Author Topic: True Detective  (Read 38361 times)

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polkablues

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #120 on: March 11, 2014, 03:14:56 PM »
+5
True Detective: the story of a man's journey from recognizing that his hallucinations are hallucinations to believing that they're real.

I don't know. As much as I still loved the series as a whole, I can't get on board with that ending. It didn't feel like an inevitable change to me, it felt like a 180 on everything the story had actually been about this whole time. All these amazing themes of self-sacrifice, of driven men pushing themselves past the point of no return for a greater good far beyond themselves, and the cost to their very humanity inherent therein, just tossed away in the last five minutes. There was no sacrifice, save the temporary pain of being stabbed, there was only a new message, previously unimaginable within the story being told: keep on doing what you're doing and everything will work out fine in the end.

I don't have a source for this, but I've read a couple comments elsewhere mentioning that Nicky Pizza had the final scene planned out before writing any of the rest of the story, and I believe it, because that's exactly what it felt like. It was the ending he had previously decided on, not the ending to the story he had actually written. 99% of the series demonstrates that the man is a brilliant writer, one of the best to ever try his hand at television. That last 1% just shows he's not perfect.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2014, 05:11:38 PM »
+1
All these amazing themes of self-sacrifice, of driven men pushing themselves past the point of no return for a greater good far beyond themselves, and the cost to their very humanity inherent therein, just tossed away in the last five minutes.

Rust's epiphany & Marty's growing up don't erase their past sacrifices. Marty's family is ruined for good, and Rust is clearly permanently damaged by everything he's gone through. Did they really need to make "the ultimate sacrifice?" I'm not particularly interested in martyrdom for these characters. How boring would that have been? Satisfying in a shallow sense, but ultimately uninteresting, almost dark for darkness's sake. But this is my particular bias; the show's bleakest bleakness was never my cup of tea. It was tiresome by the end of Episode 2, and grating by the end of Episode 3.

There was no sacrifice, save the temporary pain of being stabbed, there was only a new message, previously unimaginable within the story being told: keep on doing what you're doing and everything will work out fine in the end.

I don't think any of that is true. Rust's sacrifice is strange (and maybe counterintuitive), but significant. After years of numbness and routine and so many assumptions, he's finally being confronted. His tiresome amateur philosophizing is being turned back on him, which I absolutely love. It's like the universe said okay enough rambling, you really want to know the truth about existence? See if you can deal with this.

I say it seems inevitable now because in the interview, it's clear that something is going to break, that he's done with his life in one way or another. I'm sure he would prefer to be martyred, but this outcome confronts him with something entirely unfamiliar. It also brings out an element of his character that was always there; endless reflection borne of self-doubt, of always sort of knowing that there was something else. He was primed for this.

In terms of message, as they said in the Slate podcast, the message they go out on (with the stars thing) is essentially that the glass is 1% full.

True Detective: the story of a man's journey from recognizing that his hallucinations are hallucinations to believing that they're real.

The True Detective universe is clearly one in which an afterlife exists (and in that universe his experience was not a hallucination). Instead of being repelled by that, I thought it was a bold choice that redeemed a lot of the show's past material. (Again, probably my bias.)
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Cloudy

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2014, 06:02:19 PM »
+3
JB, I definitely follow you on your feelings of the end and how it was truly satisfying for it to end there for Rust after the bleakness of the first half, but the problem was in the WAY that happened. Pizzolato even said himself that he wrote the ending of the series during the time he wrote the first ep, which shows obviously how where it ended was forced upon rather than a natural conclusion through these men's natural/supernatural truths. After the 5th episode the rhythms and trajectory of the show completely changed by force to get to this end conclusion rather than to let the reality of the situation to play out.
His tiresome amateur philosophizing is being turned back on him, which I absolutely love. It's like the universe said okay enough rambling, you really want to know the truth about existence? See if you can deal with this.
^i liked this, just didn't think it unfolded in a truthful/musical manner, which is all that matters because otherwise we might as well just be writing philosophy.

Brando

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #123 on: March 13, 2014, 12:37:28 PM »
0
The article was posted on Monday but don't think anyone posted or talked about here. Pizzolatto considered supernatural endings including Rust and Marty vanishing. I was expecting a supernatural ending but completely agree with his choice of showing Rust and Marty's change. I would normally be annoyed by a nihilist character seeing the light (literally) and changing. I just never really believed Rust's philosophical ramblings. He was such a broken character troubled by his daughters death, break up of his marriage, and everything he's done undercover and on the job that it was just his coping mechanism.



http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/true-detective-creator-nic-pizzolatto-reveals-alternate-endings-why-it-wasnt-neatly-wrapped-up-20140310


'True Detective' Creator Nic Pizzolatto Reveals Alternate Endings & Shares Season 2 Story Details


"True Detective" has finished, and now the debate begins on its legacy. Did it live up to the promise in the first half of the season? Was the story concluded in a satisfactory manner? Is this really one of the greatest shows in TV history? We'll let you hash it out in the comments section, but in this writer's opinion, there hasn't been a TV drama this dense, rich and satisfying in a long, long time. That said, last night's finale did leave a slightly sour taste in the mouths of some. Obviously, **SPOILERS AHEAD**.

So, in "Form And Void," we saw both Rust and Martin near death, only to survive and spend the last quarter of the show involved in a discussion of light versus dark, and the meaning of the universe. As we wrote in our recap, it was a fitting and rather poetic conclusion, with both men changed from what they've experienced. But it wasn't the supernatural finale some were hoping for or tragic conclusion some expected. And writer/creator Nic Pizzolatto shares his approach and some of the other ideas he had going into the finale.

"For me as a storyteller, I want to follow the characters and the story through what they organically demand. And it would have been the easiest thing in the world to kill one or both of these guys," Pizzolatto told HitFix. "I even had an idea where something more mysterious happened to them, where they vanished into the unknown and Gilbough and Papania had to clean up the mess and nobody knows what happens to them. Or it could have gone full blown supernatural. But I think both of those things would have been easy, and they would have denied the sort of realist questions the show had been asking all along. To retreat to the supernatural, or to take the easy dramatic route of killing a character in order to achieve an emotional response from the audience, I thought would have been a disservice to the story. What was more interesting to me is that both these men are left in a place of deliverance, a place where even Cohle might be able to acknowledge the possibility of grace in the world."

And it was a smart choice, giving the finale of "True Detective" a true emotional heft (Rust's story about feeling his daughter's presence and love while on the brink of death is awards reel stuff). But perhaps vexing to many was that the conspiracy around the Tuttle churches stayed in the background and was not fully resolved. Martin even quiets Gilbough and Papania when they start explaining where the investigation has gone. But for Pizzolatto, it was all about making the show as real as possible.

"The conspiracies that I've researched and encountered, they seem to happen very ad hoc: they become conspiracies when it's necessary to have a conspiracy. I think it would have rang false to have Hart and Cohle suddenly clean up 50 years of the culture history that led to Errol Childress, or to get all the men in that video," he explained. "It's important to me, I think, that Cohle says, 'We didn't get em all, Marty,' and Marty says, 'We ain't going to. This isn't that kind of world.' This isn't the kind of world where you mop up everything. We discharged our duty, but of course there are levels and wheels and historical contexts to what happened that we'll never be able to touch."

It's a brave position to take, and a choice that leaves the world of "True Detective" as complex and unfair and haunted as it was when we entered. But now, the big question: what's happening with season two? Well, Pizzolatto is already putting pen to paper, for another conspiratorial tale, but one that seems to be more national in scope.

"Okay. This is really early, but I'll tell you (it's about) hard women, bad men and the secret occult history of the United States transportation system," the writer shared. Damn.
If you think this is going to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

Pubrick

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2014, 01:11:52 PM »
+2
That last bit about the second season has been posted before.

That seems to be his go-to sound bite when talking about the next season. Can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure I made a sarcastic remark about it, that in the end those hard women will probably find a bullshit change of heart and realise that their real place is at home raising children. You know, to be consistent with the final turnaround in the first season.

I think pizza face is realising he dropped the ball when he says the alternate endings would've been the easy choice. Fuck that, the happy ending oh well we got our guy and you found God and your daughter is waiting for you blah blah ugh.. that is the most common predictable happy ending you could have shoehorned onto such a seemingly original show.

Does anyone seriously believe that after nearly 20 years on the case, obsessed with this conspiracy which strikes at the heart of everything he stands for, that Rust would just give up trying to bring the rest of the culprits to justice? That's what pizza is suggesting. He actually committed the biggest "disservice to the story" by forcing a happy ending where both characters play against the nature he's established throughout the past 7 episodes.

It's actually a compliment to his skill how badly he fucked up the ending. The main characters were so well established that even the slightest misstep rang alarm bells to those following closely. Some people disagree for personal reasons, JB for example simply never liked that nihilistic stuff Rust kept saying, but if you look at it like a proper story and not just wish fulfillment that last episode would not have made it past any script workshop.

It's infuriating. The show was perfect. It's the Quiz Kid Donnie Smith of shows, it used to be smart but now..
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Drenk

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2014, 03:32:04 PM »
+1
Children aren't angels. They're just dead.
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ębrad

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #126 on: March 27, 2014, 08:07:59 PM »
+1
I'm way late but I'll chime in.

Overall, it's great. Dense. Utterly watchable from episode to episode. For such a tired genre it feels new and different. It's a little self-satisfied but smart enough to get away with it. It's fascinating to see a show at the hands of a single writer and director work so well. I don't think there's any value in debating what is better, the autuer (ugh that word) vs the showrunner/writer's room model. They both can be amazing obviously. My favorite part of the show was the Rust/Marty relationship and the character work. You felt you knew these guys, which is rare on detective shows. The time passage felt so real and honest. The story spanned decades and you believe it. Structurally and from an acting standpoint, this is so hard to pull off.

In regards to the ending, I feel like the detractors are complaining more about execution than the thematic implications or anything else. I agree the dialogue in that hospital scene was a bit hamfisted, but so were most of Rust's (Pizza face's) philosophical ramblings. It didn't feel particularly out of step in that regard.

Also I think it's an overstatement to say Rust found god and saw his daugthers and understands the universe now, and that the moral of the show was keep trying and good things will happen. He is simply acknowledging the possibility of hope. To borrow an AVClub-ism, it isn't about seeing the glass half-full, but recognizing the existence of the glass and the ability for it to hold even a small amount of water. It reminds me of what David Chase said about the Sopranos finale - it's about small steps of progress. The shifting of a degree or two.

All these amazing themes of self-sacrifice, of driven men pushing themselves past the point of no return for a greater good far beyond themselves, and the cost to their very humanity inherent therein, just tossed away in the last five minutes. There was no sacrifice, save the temporary pain of being stabbed, there was only a new message, previously unimaginable within the story being told: keep on doing what you're doing and everything will work out fine in the end.

These themes are not negated by that ending. The guys have and will continue to experience sacrifice. You can't deny the emotional, physical, and psychological damage that will continue to haunt both men, and the turmoil Marty has put upon his family. They gave 20 years of life for this. They won't get those years back.

I'd like to ask what the detractors would have liked to have seen instead? (and I don't mean to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious.) For Rust to stay a cynical, nihilistic bastard? And die alone? What would be the point of the whole show then? I see it more as a hopeful ending as opposed to a happy one.  Seeing both of them not reach some kind of catharsis would have been dramatically unsatisfying. Or maybe I'm just a sucker for such endings.

Oh, and when what's his ass said this:

"Marty... this is the place."

Tell me you didn't freak the everliving fuck out. Breaking Bad-level of chills right there.





03

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #127 on: March 28, 2014, 05:15:44 AM »
0
Quote
Oh, and when what's his ass said this:

"Marty... this is the place."

Tell me you didn't freak the everliving fuck out. Breaking Bad-level of chills right there.
i did actually, i thought i was the only one, thank you.

cine

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #128 on: March 29, 2014, 12:04:36 AM »
0
I'd like to ask what the detractors would have liked to have seen instead? (and I don't mean to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious.) For Rust to stay a cynical, nihilistic bastard? And die alone? What would be the point of the whole show then? I see it more as a hopeful ending as opposed to a happy one.  Seeing both of them not reach some kind of catharsis would have been dramatically unsatisfying. Or maybe I'm just a sucker for such endings.
i was wondering this too since i was dumbfounded by the level of criticism from xixax for the final episode.

Mel

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #129 on: March 29, 2014, 06:49:08 AM »
+2
For the show that avoided outright red herrings for the most part, opening of final with sheriff was just awful. At least other tricks that were used to throw audience off from the scent, had some point. Good example is Marty's daughter: it shows what impact investigation had on family, also audience shares obsession of connecting everything with detectives. What was the point of introducing sheriff? They would still get AHA "green paint" moment without it.

Why I point this out? I admire "True Detective" for escaping cage of crime-story, yet two last episodes are by far most conventional for this genre. It isn't only problem with ending, but also how we got there. Red herring that I pointed out is good example, there are also other extreme tropes like magic computer typing. I probably could live with it, if it was mid-season, but finale?

Marty telling that he is fine in hospital was emotional peak in finale for me. The last dialogue on the other hand - it felt like Spielberg-type ending to me (ending of the ending, where someone doesn't know where to stop). You can argue that most of monologues, where full of wisdom that writer wanted to convey and ending was no exception. The difference for me was that before this wisdom-telling underlined omnipresent tension - smell of aluminum and ash. Cathartic moment? Not for me, since buildup leading to last moment was very conventional and I felt like I have seen that before somewhere else with writer calming down his children and saying its alright at the end.

Alternative ending I could think of: "Paperboy" film anyone?
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Neil

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2014, 08:56:15 PM »
+2
I've been considering the parallels that can be drawn between Nietzsche and Rust.  Some of you are too dismissive for such heavy concepts or as far as the philosophy in the show comes across, but I wouldn't expect anything else. After all, most people think they can be reductive with philosophy/philosophers in general and they couldn't be more wrong.  So, I just want to say a couple things quickly that i'll probably regret later.


1. Nietzsche, much like rust, is the type of person who speaks to us in aphorisms and makes statements (bold ones) based on self reflection. Let me also point out, Nietzsche suggests that one should live the life of a murderer, however you MUST deal with consequences.  The tail end of the previous sentence is very important to consider because most people just look at Nietzsche as a cynic, but again there's something more important going on there, you must deal with your choices. 

With Nietzsche we see a philosophical approach that is unique. By this i mean, it differs from the classical structure that was built by Platonic schools of thought (and even sophism and other pre socratic schools) and was also continued/enhanced by Aristotelian thought as well.  Rust is not only a man of action, and a man who's ready to deal with the consequences of his actions, he is also a man who isn't interested in the traditional approach of policing to solve this particular problem. He knows that the system at hand is broken so he must go above the system to solve the problems at hand.  One could make a similar summary about Nietzsche as well.  Rust decides to go rogue, outside of dominant paradigm, and it's important to note because this does not follow the tradition of police work either, much like Nietzsche refused to follow the traditional path of philosophizing the way the ancients did, despite how well versed he was in them.


2.  This show is very much Arnold vs. Nietzsche. More on this later, if I don't decide to delete this in the mean time.


BTW the way Nietzsche wound up hugging a horse based on what we know of his later days, and Rust wound up saying the most uncharacteristic words we could imagine as viewers. Both of those men ended up in places far from where they started and they both used similar methods within their approach.  They both found a little bit of humanity at the end of the day in spite of all the darkness.

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Pubrick

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #131 on: March 31, 2014, 01:06:18 AM »
+3
Dude Nietzsche went insane.

He didn't find humanity, he lost his mind.

The more consistent parallel to draw would be to say Rust also lost his mind at the end, much like Pizza face lost control of his characters and themes, he literally lost the plot.
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03

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #132 on: April 11, 2014, 12:52:02 AM »
+7

/end show

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #133 on: April 11, 2014, 01:24:57 PM »
0

/end show

That's an incredibly precise vocal impression. I am impressed.
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Neil

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Re: True Detective
« Reply #134 on: April 11, 2014, 09:47:19 PM »
0
Alright Pubrick (sorry for the late response, been living in the dark ages with no internet), i take back the "finding humanity part." However, I stand by the rest. 
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