Author Topic: Game of Thrones (spoilers)  (Read 60482 times)

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polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #480 on: July 24, 2017, 02:11:19 PM »
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I think it's just the former, not the latter. Realizing that Nymeria is wild makes sense. But I don't think that encounter was enough to make her change course again. It would be weird from a storytelling perspective to have her switch directions and head to Winterfell, then switch directions back and resume where she was going, all in one episode. Her face didn't say "I'm going the wrong way" to me at all. Just coming to peace with Nymeria's autonomy.

I'm probably over-reading it. Still, I don't think Arya makes it to Winterfell either way. She will be diverted somehow before she gets there.
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #481 on: July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PM »
+1
How about this: Cersei tortures Ellaria (and/or her daughter) in public for killing Myrcella. (Minor Spoiler!) Actually, next week's episode is called The Queen's Justice, so something like that seems all but certain.

The one thing that wasn't clear enough for me is who died there, because we get a glimpse of someone hanged (Yara right?) and another woman nailed there who I thought was Elaria, but now that you say this I think Elaria and her other girl are alive, now that I remember she pleads to be killed and they say no, but that shot was too dark to see, I blame my confusion to either the director or the editors.

Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.


So many random character things made me happy. Tyrion vouching for Jon. Sansa vouching for Tyrion! It's playing out exactly how I hoped. The only thing missing: Daenerys and Jon need to understand each other. This goes beyond their immediate practical needs — they need to understand what their camps have in common ideologically. Can they sit down and have a heart-to-heart?

Told you! I called that and I'm glad that happened, can't wait to see it.

When Jon left Winterfell, his little conflict with Sansa actually played out to both his and her advantage. Sansa showed that she has strong feelings about the North and loyalty, surely stirring the emotions of all the Stark-lovers in the room. You could really see Ned in Sansa's principled defiance. So everyone the Starks need to keep loyal are totally on board with Sansa. She proved herself right before she took power. Which was given to her, not sought, bestowing even more honor. I feel like this is explicitly setting the stage for Sansa eventually ruling the North on her own.

Arya is definitely dispatching Littlefinger when she gets back home, right? It would be funny if she uses a face that's already in her portfolio and frames the murder on a dead person.

Littlefinger, by the way, has no clue what he's doing. Just riding the wave of chaos until something clicks. And I really don't think it's going to happen for him.

You know, there's one thing that keeps bothering me to no end every time I see LF with any Stark, specially Sansa but this comes since the second season when he meets Cat. In this world words travel fast, it is known (sorry), so how the hell word never traveled that LF put a knife in Ned's neck at the throne room? And even what he said, “I told you not to trust me”, I mean Varys was there, so how come he never mentioned that to Sansa? Only mild warnings that she shouldn't trust him and all that, that meeting with Catelyn at Renly’s camp, we know Renly knew something about it because he didn't stay at King's Landing, not one person told Catelyn how the betrayal worked out when she joined Renly? Seriously.

Right now Sansa should know about it, I can't believe she is clueless but let's just say she doesn't know that, but by now she must have told Jon how LF killed her aunt and how he gave her to Ramsey and all that shit, even if he saved them at the battle, his head should be in a spike, if she came clean now that he killed Aunt Lysa sure enough the Lords of the Vale would understand, and his idiot cousin would want to throw him through the moon door, but there he is alive and trying to poison Jon and Sansa’s relationship.

And…in this episode, what happened between Jon and LF down in the crypts, that was something worth sharing with Sansa BEFORE he leaves, but no, he goes straight to his horse to hit the road.

I'm probably over-reading it. Still, I don't think Arya makes it to Winterfell either way. She will be diverted somehow before she gets there.

She could meet again with the hound and the brotherhood without banners...

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #482 on: July 24, 2017, 03:21:39 PM »
+1
Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.

Same. Great foreshadowing/mirroring in the previous scene, too. Yara says Theon will be her protector, then Theon "fails to intervene" when Ellaria moves in on her.


Told you! I called that and I'm glad that happened, can't wait to see it.

Yeah, Tyrion vouched for Jon in exactly the way you said he would. Tyrion even used the quote you referenced, I think, in his letter to Jon.


You know, there's one thing that keeps bothering me to no end every time I see LF with any Stark, specially Sansa but this comes since the second season when he meets Cat. In this world words travel fast, it is known (sorry), so how the hell word never traveled that LF put a knife in Ned's neck at the throne room? And even what he said, “I told you not to trust me”, I mean Varys was there, so how come he never mentioned that to Sansa? Only mild warnings that she shouldn't trust him and all that, that meeting with Catelyn at Renly’s camp, we know Renly knew something about it because he didn't stay at King's Landing, not one person told Catelyn how the betrayal worked out when she joined Renly? Seriously.

I hope you're wrong about who knows, because that's a significant plot hole. I wonder if a few people knew but didn't want to risk becoming Littlefinger's enemy.

How about this. When Jon meets with Daenerys's camp, they want to know who's in his camp. He reveals that Littlefinger is there — then Varys gives him a dire warning and reveals Littlefinger's collaboration against Ned. Then perhaps Olenna chimes in too: "Oh yes, he helped me assassinate someone once, wouldn't trust that dude."

There are theories that Arya will kill Littlefinger, take his face, and sow chaos as him. Which is like... chaos upon chaos. Or maybe she'll have specific objectives. She could probably get a meeting with Cersei or Jaime as Littlefinger. If she wants to preserve plausible deniability for her loved ones, maybe she will stop short of Winterfell and catch Littlefinger taking a pee outside or something.


And…in this episode, what happened between Jon and LF down in the crypts, that was something worth sharing with Sansa BEFORE he leaves, but no, he goes straight to his horse to hit the road.

I think we've learned that Jon and Sansa have serious communication issues. Best that he's leaving, because that gets a little frustrating to watch.
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polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #483 on: July 24, 2017, 04:09:24 PM »
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Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.

Same. Great foreshadowing/mirroring in the previous scene, too. Yara says Theon will be her protector, then Theon "fails to intervene" when Ellaria moves in on her.

That scene also mirrored Ramsey forcing Theon to watch him rape Sansa. Yara inadvertently triggered the PTSD that then prevented him from attempting to save her.
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #484 on: July 24, 2017, 05:15:48 PM »
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The one thing that wasn't clear enough for me is who died there, because we get a glimpse of someone hanged (Yara right?) and another woman nailed there who I thought was Ellaria, but now that you say this I think Ellaria and her other girl are alive, now that I remember she pleads to be killed and they say no, but that shot was too dark to see, I blame my confusion to either the director or the editors.

I saw again the scene and just realized that the one hanged is the Sand Snake with the whip, in fact they used her own whip to hang her, and the other one is the sister that Euron killed first with a sword through her stomach, so...Yara must be alive and locked, I'm telling you they fucked up with that scene, why create confusion? Unless it was clear with everyone else except me.

polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #485 on: July 24, 2017, 05:28:10 PM »
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It makes sense that Ellaria would be (at least part of) the gift Euron is bringing to Cersei, since Ellaria murdered Cersei's daughter.
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #486 on: July 25, 2017, 01:06:05 PM »
+1
Are we sure Arya's actually going through with heading back to Winterfell? I interpreted her interaction with Nymeria as a realization that she's changed too much to go back to the way things were. "That's not you" means both that Nymeria has become a wild animal that needs to roam free, and that Arya is now a magical murder ninja whose sole purpose is bloody justice.


polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #487 on: July 25, 2017, 05:45:50 PM »
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I feel like that kinda sorta maybe supports my interpretation, somewhat? I definitely went too far in my initial read of it. Rewatching the scene, I agree that Arya is still sticking to the plan of heading to Winterfell, but I definitely think the encounter with Nymeria planted a seed of doubt in her mind.
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Drenk

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #488 on: July 25, 2017, 05:51:55 PM »
+1
"Who am I?" is a question she's maybe asking herself now. Martin is playing with the notion in the books, giving nicknames to many characters instead of their first name...
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #489 on: July 26, 2017, 06:31:20 PM »
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Speculation spoilers

I've heard convincing arguments from two good sources (non-Reddit, not informed by the production leak) that Cersei will survive the season. Tied up in this line of thinking is that Daenerys will actually beat the white walkers first, then finally conquer Westeros next season. Any thoughts?

In previews, we've seen unsullied in Casterly Rock. It seems likely that Daenerys's forces will take it. That presents a practical dilemma, though.

Here's one solution:

- Dany takes Casterly Rock.
- White walkers breach the wall. (Shouldn't be too hard, with their frozen giants and whatnot.)
- Dany decides to just hold Casterly Rock for now. Instead of advancing to King's Landing, she turns north to fight the white walkers.
- Dany leaves someone behind (unsullied and/or Dothraki) to hold Casterly Rock. She fights the white walkers with the rest of her forces and wins.

Cersei refuses to help fight the walkers, so Dany & Jon beat them alone, giving them hero status and the political capital to take King's Landing and rule Westeros, which would happen next season.

I think that makes sense. But maybe it's not surprising enough. Some alternatives would involve Euron flirting with the white walkers, given his history with the occult.
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Drenk

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #490 on: July 26, 2017, 06:49:23 PM »
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Speculative Spoilers


It makes a lot of sense. It's not surprising, but they've always cared more about the execution–even if, like for the boat scene, it can seem rushed. The white walkers in the books are an headache for Martin, I think, and that's probably why he is taking so long to write the last books. He's so good at depicting that world like a realistic one, creating a proliferation of stories, backstories and characters that he lost track of the surnatural...The show can deal with the white walkers once and for all with a big climatic fight. But it shouldn't be how it all ends.
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Lottery

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #491 on: July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PM »
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From what I've heard, apparently there are far too many stories to properly tie up over the course of 2 books while coordinating the winter apocalypse.

The thing is that even if the WW are beaten, 'The Game' can never end but I think the WW need to be endgame sort of thing in the story. It all leads up to that point. I'm not sure if GRRM has the time to finish the books and then be able to describe the aftermath/fallout of the events with possible power vacuum' and revolts and so on.

It's hard to picture an actual human fighting for the WW, maybe Euron + Cersei (assuming Euron doesn't betray Cersei) thinking that they can let the WW take out the others so they can take over but then they get totally wrecked by the WW for underestimating them. I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I think the series will end with the world deep in a long winter, many of our favourites dead but the WW defeated- Westeros somewhat returning to the ages of myth. Or is that too trad fantasy and not GRRM enough?

EDIT:

Also, I wonder how they're going to handle the really important prophecies. I'm always a bit iffy about them.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #492 on: July 26, 2017, 09:31:06 PM »
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'The Game' can never end

Do you think Daenerys will succeed in breaking the wheel? Seems likely that if she doesn't "end" the game, she will change it entirely.

I would be comfortable with the WW being defeated enough that they go dormant but remain an eternal threat. You know, periodically testing humanity's ability to come together to fight for their own existence. But from a storytelling perspective, I think the political change needs to be transformational.

It's hard to picture an actual human fighting for the WW, maybe Euron + Cersei thinking that they can let the WW take out the others so they can take over but then they get totally wrecked by the WW for underestimating them.

Apparently in a preview chapter, Euron gets himself a set of Valyrian steel armor. So now there's a theory that he will at least seek out the white walkers (feeling safe in his armor). And there's a thread in the books about Euron seeking knowledge of magic and the occult in his travels, wanting to become a god and conquer the world. He'd certainly have a shot of doing that leading the white walkers, perhaps as one of them. I wouldn't mind seeing Ice-Euron.

I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I actually think the world has been developed so carefully as a grounded reality in order to earn those supernatural payoffs. We've seen this periodically throughout the story. And in every season. Like the end of Season 4, when you suddenly have a child of the forest shooting magic fireballs. It works and is mindblowing because it was earned.

I'll also predict this: GoT goes full supernatural, unapologetically, showing you everything. I think it's pretty likely that GRRM would like to blow things wide open. (Lost did that too, and it was not to everyone's taste. Same thing could happen with ASOIAF/GoT fans.)
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #493 on: July 30, 2017, 06:55:25 PM »
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Speculation spoilers

In previews, we've seen unsullied in Casterly Rock. It seems likely that Daenerys's forces will take it. That presents a practical dilemma, though.

Here's one solution:

- Dany takes Casterly Rock.
- White walkers breach the wall. (Shouldn't be too hard, with their frozen giants and whatnot.)
- Dany decides to just hold Casterly Rock for now. Instead of advancing to King's Landing, she turns north to fight the white walkers.
- Dany leaves someone behind (unsullied and/or Dothraki) to hold Casterly Rock. She fights the white walkers with the rest of her forces and wins.

Cersei refuses to help fight the walkers, so Dany & Jon beat them alone, giving them hero status and the political capital to take King's Landing and rule Westeros, which would happen next season.

I like your theory.

As I said before I hope Cersei has a big win before her inevitable defeat and Dorne doesn't count for me anymore, I mean a win made by herself (plan and execution). It looks thou she will have her revenge against Ellaria, oh what horrors await her...in all fairness she deserves it because as awful as Cersei and Tywin were it's not like they forced Oberyn to fight, he offered and lost fair and square and she went crazy and did all the shit we know.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #494 on: July 30, 2017, 08:12:48 PM »
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It is definitely a more even match now.

I just took a look back at E2 to see exactly what Daenerys has lost. From what I can gather, in addition to Ellaria and Yara, she has lost all of Yara's forces and ships (what used to be Euron's "best ships"). That's not great, but it seems clear that Dany didn't lose more than that in that battle.

Seems doubtful Dorne will rally to Daenerys's aid without Ellaria. But maybe Varys can go there and convince them.

The Unsullied were to take Casterly Rock, so they are still with Daenerys. The Dothraki are a complete mystery; I assume they've stayed with Daenerys to protect her and perhaps to be the final force that she rides in with.

If Daenerys really has lost Randyll Tarly's army, that is a brutal loss. His forces were a significant part of the Tyrell army, and the best of them from what I understand.

I think the ballistas will actually be a significant threat just by virtue of their numbers. If Qyburn is producing enough (and I'm sure he is), they will probably be fired like a hail of arrows. They can't not hit a dragon at some point.
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