Author Topic: Game of Thrones (spoilers)  (Read 61093 times)

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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #240 on: April 14, 2015, 05:07:42 PM »
+1
How did people like the premiere?

I thought it was a very good table-setting episode. I'm most excited about Tyrion and Varys meeting up with Daenerys. That can't be anything but satisfying. It also sort of tips their hand in terms of where things are going on a macro level. We have two out of three heroes meeting up (Tyrion and Daenerys), leaving only the third, Jon Snow, who should also have an interest in Daenerys's success.

DEEP SPECULATION AND POSSIBLE BOOK SPOILERS, HONESTLY NOT SURE

This hasn't happened in the books from what I understand, but a Jon Snow / Daenerys / Tyrion triad is probably the most likely setup for the climax of this whole story. This is supported by the fact that Jon Snow and Tyrion are very likely both half Targaryen, via Tyrion's real father, and Jon's actual parentage (which is complicated). There are fan theories for both, supported by pretty convincing evidence. The chosen ones are always half-breeds, aren't they?

What's more, they might be directly related. I find it pretty clever that in the beginning we thought this story was about the Stark family, but it might end up being about the Targaryen family.
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #241 on: April 14, 2015, 06:17:47 PM »
+1
How did people like the premiere?

I thought it was a very good table-setting episode. I'm most excited about Tyrion and Varys meeting up with Daenerys.

Just to clarify, haven't read books 3-4-5 so everything I say is a supposition.

agree, that meeting should be sweet but I have a feeling that won't happen this season (if ever), if in fact that happens I wonder how well received they would be, given that Varys tipped off Robert Baratheon via Jora Mormont about her pregnancy and that it was the child of Drogo, maybe they don't know that much.

on the other hand, both of them can provide a lot of insight about the status who's who in Kingslanding.

Last season the one thing that bothered me was that NO ONE questioned who killed Joffrey, everyone except Cersei knew he didn't do it but never cared to find out who, I wonder if Varys ever suspected Baelish, if soomeone doesnt' trust that guy is him, but we never saw a single conversation about it...


That can't be anything but satisfying. It also sort of tips their hand in terms of where things are going on a macro level. We have two out of three heroes meeting up (Tyrion and Daenerys), leaving only the third, Jon Snow, who should also have an interest in Daenerys's success.

Just three heroes? You are leaving out Arya and even Sansa.

I have no clue what would be the end game for Arya, right now she will be at Braavos and I guess at some point she will meet again with Jaqen and then? is she going to be faceless? if so, she has to go back and avenge all that did her wrong. This journey of Arya better pays off at some point or else I will feel cheated.

And Sansa, right now that's also a big question mark for me, Baelish is ''protecting'' her and all but that creep is the detonator for pretty much everything that has happened, did Tyrion never told her that he betrayed his father? and now with aunt Lysa death will she connect the dots at some point? I thought that she being death meant nobody would ever know what he did, but I saw again that episode where she wants to push Sansa through the moon door and she tells her: ''My father, my husband, my sister, they all stood between us and now they're all death'', so she has to connect the dots right? I think she's already playing him but to what end?

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #242 on: April 14, 2015, 07:59:00 PM »
+1
I forgot to mention, it's argued in the Rotten Tomatoes podcast recap that Mance Rayder actually made the correct pragmatic decision by not "bending the knee." Highly recommend listening to that.

I don't count Arya or Sansa as heroes in the way that Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion are. They have a sense of honor and nobility that Arya and Sansa haven't developed or simply don't possess.

Arya is a wildcard and a bit of a scoundrel. Certainly she has her list, but any sense of justice therein is kind of spoiled by her taste for blood.

Sansa has long been one of my favorite characters, and I get the sense that she's a better character in the show than she is in the books. (And the reverse may be true for Arya.) But as she's grown up, she has gone from trauma to peril to more peril to (basically) a permanent state of peril. She is in adaptation mode. Her origin story includes the loss of honor (and her wolf along with it, symbolically), and now under Littlefinger's wing she is learning to cloak and deceive. Sansa seems compromised for the time being. I would welcome a heroic turn, but I don't see her being central in the way Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon surely will be.

I think the character I actually left out is Bran. I'm not sure he'll be a fully rich heroic character, but he's certainly going to warg him some dragons.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #243 on: April 15, 2015, 10:55:31 AM »
0
So, I don't know, I feel less confident about my theory today. Anytime something feels fated to happen, it's subverted. That is probably the major problem with the series. Endless subversion gets tiresome. Endless suffering gets tiresome. If at least a few of these threads do not come to fruition in a marginally positive way, the whole thing will have been profoundly unsatisfying. At a certain point, characters need to stop being stomped on and start doing something that resembles fulfilling destiny, or what sense of gravitas will even be left? For example, if Daenerys does not conquer Westeros or at least defeat the white walkers with her dragons, what was the point of her character?
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #244 on: April 15, 2015, 01:05:04 PM »
0
NONSPECIFIC SEMI-SPOILER FOR THIS SEASON

I just read a show spoiler for something that is not in the books but almost certainly will be in the show, that I am definitely not okay with and will probably turn lots of people against the show. I frankly can't see any good reason for it, and it goes too far in exactly the way I was dreading. How the show will recover from it, I honestly have no idea. Anyway, enjoy the season!

If you really want to read this spoiler, you can do so here, and we can discuss it.
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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #245 on: April 15, 2015, 01:27:13 PM »
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that actually is in the books, but it's a different character. and i agree, i don't think they should do it, but according to the trailer, it looks like they will in some form or another.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #246 on: April 15, 2015, 01:35:18 PM »
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For it to be THIS character is beyond ridiculous. Especially now. I'm too angry right now to even elaborate. It's just self-evident that this is a bad idea, and I can't imagine how it could ever be justified as a storytelling decision.
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #247 on: April 15, 2015, 01:52:58 PM »
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haven't read that spoiler but now I'm nervous...

So, I don't know, I feel less confident about my theory today. Anytime something feels fated to happen, it's subverted. That is probably the major problem with the series. Endless subversion gets tiresome. Endless suffering gets tiresome. If at least a few of these threads do not come to fruition in a marginally positive way, the whole thing will have been profoundly unsatisfying. At a certain point, characters need to stop being stomped on and start doing something that resembles fulfilling destiny, or what sense of gravitas will even be left? For example, if Daenerys does not conquer Westeros or at least defeat the white walkers with her dragons, what was the point of her character?

Completely agree, and as I've said I feel the same about Arya, her ambitions are not as grand as Daenerys but the road she is taking seems to lead to a big pay off.

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #248 on: April 15, 2015, 01:54:38 PM »
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POSSIBLE VAGUE SPOILERS FOR THIS SEASON

i agree totally. the only thing i can come up with is that they want to keep their shock status and they want a new red weddingesque episode.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 02:38:06 PM by Jeremy Blackman »

Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #249 on: April 28, 2015, 12:24:45 AM »
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SPOILS S05E03.

Good episode.

Jon
that was a great chat between Jon and Davos and Stannis for that matter, I wonder if what Davos said to him will have an impact of sorts in the future, it feels like it will but with this show who the hell knows...


Sansa
can't believe I'm saying this but right now being with little finger no longer seems that awful, that marriage cant happen right? something or someone should prevent that...

Little Finger vs Bolton
now that's a match of deceivers, probably one of them wont get out alive.

Tyrion
and we were looking forward to his adventures with Varys and even thinking about (if for a brief moment) the meeting with Daenerys, read some ppl have doubts which queen Jorah is referring but to me it's clear he means Cersei.

Brienne
that was a great story, being saved by Renly, and I liked that pod puts the good word for Tyrion, being the only really good Lannister, although Jaime has redeemed himself IMO.

Margaery vs Cersei
I think Margaery is playing with fire, no way Cersei will just stand by while she steals his cub and mocks her.

Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #250 on: May 17, 2015, 10:14:26 PM »
0
is no one ever gonna comment here???

SPOILS S05E06

ok, that one really hurt.

it was brutal, Sansa cant catch a break.
until the very last moment thought something had to happen, and it did , the most horrible thing, I have the worst feeling about her, and little finger , wtf is he doing?


meanwhile, at kingslanding...the Tyrells vs Cersei war is on, cant imagine Lady Oleanna wiil just sit this one out, Cersei is probablu making a huge mistake...maybe.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #251 on: May 18, 2015, 01:09:10 AM »
+2
Yep. This is the predicted scene that I was dreading. My thoughts still apply:

I just read a show spoiler for something that is not in the books but almost certainly will be in the show, that I am definitely not okay with and will probably turn lots of people against the show. I frankly can't see any good reason for it, and it goes too far in exactly the way I was dreading. How the show will recover from it, I honestly have no idea. Anyway, enjoy the season!

For it to be THIS character is beyond ridiculous. Especially now. I'm too angry right now to even elaborate. It's just self-evident that this is a bad idea, and I can't imagine how it could ever be justified as a storytelling decision.

I have to say, the showrunners seem to be quite enamored of rape. They have now given us 3 big ol' juicy rapes that were not in the books: the rape of Daenerys, the rape of Cersei, and now the rape of Sansa. Two is a pattern, and it was talked about at the time, but three is an obsession.

In the books, the consummation of Daenerys's marriage (in her POV chapter) was written as a romantic scene, consensual, and even briefly erotic (and to be clear, erotic for her, since it is literally from her point of view), adorned with flowery language, and set near a peaceful forest stream if I remember correctly. (And I think I do remember, because of how awkward it was to hear the stilted British audiobook narrator say "her wetness.") In the TV show, they decided Daenerys should be raped instead, on a dark wind-swept cliff. They decided that instead of starting the love story before the marriage, they should try to have it after she's raped, when she learns to accept things and transform her sexual servitude into pseudo-consent. (Turn that rape upside-down, girl!) I suppose it was supposed to develop her character, except this departure only had ill effects on the storytelling. It ended up scrambling this character (Daenerys) into a sufferer of stockholm syndrome, a woman who against all odds fell in love with her rapist (a truly inspiring tale for wives in arranged marriages, one could argue). Anytime thereafter when she said "my sun and stars," fondly recalling her true love Khal Drogo, we could only be quietly baffled by the disconnect.

Likewise, Jaime and Cersei's sex scene next to their son's corpse was changed from consensual to, at the very least, a rapey grey area. Cersei's actual spoken dialogue from the book version is not just consensual, she commands it: "'Hurry,' she was whispering now, 'quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.'" In the show, we were given something significantly more ambiguous, which reintroduces that theme from TV Daenerys: non-consent becoming consent. It was more shocking with rape, so how could they resist?

And that's the problem with Sansa's rape. It feels like it's a piece on the board, moved to the square that says "big shocking scene that everyone will be talking about." But moreover, they wanted a new Red Wedding type scene that book readers could be shocked by too. This rape happens to a different character in the books, and it's much more gruesome. So they get to have it all ways, really: shock the newbies, and shock the book readers perhaps even more, since they carry the memories of the book scene. Have they damaged Sansa's character far worse than they damaged Daenerys? Quite possibly. Good luck recovering from this one, Game of Thrones. You've crossed a line.
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Fernando

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #252 on: May 18, 2015, 11:37:29 PM »
0
agree.

making something shocking for the sake of it is not how this show should be.

and I don't mind changes of some events that don't exist in the book, as long as the main characters stay on the path of the book.

like the relationship of Arya and Tywin, that was a great addition that never happens in the book, in fact Tywin as a character didn't do much in the first two books, that great scene of him and Jaime when he lectures him about the legacy of his family name from the first season also never happened.


so, knowing this shit that happened to Sansa never happened has made me consider to read her entire story, if the season ends and she still is Ramsey's new play toy, I will spoil myself.

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #253 on: May 19, 2015, 12:38:15 AM »
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If we're talking predictions, I think Sansa will be rescued quite soon. She has Brienne, all the random northerners, and Theon on her side.

Then, inevitably, the writers will use Sansa's rape as her character motivation going forward. What a shame it would be, and what a waste, turning Sansa, who was becoming quite complex and sort of great, into a one-dimensional character. Movies and TV are already so littered with the "rape as motivation" trope in its various forms (rape as motivation for revenge, rape as character-defining backstory, etc.). They almost can't avoid this route with Sansa now.

Also, logistically, they may not have the screen time to properly deal with Sansa's trauma, even if they possess that capability. I would give them the benefit of the doubt here, but they haven't exactly established credibility in this department.

. . .

Side note: How dumb and awkward was that entire confrontation scene in Dorne? It actually looked like the actors were hanging out in costumes rehearsing an alternate version. All three groups happened to converge on Myrcella at the same time?

Since one of the viper ladies had her blade to Myrcella's throat, why didn't she just kill her as the guards converged on them? Or hold her hostage with, you know, the blade to her throat?

Okay Myrcella, we were totally going to abduct you and then maybe kill you or whatever, but now seeing that there's a battle going on and this is definitely our very last chance to off you, we're actually going to just kind of grab you and pull you over here and hold you for a sec. Then, I dunno, maybe we'll escape with you, or maybe you'll be saved. Either way, we just do what we do. #YOLO

(Or did I miss something?)

And why, seeing that attempted abduction, did Jaime just stand in place and keep fighting?
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polkablues

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Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
« Reply #254 on: May 19, 2015, 01:38:59 AM »
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Side note: How dumb and awkward was that entire confrontation scene in Dorne? It actually looked like the actors were hanging out in costumes rehearsing an alternate version. All three groups happened to converge on Myrcella at the same time?

Since one of the viper ladies had her blade to Myrcella's throat, why didn't she just kill her as the guards converged on them? Or hold her hostage with, you know, the blade to her throat?

Okay Myrcella, we were totally going to abduct you and then maybe kill you or whatever, but now seeing that there's a battle going on and this is definitely our very last chance to off you, we're actually going to just kind of grab you and pull you over here and hold you for a sec. Then, I dunno, maybe we'll escape with you, or maybe you'll be saved. Either way, we just do what we do. #YOLO

(Or did I miss something?)

And why, seeing that attempted abduction, did Jaime just stand in place and keep fighting?

The scenes in Dorne all feel like a higher-budget episode of Xena: Warrior Princess.
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