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Film Discussion => 2017 In Film => Topic started by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2017, 01:19:38 PM

Title: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2017, 01:19:38 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/m4qhTVs.png)


Written & Directed by Rian Johnson

Release: December 15, 2017

"Having taken her first steps into a larger world in Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015), Rey continues her epic journey with Finn, Poe, and Luke Skywalker in the next chapter of the saga."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ

Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: RegularKarate on April 14, 2017, 05:41:36 PM
Trailer is pretty formula Disney/Marvel and pretty much what I expected, but it's still cool to see.
That poster is pretty great though.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: polkablues on April 14, 2017, 06:13:24 PM
At the very least, Rian Johnson is the best visual stylist the franchise has ever had in the director's chair, by a wide margin. I don't hold any expectations that the movie will be particularly unique or risk-taking, but I have every expectation that it'll be a feast to look at.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2017, 06:28:28 PM
I have an inordinate emotional investment in Rey's character, for all the reasons I described in the Force Awakens thread. It's bad enough that I might start weeping during a training montage. So that's what I'm looking to get out of this.

But yeah, also considering that Rian Johnson is a better filmmaker than J. J. Abrams, this might end up being my favorite Star Wars movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lottery on April 14, 2017, 09:30:41 PM
Pretty dang good trailer.

I might be in the minority here, I've don't consider Rian Johnson to be a particularly special filmmaker, his television work is fantastic though. Looper had an interesting approach to the production design but I've never found him an especially compelling stylist either (there are admittedly, a number of pretty shots in that trailer). Nicely enthusiastic fellow though. And I'd rather have him over Trevorrow any day of the week.

This will probably be an enjoyable film.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: polkablues on April 14, 2017, 10:34:00 PM
I still consider Brick a masterpiece in every respect.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 09, 2017, 10:44:02 PM
Great trailer. Feels like 75% misdirection though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CbN8sfihY
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: mogwai on October 09, 2017, 11:27:09 PM
I sense a major plot twist... or maybe not.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lottery on October 09, 2017, 11:35:46 PM
I hope it is mostly misdirection because a few of those shots made me regret watching it.

It just occurred to me how soon this is coming out, TFA doesn't seem that long ago.

Very much looking forward to Mark Hamill's performance.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: polkablues on October 10, 2017, 12:01:54 AM
Very much looking forward to Mark Hamill's performance.

I'm looking forward to seeing if it's better than it seems from this trailer.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 10, 2017, 12:44:58 AM
There are some other hints in the clip below from July. Speculation spoilers.

"A story that's unexpected but right. Some of the stuff that happens, people are going to be like oh my God."

"Everything is being shifted in an opposite way to what the audience expected after 7."

"I'm hoping it'll be a little shocking, but I'm hoping it'll feel real and honest."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcuuwn_wTjg
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 10, 2017, 12:51:57 AM
Listening to this. Should be good.

Emergency Podcast: Lets Geek Out & Over Analyze The ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Trailer (http://www.slashfilm.com/emergency-podcast-lets-geek-out-over-analyze-the-star-wars-the-last-jedi-trailer/)
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 10, 2017, 01:46:55 AM
Trailer spioilers...

Conclusions:

Some people are suggesting Luke refuses to train Rey so she seeks out Snoke, but that's dumb. Seems that we've seen a lot of footage of Luke training her.

Rey gets captured by Snoke, and that's him talking to her at the beginning.

There's no way Rey is dark side at the end of this movie.

It's very possible we'll grapple with the actual meaning of balance here, through a new path that incorporates light and dark. Not sure I'm thrilled with that idea, but they could pull it off.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 20, 2017, 11:48:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4CB5SeBGkI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znKxu09P_H8
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Drenk on November 20, 2017, 12:07:39 PM
Trying to give some chronology to what we are seeing. So: spoilers if you haven't watched them.

—Rey learns to do some shit. Luke is bored.
—Space battle between The Resistance and the First Order. Kylon Ren is conflicted.
—Some flash backs and revelations. (It occurs at different times in the movie.)
—Finn and Rey having some fun adventures in a casino (what I want to see the most).
—Rey is taken prisoner! Snoke is evil! Kylo Ren is still conflicted.
—Kylon Ren is good! But is he?!!!!!
—The battle with the red dust. Finn against Silver Stormtrooper—not than anyone cares but well it will create thousands of gifs.
—Some last twist.

I'm curious to revisit this once I have seen it.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: KJ on November 20, 2017, 12:18:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmGSJdvavY
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 21, 2017, 10:20:52 PM
Really love this teaser:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44szOPIixaU
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Drenk on November 22, 2017, 10:48:30 AM
Mark Hamill's acting in these trailers and teasers seems really awkward.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on November 22, 2017, 10:58:25 AM
That is true. I'm hoping those are just his most intense moments.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Drenk on December 13, 2017, 01:23:24 PM
If you've liked The Force Awakens, you'll probably love this one.

I don't know what to think. It's like seeing two movies at once. One I like and one I don't care about. Rian Johnson manages to do some surprising things in this one. Some moments are really moving and feel epic even when the scale isn't huge. But does it make the movie good when it's drowned in an universe that became nonsense because Disney didn't think about what they were doing when they made The Force Awakens? I don't know...

It was a weird experience seeing this one. Half alive. Half dead.

About the dead part, Richard Brody wrote that line in his review of his movie and its rings very true to me:

"Now, in “The Last Jedi,” that world has been tamed, tamped down, boxed in, neatly packaged, to a chilling extreme. It fixes its heroes in an abstemious, militarized world of twenty-four-hour-a-day work for mere survival, in which no personal life remains outside the realm of official function, a de-mentalized world that the movie presents, moreover, as appealing."

Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 13, 2017, 05:21:15 PM
I'm trying to contain my excitement, but reactions like this one are not helping...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyrxVWj9_vs
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lottery on December 14, 2017, 01:56:54 AM
First half is poorly made and sticky-taped together, really poor pacing and all that. Either there were some really tough decisions in the editing room or simply the writing/structure was weak. It starts getting pretty cool midway through the movie where there are a few interesting story developments and the movie gets into a groove and things start flowing a bit better.
The new characters were one of the best things about TFA but I felt a bit uninvolved in their experiences this time round (happy to see more Poe I suppose).
There were some pretty lame attempts at humour. Levity is fine but the approach used in this film worked against it.
It's a mixed bag visually, occasionally dazzling, sometimes bland- a few scenes with that ugly TV (?) look which has been becoming more prominent in modern action films.

There was a fair bit of nonsense overall running through this movie.


I don't know man, the critical response to this film puzzles me. As does Disney's decision to give RJ an entire trilogy based off this film.
I get what Drenk means. When the credits rolled, I wasn't really sure how I felt and not in a good way. Just in a sort of 'okay..I guess' way.
Don't get me wrong, it's watchable.


MEDIUM SPOILERS


There's a scene where a certain character sacrifices themselves and this will most likely be the most visually stunning moment in RJ's career (and one of the most 'wow' moments in the franchise). Truly incredible. Too bad half of the audience were morons and were laughing at the scene for some bizarre reason.


FULL-ON SPOILERS

Seriously, what the fuck was the point of Snoke?

One of the most disappointing moments during the film was that chase scene on Casino planet, my mind began to wander and I was pretty surprised at how quickly it lost me. It was just mindless and uninteresting.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Drenk on December 14, 2017, 08:45:56 AM
Yes. I forgot to say that the pacing was weird. It's very hard to get into and is ultimately overlong—but feels rushed...There are nice transitions. But the weirdest thing is what you're talking about: it sometimes looks and feels like a Rian Johnson movie but the movie is mixed with scenes that look bland and lack tension. There is a 45 minutes cut version of that movie that I would love.

SPOILERS

DON'T READ

SERIOUSLY


I mean, the Snoke thing shows that this First Order/Rebellion thing doesn't make sense and has no reality. I like that his death is basically Johnson saying: "Fuck that" to the mystery box Abrams opened. But you have that First Order things coming out of nowhere, being an abstract threat to the galaxy. What galaxy? They wiped out the Republic because they don't want to deal with any real fight. It's not even about the weird irony of the past haunting the future. It's pure abstraction.

They even killed Phasma because they didn't care about her. She was just a cool costume. That's why it sometimes feel like homework to deal with that.

And so much of that movie is about The Resistance. The end is about the Resistance. It's...not good...

Then: everything about Rey is great. The plot twist is also a way to escape the mystery box but it's great that she has no place in this story. It's also interesting. This new trilogy tries to imitate the first one. It wants to share its blood. It doesn't. But the way of Kylo Ren is the way to be. End all that. No. Instead, you have foreigners being doomed by an heritage that isn't theirs...

One step forward. Two step backs. The movie...

END OF SPOILERS

THIS IS THE END

IT ENDED

Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: csage97 on December 15, 2017, 12:47:29 AM
Just got back from seeing it. Here are my thoughts.

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS


OK, hopefully those are enough spoiler warnings. I thought the movie was really bad on the whole. It pretty much amounted to a bad Star Wars-themed action movie, so if you're kind of indifferent to Star Wars-specific spaceships and contexts, there's really not much more there. The lightsaber fight choreography was pretty good in that fight scene in the red room, but other than that, I got bored of the endless spaceships shooting at each other and high stakes infiltrating plots. It happens in just about every Star Wars movie. Do I need to see it again? Nah. Maybe there's some slight commentary about leadership or something, but not really.

One of the biggest issues was the shallow dialogue. The diction was just awful. It's like the characters each have the vocabulary of a second grader. There was no insight into anything important (no, saying, "keep hope" or "don't fight the ones you hate, but keep the things you love" doesn't have any weight).

Mark Hamill's acting was pretty flat and awkward, and so were the scenes between him and Daisy Ridley. I didn't like John Boyega's storyline at all as it was tired and uninspired, though I could see how someone would like some of the plot details (the casino was kind of cool, I guess). And the attempts at humour .... Ugh. Just awful. Lots of people laughed, but my gosh, it was campy. Maybe I shouldn't expect more or something, but this was just crappy, trying-to-be-cheeky super cheap stuff. All throughout the movie too! Some other scenes were ultra campy as well, such as that one with Chewbacca eating at the campfire.

The movie was totally devoid of any intellect. If I didn't sound pessimistic and pretentious before, well I probably do now ... but I'm not suggesting that the film needed to be really complex or snooty or say something about the origins and history of human greed or something like that. What I would want, though, is some sort of hint of meaning beyond "do good," or "keep persisting," or at least some sort of exploration of those things with a dash of nuance. Yeah, Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker are conflicted, but there's not much nuance to any of it. It's just spelled right out and then it's back to shooting blasters. They go through a bit of change, but I don't care enough and there's no depth there anyway. Why is Kylo Ren tempted by the dark side and by Snoke? What were Snoke's motives besides controlling the galaxy and being a really, really bad scary guy? Why are the First Order and Resistance fighting anyway? Do they even have any differences other than the First Order people being mostly ugly and sort of sinister for no reason at all? There's not really any reason given for the fighting other than that both sides want some control of the galaxy, but there's no reason to full-out attack each other other than that The First Order feel like being really bad guys. Perhaps I'm trying to read too much into this and should just accept that the First Order are basically the League of Extraordinarily Evil Psychopaths whose unstated motto must be "we want to rule things and have power but we also like looking evil and killing stuff!" I get that a lot of kids are going to want to see this movie, but there can still be some bigger intellectual weight or offering of something to be learned.

The other thing is that the galaxy is hermetically sealed in The Force Awakens and this one. We're shown some citizens in a casino in this movie, in that place where that old orange bad-CGI character with the goggles lives in The Force Awakens, and on Rey's planet, but other than that, the universe is populated by a few key characters fighting for the Rebels and in the Emp -- I mean, the Resistance and the First Order.
We can probably fill in the gaps and assume that others exist out there with stakes in this conflict, but these movies rarely show it, so rather than feeling vast as the size of a galaxy should, these movies feel really boxed in to me, like everything exists in these closed-in rooms (they do spend a lot of time on spaceships, so that could be it too). They try to insert some exotic creatures here and there to show diversity and variation, but these are created with terrible CGI and end up looking really bad and computer-generated.

What else? I hate to say it, but I just didn't really think the John Williams score worked, except in a few key scenes at the end. But the instrumentation and the classic themes are so damn tired by this point. It all feels recycled and the music failed to heighten or create much emotion, other than annoyance -- and believe me, I'm a music person and really like John Williams in general.

So I think that's all I have to say. In sum, a bad Star Wars-themed mostly action movie with no depth, crappy dialogue, and just about no insight into anything (and no, a good vs. evil dichotomy is not insightful, at least not how it's presented here. In other works, I've seen suggestions about dichotomies actually explored to gain insight into something we should find meaningful, but there's none of that here). I definitely won't see the next spinoff, and I probably won't see the next main story movie in two years.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Drenk on December 15, 2017, 06:08:49 AM
THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

THE LAST SPOILER
 
THE RESISTANCE SPOILER


I entirely agree with you and that's the main issue with these movies. The First Order is an abstract threat to an abstract galaxy. If I remember correctly, the movie says that they've "won"? They are in control. Of what? From what we see the galaxy seems...fine...? The First Order is just chasing fifty people across the galaxy, seeming really worried about powerless people...? That's why it feels like watching people in a Star Wars simulation.

I also wanted to talk about the casino: I was waiting for it, thinking it would be fresh, but like Lottery said I was drifting watching it. It was so weird. Not only because Finn is now an empty vessel for cheap jokes and Rose—the new character—just spits plot at us and that they have absolutely no real moment where they talk to each other or seem to have a bond. (Remember when Finn is angry at Del Toro for taking as payment the half-moon from Rose? Why does he care that much? Who knows!) And the scenes were rushed, lifeless, with no sense of adventure...It was sad...

But I liked everything about Rey and Ren. Their fight together was epic. The shots after Dern kills herself by jumping her ship into The First Order were stunning. What the movie showed about leadership was interesting, it's too bad that Poe Dameron is an underwhelming character and that Laura Dern came out of nowhere but her last scene with Carrie Fisher—who's very good in that movie, making everything stronger and more real just by the strength of her presence—was a sweet note.

I actually don't mind if it's about repeating the past, but I wish the whole didn't feel as fake...And can a trilogy function if every movie works against the last one? That "scene" with Maz was funny—once again another "cool looking" character from The Force Awakens that was supposed to be mysterious but that is actually just...a plot faciliator...

I'll see the last one. And then the new one from Rian Johnson—since he'll be writing the first one, maybe it will be better than that...But I see in The Last Jedi how all his interesting ideas about legacy ended being wind and I don't hope too much.

Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: samsong on December 15, 2017, 07:01:06 AM
about one million times better than tfa but that's like saying HIV is better than cancer.  thankfully more like rogue one than tfa, which is to say clearly not made by jj abrams.  when johnson gets his visual daring on, which isn't often enough, it's pretty pretty pretty pretty great.  i really only ask to be amused by these things, and it sort of did that.  still a nostalgia-grubbing cash grab (obviously) but it's at least a sporadically fun action movie that's surprisingly pretty meta.  should've been 45 minutes shorter.

SPOILERS
i almost wish the movie opened with the continuation of the last scene from TFA (rey and luke coming face to face) because it would've been that much more hilarious when he throws the light sabre away.  the porgs aka this year's big star wars xmas toy were actually fairly amusing, and that weird four titted penis monster that luke milks had me thinking of rick and morty for a hot second.  that and the sphincter of darkness. 

the fin and rose stuff is such heavy-handed bullshit and hilariously inconsequential by film's end.  casino planet was especially insipid... one percenters and arms dealing/war profiteering, justin theroux, blah blah blah.  benicio del toro reprises his performance from the unusual suspects. 

kylo killing snoke and the ensuing (and only!) light sabre fight of the movie, pretty fucking great.  yoda puppet!  that scene between luke and leia was pretty loaded... wonder if that was emphasized in editing post mortem or if it always played that way.  carrie fisher's performance is far more impactful than in the last one.

anyone else feel like there was a weird pro-PETA/vegan slant in this?
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: csage97 on December 15, 2017, 04:45:33 PM
THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

THE LAST SPOILER
 
THE RESISTANCE SPOILER


I entirely agree with you and that's the main issue with these movies. The First Order is an abstract threat to an abstract galaxy. If I remember correctly, the movie says that they've "won"? They are in control. Of what? From what we see the galaxy seems...fine...? The First Order is just chasing fifty people across the galaxy, seeming really worried about powerless people...? That's why it feels like watching people in a Star Wars simulation.

I also wanted to talk about the casino: I was waiting for it, thinking it would be fresh, but like Lottery said I was drifting watching it. It was so weird. Not only because Finn is now an empty vessel for cheap jokes and Rose—the new character—just spits plot at us and that they have absolutely no real moment where they talk to each other or seem to have a bond. (Remember when Finn is angry at Del Toro for taking as payment the half-moon from Rose? Why does he care that much? Who knows!) And the scenes were rushed, lifeless, with no sense of adventure...It was sad...

But I liked everything about Rey and Ren. Their fight together was epic. The shots after Dern kills herself by jumping her ship into The First Order were stunning. What the movie showed about leadership was interesting, it's too bad that Poe Dameron is an underwhelming character and that Laura Dern came out of nowhere but her last scene with Carrie Fisher—who's very good in that movie, making everything stronger and more real just by the strength of her presence—was a sweet note.

I actually don't mind if it's about repeating the past, but I wish the whole didn't feel as fake...And can a trilogy function if every movie works against the last one? That "scene" with Maz was funny—once again another "cool looking" character from The Force Awakens that was supposed to be mysterious but that is actually just...a plot faciliator...

I'll see the last one. And then the new one from Rian Johnson—since he'll be writing the first one, maybe it will be better than that...But I see in The Last Jedi how all his interesting ideas about legacy ended being wind and I don't hope too much.

Spoilers

Spoilers

Yep ... they didn't build much of any kind of world starting with TFA and there's really no motivation behind the First Order's actions other than being Bad Guys, so they're essentially fighting for no reason over a galaxy that practically doesn't exist. What am I supposed to care about? They offer up mostly flat characters built for lame jokes and plot exposition instead. And yes, the Rebellion is this small rag-tag group. Don't you think if the stakes were so high in this battle and the galaxy were so large, the good guys could put together some kind of military force? I guess it's basically just 50 people trying to protect the whole good galaxy (who knows?) from the big evil guys who just really need to off these pesky resistance folk. One thing I liked about Rogue One was that they actually showed people living in a city on a planet with some infrastructure to produce machinery and stuff. Where does the Rebellion get their production materials from for all their ships and stuff? Was it inherited or salvaged from years past? It all just kind of appears with no explanation and then exists in this vacuum.

Rian Johnson may have stuff to say about legacy, but then some of these new characters are going through the motions of plot while the others are simply tossed away or used only as plot devices. Snoke, this great mystery baddy from TFA, turned out to be just this ugly ass motherfu**er who somehow emerged as Supreme Leader and then got tossed in the trash to advance Ren's story. What a waste. And yeah, Moz's only function was in this one was a plot device. Rey and Ren were sort of the only characters who weren't only put through plot exposition (and I guess Luke Skywalker). I did like Adam Driver's acting, and I think the best part of the movie was maybe Ren's and Rey's meta back and forth thing. Driver was good in those scenes. I don't like Daisy Ridley's acting much, but that's a personal thing, I guess. The fight together was cool, and could very well be the best part of movie if not the meta communication thing.

Now Finn in this movie, on the other hand, was just horrendous. The character has indeed become a lame empty vessel for cheap jokes. He has this earnestness of a 15 year old that just bugs me. And that's the depth of his character in this movie. Edit: And yes, the new Rose character was also a miss and the end scene between her and Finn sort of baffled me.

I was never too invested in Star Wars from the outset, but my big negative reaction is that I just don't feel there's enough substance to this whole endeavour. I feel like my time was wasted on a bad film that should promise more as a big franchise in pop culture, or at least aim for higher standards. In my mind, there was the opportunity to do something with more substance but still retain the special effects and the entertaining action sequences. What makes these movies better than a Michael Bay movie?
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: WorldForgot on December 15, 2017, 04:49:48 PM

SPOILERS

anyone else feel like there was a weird pro-PETA/vegan slant in this?


Without a doubt, but for a  vegetarian  it'll just go with the entire empathy/integrity construct this film is aiming for.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eward on December 16, 2017, 11:15:40 AM
Jesus this was rough going. I felt absolutely nothing the entire run time. And I very much enjoyed The Force Awakens, but perhaps I was simply overjoyed to see the original cast all back and functioning in a semi-familiar way? This was just lazy and cobbled together. My interest in seeing the next one is pretty much zero at this point.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 17, 2017, 12:40:49 AM
You guys are off your rockers. This is the best Star Wars movie.

I instantly fell for The Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi is growing on me minute by minute. Sure it's a bit cheeseball, and some things are a bit spelled-out, but that's Star Wars. This is the best-made, most visually poetic, most subversive, most thematically mature film in the entire franchise.

SPOILERS

My only major problem with The Force Awakens was the way mass casualty was handled, which is to say... barely commented upon. By contrast, in The Last Jedi the loss of human life has a sharply-felt cost, from beginning to end, over and over again. We are continuously confronted with that gut-punch of death as the rebels suffer loss after loss. I still love TFA, but this felt so much more real.

Truly bizarre to see the complaints here about the twists and swerves. I thoroughly enjoyed having my expectations upended. They played fair, and each one was meaningful and felt right. One of the themes here, obviously, is "out with the old and in with the new." The movie tells us quite clearly: Kylo is not the new Darth Vader, and Snoke is not the new Emperor. It even attempts to upend what it means to be a hero, or whether traditional heroics are even useful right now — Poe's actions were actually kind of reckless and cost lives (and he has to reckon with that), and they do not allow Finn to martyr himself. The Last Jedi is a self-interrogating machine that is also somehow emphatically true to Star Wars.

When I saw The Force Awakens, I argued that Rey was a better character than Luke Skywalker. Now they've sort of brought them to the same level — Luke has never been more interesting, and Mark Hamill (to my actual surprise) has never played him better. I was ready to groan at Luke rejecting the quest, but he did it in a fairly interesting way, constantly and increasingly torn about what to do with her. Funny that people think this was too long, because I could have used another 20 minutes of Rey. What we got was pretty great, though.

Everything with Luke at the end was completely magnificent. The two suns setting — that killed me.

Here's what I said about Rey's parentage after I saw TFA:

I very much hope that Rey is not Luke's daughter. That would be most boring and widely-predicted outcome. Shouldn't they upend that expectation? . . . I'm much more fascinated with the idea that there are a select few people out there with whom the force is strong, and that in the right circumstances they can awaken it. We don't need yet another descendent of Anakin Skywalker.

So obviously I'm very, very happy with this. It imbues with more meaning and fully crystallizes Rey's origin story, which is definitely one of the best stories in the saga.

I love this film so much, I honestly hesitate to engage with criticisms, but I'll do a little...

The First Order is just chasing fifty people across the galaxy, seeming really worried about powerless people...?

Clearly the rebellion is not powerless. The First Order correctly recognizes that the leadership has to be wiped out, because they have decades of experience running and hiding, and a lot of these people helped take down the Empire. The First Order also correctly recognizes that the rebellion's message is powerful, and dangerous if it spreads, and they already have allies throughout the galaxy who will activate if there is enough hope. That's all in the movie. I don't understand your argument here.

I mean, the Snoke thing shows that this First Order/Rebellion thing doesn't make sense and has no reality. I like that his death is basically Johnson saying: "Fuck that" to the mystery box Abrams opened. But you have that First Order things coming out of nowhere, being an abstract threat to the galaxy. What galaxy? They wiped out the Republic because they don't want to deal with any real fight. It's not even about the weird irony of the past haunting the future. It's pure abstraction.

Pure abstraction? Did you not see them blowing up planets in The Force Awakens? There are still plenty more populated planets in the galaxy. We saw one of them in this movie and several in The Force Awakens. I for one am glad they allowed for some serialization — the First Order is on a particular mission here. We don't need to be shown everything they do all over again in every movie.

Then: everything about Rey is great. The plot twist is also a way to escape the mystery box but it's great that she has no place in this story. It's also interesting.

Yikes. I think you completely misinterpreted that. Or are you joking?

Yep ... they didn't build much of any kind of world starting with TFA and there's really no motivation behind the First Order's actions other than being Bad Guys, so they're essentially fighting for no reason over a galaxy that practically doesn't exist. What am I supposed to care about?

The wonderful and perhaps unfair thing about Star Wars is that each movie can stand on the shoulders of what's come before. This universe is not built in one installment. You do understand it's the same universe you've seen in all the other films.

The First Order wants to dominate the galaxy for the same reason any conquering army ever takes over anything — resources, wealth, power, and the perpetuation thereof. As for why they're evil — there is a dark side of the force, Snoke wielded the dark side, and he built the First Order.

I'm honestly not sure which parts of these arguments are sincere.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lottery on December 17, 2017, 01:35:44 AM
I instantly fell for The Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi is growing on me minute by minute. Sure it's a bit cheeseball, and some things are a bit spelled-out, but that's Star Wars. This is the best-made, most visually poetic, most subversive, most thematically mature film in the entire franchise.

I liked some of the developments that occurred in the film, some of them were real gutsy but as a whole, this movie remained largely unsatisfying.
Personally, I can't say that this a particularly well made movie. I went back and had quick skim through the original trilogy just to check if they were as well-crafted as I remember them to be and they really are. Well-paced, well-structured, clean compositions an appropriate dose of humour. But this one- horrendous pacing, an abundance of jarring lame jokes, a total mixed bag of visuals amongst a few other disappointing things. All the new films have their issues but this one might be the weakest in terms of craftsmanship. In regard to consistency at least.
I can appreciate thematic strength and maturity, subversive plot elements and all that good stuff but the filmmaking was not at a level which made those things particularly enjoyable.

I maintain that AoTC is the only truly, truly bad SW film but this one is certainly one of the lesser stories. While the quality of the prequel trilogy is questionable, I reckon it's going to end up as a far more memorable experience than this generation's set of SW films.

EDIT:

Perhaps that's a bit harsh (in regard to the craftsmanship). Sometimes the movie works rather well but when it slips up, it slips up really badly making the lack of consistent quality rather alarming/egregious.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 17, 2017, 01:47:58 AM
I probably went too far with “most visually poetic,” but the experience you describe is completely alien to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: wilberfan on December 20, 2017, 05:33:38 PM
Well, I just got back from seeing this--having gone in with neutral expectations, to be honest.  I'm not a rabid fan, and don't know (and can't remember) all the finer points of various backstories and characters, etc.

But I had a really great time.  Thoroughly enjoyed myself--which, now that I think about it-- is all I really expect from a film like this.  Thrill me, make me laugh, move me a couple of times--we're good. 

So I guess it's just Jeremy and I in the thumbs-up column so far on this one? 

I actually teared-up on at least 4 occasions, which really surprised me.  And possibly my new Favorite Death Scene ever.  I loved the humor and found myself really admiring the casting/performance of Daisy.  None of the performances rang false for me, although Laura Dern's face has some weird angles/proportions to me that I find distracting sometimes.   There was one visual/lack-of-audio moment that made me audibly go "Woah...".

I liked TFA enough to have watched it three times -- and I liked this a lot more.   So this defintely goes in the plus column for me.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: WorldForgot on December 20, 2017, 05:57:14 PM

So I guess it's just Jeremy and I in the thumbs-up column so far on this one? 


Personally adored this as an entry in the franchise, particularly appreciate the leaps it takes in piloting the SW Cinematic Universe away from the Skywalkers and closer to an extended universe.

Although, like with the Prequels before 'em. these new SW entries aren't the sort of film that I feel inspired to defend or consider at length. Now... Star Wars video games on the other hand... there we have some ripe discourse material...
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 22, 2017, 12:11:10 PM
No exaggeration, this is the best podcast episode I've listened to all year:


The /Filmcast: Bonus Ep. – Star Wars: The Last Jedi Post-mortem

http://www.slashfilm.com/the-filmcast-bonus-ep-star-wars-the-last-jedi-post-mortem/

In this spoiler-filled discussion of The Last Jedi, David, Devindra, and Jeff Cannata are joined by Lindsey Romain to discuss the polarizing reaction to the latest Star Wars film, and to dive into some of the more contentious plot points.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: wilberfan on December 22, 2017, 03:10:01 PM
Listening to it as we speak... Only saw the film two days ago--this is the first podcast I happened to select to listen to.  Glad I picked a good one.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: brockly on December 22, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
it’s been a long time since i’ve had any real desire to get my thoughts down for a movie, and it's kind of weird that a movie i don’t think is particularly good has really given me the urge to do so. but i find the reactions and discussions surrounding TLJ more fascinating than the movie itself. i’ve always had a soft spot for the OG series, and the older i get and the more distant i become from movies i loved growing up, A New Hope and especially Empire have really held up. and in terms of the new films, i like TFA quite a bit and pretty much love Rogue One. both are flawed but i think the reason i responded to one more positively than the other is the same reason i responded rather negatively to TLJ, and thats tone. i don't think every SW film needs to be dark and gritty. i’m fine with bad jokes, silliness and cheese but they dial it up to 10 in this movie and what’s worse is these moments don’t mesh at all with the plot. i had similar problems during parts of TFA, but not to this extent. a lot of film lovers and intelligent people seem to love this movie, which is great, but i’m curious as to why this movie is getting a pass on that front. this to me is more interesting than the film itself.

i don’t hate the movie. i think there’s a lot to like and there are a few great moments. i also think Rian is a super talented guy who brought some interesting ideas. i’m just baffled by many of the choices he made and how unfocused the film is as a whole.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 22, 2017, 07:01:10 PM
it’s been a long time since i’ve had any real desire to get my thoughts down for a movie, and it's kind of weird that a movie i don’t think is particularly good has really given me the urge to do so. but i find the reactions and discussions surrounding TLJ more fascinating than the movie itself. i’ve always had a soft spot for the OG series, and the older i get and the more distant i become from movies i loved growing up, A New Hope and especially Empire have really held up. and in terms of the new films, i like TFA quite a bit and pretty much love Rogue One. both are flawed but i think the reason i responded to one more positively than the other is the same reason i responded rather negatively to TLJ, and thats tone. i don't think every SW film needs to be dark and gritty. i’m fine with bad jokes, silliness and cheese but they dial it up to 10 in this movie and what’s worse is these moments don’t mesh at all with the plot. i had similar problems during parts of TFA, but not to this extent. a lot of film lovers and intelligent people seem to love this movie, which is great, but i’m curious as to why this movie is getting a pass on that front. this to me is more interesting than the film itself.

i don’t hate the movie. i think there’s a lot to like and there are a few great moments. i also think Rian is a super talented guy who brought some interesting ideas. i’m just baffled by many of the choices he made and how unfocused the film is as a whole.

(SPOILERS)

The sense of humor argument I think is the weakest one leveled against this movie. The Last Jedi has funny moments and scenes sprinkled throughout, but they serve as a reprieve from the brooding and the continuous loss of life. A New Hope, though, has goofiness running through its veins.

It's interesting that so many Rogue One fans seem to dislike The Last Jedi. (I thought Rogue One was really terrible for at least the first hour, and my estimation of the movie continues to deteriorate.) If I were to guess, I think it's that The Last Jedi favors character moments above all else, while Rogue One is concerned with tone and plot and skips a lot of characterization.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: wilberfan on December 22, 2017, 07:33:59 PM
Were fan debates as vociferous as this during each release of the original trilogy, or is this a new phenomenon that began with...Episode I?  I get the sense going forward that every subsequent Star Wars film will please some and piss-off others.  (Or is that part of the fun of being a fan?)
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: brockly on December 22, 2017, 08:00:41 PM
The sense of humor argument I think is the weakest one leveled against this movie. The Last Jedi has funny moments and scenes sprinkled throughout, but they serve as a reprieve from the brooding and the continuous loss of life. A New Hope, though, has goofiness running through its veins.

A New Hope is goofy for sure, and i think that movie is kind of a miracle to be as good as it is, so maybe i overlook much of the goofiness for that reason. but TLJ is in a whole other galaxy of goof.

It's interesting that so many Rogue One fans seem to dislike The Last Jedi. (I thought Rogue One was really terrible for at least the first hour, and my estimation of the movie continues to deteriorate.) If I were to guess, I think it's that The Last Jedi favors character moments above all else, while Rogue One is concerned with tone and plot and skips a lot of characterization.

i know forgettable characters are the biggest problem people have with Rogue One, and i agree its a big problem. i still feel the movie as a whole is more focused than TFA and TLJ. and i'd like to reiterate: my feelings about TLJ are frustrating because i really like individual moments and ideas.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Alexandro on December 28, 2017, 11:38:05 PM
I don't know, people. I thought it could be about 15 minutes shorter, maybe 20. But other than that I quite enjoyed the ride and was moved by a lot of small and big things. I actually liked how BIG and ample in scope the Rey/Luke/Ren stuff is (in terms of cosmic questionings and soul searching) in contrast to the almost laughable "baby steps" mission Finn and all the others seem to be involved. It's like a massive "what's my place in the universe?/me and the sea and the sky" meditation, going back and forth with matters of such inmediate urgency that feel like looking at little problems with big consequences under a miscroscope. I actually laughed out loud when they started to narrate their plan and then had to repeat it because it was just bananas they even tried it in the first place.

I think the theme of new vs. old is what will define the trilogy and in this film they found ways to make it integral in every storyline and it's clever how that puts us in an ambivalent POV. So even if it's all done in this cheesy b movie language there are interesting notions and surprises which made me, at least, care for the whole thing.

It's weird how Adam Driver is kind of rocking with this role. Never would have guessed it, but you can sense his feelings of inadequacy and confusion bubbling under the surface at all times.

I appreciated the - yeah I know, but it was surprising - superficial musings on heroism, human costs of battle, the tragedy of idealism as an impossibility, the passing of time as part of the force....

Really, I'm baffled by the negative reaction here and in general. I wish the prequels were this accomplished, and to be honest I'm enjoying these more than the originals.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jenkins on January 06, 2018, 08:10:58 PM
this is my favorite thing i've read about this movie btw

(https://i.imgur.com/caYXURC.png?1)
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Drenk on January 06, 2018, 09:07:04 PM
That's the idea. Except there's no sense of history and The First Order looks like they're cosplaying The Empire. There's nothing neo in that.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: pete on January 12, 2018, 12:46:24 AM
the defense for this film are some of the most long-winded and hyperbolical goings I have ever seen (or at least since Mother?) - it's like people just can't be honest with themselves. Nobody seemed to enjoy the film as a film but everyone so badly wanted to read into everything it's lacking and grade this film on a curve that no other film has ever benefitted from from the general public.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 25, 2018, 12:22:00 PM
Slashfilmcast has a spectacularly good interview with Rian Johnson. They go way back with him, so they're comfortable asking him a lot of questions that most interviewers won't. (You can actually sort of tell which questions he's hearing for the first time.) They even get into the nerdy nitpicks — and Rian has great answers.

http://www.slashfilm.com/filmcast-ep-451-an-evening-with-rian-johnson-director-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi/

It's actually kind of shocking to hear how much creative independence he had writing the script. Even I assumed it was more of a committee type of thing, but he goes into detail, and it wasn't. Basically it worked like this:

- Rian pitched TLJ as an almost entirely character-based film, and Lucasfilm liked that
- They gave him the Force Awakens script to read
- He got to see Force Awakens dailies
- As he was writing, he elected to stop by Lucasfilm twice a week to walk them through his process, so his decisions would be less shocking to them and they could feel involved

Brilliant, really.

Rian has no involvement in the third one, which is disappointing, but I trust JJ will deliver on the characters he created.
Title: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: wilberfan on February 22, 2018, 01:27:07 AM
Fascinating documentary short about the sound design, mixing, editing, foley, etc, for The Last Jedi.  Some of the objects used in the foley recording are particularly interesting.


http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/video/force-sound-creating-sounds-galaxy-53204229