Game of Thrones (spoilers)

[RegularKarate]

I like all this member number talk (seriously). But can we keep the leaked episode talk down to a minimum? I'm one of those assholes who considers stuff like it being an episode worth losing your shit over, and even being an episode you wouldn't want spoiled...to be a spoiler. Excited for Sunday!

I am also one of those assholes. Please don't discuss leaks in any way.

[polkablues]

Those of us waiting until Sunday should probably just stay out of this thread altogether until then.

[Kal]

Alright everyone relax. If every episode didn't have something important at this point I don't know why anyone would be watching...

We'll discuss tomorrow.

[Drenk]

An article written last year.

"The creators of Game of Thrones also struggle with these multiple contexts, and their struggles are often direct causes of the story’s controversies. For the author, George R.R. Martin, the issue is this: how do you take a series whose momentum is based on sabotaging how stories are supposed to work…and then make the story work? His inability to answer this successfully is, in my opinion, the most likely cause of his later novels taking three times longer to come out than his earlier ones. There isn’t an answer, I suspect, and diminishing returns are inevitable.
For the television series, it’s more complicated. The crucial question is this: How do you take a story that’s written as a deliberate repudiation of 1990s fantasy norms and make it work, twenty years later, with an audience that didn’t necessarily grow up with Terry Brooks and Robert Jordan novels? The story is generally strong enough that it’s managed to survive and thrive; the failures of the Starks are not just reversals of fantasy convention but overall storytelling convention. But the longer the series goes, the less able it is to draw upon such clear subversions."

https://medium.com/@RowanKaiser/in-conclusion-game-of-thrones-is-a-franchise-of-contrasts-3bc9bd8f4f40

[Lottery]

A lot of folks aren't happy with this episode it seems. At this point, I can definitely understand the concerns regarding writing quality but it still remains a largely enjoyable show.

Winterfell has been awful for the second half of the season, there better be an awesome payoff for all of this foolishness (I'm hoping that in giving Sansa the knife, Arya in her own weird way shown her trust of Sansa). I reckon Arya's story peaked in S4 while Sansa's S6 onwards has been enjoyable to watch. Unfortunate to see Sansa in such a lame storyline.

Anyway, the main component of the episode. So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes. I'm, of course, very iffy on marathon Gendry, supersonic Ravens, nick-of-time Dany. Pacing has been a matter of discussion this season and I thought this episode would avoid those issues but I guess not. It's sad that Thoros died- and I suppose his death was used to demonstrate the passing of time (due to exposure). Logically, it may have worked but it doesn't feel right (like last ep's KL trip).  Above all, I'm more annoyed by the waste of Benjen. You have Dany arriving seconds before imminent doom and then Benjen. It was a disappointing sacrifice. I'm just going to pretend that Bran warged the ravens to fly faster and also summoned Benjen to help Jon.

Also, it appears the conclusion of the war might just be kill Night King and blam, all the zombies die. I guess he's some sort of Super-Warg. So in a way, he's not the arch-nemesis of Jon, but he's the arch-nemesis of Bran (like the 3ER before him).
It would be cool to think that NK doesn't even see Jon as a threat, he does things slowly because he has all the time in the world, any act of war against him results in only more troops for him. He probably thinks victory is a given.
I'm still curious about WW motivations though.

Anyway, I have to say, for all its faults, a lot of it is forgiven because of that last scene with Dany and Jon. Some may call it cheesy and him calling her Dany was probably a bit odd but I'm a real sucker for those sort of scenes. I like it story-wise as she's demonstrated her worth to Jon so he believes bending the knee is the right thing to do and Jon finally joining her really touched something deep in her because she's come to admire and respect this selfless (silly stubborn hero) dude. And they're obviously in love.

- Remarkably cinematic episode
- War table shot cutting to beyond the wall was great
- Some great action
- I love all the characters in the BtW team, happy most of them survived (RIP Red Priest)
- Beric was a standout this episode
- More Jorah is always welcome, happy to see him get a long with Jon
- I was so scared that Tormund was going to die when he was getting dragged by the wights
- Dragon Wight is way hardcore
- I wonder what would have happened if Drogon turned around and sprayed NK, he's probably dracarysproof
- I miss Theon

[Drenk]

So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes.

Yes, and it's hard to not enjoy them whatever we think of the story. The scenes were impressive. It wasn't as good as Hardhome because, outside of the dragons, you realize it is mostly people waiting and fighting inside of a circle an army that should kill them in a few seconds but everything in that show is done the best way it could be done. And it also had the scene with the zombie bears: I loved that one, it scared the shit out of me.

The storyline in Winterfell is very painful to watch but, if I understood correctly, it's all good between Sansa and Arya now? Good, I guess...
Also: the same way that Littlefinger is supposed to be some kind of great strategist while doing nothing of substance, Bran having superpowers and not doing much with them is becoming a big flaw...He's also a sociopath who doesn't care about anything so it can make some kind of sense...But I'd rather watch Bran using his powers (the scene with the ravens was beautiful, like JB said) than watching Maisie Williams struggling to play bad material the best way she can...

[Jeremy Blackman]

[Posting this without reading any replies or reviews yet. Also, it got long, so I included subheads.]


Welp this is going to be a divisive one for sure. I pretty much loved it by the end, though. Why? Because we've fully crossed over into bonkers fantasy, that's not going to stop, and I'm prepared.

I'll get some quibbles out of the way first. Feel free to rebut any of them, because I did love this episode...

– Build-up to the blue eye was at least 5 seconds too long. We all knew what was going to happen.
– Benjen had time, right? Maybe he needed to serve as a distraction, but that wasn't communicated well.
– Tyrion's fireside dialogue was not good. He sounded like an idiot. Dany's responses were great though, so maybe a wash.


Pre-emptive fan-splaining

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

[Just emailed that ^ in as podcast feedback, complete with a clickbait subject line. If it makes it in, I can die happy.]

The real dumb one here is Arya. That's going to break a lot of people's hearts — fans who've been rooting for her from the beginning. Well guess what, this is what Arya has become. It's quite dark. A couple more crucial things to note here. Arya made much of her lie detector test. Sansa appears to have passed it. Inevitable conclusion: Arya performs this test on Littlefinger and he fails.

Just based on the responses to this season, I know people are going to complain hardcore about that raven. I thought they conveyed clearly that significant time had passed — Thoros had completely frozen, and the rest of them were not far behind. Also someone on Reddit did the math, and it seems to check out, although it is very close:

In conclusion: It seems to me that the just over 4 day travel time required for Dany to to receive the Raven and fly to Eastwatch, seems to line up accurately with the amount of time it would take ice to grow enough to support an army of undead to fight on top of it in those conditions.

This was a truly frightening episode, wasn't it? The journey beyond the wall, Dany and Tyrion fighting, and ice-cold Arya. I don't think I have been more afraid during an episode from the beginning to the end. I really wonder if that deep unease — feeling lost, like you don't really know this world, like anything could happen — is going to color people's assessment of this episode. But I welcome all of that. It really was time for the show to punish us again.


A contrarian opinion that you will find convincing

Tyrion and Jon's plan turned out to be just as dumb as expected. But, four mitigating points:

(1) They have both proven themselves to be horrible strategists.

(2) People do dumb things. I don't mind seeing that in GoT. It happens a lot. This is certainly not competence porn. Mistakes in this show quite often lead to difficulty — and there were very real consequences here.

(3) The plan is one of those "so crazy it just might work" scenarios. I am fine with that, because this episode feels very true in a way to the spirit of GoT — even an improbable and heroic win creates new challenges. The feel of the story right now might even presage the "bittersweet" ending that Martin envisions.

(4) Jon expressing regret (finally confessing his stupidity?) went a long way for me. And then of course we get to the real point of this venture, which was showing Daenerys. "You don't really know until you see," she said. Cersei is just a bonus. Dany is going to win this thing. Now it's personal.


If this boat's a-rockin'...

The final 18 minutes, starting with Dany's arrival, was 100% gold. Probably one of my favorite stretches in the show's history. And the scene between Jon and Dany — wow, they nailed that so hard. Speaking of which, Dany looked like she was about to jump him right then and there, were it not for him being almost dead.

When Jon said "how about my queen" my head literally exploded. I don't have a head anymore. For some reason that hit me like a ton of bricks — like, wait, did I fantasize that line, or did it actually just happen? Beautiful performances there. Now these two have really been through some shit together, as they say. It's remarkable how this is one of the most vividly realized relationships ever done on the show, and it was fully accomplished in the space of 4 episodes, even admist everything else that's been happening.

[Drenk]

"So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes."

The scene with the bears was terrifying. It scared me. Once the army of walkers are around them I knew the show was just waiting for dragons and that they were safe.

[©brad]

I don't necessary agree with this Vulture article from beginning to end in regards to GoT's perceived problem with time and place, but it does bring up some interesting points for debate:

"There’s an even bigger issue with scrapping the commonplace logic that it takes a long time to get to faraway places: Without firm rules about time and geography, suddenly everything becomes possible. The pressures that create obstacles for our beloved and reviled characters no longer feel all that hard to overcome. The strategic cost of sending Jon Snow beyond the Wall to collect a wight would be massive if he were taking himself out of the diplomatic game for episodes on end, and his near-death moment in the ambush would be similarly colossal. Instead, we’re left with … you know, the battle is cool! The dragons are cool! But it doesn’t feel all that astonishing or impressive when Dany saves them, because apparently flying across the continent is just a thing someone can do without any further explanation.

This is the real problem with abandoning incontrovertible rules for space and time, even in a made-up universe like the one in Game of Thrones. Once your audience notices the fictional world is fickle, the seams of the whole thing become visible. Once you’ve seen behind the curtain of how the story works, you look at each event in the narrative for what it really is (a decision made to push the story forward) rather than what you’d like it to be (the story as a story, the end)."

[KJ]

Has it leaked yet?

[Jeremy Blackman]

Re: timelines, rules, perceived inconsistencies.

The bottom line is that Game of Thrones does not have time to explain everything. Usually you can come up with a very reasonable explanation without too much effort. As film fans, we take for granted that the audience should have to do a lot of the work — we are even excited when a film demands that of us. Why should that be different for a TV show?

There was even a prime example in this episode: When Jon & friends were stuck on that island, they barely said a single word about what was happening — we really did have to figure it out. I deeply respect this show for sticking to its principles even as the pace increases.

People think they want to see all the explanations, but they don't. They really don't. We already have a lot of shows and movies that do that, and they are generally not good.

I am severely disappointed in the critical community right now. Even the AV Club reviews have been kind of trash all season. I guess that's what happens when you don't have screeners and are forced to put something together in 2 hours. You're just cramming for a test at that point, probably not even enjoying the viewing experience very much. What a profoundly stupid approach.

So many Game of Thrones reviews and podcasts are mostly just evaluating what's good and what's bad about an episode. If you spend all your time doing that, you just don't have time to analyze much of anything. Evaluation and analysis are two very different things. But this is what GoT has done. It's spawned an industry of evaluators and nitpickers.

"Let's just go through the episode and describe all the ways in which it's not perfect." Okay, but why? What value are you even providing to Game of Thrones fans?

And trust me, I've tried pretty much all the podcasts.

"Nerdette Recaps Game of Thrones" — 50% nitpicking, 30% evaluation, 10% what the books do better, 10% actual analysis (being generous). This is a somewhat entertaining but truly insufferable podcast. I deleted it last season, tried it this season but sure enough deleted it out of frustration once again.

“A Cast of Kings” & “Binge Mode” — These are about half evaluation and half analysis. Above average podcasts. I’m skipping them this week, though.

“Game of Thrones the Podcast” from Bald Move — This is still the best GoT podcast, and it’s not even close. Deep analysis and consistently entertaining. There is some nitpicking, but it’s always put in perspective.

I could rant some more, but I should probably leave it there for now.

[Drenk]

If you do the work you have to make the assumption that someone discovered a teleportation machine and that the show failed to mention it somehow. I'm not saying they should show the boring parts or anything, they could go as fast as they are while maintaining the fabric of the world of Game of Thrones. The fact that things take time should impact the events. You can skip all you want, but you should not treat the story as an easy gateway to everything you want. As entertaining and well done as this season can be, thinking about it is what brings it down.

[Fernando]

– Tyrion's fireside dialogue was not good. He sounded like an idiot. Dany's responses were great though, so maybe a wash.

Couldn't agree more, she is right to wait UNTIL she is officially Queen of everything. (ok I'm assuming you meant when discussing who will be her heir)

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

That's an interesting take, still it seems to me that their fight should end by explaining just a few key events, where did Arya find the message?

Sansa did try to get her to reason but wouldn't listen to her, she said to her what I said last week that Cersei forced her, maybe not by putting a knife in her throat but with the threat of killing their father, still Arya wouldn't have it, she's so narrow minded.

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

I don't think either will die because that's too dumb, both have survived greater horrors to meet an end for this dumb quarrel.

A couple more crucial things to note here. Arya made much of her lie detector test. Sansa appears to have passed it. Inevitable conclusion: Arya performs this test on Littlefinger and he fails.

Maybe Arya is playing a game, one that will lead to the demise of Little Finger...



Forgetting about the time that passes what happened in the north worked for me, from the moment Dany appears with two dragons I knew one had to go down, maybe this is dumb but I wonder if that dragon will shoot fire or ice...

I think Dany truly fell in love with Jon when he stays to fight instead of flying away, bravery and selflessness is a big thing for her.


That WW that Jon kills has been killed three times now, at least two by his hand here and in Hardhome, and one by Sam which I'm not sure if it's the same one.

[Jeremy Blackman]

If you do the work you have to make the assumption that someone discovered a teleportation machine and that the show failed to mention it somehow.

Which instance of travel this season cannot be explained by the passage of time? The chronology seems pretty easy to understand.

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

That WW that Jon kills has been killed three times now, at least two by his hand here and in Hardhome, and one by Sam which I'm not sure if it's the same one.

That can't be the same one, from what I understand. I don't think we really know how many proper white walkers there are. How many babies did Craster give up? If they catch someone alive, they can probably turn them into one too.

[polkablues]

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

I think it's also an important point that Bran (3ER), doesn't really know everything. He's capable of knowing everything, but Bran's training in the ways of three-eyed ravenry was massively truncated, and he's still figuring out how the hell it all works. At best, he can pick out bits and pieces from the overwhelming agglomerate of information that's flowing through him.