've got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel.   I'm involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others.   There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced.   I've consulted on a video game out of Japan.   And then there's Meow Wolf...

This might be the first time I have truly felt a bit hopeless about the final books. I really want the guy to succeed, not for my own interest in reading the story but I want the man to see a satisfying end to his life work.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 21, 2019, 11:38:54 PM
I think I made a decent argument for it, but that summit scene has definitely been degrading in my estimation. As you say, it's silly. The way it's staged, it's as if we're supposed to believe what we're seeing is a summary of how it actually played out. Just like the battle planning scenes.

The Season 8 style is more about pace and tone than details. At some point they must have made the determination that too much detail would get in the way of their momentum. The details are something we need to fill in, sometimes just to make sense of a scene. I don't mind doing that, but clearly it's radically different from phase 1 of the show, and it has the potential to create a bit of nonsense.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2019, 01:04:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TGp6KphaK4
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2019, 06:30:12 PM
Some relevant data attached below.

This illuminates something for me. I have a strange affinity for GoT phase 2, especially these last couple seasons. (Season 7 might even be my favorite of all.) They have a particular thing, a special something that 1 through 4 just don't have. Allowing characters to bare their souls or express precisely what they're feeling in a moment without speaking a word:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2019, 07:08:13 PMI really loved this episode. It feels somewhat like a continuation of "The Dragon and the Wolf" — characters experiencing and discovering things for the first time and reuniting after ages apart, done through weighty scenes, executed brilliantly one after another, with the heaviest lifting often done wordlessly.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2019, 01:55:18 AMAs Sansa enters the crypt, the wordless exchange between her and Tyrion is just perfect. One of the highlights.

[...]

Another completely wordless exchange between Sansa and Tyrion that conveys more than any conversation could. High-level character work.

I love the talky episodes, don't get me wrong, but if given the choice I might prefer silence and visual spectacle. D&D have weaknesses, but this is probably their greatest strength.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2019, 01:05:29 PM
I remember thinking this at the time, but now someone made a thing for it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: wilberfan on June 07, 2019, 06:48:08 PM
Boogie Nights kinda made that same point, too...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 11, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
I'm on Chapter 26 of Book 1 (audiobook). It's good! Some assorted observations:

(Book spoilers)

GRRM's prose can be hit-or-miss. I'll be happy if I never hear the phrase "almost a man grown" ever again (but that seems unlikely). A lot of the characters end up sounding the same at first. That does make the exceptions stand out, though—Tyrion, King Robert, Viserys, etc.

At this point, book Jon has some muddled characterization, and I don't really find him appealing. He's mostly just an immature teenager. (I prefer show Jon, who broods more and jokes less.) He's not that different from Sansa. Speaking of which—the book's characterization of Sansa is very black-and-white so far. I can see why book readers hated her. The way she dealt with the Joffrey swordplay incident was plainly dishonorable and dishonest, whereas in the show she basically refused to participate, and you got a much better sense of her panic and feeling in over her head. Book Sansa has none of these subtleties so far; she's vacuous and selfish, and that's pretty much it.

I'm kind of blown away how faithful the first season is to the books. I can't think of a closer adaptation. The most shocking example is King Robert—that character and performance feels like it was lifted directly off the page.

So far, any significant book-to-show changes are outright improvements. The Ned/Catelyn relationship. All the dialogue in general. GRRM's dialogue barely works on the page; it would be a disaster on screen. D&D deserve a lot of credit for translating it into a style that fits TV but is as true to the spirit of the book as possible. Quite a feat.

I was hoping to get clarification on the Daenerys/Drogo relationship, but no such luck. Their first encounter is written as a sweet, flowery, even erotic scene. Drogo's gentleness and patience are described at length. The scene centers around consent and even pointedly brings the chapter to an end with Daenerys saying "yes." Okay, great. Next time we check in on the happy couple, he is raping her so hard every night that she cries herself to sleep, but even that is difficult because it hurts so much. Solution: she gradually learns to tolerate and somewhat enjoy the process. GRRM really skims over these events, so he doesn't have enough time to get too problematic, but he also doesn't give this stuff the weight it deserves. You could argue that this works, because packing so much into a sentence or two can amplify the shock value, but it also reeks of disinterest. This shortfall is only so glaring because this is Daenerys's POV chapter; it strains credulity that these events would not be central to her experience from her point of view. It seems clear that GRRM just didn't want to get into it.

I seem to have a lot of criticisms, but I'm really positive on the book. I'm eating up the details and the lore. It's all very tantalizing, and I'm sure it will continue to get richer.

The amount of foreshadowing is bonkers. I'm sure I'm looking for it, but it really is everywhere. Especially around the Starks.

I've been delighted to discover that Tyrion's relationship with Jon is a lot richer in the book. GRRM wants to be absolutely sure we understand why they are kindred spirits. Good stuff.

Ned's scene with Arya in her chambers was absolutely breathtaking. The most emotionally powerful, heartfelt scene of the book so far. To top it off, Ned actually delivers the aforementioned line: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." Oh boy did that get me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 11, 2019, 04:49:20 PM
My journey through Book 1 continues...

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on June 11, 2019, 01:34:52 PMI'll be happy if I never hear the phrase "almost a man grown" ever again (but that seems unlikely).

Oh it most certainly does not stop. Other things GRRM can't stop saying:

"Boiled leather." Boiled leather, boiled leather. Seems like 90% of armor in Westeros is boiled leather, and it always warrants a mention. I would actually like to see some leather being boiled at some point.

"Small wonder." GRRM has clearly taken a liking to this admittedly useful phrase at this point in the book.

(BOOK SPOILERS)

I'm trying to sort out the narrator's voice right now. It's not quite GRRM and not quite the POV character in question. The narrator has opinions and a point of view, evident by the way certain things are phrased. This mostly comes into play around the suffering of women. The narrator does acknowledge it, for sure, but the tone is usually one of tepid acceptance; that's just how it is in this world. I think GRRM is going for a neutrality that doesn't quite work. There are so many missed opportunities in Daenerys's point of view chapters to actually explore her point of view. Her traumatic experiences are described so briefly. GRRM might be trying to get some shock value out of that brevity, which does work sometimes, but I still feel the lack of followup.

The narrator does continue to check in with Daenerys's sex life, but it barely qualifies as being from her point of view. Instead, it's voyeuristic (and again very brief). The most recent check-in informed us that Daenerys has been exhausted from all the sex she's been having, because her pregnancy has only made Drogo hornier. Okay, but I have literally no clue what Dany's experience of this is, outside of being exhausted. (Does she enjoy it or not? Does she try to resist? How rapey is their relationship these days?) The narrator does remind us in the same chapter, though, that Daenerys has "small, tender breasts." She is by far the most sexualized character in the book. Which would be fine if her actual experience was honored or treated seriously at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on October 27, 2019, 07:16:55 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ForArya/status/1188190209583800326

The whole thread is funny.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on October 28, 2019, 10:16:00 PM
Quote from: Drenk on October 27, 2019, 07:16:55 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ForArya/status/1188190209583800326

The whole thread is funny.

The more these two talk, the less confidence I have in them.

Suddenly the super rushed last season makes sense. They keep saying they devoted 10 years of their life for this, and it was known they were beyond ready to move onto something else. I still think the choices they made as writers is what doomed the ending, but for their big twist to work, they needed more time/episodes. The entire last two seasons reads as restless writers ready to rip off the band-aid.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 29, 2019, 01:35:26 AM
D&D have exited Star Wars to focus on their Netflix stuff instead.

'Star Wars' Shocker: 'Game of Thrones' Duo Quits Planned Trilogy (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-shocker-game-thrones-duo-quits-planned-trilogy-1250666)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on July 31, 2021, 08:21:44 AM
https://twitter.com/jowrotethis/status/1420954450030522377
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2021, 10:19:18 AM
I knew what that was before I even looked. :(

I'm kind of itching for a rewatch of the final season though. I think it's probably better than its current reputation.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on July 31, 2021, 01:23:52 PM
I've started season 2 of True Detective for much the same reason. It was so dissed when it dropped I think that put me off.

Don't know when I'll rewatch Thrones but its final season is far from its worst. Episode 3 of season 8 just had expectations for Danys resolution in a diff space than the writer's room.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on October 28, 2021, 02:12:33 PM
I think I'm mainly posting this for JB at this point. Read Dance With Dragons not too long ago and the Dune franchising has had me thinking back on GoT and how "franchise" instinct betrayed its plot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hys_m3BPTS8
You can skip to round the 20minute mark unless you want the meme-y seasons recaps, which are fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGr0NRx3TKU

^ Sansa - 4:38
Bronn - 11:37
Varys - 14:04
Jon - 20:29
Tyrion - 26:41
Jaime - 33:15
Cersei - 38:38
Daenerys - 46:15
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on October 28, 2021, 02:38:34 PM
Oh, I've watched this. A long time ago*. If I remember correctly, I agreed with most of it. Always a joy to be reminded of the "sample zombie".

I've finally reached the point where I've fully abandoned GoT in all its forms because Martin has done the same.

*Pre-pandemic does feel like ages ago...