Game of Thrones (spoilers)

[Tictacbk]

You mean you guys didn't think they needed another scene to show how horrible Ramsey is?  Feel like there hasn't been much of that in the series...

[03]

that scene was not very shocking or iconic of the series, i feel like media is trying to make it that.



spoilers had they included the dogs howeverend spoilers

[polkablues]

It is being blown wildly out of proportion, yes. Sensitivity is one thing, a crucial thing even, but when you start to separate out segments of the human experience and award them protected class status, you're doing a disservice to both the breadth of human experience and to the art of storytelling. At the very, very, VERY least, give the show a chance to get where it's going with it before deciding it crossed some uncrossable line.

The fact that so many people are using the "it wasn't in the books" line of attack is particularly telling. The implication being that if it were a minor side character in the same situation (as in the books), it would be more acceptable.

[Jeremy Blackman]

The fact that so many people are using the "it wasn't in the books" line of attack is particularly telling. The implication being that if it were a minor side character in the same situation (as in the books), it would be more acceptable.

Except it absolutely would be.

I don't object to rape being used in the story. I don't object to emotionally horrifying or crazy gruesome scenes. The Red Wedding and Oberyn's death both basically delighted me. What I object to is that the TV show has decided that most of the principal female players must experience rape to more fully develop their characters.

It's becoming a distasteful storytelling shortcut, and applying it to Sansa seems egregious at this point. It feels especially gross with her because she is a really convenient candidate for a shocking storyline. The audience has a special emotional attachment to her, and she has already suffered so much, such that grinding her even further into the dirt and inflicting even deeper trauma has a particular impact that's just too hard to resist.

What has been equally problematic is what comes after the rapes. Daenerys falls in love. Cersei and Jaime continue as if it didn't happen. Sansa will, I don't know, be rescued? Continue to make incongruously moronic decisions and be swept wherever the plot finds her useful? These stories are different in the books for a reason; they actually make sense. I bring up the book version not because I have any attachment, but because at least GRRM knew how to tell a coherent story.

I will hold out hope that the show can salvage this character, but here's the thing. Certain things have to be done to get her back on track in the larger narrative. As that re-convergence eventually happens, her motivation, her agency, and arguably the soul of her character will have already been replaced with whatever she gets out of this dumb rape story.

[Jeremy Blackman]

"He already hurts me every night. All day I'm locked in this room, and every night he comes. It can't be any worse."

"It can. It can always be worse."

^ Also an apt description of the show's handling of Sansa's story.

Last week, worst case scenario, I imagined that Sansa would escape this week, or that at least some measure of revenge would be carried out. But they decided to prolong and intensify Sansa's suffering. Imprisoned by day, beaten and raped every night. (The bruises were a nice touch.)

This is probably even more distasteful than last week. But I understand, Sansa is such a ripe target for twisting the audience's emotions, how could you not take advantage of that?

And to what possible end?

- To expand on Sansa's sufferingness? That's been a feature of her character so long, and it's now flooding out every other aspect of her to the extent that she's becoming a joke.

- To convince us just how evil Ramsay is? It goes without saying, that task was accomplished long ago. Everything he does now feels redundant. He's also becoming a joke.

- We get some kind of brutally righteous vengeance, made more satisfying by the duration and intensity of Sansa's suffering. Okay, I guess revenge is fun, but sacrificing Sansa's character doesn't seem worth it.

- Sansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

I literally cannot think of a way this can be redeemed. I think I'm pretty much numb to it now, though. I've stopped caring about Sansa's character. Part of me wants to just wait until this idiocy is over, consider it non-canon, and pretend Sansa is picking up where she left off.

. . .

The rest of the episode was quite good. Tyrion meeting Daenerys was the most thrilling moment for me; I can't think of a more interesting or satisfying way for them to meet. This is the storyline where I need to know what happens next ASAP.

Cersei's imprisonment was great of course too, watching that dread slowly come over her. The way it then played out was laughably unrealistic, but dramatic nonetheless.

[Fernando]

Last week, worst case scenario, I imagined that Sansa would escape this week, or that at least some measure of revenge would be carried out. But they decided to prolong and intensify Sansa's suffering. Imprisoned by day, beaten and raped every night. (The bruises were a nice touch.)

Never crossed my mind that Sansa would get something positive this soon, she's Ramsey's new play thing and he won't let go, however, you did notice that she took something with her right? I didn't see what it was but I think it sounded like a little piece of metal, I think that could be used before this season ends, on Ramsey I hope…

here:


One minor positive thing happened when Ramsey (accidentally?) told her that Jon was now the lord commander, I saw in her face a little hope, which was then crushed when she saw the old lady flayed.

This is probably even more distasteful than last week. But I understand, Sansa is such a ripe target for twisting the audience's emotions, how could you not take advantage of that?

And to what possible end?

- To expand on Sansa's sufferingness? That's been a feature of her character so long, and it's now flooding out every other aspect of her to the extent that she's becoming a joke.

- To convince us just how evil Ramsay is? It goes without saying, that task was accomplished long ago. Everything he does now feels redundant. He's also becoming a joke.

- We get some kind of brutally righteous vengeance, made more satisfying by the duration and intensity of Sansa's suffering. Okay, I guess revenge is fun, but sacrificing Sansa's character doesn't seem worth it.

- Sansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

I literally cannot think of a way this can be redeemed. I think I'm pretty much numb to it now, though. I've stopped caring about Sansa's character. Part of me wants to just wait until this idiocy is over, consider it non-canon, and pretend Sansa is picking up where she left off.

Since this isn't even in the books I guess we will eventually see Sana's revenge in a way (and that pay off should be huge), but will it be in this season? And, like you well put, will her suffering serve the story in a satisfying way? This is why if her ordeal continuous I'll give in and read her story in the books.

Now, will reek grow some balls and help Sansa? that doesn't seem likely does it? and her candle signal is fucked, so even if she or reek could go to the tower Ramsey knows about it, but...given the kind of psycho Ramsey is maybe he will lit it himself just for fun and Brienne will come to the rescue which could be her downfall or his, also let's not forget that if she sees Stannis banners that can too come in play..and all three parties involved will clash. So many possibilities there.

The rest of the episode was quite good. Tyrion meeting Daenerys was the most thrilling moment for me; I can't think of a more interesting or satisfying way for them to meet. This is the storyline where I need to know what happens next ASAP.

Best episode of the season so far, that's a meeting didn't think would happen so soon, I'm glad, next week should be sweet.

Cersei's imprisonment was great of course too, watching that dread slowly come over her. The way it then played out was laughably unrealistic, but dramatic nonetheless.

agree, first, why wasn't she guarded? even in the castle she's guarded! although I'm realizing that they don't aloud guards in there, nevertheless, she should had seen that coming, but she's so blinded by her "power" that she fell into her own trap.

If this doesn't get Tommen to take action nothing will, but he has no good counselors, only Maester Pycelle and Qyburn...


Littlefinger again with his games, that young man he mentions to Lady Oleanna is Lancel? does he intend to incarcerate her too?


also great that scene of Bronn with the Sand snakes, I thought he was done but then that girl saved him, which is kind of odd, does she has a real thing for him?

[Jeremy Blackman]

Never crossed my mind that Sansa would get something positive this soon, she's Ramsey's new play thing and he won't let go

I can't shake the feeling that Sansa is also the producers' plaything. This anecdote doesn't help:

Last season [Thrones director] Alex Graves decided to give me hints. He was saying, “You get a love interest next season.” And I was all, “I actually get a love interest!” So I get the scripts and I was so excited and I was flicking through and then I was like, “Aw, are you kidding me!?”

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-wedding

This is the most obvious excessive overkill story the series has ever done. When you combine that kind of hamfistedness with the tastelessness and special rapeyness that the show has earned a reputation for, the whole storyline is just gross and boring.

I didn't even mention the attempted rape of Gilly, which, I found out, is yet another show creation not from the books. We need some intensity in this scene... why not rape? We're missing a character motivation here. Hmm you know what, rape will do.

I'm imagining there's one guy on the writer's staff who always chimes in "what if she gets raped?" whenever they discuss a female character. They usually ignore him, but in the end they have to let a certain number of rapes through (because of the union).

Side note: I am definitely enjoying the egg on the face of those who were saying last week, "But really, is it rape? They're married. She had to expect something like that." Oh really, does the average Westeros wedding night begin with blood-curdling screams? Idiots.

however, you did notice that she took something with her right? I didn't see what it was but I think it sounded like a little piece of metal, I think that could be used before this season ends, on Ramsey I hope…

Yeah I hope so, but it seems just as likely that she'll be caught with it. As you said, it seems like they're orchestrating a convergence between Stannis, Bolton, Brienne, and Sansa, all at Winterfell. So yes, if you read those signs, Sansa's torture could continue until the penultimate episode of the season (traditionally the battle episode). An escape before then would be vastly more interesting, but I'm not counting on it. Their choice here could actually be a good litmus test for whether the show has gotten lost in its own formula.

Either way, the Sansa story is such transparently manipulative garbage that I find myself taken out of it and don't have much emotionally invested in it anymore. I doubt the producers were going for numbness or rejection, but that's what they've achieved.

agree, first, why wasn't she guarded? even in the castle she's guarded! although I'm realizing that they don't aloud guards in there, nevertheless, she should had seen that coming, but she's so blinded by her "power" that she fell into her own trap.

What seemed weird to me was that their reveal was so choreographed and theatrical (complete with key figures stepping out of the shadows on cue), as if playing for some audience beyond Cersei. After she's dragged away I imagine them all high-fiving and congratulating each other on a great performance. It was still fun, though. Not complaining.

I really couldn't guess how this plot will be resolved, so it's pretty exciting. As Cersei said, if Tommen sends the army against the Faith Militant, they could execute the prisoners immediately, or at least hold them hostage.

Oh actually, here's my prediction... Petyr Baelish: hostage negotiator.

[Fernando]

I really couldn't guess how this plot will be resolved, so it's pretty exciting. As Cersei said, if Tommen sends the army against the Faith Militant, they could execute the prisoners immediately, or at least hold them hostage.

Oh actually, here's my prediction... Petyr Baelish: hostage negotiator.

I thought that too, but given that Littlefinger owns a brothel, if he negotiates wouldn't he be too walking into a trap? why would the Septon give him a pass? IIRC Littlefinger even provided Loras a few season ago Olyvar who later betrayed him causing his and her sister their imprisonment...

yet, I can see Baelish being involved somehow but without getting too close to the sun; or maybe Tommen reaches out Lady Oleanna?


what do you think of this?

Littlefinger again with his games, that young man he mentions to Lady Oleanna is Lancel? does he intend to incarcerate her too?

he says to her and I quote: "I have a gift for you, the same kind of gift I gave Cersei, a handsome young man"
who if not Lancel is Littlefinger talking about? or is it Olyver? either way, what could she get out of them? and all this apparently happened before Cersei was caught...

[Jeremy Blackman]

I was joking about the hostage negotiator thing, but yeah I think Littlefinger has to be involved in Margaery's release at the very least.

The Lancel part utterly confuses me. Littlefinger can't be talking about Lancel, right, because Lancel's return was a while ago? How would Littlefinger have any direct influence over Lancel at this point?

I do think Littlefinger is entirely on the Tyrells' side right now.

[03]

I don't even care about this show anymore so can someone tell me what was so amazing about last nights episode that no one else will spoil for me?

[Drenk]

You should watch that episode. Or just the last twenty minutes.

[Fernando]

03, you should watch the whole episode, if you don't want to watch the last 30 minutes, but really, watch it all.



SPOILS S05E08

great episode.

Jon Snow
so, not only dragon glass kills white walkers but valyrian steel too...

these guys are getting really good at battles, everything looked great, the giant, the WW, etc.


Sansa
well at least she now knows reek didn't kill her brothers, one good thing has happened.


Bolton
I know that predicting is almost pointless but I fear Stannis will be defeated by these assholes...or will have to use her daughter, Ramsey's plan to get to Stannis with only 20 men sounds daring but my feeling is that he will infiltrate his troops and try to get to him.


Arya
right now I don't really understand her story, I read somewhere that by the last episode everything will make more sense, she was by far one my fave characters but her last episodes have been a little dull.

Daenerys & Tyrion
it's so good to see those two together, Tyrion seems like a great adviser, I hope Varys enters the picture again with those two, he has to right? Tyrion already vouched for him.

poor Jorah had to go again, what will he gain by fighting for her? a second chance to be with her? because serving that guy seems pointless, although he's sick so maybe he doesn't give a shit anymore.

Cersei
it's crazy but I want Cersei to have her revenge, she's evil and dumb but I want her to succeed on this one, how the hell will she get out?

remember back in the first episode Qyburn had ''something'' at his table, I believe that is the mountain, will he use him for her rescue?

[Jeremy Blackman]

To answer that question, we got a significant amount of explicit white walker action. Basically more than anyone ever expected to get this early. It's good.

It came so out of left field that I need to re-watch it for a fair assessment. Coming where it does in this season, it felt like supernatural overload. I'm not complaining... I just don't think I've properly processed it yet.

The spellcasting scene at the end of "The Children" (where one of the titular children started zapping/exploding a bunch of walkers) had an entirely different effect on me. It blew my mind and made me more excited than any other supernatural scene in the entire series. It was similarly out of left field, but it was so well-done (the sound design was masterful), and more important, tightly-packed and brief. It truly felt like supernatural things suddenly happening in a real world.

In the setpiece last night, it was something we had sort of seen before, but in a far more terrifying context, where the walkers posed an actual immediate threat to a bunch of important characters. The effect was dread and anxiety and a bit of hopelessness, like how are they ever going to overcome this enemy?

That (rather than the actual battling) was the strength of it, and I'm glad they ended on that note. The moment where Jon Snow, terrified, met eyes with the white walker across the water, was classic.

I have mixed feelings about the rest of the episode. I was so looking forward to the Tyrion/Daenerys matchup, but I can't help but feel like it landed with a thud. I mean, I guess it's completely realistic that Tyrion's speaking gets hyper-formal and awkward, but unfortunately I think it sheds a stark light on Peter Dinklage's terrible accent. It was pretty bad last night. Also the first interaction didn't feel particularly true to his character (perhaps because they're beyond the books here). Things improved significantly in their one-on-one meeting... I was so relieved when Tyrion finally made a joke, and Daenerys dealt with him in a way that made sense. I can't wait until they get more comfortable with each other and Tyrion can move past his stilted talk for good, because theirs could be one of the best duos. Maybe they need to bond during a road trip.

Jorah's life choices have seriously begun to annoy me, but at the same time his character is becoming more interesting with each episode. Anyway I wonder if dragon blood cures greyscale or something like that. Another hand-amputation would be redundant.

Arya
right now I don't really understand her story, I read somewhere that by the last episode everything will make more sense, she was by far one my fave characters but her last episodes have been a little dull.

From what I understand, Arya is sort of auditioning as an imposter, trying it out without actually using someone else's face yet. The point, as per the two-faced god, seems to be to bring justice in one way or another. That's why Arya is so excited about this, being really into revenge and whatnot.

Cersei
it's crazy but I want Cersei to have her revenge, she's evil and dumb but I want her to succeed on this one, how the hell will she get out?

remember back in the first episode Qyburn had ''something'' at his table, I believe that is the mountain, will he use him for her rescue?

I like that prediction. I just hope it's different enough from Frankenstein's monster.

Surely Qyburn can pull off something else, like gassing that whole place. Isn't he into chemical weapons?

I would still like Baelish to be involved in the resolution, which could very well end with Cersei being out of power.

[Fernando]

even if Cersei gets out and has her revenge with that nun, I can't forget what the witch said to her in that flashback, basically she said she would lose all...


saw again the battle and just remembered that the thing I feared most was that the walkers wouldn't get to the giant, can you imagine a giant white walker? he would end all, they'd probably need a catapult full of dragon glass to beat that thing.

[Sleepless]

Wow, that final scene