QUEER CINEMA

Started by modage, June 02, 2003, 05:33:46 PM

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godardian

So apparently, there's a big new wave of Fassbinder films coming out on Criterion DVD soon, which I'm excited for. Looks like it'll be Ali: Fear Eats the Soul, and then a trilogy of later films including The Marriage of Maria Braun.

I'm wondering who's seen anything by Fassbinder and what you made of it. It's interesting that Todd Haynes will be doing some sort of video introduction/interview to the Criterion release of Ali: Fear Eats the Soul after the success of Far from Heaven; it seems Fassbinder was obsessed with Douglas Sirk, and Haynes is obsessed with Fassbinder; Fassbinder is like the missing link between Sirk and Haynes, and wrote some very interesting essays of his own on Sirk's films.

The only films of Fassbiner's that I've seen are:

Fox and his Friends

The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant

The Marriage of Maria Braun

And I've loved them all. Fox and his Friends was exploring gay intra-community issues like class in a very perceptive way- in 1974! I usually classify it as my favorite gay film, ever. And Petra von Kant is way up there when it comes to lesbian films, too.

I'm wondering if anyone else has seen it. I thought I might float the idea of, if everyone hasn't already seen it, making it sort of a semi-formal point of discussion at some point. People could see it sometime during one week (no need to be as specific and real-time as the PTA fest they're talking about in that topic, just any time during that week) and then discuss it over that weekend. Everyone speak up if you think you can/would want to do this.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

pookiethecat

thanks godardian.  this weekend is going to be replete with some fascinating gay cinema viewing  (in between my "normal" activities like end-of-the-year parties).    

though i'm not too fond of the whole checking out a pile of gay themed movies and seeing the stares...that ever happened to anyone?  most of the time, blockbuster people are too film illiterate to even tell...like there was this one clerk who had a crush on me.  and he'd get me free movies and whatnot.  i don't think he had seen any of the titles i was renting or else he would have caught the message. :lol:
i wanna lick 'em.

godardian

Quote from: pookiethecatthanks godardian.  this weekend is going to be replete with some fascinating gay cinema viewing  (in between my "normal" activities like end-of-the-year parties).    

though i'm not too fond of the whole checking out a pile of gay themed movies and seeing the stares...that ever happened to anyone?  most of the time, blockbuster people are too film illiterate to even tell...like there was this one clerk who had a crush on me.  and he'd get me free movies and whatnot.  i don't think he had seen any of the titles i was renting or else he would have caught the message. :lol:

That, or he was having one of those wily and very unrealistic delusional fantasies straight guys can often have about girls who like girls.  :lol:

Do report back after your massive viewing. Hope I Shot Andy Warhol is among those somewhere, if you can find it... that's just riveting, in my opinion.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

jmj

Sorry G but I'll be in L.A. all next week so I won't be able to watch any Fassbinder to discuss.  I'd love to check out some when I get back though.  I'm ashamed to say that I've never set down and watched any of them.
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

pookiethecat

Quote from: godardianI hated having to go to Blockbuster. The selection sucks, the people there sucked, and the company itself sucks.

LOL, The anger seems genuine, Godardian.  I fucking hate the place myself.  Whenever someone in front of me asks the clerk for help in selecting a movie, and the clerk invariably stares back at them, dumbfounded, muttering something nonsensical, I have to fight this overwhelming urge to give the customer some good advice.  The sad thing is, I know that as soon as I turn 17, I'm working there...so...call me a hypocrite.  (I just love movies too much  :wink: ).
i wanna lick 'em.

godardian

Quote from: pookiethecat
Quote from: godardianI hated having to go to Blockbuster. The selection sucks, the people there sucked, and the company itself sucks.

LOL, The anger seems genuine, Godardian.  I fucking hate the place myself.  Whenever someone in front of me asks the clerk for help in selecting a movie, and the clerk invariably stares back at them, dumbfounded, muttering something nonsensical, I have to fight this overwhelming urge to give the customer some good advice.  The sad thing is, I know that as soon as I turn 17, I'm working there...so...call me a hypocrite.  (I just love movies too much  :wink: ).

That's cool, though. It's like you'll be going in undercover, and then- BAM! Blockbuster Conglomerate Inc. will find themselves with a real movie-lover on their hands, subverting the lackluster system from the inside. :o

JMJ- I'm sure we won't be able to get the Fassbinder thing together before you're back from your trip. I'm thinking at some point in the future. People could throw out a time they think they could do it- a couple weeks from now, a month from now- and then we could plan it for around then. I realize it's not gonna be easy for everyone to find a copy of Fox and his Friends (even if they are interested in doing this), so I'm gonna give it some time and see if anyone else expresses an interest.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

jmj

Solid...I'm down for whateva.
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

godardian

The Deep End. How could I have failed to mention The Deep End?? From 2000; Tilda Swinton is blackmailed by Goran Visjin (ER) because her son (that kid from The Virgin Suicides is having an affair with a lecher of a club owner (Josh Lucas) who dies on their property in an accident, but whom she's convinced her son has killed, and she feels she has to go to great lengths to cover it up. It's sort of Hitchcockian, sort of melodrama, sort of cool modernist.

Anyways, has anyone else seen it? I really like it. [/i]
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

MacGuffin

Quote from: godardianThe Deep End. How could I have failed to mention The Deep End?? From 2000; Tilda Swinton is blackmailed by Goran Visjin (ER) because her son (that kid from The Virgin Suicides is having an affair with a lecher of a club owner (Josh Lucas) who dies on their property in an accident, but whom she's convinced her son has killed, and she feels she has to go to great lengths to cover it up. It's sort of Hitchcockian, sort of melodrama, sort of cool modernist.

Anyways, has anyone else seen it? I really like it. [/i]

Does it really qualify as Queer Cinema though? The son just happened to be gay, and the subject matter didn't revolve around it. It's really the mother's story.
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

godardian

Quote from: MacGuffin
Quote from: godardianThe Deep End. How could I have failed to mention The Deep End?? From 2000; Tilda Swinton is blackmailed by Goran Visjin (ER) because her son (that kid from The Virgin Suicides is having an affair with a lecher of a club owner (Josh Lucas) who dies on their property in an accident, but whom she's convinced her son has killed, and she feels she has to go to great lengths to cover it up. It's sort of Hitchcockian, sort of melodrama, sort of cool modernist.

Anyways, has anyone else seen it? I really like it. [/i]

Does it really qualify as Queer Cinema though? The son just happened to be gay, and the subject matter didn't revolve around it. It's really the mother's story.

Not with a very technical definition, probably. But I thought it was interesting how the issue seemed to exist so seamlessly in the story, anyways; I'd honestly like to see more stories where the characters "just happen" to be gay. I think it's a worthy thing to talk about here, if only for the fact that it integrates the homosexuality of one character into a plot that, you're right, really doesn't revolve around it as an issue. They did play it at the LGBT film festival the year it came out, so if that committee can find a way to include it, I figure I'll give it a shot.

Wasn't it an update of a Max Ophuls film? I should know; I have the DVD, and it has a ton of extras about the inspirations/making of, etc. Lots of interesting technical stuff, too.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

©brad

the deep end was fantastic. but yea, its more of the mother's story, her relationship with that one dude.

godardian

When I said "I should know" above, I was chastising myself, not boasting. Words need so many qualifications to ever come close...
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Ghostboy

I wish I'd been able to take part in this conversation earlier! I'm pleased to see that it's mainly stayed within the realm of intelligent commentary (excluding portions of pages 4,5 and 6). So here's a bunch of responses to various things that have been brought up.

When I first saw 'Kissing Jessica Stein' last year, I really loved it; I thought it  managed to avoid the sitcom mentality that I was expecting and was a really enjoyable and honest film, and I thought the ending was great. Afterwards, though, I wondered what its politics were -- Jessica Stein has a fling with lesbianism, and then goes back to being straight.  Did I like it more because I was striaght, and was it playing things safe, trying to get a wider acceptance? Maybe, but I decided it didn't matter, because the movie was reasonably intelligent and well made and enjoyable, and represents a spectrum that I suppose can't be denied. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have experimented and gone back to their original orientation. Plus, the lesbian experience was shown as a positive thing, and the other lead female -- who used to date guys as well -- is shown at the end in a happy relationship with another woman.

On the other hand, a reprehensible movie like Boat Trip, in which Horatio Sanz apparently thinks he's gay and then eventually realizes with joy that he's straight, is marketed to appeal to  people who think being gay is either funny, gross, or both, but not much in between. I can't believe that movie was even made.

On the subject of Chasing Amy, I liked the movie a lot, but agree that the lesbian element was unnecessary, and seemed obviously the product of a guy whose POV  barely extended beyond that of a horny guy whose opinions on lesbians is that watching girls make out is TOTALLY hot.

Also, of note to myself and JMJ -- I believe a Fassbinder retrospective may be making its ways to the screens of Dallas. If not, James, let's check out a few DVDs when you get back from LA.

Yikes, this post is getting long. Anyway, there hasn't been any mention of my favorite queer film, and one that I think truly transcends the bounds of sexual orientation -- Hedwig And The Angry Inch. This movie truly connected with me on a very personal level. Anyone else like it?

godardian

Yes. Loved Hedwig the movie to death. Didn't love Hedwig on stage in NY (w/ Ally Sheedy as Hedwig, a notoriously troubled stretch of its run), but then loved it again on a small stage in Portland years later as a revival.

Anyway, I think the film is wonderful.

John Cameron Mitchell is hosting a fresh batch of weekly new-to-IFC films, including Magnolia. Should be interesting to see what he might have to say about it.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Ghostboy

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMansay what you will but man on man butt slamming will always be both funny and gross

Sure, that's a fine opinion to have. Heterosexual sex is pretty gross too, if you think about it from a technical side, and is frequently the subject of much hilarity.

But don't forget that sexual intercourse is just one element of sexuality, homo or hetero. If you have a problem with the act, fine. But don't disregard or disrespect the legitimacy of the emotions behind it.