QUEER CINEMA

Started by modage, June 02, 2003, 05:33:46 PM

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godardian

Quote from: cecil b. dementedanyone a fan of francois ozon?

im going to watch sitcom ina  few minutes

Abso-fuckin'-lutely. I saw a preview for The Swimming Pool when I went to see The Shape of Things, and it looked really good, and I got very excited when I saw who the director was. I've only seen 8 Women, unfortunately. I would love to see Under the Sand; I really like Charlotte Rampling.

Didn't he do a Fassbinder script posthumously?

Ah, Fassbinder... now there's a queer filmmaker. Have you ever seen The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant, Pookie? It's like he made the best gay film ever (Fox and his Friends), and then he went and made the best lesbian film ever, too. They're incredibly original, sad, funny, eccentric movies.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

godardian

Chasing Amy. It hurts to admit it 'cos Kevin Smith leaves a bad taste for me, but it's remarkably insightful and funny and tender.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

MacGuffin

Quote from: godardian
Quote from: pookiethecatI'd rather gay characters be well-portrayed in a supporting context than poorly-portrayed in a leading-protoganist context.

Totally. Look at Boogie Nights and Magnolia; the gay characters are interesting, and they're not just poster children for gay rights, or something.

I think John Ritter's character in "Sling Blade" would fit that too.
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

pookiethecat

godardian-

i hated hated hated chasing amy.  it pissed me as a lesbian. it pissed me off as a movie-lover.  i suppose there's some merit in garnering such a strong reaction in a viewer, but it's a highly dubious one.  i honestly felt revulsed after watching that movie...  initially, i thought it was about the complications of sexuality...are we all gay are we all straight, are we a little bit of both.  ok.  fine.  that's cool.  then it starts getting into the fingercuffs nonsense and i realize that it isn't at all about sexuality, it's about a sleazy woman with a sleazy past whose boyfriend doesn't know how to deal with the fact that she was highly promiscuous and probably has std's.  holden was portrayed as an irrational doofus, but i identified with him the entire time.  smith stuck in lesbianism for no good reason i can think of...i suppose to add an extra layer of blindfold around our eyes to the true nonsense of the motion picture...it was like "hey look she's a lesbain for no reason other than that we can gawk at the spectacle of her being a lesbian." it struck me as exploitive and even jerry springer-esque.  

i'll check out the bitter tears of petra von kant.  though i live in a city where it's hard to find any movie that isn't spy kids 2 or some such shit.  anything that's not at blockbuster i really can't get to...i'd like to see it though.
i wanna lick 'em.

godardian

Quote from: pookiethecatgodardian-

i hated hated hated chasing amy.  it pissed me as a lesbian. it pissed me off as a movie-lover.  i suppose there's some merit in garnering such a strong reaction in a viewer, but it's a highly dubious one.  i honestly felt revulsed after watching that movie...  initially, i thought it was about the complications of sexuality...are we all gay are we all straight, are we a little bit of both.  ok.  fine.  that's cool.  then it starts getting into the fingercuffs nonsense and i realize that it isn't at all about sexuality, it's about a sleazy woman with a sleazy past whose boyfriend doesn't know how to deal with the fact that she was highly promiscuous and probably has std's.  holden was portrayed as an irrational doofus, but i identified with him the entire time.  smith stuck in lesbianism for no good reason i can think of...i suppose to add an extra layer of blindfold around our eyes to the true nonsense of the motion picture...it was like "hey look she's a lesbain for no reason other than that we can gawk at the spectacle of her being a lesbian." it struck me as exploitive and even jerry springer-esque.  

i'll check out the bitter tears of petra von kant.  though i live in a city where it's hard to find any movie that isn't spy kids 2 or some such shit.  anything that's not at blockbuster i really can't get to...i'd like to see it though.

Well, it's good and necessary to have disagreements about these things. It wouldn't be very interesting if we all agreed that "the queer cinema is good."

I was able to rent Petra von Kant at my local Hollywood video, but that's in Seattle.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Cecil

Quote from: cecil b. dementedim going to watch sitcom ina  few minutes

fucking hilarious! one of the best lines: "you wont let me die, will you at least let me suffer?"

godardian

Quote from: cecil b. demented
Quote from: cecil b. dementedim going to watch sitcom ina  few minutes

fucking hilarious! one of the best lines: "you wont let me die, will you at least let me suffer?"

Is this one of Ozon's older films, or newer, or....? I've never heard of it before now.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Cecil

its from 1998. i dont know if you can even find a copy to rent... i saw it on showcase.

RegularKarate

Quote from: pookiethecat
i hated hated hated chasing amy.  it pissed me as a lesbian. it pissed me off as a movie-lover.  i suppose there's some merit in garnering such a strong reaction in a viewer, but it's a highly dubious one.  i honestly felt revulsed after watching that movie...  initially, i thought it was about the complications of sexuality...are we all gay are we all straight, are we a little bit of both.  ok.  fine.  that's cool.  then it starts getting into the fingercuffs nonsense and i realize that it isn't at all about sexuality, it's about a sleazy woman with a sleazy past whose boyfriend doesn't know how to deal with the fact that she was highly promiscuous and probably has std's.  holden was portrayed as an irrational doofus, but i identified with him the entire time.  smith stuck in lesbianism for no good reason i can think of...i suppose to add an extra layer of blindfold around our eyes to the true nonsense of the motion picture...it was like "hey look she's a lesbain for no reason other than that we can gawk at the spectacle of her being a lesbian." it struck me as exploitive and even jerry springer-esque.  

I've heard this reaction from a lot of gay men and women... I, personally liked the film, but maybe that's because I didn't really watch it from that angle.  It's really the only Smith film I like.

Most of the films I would mention here have already been mentioned, but that's probably because I don't really pay that much attention to whether a film belongs in this genre (if you can call it that).  But I'm glad the topic's been started.

Okay... I guess that we can throw in Y Tu Mama Tambien?

and Almodovar's films?  

God's and Monsters was already mentioned, but Clive Barker co-produced that and I think he's a great writer (of books more than films, but this way, he counts for the category)

Opposite of Sex was an enjoyable film (to me, at least)

children with angels

Quote from: SantaClauseWasA BlackMan(offensive stuff)

Why would you post that?

And back to actual discussion...
My study of My Own Private Idaho is, as I said, in relation to the road movie, but being used as an example of the 'road as search for identity' theme with regards queer cinema. The Wizard of Oz - that stereotypically queer-interpreted movie - is being used as something of a classical template for a road movie on the course, and the phrase "There's no place like home" as a kind of philosophy for the entire genre (with the double meaning of the apparently simple phrase being taken to its logical conclusion). It's very interesting to look at the film as a search for home, for the norm, but with home ending up to be the road. Sorry, if this all sounds too film-studentish: I was just wondering what your take on these themes were...

And another question - Pookie, as a lesbian: what did you think of Kissing Jessica Stein? I thought it was a pretty funny, sweet romantic comedy - but there was something kind of dubious about it too - I have a feeling that if I was a gay woman I'd find it a little offensive. After all, it does deal with this idea that the main character just chooses to be queer for a while, then decides she's in fact straight. In one way it's quite nice that a very mainstream-style romantic comedy has been made that just happens to be about two women, but then they do still make a rather large issue out of it (with the 'choice' thing), rather than just literally translating the classic romantic comedy template into a queer situation.

It's cool that the film was successful though, as it can perhaps pave the way for less self conscious gay romantic comedies to be made. It seems wrong that a genre that is to do with the lie of uncomplicated romantic love should be taken up soley by straight movies: I'm sure gay people need that escapist fantasy sometimes too...! You said earlier that you don't like it when a queer movie is uncomplicated and "lightweight" - but isn't that kind of cool - that queer movies can be just the same amount of fluff as a straight one? If you mean "tacked on homosexuality" then I guess I agree, but it's difficult to distinguish between when it's tacked on and when it truly doesn't matter. Queer films should be entitled/subjected to the frothy shit as well as the soul-searching and complex films, don't you think?
"Should I bring my own chains?"
"We always do..."

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©brad

hmm... well i've seen my beautiful laundrette cos we watched it in film class last semester, to be honest i don't remember too much of it, besides another damn good performance from day-lewis.

almodovar is one of my favorite filmmakers. i wouldn't necessarily label him a 'gay filmmaker' tho. maybe.

the one storyline i did like in the rules of attraction was w/ the gay kid, the only character i felt a little sympathy for.

jmj

Oh wow…I hadn’t seen this forum before.  This is great.  As surprising as this sounds there is actually a robust little Queer Cinema movement down here in Fort Worth, TX by way of Q Cinema and the Fort Worth International Gay and Lesbian Film Festival.  It’s run by one of the main critics at the local newspaper who happens to be Gay.  It’s really interesting how different the culture of film becomes when you delve into minority specific genres.  The audience tends to be more lenient towards story/technical flaws because they are so happy to have something to identify with.  Actually, I guess you could say that this is true of Independent film in general.  Whaddya think?

Anyway, right now Q Cinema is doing a series called “Profiles in Pride.”  They are all docs and I have to admit it’s some of the best Queer cinema I’ve seen.  Here’s a list, if you can find these on video you should check them out:

The Times of Harvey Milk
Living With Pride: Ruth Ellis @ 100
The Real Ellen Story
Lance Loud: A Death in an American Family
No Secret Anymore: The Times of Del Martin & Phyllis Lyon
Hope Along the Wind: The Life of Harry Hay

BTW- One of my best friends is a Queer Filmmaker and his last film “Happy Birthday” has won several awards and done great at a lot of the LGBT film festivals around the country and abroad.  I’ll let you guys know the next city it hits.  He just got a DVD distribution deal for it so I’ll let you know when it comes out.
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

pookiethecat

Quote from: children with angels
And another question - Pookie, as a lesbian: what did you think of Kissing Jessica Stein? I thought it was a pretty funny, sweet romantic comedy - but there was something kind of dubious about it too - I have a feeling that if I was a gay woman I'd find it a little offensive. After all, it does deal with this idea that the main character just chooses to be queer for a while, then decides she's in fact straight. In one way it's quite nice that a very mainstream-style romantic comedy has been made that just happens to be about two women, but then they do still make a rather large issue out of it (with the 'choice' thing), rather than just literally translating the classic romantic comedy template into a queer situation.

It's cool that the film was successful though, as it can perhaps pave the way for less self conscious gay romantic comedies to be made. It seems wrong that a genre that is to do with the lie of uncomplicated romantic love should be taken up soley by straight movies: I'm sure gay people need that escapist fantasy sometimes too...! You said earlier that you don't like it when a queer movie is uncomplicated and "lightweight" - but isn't that kind of cool - that queer movies can be just the same amount of fluff as a straight one? If you mean "tacked on homosexuality" then I guess I agree, but it's difficult to distinguish between when it's tacked on and when it truly doesn't matter. Queer films should be entitled/subjected to the frothy shit as well as the soul-searching and complex films, don't you think?

So, in essence, the queer cinema movement should be glad that it makes movies just as bad and lame as mainstream cinema?  haha.  i suppose...  

In response to your other query I have yet to see Kissing Jessica Stein, but I think I can respond anyway.  I don't object to the idea that sexuality is fluid and people are capable of "switching teams."  For that reason, Chasing Amy wasn't herently offensive, and from the sounds of it, neither is Kissing Jessica Stein.  (While most awknowledge that homosexuality isn't a choice, it's equally ignorant to assume that we are all rigid and secure with our own sexualities)...Perhaps, I need to clarify.  The reason why i didn't like Chasing Amy was because the lesbianism of the main character was irrelevant to the theme (which was accepting people's past promiscuity) yet most of the gags and dialogue were spent disecting it and nitpicking the controversy of homosexuality... the irresponsible use of something controversial for the sake of being controversial was really what i responded to negatively...  (does that make sense?)  

Additionally, I found it to be a poorly executed piece of cinema, the humor juvenile and the acting atrocious...(especially ben affleck, but that's a different thread altogether...lol).   Put simply, it was a movie that didn't know anything about gay people for people who don't know anything about gay people..  So I suppose the ignorance continues...

I hope that answered your question as thoroughly as possible.

*running out and renting my own private idaho, kissing jessica stein the bitter tears of petra von kant and every other damn movie on the planet*
i wanna lick 'em.

godardian

Quote from: pookiethecat

Additionally, I found it to be a poorly executed piece of cinema, the humor juvenile and the acting atrocious...(especially ben affleck, but that's a different thread altogether...lol).   Put simply, it was a movie that didn't know anything about gay people for people who don't know anything about gay people..  

I find the first thing to be true of all the other Kevin Smith films I've seen.

What I remember, though, is appreciating that Ben Affleck seemed to be getting a life lesson about the fluidity of sexuality, and not generalizing about a group but discovering that each individual's sexuality works differently... I don't remember it being that ignorant.

It's been a while, though, so I may have to revisit it more critically. Although I was definitely PREPARED to despise it when I first watched it.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

godardian

Quote from: jmjIt's really interesting how different the culture of film becomes when you delve into minority specific genres.  The audience tends to be more lenient towards story/technical flaws because they are so happy to have something to identify with.  Actually, I guess you could say that this is true of Independent film in general.  Whaddya think?

Yeah, and it's at least as much a problem for queer film as it is for independent film in general. I'm more prone to forgive the blah mindset behind something like In and Out; they have to water things down and make them bland and acceptable for the largest possible audience. I think independent and queer filmmakers could generally stand to be a lot sharper and work a lot harder on coming up with something fresh, or at least honing their storytelling skills.

Unfortunately, I've had first-hand experience of what "supportive" is expected to mean in the queer community. As a sometime freelance reviewer, I'm honest about my opinions, as I think all reviewers should be. One filmmaker, upon my negative review of his feature, threw a giant fit and harassed the editorial staff of the gay paper in which the review ran, his own representatives, and the representatives of Portland's LGBT film festival. Now, most filmmakers EXPECT some bad reviews. They know behavior like that wouldn't be tolerated. They find ways to deal with it without making themselves look like spoiled children.

But "supportive" in these cases seems to mean "benign back-slapping and mindless congratulation," rather than helping to shape a viable, vibrant, varied, entertaining and aesthetically interesting queer cinema, which means being self-critical (as any good artist is, even if it's only in private) and open to outside criticism.

Quote from: jmjHe just got a DVD distribution deal for it so I'll let you know when it comes out.

So to speak, right? Sorry... couldn't resist.  :oops:

Someone mentioned The Opposite of Sex, which I loved. I really had hoped Don Roos would turn out to be an interesting queer filmmaker. Then he gave us Bounce. Which had the one good joke about quitting smoking; the rest felt like a whole lot of nothing to me.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.