Editing Theory

[Jeremy Blackman]

is matt35mm's cut.

[matt35mm]

Yay!  Thanks.

Kotte, this was fun.  I hope the cut works for you.

EDIT:  There's a slight humming in both shots, with it louder in the first shot, so when you cut from shot to shot, make sure that you're blending the sounds together in a way that won't draw attention to it.  It'll be jarring otherwise everytime you cut.  I've blended them together and it should sound fine, but I know you'll have to actually cut it for yourself as well, so keep that in mind if you haven't noticed it already.

Also, I would replace the sound of Gino walking with sound effects.  It sounds like he's walking on a stage and the footsteps are kinda loud.  It sounds like he's wearing boots.  If he's meant to be a waiter, I'd say to remove that sound and add in a lighter, gentler footstep sound that also suggests fancy shoes.  Or make it sound like he's walking on carpet (more likely in a restaurant), barely audible.  That's how waiters are supposed to be.  (He's probably not a waiter, but regardless he'd have gentle, fancy-shoes-footsteps.)

Also, funny scene!  The last line (Ono said this and I agree) gets funnier everytime I hear it.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Another thing about the footstep sounds... There are only two of them, so you can tell that he started walking there from just five feet away.

Gino's line is better in the second clip, but I think rhythmically it should be separated like it is in the first clip. There should be a nice little beat between "Mr. Somethingsomething" and "Is everything to your satisfaction?"

[kotte]

Thanks for your help. Both your cuts are fine.

I just wanna find something that feels right but I'm afraid my inexperience know nothing about that.

There's a choice you have to make in this cut:
Do we cut for continuity or do we cut for pace?

I feel, if we match the glass the cut is too short and if we hold on Gino a bit longer the glass is off.
This is why I wanna take Murch's list into consideration. He makes a continuity error feel okay. Continuity should be at the bottom of your list when you cut. If possible a cut should have all of the six but if not then start with no. 1 and work your way down.
But it's , you know...I...it's, or maybe the cut isn't too short. I really don't know.

About footsteps and (the fucking monitor) humming. I have a post-production facility doing foley, cleaning of tracks and mixing. So there is no humming or awkward footsteps in the final soundtrack.

[matt35mm]

The perfectionist in me wants to put continuity up higher on that list.  But still, I've cut things that didn't have continuity before, yet, they weren't as obvious.  I think that it would be more obvious here, because there are only two motions--Gino's entrance and the movement of the hand with the wine.  What you have to "feel" is if that can be gotten away with.

That said, I didn't feel that the pacing was that off.  I suppose I could've held on Gino a few frames longer.  Just don't miscut the motions.  Cut while they're holding still.  I think I would notice, onscreen, that sort of a continuity error.

I think the PACING is just about right, but I understand wanting to hold on Gino longer.  Now that the motions and sound are synched up, you can simply cut to Gino BEFORE Viggo glances up at him, giving you a longer hold on Gino.  I considered this, but decided that I liked Viggo's glace better.  I don't think you can have both here.  You'll have to choose between Viggo's glance and the longer hold on Gino.  Or you can cut back into Viggo a bit later, after the glass is already put down.  However, I think adding extra time would make it take too long for Viggo to reply.

But hey, ultimately, you're the director.  You can ask for our opinions but you'll be the one who has to say "I wanna cut HERE, dammit!"  When you do make your decision, be confident about it, and confident in your feel of the scene.

Good luck with it all.

[RegularKarate]

is my attempt.

I did this last night and didn't have time to upload it because my computer decided to get a little freezy and I got a little tired.

This was before I got to see anyone else's.

This is something that's hard to do without context.  I don't know what the rest of the pacing is like.  JB's works, but I think it has too many cuts for such a simple interaction.

Matt seems to be worried too much about editing the audio... you can do that later, it's just the raw track anyway.  Matt's also crosses the line, which I find jarring, even though it might not be to most people.  

What I was going for was simplicity.  Establishing his attitude and changing the eyeline before trying to jump across it.

anyway... it's hard to do without knowing what the rest of the film is like so I didn't spend much time fine-tuning... I was just putting in my two cents about how to get around crossing the line.

[kotte]

Thanks all for your efforts.

You've approached it differently as should be without knowing context.
I think I have a better sense of what I want. RegularKarate is very close to what I what I feel is right.

I gotta say Murch's list makes perfectly sense to me. Emotion and Story (big picture) before 180 and continuity.

Thank you all again.

[Jeremy Blackman]

This is why I wanna take Murch's list into consideration. He makes a continuity error feel okay.

I think a continuity error would really hurt, though. The glass is really the only thing moving in this scene, and it's definitely the initial focus. People will follow it. If discontinuity is not distracting, it will probably produce an unintended emotional effect. So it's not like you can absolutely separate these categories. I think continuity can be emotion.

JB's works, but I think it has too many cuts for such a simple interaction.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I tend to melodramatize things.

[matt35mm]

Matt seems to be worried too much about editing the audio... you can do that later, it's just the raw track anyway.  Matt's also crosses the line, which I find jarring, even though it might not be to most people.

I wouldn't say I'm TOO worried about it.  As the only editor on my films, I edit sound and picture at the same time.  I just consider it equally important.

Also, I have to admit that I don't understand what crossing the line means, even after it's been explained to me several times.  It seems like a simple concept but I always get lost in the words of the explanation.  I can't quite grasp it.  Can someone try explaining it to me again?  Crossing the line?  In the simplest way possible?

[RegularKarate]

Mac Posted This in another thread...

http://www.mavart.com/1997-05-12-crossing-the-line

to put it in very simple terms, if you have two people looking at eachother, draw a line between them.  Every cut should stay on one side of that line unless you introduce another character or move across the line on camera.

With my cut, I waited until he was looking at his wine, which moved the line (though it's still kinda crossing the line).

[matt35mm]

Well, I see what it is now (it took me a little while).  But that pretty much was in the camera angles, not in my edit, right?  I wonder if flipping the picture in one of the shots would've helped?  I dunno and I don't feel like trying it, but yeah, at least I know what that means now.

I also went back and checked my last movie and saw that I crossed the line.  Oopsies.  It's more of a camera angle thing, not an editing thing, it seems.

[kotte]

This is why I wanna take Murch's list into consideration. He makes a continuity error feel okay.

I think a continuity error would really hurt, though. The glass is really the only thing moving in this scene, and it's definitely the initial focus. People will follow it. If discontinuity is not distracting, it will probably produce an unintended emotional effect. So it's not like you can absolutely separate these categories. I think continuity can be emotion.

Well, it depends on what kind of cut it is. But I believe you're right, the glass is the only thing moving and it tells something about who Viggo is. There's so much to take into consideration in editing that I haven't even thought about once before.

It's a learning process.

As the only editor on my films, I edit sound and picture at the same time. I just consider it equally important.

It is equally important. That's why you have a whole team of sound editors, foley artists, sound designers, mixers etc etc to do the sound.
Because it is equally important, both deserves your unquestionable attention. Sync up the material and do not worry about sound 'till it's time to.

[kotte]

Next challenge.

and .

Shot 1 is really the first shot after the title. Shot 2 follows.
How do I get from no. 1 to no. 2. It's a time-cut, of'course.

This problem is all about on-set screw-up. What I had in mind was a whip-pan / cut to Viggo.
But I can't seem to cut it in a smooth, soft way. What I have done the last month is trying to cut without the whip. Just before the whip happens. The goal is nothing more than a smooth and working cut.

Thing is, I don't wanna use advanced effects since it wouldn't be in tone with the rest of the film.

With or without the whip.

If you feel you can help, please! We're too blind to see what can be.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Why not a simple dissolve?

Anyway, I think the first shot should be much longer. Didn't you show us that clip before, but it dollied into a closeup?

[kotte]

Neither of them are complete. Don't have enough space on the server.
They're just to give you an idea.