Author Topic: Game of Thrones (spoilers)  (Read 59366 times)

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Axolotl

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #150 on: April 22, 2014, 11:12:12 AM »
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when the Dothraki took some village Dany saves the women from being taken/raped by them, she has a big confrontation with some Dothraki that challenges Drogo, that wound eventually kills him, also the witch tells Dany that she was already raped three times before she "saved" her.
Good point.
I was focused on Westeros mostly. The Dothrakis are a world away and more of a Barbaric horde that is avoided by all civilizations. 

Good call about being relegated by his father. He is the Lannister heir but he chose to be relegated. The main reason he became a kingsguard previously was so he could be close to Cersei. But what the Big Book of Kingsguard scene and his blank page on it was meant to show was that now he's increasingly concerned with his own legacy. So this wasn't the Old Jaime, Old Jaime would never have done what he did this episode, because he loved Cersei. This was new Jaime trying to sever his ties with his previous concerns.

polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #151 on: April 22, 2014, 11:27:43 AM »
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Right. Like all rape, this had more to do with power than with sex. Jaime was being swept aside, and he reasserted his power over Cercei in a terrible way. And I would absolutely agree that it represents a huge regression in Jaime's "redemption" (that word doesn't feel quite right, but whatever). If anything, it reinforces that his family brings out all the worst parts of him, and he could only ever fully redeem himself by cutting ties with them completely.
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diggler

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #152 on: April 22, 2014, 07:54:58 PM »
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I took the scene a little differently. This was Cersei exerting what little power she had left. Here she stands in front of her dead son, her father shitting on his legacy before stealing away her other son. She needs Jaime and takes advantage of the situation to exploit his love for her. She needs him to kill Tyrion, she needs him in her corner. I'm not saying she was begging to be raped right there, but it would be in character for her to realize that she could use the situation to her advantage.
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Tictacbk

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #153 on: April 22, 2014, 10:03:20 PM »
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AVClub had an article worth reading about all the rape: http://www.avclub.com/r/203499tsd

polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #154 on: April 22, 2014, 10:29:32 PM »
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My response to the chorus of "Why would they change from the way things happened in the books?": George R.R. Martin is not a very good writer. The showrunners and writing staff understand these characters and the craft of storytelling in general at a much higher level than he does. When they make changes, they make them because it enriches the story being told. The books are a template, they are not gospel.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #155 on: April 23, 2014, 12:49:23 AM »
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The Dany/Drogo consummation scene is a great example of a change that was perhaps unwise. I'm glad they mentioned it in the article.

I did read that far into the book, and I was shocked when I got to that scene, because I had seen it in the show first as a cold, savage rape on some random windy cliff. To discover it was originally this tender, erotic, consensual love scene set by a warm summer stream or whatever was a bit surprising.

I prefer that version. The fact that Dany in the show grew to love Drogo by learning to accept being raped has been for me one of the big unhelpful question marks on her character and caused me to never like Drogo.

Even if you ignore that and just view it as Dany overcoming an obstacle to grow stronger, or using her sexuality to get ahead, that's pretty cheap as character journeys go.
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polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #156 on: April 23, 2014, 12:54:41 AM »
+1
See, to me, a "tender, erotic, consensual" sex scene featuring a 13-year-old (in the books) girl who has essentially been sold into marriage is vastly more irresponsible than what the show did. The book version is just as much a rape as the show version, but at the least the show recognized the fact.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #157 on: April 23, 2014, 01:06:56 AM »
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But that might be where cultural relativism can apply to this medieval fantasy world. Age of consent norms are obviously a bit shifted.

If you think GRRM is a little messed up for writing it that way, well, probably. He's admitted that his biggest regret is making the characters too young, Daenerys in particular.

In any case, Daenerys definitely experiences it as consensual. It happens in her POV chapter. It is described with flowery, tender language literally from her point of view. Not rape.

Here's the takeaway quote from that article:

Changing a scene from consensual sex to rape is not just a pedantic issue of accuracy—it’s a problem with story. The Daenerys Targaryen who falls in love with a man who granted her respect when no one else would is different from the Daenerys Targaryen who fell in love with her rapist. It changes that relationship. (Dany falling in love with Drogo, and calling him her “sun and stars,” makes a whole lot more sense now, doesn’t it?)
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polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #158 on: April 23, 2014, 02:16:50 AM »
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But that might be where cultural relativism can apply to this medieval fantasy world. Age of consent norms are obviously a bit shifted.

Cultural relativism could apply just as easily to the show's version of the scene, too. Hell, even in the real world, marital rape was legally an oxymoron in every one of the United States until the mid-'70s.

My preference for the show's take over the book's is largely based on which one makes any damn sense to me. Dany's behavior tracks more logically with that of a completely inexperienced young girl forced into a situation beyond her control, and Drogo's behavior tracks more logically with that of the leader of a barbarian tribe of which their entire culture is based on raping and pillaging. The idea that she would go into the encounter in any mindset but abject terror, or that he would give the vaguest shit about acquiring consent (or even have apperception of the very concept) before proceeding is nonsensical to me on a character level.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #159 on: April 23, 2014, 11:48:17 AM »
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I think the show could have actually put the effort into developing those characters. Drogo and early Daenerys in the show might make some sense individually, but their romance is 100% nonsensical. You can't get around that. I even remember when Daenerys in the show referred to Drogo as "my sun and stars," because it was patently ridiculous. The fact that she would ever sincerely fall in love with TV show Drogo speaks to delusion or a victimization complex, not naivety.

The idea that she would go into the encounter in any mindset but abject terror

If you had a romance preceding and motivating the "encounter," you would not expect her to feel abject terror.

or that he would give the vaguest shit about acquiring consent (or even have apperception of the very concept)

Game of Thrones is all about shades of grey and about characters sometimes unexpectedly diverging from type. One should not have an allergic reaction to the idea of a Drogo with character nuance.

Cultural relativism could apply just as easily to the show's version of the scene, too. Hell, even in the real world, marital rape was legally an oxymoron in every one of the United States until the mid-'70s.

Since he's legitimately concerned with the experiences of his female characters, GRRM makes a pretty massive distinction between consent (which includes the Daenerys situation) and non-consent (which includes rape and marital rape).

The fact that marital rape is acceptable to many characters in this world means next to nothing, because GRRM is constantly making value judgments that the reader goes along with. There is a world of difference between the marital rape that Sansa almost experiences and the romance that Daenerys has with Drogo. That value judgment is made, and we're invited (rightly) to participate in making these value judgments.

It doesn't make any sense to suggest that cultural relativism covers both. Certainly the average slob in Westeros doesn't care whether Sansa is in love with Joffrey, but why should that infect our value judgments or make us less willing to make moral distinctions?

And that's really the greatest thing about Game of Thrones and this universe. It's not just about experiencing their crushing medieval existence and their various backward ways, it's about exceptional people breaking through it, finding dignity and honor by diverging. That's what draws us to the Starks, and that's obviously what Daenerys is all about.
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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #160 on: April 27, 2014, 04:51:52 AM »
+3

Mel

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2014, 02:34:21 AM »
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No spoilers this time, just general overview of some aspects. So far I feel that this season is very solid, enjoyed it quite a bit. One thing that is noticeable is amount of tit flashing, which was reduced or at least is less of in your face type - which is improvement I guess, since it did got tiresome at some point. I also like those CGI backdrops, I don't mind computer generated content as much, when it is in background and not foreground. Did they save some cash for VFX by not showing dragons so often? That could be the case I suppose.
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03

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2014, 04:01:18 AM »
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spoilers


kind of meh episode.
what was arya expecting to accomplish by stabbing the hound directly in his super obvious armor with a needle like sword called needle?

call me dumb but im having a little difficulty following whats going on with sansa.

sword through the mouth was awesome.
more later upon rewatch

Mel

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2014, 04:50:37 AM »
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Spoilers 4x05

call me dumb but im having a little difficulty following whats going on with sansa.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Before forced marriage, Lysa (crazy aunt) and Littlefinger had chit-chat about events that took place in the very first episode of the series. It turns out that Lysa poisoned her husband, then Hand of the King on the orders from Littlefinger (they had sexual relationship). Then she sends a letter to Catelyn informing her about suspecting poisoning of Jon Arryn, which pretty much started feud between Starks and Lannisters, which in turn started whole mess.

Not sure if you noticed, but Littlefinger telling Sansa that she is safe was pretty much a red light. At King's Landing she had some friends or at least people willing to help her: Brienne, Jaime, Tyrion, Varys, Tyrells. Then she was implicated in murder of Joffrey by gift from Littlefinger - necklace that contained poison.

Now she is all alone with crazy aunt that is jealous (she asked her outright if she fucked Littlefinger), her wacky son and Littlefinger that has some murky plans about Sansa. Very few people know that she is in the Vale, meaning that Sansa potentially could be disposed without anyone noticing (moon doors?). With nowhere to run, she if far from being safe.

Was that helpful or unnecessary?
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2014, 11:40:34 AM »
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I actually thought it was a great episode. Michelle MacLaren needs to direct everything... that was my first response.

Sansa was indeed probably safer at King's Landing. However, it's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing, and I actually do think he wants to protect her. Remember how he was with Catelyn? He may be creepy, but he's honorable in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if something happened to Lysa. Clearly Littlefinger has something else planned.
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