XIXAX Film Forum

Film Discussion => The Small Screen => Topic started by: diggler on June 06, 2011, 02:39:04 PM

Title: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 06, 2011, 02:39:04 PM
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/50/Tyrion_203.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120221232613)

I suppose it's about time we start talking about this one, as it seems like it's going to be around for a while. I know very little about the source material, but from what I've heard it seems to be sticking rather close to it. Sean Bean doing his long haired LOTR thing is nice, but it's Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister who steals the show. So far I think it's doing a remarkable job of juggling a large cast and multiple storylines, and those opening credits are fantastic at establishing what is happening where. It's far from perfect but I'm enjoying it unashamedly. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: socketlevel on June 06, 2011, 02:54:38 PM
I find it all so boring.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 06, 2011, 03:30:14 PM
the little I read about it didn't find interesting before it started, still i gave it a chance and was hooked since the 1st episode, it's very well made and to be honest the whole production of the series has surprised me, not that HBO doesn't invest in that but all the castles and locations look very real (some may be of course). this looks and feels better than many movies actually.

and I'm with you about Peter Dinklage's character, he's been great from the start.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on June 06, 2011, 04:56:05 PM
I have no interest in reading the books whatsoever, but this show is fantastic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 15, 2011, 04:42:17 PM
spoiler function doesn't work for me so...

SPOILERS FOR EP. 9

what an episode, just last week was talking with a friend and told her HBO already greenlit 2nd season, so that meant there was no way they would kill ned stark (haven't read the books), it was only a matter of time to see how he would get out of that one and....BOOM, he's gone, I couldn't fucking believe it.

I have a feeling they will leave us wit a huge cliff hanger, damn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on June 15, 2011, 05:54:28 PM
Spoilers


I unfortunately had the bit spoiled for me a few weeks ago, but I had no idea it happened in such an awful fashion, with him selling out his honor to save his daughters.  What a horrible way to die. It's not looking good for Khal Drogo either.

I'm glad to be this into an HBO drama again. I was kind of forcing it with Boardwalk Empire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: cronopio 2 on June 17, 2011, 03:23:54 AM
SPOILERS:


I THOUGHT A DRAGON was going to come out of blondie's vagina and save all of the starks.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 21, 2011, 11:12:23 PM
best new show without a doubt. therefore the best thing HBO has made in years (along with treme).

if ppl havent seen it I urge them to do so.


spoils

this show is not afraid to get rid of characters as we saw on ep. 9. now in this finale khal drogo is done for good too. i dont know the books so to me that was a huge surprised (im referring mainly to ned starks fate).


its going to be a long wait for next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on October 12, 2011, 04:55:31 AM
I just finished this season and what a fantastic show. Its like an NC-17 rated Lord of the Rings. Every single episode was fantastic save the last one, and i only say that cause i don't want to have to wait half a year to see what comes next. I urge everyone to see this.


Between this, BB Season 4, The end of Friday Night Lights, Louie Season 2, and Curb Season 8 this has just been a fantastic year for television, and we didn't even need Mad Men. Wish i could say the same for film, but i guess i haven't seen too much.


Spoilers:
 I did NOT expect Stark to be offed like that, such a miserable way to go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: O. on October 12, 2011, 09:01:14 AM
Spoilers:
 I did NOT expect Stark to be offed like that, such a miserable way to go.

GRRM kills off his characters religiously without the battering of an eyelash.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: modage on March 24, 2012, 10:44:39 AM
Season 2 starts April 1.

22 minute recap vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dku_Uya8Ygc

I may have already seen the first two eps.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 24, 2012, 11:32:02 AM
I finished watching Season 1 a week or so ago and liked it a lot, so I'm really looking forward to Season 2.

My only complaint really is how cartoonishly dislikable Viserys Targaryen was. (He's the blonde dragon prince guy who liked to bully his sister.)

I haven't read the books, but the show is quite powerful. [Season 1 spoilers] Ned Stark's story was so heartbreaking, I'm still trying to forget it. Even worse is everything that's happening to Sansa. At the end of the season, in fact, Sansa and Tyrion are my favorite characters. Sansa's predicament haunted me so much that I had to spoil myself a bit and look up her entire story as it happens in the books. [Season 2 and book spoilers!] I'm really glad I did, because I don't think I'd be able to endure what happens to her in Season 2 without knowing the eventual (merciful) outcome. Her arc is really epic, too, especially that last bit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on March 24, 2012, 01:04:55 PM
This is a wonderful series. After the first season ended, I couldn't help myself and purchased all the books. I'm now on the most recently published fifth novel, A Dance with Dragons. I don't care much for fantasy fiction, but this surpasses all expectations. It really is one of the best series I've had the pleasure of experiencing. And it all gets much much worse for everyone involved (especially for those you care for). Martin is merciless, and I can only hope that the show will be equally vicious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 24, 2012, 01:12:25 PM
Martin is merciless, and I can only hope that the show will be equally vicious.

I just worry that it will get a bit sadistic.

This gets to what I was talking about at the end of my previous post. Given the slow pace of book 2, it looks like this is going to be a rough season, with no relief in sight until 1 or 2 seasons later. I don't know how much plot is resolved by the end of book 2, but that's what it looks like.

If it keeps happening, won't you eventually stop caring about your favorite characters, because you know they're probably screwed? I'm all for breaking expectations and being merciless to characters, but this could be a bit much. It almost reaches that point for me in Season 1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on March 24, 2012, 03:06:46 PM
Bad shit happens to good people, but it never becomes unbearable, it is also never hopeless. It's tragic, for sure; heartbreaking, even. Martin is so skilled that this actually becomes a strength for the story, as it keeps you guessing, and rooting for the characters you love knowing that death may literally be right around a darkened corner. But, as one door closes, another opens.
This is the exact opposite of The Walking Dead, and a direction that series should take, to be honest. There is a real sense of danger and doom.
The characters are in a constant state of development, including those you hate by the end of the first book/season.
Stick with it, JB, I encourage you; though it gets bad, it is always good (and justice will be served).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 24, 2012, 03:40:26 PM
Bad shit happens to good people, but it never becomes unbearable, it is also never hopeless. It's tragic, for sure; heartbreaking, even. Martin is so skilled that this actually becomes a strength for the story, as it keeps you guessing, and rooting for the characters you love knowing that death may literally be right around a darkened corner. But, as one door closes, another opens.
This is the exact opposite of The Walking Dead, and a direction that series should take, to be honest. There is a real sense of danger and doom.
The characters are in a constant state of development, including those you hate by the end of the first book/season.
Stick with it, JB, I encourage you; though it gets bad, it is always good (and justice will be served).

Thanks for that. I haven't read any spoilers that suggest the plot is outright sadistic, but it goes right up to that line, so I was worried.

[More book and Season 2 etc. spoilers] Sansa's story (over all the books) is exactly what you're talking about. It almost gets unbearable, but she escapes those situations before those horrible things happen. The thing with her dad was enough, and then she's stuck in this abusive situation with Joffrey, and it looks like he's just going to rip apart her soul... it's just... ugh. (This is why I had to look up her spoilers.) At the same time, there's really some beautiful complexity there, which is happening with Tyrion too. He's part of this horrible, evil family, and he fights on their behalf (particularly in Season 2), and yet he's a good person, a completely likable character, who apparently delivers on his virtues when dealing with the Sansa situation. I can't wait to see how all of that unfolds. Slowly, I gather...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pozer on March 24, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
just finished season one. i cant remember the last tv show that put me through so much love&hate for its characters.......so gutpunched in the end.

has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on March 24, 2012, 06:38:08 PM
has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.

Please qualify this remark by indicating if you have seen the wire.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pozer on March 25, 2012, 12:20:01 PM
has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.

Please qualify this remark by indicating if you have seen the wire.

like half of season one only. got the rest in thee ol netflix queue, other stuff kept getting in the way for some reason.

were you one of the wire nuts? have you watched GOT? i'm a sucker for the renaissances partially why this show GOT me good.

SPOILERISH THINGS
author dude really likes to kill off his darlings ay // dont think i ever hated a child character more than that incestuous spawned piece of filth, i went into a mild depression after episode nine //  i think the blacksmith bastard boy and jon snow are bros.  
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on March 25, 2012, 02:50:41 PM

I am more excited for season 2 of GOT than I am for the return of Mad Men tonight. I was the biggest Med Men fan but it's been so long since it's been on. I'm not even watching it tonight cause I'm gonna have to rewatch the entire series before I can watch season five.



has potential to become the greatest show that ever lived.

Please qualify this remark by indicating if you have seen the wire.

GOT actually reminds me a lot of the wire. The Wire is about the least episodic show that has ever been on television. It played out more like a novel than a television show.  You can't watch one episode or half a season and really get how great The Wire is or was.  You had to watch the entire season and see the entire plot line play out. GOT is very similar. You also have a large cast. The arrival of new cast and plot lines. The exit of beloved cast and plot lines.  The never ending plot.  Plus the shows aren't about a specific character or a group of characters.  Ultimately each show is about the game.  The Game and The game of Thrones. It's like the wire meets lord of the rings.

Last year, I ended up watching the entire series over fourth of july weekend. It was too hot to go outside so I stayed in, grilled hamburgers, drank cold beer and watched all of GOT.  Think I'm going to do that again. Spend an entire weekend rewatching and watching GOT season 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on March 29, 2012, 02:08:35 PM
Wow I didn't realize GOT was starting this Sunday. I've been singing this song to myself cause I'm so excited. Beware if you watch the video you will not be able to help thinking of this every time you see the GOT opening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCBO6TNzfV0


I find myself in the same situation with GOT as I am with The Walking Dead. I want to read the books but enjoying the show too much. From what I've heard, GOT is sticking closely to the books while The Walking Dead has gone a different path from the books. I'm still reluctant to read either one. The writing is so much better for television than film today I hope more beloved books are produced for tv over movies. Let Hollywood keep remaking old movies and tv shows. I just think the source material wouldn't translate as well to a film. The sopranos was originally intended to be a movie.  It probably would have ended up as a forgettable movie too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on April 05, 2012, 07:49:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUGzIfDRrLs
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 13, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
great episode tonight, all season has been great. the hour goes by like it was 10 minutes.

spoils for S02E07

and that ending, are those burn corpses the starks or not? my feeling is that they are not, those wolves wouldn't allow it, but in this show no-one is safe, so as someone that hasnt read the books im clueless. I hope they are alive.


cant fucking wait for next week.

if someone chimes in, please no book spoilers, or give the warning and hide them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2012, 01:07:39 AM
To your question, I'm 90% sure the answer is no.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 14, 2012, 09:08:24 AM
I think Bran mentioned that two orphans were living there.  Plus, they wouldn't have sent the Maester away if they were really going to kill Bran and Rickon, since they showed him the burned corpses anyway later. They just didn't want him wise to the ruse.

Still seriously fucked up though, the look on Theon's face at the end says it all.  He's in way over his head.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 14, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
that 10% is what im worried, so I agree with you both, those cant be the stark kids, cant imagine they'd be gone just like that.

what keeps getting better this season is the dynamic between Arya and Tywin, both actors doing terrific work and getting the best parts of the script (Tyrion always has that too). I could see them talking for the whole hour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 14, 2012, 04:20:58 PM
My favorite part of last night's episode was actually the developments in Qarth. Love the warlock guy... probably the scariest character in the series so far.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 AM
haha yeah that warlock guy is like Robert Blake times a million. with a bit of Dean Pelton thrown in for camp value.

so i'm now caught up to the latest episode. let's talk shit! this thread should be up to 100 pages by now.. i can only assume everyone is waiting for the whole series to end before watching any of it. such a shame but i can understand. i know a couple of people who had to stop themselves after watching the first episode because they didn't think they could bear the weekly torture. i did the same with the wire (the Qarth of shows, the best that ever was and ever will be) and it was the best decision ever.

on the subject of masterpieces, pozer's claim that this has the potential to be the greatest show that ever lived.. i concur! the production value alone places it above anything i've ever seen on tv. the locations are just incredible, they feel completely authentic even though they are impossible.. i don't want this show to end because then the world they are creating will cease growing.

i also want to voice my disapproval of book discussion in this thread. fuck the books, i wouldn't even have heard of them if it wasn't for the show.. there is no way they could have created the immediacy or emotional involvement i'm getting from all the amazing performances.. well, apart from lena headey, who must be the only bad actress in the whole cast. lucky her role doesn't require much from her but to raise her eye brow incessantly, my contempt for her brow is possibly matched only by pozers contempt for her incestuous spawned cretin.

so fuck the books. i pledge my fealty to rightful king-title of George RR Martin, Executive Producer, and the protectors of the realm, lords David Benioff and DB Weiss of house HBO. may the vile scripture that gave birth to this magnificent piece of entertainment never hinder or spoil the legacy of the one true popular art form.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 15, 2012, 02:02:24 PM
welcome to the club!

yes, this should have the traffic that once had Lost or right now Girls.

the production value alone places it above anything i've ever seen on tv. the locations are just incredible, they feel completely authentic even though they are impossible.. i don't want this show to end because then the world they are creating will cease growing.

check this out:

it reminded me of Fincher's fx in Zodiac.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKOw3zdzy0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXCveVO1_rE


i pledge my fealty to rightful king-title of George RR Martin, Executive Producer, and the protectors of the realm, lords David Benioff and DB Weiss of house HBO. may the vile scripture that gave birth to this magnificent piece of entertainment never hinder or spoil the legacy of the one true popular art form.

im twitting them that!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: RegularKarate on May 16, 2012, 11:20:26 AM
I got a good deal on the blu for season one, ripped straight through it and caught up with season 2.
This is some amazing stuff.  Lots of "holy shit" moments.

The effects are so good that I don't really pay attention until something is a little TOO CG (But really, that doesn't happen too often).  I get a little worried about the future of the show, but that just comes along with a good show.

Now that I've caught up, it's killing me to wait.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on May 17, 2012, 05:12:10 PM
Yeah, i'm on board (have been for a minute), this show is the greatest on tv right now for sure.

Those stark boys are most definitely NOT dead. but that last scene was chilling.

This season has been all about violence against children...all the baby killin from ep 1, the white-walker baby-eatin' from ep 2 and now the mutilated kiddy corpses. This show pulls no punches and i half expect every episode to raise the bar (like i really assumed we'd see a full frontal bloody mess of what Goffrey did to those whores but that didn't happen).

The worst CGI in the show was EP1 when that dire wolf was all up in the captive lannister's face. that looked totally whack.

What i imagine will be the most difficult CGI and the thing i'm looking forward to the most?

Mother. Fucking. Dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2012, 11:24:22 AM
spoilers S02E08


they're alive! I know they had to right? but through out the episode I feared again, until I saw Osha.

I loved that ending, seeing Bran awake hearing the whole conversation with Hodor and his brother in the background, it was a sad and beautiful image (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/fbv/Bran.png).


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 28, 2012, 08:28:23 PM
spoilers

what an episode last night, great great stuff.

first, theres no way they can cover the whole story lines in 50+ minutes, asked about it and apparently the episode will be 64 minutes. the opening credits are 1:50, end credits around 90 secs, that would be 60 actual minutes of the show, like ten more minutes than usual.

Tyrion is the man, he's hurt but he'll live im guessing. I thought the guy from the king's guard that hit him was joffrey's personal guard (the one that slapped sansa) but apparently it was not him. so maybe cersei ordered that? anyway, after the hound ran away and fucking joffrey cowardly ran after his mother request, tyrion is stronger than ever (if he's not that hurt), at least the soldiers are rooting for him, and his plan with the wildfire worked like a charm.

speaking of the hound, itll be great for next season to see his adventures along sansa...again if in the next episode they are not caught and killed.

poor stubborn stannis, now he wishes he had the red witch by his side, I wonder if she or the smoke devil will show up.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 28, 2012, 09:49:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Sansa turned down The Hound's offer, so she's staying in King's Landing.  With Loras showing up at the end, it looks like Margery might the one to marry Joffrey, which is bad news for Sansa. 

I loved how they focused on one storyline this episode. For all the complaining people do about the lack of battle scenes, it seems like the show needed to do that to get everyone to shut the hell up.  Neil Marshall excels at splitting bodies in half.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 01:33:36 AM
spoilers

Good episode indeed. Loved the big green asplosion. Tywin's dramatic entrance very much worked for me. So weird to be cheering for the Lannisters, but as we know by now, that ambiguity and constant "who am I cheering for?" tension is part of what makes the story great. So much like Breaking Bad Season 4.

With Loras showing up at the end, it looks like Margery might the one to marry Joffrey, which is bad news for Sansa.

Or is it?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 29, 2012, 05:19:22 PM
I think it would be bad for her.  If she's not Queen, and Jaime shows up released, they have no reason to keep her alive. It's not like she can go back to Winterfell, but she certainly shouldn't stay in King's Landing. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
I think it would be bad for her.  If she's not Queen, and Jaime shows up released, they have no reason to keep her alive. It's not like she can go back to Winterfell, but she certainly shouldn't stay in King's Landing.

Well, think of it this way. Cersei and friends don't view her as a threat, really. They see her as a naive, weak, subjugated girl. Joffrey might have her killed, but Tyrion wouldn't stand for it, nor would Tywin, or even Cersei for that matter. And Joffrey's position seems weakened at this point. Sansa could stay in King's Landing and be trapped in some courtly role. I imagine they'd get some satisfaction continuing to keep her trapped. We don't know when or if Jaime will arrive at King's Landing, so for the time being Sansa is still a bargaining chip with Robb, in addition to all the other stuff.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 29, 2012, 10:19:14 PM
Haha, a cunning stratagem, Jeremy b.

This show needs more than ten episodes a season, I don't want to read the books but I just can't believe they're adapting a whole book per season. They must be cutting massive chunks out. Without spoiling can someone confirm this either way? If there is nothing major left unadapted from each book in its respective season, then I might be tempted to give the first two a read after the next episode.

Here's something else i don't get: it doesn't matter anymore since she has run away, but why did tywin seem cool with his little helper girl Arya being such a liar about everything she pretended to be? Finding out she's a girl I can understand he saw she was just trying to survive, it impressed the old perv or whatever, but then he cottons on to the fact she's not some blacksmiths daughter but a noble lady.. and he doesn't give a shit? Shouldn't he at least be curious about who her parents are/were?

Same goes for cersei noticing shae in this last episode, but at least she was drunk and in the middle of a siege and suffering yet another prolonged stroke going by the severity of her brow-overacting.

Fave characters season 1
Eddard "Ned" Stark
Daenerys "khaleesi" Targaryen

Fave characters season 2
Tyrion "half man" Lannister
Arya "dickensian street urchin" Stark

Fave characters season 3
Omar
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 10:45:18 PM
This show needs more than ten episodes a season, I don't want to read the books but I just can't believe they're adapting a whole book per season. They must be cutting massive chunks out. Without spoiling can someone confirm this either way? If there is nothing major left unadapted from each book in its respective season, then I might be tempted to give the first two a read after the next episode.

I agree, 12 episodes minimum.

From what I've heard, yes, lots is skipped (though much of it is backstory and tangents). But the way they try to do it is combine and simplify, rather than omit. This last episode is a prime example of that, and written by GRRM himself... apparently he just picked the highlights of the Stannis siege and made it much shorter/simpler.

Here's something else i don't get: it doesn't matter anymore since she has run away, but why did tywin seem cool with his little helper girl Arya being such a liar about everything she pretended to be? Finding out she's a girl I can understand he saw she was just trying to survive, it impressed the old perv or whatever, but then he cottons on to the fact she's not some blacksmiths daughter but a noble lady.. and he doesn't give a shit? Shouldn't he at least be curious about who her parents are/were?

He picked her out of a prison population, so perhaps he expects some shadiness, but ultimately sees her as harmless, maybe colored by the fact that she amuses him. It would be a stretch for him to believe she's a Stark.

Same goes for cersei noticing shae in this last episode, but at least she was drunk and in the middle of a siege and suffering yet another prolonged stroke going by the severity of her brow-overacting.

There might be some follow-up on that, assuming Cersei remembers. Hopefully Shae realizes she should get out of King's Landing now. It would be a Shaem if something happened to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 29, 2012, 10:53:31 PM
I think the 10 episodes is due to budgetary constraints.  If they stretched the story out, the production quality would suffer. I heard they had to beg HBO for extra money to pull this last episode off. 

I don't think Sansa is safe at all. She summed it up perfectly: "The worst ones always live".  She not only has to worry about the Lannisters now, but the Tyrells as well. Margaery gives off a seriously evil vibe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 29, 2012, 10:56:38 PM
Well, yeah, I guess "safe" would be an exaggeration. I just don't think she's getting killed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on May 30, 2012, 08:25:54 PM
I would say 70 to 80% of each episode deviates from the source material, either through omission or fabrication (the Robb and Daenerys storylines, especially; Season One was more faithful). Some of this could be said to be "minor," but much of it sacrifices the authenticity of the story/world, and changes the characters quite significantly. In some cases, they seem to be writing themselves into a trap, if they still intend to go the same direction as the novels.
That said, I still enjoy the show, and forgive some of its transgressions, but others I have a hard time wrapping my head around.
While I agree that more episodes would be better, if they would change the layout it might improve the quality without upping the budget. Instead of attempting to develop every character every episode, why not focus on half of them, and alternate those groups? You could get more development in for each character each episode, and rid yourself of those 5 minute "scenes" where very little seems to happen. The  last episode is a great example of what I'm talking about. Can you imagine it working any other way had they checked back in with Jon or Daenerys just to say "hey"?

Also, Book 3 will be split into Season 3 and Season 4, which is a great decision. It's definitely the most important to keep intact, and the most heartbreaking.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 30, 2012, 08:31:51 PM
Wow, well, that certainly sounds like a lot of deviation. Does this have GRRM's blessing or involvement?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on May 30, 2012, 08:34:46 PM
He is supposed to have full script approval, which puzzles me even more. Sometimes I just don't think he reads closely enough......
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 03, 2012, 07:42:01 AM
Fave characters season 3
Omar

I can't wait to see him in a scene with Arya holding her own
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on June 03, 2012, 11:14:28 PM
Holy crap white walkers....



When does season 3 start? Next week right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:09:25 AM
Meh, zombies are zombies. We'll see what happens. My favorite part of the finale was actually Daenerys's section. With Theon's comeuppance a close second. (Though I don't understand where the Stark troops went or how they could have allowed Winterfell to be burned.)

And Joffrey's position seems weakened at this point.

I was certainly wrong about that. I also thought Tyrion would be celebrated or at least recognized for his, you know, saving the city. I guess I overestimated the visibility of his role or something. I mean really, couldn't a whole bunch of people see that he was giving the orders, and that Joffrey was running away? I don't understand how all of that could have been whitewashed.

Also, why did Joffrey have to name Tywin hand of the king? That was already done. Tyrion was subbing for him. Did they need to do it in person?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on June 04, 2012, 12:27:33 AM
vague spoilers

Well i'm a total jackass and i just read the wikipedia entry for book 3, which will be seasons 3 & 4, and i'm convinced that George RR Martin has absolutely no soul.

But even knowing, I am anxious as hell to see all of those plotlines come to life.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 04, 2012, 12:41:14 AM
moderate, mostly vague Sansa spoilers (book spoilers)

...

After Season 1, I couldn't help myself and read Sansa's entire plotline. It's epic, satisfying, and she appears to get much more interesting. She could easily end up being one of the best characters of the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 04, 2012, 10:50:53 PM
My favorite part of the finale was actually Daenerys's section.

mine too, when she entered that tower thought they would leave us with that huge cliffhanger, im glad we got closure with her story, good that she went from whining and demanding to take action by herself.

now that the 13 are death or trapped, wouldnt be logical to take the reigns of qarth?


With Theon's comeuppance a close second. (Though I don't understand where the Stark troops went or how they could have allowed Winterfell to be burned.)

I dont get that too, they were surrounded and outnumbered, doesnt make much sense to see everything burn and do nothing.


And Joffrey's position seems weakened at this point.

I was certainly wrong about that. I also thought Tyrion would be celebrated or at least recognized for his, you know, saving the city. I guess I overestimated the visibility of his role or something. I mean really, couldn't a whole bunch of people see that he was giving the ordersnot even his, and that Joffrey was running away? I don't understand how all of that could have been whitewashed.

Also, why did Joffrey have to name Tywin hand of the king? That was already done. Tyrion was subbing for him. Did they need to do it in person?

not even his dad gave him credit, thought at least that would happen in some way or another. I hope tyrion isnt relegated from the spotlight next season...or killed.

I think Joffrey gave his grandfather his due because of cersei and to make it official, since his naming was done in his absence.


my other fave part was as usual Arya, even if it was very short. Id love to see her faceless, can you imagine? but she has to meet his mom and brother. btw, isnt too dangerous for them to travel alone? they are too exposed and unarmed (i think)

damn, its going to be a long ass wait for S3.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: RegularKarate on June 07, 2012, 10:10:28 AM
I love this show, but Season 2 finale was kinda boring compared to the last handful of Season 1 episodes.
After the siege, there wasn't too much to get me excited, it felt like tying up (mostly) obvious loose ends.  It felt like the same beats from the end of the first season played out again, but this time less incredible because we already saw it all happen and this time around it feels less important.

Still love the show and will probably be forced to read these dumb books between seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on February 23, 2013, 12:29:07 PM
Season 3 Trailer.

for the purists (JB), it isnt spoilerful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzI9v_B4sxw
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on February 23, 2013, 01:35:32 PM
That's definitely a bit spoilery.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on February 23, 2013, 01:53:19 PM
really? other than they are at each others throats I didnt think it was....what part you felt spoilery?


I probably wont see any more promos thou
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on February 23, 2013, 03:54:17 PM
If you subscribe to the creeping expansionary definition of spoilers that's taken hold over the last few years, then sure, it's spoilery. Then again, if you subscribe to that definition, why are you watching any promos in the first place?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on February 23, 2013, 09:19:36 PM
Hey, I said "a bit spoilery," which is clearly a couple steps down from "spoilerful." It's not egregious, and I'm not especially traumatized.

Nonetheless, if you really want to know, I felt the clip of Daenerys at 0:25 revealed a significant plot development that I would have liked to actually see develop first. It was not even clear when or to what extent that would happen.

0:45 is a spoiler... though I'm not really invested in that storyline.

The Daenerys spoilage after that is slightly annoying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 01, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
Well that was fuckin awesome. Can't wait for next week. Waiting sucks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 02, 2013, 12:49:57 PM
yes it sucks squirts, yes it sucks  :yabbse-smiley:

I know it was a given but still good to hear...

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/fbv/GoT4_zpscf27806a.jpg)


I have read that this season only covers the first half of the 3rd book, but haven't read it from the producers, anyone knows if that is true?


I hope we see Arya next week, I need my Arya fix :), btw I NEVER watch the teaser of next week's episodes, so if she showed up on that I don't want to know....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MacGuffin on April 02, 2013, 03:41:29 PM
I have read that this season only covers the first half of the 3rd book, but haven't read it from the producers, anyone knows if that is true?


Any particular challenges?

Benioff: We always talked about doing the third book in two seasons, but it’s not quite that neat. There’s not a halfway point in the book where all the story lines break. We’re drawing things in from other books and [adding] other plot lines that were implied by the books but not shown. It’s trickier in that sense. We could easily write a show about just, say, Bronn [Jerome Flynn]. The Bronn Show.

Sellsword.

Benioff: Good title. We could do a great half-hour comedy with Sam [John Bradley] and Gilly [Hannah Murray]. It’s an embarrassment of riches. There’s so many great characters and you want to spend more time with them. George always wanted more hours per season. And it would be great, but we just can’t. It was getting to the point where we were turning in VFX shots on “Blackwater” [last season] a week before airing. It was getting to the point where Quality Control in New York for HBO had to get the tapes couriered with 20 minutes to spare. There’s no possible way for us to do an extra hour.

Weiss: The episodes will be longer though, slightly. We’re getting a few more minutes into each episode.

Benioff: I don’t know how Vince Gilligan manages to get every episode of Breaking Bad in at 47 minutes and 16 seconds. You never feel on Breaking Bad “oh they stretched that out” or “they trimmed it.” It all feels perfectly organic.




http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/03/29/game-of-thrones-best-season-yet/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on April 02, 2013, 08:10:32 PM
I love how Vince Gilligan is a deity among show runners. Totally deserved.

Solid premiere, Dany had more to do in this episode than the entirety of Season 2, dragon CGI was looking a bit spotty though. That Giant on the other hand looked fantastic, i'm guessing that was forced perspective. Jon Snow still looks constipated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on April 03, 2013, 10:12:27 AM
I love how Vince Gilligan is a deity among show runners. Totally deserved.

Solid premiere, Dany had more to do in this episode than the entirety of Season 2, dragon CGI was looking a bit spotty though. That Giant on the other hand looked fantastic, i'm guessing that was forced perspective. Jon Snow still looks constipated.

agreed on every point. especially how cool it is when other great shows praise breaking bad for setting the standard.

it's true the dragon looked like shit compared to that awesome giant, what the hell? i actually thought it was a weak episode. it was all a slow rebound from the events of the last season.. like someone getting knocked down to the ground and this episode being about them slowly getting back up. and even then they didn't even fully stand.

they can't afford to waste episodes like that. there was little momentum.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: ©brad on April 03, 2013, 10:17:01 AM
On a somewhat related note, Breaking Bad's best director Michelle MacLaren directed two of this season's GoT episodes. I remember on the nerdist podcast Vince and the writers were talking about how excited they were. I guess the admiration is mutual.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 07, 2013, 11:10:00 PM
E2 spoilers...

So Joffrey is a closeted self-hating homosexual, right? I'm dead serious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 08, 2013, 12:04:43 AM
spoils

ha! you're probably right, joffrey could be the ralph cifaretto of GoT, a little perverted creep who can get off only by pain.


I wonder if what Sansa said will bite her back in a really bad way.....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 08, 2013, 12:33:59 AM
I wonder if what Sansa said will bite her back in a really bad way.....

I doubt it. The writers seemed to go out of their way to make that apparent. I don't think Margaery would gain anything by betraying Sansa. Plus, Sansa has done her a massive favor. She seemed absolutely delighted to get that information, because now she knows how to play her game. She's obviously operating at a higher level than most of those around her.

But yeah, overall, I don't think Sansa is seen as a threat by anyone. For that reason, and because she doesn't have much power, she doesn't seem to be in much danger.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 09, 2013, 01:29:32 AM
SPOILER?

This moment was pretty awesome/sad


(http://i.imgur.com/exJI7Bs.jpg)


Also, this bitch is triflin'
from season 2 to renley, season 3 to joffrey

http://i.imgur.com/pPM5J2W.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/pPM5J2W.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 15, 2013, 07:54:18 PM
well, shit just got real, and Im guessing Jaime will never make it back to Kingslanding in 'one' piece...


is dany really selling one of her dragons? I think that when she's sailing safe with her army, that dragon will burn that mouthy bald guy for good and return to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2013, 08:22:47 PM
is dany really selling one of her dragons? I think that when she's sailing safe with her army, that dragon will burn that mouthy bald guy for good and return to her.

That was also my thought. There are so many reasons. (1) He's already been thoroughly set up to be deserving of comeuppance. (2) Letting that deal stand would make Daenerys seem like a fool to the point that it would permanently damage her character, and I don't think GRRM is interested in that. (3) If she can get all of her dragons out of the House of the Undying, she should certainly be able to free one of them from some non-magical creep who suddenly has no soldiers. Also, he has no idea how powerful she is, and that she birthed said dragons in fire. They're almost shoving down our throats the extent to which he's underestimating her, calling her a whore etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on April 15, 2013, 10:19:50 PM
It doesn't seem like Dragons are something you can just "hand over" to someone. They're pretty devoted to Dany, and I don't think any transaction would change that. I loved that they had the balls to off Jaime's hand. Between him and Merle on the Walking Dead, one handed anti-heroes are so hot right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 21, 2013, 11:11:14 PM
daaaamn good episode.

specially dany's. I knew it! he burned that mouthy bastard and I swear I knew she could understand everything....

what else happened....oh yes, the young crows rebelled and went mad, poor Jeor Mormont a true crow till the end.


also, I actually feel sorry for Jaime all banged up and depressed, until that great intervention Brienne did, that storyline is becoming one of the best.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 22, 2013, 12:01:44 AM
Wow. Just wow. I had to watch the last 8 minutes again immediately. I was absolutely consumed with giddiness.

That was the most moving sequence of the series since Ned Stark's death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on April 22, 2013, 04:16:46 AM
That was the most moving sequence of the series since Ned Stark's death.

YES. i also loved the crow implosion. and theon greyjoy's betrayal though i have NO idea what is going on with his storyline, i still enjoyed the switcheroo, it set the tone for the two other switcheroos in the episode, of which Kaleesi's was the greatest, best of the series maybe.

we need a template for talking about this show on an episode by episode basis, it's too epic, something like:

Most Satisfying Switcheroo/Payoff
kaleesi! i finally know who to worship unconditionally.

Intriguing Developments
the ongoing manipulation of Sansa, does she realise she is always being played?

WTF/Who Is That
dude with the eyepatch

I Have Completely Lost Track Of ____ Storyline
what the fuck is going on with Theon Greyjoy. i feel like nothing happened to him in the last couple of episodes, he's just back where he started. i was certain they were gonna kill him when they re-captured him in the forest, and i would have been fine with that.

CRUCIAL REMINDER: DO NOT USE INFO FROM THE BOOKS TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS HAPPENING. PLEASE CONTINUE TO ONLY SUPPORT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF A STORY/CHARACTER'S MOTIVATIONS BASED ON THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE SHOW ITSELF.  If there is any mention of the books alternate/future developments your post will be deleted and you may be banned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 22, 2013, 10:53:48 AM
a thousend  :yabbse-thumbup: on the banned if someone spoils and the template idea...

bold prediction
Pod has a two headed dick  :yabbse-tongue:  seriously, is that going anywhere? actually Tyrion hasnt done much this season (so far).


If there is any mention of the books alternate/future developments your post will be deleted and you may be banned.

is it ok to talk a little about the first book? if not feel free to delete the below text.

I'm finishing the first book, if you care to know the difference read the white text about Ned's death, of not DONT!

the sequence of Ned's beheading in the book is good and all but what they did on the series is far superior, e.g. Ned and Arya never saw each other, therefore he never talked to Joren (the crow) who took (save) her, OTOH Joffrey's ''bring me his head!'' was exactly like the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 23, 2013, 11:14:13 AM
The mother of fucking god damned fucking dragons.

That was so epic. That singular 8 minute sequence was better than all of season 2.

Another part i dug from this last ep was Varys (Whisperin' eunuch) and his backstory with the sorcerer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on April 24, 2013, 11:54:14 PM
Another part i dug from this last ep was Varys (Whisperin' eunuch) and his backstory with the sorcerer.

"Whisperin' Eunech" sounds like a bar I'd like to visit
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 29, 2013, 12:51:00 AM
I've always thought Sansa was one of the best characters, so it's interesting to see how everything in King's Landing is sort of swirling around her, given that she is "the key to the North." (Will that become a thing?) King's Landing's sharpest players are in this particular game, and it's going to be fascinating to see who ultimately prevails. Of course it would be best if Sansa exercised some agency in the process, to realize some of her character's potential... we'll see if and how that happens.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 29, 2013, 11:38:30 PM
Sansa is one of the best for sure, I wonder when she hears about marrying Tyrion if she'll want to flee with little finger, which obviously would be worse than being paired with the imp, at least he isn't gay (loras) or creepy (lord twat beard)....there are so many outcomes for this part of the story that I really don't have a clue what will happen....

oh, Cersei's face when Tywin told her she would marry too was priceless, first she was forced to marry a drunk womanizer now a gay lord...haha I guess she deserves it...

Brienne and Jaime's buddy cop story is pretty great, this damn show gives you so many mixed feelings, right now I feel bad for poor Jaime but then I remember how the prick pushed Bran out and how he ambushed Ned and his men, still, cant help feeling a little empathy for the man.

mean while at Stark camp....I think that beheading Rob did will curse him, and now he wants to go begging for an army to Walter Fray? he must have something under his sleeve otherwise I cant see Frey helping him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 06, 2013, 06:13:14 PM
SPOILERS S03E06

another good one.

showdown of the week
Tywin vs Lady Olenna. well clearly Tywin holds all the cards now, he apparently will get away with those weddings.

sibling bonding
after all Cersei didn't order Tyrion's death...I was sure she did, perhaps it makes more sense that Jeffrey did it, anyway, that was a great scene, I love that you can see the human side of ppl you are supposed to hate and Cersei was for once not playing games with Tyrion.

showdown of the week 2
Varys vs Little finger. what a pair make this little finger with Joffrey, fucking sadists cunts. poor Ros :( played the most dangerous game and lost horribly. ''Chaos is a ladder'' I wonder if Varys learned from this defeat and what he will do...

other good stuff happened, Arya and the red witch, Jaime and Ser Bolton.


this phrase worries me....if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention...


and the next two are directed by Michelle MacLaren those should be sweet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on May 06, 2013, 06:41:48 PM


this phrase worries me....if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention...


Seriously, stick with the idea that GRRM does NOT like seeing people happy.


Watching theon get tortured (AGAIN) had me cringing all day thinking about his finger. God damn that was gross.

I've read a storm of swords by now, and while i know what is going to happen, I am still intrigued as hell to see how it all plays out here. I'm holding out on the next book, just waiting for this and next season to be done so i can go into season 5 completely blind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2013, 08:51:40 PM
''Chaos is a ladder'' I wonder if Varys learned from this defeat and what he will do...

And yet he sort of won that battle for now, right? Varys was trying to deny him Sansa ("the key to the North"), and he did.

I feel comfortable liking Varys now. People like Littlefinger need to be kept in check. The "chaos is a ladder" line was totally chilling, probably one of the best lines so far. I like that it was saved until now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 09, 2013, 03:17:01 PM
SPOILERSOBVZ
-
-
-
i love gore but that finger shit made me and everyone i know freak out a little.
best things:
- i'm glad they're saving more khalisi stuff for michelles episode. she is consistently the most satsifying part of the show, i think because her moments are so sparse and sporadic that they dont get old. for instance the dragons havent gotten too incredible yet which is a very good thing.

- gradual increase of tyrion time is good. but whats happening with crazy virgin guy?
- opening scene was nice, that shot framed by the trees jesus.
- the wall climb was verging on mindless action similar to the firesword fight in last ep, but i loved the resolution at the end. the shows visuals will never cease to mesmerize me.
- how hilarious was jamie eating the meat one handed? i almost peed. but what are they gonna do with brienne who was looking surprisingly sexy in woman clothes.
- and yeah theons story is now confusing in a funny way because they straight up referenced it with 'this is why! no its not why!'
- it took me a minute to realise who the chick shot up with arrows was. i can only keep up with so many characters. but my god that shot was amazing, especially with littlefingers amazing monologue in the voice of darkknight batman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 14, 2013, 10:13:50 AM
the latest episode had a few problems so i can see why no one is talking.

spoils for s03 ep7

a bit too much bullshit
the main problem was with the ending. i just don't believe that all these people can be so easily manipulated by Jamie saying a few bullshit words about his dad and the price of his head and whatever else. ugh. it was so overused it felt contrived and frankly it didn't even seem like ANY of the actors really believed the bullshit they were saying in these scenes, jamie included.

they tried to make it interesting by throwing in a random BEAR but it just fell flat. so the whole episode suffered.

it was overall a wasted episode. the whole show is beginning to feel like a tease that goes absolutely nowhere. sometimes someone gets killed, great, but no one ever gets anywhere.  a whole episode to climb a wall, another episode to walk a bit further away from that wall... wow, and here's a windmill. haha.. it sounds ridiculous when you think of it that way, but truth be told that scene with the windmill was actually sorta nice, visually. but nothing compared to the final kiss after they scaled the wall in that previous ep, visually and emotionally. so what happened here added nothing.

that dickhead who will "make kings rise and fall" was shown kings landing. great, GIVE US MORE, his story is actually interesting! meanwhile the little girl was taken by the hound and it didn't even feel that significant even though it was the only truly dangerous incident surrounded by so much BULLSHIT.

bullshit with theon, we get it, he's been tortured. this is the kind of thing i say i never tolerate in other shows that constantly jump the shark, and if i wasn't for the rarity of such a lackluster episode i would be tempted to have to put my money where my mouf is and just stop watching altogether. but i'm hooked and it's good enough to stick with, for now.

nothing in this episode was new, interesting, or even worth showing. what a fucking waste of time and money.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on May 15, 2013, 04:11:22 PM
bullshit with theon, we get it, he's been tortured.

This is the one part I completely agree with. As long as his storyline is "still being tortured," we don't need to check back in with him every week.

I don't mind a slow episode like this every once in a while, though. Not a lot of plot movement, but a lot of character movement. Tyrion faced off with Shae, Dany is cementing her status as hot Lincoln with dragons, we got the goddamn brilliant scene of Grandpa Lannister quietly putting the Little Shit in his place. And damn it, I like following around Jon Snow and Ygritte, even when they don't do anything but marvel at old windmills and make out against rocks. I'm invested enough in all these characters (except the whole Bran roadtrip... DOOOONNNN'T CAAAARRRRRE) that I can deal with an episode or two where they don't technically DO anything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 15, 2013, 04:50:04 PM
spoils for s03 ep7

a bit too much bullshit
the main problem was with the ending. i just don't believe that all these people can be so easily manipulated by Jamie saying a few bullshit words about his dad and the price of his head and whatever else. ugh. it was so overused it felt contrived and frankly it didn't even seem like ANY of the actors really believed the bullshit they were saying in these scenes, jamie included.

they tried to make it interesting by throwing in a random BEAR but it just fell flat. so the whole episode suffered.

I ate up this episode's jaime and brienne story and found it believable, I think he could manipulate ppl easily because they didn't have a choice, what could the guy taking him to king's landing do? he doesn't deliver Jaime lord bolton fucks him up, he does without going back he's a dead man so no other choice than to return to harrenhal. maybe Lock could do whatever he pleases but he already fucked it up by chopping his hand, lord bolton told him when he showed up with Jaime, that's my guess why he lets Jaime leave with her.

so....Jaime FTW.


it was overall a wasted episode. the whole show is beginning to feel like a tease that goes absolutely nowhere. sometimes someone gets killed, great, but no one ever gets anywhere.  a whole episode to climb a wall, another episode to walk a bit further away from that wall... wow, and here's a windmill. haha.. it sounds ridiculous when you think of it that way, but truth be told that scene with the windmill was actually sorta nice, visually. but nothing compared to the final kiss after they scaled the wall in that previous ep, visually and emotionally. so what happened here added nothing.

I kinda agree here, the Jon snow story didn't really move forward, we just learned that some wildling also wants Ygritte and she again told her he was hers..

that dickhead who will "make kings rise and fall" was shown kings landing. great, GIVE US MORE, his story is actually interesting! meanwhile the little girl was taken by the hound and it didn't even feel that significant even though it was the only truly dangerous incident surrounded by so much BULLSHIT.

agree again, something interesting happens every time we see Melisandre yet we see very little about her, now makes sense when she told Stannis that there were others with king's blood, does that mean she will fuck him and create another smoke monster, in fact, did that monster in S2 is useful only once?

also interesting what Melisandre said to Arya last episode, seeing death in her and many eyes she will shut forever...will Arya be a killer?

I hope the hound doesn't hurt her.


bullshit with theon, we get it, he's been tortured. this is the kind of thing i say i never tolerate in other shows that constantly jump the shark, and if i wasn't for the rarity of such a lackluster episode i would be tempted to have to put my money where my mouf is and just stop watching altogether. but i'm hooked and it's good enough to stick with, for now.

yeah, it seems to be going nowhere, it has been well established he's in the hands of a psycho, this better have some big pay off or it will be as you said a waste of time and money.

in the end I really liked the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 16, 2013, 08:36:51 AM
i also liked this episode. as i said in the chat, i think this one suffered from doing something they don't do often: including almost every single character in one episode. it reminded me of the interview on page 4 of this thread where they said they admired breaking bad for doing so much stuff in one timeslot without it feeling rushed or stretched. which is also kind of weird since its mclarens first ep of the season. hm.

SPOILAHZ
-
-
-

- not much to say that hasnt been said.

- bear was random but i liked it. where did it come from though? do they just like have bears on hand? and if so, i hope they use more bears. seems like a good weapon if used properly.

- theons story is just ridiculous at this point and i dont care at all. i think they're nailing the unsettling vibe of torture by torturing us with its relentless boring confusion. i feel like theon: 'oh im gonna get laid/oh somethings going to happen, no theyre cutting off my dick, damn.

- my hope: arya's going to kill the hound and it will be amazing.

- i bought jaimes exit on every level, i dont think it felt off at all and was probaly the best scene of the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2013, 10:56:28 AM
I enjoyed the episode. It wasn't the best ever, but I guess I just like being in the world. Also I usually don't judge the show on an episode-by-episode basis, since it's normally so consistent and congruous, so I have that bias.

The Tywin scene was amazing. (I had been desperately waiting for a scene like that to adequately define that particular dynamic, and good God, it couldn't have been done better.) The Daenerys scene was almost as good. And there was plenty of good teasing of things to come. I guess that was enough for me.

The episode was written by GRRM, interestingly, and I think it reflects his style of storytelling, which is a little more plodding and flowery (and raunchy, apparently) than the show tends to be. I'm okay with an episode like that once in a while.

That said, I think the biggest problems right now are Jaime and Theon. (Obviously I'm not alone.)

Not totally sure what's being accomplished with Theon right now. They're certainly establishing the character of that psychopath, but that's pretty much it. I don't really like Theon, and no amount of torture is going to improve that. That's not what torture does; sympathy is not affection. (Actually I think I do know what they're doing with the Theon business, but it involves a moderate spoiler, so I'll keep quiet.)

While we're on the "sympathy is not affection" topic, note how they've handled Sansa's situation so much better. Obviously we've had sympathy for her since the end of the first season, but they quickly expanded on that. For me, it was the scene on the bridge when she almost pushed Joffrey off, and we could see the sense of injustice burning in her eyes, and this exchange happened:

Joffrey: I'll tell you what. I'm going to give you a present. After I raise my armies and kill your traitor brother, I'll give you his head as well.

Sansa: Or maybe he'll give me yours.

That's how you do it.

Jaime is probably the biggest challenge for me right now. The thing is, his character in all of his complexity makes complete sense EXCEPT (glaringly) for the time he pushed Brann off the tower. I mean, he did it casually, completely without hesitation or remorse, like he pushes kids out of windows all the time. The show has done much to justify his slaying of the king, which works for me, but it hasn't touched Brann.

Jaime only makes sense if you ignore the Brann episode. We have no indication that he regrets it. Jaime is being re-evaluated, not evolved. The difference is crucial.

Does anyone know if the books deal with that better? Please let us know, unless it involves future spoilers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: The Perineum Falcon on May 17, 2013, 12:19:26 PM
This episode was one of the more divergent in recent memory, all the more interesting that Martin was responsible for it. I take it as a chance for him to tell a different story than the one of the books. At first, I saw this as a problem, as most readers. I was not as enamored with the second season as I was with the first, mostly due to these divergences. But my mind has changed because of this season; they've handled it much better. It is interesting to see how the characters develop on screen apart from the books. It's an alternate history of Westeros, and this excites me. They will still follow the major plot points of the books,  however the journey has changed. What happens if they take a left instead of a right? It grants those that think they know how it will play out a few surprises along the way.

I'm really looking forward to the season finale. It's gonna be BIG. No doubt there will be much discussion afterward.

Jaime is one of the most interesting characters to follow. In the books, at least, he is one of the best developed. As for the Bran incident, Jaime has no qualms with taking a life if he will greatly benefit from it; it's about survival, you either win or you lose. The push was casual, but the impetus was protecting himself and his family. I'm sure there's some remorse there, but justification as well. If Bran had been allowed to legitimize the rumors, the Lannisters would have lost the throne, and their name would have been besmirched. Imagine how Tywin would have handled that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2013, 12:26:23 AM
Some insight from AV Club comments about why the episode is called Second Sons. Paraphrasing:

- "Second Sons" was the mercenary company.
- Tyrion is Tywin's second son, literally and figuratively.
- Stannis is Robert's younger brother. The second son of Steffon Baratheon.
- Sam is a figurative second son, abused/disliked by his father, which was highlighted in this episode.
- The Hound is a second son, the younger brother of The Mountain and forever in his shadow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on May 20, 2013, 08:48:25 AM
yeah yeah.

how bout this mufuckin episode from last night NOW THAT'S GOOD GoT.

spoils..

the little thing cos it was an old thing it killed the thing good. oh man!

little dude standoff with little king WOW best scene of the episode.

hound befriending little cool chick was a surprising development, i was expecting 03's prediction to come true. i guess he's the next bad dude we'll be made to sympathize with.

pretty boy and khaleesi, he was pissing me off until he dropped "valar morghulis" and i knew some good shit was gonna go down. hope he doesn't bang her though, oldmate ser jorah friendzone has been gunning for it for so long!

this show is probably the best written soap opera of all time. i feel like the old lady was kind of referencing this when going through the convoluted relationships that will result from the lannister/stark/tyrell marriages. everyone's just trying to get some, just that this is prime time and features child brides. madness!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
hound befriending little cool chick was a surprising development, i was expecting 03's prediction to come true. i guess he's the next bad dude we'll be made to sympathize with.

I think so, but he's never been that bad has he? I guess he killed Arya's friend, but he was doing that on orders. Maybe there's something else I'm forgetting. He saved Sansa from the rapey/murdery mob, prevented Sansa (wisely?) from pushing Joffrey off the ledge, offered to take Sansa from King's Landing (but she turned him down), clearly hates Joffrey, seems to have an amount of honor, and apparently has a soft spot for the Starks.

He also refused Joffrey's order(s) to abuse Sansa, which they say is more clear in the books. Someone describes it here:

Quote
Yes, he did ask the Hound to hit her and Sandor refused the order.
It's in her third chapter in Clash, the same one where she is stripped and then beaten with the flat of the sword. Joff gives the command, "Dog, hit her" and his refusal is rather obvious by the fact that he doesn't. Instead, Dontos begins to hit her with the melon with the hope this would satisfy Joff. Of course, it does not and Trant (I think it was Trant) actually beats her. The Hound then calls out "Enough" and Joff replies that it is not and says "make her naked" which is when her gown is ripped off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2013, 10:50:18 PM
I've read a storm of swords by now, and while i know what is going to happen, I am still intrigued as hell to see how it all plays out here.

I have non spoiler question for you of anyone who has read the 3rd book. obvsly please no spoilers.

right now we have seen eight episodes, are we near the end of the book? I ask because there are only two episodes left and it feels there is too much going on, and even though mac posted an article where the creators said they would adapt the whole book, ive read comments that still claim they're adapting only half....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2013, 11:12:24 PM
My impression was that the book is still being split into two seasons, so we will end this season somewhere near the middle of the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 02, 2013, 11:06:25 PM
HOLY SHIT!!


spoils S03E09




is everyone speechless??


this fucking show, read a few weeks ago a random comment about Robb so I had a bad feeling but not this bad, not like this.  :(

these Starks cant catch a break can they? at least the hound took Arya and she's "safe" (so far)

I hope the Stark kids live at least this season because I cant take losing one more.

btw, I didn't get why Catelyn realised what was going to happen, what was the thing she saw under Bolton's sleeve?


I'm devastated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
(Spoilers for this episode)


Uhh yeah, wow, that whole thing was executed in such a harrowing way. It reminded me of the scene in Qarth where the whole council had their throats cut, except this obviously had crazy emotional impact. (These were three of our lead characters!) It also reminded me of that scene in Braveheart (omg Braveheart spoilers incoming) where his wife's throat is cut. There's something about matter-of-fact stabbings and throat-cuttings of major characters that reliably delivers maximum devastation.

The stomach stabbing was absolutely horrifying. It certainly delivered that sense of WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?!? — that look on Talisa's face is pretty much how I felt. I still can't close my jaw.

Even more devastating was Catelyn's final expression. All the tragedy of her life was crystalized in that moment. And of course she had to be the last one to go, her throat unceremoniously sliced, the blood basically spraying at the camera. Her tragedy just usurped Ned's.

I definitely appreciated all the foreshadowing in this episode:

- Frey shrugging off the oath-breaking should have raised some serious red flags.
- Someone said of the impending festivities, "the hall will flow red with wine" or something like that.
- The surprise pretty daughter should have sincerely freaked people out. Why on earth would Frey be so generous?
- Bolton refusing wine.
- Robb and Talisa's excessive happy talk and smiling was like a screaming alarm.
- When sizing up Talisa, I think Frey was actually confirming that she was pregnant (his talk about being able to tell what the dress is hiding and such).

That's from memory; I'm sure a rewatch would yield a few more. Tell me what I missed.

When GRRM was writing the book, he was like... man, I need to kill another Stark, but it really needs to have some impact this time. Let's kill a few of them... and one of them should probably be a fetus.

btw, I didn't get why Catelyn realised what was going to happen, what was the thing she saw under Bolton's sleeve?

She was first tipped off when the guards closed the door. Then she started looking around and putting things together, and you could just feel that sinking feeling along with her. The dread in that scene was amazing.

Anyway, she saw that Bolton was wearing chain mail under his clothes, i.e. he was dressed for battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 01:24:29 AM
Some more to chew over...

"The Rains of Castermere," in addition to being the title of this episode, is the song that plays just before the massacre. It is the Lannister victory song, which Cersei apparently mentioned last episode.

Don't forget Melisandre's leeches! Robb was one. The other two were Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy.

Why did Jon ditch Ygritte? Maybe he's disillusioned because she killed that innocent guy.

Also I want to echo this sentiment that many people are having right now: Burn it, Daenerys. Burn it all to the ground.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 01:31:28 AM
I definitely appreciated all the foreshadowing in this episode:

- Frey shrugging off the oath-breaking should have raised some serious red flags.
- Someone said of the impending festivities, "the hall will flow red with wine" or something like that.
- The surprise pretty daughter should have sincerely freaked people out. Why on earth would Frey be so generous?
- Bolton refusing wine.
- Robb and Talisa's excessive happy talk and smiling was like a screaming alarm.
- When sizing up Talisa, I think Frey was actually confirming that she was pregnant (his talk about being able to tell what the dress is hiding and such).

That's from memory; I'm sure a rewatch would yield a few more. Tell me what I missed.


not from this episode but last season Catelyn warned Robb that ''you dont cross a man like Frey'' or something like that when he was about to marry Talisa.


When GRRM was writing the book, he was like... man, I need to kill another Stark, but it really needs to have some impact this time. Let's kill a few of them... and one of them should probably be a fetus.

read this, it's GRRM talking about the red wedding, dont worry, he just talks about what happened in this episode and nothing else.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
Interesting interview. I totally respect it as a creative decision... in fact all the foreshadowing and setup probably goes a little further than it has to.

But this is my feeling right now. You can put all the surprises you want elsewhere in the story, but if Daenerys doesn't deliver, I think I will be genuinely and unforgivably disappointed. You can make it complex... let her be corrupted, even... but she must deliver. I mean really. White walkers are killed by fire, and she happens to have fire-breathing dragons. Seems like things should come together. If she fails, it's just going to be dumb.

Oh and another piece of foreshadowing in this episode, delivered by Robb: "My mother's alone with Roose Bolton. I should rescue her."

Very funny, writers. That's just cruel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 01:55:32 AM
Some more to chew over...

Don't forget Melisandre's leeches! Robb was one. The other two were Joffrey and Balon Greyjoy.

Why did Jon ditch Ygritte? Maybe he's disillusioned because she killed that innocent guy.

Also I want to echo this sentiment that many people are having right now: Burn it, Daenerys. Burn it all to the ground.

all the time Arya was staring at the twins should be another sign, you can see in her sad/worried face she feels so close yet so far.

it makes sense now that she never made it since Melisandre told her they would meet in the future, I guess she's off the hook for now? speaking of witch....I'm taking a little comfort that Melisandre's leeches work, since Robb was the first one, maybe Balon is next and then Joffrey...

man the stark kids were so close to meet Jon, at least Bran saw him, btw, why didn't Jon recognize Bran's wolf? I mean he should....

Jon does care for Ygritte so I don't think he's disillusioned, maybe he will try to get her later when they attack castle black...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on June 03, 2013, 02:09:01 AM
man i knew this shit was coming but my stomach was turning the entire episode.

THE LORD OF LIGHT WILL HAVE THEM ALL
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tictacbk on June 03, 2013, 03:31:45 AM
I don't think I've ever reacted to an episode of television the way I'm reacting to this one.


I'm not sure if I thought it was amazing or if I want to give up on this show right now...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on June 03, 2013, 12:07:37 PM
that was one of the best episodes of television i have ever seen.

what a time to be alive.

more later.. i'm just gonna be in a coma for a few days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 03, 2013, 05:39:48 PM
This was the first time in a long time where I've genuinely been pissed off at a SHOW, as in a specific unit of 1 hour's worth of image and sound. Not with the production, characters, writing, story, etc...just plain PISSED OFF at the life that surrounded that unit of time spent watching.
Kudos to this show for building up to these sorts of crescendos every season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 03, 2013, 05:54:47 PM
SPOILERS EPISODE 9


http://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PM
more thoughts

right now for Sansa being married with Tyrion isn't so bad for her, now she doesn't have any good option where to go.

please let Arya at some point meet someone from Braavos so she summons Jaqen. valar morghulis.
i don't think the hound will harm her, question is, where will they go? what are his options? Stannis? some Stark bannermen? but how long can they still remain Stark bannermen? the Starks are gone as a power house. the Tullys?

btw, did they show what happened to Blackfish? don't remember seeing him, and he seems like a stand up guy, if he is it's only obvious he's gone by now, also, what about the uncle who married the Frey girl.....

one of two good things that happened is that Bran's storyline finally got interesting..

the other one is more proof of Sam's photographic memory, he reads he files it, just like that.


Edit:

My impression was that the book is still being split into two seasons, so we will end this season somewhere near the middle of the book.

Just read this: "The Red Wedding takes place in the middle of Martin’s third novel in the series, A Storm of Swords."
glad you were right.


guess huge cliffhangers are in order...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on June 05, 2013, 02:56:08 PM
jesus can she get cuter? super spoils: https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
btw, did they show what happened to Blackfish? don't remember seeing him, and he seems like a stand up guy

He went to pee outside; they made a point of highlighting that. I would bet that he escaped, since he's smart and probably would have noticed things going down. However, apparently the book makes clear just how many more of Robb's men died. Maybe we'll get a sense of the massacre's scope in the next episode.


also, what about the uncle who married the Frey girl.....

I assume he was killed. I'm sort of more curious about his "wife"... if she had any knowledge of the plot, etc.


Just read this: "The Red Wedding takes place in the middle of Martin’s third novel in the series, A Storm of Swords."

Strange. I read elsewhere that it's 2/3 through the book.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on June 05, 2013, 05:36:52 PM
Just read this: "The Red Wedding takes place in the middle of Martin’s third novel in the series, A Storm of Swords."

Strange. I read elsewhere that it's 2/3 through the book.

Well, the quote doesn't say it takes place at the halfway point, just "in the middle" of the book, i.e., somewhere between the beginning and the ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 06, 2013, 12:20:15 PM
well, can someone here that has read Storm of Swords tell us where in the book the RW takes place? (im looking at you squints)


was thinking about Arya and besides this

please let Arya at some point meet someone from Braavos so she summons Jaqen. valar morghulis.
i don't think the hound will harm her, question is, where will they go? what are his options? Stannis? some Stark bannermen? but how long can they still remain Stark bannermen? the Starks are gone as a power house. the Tullys?

another possibility since she has nothing else to lose she might want now to go to Braavos and become faceless....ok I cant stop thinking about this show and its possibilities.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
The Red Wedding is at 2/3 of the book. It end page 705. And it's 1128 pages long. The last 1/3 is the best, by the way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2013, 12:42:24 AM
Decent episode overall. It's tough after last week, but I think they did the best they could to make it feel somewhat like a finale. Everyone's arriving at their destinations. The white walkers finally got people's attention. And Daenerys is getting really popular. (The crowdsurfing scene worked for me, because her whole "Breaker of Chains" thing always works for me now.)

Looks like Arya and Brann's characters are deepening, and their stories are wide open for expansion now. That should be interesting. Especially Arya... I'm starting to see why the book readers love her character so much.

Ygritte and John appear to have serious relationship problems. But I predict they'll reunite battling the white walkers or something like that.

A few complaints. Tywin's dialogue with Tyrion was too on-the-nose. He doesn't need to say (twice) that he's more powerful than Joffrey, because he's been demonstrating it all season, and he just demonstrated it thirty seconds ago. I feel like "show don't tell" applies here. Also, Joffrey was cartoonish, nearly to the point of being non-threatening, which I could not have fathomed last season. Maybe they just really want our attention to shift to Tywin. And one last thing... I'm now 100% sick of Shae, who is dumb, and is also played by a horrible actress. (Not the best combination.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 11, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
I don't know for future seasons if I will wait to watch all the episodes together. I learned something happened called the Red Wedding. Then Jon Stewart made a joke about it. I am emotionally drained from binge watching a season filled with torture, standard GoT brutality and the Red Wedding. I am glad I have to wait till winter for more episodes. While I love the show and get more excited for it than any other show, I really need the break.

The Red Wedding has to be one of the most fucking fuck fuck fucked things that has happened or will happen on TV. Lady Stark's screaming and that silent stare still haunts me. So much pain in her face. Damn the old gods and the new. Damn them to the seven hells.

Ayra seeing Rob's headless body with the decapitated Dire Wolf's head was heartbreaking. There was so much talk about the violence after season one. The violence has gotten way worse and seems to be getting worse. I can't think of anything I've seen that is more violent than this show.

Is it too much to ask just one good thing to happen to the Stark Girls? Could Tyrion move Sansa out of Kingslanding? Get her away from the Lannisters and Joffery please.

Come on Khaleesii. You are our only hope. I no longer expect a happy ending for anyone on this show but you better raise some serious hell in Westeros.

I love Ygritte. She brings humor which so welcomed on this show which is masochistic to watch. Just the way she says Snow makes me laugh.

I would put my money on Little Finger being the ruler of Westeros when this all ends.

I am terrified TERRIFIED of the Red Woman. When she told Ayra they would meet again, I just had so much dread and it's even worse now after the season finished.

Will anyone be alive when Winter and the white walkers finally arrive?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pubrick on June 11, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
I love Ygritte. She brings humor which so welcomed on this show which is masochistic to watch.

i don't think you intended this to mean anything beyond the way she keeps repeating her catchphrase all the time, but her final use of it when she catches up to him in ep 10 is just crazy good. the masochistic comment about the show rings especially true in her display of love for him when she shoots three fucking arrows into him! excellent break up scene.

overall i was disappointed with the last episode. maybe because the red wedding was just so world shattering, but i think the problems with the finale go deeper:

- there was way too much exposition for a season closer, it felt like an opener. there was even unnecessary reminders of relationships like it was consciously trying to fill in late comer viewers who tune in only to see season finales of shows. this is a thing. the wrap up (FINALLY) for theon greyjoy's story was a good example of the characters talking WAYY too much about the significance of who is doing what to who and why.. it's like they were just summarizing a whole chunk of the book to someone who hasn't been paying attention.

- the emotional note they were going for in the last scene is just a lazy rehash of the heights they already reached when khaleesi liberated the unsullied. the lead up to the yunkai liberation was also messy and hard to follow, made worse by the awkward waiting for the gates to open. i get that she's OBVIOUSLY the real hero of the story but there's nothing in that last scene that we haven't felt before. we're already onboard, at this point it's just getting annoying.

- arya killing her first dude was the best part.

i think my overall criticism of this finale is that it reflects a badly structured season. obviously the red wedding would have been a good ending because it fundamentally changed the show. leaving it the way they did is just moving the plot along a little bit, it really felt like it just fizzled out. the entire show is a cliffhanger so it's not a good enough excuse to say "well they left us hanging cos we don't know what's gonna happen next.." duh that's the whole point of every episode, not just season finales. a GOOD finale needs to either provide closure -- this did NOT -- or at least burn shit to the ground (so to speak ) so that we can imagine what could possible grow from the ruins.. and they wasted that on the red wedding.

honestly, if THAT is all that happened in 1100 pages then that is a goddamn boring book! we know that more occurred because the book itself had to have an ending beyond the massacre at 2/3rds the way through. my friend who's read the whole thing confirmed that there was indeed at least ONE more major event that was supposed to take place. it's just poor structuring to not include it this season, whatever it is. that's why this felt ultimately unsatisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 11, 2013, 02:44:34 PM
obviously the red wedding would have been a good ending because it fundamentally changed the show. leaving it the way they did is just moving the plot along a little bit, it really felt like it just fizzled out.

The show has gotten into a predictable pattern that it needs to stop doing. The first three seasons have all lead up to a huge event that takes place in episode 9 leaving 10 to set up the next season. In season 1 Ned Stark is killed in episode 9. In season 2 it was the huge battle and season 3 it was the red wedding in episode 9. The events and actions themselves are completely unpredictable but going forward I'm going to expect something crazy is happening the 9th episode of every season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 11, 2013, 03:32:36 PM
honestly, if THAT is all that happened in 1100 pages then that is a goddamn boring book! we know that more occurred because the book itself had to have an ending beyond the massacre at 2/3rds the way through. my friend who's read the whole thing confirmed that there was indeed at least ONE more major event that was supposed to take place. it's just poor structuring to not include it this season, whatever it is. that's why this felt ultimately unsatisfying.

Season 4 will be mostly drawn from the last 1/3 of the third book.

But apparently it's complicated. GRRM says:

Most of season four will be drawn from the third book, A STORM OF SWORDS, though some material from the fourth and fifth books may be added. Books four and five, remember, take place simultaneously, not sequentially.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/318880.html?thread=17548704#t17548704
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on June 12, 2013, 02:52:25 AM
I'm okay with the 9th episode being the shocking climax, although I think after 3 seasons it's about time to let that one go.
I'm okay with the 7th episode of "Mad Men" and 18th episode of "Fringe" every season being a format-breaker, just because it lets them get a bit loose. GoT, however, uses their formula to shock and amaze, and if we keep seeing the same magic trick, it won't be as effective in coming seasons.
If they still do it, though, I'll live.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 13, 2013, 12:36:19 PM
agree this felt like the first two episodes of the season, however at least for me way better.

some episodes ago Bran's story felt without purpose, right now it's very interesting and has a lot of potential.

Tywin showing who's boss will always be fun/great, impressive how he managed to justify the red wedding.

poor Sansa cant catch a break, she was kinda happy making schemes with Tyrion and then BOOM.

as usual Arya is the best, she at some point must use that coin so she can meet with Jaqen (if that's what is for) right? please let that happen.


Season 4 will be mostly drawn from the last 1/3 of the third book.

But apparently it's complicated. GRRM says:

Most of season four will be drawn from the third book, A STORM OF SWORDS, though some material from the fourth and fifth books may be added. Books four and five, remember, take place simultaneously, not sequentially.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/318880.html?thread=17548704#t17548704

that's kinda good news isn't it? I mean, next season will be as mentioned and maybe the next two will be taken from book 4 and 5, that will give GRRM more time to have book 6 ready...


my friend who's read the whole thing confirmed that there was indeed at least ONE more major event that was supposed to take place. it's just poor structuring to not include it this season, whatever it is. that's why this felt ultimately unsatisfying.

it must be a time/money issue, the writers have said that given budget and time limitations they can only do ten episodes a season, if they'd do more it would hurt the quality....anyway, I wonder what that major event is, one or the two leeches left? can't be Balon Greyjoy dying, he's small potatoes, in fact I don't even know why Stannis mentions him, Balon has never (in the show) said he wants to be king, has he? so, it could be very well that little shit Joffrey.....unless GRRM wants us to be depressed forever and kills off one of the little Starks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on June 13, 2013, 01:47:50 PM
it must be a time/money issue, the writers have said that given budget and time limitations they can only do ten episodes a season, if they'd do more it would hurt the quality....anyway, I wonder what that major event is, one or the two leeches left? can't be Balon Greyjoy dying, he's small potatoes, in fact I don't even know why Stannis mentions him, Balon has never (in the show) said he wants to be king, has he? so, it could be very well that little shit Joffrey.....unless GRRM wants us to be depressed forever and kills off one of the little Starks.

Balon's inclusion was strange in the context of the show, but the Greyjoy's did revolt when Robert was king and are currently occupying land in the North without approval from the throne. He's one of the Five Kings. Maybe Stannis was like, "I've got these leeches lying around, it would be a shame to waste them"

I think wiping out a renegade Pirate kingdom that refuses to negotiate with anyone would be a wise move for anyone on the Iron Throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 13, 2013, 02:03:14 PM
that's kinda good news isn't it? I mean, next season will be as mentioned and maybe the next two will be taken from book 4 and 5, that will give GRRM more time to have book 6 ready...

This is an article from Slate. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/06/chart_george_r_r_martin_writes_faster_than_hbo_can_make_episodes_of_game.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/06/chart_george_r_r_martin_writes_faster_than_hbo_can_make_episodes_of_game.html)

Can George R.R. Martin Keep Up With HBO’s Game of Thrones? Probably.

Many Game of Thrones fans worry that George R.R. Martin may not be able to finish the remaining two books in his A Song of Ice and Fire series fast enough to keep up with the HBO series. In an appearance on Conan, Martin said the HBO show is “moving like a freight train.” But maybe there’s nothing to worry about. The above chart uses the average time between Song of Ice and Fire book releases to predict the times Martin will complete the remaining two books and compares this with the expected schedule of the show, which is supposed to run for eight seasons. (The third book was split into two seasons.) If Martin writes as fast as he normally does, he will have a little time to spare. It’ll be close, but he’ll make it.

This, of course, assumes Martin doesn’t take an exceptionally long time with the final two books—and he might. On Conan he described The Winds of Winter as a “fifteen-hundred page monster,” which would make it as long as A Dance With Dragons. If the last two take the six years that Martin took to release A Dance with Dragons, then expect the HBO show to go on hiatus or produce an ending based on hints from Martin. And who knows that there won’t ultimately be eight or more books? The series was originally supposed to be a trilogy.

Still, there are bigger problems to worry about—for example, hiatus or no hiatus, the teenage actors who play Arya, Bran, and Sansa are growing up much faster than their characters. Then again, maybe their characters will die in horrendous fashion before that becomes too noticeable.

-----

I could see a problem with the two books that have yet to be written. Martin has probably given hints to the producers about the two final books but book 3 had to be split into multiple seasons. Wouldn't you think the final two books be too epic for a single seasons as well?  I might be pessimistic but I see the show ending before the final book or we get an abridged version of the final books. Or as the show continues it gets further and further away from the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tictacbk on June 13, 2013, 02:18:11 PM
GoT, however, uses their formula to shock and amaze, and if we keep seeing the same magic trick, it won't be as effective in coming seasons.

I would extend this to the way they've been structuring episodes as well.  It feels like every episode nudges a handful of character's stories forward a bit (or they remained stagnant in Theon's case) and then in the FINAL scene something awesome would happen.  Sometimes that last scene was even with a character we hadn't seen yet that episode (it feels like it often was, but I'm just going by memory here).  This is the first season where I've watched them week by week and maybe that had something to do with it, but I'd like to see them mix it up a bit more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2013, 02:23:41 PM
Balon's inclusion was strange in the context of the show, but the Greyjoy's did revolt when Robert was king and are currently occupying land in the North without approval from the throne. He's one of the Five Kings. Maybe Stannis was like, "I've got these leeches lying around, it would be a shame to waste them"

I think wiping out a renegade Pirate kingdom that refuses to negotiate with anyone would be a wise move for anyone on the Iron Throne.

Still, he definitely should have included Tywin before Balon Greyjoy.

That device actually kind of annoys me. Why not use 1 or 2 or 3 more leeches to simply get rid of all your major enemies? Did something constrain them to 3 leeches? I feel like we didn't get enough information there.

If this Lord of Light business gets out of control, it could be a real problem for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 13, 2013, 02:28:31 PM
Balon's inclusion was strange in the context of the show, but the Greyjoy's did revolt when Robert was king and are currently occupying land in the North without approval from the throne. He's one of the Five Kings. Maybe Stannis was like, "I've got these leeches lying around, it would be a shame to waste them"

I think wiping out a renegade Pirate kingdom that refuses to negotiate with anyone would be a wise move for anyone on the Iron Throne.

Still, he definitely should have included Tywin before Balon Greyjoy.

That device actually kind of annoys me. Why not use 1 or 2 or 3 more leeches to simply get rid of all your major enemies? Did something constrain them to 3 leeches? I feel like we didn't get enough information there.

If this Lord of Light business gets out of control, it could be a real problem for me.

That leach scene with the Red Woman was an example for Stannis and Joer of the power of Kings Blood. The death of Rob Stark was the proof of the power of Kingsblood and the Red Woman. The Red Woman was then going to kill Gendry and use his blood in some evil way but he escaped. I think she picked those three cause they were most likely to be killed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2013, 04:53:46 PM
Thank you... That's actually a mostly satisfying answer. They were in fact the most likely to be killed. (I guess that further explains the inclusion of Greyjoy.)

I got the impression that sacrificing Gendry would have simply been a generic large sacrifice to advance Stannis's ambitions. But that makes less sense when they introduce the concept of naming names. If I were Stannis, I would be more excited about this precision sacrifice. Start chopping off pieces of Gendry and name them after your objectives. Something like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 13, 2013, 08:17:40 PM
If I remember correctly, at the time of the leeches Joer had convinced Stannis not to kill his nephew. She was using the leeches to show Stannis the power of King's blood. She picked the three most likely to be killed and the ones who's death that would have the biggest impact. The death of the hand to the king isn't as impressive as a king's death. Days of late, hand to the kings haven't lived that long anyway. It was only after the death of Rob Stark did Stannis want to go ahead with killing Gendry.

I got the impression that sacrificing Gendry would have simply been a generic large sacrifice to advance Stannis's ambitions. But that makes less sense when they introduce the concept of naming names. If I were Stannis, I would be more excited about this precision sacrifice. Start chopping off pieces of Gendry and name them after your objectives. Something like that.
I got that impression as well. With a drop of his blood, she could bring about one of his enemies death. With all his blood, she could advance Stannis' position to become king and get him an army and ships and whatever else he needs to become king cause right now he needs a lot more than a few people dead.

I'm interested in what the Red Woman will think of Khaleesii. The Red Woman worships the God of Light. She worships fire and says death by fire is the purest death. A woman that can't be burned or killed by fire and heat would have to be an Anti-God to the red woman's god of light. I want a showdown between Khaleesii and the Red Woman. The Red Woman tries some fire trick to kill Khaleesii and we know how that will end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 14, 2013, 11:19:07 PM
I'm interested in what the Red Woman will think of Khaleesii. The Red Woman worships the God of Light. She worships fire and says death by fire is the purest death. A woman that can't be burned or killed by fire and heat would have to be an Anti-God to the red woman's god of light. I want a showdown between Khaleesii and the Red Woman. The Red Woman tries some fire trick to kill Khaleesii and we know how that will end.

ha! I thought about that too. interesting theory but, shouldn't a woman that can't be burned is a god and not an anti-god?
also remember what Melisandre said to Davos when he returned to Dragonstone, she blamed him for losing that battle and hence the iron throne (for the time being), said that she could have stopped the wild fire had he not influenced Stannis to left her out.....so, does that mean she can control fire, therefore dragon's fire? also since dragons are magic hers would be enhanced making her really powerful....

but since Stannis will march north now that battle seems unlikely, so, is the war for the crown over for the time being?? or who will dare to fight the Lannisters? it should be Daenerys then right? but she is so far from Westeros that it'll be many many months (years probably?) till she gets to Kingslanding...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2013, 10:41:21 AM
There's also the possibility that Melisandre will turn and worship Daenerys. She certainly turned on a dime when she found out about the white walkers. And Stannis looks pretty pathetic compared to Daenerys... who also has king's blood and a pretty solid claim to the throne.

Side note, the show said as much and I'm sure the books agree, but why are dragons magic? Why can't they just be creatures in this world? What happened in Qarth certainly proved that they're magic, but what magical properties do they have exactly? So far we've just seen them fly around and breathe fire (which seems like something dragons just biologically do). I don't mean to bait for spoilers... please no spoilers...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2013, 01:30:13 PM
I wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Brando on June 16, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
I thought about if the Red Woman would worship Khaleesii or not. To me I think the Red Woman would be threatened by someone that can't be burned and I don't think she would consider Khaleesii the God of Light.

If I'm wrong, I still don't see the Red Woman abandoning Stannis for Khaleesii. She likes Stannis because she has control over him. Khalessii is wary of anyone dealing in dark magic so I doubt she would want the Red Woman around and definitely would never take her council.

I don't think the Dragons are magic themselves but their presence in the world allows magic. The Warlocks in season two said their magic reappeared or became stronger when the Dragons hatched from their eggs. Magic is more powerful in the presence of the Dragons and the Dragons are more powerful in the presence of Khaleesii. While I don't think they're magic, their presence has a huge effect on the magic world in Westeros. We didn't see the Red Woman until season 2 and after the birth of the Dragons. The Red Woman's dark magic maybe due to the birth of the Dragons. It would make a lot since to have these two woman's rise to power connected in someway as their both connected to fire.

I think the rise of the White Walkers could be seen as a metaphor for a lot of things including Global Warming. The Human race has a long history of ignoring rising threats.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2013, 08:53:05 PM
Very interesting.

The dragons do make sense. I think I'm mostly wondering if they have magic powers that we've yet to see. But yeah, I remember there were shooting stars when the dragons were born, and it was this big sign. I wonder if Daenerys will have this magic-amplifying effect in various places she visits along the way. Maybe it's already having an effect in Westeros... maybe this explains Beric Dondarrion being able to come back to life so many times, which (judging by the Red Woman's reaction) seemed like a new thing. Maybe what's being interpreted as the Lord of Light's power originates from Daenerys! That would be sort of mindblowing.

It's hard to tell what the Red Woman's motives are. We'd expect her to be a power-hungry manipulator etc. etc., but this might be another instance of GRRM undercutting our expectations. Her motive might be pure zealotry. She didn't think twice about switching focus to the white walkers. She might simply be moved by whatever she sees in that fire. I think she could turn on Stannis at any time. For example if she hears about the dragon birth and all of that or witnesses Daenerys doing something similar, how could she not view that, at the very least, as a miracle by the Lord of Light?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 19, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
(http://netdna.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/GoT-7.png)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on December 05, 2013, 11:40:19 AM
don't pretend yall didnt see the south park thing
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on December 06, 2013, 04:07:16 PM
I actually didn't out of fear they would spoil the books that haven't been adapted, so, I ask you, is it safe to watch them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on December 06, 2013, 04:24:02 PM
yeah its makes fun of the show, it doesn't really touch on the books outside of rr martin being present
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MacGuffin on January 12, 2014, 08:14:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSg_gJkU7ko
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Pozer on February 12, 2014, 02:57:04 PM
For the funnies..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Krz-dyD-UQ
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MacGuffin on March 10, 2014, 07:09:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb1QT-2sOXk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 04, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
spoilers for seasons 1, 2 & 3.


Game of Thrones: Long Story Short

A brief and entertaining history of how the HBO series came to be. Executive Producers and Writers David Benioff and Dan Weiss tell the entertaining and sometimes hard-to-believe journey of how the hugely popular book series are/were made into a smash HBO series. Narrated by Charles Dance, viewers get an insider's look as only the creators could tell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2p9dRl0yYo


has it been said which book are they adapting for S4? It must be what wasn't included from Book 3 for S3, but I wonder if it only covers that or part of Book 4 too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on April 06, 2014, 11:37:56 PM
That was pretty satisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on April 07, 2014, 06:56:00 AM
Spoilers 4x01

Fun episode. I counted at least four interrupted sex scenes (willing or unwilling) - some kinda nod to those who criticized this aspect of GoT? Definitely improvement, since nakedness in show started "feeling like carpenter making chairs".

Didn't waste much time in episode. Ending was both creepy and rewarding at the same time, mainly thanks to taking pleasure in removing next person from Arya's death list - sign that scene was written and directed from her perspective I guess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 07, 2014, 10:10:12 AM
SPOILS S4E1

Arya's story was the best, I liked that she killed those guys so calm, like she was tasting a cake with a knife to see if its done, just enough to send them to hell. she and the hound make a great duo.

I wonder if Sansa's encounter with Ser Dontos (the fool) will have any meaning in the future or it just served to remind her that she has done kind things and its better to move on.

I hope Dany's story won't be just about saving/freeing another city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: AntiDumbFrogQuestion on April 09, 2014, 02:10:21 AM
Arya's been my favorite since season 2, slightly a cousin to Tyrion.  See, Tyrion was the best season 1 IMO (Ned being close behind), but when they decided to plant the seeds to make the Stark daughter a vengeful (yet smart) bad@$$, I was all onboard. Glad to see it coming to fruition in a well-paced manner.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 13, 2014, 11:13:14 PM
HOLY SHIT!!!

SPOILS S4E2

.
.
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.
.
.
.
I cant believe little shit prince is gone, I kind of expected he would but not this soon. I have a big fucking smile on my face, although I probably will miss his shityness...

did that fool set Tyrion up? wait, did that twerp killed Joffrey? where the hell will Sansa go? with Shae maybe?

oh well, this show is the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on April 14, 2014, 06:09:40 AM
Spoilers 4x02

I'll skip elephant in the room part and instead focus on House Bolton. Shaving has to be one of the creepiest scenes in the series so far. There is a reason why they spent much of the opening with Roose and Ramsay. Their cruelty and menace can be contrasted with that of Joffrey. For one they take it to another level - they would win creep of the year award easily in Westeros. They take pleasure in doing despicable things, but at the same time there is some practicality to it compared to Joffrey.

There is something compelling about this family as weird as it sounds - I'm looking forward to seeing more of them. There is part "you pass sentence, you swing sword" to them compared to Lannisters - Roose didn't hold from butchering Robb Stark, where it was plot of Tywin for the most part. There is very little nobility, when it comes to Houses, so maybe Westeros deserves to have Boltons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:55 AM
Episode 3 Spoilers

Carcetti is such a bad actor. He acts like he's being controlled by an alien parasite. Also, whatever he's trying to do with his voice needs to stop.

Budget Eric Bana is unconvincing as Dany's love interest.

Jaime's season 3 redemption arc was pointless then? Looks like the writers thought no one was willing to look past him throwing a kid out a window so they cemented his evil with the rape last episode. Which is a weird thing to do to the character because protecting someone from being raped was what caused him to lose a hand.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 21, 2014, 11:56:00 AM
SPOILERS

Jaime's season 3 redemption arc was pointless then? Looks like the writers thought no one was willing to look past him throwing a kid out a window so they cemented his evil with the rape last episode. Which is a weird thing to do to the character because protecting someone from being raped was what caused him to lose a hand.

I looked into this last night, and it turns out the scene is consensual in the book, and the director also intended it to appear consensual in the show.

I just rewatched the scene, and you can tell they tried to make it seem consensual. The way she's gasping etc. We're meant to think that Cersei thinks the location is inappropriate but, in spite of herself, is still into it. The scene ends with Cersei saying "don't" while in closeup she pulls twice at his sleeve, pulling him toward her.

So basically, the director (and editors) dropped the ball on this one, because there is more nonconsent than consent happening there, and it definitely needs to be more clear. They thought a sprinkling of ambiguity would spice things up, but it ended up creating what could be the most misinterpretable scene in the show's history.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 21, 2014, 08:38:48 PM
Carcetti is such a bad actor. He acts like he's being controlled by an alien parasite. Also, whatever he's trying to do with his voice needs to stop.

THANK YOU. I've been trying to warn the world (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=10361.msg311216#msg311216) about Aidan Gillen for years (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=124.msg304922#msg304922), and people look at me like I'm crazy.


SPOILERS

Jaime's season 3 redemption arc was pointless then? Looks like the writers thought no one was willing to look past him throwing a kid out a window so they cemented his evil with the rape last episode. Which is a weird thing to do to the character because protecting someone from being raped was what caused him to lose a hand.

I looked into this last night, and it turns out the scene is consensual in the book, and the director also intended it to appear consensual in the show.

I just rewatched the scene, and you can tell they tried to make it seem consensual. The way she's gasping etc. We're meant to think that Cersei thinks the location is inappropriate but, in spite of herself, is still into it. The scene ends with Cersei saying "don't" while in closeup she pulls twice at his sleeve, pulling him toward her.

So basically, the director (and editors) dropped the ball on this one, because there is more nonconsent than consent happening there, and it definitely needs to be more clear. They thought a sprinkling of ambiguity would spice things up, but it ended up creating what could be the most misinterpretable scene in the show's history.

It's the curse of Straw Dogs. It's really hard to filmically convey the difference between rape and implied consent. That said, I don't think they should shy away from it or make excuses for it. Jaime raped her. The show should now deal with the consequences of that action. That's a thousand times more interesting than backpedaling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 21, 2014, 10:27:41 PM
I was half-convinced it was going to turn out that his character was secretly an alien from outer space who had just landed a week earlier and took an online course in human behavior, but no, as it turns out, he's just that bad an actor.
Haha, we might be on to something.
At least on this show his problem seems to be being an Irishman trying to sound like an American doing a British accent.

I don't think they should shy away from it or make excuses for it. Jaime raped her. The show should now deal with the consequences of that action. That's a thousand times more interesting than backpedaling.
The season's already been written and shot. They can't go back and fix what the director or editors fucked up. I think that event will probably never be acknowledged again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on April 21, 2014, 11:33:11 PM
There is something fake about Littlefinger itself as character, so I don't consider acting of Gillen a issue at all. I would go as far as saying it is one of the best casts in the series. His Batman-like voice is unsettling - it sounds wrong, but it is just right for character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Alexandro on April 22, 2014, 01:17:54 AM
yeah, littlefinger acting is no biggie. to be honest I've never noticed anything wrong with it myself. I remember complaints here about the actor in The Wire, never understood that either. Perhaps it's a language thing (which would be weird anyway but who knows).

the rape /not rape thing, wasn't even on my mind either. it clearly was a gray situation, where the action was wrong and they both knew it but went ahead anyway. it's not that hard to portray this ambivalence (the straw dogs reference, case in point) but it's hard to digest it if you expect a clear cut depiction of either acceptance of rejection of raping in a sexual act. no one wants to hear about a sexual act which wasn't 100% something (consensual or not), but this scene depicted that ambivalence.

however, two things. one: how does this affects jamie's redemption or whatever? why would this change anything? more in point: what redemption? he got honorable with his guardian, but that's as far as that went. two: what is raping a woman in this universe? they talk about rape every two episodes, it's been portrayed as a fairly normal thing, a fact of life, something that happens. what would be the supposed consequences for this within this world? the scene seemed to be about liberating a passion both characters had been suppressing for different reasons, finally liberated in the worst setting possible. within the moral rules of this world, incest is worst than raping, and incest besides the deathbed of it's own product is the best portrayal of the character's moral decay.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 22, 2014, 10:16:10 AM
however, two things. one: how does this affects jamie's redemption or whatever? why would this change anything? more in point: what redemption?
You don't think there was very obvious rehabilitation of his character throughout the 3rd season? His most significant acts in the first two seasons were pretty reprehensible.

Season 1-
Throwing a child out of a window.

Season 2-
Killing his cousin.

In Season 3 he-
-Saves a woman from rape
-reveals that the act he is most despised for was his most heroic and saved thousands of people from being burned to death
-goes back to rescue the woman he previously saved and fights a bear one-handed out of pure altruism

two: what is raping a woman in this universe? they talk about rape every two episodes, it's been portrayed as a fairly normal thing, a fact of life, something that happens.
The rape talk started only after a world war erupted, and real world history teaches us how common rape is in those times. I don't recall any mention of rape in season 1. In this very episode it is conspicuously noted that the Wall is populated mostly by murderers, rapers and thieves. Also, the Targaryens freely participated in incest but the king's right of the first night is still banned in Westeros.

I've read the books, and I'm not a big fan of them so I don't care about how the show diverges from them. But the scene in the book is incestuous  sex a feet away from the corpse of their incest child, that's really fucked up. Adding a non-consensual component does not add a lot to it.
But I agree that it's nothing to get hung up on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on April 22, 2014, 10:50:45 AM
where were all of you last week?????


The rape talk started only after a world war erupted, and real world history teaches us how common rape is in those times. I don't recall any mention of rape in season 1.

when the Dothraki took some village Dany saves the women from being taken/raped by them, she has a big confrontation with some Dothraki that challenges Drogo, that wound eventually kills him, also the witch tells Dany that she was already raped three times before she "saved" her.


about Jamie raping Cersei, I think he just reached a point where he couldn't take anymore shit from his family and acted like the Jamie of season 1, since he came back to Kingslanding he's been mocked by Joffrey, ignored by Cersei and relegated by his father, so maybe he just did that to show Cersei she doesn't dictate their relationship and that he couldn't take anymore shit from her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on April 22, 2014, 11:12:12 AM
when the Dothraki took some village Dany saves the women from being taken/raped by them, she has a big confrontation with some Dothraki that challenges Drogo, that wound eventually kills him, also the witch tells Dany that she was already raped three times before she "saved" her.
Good point.
I was focused on Westeros mostly. The Dothrakis are a world away and more of a Barbaric horde that is avoided by all civilizations. 

Good call about being relegated by his father. He is the Lannister heir but he chose to be relegated. The main reason he became a kingsguard previously was so he could be close to Cersei. But what the Big Book of Kingsguard scene and his blank page on it was meant to show was that now he's increasingly concerned with his own legacy. So this wasn't the Old Jaime, Old Jaime would never have done what he did this episode, because he loved Cersei. This was new Jaime trying to sever his ties with his previous concerns.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 22, 2014, 11:27:43 AM
Right. Like all rape, this had more to do with power than with sex. Jaime was being swept aside, and he reasserted his power over Cercei in a terrible way. And I would absolutely agree that it represents a huge regression in Jaime's "redemption" (that word doesn't feel quite right, but whatever). If anything, it reinforces that his family brings out all the worst parts of him, and he could only ever fully redeem himself by cutting ties with them completely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on April 22, 2014, 07:54:58 PM
I took the scene a little differently. This was Cersei exerting what little power she had left. Here she stands in front of her dead son, her father shitting on his legacy before stealing away her other son. She needs Jaime and takes advantage of the situation to exploit his love for her. She needs him to kill Tyrion, she needs him in her corner. I'm not saying she was begging to be raped right there, but it would be in character for her to realize that she could use the situation to her advantage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tictacbk on April 22, 2014, 10:03:20 PM
AVClub had an article worth reading about all the rape: http://www.avclub.com/r/203499tsd
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 22, 2014, 10:29:32 PM
My response to the chorus of "Why would they change from the way things happened in the books?": George R.R. Martin is not a very good writer. The showrunners and writing staff understand these characters and the craft of storytelling in general at a much higher level than he does. When they make changes, they make them because it enriches the story being told. The books are a template, they are not gospel.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 12:49:23 AM
The Dany/Drogo consummation scene is a great example of a change that was perhaps unwise. I'm glad they mentioned it in the article.

I did read that far into the book, and I was shocked when I got to that scene, because I had seen it in the show first as a cold, savage rape on some random windy cliff. To discover it was originally this tender, erotic, consensual love scene set by a warm summer stream or whatever was a bit surprising.

I prefer that version. The fact that Dany in the show grew to love Drogo by learning to accept being raped has been for me one of the big unhelpful question marks on her character and caused me to never like Drogo.

Even if you ignore that and just view it as Dany overcoming an obstacle to grow stronger, or using her sexuality to get ahead, that's pretty cheap as character journeys go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 12:54:41 AM
See, to me, a "tender, erotic, consensual" sex scene featuring a 13-year-old (in the books) girl who has essentially been sold into marriage is vastly more irresponsible than what the show did. The book version is just as much a rape as the show version, but at the least the show recognized the fact.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 01:06:56 AM
But that might be where cultural relativism can apply to this medieval fantasy world. Age of consent norms are obviously a bit shifted.

If you think GRRM is a little messed up for writing it that way, well, probably. He's admitted that his biggest regret is making the characters too young, Daenerys in particular.

In any case, Daenerys definitely experiences it as consensual. It happens in her POV chapter. It is described with flowery, tender language literally from her point of view. Not rape.

Here's the takeaway quote from that article:

Changing a scene from consensual sex to rape is not just a pedantic issue of accuracy—it’s a problem with story. The Daenerys Targaryen who falls in love with a man who granted her respect when no one else would is different from the Daenerys Targaryen who fell in love with her rapist. It changes that relationship. (Dany falling in love with Drogo, and calling him her “sun and stars,” makes a whole lot more sense now, doesn’t it?)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on April 23, 2014, 02:16:50 AM
But that might be where cultural relativism can apply to this medieval fantasy world. Age of consent norms are obviously a bit shifted.

Cultural relativism could apply just as easily to the show's version of the scene, too. Hell, even in the real world, marital rape was legally an oxymoron in every one of the United States until the mid-'70s.

My preference for the show's take over the book's is largely based on which one makes any damn sense to me. Dany's behavior tracks more logically with that of a completely inexperienced young girl forced into a situation beyond her control, and Drogo's behavior tracks more logically with that of the leader of a barbarian tribe of which their entire culture is based on raping and pillaging. The idea that she would go into the encounter in any mindset but abject terror, or that he would give the vaguest shit about acquiring consent (or even have apperception of the very concept) before proceeding is nonsensical to me on a character level.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 23, 2014, 11:48:17 AM
I think the show could have actually put the effort into developing those characters. Drogo and early Daenerys in the show might make some sense individually, but their romance is 100% nonsensical. You can't get around that. I even remember when Daenerys in the show referred to Drogo as "my sun and stars," because it was patently ridiculous. The fact that she would ever sincerely fall in love with TV show Drogo speaks to delusion or a victimization complex, not naivety.

The idea that she would go into the encounter in any mindset but abject terror

If you had a romance preceding and motivating the "encounter," you would not expect her to feel abject terror.

or that he would give the vaguest shit about acquiring consent (or even have apperception of the very concept)

Game of Thrones is all about shades of grey and about characters sometimes unexpectedly diverging from type. One should not have an allergic reaction to the idea of a Drogo with character nuance.

Cultural relativism could apply just as easily to the show's version of the scene, too. Hell, even in the real world, marital rape was legally an oxymoron in every one of the United States until the mid-'70s.

Since he's legitimately concerned with the experiences of his female characters, GRRM makes a pretty massive distinction between consent (which includes the Daenerys situation) and non-consent (which includes rape and marital rape).

The fact that marital rape is acceptable to many characters in this world means next to nothing, because GRRM is constantly making value judgments that the reader goes along with. There is a world of difference between the marital rape that Sansa almost experiences and the romance that Daenerys has with Drogo. That value judgment is made, and we're invited (rightly) to participate in making these value judgments.

It doesn't make any sense to suggest that cultural relativism covers both. Certainly the average slob in Westeros doesn't care whether Sansa is in love with Joffrey, but why should that infect our value judgments or make us less willing to make moral distinctions?

And that's really the greatest thing about Game of Thrones and this universe. It's not just about experiencing their crushing medieval existence and their various backward ways, it's about exceptional people breaking through it, finding dignity and honor by diverging. That's what draws us to the Starks, and that's obviously what Daenerys is all about.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on April 27, 2014, 04:51:52 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/SlbTS57.gif)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 02:34:21 AM
No spoilers this time, just general overview of some aspects. So far I feel that this season is very solid, enjoyed it quite a bit. One thing that is noticeable is amount of tit flashing, which was reduced or at least is less of in your face type - which is improvement I guess, since it did got tiresome at some point. I also like those CGI backdrops, I don't mind computer generated content as much, when it is in background and not foreground. Did they save some cash for VFX by not showing dragons so often? That could be the case I suppose.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 06, 2014, 04:01:18 AM
spoilers


kind of meh episode.
what was arya expecting to accomplish by stabbing the hound directly in his super obvious armor with a needle like sword called needle?

call me dumb but im having a little difficulty following whats going on with sansa.

sword through the mouth was awesome.
more later upon rewatch
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 04:50:37 AM
Spoilers 4x05

call me dumb but im having a little difficulty following whats going on with sansa.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Before forced marriage, Lysa (crazy aunt) and Littlefinger had chit-chat about events that took place in the very first episode of the series. It turns out that Lysa poisoned her husband, then Hand of the King on the orders from Littlefinger (they had sexual relationship). Then she sends a letter to Catelyn informing her about suspecting poisoning of Jon Arryn, which pretty much started feud between Starks and Lannisters, which in turn started whole mess.

Not sure if you noticed, but Littlefinger telling Sansa that she is safe was pretty much a red light. At King's Landing she had some friends or at least people willing to help her: Brienne, Jaime, Tyrion, Varys, Tyrells. Then she was implicated in murder of Joffrey by gift from Littlefinger - necklace that contained poison.

Now she is all alone with crazy aunt that is jealous (she asked her outright if she fucked Littlefinger), her wacky son and Littlefinger that has some murky plans about Sansa. Very few people know that she is in the Vale, meaning that Sansa potentially could be disposed without anyone noticing (moon doors?). With nowhere to run, she if far from being safe.

Was that helpful or unnecessary?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
I actually thought it was a great episode. Michelle MacLaren needs to direct everything... that was my first response.

Sansa was indeed probably safer at King's Landing. However, it's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing, and I actually do think he wants to protect her. Remember how he was with Catelyn? He may be creepy, but he's honorable in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if something happened to Lysa. Clearly Littlefinger has something else planned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 12:31:54 PM
Spoilers 4x05

Sansa was indeed probably safer at King's Landing. However, it's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing, and I actually do think he wants to protect her. Remember how he was with Catelyn? He may be creepy, but he's honorable in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if something happened to Lysa. Clearly Littlefinger has something else planned.

Honorable is wrong word in any context regarding Littlefinger. He definitely had something toward Catelyn, in that view Purple Wedding can be a revenge. Still allying himself with Tyrells, when Lannisters aren't getting any richer is just way too convenient.

I wouldn't be surprised if anyone around Littlefinger was killed. He removes obstacles that can't be manipulated to his needs and/or there is some gain for him in doing so. Would be Sansa much safer with just Littlefinger?

He was trying to scare/impress/teach Sansa since her arrival in King's Landing. Does he have honest intention towards her or that she is Stark is more important? He is definitely playing long game, but beyond that I don't know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 06, 2014, 12:45:31 PM
*edit: wrote the post before reading Mel's comment, which I completely agree with*


Littlefinger and honor is like water and oil, they just don't mix...you are right thou that he must have a card under his sleeve and that he really wants to protect Sansa but that thing he has for her isn't semi-paternal, no fucking way.

like Mel already pointed out, he pretty much is responsible for this war, which started with Jon Arryn's death and the infamous Tyrion's dagger...then starks started to die and in that process Catelyn which he 'loved' (obsessed about), maybe that's why he killed Joffrey, to avenge her death? and also an opportunity to make another powerful friend.

-------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o --------------------

If some ppl in Kingslanding believe Tyrion is innocent, then why the hell haven't they wondered who else could have plotted to kill Joffrey? we haven't seen much of Varys, I imagine he would suspect of him if they rule out Tyrion for once and for all or Jaime who believes in his brother, why in the fuck he isn't talking with his father about it.

-------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o --------------------

I hope Dany's journey doesn't turn tedious, I think its great that she wants to go back set free again those ppl, but maybe this time it'll come with a price, maybe she loses one of her dragons, Jorah or someone else...

-------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o -------------------- o --------------------

it made me so happy when Bran-Hodor killed Locke, and I wanted to see Bran with Jon again but I guess that isn't interesting and would have been just for sentimentality sake...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 06, 2014, 01:53:47 PM
Spoilers

If some ppl in Kingslanding believe Tyrion is innocent, then why the hell haven't they wondered who else could have plotted to kill Joffrey? we haven't seen much of Varys, I imagine he would suspect of him if they rule out Tyrion for once and for all or Jaime who believes in his brother, why in the fuck he isn't talking with his father about it.

I presume that Tywin is already working on it. Yet I see how he could still sacrifice Tyrion for the good of family. By blaming Tyrion it becomes a personal matter, otherwise it means that they have powerful enemies and Lannisters could look weak (not immune anymore).

Beside I'm not sure if it would change much if Tywin would find out. Is he smart as he think he is? Olenna initially was outmaneuvered by Tywin in Sansa-Loras marriage plot. Now it seems the other way. Olenna pointed out possible problems with Iron Bank to Tywin, just before Joffrey's death. Was that only by coincidence? I don't think so. Beside Olenna is really interested in good of family in my opinion and she didn't want enter the war initially. That sets her apart from Tywin and his drive for power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 06, 2014, 03:54:49 PM
By "honorable" I meant "not rapey." And I do believe that. This is a complex universe; I think Littlefinger can be creepy while also being at least sufficiently protective of Sansa.

it's pretty obvious Littlefinger has a thing for her, perhaps a semi-paternal thing

^ I was trying not to come out and say it, but to me his thing for her feels both paternal and sexual, i.e. incestuous. Again, creepy, but it could still work in her favor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 12, 2014, 02:19:15 AM
NOW THATS SOME GOOD FUCKING GOT
holy crap! one of the best episodes ever?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on May 12, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
Tyrion's smackdown of the court was truly cathartic.

Loved Dany's scene, from a visual standpoint it was one of the best of the series. This is why Westeros has a small council, you can't micromanage everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 12, 2014, 12:44:46 PM
Yup another great one. This season is going quite well.

Spoilers for this episode...

Remind me how this works. Who will be engaged in the "trial by combat" on either side? The Mountain vs. Bronn?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Axolotl on May 12, 2014, 01:45:34 PM
Spoilers for this episode...

Remind me how this works. Who will be engaged in the "trial by combat" on either side? The Mountain vs. Bronn?
We'll find out next week.

Or you can look up the title of episode 8.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 12, 2014, 02:19:25 PM
Spoilers 4x06

Remind me how this works. Who will be engaged in the "trial by combat" on either side? The Mountain vs. Bronn?

I'm not sure how it works either. We have seen two trails by combat so far: Tyrion and Hound. In normal condition it is accused versus accuser I think. So it would be Cersei, but she is unfit to fight (same as Lysa Arryn), so she will name champion. Tyrion will probably demand the same.

As who will be named, title of next episode is kinda spoilerish, but we can still theorize. It would be interesting if any of the side named Jaime. Would Tyrion risk his life if Cersei named him, would Tywin risk his life if Tyrion named him?

I'm not sure if choice of "trail by combat" is a surprise to Tywin, since Tyrion did that before. I personally think that he is more angry (deal that included Jaime did go south), than surprised. At least with "Done!" scene, Tywin again proven he plans few moves ahead.

I liked episode very much, still one scene was a bit phony: Yara escaping from Dreadfort (editing/time issues?). Other than that, episode was full of memorable scenes.

One thing that I didn't quite understand is talk between Oberyn and Varys. Best I get about Varys speech about desires and pointing at Iron Throne is some kind of double game. Is it warning about pursuing Mountain and that Oberys should focus on bigger picture? Otherwise words of Varys don't kinda apply to him directly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 14, 2014, 09:38:02 AM
It is such a great moment, I could watch over and over again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvX4k_3Cmvs

Interesting I didn't notice before that he called Joffrey a bastard in public - I mean I did hear it, but I did forget about implications of doing so in GoT. As a bonus crew of GoT discussing whole scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVVr4_h8X4g
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2014, 06:16:20 PM
SPOILERS FOR LAST EP


Tyrion's move might have been ripped from the headlines. Story from 2002:


Court refuses trial by combat

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1416262/Court-refuses-trial-by-combat.html

A court has rejected a 60-year-old man's attempt to invoke the ancient right to trial by combat, rather than pay a £25 fine for a minor motoring offence.

Leon Humphreys remained adamant yesterday that his right to fight a champion nominated by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) was still valid under European human rights legislation. He said it would have been a "reasonable" way to settle the matter.

Magistrates sitting at Bury St Edmunds on Friday had disagreed and instead of accepting his offer to take on a clerk from Swansea with "samurai swords, Ghurka knives or heavy hammers", fined him £200 with £100 costs.

Humphreys, an unemployed mechanic, was taken to court after refusing to pay the original £25 fixed penalty for failing to notify the DVLA that his Suzuki motorcycle was off the road.

After entering a not guilty plea, he threw down his unconventional challenge. Humphreys, from Bury St Edmunds, said: "I was willing to fight a champion put up by the DVLA, but it would have been a fight to the death."


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2014, 02:08:40 AM
I hate to say I told you so... but yeah...

Protecting Sansa, check. Shadings of paternal incest, check.

"You could have been my daughter." A few seconds later: *smooch*... I didn't expect her to be into it, though. Interesting.

Decent episode, but the directing felt lackluster. Also, too much exposition/subtext-as-text in that first scene with Tyrion and Jamie.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 19, 2014, 06:56:13 AM
Spoilers 4x07

Decent episode, but the directing felt lackluster. Also, too much exposition/subtext-as-text in that first scene with Tyrion and Jamie.

Rhythm of the episode didn't feel right to me either. After some consideration, I think I know the reason. This is basically a filler episode. Judging by the amount of intimate scenes it was cheaper to do than some of the previous episodes. To be honest I don't mind it too much - a payoff was still there.

All scenes with Tyrion make sense to me - it is pretty much a goodbye. I'm not sure how it will end up for him and that works. It is interesting that there was a lot of honesty or at least half-truth saying in this episode.

As for Sansa and Littlefinger it looks like it could turn into Graduate type of relationship or something similar. Confusing to say at least.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: picolas on May 20, 2014, 02:49:56 PM
spoils 4.7

i loved that episode, but there were some sloppy choices here and there:

- the mountain killing random dudes for no discernible reason. does it matter? not really, but odd.
- arya killing a dude who's just standing there waiting to be killed. it was funny, but i wish he'd been in a corner or something.
- dany's overextended, awkward penis gaze.
- sansa slapping robin felt abrupt and unearned DESPITE the fact that everyone already wants to slap that kid.
- the sansa/littlefinger kiss lasted way too long/felt out of character for sansa. more on that later...
- lysa holding sansa over the moon door.... first off, the way sansa just joined her there with little to no hesitation was nuts. she should have at least tried to keep her distance, especially after lysa grabbed her arm out of nowhere the last time they had a chat. the way lysa actually held her over the door was so odd. she was, like, grabbing her just below the neck. i was never convinced she was in a position to push her out. she should've been holding her whole body or something. carrying her. it detracted from the suspense for me.

i've been reading/comparing the book a bit this season and i want to talk about some differences between this ep and the text. there are ZERO spoilers (because i don't know them) but i thought i should mention that:

lysa reveals the whole jon arryn thing in a moment of weakness/anger before littlefinger pushes her out the moon door, which makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE than how they did it in the show. in the show she says it for no reason in between making out and it gets thrown into the middle of an episode, even though it's one of the biggest twists in the series thus far. lots of people didn't even register how important it was after the episode was over. i don't understand why ben/weis decided to shift it into such a weird place. it would've had so much more impact at the end of this episode, and littlefinger's push would've been WAYYY better motivated. i also prefer how in the book, littlefinger helps sansa build the castle which robin ruins much more intentionally with a giant doll. when littlefinger takes advantage, sansa is much more resolutely like 'ewwwwww! you could be my dad!' and he's like 'but i'm not! haha!'. it's been really interesting watching the season through this lens, but often to the detriment of the series. not sure if i should keep doing it but i love all the details that the show is missing out on or changing for no reason. sometimes they get it right, and i still love the show to death. i liked the new tyrion cell scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 20, 2014, 03:23:52 PM
Spoilers 4x07

lysa reveals the whole jon arryn thing in a moment of weakness/anger before littlefinger pushes her out the moon door, which makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE than how they did it in the show. in the show she says it for no reason in between making out and it gets thrown into the middle of an episode, even though it's one of the biggest twists in the series thus far. lots of people didn't even register how important it was after the episode was over.

Arryn's murder mystery was already reveled two episodes back - it was discussed in thread. Or you mean something else by biggest twist?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: picolas on May 20, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
*book differences 4x07 not book spoilers*

you're misreading. i'm saying the way they revealed it in the show--two episodes back, for no reason--was far less motivated and less impactful than the way they reveal it in the book, which should have been this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2014, 04:18:28 PM
Hmm that does sound better, picolas. As a non-book reader, that reveal still definitely felt smashed in there. Could feel the writers behind it in a way I generally haven't this season.

The imperfectness of the Sansa business, I think, can be attributed to the problematic direction. It's weird because the same guy directed the previous ep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on May 20, 2014, 04:24:40 PM
i agree picolas. ive read that part of the book, after being told about it, after last episode, not when it happened in the tv series. and it is infinitely more satisfying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 21, 2014, 01:17:40 PM
Good episode, some thoughts.


I'd have liked a better reaction from Arya when she heard that Joffrey was death, he was probably at the top of her list and yet when that guy mentions Joffrey’s gone she doesn't react, and the camera didn't stay long on her either for that matter, anyway a minor complaint.


All three of Tyrion’s scenes where top notch, since he was incarcerated I've been worried that he would be killed but now that Oberyn will be his Champion that fear is gone, and I don't have a clue what will happen really (haven't read the 3rd book) but the Viper will beat the Mountain and hope it will be glorious.


About Sansa, that damn kiss felt like it lasted an hour, so JB was right, he wants to protect her and bed her, I hope the latter doesn’t happen. This show gets its fx right almost every time, but when Littlefinger throws Lysa through the moon door, the first frame of her falling looked a little fake. And how the hell will Littlefinger get away with that? I mean she has guards and shit, how will he justified that or will he run with Sansa? whatever happens I cant wait.


btw, no game next Sunday.  :yabbse-angry:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on May 21, 2014, 01:45:27 PM
Spoilers 4x07

I'd have liked a better reaction from Arya when she heard that Joffrey was death, he was probably at the top of her list and yet when that guy mentions Joffrey’s gone she doesn't react, and the camera didn't stay long on her either for that matter, anyway a minor complaint.

It was right for where characters is going, at least it seems so. There is so much death around here, that I guess she is getting used to it. Stabbing guy in the heart was almost mechanical - no emotions, just something she had to do.

About Sansa, that damn kiss felt like it lasted an hour, so JB was right, he wants to protect her and bed her, I hope the latter doesn’t happen.

She was abused and played for such a long time, that I wouldn't be so surprised if she felt for a protective figure as creepy as it sounds.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 21, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
It's clear from all our various complaints that it was the worst directed episode of the season, maybe in a while actually. Shame.

She was abused and played for such a long time, that I wouldn't be so surprised if she felt for a protective figure as creepy as it sounds.

Yeah, exactly. She also seems to be reacting to his potential sincerity, his appreciation for her mother, etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 22, 2014, 08:11:33 PM
Spoilers 4x07

I'd have liked a better reaction from Arya when she heard that Joffrey was death, he was probably at the top of her list and yet when that guy mentions Joffrey’s gone she doesn't react, and the camera didn't stay long on her either for that matter, anyway a minor complaint.

It was right for where characters is going, at least it seems so. There is so much death around here, that I guess she is getting used to it. Stabbing guy in the heart was almost mechanical - no emotions, just something she had to do.


while what you are saying sounds about right, in the specific case of Joffrey I wish we had seen something different, I mean this is the guy that took her father's head, she was right there at Baelor's statue when the little shit yelled ''bring me his head'', fortunately for her Yoren stopped her from going up there; he also was responsible for the killing of Micah and Sansa's wolf, and she had to scare away hers, so even if she's getting used to see and kill ppl, Joffrey being death should be a big fucking deal for her, he's done way too much harm to her and her family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: squints on May 22, 2014, 11:31:32 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/EbbS1rk.gif)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on May 29, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/fbv/REDVIPERvsTHEMOUNTAIN_zpsa368052c.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2014, 11:09:18 PM
SPOILS S4E8


I don't have a clue what will happen really (haven't read the 3rd book) but the Viper will beat the Mountain and hope it will be glorious.

fuuuuuuuuuck, I feel like someone punched me in the gut.

at least I wasn't wrong that I didn't have a clue. how will Tyrion get away of this one? I hope he does but it doesn't look like it will happen, will Jamie save him? how? this damn show, the red viper was my fave new character. fuck!


Sansa looked like Maleficent in that last scene, and apparently she's finally manipulating littlefinger or so I like to think so.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 02, 2014, 12:48:57 AM
SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

Yeah, that was definitely high on the list of GoT gut punches. The sound of Oberyn's skull exploding is so loud in the mix, too. Gawd.

Part of me loves how that played out, because it was so powerful, and because it illustrated quite well how revenge was his downfall. On the other hand, it feels like the whole "kill your favorite characters" thing is getting very close to crossing a line into tiresomeness and even predictability.

I'm guessing Jaime frees Tyrion but people believe he escaped, and Tyrion becomes an exile of some kind, embarking on a long journey, eventually to finally be reunited with Sansa! Yeah except for that last part.

When this show started, I heard from several book readers that Sansa was one of the show's least interesting characters, especially compared to her sister Arya. But I'm finding the opposite to be true. Arya is entertaining, but a little one note and kind of cold-blooded. And she has a fraction of Sansa's complexity... certainly now. I loved Sansa's testimony scene, even if I could see it coming from a mile away. I wonder what Baelish thinks of her now... is he falling for her, or is he beginning to respect her as an equal? It wasn't clear from the various "well, isn't she interesting" looks he gave her this episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 02, 2014, 05:49:52 AM
SPOILERS


SPOILERS


I read the books and knew what would happen to Oberyn. But still, the Red Viper is so fucking dumb! I was tense. The same way I believed Mufassa might not die this time in The Lion King, I believed Oberyn might kill the fucking Mountain. Just kill the dude, Oberyn, you arrogant prick.

Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the book, and was glad that, for once, the show showed how she's learned to survived. She's not the naive girl of the first season. She's tough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on June 02, 2014, 07:34:17 AM
Spoilers 4x08

According to honest trailer for GoT: "Actors on The Walking Dead have better job security". Still this was traumatizing.

My question is what happens if both champions die? Mountain took spear to the guts and we have seen characters dying from lesser wounds already. Doesn't look good for Tyrion anyway.

Arya laughing - good indication how events so far affected her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: 03 on June 02, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
spoilers ep8


i don't care if i'm out of line here or who disagrees with me: that episode sucked and the show is starting to.

that fight was fucking ridiculous for numerous reasons:
- oberyn talking the whole time was just silly.
- the mountain taking that long to kill him was ridiculous. i don't know if any of you know anything about sword fighting, but he is supposed to be this legendary fighter and he's stumbling around like an idiot with that sword, he looked like a giant baby.
- he got the mountain down, he put a fucking spear in his chest. HE WON THE FIGHT. if he wasn't dead YET, he still fucking won. if they are adhering to these weird medieval laws, you'd think there'd be MORE strictness than gray area, as has been seen so far. it's like, if you do something, no matter what the variables are, the consequences follow. so why in the hell did he get his opponent down, and from that point on it was up in the air what the verdict was??!? just because in a reflexive dying moment he happened to grab the stupid guy, that negates the fact that he was bested and fatally wounded by his opponent? call me stupid, but that makes no sense to me and the whole scene was bullshit. oberyn looked like a weird gay idiot, and before this he was pretty cool.


- as others mentioned before: killing off characters is boring and predictable and ridiculous now. especially the fact that how they do it is the same every time. "you think everythings cool? NO ITS NOT" i mean, when south park makes a freaking trilogy based solely on your plot device, its no longer a stereotype, it's a joke.

- bringing up all this shit from the past and tying up forgotten loose ends may work really well in the books, but in a tv show like this it's just confusing. jora getting cut loose for some shit that happened seasons ago that wasn't a big deal anymore and hasn't been addressed regularly? who cares. "now your name is bolton!" i thought it was already because i don't give a shit. they're juggling waaayy too many chainsaws at this point.

- sansa's scene was brilliant, i honestly loved how it played out.

- tyrions beetle story was beautiful.

- theon's performance, if you can call it that, was pretty dumb and weird. how could a dude that's been mentally and physically tormented and brainwashed just snap into a role and say things like that convincingly? or even just say them? he's been barely able to string a sentence together without sounding like a caveman, and he forgot his own fucking sister? so out of nowhere he can pretend to be his old self flawlessly? ok, i know he breaks down a little near the end, but still!!

still a huge fan but jesus what a disaster...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Drenk on June 02, 2014, 06:08:19 PM
Quote from: 03
spoilers ep8


i don't care if i'm out of line here or who disagrees with me: that episode sucked and the show is starting to.

that fight was fucking ridiculous for numerous reasons:
- oberyn talking the whole time was just silly.
- the mountain taking that long to kill him was ridiculous. i don't know if any of you know anything about sword fighting, but he is supposed to be this legendary fighter and he's stumbling around like an idiot with that sword, he looked like a giant baby.
- he got the mountain down, he put a fucking spear in his chest. HE WON THE FIGHT. if he wasn't dead YET, he still fucking won. if they are adhering to these weird medieval laws, you'd think there'd be MORE strictness than gray area, as has been seen so far. it's like, if you do something, no matter what the variables are, the consequences follow. so why in the hell did he get his opponent down, and from that point on it was up in the air what the verdict was??!? just because in a reflexive dying moment he happened to grab the stupid guy, that negates the fact that he was bested and fatally wounded by his opponent? call me stupid, but that makes no sense to me and the whole scene was bullshit. oberyn looked like a weird gay idiot, and before this he was pretty cool.


- as others mentioned before: killing off characters is boring and predictable and ridiculous now. especially the fact that how they do it is the same every time. "you think everythings cool? NO ITS NOT" i mean, when south park makes a freaking trilogy based solely on your plot device, its no longer a stereotype, it's a joke.

- bringing up all this shit from the past and tying up forgotten loose ends may work really well in the books, but in a tv show like this it's just confusing. jora getting cut loose for some shit that happened seasons ago that wasn't a big deal anymore and hasn't been addressed regularly? who cares. "now your name is bolton!" i thought it was already because i don't give a shit. they're juggling waaayy too many chainsaws at this point.

- sansa's scene was brilliant, i honestly loved how it played out.

- tyrions beetle story was beautiful.

- theon's performance, if you can call it that, was pretty dumb and weird. how could a dude that's been mentally and physically tormented and brainwashed just snap into a role and say things like that convincingly? or even just say them? he's been barely able to string a sentence together without sounding like a caveman, and he forgot his own fucking sister? so out of nowhere he can pretend to be his old self flawlessly? ok, i know he breaks down a little near the end, but still!!

still a huge fan but jesus what a disaster...


SPOILERS


I agree with you 03, they didn't do justice to the scene. It should not have been a cliffhanger; at this point, it's just ridiculous, looks like a gimmick. In the books, Oberyn doesn't have the charm he has in the show. He's an arrogant prick. It doesn't surprise me that he thinks he's untouchable. He wants vengeance. And he's a moron. The fact is: please, show runners, stop ending your episodes with someone dying.

Do we talk about the Unsullied watching naked ladies? No? Yeah. I don't understand what happened there. 50 Shades of Unsullied, maybe?

But the Sansa part was great.

I love GoT, it has perfect moments; I love all the scenes between Jaime and Tyrion. It's intimate and yet feels epic, in my opinion. But Daenerys bores me, and they shouldn't parody themselves. Oberyn's death in itself is not a big moment, the consequences are. That's what I want to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: polkablues on June 03, 2014, 01:59:17 AM
Not a whole lot to add, but that in a fight to the death, I'm pretty sure victory is contingent on your opponent actually being dead. So I'm not sure why 03 thinks Oberyn won the fight by knocking the Mountain down and stabbing him, when ensuing events demonstrated that he wasn't, you know, dead yet. There's no grey area there; dead or not dead is as binary as you can get.

I don't know, it was a perfectly fine, normal episode. The fight was fine, everything was fine. Arya breaking into a laugh when they get to the Vail and are told that her aunt is dead was one of the best moments of the season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Mel on June 03, 2014, 04:42:45 AM
Spoilers

that fight was fucking ridiculous for numerous reasons:
- the mountain taking that long to kill him was ridiculous. i don't know if any of you know anything about sword fighting, but he is supposed to be this legendary fighter and he's stumbling around like an idiot with that sword, he looked like a giant baby.

I'm no specialist by any means then it comes to the sword fighting, but as far I understand almost no film/series is depicting a realistic medieval warfare. Fighting in a state of the art armor included a shield and a short, light sword, where thrusts were aimed against the groin/neck/armpit. Sword against sword is just way more cinematic. I don't mind it in series with dragons and white walkers.

I enjoyed fight between the Viper and the Mountain for what is worth.

Quote
The fact is: please, show runners, stop ending your episodes with someone dying.

I don't mind it to be honest. As far I see it, show tries to make every death count - quite the opposite of meaningless CSI-style new victim every week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: diggler on June 03, 2014, 10:17:06 AM
I was actually surprised by how quickly the fight was over, I was expecting it to be more drawn out. The choreography was well done, I don't expect sword fighting to be realistic in this show, it's a fantasy series. I have to give props to the production value. I've been rewatching the first season with a friend of mine and it just feels so cheap compared to what the show is doing now. Sansa's walk down the steps looked beautiful.

Looking forward to Neil Marshall's return next week.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Alexandro on June 03, 2014, 10:56:19 AM
Yes, the production values in season 1 were completely worthless compared to what they have now.

I loved the swordfight, the way it escalated quickly and was done before you could process it. I was actually thinking about how exciting these tv shows can get and how movies need to think some shit up to enhance or push the experience somewhere else. Because these shows are doing everything hollywood movies do and doing it better (fargo too made me think of this).

Now yes, the guy dies, but if course our excitement / fear is not for him entirely. We know Tyrion is in deep shit now and the cliffhanger is what will happen to him.

Anyway, I love this fucking show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 03, 2014, 11:12:38 AM
I think we can stop marking spoilers in our posts, because they are all spoilers. I'll update the thread title and we can be done with it.

I don't think it's problematic that Oberyn did so well in the fight. For two reasons:

- His fighting style seemed to precisely exploit the Mountain's weaknesses.
- It was necessary to increase the impact of the ending.

And no, Oberyn did not win. It was almost worse than being smashed by the Mountain right away. The way Oberyn died was an absolute humiliation.

New prediction: Varys helps Tyrion escape. I would bet on it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 06, 2014, 07:05:44 PM
This should have been posted earlier. It's great. Massive spoilers obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 07, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
 yeah, I saw that :(

I usually re-watch the episodes but this time I couldn't see again Oberyin's death, it crushed me harder than any death yet, not even the Red Wedding which was devastating and far more cruel. Naively I was so sure he would make it, mainly because I felt his story was building into something greater, didn't expect he would kill any Lannisters but at least that he'd avenge his sister while saving Tyrion, how wrong I was...

New prediction: Varys helps Tyrion escape. I would bet on it.

I like your bet but why do you think that? the obvious choice is Jamie but this show isn't that, which btw Tyrion should be doomed since he has no apparent escape so then, is it logical he is going to make it? maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

I hope Tyrion somehow lives and escapes, this time though, I'm lowering my expectations.

Wonder how Oberyin's fate will be taken in Dorne, Tywin wanted them to get back into the fold an be again the seven kingdoms, now that's fucked, someone someday must make them pay for this.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2014, 01:16:33 PM
New prediction: Varys helps Tyrion escape. I would bet on it.

I like your bet but why do you think that? the obvious choice is Jamie but this show isn't that, which btw Tyrion should be doomed since he has no apparent escape so then, is it logical he is going to make it? maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

Jamie helping Tyrion escape is somehow too obvious, plus eyes will be on him. People already know he wants to save his brother.

Varys's testimony in the trial is what makes me think he will have some role in saving Tyrion. Don't remember the exact wording, but it vaguely sounded like he still wanted to honor what Tyrion did to save King's Landing. He likes Tyrion.

Jamie telling Tyrion "I'm the only friend you have left" etc. also strikes me as a hint that there is someone else, i.e. Varys. I can't think of another candidate.

Tyrion is going to survive for now. I think that much we can take for granted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 08, 2014, 02:34:38 PM
when is maclaren directing another episode? i want tonight to blow my socks off. last week i just felt like i had more socks put on. or wet socks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2014, 11:48:34 PM
Definitely going to rewatch this one in the next few days. What a technical achievement that was. Even the giants and mammoths were entirely convincing.

I still do not understand why King's Landing has offered zero help to defend the wall. I even remember Tywin saying that an attack on the wall might be imminent. That was a number of episodes ago. So he's not ignorant about it, not too late, and not helpless either. He has an army. The Tyrells have an army. So what's the deal? Can anyone enlighten me? I don't think I missed anything that would explain this.

Ygritte is problematic. I was glad when she died. I mean, we've seen her butchering random civilians in raids without a twinge of guilt. Also, she really didn't have enough time to decide what to do when she inevitably came across Jon Snow? Their encounter and that romantic moment... it was all a bit silly. And I might have literally cringed when she forced her catch phrase out one last time with her dying breath. She was really trying to make that a thing.

POTENTIAL BOOK SPOILERS:

Based on something I just read, it sounds like the battle in the books does in fact last multiple nights. I wonder if they've done some condensing. Surely we won't get more episodes early next season to cover the rest of the battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 09, 2014, 02:50:47 AM
ask and ye shall recieve. man alive, what an episode.

bestshit:

- they teased us with the amazing giants quite some time ago but it was entirely worth the wait.
- in addition to giants we had their equally amazing wooly mammoths. i literally felt like a child when i saw the first glimpse; the overall appearance and vibe of the creatures is storybook nostalgic, seriously. and they were insanely more amazing than the dragons ever were.
- every fight scene was brutal no matter how brief the shot
- long tracking shot was COCONUTS
- giants
- we have had solely action based episodes before that have not had similar emotional impact as some gutpunch episodes, but this one tied it together beautifully with doing mostly kickass action scenes that made me completely off guard for ygrittes death, call me crazy, but i didnt see it coming. and you know what? i want to blame the shows direction for that. not my ignorance. i was so absorbed, it made me fall in love with the show all over again, waiting to see if she would shoot snow..
-giants

notsobestshit:
- i HATE the samwell with chick and baby subplot. i love samwell by himself. i feel the only reason they continue the boring back and forth emotional tension between them only serves to build payoff when something kills them probaly.
- the defense strategies in this show usually make no fucking sense.
i mean, jesus christ, this is based super loosely on a time in history where warfare was taken very seriously, and these seasoned guys are all like 'yeah lets drop the barrels of flaming shit at the very last minute after we've let them kill a lot of us.' and the random switching of commandment? like ok now you do it and thats an order! just a little awkward.


overall one of the best episodes of the series due to visual wizardry and nicely executed plot points.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 09, 2014, 05:40:15 AM

I still do not understand why King's Landing has offered zero help to defend the wall. I even remember Tywin saying that an attack on the wall might be imminent. That was a number of episodes ago. So he's not ignorant about it, not too late, and not helpless either. He has an army. The Tyrells have an army. So what's the deal? Can anyone enlighten me? I don't think I missed anything that would explain this.



That's why I thought this episode was boring (yeah, I like giants, but I don't care about 50 minutes of giants and arrows and characters i don't care about), the show erased everything that was interesting about the Wall or this battle. Everything. I was just thinking "Oh, they have money. Good for them."; I think this is the best season of GoT yet, I wanted an episode of season 4 not the resolution of a storyline they should have dealt with in season 3.

I think the finale next week (who should be great, and I don't see how it won't be) will be clear about who cares about the Wall outside the "CROWS AND LOVE" universe of Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 09, 2014, 02:48:10 PM
- i HATE the samwell with chick and baby subplot. i love samwell by himself. i feel the only reason they continue the boring back and forth emotional tension between them only serves to build payoff when something kills them probaly.

I'm still in the middle of watching the episode, but I just had to point out that I sincerely hope Sam's "I promise you I won't die" was a deliberate Team America reference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: squints on June 10, 2014, 01:24:12 AM
I'm still in the middle of watching the episode, but I just had to point out that I sincerely hope Sam's "I promise you I won't die" was a deliberate Team America reference.

That's exactly the first thing i thought of too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yaTCXcvTGY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2014, 01:10:47 PM
Apparently the finale is 66 minutes.

Also, Benioff & Weiss are hyperbolically proud of the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 10, 2014, 02:22:15 PM
Submitted without comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4oQzTGTc_g
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 11, 2014, 06:21:47 AM
Spoilers 4x09

Just wanted to share this reaction to the ending of "The Mountain and the Viper" episode. Some context: guy on the left is familiar with the books, guy in the red shirt is the one that hypes GoT the most.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bEG0Ybj7v4
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2014, 12:58:15 AM
Well that certainly lived up to the hype. Easily one of the best episodes. Maybe the best episode in which no major protagonists shockingly die. (I count Tywin as an antagonist.)

Speaking of which. I once accidentally read this spoiler: "Tywin dies on the throne." Lawl. I was expecting him to become king eventually, but this... yes, I prefer this.

The episode was 65 minutes long, and I wanted at least another hour. When Arya's seafaring theme swelled, I was like noooo don't end! Just a marvelous experience.

------

I rewatched last week's episode, because it seemed eminently rewatchable, but for whatever reason it didn't age well. The action scenes held up, but not much else did. The dialogue was either badly written or badly acted or both, which on the first watch must have been completely obscured by generalized "new GoT" excitement. Jon Snow was still fine, but anything not understated — including Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon — seemed delivered in a shrill stage-like style. Very strange, but it's there.

I imagine certain other characters would suffer similarly upon rewatch, especially those with non-British accents, because those barely hold up sometimes on the initial watch. Thinking of Oberon's girlfriend (and maybe even Oberon himself?), and most of the supporting characters around Daenerys.

I wonder how much this is happening, really. The show's weakness, as I've always said (and which is kind of obvious), is how heavily it depends on shocking plot turns for its power. Last week's episode upon rewatch felt almost inert without that "anything can happen" feeling that we're all so addicted to now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2014, 01:09:36 AM
I forgot to congratulate myself on the Varys prediction. It was kind of a slam dunk though. You could almost see him winking at Tyrion during his testimony.

Also, it felt like he had to compete with Littlefinger yet again, who seemed to specialize in helping people escape.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 17, 2014, 12:05:06 AM
I quite liked the 9th episode, mostly because it finally delivered some much needed movement on the Wall. I think it might be partially because I like Neil Marshall and think he should be doing more movies. The show is not used to feeling that kinetic and it felt cartoonish in parts, but it needed some catharsis to deliver on all that buildup and tension, which it delivered.

As for the finale, "Safety? Where the fuck's that?" should be the show's new tagline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 17, 2014, 12:58:06 AM
I forgot to congratulate myself on the Varys prediction. It was kind of a slam dunk though. You could almost see him winking at Tyrion during his testimony.

Also, it felt like he had to compete with Littlefinger yet again, who seemed to specialize in helping people escape.

maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

ahem...anyway, I'm glad Tyrion lives but too bad Tywin had to go, he was a great character, not necessarily evil, he was just practical and did what had to be done.

Can't wait to see Tyrion's adventures with Varys, that should be sweet, it wasn't mentioned where they are going, was it?

so there's a vacuum of power at Kingslanding, I guess Cersei will rule but now she will have to worry about the debt to the Iron Bank...


the best part for me was Jon Snow with Mance and the arrival of Stannis.
I love when ppl recognize Ned's honor, again next season should be great seeing Melisandre, Stannis, Mance and Jon together.

this season the one that didn't do much was Khaleesi, she just took another city but we have seen that before...

I thought that coin Arya had was meant for the appearance of Jaqen, anyway she at Braavos will be great.

this episode only missed Sansa...


oh, Bran finally arrived at the tree, what the hell is he going to do now, at some point he has to deliver otherwise his story will be kind of useless, the same can be applied to Arya and Sansa and Dany's like JB mentioned awhile ago.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 17, 2014, 06:43:46 AM
ahem...anyway, I'm glad Tyrion lives but too bad Tywin had to go, he was a great character, not necessarily evil, he was just practical and did what had to be done.

I wonder if his role in "Going Postal" as Lord Vetinari had something to do with securing role as Tywin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CjutE9wffY

so there's a vacuum of power at Kingslanding, I guess Cersei will rule but now she will have to worry about the debt to the Iron Bank...

I'm not sure if Tyrells will let her reign for long. Only good news for her: wedding with Loras if probably off. Guess we will see more of Olenna and she proven capable of matching Tywin in plotting. Littlefiger has picked right horse again by allying himself with Tyrells. I'm not sure what this means for North: Frey is in trouble, what about Boltons?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 11:59:06 AM
Mel, I totally agree. Lannisters are down, Tyrells are up. Cersei should be easily outsmarted by them. Olenna certainly outmaneuvered Tywin a few times. Can Cersei really prevent her son's marriage? You'd think the Tyrells would eventually get explicit about the money they would withhold, etc.

Olenna for hand of the king! Jaime seems too obvious, right? Who else might it be?

Anyway... If they can find an excuse for Jaime to go on some kind of mission or adventure, the Lannister siblings will be split up across Westeros after the death of their father, just like the Starks. How beautiful would that be?

maybe Jaime and Varys team up...

ahem...

Okay yeah, I may have been first on that but you were definitely more accurate. I really thought Jaime helping would have been too obvious. Shouldn't he have been elsewhere specifically establishing an alibi, since he's going to be suspect number one? Surely Varys could have done that alone. Just give him the key.

Can't wait to see Tyrion's adventures with Varys, that should be sweet

Yeah. This show is amazing at creating great pairings. There have been so many. Apparently many of those are divergences from the books, too. They even did Tywin and Arya, which was completely new content.

this season the one that didn't do much was Khaleesi, she just took another city but we have seen that before...

Yeah, that's been problematic for me. She's kind of boring right now. Her story is now about how complicated it is to rule after you've conquered, and that's interesting, but only to an extent. Daenerys is just not that inspiring right now. Probably just one of those low points on her hero's journey, though.

oh, Bran finally arrived at the tree, what the hell is he going to do now, at some point he has to deliver otherwise his story will be kind of useless

I really liked that, actually. Tree nymph wizard literally blew my mind. This is the power of withholding the supernatural. When it finally arrives, it's amazing. (Lost certainly had that figured out.)

Oh I found this. I guess it's old but it's something I never followed up on. Title of the video is all you need to know:

Olenna Tyrell removes poison vial from Sansas necklace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2cFNECwSmg)

(Looks like embedding is disabled for that video.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 12:20:07 PM
Also this:

https://imgur.com/gallery/0EQr6
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 17, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/GY7YxbG.gif)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 05:40:47 PM
People are making a pretty bold prediction about Bran "flying." It sounds accurate, so stop reading if you don't want to know. Bran has not yet flown in the books, so this is not a book spoiler. So anyway, people are predicting that Bran will eventually "warg" with a dragon, as he does with Hodor or his wolf, presumably in connection with fighting the white walkers. Seems to me like that's in fact what's being set up: Daenerys and one or more of the Starks coming together to defeat the white walkers. Whether they also take King's Landing is up for grabs, because 2 visions (Daenerys's and Bran's I think) have shown the throne room snow-covered and abandoned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 17, 2014, 05:57:30 PM
The show eliminated what, I think, was amazing about the Tyrion breakdown...

It's not a spoiler - the show totally forgot this background - but if you don't want to know what is, let's say it's one.

SPOILERS

Tyrion had a wife before Sansa, called Tysha; he talks about it in season 1.

Wikipedia says:

Quote
Tyrion met Tysha on a lonely road, where she was being accosted by some men. Tyrion's brother, Jaime Lannister, drove off the men while Tyrion took care of her. She was a crofter's daughter, orphaned when her father died of an illness. Tyrion fell in love with her and married her, even though he was only thirteen years old.
When Lord Tywin Lannister found out, he had Jaime tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore who had been paid to make Tyrion a man. Tywin then had her passed around among his guards to have sex with her; for each guard, he gave her a silver. To drive the lesson home, Tywin forced his son to be the last man, for whom Tysha was paid a gold coin, because Lannisters were worth more.

When Jaime frees Tyrion, he says to him that Tysha wasn't a whore, that she truly loved Tyrion. Jaime lied. Tyrion is furious, he says to Jaime that Cersei, basically, is fucking everybody in King's Landing. It doesn't end with a hug...

Quote
During his escape, he came to his father's rooms. Tyrion demanded his father tell him what had happened to Tysha. Tywin did not remember, simply stating that she went "wherever whores go". Tyrion slew him with a crossbow and escaped.

GoT is often brutal, it loves its violence; here, they had emotional brutally and they avoided it with a hug and Jaime fucking Cersei. I often separate the books and the show, but I don't understand why they would avoid this important psychological development...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 06:42:03 PM
As a non book reader, I think I agree with that decision, actually. You summarized the story very well, and even that was emotionally affecting, but I still feel like it would have been such a break in the momentum, and such an obscure callback for this show that would require so much explanation. It sounds much better suited to the page.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Brando on June 17, 2014, 09:11:47 PM
Olenna for hand of the king! Jaime seems too obvious, right? Who else might it be?

A man with one hand serving as hand of the king is the kind of irony GoT loves. I don't think Jamie would want the position. The last three hands of the king have been murdered.

EDIT: The last 3 of the 4 hands of the king have been murdered while the fourth survived an assignation.

Cersei would never let a Tyrell in such an influential position. Cersei already mentioned her worry about the Tyrell's influence on her son. Olenna could easily outwit Cersei but Joffrey got his evilness from his mother. I wouldn't underestimate Cersei.

The king's council is in a sad state of affairs. A Tyrell fool, Cersei and that old fool are all that is left.

But the Lannister's are over. I see Stannis as a better challenge than the Tyrells. The Tyrells have no claim to the throne. Margaery still needs to wed the new king and give birth to an heir before the Tyrells could really challenge. Even if Margaery is able to marry and get pregnant we know the new king is not a Baratheon. Tywin's power and influence silenced any dissent to the legitimacy of the rightful heir but now that he's gone I'm sure people will be more willing to consider it.

The Tyrells are also really smart. They might see the writing on the wall and not want to align themselves with the falling Lannisters. The Lannister's mines are no longer producing. The Lannister's owe huge amounts of money to the iron bank. When talking about the iron bank, was the only time i saw Tywin intimidated.  But this is GoT and no one would give up a shot at the iron throne. Helping the Lannisters could put the Tyrells in a powerful position. Cersei on the other hand is type who would burn down her own house rather than give up any power.

Littlefiger has picked right horse again by allying himself with Tyrells. I'm not sure what this means for North: Frey is in trouble, what about Boltons?

I said after last season that Little Finger will end up ruling Westeros. He set the entire war in motion and continues to be two moves ahead of everyone. With Sansa at his side and his power over Robin, he now has a grasp on two of the seven kingdoms. 

I thought that coin Arya had was meant for the appearance of Jaqen, anyway she at Braavos will be great.

He told her to show the coin to any man from Braavos and say these words and that man will take her to Braavos. Or take her to see him. Braavos is also my guess to where Tyrion is heading. But it might not be a good guess cause he would be hiding out in the same place his family owes money. 

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
I like your train of thought there. Given the burden that the Lannisters are and will continue to be, wouldn't it be smartest for the Tyrells to simply welcome Stannis to King's Landing, and for Margaery to marry him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Brando on June 17, 2014, 09:56:39 PM
I like your train of thought there. Given the burden that the Lannisters are and will continue to be, wouldn't it be smartest for the Tyrells to simply welcome Stannis to King's Landing, and for Margaery to marry him?

Stannis has a wife. He is also the most stubborn, egotistical and imperious of all the ones after the throne. The Tyrells first backed Stannis' brother. They then backed the Lannisters. He probably sees them as traitors and wouldn't want to align with them. The only way he would do it is if the Red Woman told him to cause Margaery would finally give him an heir which his current wife hasn't done.

The Tyrells have done so much there is no way they pack up their shit and go home. The Lannisters are still their best shot at the throne. Tywin's death will resonate in the same way as Robert Baratheon's death did with multiple people grasping for power. The Tyrells are in the best position to grab it. So maybe this is the rise of the Tyrells. The Tyrells with the backing of the throne might be able to withstand the burden the Lannsiters.

The wild card is the Iron Bank. They've already put money backing Stannis so does that mean they're done with the Lannisters and the current king even if the Tyrells help out?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 17, 2014, 10:18:33 PM
No way would the Tyrells want Stannis. Tommen is easily manipulated, Stannis needed the hottest red witch in the world to turn. Margaery is no Melisandre.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 17, 2014, 10:33:21 PM
Good points. Let's throw out that theory then. I'm just wondering what I would do as a Tyrell right now. How exactly do they deal with Cersei, if threatening her financially isn't going to be enough? Didn't she just say she would burn the Lannister's house down to protect her son?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 18, 2014, 12:01:57 AM
Cersei is definitely onto Margaery's manipulation of Tommen, but she's losing her own grip on him. With Tywin out of the picture, Margaery has Tommen right where she wants him. Pubescent boners are a powerful thing.

I suppose a lot is riding on who becomes the new Hand. If it's a Tyrell, Cersei is fucked. I doubt Jaime will want it. Littlefinger and Varys have left the building. Pycelle looks like he's close to being out the door too, with Cersei favoring Maester Frankenstein. It's basically Cersei vs. the Tyrells now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 18, 2014, 01:07:31 AM
Margaery has Tommen right where she wants him. Pubescent boners are a powerful thing.

Their last scene was already weird enough, and you just had to put it like that. Gross. So how does the timing of the marriage work with him, do they have to find blood on his sheets?

I suppose a lot is riding on who becomes the new Hand. If it's a Tyrell, Cersei is fucked. I doubt Jaime will want it. Littlefinger and Varys have left the building. Pycelle looks like he's close to being out the door too, with Cersei favoring Maester Frankenstein. It's basically Cersei vs. the Tyrells now.

Yeah it's very strange. King's Landing is so empty right now, and I have no clue who has actual power over the various things. Much depends on Tommen — how manipulable he is, and by whom — and we've known him for about 6 minutes of screen time, so really, who knows.

What if Jaime actually steps up? It's conceivable. He's been looking at his literal page in that literal history book an awful lot lately.

Much of his dourness has been about his father trying to ship him off, while he wants to stay in King's Landing. So he could actually be into this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 18, 2014, 03:56:58 AM
Wonderful discussion, I'll skip quoting, since there is so much.

I don't see Tyrell and Stannis is same bed for so many reasons. First of all Littlefinger is part of equation. I think Stannis has different plan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c-ZxuWhhCw

It is very likely he will try to secure North first in my opinion. He takes his debts more seriously than anyone else - avenging Starks?

Olenna seems very pragmatic, didn't she say something like "Mace got us into this mess, now we need to play a ball. We should've stayed in Highgarden". She really cares for a good of family, compared to Tywin. I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrells step down, if this means safety for them. For the same reasons, I don't think Tyrells will make any hasty moves against Cersei, tolerating her as long as possible.

What about Martell or Ironborns? Daenerys will get some brake I think, since everyone else will be occupied with different things. Still I could be wrong there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 18, 2014, 11:55:12 AM
Martells are a wild card. Oberyn said the Prince was too ill to come to the wedding, which leads me to believe we'll meet him at some point. The Martells already hate the Lannisters, I'm sure Oberyn's death won't help that. Tywin was working on an alliance with them, which is most certainly out the window now.

My guess is that Stannis's next stop is Winterfell. Stannis vs. Roose is something I'd like to see. I thought it was an interesting detail that the Wildlings were just trying to get to safety and the Night's Watch was only in their way. Perhaps Mance joins forces with Stannis? Stannis seems pretty ignorant of the White Walker threat, that'll change his perspective on the Wall battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Brando on June 18, 2014, 03:26:01 PM
Perhaps Mance joins forces with Stannis? Stannis seems pretty ignorant of the White Walker threat, that'll change his perspective on the Wall battle.

Stannis might not have a choice with Mance. Mance has the biggest army by far of anyone in Westeros. Stannis will need them to fight the white walkers. If he leaves them north of the wall to die, that's 100,000 more white walkers to fight. And he has giants that ride mammoths. Do giants turn into white walkers when they die?

Mance is the only one that can control his army which puts him in a powerful position. Mance also doesn't kneel to any man. It'll have to be a partnership between Mance and Stannis. The threat of the white walkers is the only thing that could force these two men into a partnership.

The wall is still the best protection against the white walkers. Mance's army is more than enough to reinforce all of the nightwatch's empty castles.

My guess is that Stannis's next stop is Winterfell.

It is very likely he will try to secure North first in my opinion. He takes his debts more seriously than anyone else - avenging Starks?

The video posted by Mel is a great predictor of Stannis' next move. He went straight for the iron throne and got crushed at blackwater. He's changed his strategy to win the throne by saving Westeros. The biggest threat is the white walkers. I think Stannis stays in the north to prepare for battle with the white walkers. I think he'll either ask or force the houses of the north to help him.

What about Martell or Ironborns? Daenerys will get some brake I think, since everyone else will be occupied with different things. Still I could be wrong there.

Ironborns seem to be completely useless once on land and yet they seem to be obsessed with it. I don't see how they can really play an important role.

Daenerys is occupied herself. She's created a kingdom and now she has to rule it. Her dragon is going to cause problems. It be a great twist if she ends up fighting or killing her dragon that was supposed to win her the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if Daenerys stops her pursuit of the iron throne and continues to expand her new kingdom.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 18, 2014, 03:34:18 PM
Can't wait to see Tyrion's adventures with Varys, that should be sweet, it wasn't mentioned where they are going, was it?

I'll answer my own question. Jaime only mentions that there's a galley waiting at the bay bound for the free cities, doesn't says which one...


Great discussion guys.

The Lannisters.
I agree with JB that Jaime should be the one to step up in Kingslanding, Cersei is queen and will rule via Tommen but who are her true friends? The small council right now is tiny, she despises Pycell so he probably is out, that fool Tyrell is useless, Oberyn RIP, Tywin RIP, like Mel mentioned Varys and Littlepervert are out too, so it has to be Jaime who becomes hand, unless I'm forgetting someone there's no one else. Although she will be pretty pissed at Jaime for helping Tyrion escape...who murdered his dad in the process, the bright side of that is that now nobody wants that marriage.

Maybe Bolton is the one friend left for the Lannisters but I have a feeling that he won't go to Kingslanding, when he gave his name to Ramsey he made a point that the north was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined and now the north was his, so he definitely (maybe) will clash with Stannis.


What about Martell or Ironborns? Daenerys will get some brake I think, since everyone else will be occupied with different things. Still I could be wrong there.

Before Tywin's demise my theory was that the Martell's would go to avenge Oberyn, now I'm not sure although maybe they will want Cersei.

The Ironborns are fucked, I think Reek is going to off his dad or try to, if not, both Bolton or Stannis will see to that, right now they don't seem like a real threat, also Bolton mentioned that most of the Ironborn had fled the north and more will likely follow.

I think Daenerys journey to westeros is still far away.


My guess is that Stannis's next stop is Winterfell. Stannis vs. Roose is something I'd like to see. I thought it was an interesting detail that the Wildlings were just trying to get to safety and the Night's Watch was only in their way. Perhaps Mance joins forces with Stannis? Stannis seems pretty ignorant of the White Walker threat, that'll change his perspective on the Wall battle.

Agree, Stannis could form an alliance with the wildings and battle Bolton to secure the north, there are so many possibilities here. Sometimes this part of the story seemed dull, now could be one of the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: picolas on June 18, 2014, 09:47:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZZ0wVjNQW8
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Mel on June 22, 2014, 09:30:21 AM
Maybe Bolton is the one friend left for the Lannisters but I have a feeling that he won't go to Kingslanding, when he gave his name to Ramsey he made a point that the north was bigger than the other six kingdoms combined and now the north was his, so he definitely (maybe) will clash with Stannis.

I don't think Roose Bolton is anyone's friend. He just made a deal with Tywin: head of Stark for the North. He probably would still support Starks if Robb was listening to his advises, but that didn't happen and chance of winning the war was more unlikely with every day passing by.

I asked about Frey, since I see this couldn't be next endeavor of Littlefinger. Petyr isn't a POV character in the books, but he had so far huge impact on current political situation. I don't see him sitting idle in the Vale without conspiring. He was risen by Tullies, was love with one Tully, married another. Revenge aspect in going after Frey is there. He is also Lord of Harrenhal, he has brains, some money, allies, but he lacks an army - something that Cersei pointed out at one time. Is thinking that he could convince Robin to go after Frey in the name of saving uncle or so far fetched?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: MacGuffin on July 16, 2014, 07:46:41 AM
Game of Thrones’ season 5 directors chosen
by EW

Who will command the Game of Thrones production army next season?

There are five directors, each charged with helming two episodes each in season 5. Back in the mix this year: David Nutter, who directed the incredible “The Rains of Castamere” episode (aka The Red Wedding) in season 3. Nutter returns to helm next year’s ever-crucial ninth episode and the season 5 finale.

Absent from the list this round: Alex Graves, who directed four episodes last season, and Neil Marshall, who scored an Emmy nomination last week for his work on the ninth episode of season 4, “The Watchers on The Wall” (aka The Battle of Castle Black). Also taking a break this season are showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss, who previously directed an episode each. In fact, aside from Nutter, all the directors next season are new to the show. Below is the list of Thrones directors for season 5, exclusively on EW.com:

Episodes 501 and 502: Michael Slovis (episodes of AMC’s Breaking Bad, NBC’s Law & Order: SVU)
Episodes 503 and 504: Mark Mylod (episodes of Showtime’s Shameless and HBO’s Entourage)
Episodes 505 and 506: Jeremy Podeswa (episodes of HBO’s Boardwalk Empire and Showtime’s The Tudors)
Episodes 507 and 508: Miguel Sapochnik (episodes of Fox’s House and Fringe)
Episodes 509 and 510: David Nutter (known as “the pilot whisperer” for his track record in getting pilots picked up to series; Nutter directed four epiosdes of Thrones, plus many other shows)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on July 25, 2014, 05:40:44 PM
hahaha aww man. how incredibly heartwarming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-7Fs9HJvs0
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on January 30, 2015, 12:52:15 PM
There's a leaked trailer from the IMAX showings, obviously its quality is shitty, BUT for the purists I'll advice to not watch it, it seems too spoilerful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XBzwQpbbU
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on January 30, 2015, 03:50:50 PM
There's a leaked trailer from the IMAX showings, obviously its quality is shitty, BUT for the purists I'll advice to not watch it, it seems too spoilerful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XBzwQpbbU

That's the most disturbing version of David Bowie's "Heroes" I've ever heard, and I've seen Moulin Rouge.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2015, 05:07:42 PM
How did people like the premiere?

I thought it was a very good table-setting episode. I'm most excited about Tyrion and Varys meeting up with Daenerys. That can't be anything but satisfying. It also sort of tips their hand in terms of where things are going on a macro level. We have two out of three heroes meeting up (Tyrion and Daenerys), leaving only the third, Jon Snow, who should also have an interest in Daenerys's success.

DEEP SPECULATION AND POSSIBLE BOOK SPOILERS, HONESTLY NOT SURE

This hasn't happened in the books from what I understand, but a Jon Snow / Daenerys / Tyrion triad is probably the most likely setup for the climax of this whole story. This is supported by the fact that Jon Snow and Tyrion are very likely both half Targaryen, via Tyrion's real father, and Jon's actual parentage (which is complicated). There are fan theories for both, supported by pretty convincing evidence. The chosen ones are always half-breeds, aren't they?

What's more, they might be directly related. I find it pretty clever that in the beginning we thought this story was about the Stark family, but it might end up being about the Targaryen family.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 14, 2015, 06:17:47 PM
How did people like the premiere?

I thought it was a very good table-setting episode. I'm most excited about Tyrion and Varys meeting up with Daenerys.

Just to clarify, haven't read books 3-4-5 so everything I say is a supposition.

agree, that meeting should be sweet but I have a feeling that won't happen this season (if ever), if in fact that happens I wonder how well received they would be, given that Varys tipped off Robert Baratheon via Jora Mormont about her pregnancy and that it was the child of Drogo, maybe they don't know that much.

on the other hand, both of them can provide a lot of insight about the status who's who in Kingslanding.

Last season the one thing that bothered me was that NO ONE questioned who killed Joffrey, everyone except Cersei knew he didn't do it but never cared to find out who, I wonder if Varys ever suspected Baelish, if soomeone doesnt' trust that guy is him, but we never saw a single conversation about it...


That can't be anything but satisfying. It also sort of tips their hand in terms of where things are going on a macro level. We have two out of three heroes meeting up (Tyrion and Daenerys), leaving only the third, Jon Snow, who should also have an interest in Daenerys's success.

Just three heroes? You are leaving out Arya and even Sansa.

I have no clue what would be the end game for Arya, right now she will be at Braavos and I guess at some point she will meet again with Jaqen and then? is she going to be faceless? if so, she has to go back and avenge all that did her wrong. This journey of Arya better pays off at some point or else I will feel cheated.

And Sansa, right now that's also a big question mark for me, Baelish is ''protecting'' her and all but that creep is the detonator for pretty much everything that has happened, did Tyrion never told her that he betrayed his father? and now with aunt Lysa death will she connect the dots at some point? I thought that she being death meant nobody would ever know what he did, but I saw again that episode where she wants to push Sansa through the moon door and she tells her: ''My father, my husband, my sister, they all stood between us and now they're all death'', so she has to connect the dots right? I think she's already playing him but to what end?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 14, 2015, 07:59:00 PM
I forgot to mention, it's argued in the Rotten Tomatoes podcast recap that Mance Rayder actually made the correct pragmatic decision by not "bending the knee." Highly recommend listening to that.

I don't count Arya or Sansa as heroes in the way that Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion are. They have a sense of honor and nobility that Arya and Sansa haven't developed or simply don't possess.

Arya is a wildcard and a bit of a scoundrel. Certainly she has her list, but any sense of justice therein is kind of spoiled by her taste for blood.

Sansa has long been one of my favorite characters, and I get the sense that she's a better character in the show than she is in the books. (And the reverse may be true for Arya.) But as she's grown up, she has gone from trauma to peril to more peril to (basically) a permanent state of peril. She is in adaptation mode. Her origin story includes the loss of honor (and her wolf along with it, symbolically), and now under Littlefinger's wing she is learning to cloak and deceive. Sansa seems compromised for the time being. I would welcome a heroic turn, but I don't see her being central in the way Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon surely will be.

I think the character I actually left out is Bran. I'm not sure he'll be a fully rich heroic character, but he's certainly going to warg him some dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 10:55:31 AM
So, I don't know, I feel less confident about my theory today. Anytime something feels fated to happen, it's subverted. That is probably the major problem with the series. Endless subversion gets tiresome. Endless suffering gets tiresome. If at least a few of these threads do not come to fruition in a marginally positive way, the whole thing will have been profoundly unsatisfying. At a certain point, characters need to stop being stomped on and start doing something that resembles fulfilling destiny, or what sense of gravitas will even be left? For example, if Daenerys does not conquer Westeros or at least defeat the white walkers with her dragons, what was the point of her character?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 01:05:04 PM
NONSPECIFIC SEMI-SPOILER FOR THIS SEASON

I just read a show spoiler for something that is not in the books but almost certainly will be in the show, that I am definitely not okay with and will probably turn lots of people against the show. I frankly can't see any good reason for it, and it goes too far in exactly the way I was dreading. How the show will recover from it, I honestly have no idea. Anyway, enjoy the season!

If you really want to read this spoiler, you can do so here (https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/32kmri/spoilers_all_sansa_in_season_5/), and we can discuss it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on April 15, 2015, 01:27:13 PM
that actually is in the books, but it's a different character. and i agree, i don't think they should do it, but according to the trailer, it looks like they will in some form or another.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 15, 2015, 01:35:18 PM
For it to be THIS character is beyond ridiculous. Especially now. I'm too angry right now to even elaborate. It's just self-evident that this is a bad idea, and I can't imagine how it could ever be justified as a storytelling decision.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 15, 2015, 01:52:58 PM
haven't read that spoiler but now I'm nervous...

So, I don't know, I feel less confident about my theory today. Anytime something feels fated to happen, it's subverted. That is probably the major problem with the series. Endless subversion gets tiresome. Endless suffering gets tiresome. If at least a few of these threads do not come to fruition in a marginally positive way, the whole thing will have been profoundly unsatisfying. At a certain point, characters need to stop being stomped on and start doing something that resembles fulfilling destiny, or what sense of gravitas will even be left? For example, if Daenerys does not conquer Westeros or at least defeat the white walkers with her dragons, what was the point of her character?

Completely agree, and as I've said I feel the same about Arya, her ambitions are not as grand as Daenerys but the road she is taking seems to lead to a big pay off.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on April 15, 2015, 01:54:38 PM
POSSIBLE VAGUE SPOILERS FOR THIS SEASON

i agree totally. the only thing i can come up with is that they want to keep their shock status and they want a new red weddingesque episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on April 28, 2015, 12:24:45 AM
SPOILS S05E03.

Good episode.

Jon
that was a great chat between Jon and Davos and Stannis for that matter, I wonder if what Davos said to him will have an impact of sorts in the future, it feels like it will but with this show who the hell knows...


Sansa
can't believe I'm saying this but right now being with little finger no longer seems that awful, that marriage cant happen right? something or someone should prevent that...

Little Finger vs Bolton
now that's a match of deceivers, probably one of them wont get out alive.

Tyrion
and we were looking forward to his adventures with Varys and even thinking about (if for a brief moment) the meeting with Daenerys, read some ppl have doubts which queen Jorah is referring but to me it's clear he means Cersei.

Brienne
that was a great story, being saved by Renly, and I liked that pod puts the good word for Tyrion, being the only really good Lannister, although Jaime has redeemed himself IMO.

Margaery vs Cersei
I think Margaery is playing with fire, no way Cersei will just stand by while she steals his cub and mocks her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 17, 2015, 10:14:26 PM
is no one ever gonna comment here???

SPOILS S05E06

ok, that one really hurt.

it was brutal, Sansa cant catch a break.
until the very last moment thought something had to happen, and it did , the most horrible thing, I have the worst feeling about her, and little finger , wtf is he doing?


meanwhile, at kingslanding...the Tyrells vs Cersei war is on, cant imagine Lady Oleanna wiil just sit this one out, Cersei is probablu making a huge mistake...maybe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2015, 01:09:10 AM
Yep. This is the predicted scene that I was dreading. My thoughts still apply:

I just read a show spoiler for something that is not in the books but almost certainly will be in the show, that I am definitely not okay with and will probably turn lots of people against the show. I frankly can't see any good reason for it, and it goes too far in exactly the way I was dreading. How the show will recover from it, I honestly have no idea. Anyway, enjoy the season!

For it to be THIS character is beyond ridiculous. Especially now. I'm too angry right now to even elaborate. It's just self-evident that this is a bad idea, and I can't imagine how it could ever be justified as a storytelling decision.

I have to say, the showrunners seem to be quite enamored of rape. They have now given us 3 big ol' juicy rapes that were not in the books: the rape of Daenerys, the rape of Cersei, and now the rape of Sansa. Two is a pattern, and it was talked about at the time, but three is an obsession.

In the books, the consummation of Daenerys's marriage (in her POV chapter) was written as a romantic scene, consensual, and even briefly erotic (and to be clear, erotic for her, since it is literally from her point of view), adorned with flowery language, and set near a peaceful forest stream if I remember correctly. (And I think I do remember, because of how awkward it was to hear the stilted British audiobook narrator say "her wetness.") In the TV show, they decided Daenerys should be raped instead, on a dark wind-swept cliff. They decided that instead of starting the love story before the marriage, they should try to have it after she's raped, when she learns to accept things and transform her sexual servitude into pseudo-consent. (Turn that rape upside-down, girl!) I suppose it was supposed to develop her character, except this departure only had ill effects on the storytelling. It ended up scrambling this character (Daenerys) into a sufferer of stockholm syndrome, a woman who against all odds fell in love with her rapist (a truly inspiring tale for wives in arranged marriages, one could argue). Anytime thereafter when she said "my sun and stars," fondly recalling her true love Khal Drogo, we could only be quietly baffled by the disconnect.

Likewise, Jaime and Cersei's sex scene next to their son's corpse was changed from consensual to, at the very least, a rapey grey area. Cersei's actual spoken dialogue from the book version is not just consensual, she commands it: "'Hurry,' she was whispering now, 'quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.'" In the show, we were given something significantly more ambiguous, which reintroduces that theme from TV Daenerys: non-consent becoming consent. It was more shocking with rape, so how could they resist?

And that's the problem with Sansa's rape. It feels like it's a piece on the board, moved to the square that says "big shocking scene that everyone will be talking about." But moreover, they wanted a new Red Wedding type scene that book readers could be shocked by too. This rape happens to a different character in the books, and it's much more gruesome. So they get to have it all ways, really: shock the newbies, and shock the book readers perhaps even more, since they carry the memories of the book scene. Have they damaged Sansa's character far worse than they damaged Daenerys? Quite possibly. Good luck recovering from this one, Game of Thrones. You've crossed a line.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 18, 2015, 11:37:29 PM
agree.

making something shocking for the sake of it is not how this show should be.

and I don't mind changes of some events that don't exist in the book, as long as the main characters stay on the path of the book.

like the relationship of Arya and Tywin, that was a great addition that never happens in the book, in fact Tywin as a character didn't do much in the first two books, that great scene of him and Jaime when he lectures him about the legacy of his family name from the first season also never happened.


so, knowing this shit that happened to Sansa never happened has made me consider to read her entire story, if the season ends and she still is Ramsey's new play toy, I will spoil myself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 19, 2015, 12:38:15 AM
If we're talking predictions, I think Sansa will be rescued quite soon. She has Brienne, all the random northerners, and Theon on her side.

Then, inevitably, the writers will use Sansa's rape as her character motivation going forward. What a shame it would be, and what a waste, turning Sansa, who was becoming quite complex and sort of great, into a one-dimensional character. Movies and TV are already so littered with the "rape as motivation" trope in its various forms (rape as motivation for revenge, rape as character-defining backstory, etc.). They almost can't avoid this route with Sansa now.

Also, logistically, they may not have the screen time to properly deal with Sansa's trauma, even if they possess that capability. I would give them the benefit of the doubt here, but they haven't exactly established credibility in this department.

. . .

Side note: How dumb and awkward was that entire confrontation scene in Dorne? It actually looked like the actors were hanging out in costumes rehearsing an alternate version. All three groups happened to converge on Myrcella at the same time?

Since one of the viper ladies had her blade to Myrcella's throat, why didn't she just kill her as the guards converged on them? Or hold her hostage with, you know, the blade to her throat?

Okay Myrcella, we were totally going to abduct you and then maybe kill you or whatever, but now seeing that there's a battle going on and this is definitely our very last chance to off you, we're actually going to just kind of grab you and pull you over here and hold you for a sec. Then, I dunno, maybe we'll escape with you, or maybe you'll be saved. Either way, we just do what we do. #YOLO

(Or did I miss something?)

And why, seeing that attempted abduction, did Jaime just stand in place and keep fighting?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 19, 2015, 01:38:59 AM
Side note: How dumb and awkward was that entire confrontation scene in Dorne? It actually looked like the actors were hanging out in costumes rehearsing an alternate version. All three groups happened to converge on Myrcella at the same time?

Since one of the viper ladies had her blade to Myrcella's throat, why didn't she just kill her as the guards converged on them? Or hold her hostage with, you know, the blade to her throat?

Okay Myrcella, we were totally going to abduct you and then maybe kill you or whatever, but now seeing that there's a battle going on and this is definitely our very last chance to off you, we're actually going to just kind of grab you and pull you over here and hold you for a sec. Then, I dunno, maybe we'll escape with you, or maybe you'll be saved. Either way, we just do what we do. #YOLO

(Or did I miss something?)

And why, seeing that attempted abduction, did Jaime just stand in place and keep fighting?

The scenes in Dorne all feel like a higher-budget episode of Xena: Warrior Princess.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 19, 2015, 10:30:01 PM
You mean you guys didn't think they needed another scene to show how horrible Ramsey is?  Feel like there hasn't been much of that in the series...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on May 19, 2015, 11:55:27 PM
that scene was not very shocking or iconic of the series, i feel like media is trying to make it that.



spoilers had they included the dogs howeverend spoilers
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 20, 2015, 01:49:42 AM
It is being blown wildly out of proportion, yes. Sensitivity is one thing, a crucial thing even, but when you start to separate out segments of the human experience and award them protected class status, you're doing a disservice to both the breadth of human experience and to the art of storytelling. At the very, very, VERY least, give the show a chance to get where it's going with it before deciding it crossed some uncrossable line.

The fact that so many people are using the "it wasn't in the books" line of attack is particularly telling. The implication being that if it were a minor side character in the same situation (as in the books), it would be more acceptable.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 20, 2015, 11:04:23 AM
The fact that so many people are using the "it wasn't in the books" line of attack is particularly telling. The implication being that if it were a minor side character in the same situation (as in the books), it would be more acceptable.

Except it absolutely would be.

I don't object to rape being used in the story. I don't object to emotionally horrifying or crazy gruesome scenes. The Red Wedding and Oberyn's death both basically delighted me. What I object to is that the TV show has decided that most of the principal female players must experience rape to more fully develop their characters.

It's becoming a distasteful storytelling shortcut, and applying it to Sansa seems egregious at this point. It feels especially gross with her because she is a really convenient candidate for a shocking storyline. The audience has a special emotional attachment to her, and she has already suffered so much, such that grinding her even further into the dirt and inflicting even deeper trauma has a particular impact that's just too hard to resist.

What has been equally problematic is what comes after the rapes. Daenerys falls in love. Cersei and Jaime continue as if it didn't happen. Sansa will, I don't know, be rescued? Continue to make incongruously moronic decisions and be swept wherever the plot finds her useful? These stories are different in the books for a reason; they actually make sense. I bring up the book version not because I have any attachment, but because at least GRRM knew how to tell a coherent story.

I will hold out hope that the show can salvage this character, but here's the thing. Certain things have to be done to get her back on track in the larger narrative. As that re-convergence eventually happens, her motivation, her agency, and arguably the soul of her character will have already been replaced with whatever she gets out of this dumb rape story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2015, 11:42:34 PM
(http://xixax.com/jb/sansa.jpg)


"He already hurts me every night. All day I'm locked in this room, and every night he comes. It can't be any worse."

"It can. It can always be worse."

^ Also an apt description of the show's handling of Sansa's story.

Last week, worst case scenario, I imagined that Sansa would escape this week, or that at least some measure of revenge would be carried out. But they decided to prolong and intensify Sansa's suffering. Imprisoned by day, beaten and raped every night. (The bruises were a nice touch.)

This is probably even more distasteful than last week. But I understand, Sansa is such a ripe target for twisting the audience's emotions, how could you not take advantage of that?

And to what possible end?

- To expand on Sansa's sufferingness? That's been a feature of her character so long, and it's now flooding out every other aspect of her to the extent that she's becoming a joke.

- To convince us just how evil Ramsay is? It goes without saying, that task was accomplished long ago. Everything he does now feels redundant. He's also becoming a joke.

- We get some kind of brutally righteous vengeance, made more satisfying by the duration and intensity of Sansa's suffering. Okay, I guess revenge is fun, but sacrificing Sansa's character doesn't seem worth it.

- Sansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

I literally cannot think of a way this can be redeemed. I think I'm pretty much numb to it now, though. I've stopped caring about Sansa's character. Part of me wants to just wait until this idiocy is over, consider it non-canon, and pretend Sansa is picking up where she left off.

. . .

The rest of the episode was quite good. Tyrion meeting Daenerys was the most thrilling moment for me; I can't think of a more interesting or satisfying way for them to meet. This is the storyline where I need to know what happens next ASAP.

Cersei's imprisonment was great of course too, watching that dread slowly come over her. The way it then played out was laughably unrealistic, but dramatic nonetheless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2015, 11:14:32 PM
Last week, worst case scenario, I imagined that Sansa would escape this week, or that at least some measure of revenge would be carried out. But they decided to prolong and intensify Sansa's suffering. Imprisoned by day, beaten and raped every night. (The bruises were a nice touch.)

Never crossed my mind that Sansa would get something positive this soon, she's Ramsey's new play thing and he won't let go, however, you did notice that she took something with her right? I didn't see what it was but I think it sounded like a little piece of metal, I think that could be used before this season ends, on Ramsey I hope…

here:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/fbv/metal_zpsex74tigy.png)

One minor positive thing happened when Ramsey (accidentally?) told her that Jon was now the lord commander, I saw in her face a little hope, which was then crushed when she saw the old lady flayed.

This is probably even more distasteful than last week. But I understand, Sansa is such a ripe target for twisting the audience's emotions, how could you not take advantage of that?

And to what possible end?

- To expand on Sansa's sufferingness? That's been a feature of her character so long, and it's now flooding out every other aspect of her to the extent that she's becoming a joke.

- To convince us just how evil Ramsay is? It goes without saying, that task was accomplished long ago. Everything he does now feels redundant. He's also becoming a joke.

- We get some kind of brutally righteous vengeance, made more satisfying by the duration and intensity of Sansa's suffering. Okay, I guess revenge is fun, but sacrificing Sansa's character doesn't seem worth it.

- Sansa slogs through this continuing trauma and eventually ends up empowered on the other side. And she owes her self-empowerment to surviving and overcoming rape. From a storytelling perspective, this could actually be the worst result, and the one I feared when this whole disaster began.

I literally cannot think of a way this can be redeemed. I think I'm pretty much numb to it now, though. I've stopped caring about Sansa's character. Part of me wants to just wait until this idiocy is over, consider it non-canon, and pretend Sansa is picking up where she left off.

Since this isn't even in the books I guess we will eventually see Sana's revenge in a way (and that pay off should be huge), but will it be in this season? And, like you well put, will her suffering serve the story in a satisfying way? This is why if her ordeal continuous I'll give in and read her story in the books.

Now, will reek grow some balls and help Sansa? that doesn't seem likely does it? and her candle signal is fucked, so even if she or reek could go to the tower Ramsey knows about it, but...given the kind of psycho Ramsey is maybe he will lit it himself just for fun and Brienne will come to the rescue which could be her downfall or his, also let's not forget that if she sees Stannis banners that can too come in play..and all three parties involved will clash. So many possibilities there.


The rest of the episode was quite good. Tyrion meeting Daenerys was the most thrilling moment for me; I can't think of a more interesting or satisfying way for them to meet. This is the storyline where I need to know what happens next ASAP.

Best episode of the season so far, that's a meeting didn't think would happen so soon, I'm glad, next week should be sweet.


Cersei's imprisonment was great of course too, watching that dread slowly come over her. The way it then played out was laughably unrealistic, but dramatic nonetheless.

agree, first, why wasn't she guarded? even in the castle she's guarded! although I'm realizing that they don't aloud guards in there, nevertheless, she should had seen that coming, but she's so blinded by her "power" that she fell into her own trap.

If this doesn't get Tommen to take action nothing will, but he has no good counselors, only Maester Pycelle and Qyburn...


Littlefinger again with his games, that young man he mentions to Lady Oleanna is Lancel? does he intend to incarcerate her too?


also great that scene of Bronn with the Sand snakes, I thought he was done but then that girl saved him, which is kind of odd, does she has a real thing for him?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 26, 2015, 05:32:18 PM
Never crossed my mind that Sansa would get something positive this soon, she's Ramsey's new play thing and he won't let go

I can't shake the feeling that Sansa is also the producers' plaything. This anecdote doesn't help:

Quote
Last season [Thrones director] Alex Graves decided to give me hints. He was saying, “You get a love interest next season.” And I was all, “I actually get a love interest!” So I get the scripts and I was so excited and I was flicking through and then I was like, “Aw, are you kidding me!?”
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-wedding

This is the most obvious excessive overkill story the series has ever done. When you combine that kind of hamfistedness with the tastelessness and special rapeyness that the show has earned a reputation for, the whole storyline is just gross and boring.

I didn't even mention the attempted rape of Gilly, which, I found out, is yet another show creation not from the books. We need some intensity in this scene... why not rape? We're missing a character motivation here. Hmm you know what, rape will do.

I'm imagining there's one guy on the writer's staff who always chimes in "what if she gets raped?" whenever they discuss a female character. They usually ignore him, but in the end they have to let a certain number of rapes through (because of the union).

Side note: I am definitely enjoying the egg on the face of those who were saying last week, "But really, is it rape? They're married. She had to expect something like that." Oh really, does the average Westeros wedding night begin with blood-curdling screams? Idiots.


however, you did notice that she took something with her right? I didn't see what it was but I think it sounded like a little piece of metal, I think that could be used before this season ends, on Ramsey I hope…

Yeah I hope so, but it seems just as likely that she'll be caught with it. As you said, it seems like they're orchestrating a convergence between Stannis, Bolton, Brienne, and Sansa, all at Winterfell. So yes, if you read those signs, Sansa's torture could continue until the penultimate episode of the season (traditionally the battle episode). An escape before then would be vastly more interesting, but I'm not counting on it. Their choice here could actually be a good litmus test for whether the show has gotten lost in its own formula.

Either way, the Sansa story is such transparently manipulative garbage that I find myself taken out of it and don't have much emotionally invested in it anymore. I doubt the producers were going for numbness or rejection, but that's what they've achieved.


agree, first, why wasn't she guarded? even in the castle she's guarded! although I'm realizing that they don't aloud guards in there, nevertheless, she should had seen that coming, but she's so blinded by her "power" that she fell into her own trap.

What seemed weird to me was that their reveal was so choreographed and theatrical (complete with key figures stepping out of the shadows on cue), as if playing for some audience beyond Cersei. After she's dragged away I imagine them all high-fiving and congratulating each other on a great performance. It was still fun, though. Not complaining.

I really couldn't guess how this plot will be resolved, so it's pretty exciting. As Cersei said, if Tommen sends the army against the Faith Militant, they could execute the prisoners immediately, or at least hold them hostage.

Oh actually, here's my prediction... Petyr Baelish: hostage negotiator.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 27, 2015, 12:25:41 AM
I really couldn't guess how this plot will be resolved, so it's pretty exciting. As Cersei said, if Tommen sends the army against the Faith Militant, they could execute the prisoners immediately, or at least hold them hostage.

Oh actually, here's my prediction... Petyr Baelish: hostage negotiator.

I thought that too, but given that Littlefinger owns a brothel, if he negotiates wouldn't he be too walking into a trap? why would the Septon give him a pass? IIRC Littlefinger even provided Loras a few season ago Olyvar who later betrayed him causing his and her sister their imprisonment...

yet, I can see Baelish being involved somehow but without getting too close to the sun; or maybe Tommen reaches out Lady Oleanna?


what do you think of this?
Littlefinger again with his games, that young man he mentions to Lady Oleanna is Lancel? does he intend to incarcerate her too?

he says to her and I quote: "I have a gift for you, the same kind of gift I gave Cersei, a handsome young man"
who if not Lancel is Littlefinger talking about? or is it Olyver? either way, what could she get out of them? and all this apparently happened before Cersei was caught...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 27, 2015, 12:41:58 AM
I was joking about the hostage negotiator thing, but yeah I think Littlefinger has to be involved in Margaery's release at the very least.

The Lancel part utterly confuses me. Littlefinger can't be talking about Lancel, right, because Lancel's return was a while ago? How would Littlefinger have any direct influence over Lancel at this point?

I do think Littlefinger is entirely on the Tyrells' side right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 01, 2015, 01:09:42 PM
I don't even care about this show anymore so can someone tell me what was so amazing about last nights episode that no one else will spoil for me?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 01, 2015, 01:12:39 PM
You should watch that episode. Or just the last twenty minutes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2015, 01:35:19 PM
03, you should watch the whole episode, if you don't want to watch the last 30 minutes, but really, watch it all.



SPOILS S05E08

great episode.

Jon Snow
so, not only dragon glass kills white walkers but valyrian steel too...

these guys are getting really good at battles, everything looked great, the giant, the WW, etc.


Sansa
well at least she now knows reek didn't kill her brothers, one good thing has happened.


Bolton
I know that predicting is almost pointless but I fear Stannis will be defeated by these assholes...or will have to use her daughter, Ramsey's plan to get to Stannis with only 20 men sounds daring but my feeling is that he will infiltrate his troops and try to get to him.


Arya
right now I don't really understand her story, I read somewhere that by the last episode everything will make more sense, she was by far one my fave characters but her last episodes have been a little dull.

Daenerys & Tyrion
it's so good to see those two together, Tyrion seems like a great adviser, I hope Varys enters the picture again with those two, he has to right? Tyrion already vouched for him.

poor Jorah had to go again, what will he gain by fighting for her? a second chance to be with her? because serving that guy seems pointless, although he's sick so maybe he doesn't give a shit anymore.

Cersei
it's crazy but I want Cersei to have her revenge, she's evil and dumb but I want her to succeed on this one, how the hell will she get out?

remember back in the first episode Qyburn had ''something'' at his table, I believe that is the mountain, will he use him for her rescue?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2015, 02:08:19 PM
To answer that question, we got a significant amount of explicit white walker action. Basically more than anyone ever expected to get this early. It's good.

It came so out of left field that I need to re-watch it for a fair assessment. Coming where it does in this season, it felt like supernatural overload. I'm not complaining... I just don't think I've properly processed it yet.

The spellcasting scene at the end of "The Children" (where one of the titular children started zapping/exploding a bunch of walkers) had an entirely different effect on me. It blew my mind and made me more excited than any other supernatural scene in the entire series. It was similarly out of left field, but it was so well-done (the sound design was masterful), and more important, tightly-packed and brief. It truly felt like supernatural things suddenly happening in a real world.

In the setpiece last night, it was something we had sort of seen before, but in a far more terrifying context, where the walkers posed an actual immediate threat to a bunch of important characters. The effect was dread and anxiety and a bit of hopelessness, like how are they ever going to overcome this enemy?

That (rather than the actual battling) was the strength of it, and I'm glad they ended on that note. The moment where Jon Snow, terrified, met eyes with the white walker across the water, was classic.

I have mixed feelings about the rest of the episode. I was so looking forward to the Tyrion/Daenerys matchup, but I can't help but feel like it landed with a thud. I mean, I guess it's completely realistic that Tyrion's speaking gets hyper-formal and awkward, but unfortunately I think it sheds a stark light on Peter Dinklage's terrible accent. It was pretty bad last night. Also the first interaction didn't feel particularly true to his character (perhaps because they're beyond the books here). Things improved significantly in their one-on-one meeting... I was so relieved when Tyrion finally made a joke, and Daenerys dealt with him in a way that made sense. I can't wait until they get more comfortable with each other and Tyrion can move past his stilted talk for good, because theirs could be one of the best duos. Maybe they need to bond during a road trip.

Jorah's life choices have seriously begun to annoy me, but at the same time his character is becoming more interesting with each episode. Anyway I wonder if dragon blood cures greyscale or something like that. Another hand-amputation would be redundant.

Arya
right now I don't really understand her story, I read somewhere that by the last episode everything will make more sense, she was by far one my fave characters but her last episodes have been a little dull.

From what I understand, Arya is sort of auditioning as an imposter, trying it out without actually using someone else's face yet. The point, as per the two-faced god, seems to be to bring justice in one way or another. That's why Arya is so excited about this, being really into revenge and whatnot.

Cersei
it's crazy but I want Cersei to have her revenge, she's evil and dumb but I want her to succeed on this one, how the hell will she get out?

remember back in the first episode Qyburn had ''something'' at his table, I believe that is the mountain, will he use him for her rescue?

I like that prediction. I just hope it's different enough from Frankenstein's monster.

Surely Qyburn can pull off something else, like gassing that whole place. Isn't he into chemical weapons?

I would still like Baelish to be involved in the resolution, which could very well end with Cersei being out of power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 02, 2015, 10:29:43 PM
even if Cersei gets out and has her revenge with that nun, I can't forget what the witch said to her in that flashback, basically she said she would lose all...


saw again the battle and just remembered that the thing I feared most was that the walkers wouldn't get to the giant, can you imagine a giant white walker? he would end all, they'd probably need a catapult full of dragon glass to beat that thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 08, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
Wow, that final scene  :bravo:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 08, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
That was definitely the best episode of the season so far. I really feel like I'm back on board.

When Daenerys and friends were surrounded, I literally said out loud excitedly: "Dragons! Dragons!" Then, push in and she closes her eyes. Epic scene.

In a lesser show, they would have added ADR of someone saying "where are your dragons?!?" offscreen. But here, they linger on this impossible situation just long enough to prompt you to run through the list of possible solutions, until you land on dragons, and then they give you the payoff. Good stuff.

The burning of Shireen is a great example of character horror done right in the show. It's a difficult storytelling choice that has meaningful implications for everyone, none more than Stannis, who has never been so interesting.

This also means that Shireen managed to go her entire life without being raped or even threatened with rape. And she somehow turned out to be a fully-developed character anyway. Well done, showrunners.

Daenerys taking off on her dragon and leaving her team behind is an interesting thing. I wonder what other people think about that. Is she escaping the city for good? Is she expecting them to catch up with her? How many unsullied are still alive? What kind of army will she even have going forward?

So many questions, and so much to be resolved. If they leave Sansa locked in her rape room over the break, I will be very disappointed. This finale needs to be 3 hours long.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 11, 2015, 01:04:22 AM
When Daenerys and friends were surrounded, I literally said out loud excitedly: "Dragons! Dragons!" Then, push in and she closes her eyes. Epic scene.

I yelled the same thing except I said: Drogon!

In a lesser show, they would have added ADR of someone saying "where are your dragons?!?" offscreen. But here, they linger on this impossible situation just long enough to prompt you to run through the list of possible solutions, until you land on dragons, and then they give you the payoff. Good stuff.

Exactly. I think that she even summoned him when she closed her eyes, everything looked like they were about to fall and boom, he shows up to save the day.

Daenerys taking off on her dragon and leaving her team behind is an interesting thing. I wonder what other people think about that. Is she escaping the city for good? Is she expecting them to catch up with her? How many unsullied are still alive? What kind of army will she even have going forward?

I don't think she's leaving them behind or the city, in fact I think she is saving Drogon for being killed.

I would expect that she would land at the top of her castle and eventually meet all her team again and regroup and make a new strategy to end that threat.

I also wonder about how many unsullied she still has, she had thousands and lost many but she still has the second sons so she probably still has a large army.

The burning of Shireen is a great example of character horror done right in the show. It's a difficult storytelling choice that has meaningful implications for everyone, none more than Stannis, who has never been so interesting.

This also means that Shireen managed to go her entire life without being raped or even threatened with rape. And she somehow turned out to be a fully-developed character anyway. Well done, showrunners.

This sacrifice has to work right? So it should be expected that he will defeat the Boltons and by doing so save Sansa?

Also, some of his men looked horrified for that sacrifice, if he does that to his daughter, why would anyone follow him? What I wonder here is what you said, it will have consequences, probably both good (Boltons gone) and bad (losing men?)

If they leave Sansa locked in her rape room over the break, I will be very disappointed. This finale needs to be 3 hours long.

I'm hopeful that won't happen, she has that thing she got and will probably use it on fucking Ramsey, although having hope for good things on this show...

and yes, there's way too much ground to cover, an hour can't be enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 14, 2015, 06:01:02 PM
Speculation spoilers?

Things are looking good for some kind of movement on Sansa's story, if this production photo (http://www.ew.com/sites/default/files/styles/tout_image_612x380/public/i/2015/06/10/sansa-stark.jpg?itok=IHr9RQN2) is any indication.

I just read a theory about who Sansa might be surprised to see, which might correspond to the episode's title. If that's true, it would literally explode the internet.

The title almost certainly refers to Cersei's fate, which seems like a significant spoiler.

I can see it also applying to Daenerys. They love to pick episode titles that have double or triple meanings. Remember how "The Children," last season's finale, had a double meaning?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 14, 2015, 09:40:27 PM
Still not the Mother I wanted to see. (Who was the mother of the title, by the way?)

Anyway: good finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 12:22:43 AM
Re: Drenk. The titular "mother's mercy" refers to the mercy that Cersei had to beg for. (Anyway, no double or triple meanings after all, as far as I can tell.)

Speaking of which, do we think the walk of shame was maybe a minute too long? There was a way to do that effectively as a super long torment, but I'm not sure they pulled it off. Maybe there were too many repeating shots that were essentially the same thing. Or the music wasn't quite doing its job.

I thought it was a great finale overall though.

My favorite part was the dissolution of Stannis. It's quite powerful looking back on his story from beginning to end. It was fascinating to see Melisandre unraveling, too. I do wonder how we are to reconcile the actual magic that she performed (shadow baby etc.) and her actual psychic powers ("You know nothing Jon Snow") with her various charlatanry (including using powders to manipulate fires) and her ultimate failing.

Random thought. Littlefinger's plan (at least the one he told Cersei) depended on Stannis's and Bolton's forces weakening each other with a legit battle, which obviously did not materialize. Hmm.

Jon's death was pretty good. Unfortunately I had been spoiled on that one, including speculation that Olly would kill him (which was being telegraphed throughout this season). So I'm curious how other people reacted to that. I was disappointed that his eyes didn't turn blue right at the end.

This episode eliminated the character with the best claim to the throne (Stannis), and a potential one (R+L=J). Seems to clear the way for Daenerys a bit, doesn't it?

Arya's first scene was amazing. I'm beginning to see why book readers love her so much.

Too bad about Myrcella. Can't let a sweet moment last too long.

The place where they left Sansa, literally in mid-air plunging to some unknown fate, is a perfect illustration of the lazy suspense that now characterizes her story — or rather, that is now the entire content of her story. Brienne missing the candle lighting by seconds is the clear runner-up. That was something out of a terrible movie. My reaction to that was: "Wait, what? That's really what they're going with?" Is Sansa's story so blanketed with bad choices that one shade of idiocy is indistinguishable from another? This continues to be the dumbest corner of Game of Thrones and probably doesn't warrant any further thought. So I'll leave it there.

Also:

Game of Thrones author, producer on whether that character is really dead (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead)

Game of Thrones star on that shocking death: 'I'm not coming back' (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 15, 2015, 10:34:10 PM
First a spoiler free question for the book readers:

Did this season adapt stories from both book 4 and 5?
If so, did the producers left major events from those books for season 6?

--- --- ---

Each death of a major character has been worse than the last, Oberyn last year and now Jon Snow, it's almost laughable to still believe certain characters won't go, which I thought Jon was part of that club, mainly because of the mystery of who his parents really are, speculation points that he was the son of Ned's sister Lyanna with Rhaegar, and that to me seemed like some grand scheme was building towards that storyline, and he was ended by his fucking ‘brothers’, I'm rooting for the wildlings now.

Now, what will happen to Ghost? Alliser hates him so he probably will kill him.


This final episode had many cliffhangers or unresolved stories:

- Sansa jumping

- Arya going blind

- The Tyrell siblings locked up.

- Daenerys surrounded by Dothrakis and Drogo dying
Did no one think they should release the other dragons? Of course, who could get close to do that…


Myrcella dying just a few leagues from ashore, they have to go back right? or will Jaime take Trystane hostage to Kingslanding?


The only good things that happened was the reunion of Tyrion with Varys and Arya killing that Trent fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 15, 2015, 10:47:57 PM
Apparently the series is completely caught up with the books now, and the show cliffhangers match up with the book cliffhangers for the most part.

I just realized that I'm more invested in Myrcella than Sansa right now. Is there a way she can survive? I agree that Jaime has to turn that boat right around. Surely he realizes it's poison.

There's a theory that the dying Jon wargs into Ghost, but that seems unlikely since Jon has never warged before.

I don't think Drogo is dying. Just resting/recovering.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 15, 2015, 11:21:28 PM
Apparently the series is completely caught up with the books now, and the show cliffhangers match up with the book cliffhangers for the most part.

Well that sucks, so that means Bran is completely absent from books 4 and 5? always assumed that maybe his story wasn't that big and they opted for him to sit this one out and return on S6.

Also, if you are correct, why did they adapt two book into one season? that seems dumb since the producers had to know GRRM wouldn't finish the new book on time.


I just realized that I'm more invested in Myrcella than Sansa right now. Is there a way she can survive? I agree that Jaime has to turn that boat right around. Surely he realizes it's poison.

I don't think she can survive but who knows, also if Jaime can't realize by himself she was poisoned Bronn can, that cute girl used the same poison on him.


Speaking of which, do we think the walk of shame was maybe a minute too long? There was a way to do that effectively as a super long torment, but I'm not sure they pulled it off. Maybe there were too many repeating shots that were essentially the same thing. Or the music wasn't quite doing its job.

It felt long, probably so the viewers felt the same as Cersei, I know I wanted it to end. Kudos to Lena heady, that must have been a difficult scene.


Random thought. Littlefinger's plan (at least the one he told Cersei) depended on Stannis's and Bolton's forces weakening each other with a legit battle, which obviously did not materialize. Hmm.

Yes that didn't come to be, but that little fuck always has a card under his sleeve.


The place where they left Sansa, literally in mid-air plunging to some unknown fate, is a perfect illustration of the lazy suspense that now characterizes her story — or rather, that is now the entire content of her story. Brienne missing the candle lighting by seconds is the clear runner-up. That was something out of a terrible movie. My reaction to that was: "Wait, what? That's really what they're going with?" Is Sansa's story so blanketed with bad choices that one shade of idiocy is indistinguishable from another? This continues to be the dumbest corner of Game of Thrones and probably doesn't warrant any further thought. So I'll leave it there.

I didn't like that candle lighti timing too. Still I'm invested in her story and hope she'll be ok.
But, is Sansa even in Bolton's hands in the books? Because apparently she isn't married to Ramsey.


Jon's death was pretty good. I was disappointed that his eyes didn't turn blue right at the end.

I think you have to be killed by a white walker for that to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 16, 2015, 12:12:12 AM
Despite Kit Harrington's outright lies to the media, Jon Snow will be coming back to life.

Point one: Melisandre, a high priestess of the Lord of Light, is at Castle Black.

Point two: We know from what's-his-name (the Brotherhood Without Banners guy), that, at least under certain conditions, followers of the Lord of Light can bring people back from the dead.

Point three: The writers of Game of Thrones are not terrible at storytelling.

Point four: Jon Snow's death at this point in the overall story would be terrible storytelling.

Ipso facto, Jon Snow will be up and tap dancing by episode two at the latest.

Further predictions, based on my vast reservoir of common sense: Stannis is 100% dead, Myrcella is 100% dead, Sansa and Theon are alive (there's a slim chance Theon dies, but Sansa's alive for sure).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2015, 12:25:10 AM
Re: Fernando

Bran was actually caught up to the books at the end of last season. This should answer your book question in detail:  http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/game-of-thrones-season-6

A body double was used for Lena's nudity. They even put her face on the body double for some shots. Still, a good performance for sure.

Re: Polka

The showrunners would have to be lying to the media, too. And these would be some outrageously bold lies.

Quote
When asked point-blank of Snow is firmly gone—as in, is actor Kit Harington released from his Thrones contract?—showrunner Dan Weiss told EW, “Dead is dead.” 

“We would hope that after seeing the scene and the way it’s shot that the answer to that will be unambiguous in the minds of the people watching it,” Weiss explained. “It should be pretty clear what happens in by the time you’re done seeing that scene. It’s not an, ‘Oh what just happened scene?’”

It's possible though. I do like the Melisandre theory.

Point three: The writers of Game of Thrones are not terrible at storytelling.

Point four: Jon Snow's death at this point in the overall story would be terrible storytelling.

I assume you disagree with my ongoing Sansa rants, then.

Agree that Stannis is dead, and that Myrcella is probably dead (though can we please say 90%?).

Ooh what if Bran flies in and catches Sansa? He doesn't have the wingspan for Theon though, so he tumbles off and dies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 16, 2015, 01:15:16 AM
I'm afraid I can't spot you that 10% for Myrcella. She has no further story value alive, only dead.

Note the semantic loophole in the statements re: Jon Snow -- all they're really denying is that he somehow survived the stabbings. I don't think anyone doubts this. The question, then, is not "did he die" (he did), it's "will he be brought back to life?" Everything they're currently saying in the media can be wiggled out of, even if they don't want to go as far as simply saying, "we lied because we wanted to surprise people," which would be completely justified. Harrington's statements are a little more definitive ("will not be back next season"); those, I believe, are simple fibs.

And one's opinion of the writers' handling of the Sansa storyline notwithstanding, there is far too much of the story as has been set up, both plot-wise and thematically, that is predicated on Jon Snow's continued involvement for his permanent death to make any sense. And I feel like it has to follow the Melisandre route. Ignoring any extratextual stuff from the books, Jon warging into his wolf would be a massive out-of-nowhere deus ex machina, because they never even attempted to set it up at any point in the series. Using Lord of Light magic to resurrect people, on the other hand, is well established. I feel very confident about this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2015, 08:54:15 AM
Well, I hope you're right. That would indeed be far better storytelling. They've certainly shown that Melisandre is interested in Jon. And it would really be a shame to see nothing materialize out of R+L=J.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Alexandro on June 16, 2015, 10:20:53 AM
SPOILERS

Well, one thing is for sure and it's that they can't have more than one fake death. Perhaps two.
But everyone "dying" on this episode and then returning next season would be too stupid. Sansa might be one to survive, and perhaps Jon Snow. But Stannis and the blonde girl are gone. Reek too I hope.

Anyway it was major cruelty this finale. If it were a stand alone film it would be like a poem on hopelessness. Not one moment passes without being crushed by the worst feeling possible. That Cersei walk has to be one of the most cruel scenes ever on tv.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on June 16, 2015, 10:55:45 AM
SPOILERS

I don't know why people seem to be confused about Sansa and Theon's fate. They obviously make it. It's interesting that the storm that ruined Stannis is what allowed her to escape, not only by building up the snow for her to land on, but depleting the Stannis force enough so Ramsay felt bold enough to ride out and meet him.

Jon Snow is definitely dead but will likely return to the story in some way. All of this death and resurrection stuff hasn't been set up for nothing. I've read some people point out that dying releases Snow from his Night's Watch vows, which I found interesting.

It's going to be an awkward morning with all the wildlings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 16, 2015, 12:07:23 PM
That better be some really soft snow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 25, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
Very light speculation spoilers


Jon Snow rumors swirl after Kit Harington sighting in Belfast

http://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/jon-snow-rumors-abound-after-kit-harington-sighting/

Fans have held onto hope that Game of Thrones character Jon Snow, who met a grisly demise at the end of season five by the hands of his fellow Night’s Watchmen, will somehow appear in season six. Such theories — including that actor Kit Harington will return as a Wight, or that the character of Jon Snow lives on through the direwolf Ghost — were bolstered by a few fan snapshots taken of Harington flying into Belfast, where Game of Thrones is currently shooting season six. Harrington was also spotted Wednesday with GoT co-star Ben Crompton, who plays Night’s Watch brother Dolorous Edd. Still, the skeptics say that Harington could be in Belfast to visit friends in the cast, or possibly to appear in a flashback or funeral scene. Either way, Harington is still sporting Snow’s luscious locks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 04, 2016, 01:28:00 PM
George R.R. Martin to Fans: Don't Hold Your Breath For That Next Game of Thrones Book

The Winds of Winter won't be done any time soon.


http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/news/a40900/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-book-update/

There are times when it's hard to be a Game of Thrones fan. Pretty much every character you love dies. The books are really, really, really long—sometimes unnecessarily so. And author George R.R. Martin famously writes at the pace of about two books a decade. Now, Martin is kicking off 2016 with some bad news about the much-anticipated next book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series: You're not going to see The Winds of Winter any time soon. As he writes on his personal Live Journal page:


His note seems to be a response to a number of reports last week on theories that Martin hadn't even started on The Winds of Winter.


In his lengthy note, Martin admits that the book will not be done before Game of Thrones season six airs on April 8. He had intended to have the book released by late March, which would have meant he needed to finish a manuscript Halloween. But he didn't get it done, because, as he says, "You can blame my travels or my blog posts or the distractions of other projects and the Cocteau and whatever, but maybe all that had an impact... you can blame my age, and maybe that had an impact too...but if truth be told, sometimes the writing goes well and sometimes it doesn't, and that was true for me even when I was in my 20s."

Now, the only deadline that he's giving himself is that, "It will be done when it's done." And this means, of course, that the HBO show will certainly pass where the books are at. Which, brings up the next obvious question: Will the show spoil the books? Martin has another disappointing answer for that: "Maybe. Yes and no ... Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on January 04, 2016, 01:31:54 PM
SPOILERS GoT season 5:


I don't care about waiting for the book and I hope the pressure doesn't destroy his process...but I'm also sad that after hundred and hundred of pages I'll discover what the fuck is happening behind the Wall in the TV Show. Of course, the books and the show are different. And I prefer the books. But it's still a bummer...

I can decide not to watch the show. But who am I kidding, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on January 06, 2016, 08:30:33 AM
No chance for GoT to be the best show ever. Sorry.  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 08, 2016, 03:37:16 PM
Red-band trailer. A little spoilery, of course.


https://youtu.be/CuH3tJPiP-U
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on March 08, 2016, 03:56:27 PM
cant wait.

I'm curious to see if the writing of this season will be as good as the others, since they are now in some story lines way off the book and the rest are not written/published yet. I know GRRM has given them hints where he's going with it but still we'll see if they can deliver.

I have hope because Dan and David have written great scenes that aren't in the books, we'll see.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 17, 2016, 09:16:57 PM
Ian McShane spoiled something in an interview. Outrage followed. His response?

"Get a fucking life. It’s only tits and dragons."

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/03/ian-mcshane-tits-and-dragons

(For the record, he actually dropped two spoilers, one being more severe and specific. Unfortunately I've now read both of them.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on April 13, 2016, 09:13:05 AM
the last trailer is good! trailer spoilers and speculations:

tyrion is definitely a targaryen. it make too much sense at this point. when he visit the dragons at the end of the trailer it's because 1) he knows that he is a targaryen or 2) is about to realize that. drogon is obviously daenerys dragon and it makes sense that tyrion will ride one of the others.

I just watched S04E01 and had forgotten all about this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8fAqace0Pk

just imagine the last scene of this whole thing when tyrion, daenerys and jon snow are flying away into the sunset with their dragons, looking at each other and smiling because everything went okay. it will be the most beautiful ending and this song will be the perfect soundtrack for it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AnTe663mrY

it's time to say goodbye to yesterday. all men mustn't die. IT'S GONNA BE OKAY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 24, 2016, 05:21:33 PM
FYI, if you don't have HBO, you can sign up for a 30-day free trial of HBO NOW. And honestly, $15/mo is reasonable.

Also keep in mind that HBO is more aggressive about torrents than any other entity. (Unless you use a VPN.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 24, 2016, 10:42:02 PM
Just a reminder, we don't need to post spoiler warnings here, as the thread title suggests. Only post warnings for significant future spoilers like things seen in previews. Lots of people avoid the previews.

––––––––––

Oh how I missed Game of Thrones. It's not my favorite TV show, but it's the one that I anticipate with the most white hot intensity. By a wide margin.

And part of that is GoT's ability to thoroughly satisfy, once in a while giving us a profound payoff that brings character and plot into glorious convergence. When Brienne kneeled down and started giving her oath to Sansa, I cried. When Sansa accepted her oath, I cried like ten babies. You can see in Sansa's eyes a glimmer of happiness and optimism for the first time in a long time. It was so beautiful and so flawlessly understated. I think if they'd hugged, I would have had a brain aneurism.

I like how they brought Jon's wolf and the Red Woman into the picture to cruelly tease both possibilities. It's too late for Jon to warg, though, isn't it? Would he have had to do that as he was dying? Unless next week, we see the wolf clawing a message into the floor.

Can't wait to see what transpires next with Melisandre. Late last season we saw her doubting her powers and even her faith, but surely that was a little disingenuous. Because she's been magically disguising her appearance this whole time, and because she knows the Lord of Light (or whatever it channels) contains tangible power beyond herself. I'd like to see her go back into that room with Davos. Maybe she's chastened now and could become a benevolent ally — maybe even sacrificing herself to revive Jon.

So Arya is Daredevil now? Why does this universe get to have absolutely everything?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on April 25, 2016, 09:26:20 AM
Was a good first ep, but conciously trying to cram in every character to give us an update. Save for Bran, of course. They're definitely milking the Jon Snow death though - I just want that resolved so the internet isn't all "is he dead?" Cersei remains my favorite character, and that moment where her happiness melts into sadness as she realizes her daughter is dead was wonderfully done, powerfully understated just like the Sansa-Brienne moment. Actually, I really thought for a moment that Sansa and Theon weren't going to escape. After all, people easy escape on TV all the time, GOT has to buck the trend in that regard doesn't it? Fortunately not, because it's nice to see Sansa get a break for once.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on April 26, 2016, 06:04:55 PM
It was indeed a relief to see Sansa not simply being raped into her next character moment. I was absolutely sure Brienne was going to save her, though. Because I wasn't willing to entertain other possibilities.

I heard an observation about that scene, which really brought out the subtleties for me: Notice how Sansa begins accepting the oath tentatively, sheepishly. (I also see a look of shame that she didn't accept Brienne's oath the first time.) She is tentative, even looking to Theon for approval. Then as it continues, you can see her gaining confidence. Remembering her lineage. Standing up a little straighter. Recognizing how proud she should be that she's actually made it here, to this moment. What a performance.

Some light speculation spoilers:

People are suggesting that Jon's consciousness is currently in Ghost (his direwolf). And then when Melisandre revives him, it will transfer back into his body. But it will bring along some wolf qualities; apparently there is precedent for that in the books. The act of reviving changes a person too. So Jon could come back with two dimensions of change.

This courtesy of Matt Atchity (editor-in-chief of Rotten Tomatoes, from their podcast): Book readers are upset that the Dorne story was harshly and suddenly pruned. But it could actually lead to something very interesting. Imagine King's Landing and Dorne going to war, turning the South into a disaster area. The populace will be begging for Daenerys to intervene and restore peace.

I've heard some doubt that Stannis is dead. But he absolutely is. In the "previously on" clip, you can actually hear Oathkeeper slicing through his neck. They included the gore sound effect just to make it clear, and so they could keep the focus on Brienne, where it belonged.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 01, 2016, 02:21:08 PM

Some light speculation spoilers:

People are suggesting that Jon's consciousness is currently in Ghost (his direwolf). And then when Melisandre revives him, it will transfer back into his body. But it will bring along some wolf qualities; apparently there is precedent for that in the books. The act of reviving changes a person too. So Jon could come back with two dimensions of change.

Minor book spoils.

In the book Dance with dragons is evident that Jon too has warg abilities but he has never used them, and that warg wildling he killed said he was like him too but didn't know about it.

the little we saw ghost last week there is no indication he warged in him, many book readers speculate that he could live through ghost and maybe that would work on the book but I have my doubts it can work on the tv show.

As for Melisandre, she tells him that she sees daggers in his future and that at some point he will have need of her, so, many believe it will be Melisandre who revives him. as of right now I have my doubts it will happen (in the tv show) given that she has lost faith in herself, many things could change of course.

another interesting bit of Melisandre's chapter in ADWD is that she keeps asking to see Azor Ahai (Stannis according to her) in her fires but she only sees snow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 04, 2016, 11:03:12 PM
not a single comment, were you disappointed or what?


Jon. Through the final scene couldn't help to notice that Melisandre's gem never glowed, and so I think it was a weird choice the way they brought him back, I understand that that Mel is having doubts and all that but IMO the scene could have been more powerful if done a little different, other than that no complains, I'm happy he's back.

Ramsey. The surprising thing about him is that he is even worse in the books, having said that, he oddly looked like he wasn't enjoying the killing of Walda and her infant son, although he chose the most horrible way to kill them. Roose's death was unexpected and it was one of the characters I wanted to see go in a horrible way, it's weird but it didn't feel that awful, although he died exactly like Robb, he literally reaped what he sowed.

Bran. It's going to be interesting how much he goes to the past and future and what they show us, there are many stories they could tell.

Tyrion's freeing the dragons was good, I wonder if they left the door open so they can escape...

Kill of the week. The giant smashing that crow to the wall.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 12:13:32 AM
I definitely liked the episode...

Ramsay not taking pleasure in Roose's death (looking away, even) was interesting. But then he grits his teeth and moves on, deriving power from what he's done, like Kylo Ren.

The ensuing bit of grisly business in the dog kennel was somehow less interesting, and not as effective as Shireen's death. I'm probably in the severe minority, but I think we needed to see a little more there. I don't need to see a spray of blood across Ramsay's face, but... maybe the woman flinching as the dogs go in? Something like that.

The way Jon's resurrection played out was surprisingly divisive. I will happily defend it. Sure, it was weird, but that's actually great. Did people really want more cliches in that scene? I thought it was appropriately bizarre and singular and memorable. It's kind of poetic the way they removed all other characters from the scene, so it was a moment between us and Jon Snow, both intimate and meta. The way it dragged out tortured but delighted me. I enjoy being trolled, and this was some prime trolling.

Until we saw Ghost wake up, I honestly thought they just might pull the rug and leave him dead. Of course that doesn't make any sense, but such was the power of the scene.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 05, 2016, 09:40:08 AM
I've fund these first two episodes to be surprisingly hollow, but maybe that's just in the context of all the morning-after reactions online which ALWAYS contain the word "shocking" in the headline. At least the whole "is Jon really dead?" nonsense has been put to bed now. I did get a goofy grin when I realized that was Hodor in the opening scene. Would have liked more from the Tyrion/dragons scene - it felt like it has no resolution. Based on his speech immediately prior, I was expecting him to either set the dragons free or at least start to bond with them. I felt that the "if I ever have an idea like that again..." line undercut the whole thing and made it seem like it really didn't matter.

Also - even though Dany is now going to be imprisoned (??) didn't the respect otherwise shown to her contradict what we previously learned about the Dothraki and how they treat the widow of the former leaders?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
Would have liked more from the Tyrion/dragons scene - it felt like it has no resolution. Based on his speech immediately prior, I was expecting him to either set the dragons free or at least start to bond with them. I felt that the "if I ever have an idea like that again..." line undercut the whole thing and made it seem like it really didn't matter.

He was only saying that as a quip because it was a scary experience. That was absolutely an important scene. It heavily hinted that he's half Targaryen. And now he's basically the uncle of dragons.

In fact, they put three major puzzles pieces together, all in this one episode, pushing us further toward (SPECULATION SPOILERS) the much-anticipated Targaryen trio — Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion — and the eventual climax involving all three of them:

1. Jon coming back
2. Tyrion making dragon friends & being all but outed as a Targaryen
2. Introducing Lyanna Stark, which set off all kinds of alarms for book readers, because she is arguably the key to the whole thing

And anyway, I believe Tyrion has set the dragons free. Isn't there a larger exit somewhere in the back? Surely they won't be going out through that little door.

Also - even though Dany is now going to be imprisoned (??) didn't the respect otherwise shown to her contradict what we previously learned about the Dothraki and how they treat the widow of the former leaders?

I think they'll end up joining her army.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 05, 2016, 11:05:51 AM
He was only saying that as a quip because it was a scary experience. That was absolutely an important scene. It heavily hinted that he's half Targaryen. And now he's basically the uncle of dragons.

I get that, I've been paying attention to the speculation here from people who know more than me. On reflection, it probably would have been too heavy handed if they'd made a bigger deal of the scene or not had the quip to undercut it all. The geography of the dungeon is bugging me now though - it's so dark in there, must be a heck of a walk to the larger dragon-size door.

So dragons rescue Dany, torch the Dothraki, all the merry widows join Dany's army, Jorah pissed that he couldn't be Dany's savior?

Had to Google Lyanna.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 05, 2016, 11:27:54 AM
You're right, that dungeon is problematic. I'm struggling to fill in the blanks for them. I guess it's possible Tyrion wants to feed them something before they're fully released.

The consensus seems to be that the Dothraki will join Dany's army... but I have no idea how or why. Should be interesting.

(More speculation spoilers on the same subject)

As much as I love Hodor, he kinda served as a red herring in that flashback. Lyanna is the Helen of Troy of this whole story, and her introduction is explosively important. Casting reveals that we'll be seeing the older version of her, too. Her abduction led to Robert's Rebellion, and her progeny (which resulted from that abduction) may just save the world. It's like a beautiful redemptive loop.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 08, 2016, 11:05:38 PM
I know GoT is working when I'm genuinely angry that the episode has ended. Why not another hour? I have a legit free trial of HBO Now; am I not entitled to more?

Jon's story worked the best for me in this episode. I don't know how that could have been done better — every step felt pitch-perfect. I especially loved Jon's awakening. The execution scene was fantastic, too. Is it bad that I was excited to see Ollie die?

Really not sure who to root for in King's Landing. My head tells me that Olenna Tyrell is the most legit person there, but my heart wants Cersei to slay all her enemies and bathe in their blood. Surely they must join forces to defeat the church.

I hope some of these stories come to fruition earlier than others. Please don't put all the payoffs in one episode. As much as I enjoy it, I don't know how much setup and anticipation I can handle.

Arya's scenes are barely holding my interest. Perhaps it doesn't enthrall me that her progress is mostly achieved by being beaten with a stick for a long time. I'm not sure it's working as intended... just seems a little substanceless. Maybe it's one of those things that will be more interesting in retrospect, once we see where it's leading.

Speculation spoilers:

Yet more movement toward R+L=J. So close that they're almost showing their hand. I hope the reveal will be subtle enough. It could be an impossible task to please everyone, i.e. those who may not remember Ned dropping a hint in Season 1, and those who are impatiently expecting a very specific thing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 06:35:15 AM
I know GoT is working when I'm genuinely angry that the episode has ended. Why not another hour? I have a legit free trial of HBO Now; am I not entitled to more?



I don't think they know what they're doing, that's why almost nothing happens in this episode. I mean, there is a whole scene with Tyrion who doesn't know what to say...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 09, 2016, 10:42:17 AM
almost nothing happens in this episode.

Something important happened in every scene, including the one you reference.

"Nothing happened..." I even heard this said about last week's episode, in which an absurd number of things happened. In which two of the most powerful men in this universe were assassinated. In which Lyanna Stark was introduced and Jon Snow came back from the dead.

What more do people want? Are GoT fans really so fickle that they freak out when there's one quiet scene? I sincerely don't understand this phenomenon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 09, 2016, 10:55:19 AM
almost nothing happens in this episode.

Something important happened in every scene, including the one you reference.

"Nothing happened..." I even heard this said about last week's episode, in which an absurd number of things happened. In which two of the most powerful men in this universe were assassinated. In which Lyanna Stark was introduced and Jon Snow came back from the dead.

What more do people want? Are GoT fans really so fickle that they freak out when there's one quiet scene? I sincerely don't understand this phenomenon.

Yes, my sentence was easy, I didn't explain myself correctly. I'd take a whole episode with Bran instead of them killing characters from the books they don't want to deal with (it was even supposed to be comic, I think...)

I actually prefer the quiet scenes. The ones with Cersei this season were all great. Last week (except the silly murders) was a good episode. But I do think that they're stuck. Arya and Sansa have awful storylines. Arya has that overlong storyline in the books, too, but she's less destined to become a killing machine, I think. But they could have done way better with Sansa. At this point, she's not the one who needs to be comforted by Theon. I don't mind when you change the material. It's already different story! But when you change the storyline and don't care anymore about your character...


About Jon: all the fuss about his death will be forgotten and I'm glad that it made him leave Castle Black. I just hope that a convergence will begin, and if they needed that episode to make that happen, all right. The Starks back at Winterfell to save Rickon and take what's theirs?

And: Tommen is great. He should stay king.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 09, 2016, 11:12:56 AM
Jon's story worked the best for me in this episode. I don't know how that could have been done better — every step felt pitch-perfect. I especially loved Jon's awakening. The execution scene was fantastic, too. Is it bad that I was excited to see Ollie die?

Yes it worked, I like that they are consistent with the fact that there's nothing on the other side, which is what Beric Dondarrion said too to Melisandre.
I would have loved to see more of her with Jon, now he's gone but I hope they bring them together again.
I notice he left without Ghost, but I guess he will follow him.

Really not sure who to root for in King's Landing. My head tells me that Olenna Tyrell is the most legit person there, but my heart wants Cersei to slay all her enemies and bathe in their blood. Surely they must join forces to defeat the church.

Same thing happens to me, I want to see Cersei get her revenge and probably she will get at least some of it, but in the end it will back fire like many decisions she's made, it surprised me that the scene at the small council didn't end in a bloodshed.

Arya's scenes are barely holding my interest. Perhaps it doesn't enthrall me that her progress is mostly achieved by being beaten with a stick for a long time. I'm not sure it's working as intended... just seems a little substanceless. Maybe it's one of those things that will be more interesting in retrospect, once we see where it's leading.

I actually liked Arya's story this week, and more importantly, she mentions Walder Frey for the first time in her list, which now only has three names.

Speculation spoilers:

Yet more movement toward R+L=J. So close that they're almost showing their hand. I hope the reveal will be subtle enough. It could be an impossible task to please everyone, i.e. those who may not remember Ned dropping a hint in Season 1, and those who are impatiently expecting a very specific thing.

JB, what hint are you talking about? I only remember Ned mentioning to Jon that he will tell him about her next time they see each other, right after Jon goes to Castle Black and Ned is heading to Kingslanding.

I don't get the speculation that Tyrion is a Targaryen, there hasn't been any hints (as far as I remember) in the show or the books, last week scene with the dragons was even explained by Tyrion, dragons are even more intelligent than men he said, at least to me that doesn't mean Tyrion has Targaryen blood.


Rickon is back! and yet another direwolf is gone :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 09, 2016, 11:44:14 AM
But I do think that they're stuck.

I can understand that. Arya, Brann, and Daenerys are all very much stuck. Others are also a bit stuck, but more by choice. Theon and Sansa are on the move, and Jon will be too, so that's kind of enough for me right now. I'm making an effort to be patient, because you can really feel an epic convergence on the horizon.

I think it's going to work, as long as they don't try to blow our minds by cramming too much of it into one episode.

But they could have done way better with Sansa.

I've probably expended thousands of words here complaining about the show's Sansa choices. But this season's premiere was redemptive for me. I think she finally has promise.

JB, what hint are you talking about? I only remember Ned mentioning to Jon that he will tell him about her next time they see each other, right after Jon goes to Castle Black and Ned is heading to Kingslanding.

That's basically what I'm referencing. In retrospect, it's more how it was said. It was the show dropping a heavy hint very early that Jon's parentage was a completely open question. Also, it seemed very incongruous at the time that Ned would have been unfaithful to his wife (not honorable) and then brought back the baby. I think there was enough to make us suspect that wasn't the truth.

I don't get the speculation that Tyrion is a Targaryen, there hasn't been any hints (as far as I remember) in the show or the books, last week scene with the dragons was even explained by Tyrion, dragons are even more intelligent than men he said, at least to me that doesn't mean Tyrion has Targaryen blood.

I'm trying to remember the source for that, but I think it's 90% likely that he is a Targaryen. The way Tywin was so resentful of him seemed to go beyond his appearance or the fact that his mother died in childbirth. That would make a lot more sense if Tywin knew he wasn't the father.

Found some good evidence here:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-likelihood-that-Tyrion-Lannister-is-secretly-a-Targaryen

Example from that link. Tywin says this to Tyrion: "You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

We already have one vehicle for discovering these secrets, but we will soon have another — Sam — when he starts studying to be a maester.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 16, 2016, 01:02:40 AM
LOL, I just read another AV Club comment (http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/strangers-reemerge-westeros-game-thrones-marches-e-236809#comment-2677896306): "And yet another episode in which nothing happened!" Which did in fact make me laugh out loud. Do people understand what "happened" means? This is seriously getting out of control.

I've been sampling some GoT podcasts, and there is one ("A Cast of Kings") which is at least 50% complaining about the show. This season is such an improvement over last; will people settle for nothing but absolute perfection? It's made by humans. I'm reminded of something Matt Zoller Seitz often says. Audacity should be rewarded and appreciated. I have a genuine sadness for viewers who don't even realize how much they're taking this show for granted.

Anyway...

I think this might be the best episode of this season so far, although the premiere was more emotionally affecting. I guess I'm less interested in judging GoT episode-by-episode, though. Sure, they do like to wrap an episode in a theme sometimes, but outside of that it's like "which episode had the greatest number of scenes with my favorite characters or places."

Daenerys's big scene had me more excited than a schoolgirl. I'm not even sure what noises I made. Benioff compared it to her first "fire rebirth," but for me it struck the same chords as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nTj-um1c_o).

Sansa & Jon meeting was the other major highlight. I was so grateful that these characters were mercifully allowed to reunite and join forces. Sansa is really stepping up, isn't she? And thankfully, it seems to have less to do with her rape, and more to do with wanting Winterfell back. Reasons for optimism: Surely it's too soon for Jon or Sansa to suffer another defeat, story-wise. Littlefinger's "army of the Vale" plus other Northern houses plus the Wildlings (specifically threatened in that letter) should be enough to take Winterfell, right?

There was a lot of great humor in this episode. Tormund being smitten with Brienne. Sand in the face not working.

I think Meereen yielded mixed results this time. I'm going to blame it on Misandei and Greyworm's acting abilities, honestly. Their eyes were almost bugging out of their heads. The camera picks up subtlety, you guys! Less is more! And Greyworm's accent is not great. (I suppose he would sound stilted speaking a foreign tongue, though, so it's tough to judge.)

Lots of brief important moments in this episode were handled pitch-perfectly. Like Theon and Yara.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 16, 2016, 05:53:23 AM
^ A perfect response to the ep. I agree with everything you said, including best ep of the season so far. Soooo much happened.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 16, 2016, 09:57:13 AM
Well, that was a great episodes. Everything was moving toward an end goal with great scenes. Great characters moments, too. And Sansa is finally Sansa!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 17, 2016, 01:02:59 AM
There's a joke to be made about Ramsay and OSHA violations, but I can't be bothered to work it out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on May 17, 2016, 06:27:40 AM
There's a joke to be made about Ramsay and OSHA violations, but I can't be bothered to work it out.

It's not so much that he killed her, rather that he was wearing sandals while he did it.

Disclaimer: I don't know if he was *actually* wearing sandals.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 01:44:10 PM
SPOILS S06E04

Jon and Sansa
This was a great surprised, I thought they would miss each other like many times before, but finally two Starks meet! I know it wouldn't be good story telling or whatever but I'd love to see Jon and Sansa telling each other’s misadventures.

Littlefinger
So it looks like LF will be helping them to take back the north, this conniving prick always plays for one cause, his, I wonder if by now Sansa has learned not to trust that and if he does help it will be with some precautions. And that little Lord of the Vale looks as crazy as his mom.

Dany
When Dany and the Dothraki girl go out, Dany asked her if she wants to see her dragons, she says “I can never leave Vaes Dothrak, until I rise as smoke from the pyre on the day I die”, didn't notice this phrase until I saw the episode again, I guess Dany got from that her idea of burning them to the ground, and so, she's a goddess again.

Kingslanding
I love that for once Cersei is doing the right thing (apparently) and is making an ally of her “enemies” for a common cause, what I wonder is her true intentions, does she really wants to help Margaery go back to Tommen? Probably…but for a short time.

Theon
All things considered Theon is slowly recovering from Ramsey's physical and mental torture, Yara was kind of hard with him, but it was great that Theon is thinking right and will support Yara, but at the eyes of the iron born, what kind of influence can he a broken man have on them?

The letter
That part in the book is pretty sweet and here while different worked really well, loved Tormund's reaction of it, his eyes full of rage, in the end Jon doesn't have another choice than to go and fight.

Rickon
There's a lot of speculation that the guy that handed Rickon and Osha is really a Stark follower and that even Shaggydog is alive (please let that be true!), it could be but it's a bold plan to say the least, now Osha is gone and Rickon is locked up under dire conditions so that theory is probably shit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 17, 2016, 04:19:52 PM
Littlefinger
So it looks like LF will be helping them to take back the north, this conniving prick always plays for one cause, his, I wonder if by now Sansa has learned not to trust that and if he does help it will be with some precautions. And that little Lord of the Vale looks as crazy as his mom.

Is it technically true that he's playing all sides right now? He's even in with the Lannisters. If the attack on Winterfell fails (it won't), would he be able to hide his involvement from the Bolton(s)?

Also, the penultimate episode of this season will be the battle for Winterfell, right?

Kingslanding
I love that for once Cersei is doing the right thing (apparently) and is making an ally of her “enemies” for a common cause, what I wonder is her true intentions, does she really wants to help Margaery go back to Tommen? Probably…but for a short time.

I heard an interesting bit of speculation on the Rotten Tomatoes podcast. Taking for granted that Cersei is never the mastermind she believes she is, but Olenna was only matched by Tywin... What if the Tyrells are planning to let Tommen die and take over King's Landing? If there's any resistance, their army will be right there inside the city, and the Lannister army will be standing down.

The letter
That part in the book is pretty sweet and here while different worked really well, loved Tormund's reaction of it, his eyes full of rage, in the end Jon doesn't have another choice than to go and fight.

There was so much good stuff in this episode that I didn't get to that, but it was one of my favorite moments. Ramsay's refrain: "come and see" was absolutely chilling. Perhaps moreso with Ramsay not present. (Kit Harrington did a great job with that scene.)

they do like to wrap an episode in a theme sometimes

I think the theme of this episode was female empowerment (in many cases), and sisters telling their brothers to get it together: Sansa with Jon, Yara with Theon, and Margaery with Loras.

BTW, this ep has 100% on Rotten Tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s06/e04/), with 44 reviews.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 17, 2016, 10:51:59 PM
Littlefinger
So it looks like LF will be helping them to take back the north, this conniving prick always plays for one cause, his, I wonder if by now Sansa has learned not to trust that and if he does help it will be with some precautions. And that little Lord of the Vale looks as crazy as his mom.

Is it technically true that he's playing all sides right now? He's even in with the Lannisters. If the attack on Winterfell fails (it won't), would he be able to hide his involvement from the Bolton(s)?

Also, the penultimate episode of this season will be the battle for Winterfell, right?

He has shown us many times he plays for the team that is convenient at that moment, when he's with Cersei he tells her what she wants to hear and so he does the same with everyone else. e.g. I don't doubt he cared for Catelyn but in the end what he craves is power, obviously he knew about the red wedding and didn't do shit to alert his dear Cat, yes he killed Joffrey but again to end up with Sansa, only to hand her to the Boltons; see? I can't trust anything he says...

Anyway, what's interesting now is how will he get away with Sansa's stupid abduction story when they meet at Castle Black or wherever, assuming they do, all Lord Royce has to do (if he lives) is chat with Sansa, Brienne, Jon or whoever could know to blow that story over, maybe this will be the con that will end his luck? probably not...

Also, the penultimate episode of this season will be the battle for Winterfell, right?

Yes, that has to be episode 9, and apparently it's the biggest yet.

Kingslanding
I love that for once Cersei is doing the right thing (apparently) and is making an ally of her “enemies” for a common cause, what I wonder is her true intentions, does she really wants to help Margaery go back to Tommen? Probably…but for a short time.

I heard an interesting bit of speculation on the Rotten Tomatoes podcast. Taking for granted that Cersei is never the mastermind she believes she is, but Olenna was only matched by Tywin... What if the Tyrells are planning to let Tommen die and take over King's Landing? If there's any resistance, their army will be right there inside the city, and the Lannister army will be standing down.

I like that theory, maybe that's when the prophecy of that witch comes to full circle and she finally losses everything? Will see…

Which podcast would you recommend? I haven't listened to any…

BTW, I saw a little of after the thrones and it isn't good, it's made for people that don't pay attention and only know the names of four characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2016, 12:20:37 AM
It's hard to tell what will happen with Littlefinger. The thing is, the story has lined up so many characters who could end up being pivotal in the final conflicts. Arya could go around assassinating key people. Bran could warg into a dragon. (That's happening, right?) Littlefinger could influence yet another hugely important plot turn.

Actually, isn't Arya the perfect candidate to off Littlefinger? She doesn't owe him anything, and she could do it anonymously. Anyone else trying to take him down would face consequences.

Which podcast would you recommend? I haven't listened to any…

BTW, I saw a little of after the thrones and it isn't good, it's made for people that don't pay attention and only know the names of four characters.

Game of Thrones The Podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/) - Has 3 episodes every week: instant take, in-depth analysis, book-infused speculation. (I don't listen to all of them.) Based on your reaction to After The Thrones, you might like this podcast the best.

Nerdette Recaps Game of Thrones with Peter Sagal (http://www.npr.org/podcasts/475256456/nerdette-recaps-game-of-thrones-with-peter-sagal) - Might be my favorite one on balance.

Rotten Tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/columns/rotten_tomatoes_podcast/) - Matt Atchity (RT editor-in-chief) is the highlight of their GoT recaps. He's come up with a few theories I haven't heard anywhere else.

Throneroom (http://podcastldn.com/throneroom/) - Just tried this one today. It's pretty good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2016, 09:44:11 PM
Here's something that podcasts can't do:

http://www.avclub.com/video/does-handsome-falcon-game-thrones-remind-you-anyon-236959
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 23, 2016, 01:17:52 AM
Damn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: samsong on May 23, 2016, 01:35:25 AM
i'm... so sad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on May 23, 2016, 02:02:36 AM
Saddest death on GoT, methinks. Heartbreaking. And it was not a king or an important player.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on May 23, 2016, 07:52:42 AM
Best episode in a long time.

I wonder what Bran has changed more.

Loved the children of the forest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 23, 2016, 11:42:10 AM
This season has been really great, every episode better than the last, of course, after an uplifting episode it had to follow a heartbreaking one.

I wonder how much information has GRRM given to Dave and Dan...could it be that he gave them an outline of the events but only for the show? and they just develop the story to get to that point.

anyway...

Sansa
Loved how Sansa confronted Littlefinger, "if you didn't know what Ramsey was you're an idiot, if you did you're my enemy" Sansa FTW. Now, it worries me that the Blackfish info could be bogus, this is the most conniving player we know and by that moment he knew Sansa doesn't want him, so maybe he made up that story (which seems possible) to lead them to a trap, maybe not to harm them but to "rescue" them just in time...yes, a lot of maybes. In truth, I have no clue what LF's next move could be.

Arya
I have a feeling that even if she becomes faceless she will never stop being Arya, and when she takes revenge on her own she'll be doomed.

Meereen
Another Red Priestess that claims to know who's the one that was promised, and many speculate that Jon and Dany will end up ruling, I doubt that theory will come to be, anyway, Varys' face when she tells him about that time he was cut was priceless.

Bran
Best Bran storyline so far. Was it a red flag to see Hodor and Meera happily talking about breakfast? :(
I'm surprised how much it saddened me Hodor's death, truly heartbreaking, but his story arc came to full circle in great way, before that, Summer dying made me yell to the tv a loud 'nooooooo', the last ten minutes were intense.
How a girl pulling a big ass teen will outrun a horde of whitewalkers? (didn't see next episode's tease)


Why did Jon left Ghost at Castle Black? At this point probably safer...


you guys might want to check out this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 11:48:01 AM
What an elegantly constructed episode. It started out subdued and brooding and gradually increased in intensity from there. It definitely worked to spread Bran's scenes throughout, building to that climax. Who knew they could end two episodes in a row like this?

"Hold the door" plus the time loop was more than enough to blow my mind. And it was so dense! This is the first episode in a while where I know I need to re-watch it to fully understand what's actually going on. Mostly for those final minutes. And for the stage play — for some reason it totally fascinated me how pop culture in this world is rewriting history in subtle ways. Also, I loved that GoT was like, guess what, we want to show you this play in its entirety, so we're going long. Take it or leave it.

It was not great to hear Sansa talk about her injuries, but I suppose it was necessary, and locating it in that confrontation with Littlefinger seemed appropriate. The nights of the Vale are going to ride in and help whether she likes it or not, right?

The scene with Dany and Jorah really got me. As much as this season is ratcheting up the tension, it's also a time for resolutions.

There's no way Arya is staying with the faceless guys, right? She does not seem comfortable killing random people for money, nor does she seem to have any deep belief in this Many-Faced God. I mean, this is actually a fairly sinister thing that she should probably get away from. It is literally a death cult. I assume she's just going to use her training for her own purposes once she inevitably splits.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 23, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
The hardest thing to do in any storytelling medium is create an emotional payoff that is simultaneously earned and unexpected. "Hold the door" could have entire essays written about how elegantly it was set up and how profoundly powerful the moment was as a result.

Another thing I love about it is how it allows every viewer to put the pieces together in their head before it makes the link explicit. They ultimately make it impossible to miss, but when you figure it out yourself in the minutes or seconds prior to that, it lets you have that incredible click moment, like it knocks the air out of you.

It's amazing how, because of that ending, we'll all remember this as one of the all-time great GoT episodes, when really everything up to that moment was essentially just fine. But holy shit, did they stick the landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on May 23, 2016, 02:08:14 PM
yeah, you know that a show is great when it makes people shout at the tv. my girlfriend realized what was going on some seconds before me and I was like yelling "what!? what!?" before I understood as well. for me, this worked way better then the ending of last episode.

have you seen this btw?

posted april 2014:

https://ventrellaquest.com/tag/game-of-thrones/

"Me:  I finally figured out why you have a character named "Hodor."
Martin:  Oh?
Me:  I was thinking about your comment about wanting to be an elevator operator.  It's clear to me now that "Hodor" is short for "Hold the door."
Martin:  (laughing)  You don't know how close to the truth you are!"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 23, 2016, 03:51:59 PM
I keep thinking of other random things I appreciated...

Wights flooding the weirwood tree. Then rushing through that tunnel, on the floors, walls, and ceiling. So creepy and terrifying.

Leaf slowly pushing the (dragonglass?) shard into the man's chest to create the first white walker. That image is definitely staying with me. (I assume that was the Night's King.)

I'm excited about the idea of Yara and Theon stealing the Daenerys tip from Yuron (who is pretty horrible and apparently wants to murder them?) and doing it for themselves. First time I've ever rooted for the Iron Island folks.

I love how Littlefinger was forced to shut up while Sansa lectured him. It was fascinating seeing him afraid to speak for much of that scene. He didn't even dare to express much sympathy — and the little that he did express ("I'm so so sorry") seemed genuine, actually.

I would be interested in his character getting more complicated. Like, make sure the mustache twirling doesn't get dialed up any further, and maybe even dial it back. What if he actually does want to see Sansa ascend in power?

And, with his finger to the wind, what if he has something great to offer Daenerys, perhaps brokering an alliance between the Starks and Dany? Would Varys even allow Littlefinger to meet the queen?

If not that, I think it's equally plausible that Littlefinger's chain of power plays might be coming to a natural end. Who even trusts him anymore? Not Sansa. Not any other Starks. Not Varys. Not Royce. Not the Lannisters, really. (I recall Cersei, not even the greatest of minds, being very skeptical in their last meeting.) The only person who definitely trusts him is a mentally deficient boy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 04:54:34 PM
So this time loop, do we think it'll be explained further? Or will it just stay in the "that was pretty cool, but lets not think about it too hard" zone that most time travel related things live in?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 04:59:21 PM
So this time loop, do we think it'll be explained further? Or will it just stay in the "that was pretty cool, but lets not think about it too hard" zone that most time travel related things live in?

I think it's going to continue to be crucial to Bran's ongoing impact on the story. There are a lot of theories about certain aspects of the story's history that could be tied into this ability (the Mad King's voices in his head, for example).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2016, 06:14:13 PM
I don't think it needs more explanation, necessarily. As they say on Lost: whatever happened, happened. If I'm willing to accept time travel, I'm also willing to accept time loops. They make more sense than the alternative, which is seeing one version of reality play out, and then seeing time travel change that.

But I like that mad king theory. And...

SPECULATION SPOILERS

If GoT really wants to go down the rabbit hole, they'll follow the "Bran the originator" theory. Under this theory, Bran went back in time to build the wall (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4kt746/everything_a_young_bran_told_the_first_storm_king/). And he might have done a lot more.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_the_Builder
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 06:39:59 PM
I want and expect them to go all the way down the rabbit hole and come out the other side. I've long felt that a major theme of the overarching story is that the events of history are essentially an immovable force, that the players of the game are more swept up in the wave than they actually affect it, despite all their vanities to the contrary. How perfect a culmination of that thesis would it be to discover in the end that the whole of this world's history is a closed causal loop?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 06:48:38 PM
Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 24, 2016, 07:05:18 PM
Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?

I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2016, 07:27:18 PM
Totally agree. Another example is the prophecy told to Cersei. Knowing the prophecy does absolutely nothing to prevent its fulfillment, because it was always going to happen. In fact, Cersei learning the prophecy might have been a prerequisite for the prophecy itself existing and being true. That has nothing to do with time travel, but it's the same principle.

I'm ready for the rabbit hole. I really am. I only have some skepticism to guard myself from getting too excited.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 24, 2016, 09:38:57 PM
Great posts guys, keep'em coming.

SPECULATION SPOILERS

If GoT really wants to go down the rabbit hole, they'll follow the "Bran the originator" theory. Under this theory, Bran went back in time to build the wall (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4kt746/everything_a_young_bran_told_the_first_storm_king/). And he might have done a lot more.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_the_Builder

maybe he doesn't build it but like Inception he puts the idea through warging and then it gets built by whoever...

--- --- ---

It was not great to hear Sansa talk about her injuries, but I suppose it was necessary, and locating it in that confrontation with Littlefinger seemed appropriate. The nights of the Vale are going to ride in and help whether she likes it or not, right?

I'm not so sure, and the more I think about Littlefinger telling her about the Blackfish the more I don't believe him. Sansa told him to go back to Moat Cailin but that is a Bolton stronghold, in fact it's the one that made Ramsey a Bolton when Reek passed as Theon to fool the Iron Born, so why would LF be there?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 24, 2016, 10:50:31 PM
I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. But from a dramatic storytelling standpoint, you can only get away with that so many times.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 30, 2016, 01:17:32 AM
I'm sure there's going to be a chorus of "nothing happened!" in response to this episode, but on balance it was equally exciting to me as last week's.

Then again, maybe I'm being unfair and people (six seasons in) are starting to figure out what "happened" means in Game of Thrones. Complex plots don't just create themselves. The show has to actually do it. And I for one love seeing all these narrative screws turning. Partly because the show is really helping us make those anticipatory connections. For example, Benjen tells Bran that the Night King will come to the world of men and you'll be waiting for him... then it immediately cuts to Daenerys discussing her plans to conquer Westeros. Get it? Daenerys will be there too, and she'll have a dragon. (I have Bran warging into a dragon at 95% now. I can't wait to see Drogon's eyes roll back in his head — that's going to break people's brains.)

Daenerys's speech and show of power really worked for me, too. I know it sort of came out of nowhere (except it didn't, discussed above), but something clicked. Maybe it was the majesty of Drogon. Maybe it was the satisfaction of seeing her connection with the Dothraki reaffirmed.

Maybe it was my ever-increasing desire to see King's Landing scorched with dragon fire. As Aegon said in Bran's vision, burn them all. Seriously. Margaery included.

She is a bit of a mystery to me right now. What's really going on there? I'd wager it's a cynical play to get maximum power for herself, but that's so dark. Shutting out her family and potentially collapsing House Tyrell? Is she that dark? Is that even a smart move?

Here's what should happen: King's Landing remains overrun with religious zealots, and it just gets worse, forcing Cersei out of the capital. (But the Tyrells stay there, because their family is captive.) Jaime's encounter at River Run leads him to ally with the Starks to turn against Frey and Bolton and take back Winterfell. The Starks are willing to accept his help because he convinces them the Red Wedding etc. was Tywin's thing. Perhaps Jaime asks them to help him take back King's Landing, but they're lukewarm on the idea. Before that can materialize (remember this all takes a while), White Walkers appear, and the battle begins. They actually get into or near King's Landing, fulfilling Daenerys's vision of the frozen throne. They're defeated by wildfire (which is in King's Landing, as we were reminded of this week) and dragons — echoing what Aegon did — plus soldiers with dragonglass arrows and a select few with Valyrian steel. Daenerys rules, and Jaime is allowed to hang out there in some capacity, just in case she goes mad.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on May 30, 2016, 02:10:48 AM
I'm gonna take your juxtaposition theory with the Bran/Daenerys scenes and accept them. Because otherwise that Dany scene sucked. It served no other purpose than to show that she has dragons, is a badass, and has a faithful army, all things which we already know. AND we've already ended episodes/seasons on all those notes.

I did, for the first time in a while, love the Arya scenes. Finally she's coming to her senses. Can't wait to see where that goes.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

I loved everything else. Don't misinterpret this as a hate post. Just a little frustrated with certain storylines. I like JB's "What should happen." They seem to be building toward another war, and we understand all the working pieces better and better now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 31, 2016, 03:34:15 PM
I'm gonna take your juxtaposition theory with the Bran/Daenerys scenes and accept them. Because otherwise that Dany scene sucked. It served no other purpose than to show that she has dragons, is a badass, and has a faithful army, all things which we already know. AND we've already ended episodes/seasons on all those notes.

I can feel the showrunners' urge to end episodes with inspirational Daenerys moments whenever possible. But I think this one, however sudden, was important. More than anything, as all these worlds are starting to converge, they're reminding us to root for Daenerys.

It's funny. Some people complain about the repetitive and laborious nature of Daenerys's journey, but that's exactly the point. This what it takes in this world to pull off something so audacious. You might have to give more than a few inspirational speeches. Even if you have dragons and magic and fate on your side, you will constantly face complications and setbacks. Daenerys is getting better at turning those into opportunities and forward momentum. If she's victorious, it's going to be hard-won.

Also, I think we really needed to see proof that the Dothroki are 100% with her. Yes, this was a very theatrical and chest-thumping way to do it, but that's precisely what the Dothraki respond to. Daenerys's talk about Khal Drogo wasn't for nothing; she's getting back to her roots, culturally and spiritually, to the point of delivering a new version of Khal Drogo's speech. I thought it was powerful and completely substantive.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

He's Jon's R&D guy for white walkers, so I think Sam is going to be crucial. Assuming he does get to the citadel, he'll no doubt discover a few key secrets. I hope he can design his own major, because there are specific things he needs to be studying right now.

Maybe he learns about wildfire and gets the idea to use it against the dead. (Then he convinces Jon that they need the wildfire from King's Landing?) Sam will surely discover Jon's parentage, right? I'd like a montage of Sam figuring that out combined with Bran seeing the conclusion of his Tower of Joy vision. (Although, Bran's quickfire vision in this episode has some major hints.)

The prevailing theory is that Jorah (now on a knowledge-finding mission) will meet Samwell in the Citadel, and this is what will eventually bring Daenerys and Jon together.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on May 31, 2016, 06:30:31 PM
(Margaery) is a bit of a mystery to me right now. What's really going on there? I'd wager it's a cynical play to get maximum power for herself, but that's so dark. Shutting out her family and potentially collapsing House Tyrell? Is she that dark? Is that even a smart move?

Margaery is probably the craftiest character in the entire story to this point. I think she's recognized that direct opposition to the church is doomed to failure, and she recognized the craving for power in the High Sparrow's little origin story he regaled her with a couple weeks ago. The smart play for her, and she is a smart player, is to let him have that power, at least temporarily. The question remains, can she maintain control over the strategy, or is the High Sparrow even more cunning than she gives him credit for? My money's on the latter.

Are there any theories out there where the Samwell stuff pays off in an interesting way? Serious questions. Because I've been hating those scenes lately. It was interesting to see his family, but I don't understand why I'm supposed to care.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sam gets a hero arc similar to Neville Longbottom in the Harry Potter series. He's steadily gathering courage, he's probably the most single-mindedly good and kind person in this entire story universe, and now he has a motherfucking Valyrian steel sword. Sam is 100% going to have a major role in the climax of this story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2016, 12:11:55 PM
Margaery
The first thing I noticed when they were at the temple's steps is that she had her hair untouched, then it became clear why, this was a power play on her part, I'm not entirely convinced she's ‘really’ turned to the faith but what I don't think will happen is that she will betray her family, all these events seem to be going to fulfill Cersei's prophecy and she loses everything, speaking of…


Cersei
So her champion will be the mountain, no surprise there, but I wonder who will be the Sparrow’s…and I think it could be Loras, that's going to be his atonement. Although I read a spoilery rumor of someone else that could be the Sparrow's champion...whoever ends up facing the mountain who is practically a zombie, my money is on the Sparrow's champion defeating him (it) and so Cersei is doomed…


Arya
There's no way Arya is staying with the faceless guys, right? She does not seem comfortable killing random people for money, nor does she seem to have any deep belief in this Many-Faced God. I mean, this is actually a fairly sinister thing that she should probably get away from. It is literally a death cult. I assume she's just going to use her training for her own purposes once she inevitably splits.
Good prediction JB. So now the question is, where will she go? And if the faceless are after her she is pretty much doomed, maybe not this season (I hope) but eventually she will die, right?


Sam
Yet another terrible father that has his head so far up his ass he can't fucking see how smart is his son and sometimes that is better than brute force.
Sam's story isn't boring to me actually, in fact I'm curious what will happen when he gets to the citadel, how the Maesters will receive him (them), what will they say when he shares his knowledge about whitewalkers, wights, dragon glass, valyrian steel…
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2016, 12:30:02 PM
I recently heard a theory that Jaqen is simultaneously (or even primarily) testing the Waif. This assignment seemed specifically designed so that Arya would reject it. Jaqen already knew what would happen, and he knew Arya would not be staying with them. The Waif, meanwhile, does actually need to be tested. She is getting way too emotionally invested.

You can go further with this. "She has a point" could be slyly referring to Needle. "Shame... a girl has many gifts" could be referring (in disappointment) to the Waif, not Arya.

Maybe Jaqen also simply wants to see who is the superior assassin. Although even when Arya inevitably wins, he'll need a reason to let her go. The fact that a face has been added to the hall either way (paraphrasing Jaqen) might be enough.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 01, 2016, 02:14:20 PM
 :shock: :yabbse-smiley:

I love your theory to death, and we need it to be true. Otherwise, if we take the conversation between Jaqen and the Waif literally, Arya is doomed and will be dead no matter what.

one question, I watched that conversation (J&W) again and 'she has a point' isn't mentioned, did that happen in another episode?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 01, 2016, 02:39:04 PM
I watched that conversation (J&W) again and 'she has a point' isn't mentioned, did that happen in another episode?

Yeah, that happened last week. The Waif says to Arya "you'll never be one of us" and Jaqen adds "she has a point." Then he walks into the other room and explains that the faceless men were poor, they founded Braavos, etc.

Speaking of which, who would want to live in Braavos? At its center is this unaccountable death cult who could be hired at any time to assassinate you.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 05, 2016, 11:19:05 PM
Margaery is truly next-level. It's actually a shame that she's going to lose King's Landing in the end. Maybe she escapes and hooks up with Littlefinger.

I just saw a theory that she will try to seduce the High Septon. Wouldn't that be nuts? If she could actually do that, it might work. I wonder what her time scale is; I imagine her subterfuge needs to be carried out before Loras confesses. She absolutely intends to get Tommen killed, right? What do people think she's planning?

Generally loved the episode. I'm completely and utterly under the show's spell this season. I felt physical pain when I saw the episode was ending in 20 minutes.

That's all for now, but I'm sure I'll have more to say this week.

Quibbles:

- The director of this episode needs to learn how to have people interrupt each other. Rule #1, do not have the first speaker trail off before they get interrupted. You failed before we even got to Rule #2.

- Arya getting stabbed has very little impact, because there is absolutely no chance she's dying right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 06, 2016, 08:04:26 AM
Margaery is truly next-level. It's actually a shame that she's going to lose King's Landing in the end. Maybe she escapes and hooks up with Littlefinger.

I just saw a theory that she will try to seduce the High Septon. Wouldn't that be nuts? If she could actually do that, it might work. I wonder what her time scale is; I imagine her subterfuge needs to be carried out before Loras confesses. She absolutely intends to get Tommen killed, right? What do people think she's planning?

It would pretty crushing/awesome if High Sparrow never believed her at all in the first place and just wants to see where she's going with her plan- and in the end he reveals that he knew her game from the start and wipes her out and the other Tyrells.

I'm not sure she intends to kill Tommen. I definitely think she wants High Sparrow killed and his troops rendered powerless.
I think she wants a situation where her family is safe and she and Tommen rule without any influence from High Sparrow or any remaining Lannisters. She can easily manipulate Tommen so in this scenario, she would technically be the most powerful person in Westeros. Pretty fair endgame for her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 07, 2016, 01:10:53 PM
I've seen a few people missing this, so I'll throw it in. The Tyrell sigil is a rose, and their house words are "growing stronger." So the meaning of Margaery's note was crystal clear: hang in there, I have a plan, and I'm doing it for the Tyrells. The show also tipped us off that she was 100% sincere, because she almost cried when saying goodbye to Olenna.

Here's the logic problem for me right now, though. Presumably part of Margaery's plan is conceive a boy with Tommen. And the conventional wisdom is that he'll die by the end of this season. How can she be sure that's happened in that amount of time? Also, how can she possibly execute her plan before Loras is forced to confess? I'm seeing a long-term plan with short-term obstacles... or maybe I'm not seeing it at all.

Margaery seducing the High Septon is legitimately one of her best options — although that would be so difficult to pull off that if she does, we should just declare her the winner of the whole game of thrones.

Her best play is to disgrace or delegitimize the High Septon in some way. So I guess this is my prediction. Margaery first leverages her popularity and her reputation as a champion of the people. Maybe she starts an initiative to help the poor, to butter them up. Then, she exposes a financial or moral scandal within the church. It could be a discovery, but it's more likely that she frames them. For example, she could tearfully reveal to Tommen that the High Septon sexually assaulted her, and/or that she saw him assault Loras or something. That could then be revealed in the public square, with the king at her side, and the people would physically support them in removing the church from power.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 07, 2016, 11:45:21 PM
Margaery
Her story got really interesting, she's playing the long con and probably will work, but, like you said if the Sparrow is on her this will blow up on her (their) faces beautifully.

I didn't get what that rose meant, so...of those theories I don't see Tommen getting killed by Tyrell hands, and if he does and even if she's pregnant, what is the protocol here? There are no more Baratheons to take the throne, so, would her uncle Kevan rules until the baby is born? and it has to be a boy or else they're fucked...

While i like your theory of the Septon being tempted by Margaery, I also don't see him falling for that play.

As for your prediction it sounds good, but I wonder if with three episodes left there's enough time to see an outcome.

Cersei vs Queen of Thorns
This was my favorite scene of the episode, I even felt bad for Cersei, I want her to have at least one more triumph, but it seems that whatever she does she won't win in the end.


Sansa
She's writing Littlefinger right? They are way too short on men and he already offered and they are running out of houses to support them.

Arya
I'm pretty confident that she will live, and yes that stabbing scene didn't have a huge impact.


The Hound
He lives! Who killed all those people? The brotherhood? That doesn't make sense, they were harmless. This story doesn't make much sense to me, we'll see where they take the hound.

Spoilery speculation, there's talk that the Hound could be the one that fights his brother, but how will he get there? also he's wanted for treason so...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2016, 11:35:34 AM
The season finale is 69 minutes long, which will technically be the longest GoT episode to date.

Re: Fernando

I'm starting to think Tommen will survive this season, because (1) Margaery conceiving a male heir with Tommen is too important and (2) Tommen is still useful to her as a chess piece. But that all supposes that things will go her way.

Yes, we're supposed to understand that the Brotherhood Without Banners — maybe even just those 3 guys — killed those people. This apparently suggests that the Brotherhood has become corrupt, because they used to protect the "small folk," right? Or they're under the command of a very cold-hearted new leader.

I'm also convinced that Sansa is enlisting Littlefinger's help. I would have preferred him riding in without permission to save the day, but I guess that's already been done by Stannis.

There are some very wacky theories about Arya right now. One is that the Arya we saw is actually Jaqen, and that the Waif failed his test rather spectacularly (twisting the knife etc.). He will then enlist Arya to kill the Waif. Not sure I believe this, but it's interesting.

And now, the craziest theory I've heard all season: When Qyburn reanimated the Mountain, he used Joffrey's head. This would explain his purple face and blue eyes. Of course if that's true, it must be revealed to Cersei at some point in the most horrifying way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on June 10, 2016, 04:58:03 PM

And now, the craziest theory I've heard all season: When Qyburn reanimated the Mountain, he used Joffrey's head. This would explain his purple face and blue eyes. Of course if that's true, it must be revealed to Cersei at some point in the most horrifying way.

This is bonkers. Joffrey's head wouldn't be that big even if you stuffed FOUR cabbages into it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 10, 2016, 05:25:59 PM
I dunno, poisoned heads can get very bloated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on June 10, 2016, 07:27:42 PM
My god that would be terrifying.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 11, 2016, 09:56:22 PM
That Joffrey theory is crazy, the show hasn't made any allusions that it could happen, also Qyburn isn't that evil on the show and he seems to really like Cersei, so no way it will happen but if it does, it will be the greatest reveal ever and Cersei would certainly loose her mind.

There are some very wacky theories about Arya right now. One is that the Arya we saw is actually Jaqen, and that the Waif failed his test rather spectacularly (twisting the knife etc.). He will then enlist Arya to kill the Waif. Not sure I believe this, but it's interesting.

That would be amazing, but I really don't have any clue how and who will save her, only that it will happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 12, 2016, 11:00:04 PM
Alright, so the end of Arya's faceless arc didn't get weird. They exercised a lot of artistic license letting her survive the severe gut wound (did the actress patch up her intestines?), but otherwise it followed the most logical and straightforward path, which is probably for the best.

You can go further with this. "She has a point" could be slyly referring to Needle. "Shame... a girl has many gifts" could be referring (in disappointment) to the Waif, not Arya.

Maybe Jaqen also simply wants to see who is the superior assassin. Although even when Arya inevitably wins, he'll need a reason to let her go. The fact that a face has been added to the hall either way (paraphrasing Jaqen) might be enough.

^ I think that turned out to be true. Jaqen did not seem especially surprised — if he had any emotion at all, it was delight. Side note: it was brilliant how the Waif was so excited running after Arya, then at the end she looked sad the chase was over.

This episode was so much fun. Everything with Jaime and Brienne, Podrich and Bronn, the Hound and the brotherhood, the Mountain and that poor headless man. I was once again dreading the end of the episode. Just wanted to live in this world forever.

The politics feel just as compelling as the action right now. Everything that happened at Riverrun was fascinating and illuminated how hierarchies and titles can lead to very absurd results.

Is it just me, or was this episode visually striking in a very satisfying and meaningful way? That opening close-up of the actress. That shot of Tommen walking away from the throne. The cramped feeling of the Mountain/faith confrontation. That perfectly-framed overhead shot of Arya tumbling down the stairs with oranges and apples.

In retrospect, it seems inevitable that the Faith would end trials by combat. In addition to giving them the edge over Cersei, this also brings the justice system more in line with their style.

So, the rumor. To begin, here's a transcript of that part:

- Your grace. That old rumor you told me about. My little birds investigated.
- And? Is it just a rumor, or something more?
- More. Much more.

"Old rumor" is the giveaway. It has to be about Aerys's hidden caches of wildfire. We've already seen them in Bran's vision. And Jaime, less than 10 minutes later, says this of Catelyn and Cersei: "They'd do anything to save their babies: start a war, burn cities to ash..." I just wonder who would actually deploy the wildfire. The spy kids?

Ideally, her effort should be unsuccessful. Yes, it would weaken King's Landing for the taking, but they probably need that wildfire to defeat the White Walkers. So can Margaery stop her somehow?

As for Mereen... Doesn't this seem like the absolute ideal result? The slavers are bringing their forces to Daenerys, so she can conveniently defeat them once and for all. (Unfortunately, lacking a navy, it looks like they'll have to wait for the attackers to get off the boats before they can actually engage.)

Varys heading off to find ships is veeeery interesting. He's obviously going to the Iron Islands. So, a prediction. Yara & Theon bring ships, Daenerys accepts. Varys brings the rest of the ships and Euron Greyjoy. He will of course be furious that Yara & Theon have already formed the alliance, but surely he'll have anticipated that and come up with some sort of plan. Yara will have warned Dany about Euron, right? So his plan fails, as does his marriage proposal. Daenerys takes his ships.

Man, she's going to have so many ships. Yara's ships, Euron's brand new ships, and the slavers' ships, presumably.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 13, 2016, 12:26:50 AM
I'm generally pleased by the resolution of the Faceless Men storyline, but I was really hoping there would be some crafty explanation for why Arya was acting so insanely reckless and oblivious just prior to her assassination attempt, and not, as turns out to be the case, that the writers just decided she should suddenly be reckless and oblivious even though she knows there's a goddamn ninja death cult with a bounty on her head (or face, as the case may be). I can accept a lot of things in fiction right up to the point where a character acts in a way that contradicts our own extensive understanding of the character. There are a thousand ways they could have put her on that bridge without resorting to making the character suddenly and inexplicably dumb.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 13, 2016, 02:36:35 AM
I never cared for the Faceless Men component of Arya's storyline and I was less than satisfied with the conclusion. Apart from the bizarre beahvior that lead to her the stabbing I'm struggling with her swift recovery, her parkour skills and then the actual conclusion with Jaquen. Was it...supposed to lead somewhere worthwhile? It would have made sense if she ended up some heartless faceless ninja person but she outright defies it and plans to go home. It just seems like a pointless detour. Will the faceless dudes ever turn up again or what? What was truly imparted on Arya except 'nah, this lifestyle isn't for me'?
At least now I know that The Waif would make for a really good Terminator.

Riverrun was quite good and a teensy bit disappointing. Besides the whole Jaimie still in love with Cersei thing, we saw some pretty good character work/acting from all the important players. It is satisfying to see Jaimie kinda moving forward with his character (patiently waiting until he finally severs ties with Cersei). Pretty disappointed by the Blackfish's conclusion even though he would go out fighting.
Shoutout to the dude who plays Edmure, he was a highlight.

That joke scene in Mereen was painful. Bloody hell, it's so upsetting to see Tyrion get sucked further into the Daenerys boredom-spiral. And now Varys is gone which makes it worse. I hope that Theon and Yara can inject some life into that storyline. To me, Theon/Alfie Allen is one of the best things about the show.

Favourite part (beside's Jaimie's negotiations) was The Hound meeting up with The Brotherhood. Love the idea of him joining up and heading up north to fight the WWs. Cleganebowl be damned.

I reckon Cersei's gonna use hidden wildfire and challenge High Sparrow/Tommen, but then her scheme will backfire and a bunch of people will die and King's Landing will end up in a nasty state.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2016, 12:42:27 PM
I agree with Polka; Arya's obliviousness while ostensibly being "on the run" was probably this season's major misstep. However, I thought the way it ended was totally fine...

Was it...supposed to lead somewhere worthwhile? It would have made sense if she ended up some heartless faceless ninja person but she outright defies it and plans to go home. It just seems like a pointless detour. Will the faceless dudes ever turn up again or what? What was truly imparted on Arya except 'nah, this lifestyle isn't for me'?

Were the series ending right now, sure it would be a pointless detour. But this is definitely setting up something important, maybe crucially important.

She hasn't made a reversal at all. Like I was saying before, Arya got what she needed, assassin training. That's all she ever wanted from Jaqen, and she got it. (And she left on good terms, because a face was added to the wall "either way," which Jaqen himself predicted.) She was never interested in the god of death or becoming an automaton. Arya kills for reasons; that's her thing.

In terms of what's next: "I am Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home" is a pretty strong indication of her sense of purpose. The question is, will she actually go home to Winterfell and be like "hey guys I'm a super assassin now, who do y'all need offed?" Or will she continue on her rogue's path, sowing death and chaos among the Starks' enemies?

Furthermore, does the magic of putting on a face carry with her? Does she actually have that power going forward? That hasn't been made clear yet — or if it was, I don't recall. (Since Jaqen tells her "a girl is finally no one," I'm leaning towards yes.) If she gets to keep that, she'll be absolutely unstoppable. If not, she can still kill dudes in the dark real good.

That joke scene in Mereen was painful. Bloody hell, it's so upsetting to see Tyrion get sucked further into the Daenerys boredom-spiral. And now Varys is gone which makes it worse.

I think that was the point, though. These people are from such vastly different cultures, and they haven't really done battle together or anything, so forming a bond takes a reeeaally long time. (And to be fair, he made significant progress!) As savvy and charismatic as Tyrion is (or thinks he is), they are all a bit lost without Daenerys. There's nothing to center them. Her arrival was so desperately welcome at the end of that scene, which seems to be what they were going for.

But you're right, Tyrion has yet to shine as Daenerys's advisor. And he's weaker without Varys. So that's not great. I have patience, though. Surely his instinct for military tactics (which is legitimately sharp and actually proven) will come into play.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 13, 2016, 06:58:50 PM
Beyond her getting elite assassin skills, the payoff just seems so underwhelming- especially considering the amount of time that was spent on that particular storyline. I'm happy that she reaffirmed her identity but I'm still pretty displeased with how things were handled. I'm hoping that the consequences of this storyline will gradually manifest itself in the coming seasons- with Jaquen's final 'a girl is finally no one etc' having a meaning that she doesn't understand yet. But I'm not holding my breath.

I think that was the point, though. These people are from such vastly different cultures, and they haven't really done battle together or anything, so forming a bond takes a reeeaally long time. (And to be fair, he made significant progress!) As savvy and charismatic as Tyrion is (or thinks he is), they are all a bit lost without Daenerys. There's nothing to center them. Her arrival was so desperately welcome at the end of that scene, which seems to be what they were going for.

Yeah, I thought that the scene was attempting to bring the three together- I swear they've already demonstrated their awkward dynamic before in a similar manner in a previous scene. But I think the scene was supposed to be almost heartwarming (by the end) but I was left cringing instead. Probably just demonstrating some sort of human connection before killing 1 of the 3 off.
Tyrion has had a dull season. He's a superb character but he definitely becomes stagnant without a constantly moving world/conflict. Fairly realistic depiction of a depressed alcoholic though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 13, 2016, 07:37:11 PM
Hmm, yeah, I think that's all pretty fair. I've been skeptical of Arya's storyline for a very long time. But I've learned that the show can have surprising payoffs. So as long as the character in question is not locked in a rape room being abused for shock value, I make an effort to be open-minded.

Arya's quest has been so thoroughly baked into the show from the beginning, that in my mind an epic payoff is becoming less of a hope and more of an assumption.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 19, 2016, 10:09:14 PM
BEST. EPISODE. EVER.

Those are all the words I have right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 19, 2016, 11:18:16 PM
Most people seem to be loving this episode. However, I’ve seen the Sansa vs. Jon business being criticized, i.e. why in God’s name didn’t she tell him?

It was a risky choice for sure, but I think this episode made it abundantly clear that when it comes to military strategy, Jon Snow most definitely knows nothing. He was unwilling to listen to Sansa’s advice (even after she called him out on that). Namely, (1) that Rickon is dead no matter what and (2) that Ramsay would set an irresistible trap. Both came to pass, and Jon was a gullible idiot.

The only way to defeat Ramsay was with an actual surprise attack. Because these are the alternatives:


Scenario #1

INT. JON’S WAR TENT - DUSK

Sansa: So check this out. Littlefinger’s army is totally… maybe… on its way. I think.

Jon: Uhh…

Sansa: No confirmation yet. Sorry.

Jon: What are you on about, girl?

Sansa: Baelish is totes on his way. Do I have to say it a third time?

Jon: Even if he is, we can’t trust him.

Jon (whispering to Davos): That’s his thing, right?

Davos (whispering back): Aye, Jon. I’ve heard he’s an untrustworthy fellow.

Sansa: Bro, trust me, I have a feeling. My instincts are razor sharp for real.

Jon: Nope.

Sansa: Yuh huh! Just wait one more day, pleeease?

Jon: He’s probably going to betray us and turn the battle in Ramsay’s favor. Eff that. We’re attacking at first light!

Sansa: *Sigh*

Jon: For the North! *Runs out of the tent waving his sword around*


Scenario #2

The Knights of the Vale combine forces with Jon’s army. Ramsay sees this, and being a very smart strategist, he keeps his forces inside Winterfell. They now have what is possibly an insurmountable advantage. The Knights of the Vale were enough to finish off the Boltons, but were they enough to actually siege Winterfell against an endless barrage of arrows and who knows what else? Not likely.

Feels like this was the way to win. Their victory was basically dependent upon Jon being dumb and Sansa being smart. (In fact, they make a pretty good combination.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 12:30:40 AM
A BRIEF ASIDE (and yes, I'm sure I'll make even more posts). The AV Club "expert" review of this ep is absolutely confounding. Commenters are equally confused. I don't know if I've more fully disagreed with anything in... months?

In a nutshell, the reviewer wanted more subtlety and thought the battle was overblown, reaching for spectacle where none was necessary. He also did not like that there were emotional and thematic payoffs — because he doesn't remember the suffering that dominated last season? Because he doesn't realize that we're approaching the end of this whole story, so payoffs are going to happen? (Does he want any payoffs at all in this thing, or does he want it to fizzle out and collapse on itself in a heap of defeated sadness?)

Anyway, don't read the review, but do read these epic responses from the comments:



* * * * *

Yeah, this was an okay episode, but it really could've used a few more thematically rich pastoral elegies. Also, it was really inconsistent in its application of Plutarchan love sonnets, which I know about because I went to TV Critic School and therefore demand to see more of on Game of Thrones.

* * * * *

"But, as the title of the review suggests, to what end? If we think about “Battle Of The Bastards” in context of its three predecessors, I’m not convinced that this battle ends up accomplishing much of anything beyond sound and fury. "

I knew it. I fucking knew it. One of the best episodes of TV ever and Myles nitpicks it for not pandering to whatever vague, needlessly dense academic theory he wanted to apply to it.

Myles, let me explain criticism to you: There's academic criticism, where you stare at a blank wall until patterns begin to emerge and you write six thousand pages about the patterns you saw as though that accurately portrays what you saw, and there's functional criticism, which is when you and your friends watch The Force Awakens and say it was awesome because it was fun and had great characters and dialogue.

You ask "To what end?". Welp, off the top of my head:

1) To advance and consolidate crucial plot elements, including the restoration of Stark power for the first time since Season 1 (This is kind of important)

2) To set up future story elements including, most likely, Littlefinger's power grab.

3) To take advantage of this narrative opportunity to have huge, visceral, awesome battle.

4) To explore how the characters would react in such circumstances.

Advance the plot, reveal the characters, have a fun time doing both. Boom. That's criticism. No need to masturbate to thematically rich pastoral elegies, complete with links to Wikipedia articles because you know no one caught that reference.

If you reviewed Star Wars, you'd ask if we needed a lightsaber duel with Darth Vader, or criticize Raiders of the Lost Ark for inconsistently applying its theme of Homelessness.

* * * * *

Man, I've always been in general agreement with McNutt. I think he is a very astute critic and consistently engages with this show at a much higher level than most other TV reviewers on this site (or really anywhere). But I deeply disagree with this reading.

I think this show has reached the point where the good guy defeating the bad guy is not cliche, but rather a narrative subversion. I can't be the only one who fully expected Ramsay to survive this episode, and for the "good guys" to suffer far more significant casualties than they did. This isn't a boring, predictable result of a hero v. villain battle. This is John Snow finally clawing his way out from underneath the bodies crushing him - the first gasp of hope in a series that goes out of its way to show you how hope is futile.

* * * * *

Sorry, I couldn't hear this B grade over the sounds of me shipping Yara and Daenerys so hard.

* * * * *
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 20, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
I'm not sure if it was the best episode ever (I like episode 7 a lot, despite Arya's stupidity) but this was really, really good. After a whole lot of setting and building up, it's nice to have that big 'release episode'.

- That's the best battle scenes I've seen in a very long time. The part where Jon was getting crushed was really intense, almost had some trouble breathing myself. All medieval battle scenes should aspire to the sheer chaos and brutality of the one in this episode. Truly exceptional.

- Jon is a god-level warrior but a pretty lame tactician by the looks of things (or he's a bit easy to emotionally compromise). But seriously, come on Sansa, at least let Jonny know about the Vale dudes coming. They both kinda let down the team here.
Or maybe Sansa was willing to let Jon die for her battle plan to succeed. I wonder if there will be a point where Jon becomes merely an obstacle to her.
 
- I'm so glad that Davos finally learned the truth. Another superb scene. Patiently waiting for him to cut Melisandre to pieces.

 - Mereen was pretty great too aside from that weirdly smug Yara and Theon scene. But even that scene had purpose to it and we're  getting closer and closer to bridging the two worlds.
The dragon attack looked fantastic and I also liked Tyrion's presence in this one.

- Must have been hell tyring to shoot this episode.

- Poor Rickon didn't have any dialogue in this one- his last one either. Kinda unfortunate how little we saw of him over the duration of the show.

- While Littlefinger's support was valuable in this episode, I'm very nervous thinking about what he plans to do next. I'm hoping this more active Sansa will find a way to stay out of his control.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 20, 2016, 08:54:58 AM
Best episode ever? I thought it was immediately after it finished. It might very well not be, but it definitely feels like the best episode we've had for 2-3 seasons at least. Wonderfully directed too.

Love the epic scope of everything - the giant battle in Mereen, the giant battle in Winterfell. All the piece-placing episodes are finally paying off. And if this is how GoT pays things off, it gives me a lot of hope for the final two shortened seasons, which I had been regarding with some trepidation knowing that we were getting toward the end.

The bridges between stories are *finally* being built and it feels like the train is just going to keep on accelerating to the end from here on out.

JB, you hit the nail on the head with your analysis of why Sansa didn't tell Jon.

Also, this: "This is John Snow finally clawing his way out from underneath the bodies crushing him - the first gasp of hope in a series that goes out of its way to show you how hope is futile."

I feel lucky that I hadn't watched for a few weeks so caught up with the past two eps on Friday and Saturday so I could watch this one live. It definitely felt like this run had a vitality and momentum that was absent in some of this season's earlier episodes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 11:08:43 AM
I'm not sure if it was the best episode ever (I like episode 7 a lot, despite Arya's stupidity) but this was really, really good.
Best episode ever? I thought it was immediately after it finished. It might very well not be, but it definitely feels like the best episode we've had for 2-3 seasons at least. Wonderfully directed too.

I might still be filled with adrenaline, but the next day I basically feel the same. This is in my top 3 for sure, assuming I could actually come up with a list. Certainly there have been more mindblowing moments in other episodes. But this one does stand apart as being densely packed with things that I love about the show, from beginning to end, executed almost perfectly. It offered such sublime pleasure over and over again, with those deep feelings of victory and dread combining intensely and endlessly. This was one of the most profound television experiences I've had. The opening chapter with Daenerys turned me into malleable mush, and the rest of the episode just had its way with me.

But seriously, come on Sansa, at least let Jonny know about the Vale dudes coming. They both kinda let down the team here. Or maybe Sansa was willing to let Jon die for her battle plan to succeed. I wonder if there will be a point where Jon becomes merely an obstacle to her.

I think my post above is a decent response to those concerns, but I also think you're right — Sansa was determined to take Winterfell back, pretty much at any cost. She has a clearer view of reality than most characters in this series (her point about Rickon being a good example) and has no time for sentimentality anymore. Jon, even with all he's been through, seems to possess half of her intelligence and emotional fortitude.

I never, ever, ever thought they could justify Sansa being locked in a rape room for several episodes, but by God, they might have just done it. I literally don't see how the book can bring Sansa's character to the same place without her involvement with Ramsay. My biggest problem with this whole series appears to be fading away before my eyes, and I did not expect that to happen.

To your point, I think Jon will get out of the way. Sansa will rule Winterfell, most likely with Littlefinger at her side in some capacity. Jon will do what he does best — fight the white walkers.

While Littlefinger's support was valuable in this episode, I'm very nervous thinking about what he plans to do next. I'm hoping this more active Sansa will find a way to stay out of his control.

I think it's in his immediate self-interest to put his betrayal spree on hold and earn the Starks' trust for a minute. Obviously what he did in this ep was the first step in that direction. Of course he will try to cause more chaos... but wouldn't it be fun to see Sansa get one step ahead of him?

Must have been hell tyring to shoot this episode.

If you haven't seen them, the making-of features on HBO Now are fantastic. They publish one with every even-numbered episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 11:40:10 AM
Oh, and Sansa is for sure pregnant with Ramsey's kid. "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now." I honestly can't think of what the benefit of that storyline would be, or where they imagine they're going to go with it, but regardless, they're going there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 12:07:12 PM
Oh, and Sansa is for sure pregnant with Ramsey's kid. "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now." I honestly can't think of what the benefit of that storyline would be, or where they imagine they're going to go with it, but regardless, they're going there.

I was worried about that for a second, but I really don't think so — especially because of Sansa's reaction. She wasn't fazed at all. She is in a better position to know whether she's pregnant (especially considering the time they've been apart), but she tells him pointedly that his words will die, his house will die, and no one will remember him. Her knowingly being pregnant would so weirdly undercut her moment of victory that I think we'd see evidence of that.

I think Ramsay simply means that the way he tormented her and changed her means that he will always be a part of her, which is absolutely true, and which Sansa described to Littlefinger. I don't think it's the writers winking at us in any significant way, because that'd be such a gross and counterproductive thing to do in that moment. Would they really think that's a good idea, creatively or otherwise, considering the widespread backlash they experienced after Sansa's wedding night?

More evidence to the contrary. Ramsay doesn't rape Sansa in the books, so giving her a child by him would be so off-story that it would probably be stretching too far in terms of book-to-show changes. Because her producing an heir to Winterfell with Ramsay's blood simply changes too much.

(If she is pregnant, either it results in the first Stark abortion or I turn against Sansa's story again.)

Update: Found this comment: "Abortion does exist in GoT, it's called "Moon Tea" and it has been established in the show since Lysa mentions drinking it to abort Petyr's baby."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 04:04:29 PM
I would be thrilled to be wrong, but there's very little doubt in my mind at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 20, 2016, 04:13:10 PM
I agree entirely with the AV Club review so I'll just disappear.  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 05:05:17 PM
Oh, and Sansa is for sure pregnant with Ramsey's kid. "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now." I honestly can't think of what the benefit of that storyline would be, or where they imagine they're going to go with it, but regardless, they're going there.

I was worried about that for a second, but I really don't think so — especially because of Sansa's reaction. She wasn't fazed at all. She is in a better position to know whether she's pregnant (especially considering the time they've been apart), but she tells him pointedly that his words will die, his house will die, and no one will remember him. Her knowingly being pregnant would so weirdly undercut her moment of victory that I think we'd see evidence of that.

I think Ramsay simply means that the way he tormented her and changed her means that he will always be a part of her, which is absolutely true, and which Sansa described to Littlefinger. I don't think it's the writers winking at us in any significant way, because that'd be such a gross and counterproductive thing to do in that moment. Would they really think that's a good idea, creatively or otherwise, considering the widespread backlash they experienced after Sansa's wedding night?

More evidence to the contrary. Ramsay doesn't rape Sansa in the books, so giving her a child by him would be so off-story that it would probably be stretching too far in terms of book-to-show changes. Because her producing an heir to Winterfell with Ramsay's blood simply changes too much.

Yes, there's no way she's pregnant, in fact it isn't possible because when she ran away it took her probably weeks to reach the wall, then she stayed there probably a couple, then they travel a lot trying to gain support of different houses and that had to take weeks if not months, then gather the army, plan the attack and reach again Winterfell, so even if I'm being conservative it's been at least three months since she saw Ramsey and my real guess is at least six months have passed...


But seriously, come on Sansa, at least let Jonny know about the Vale dudes coming. They both kinda let down the team here. Or maybe Sansa was willing to let Jon die for her battle plan to succeed. I wonder if there will be a point where Jon becomes merely an obstacle to her.

I think my post above is a decent response to those concerns, but I also think you're right — Sansa was determined to take Winterfell back, pretty much at any cost. She has a clearer view of reality than most characters in this series (her point about Rickon being a good example) and has no time for sentimentality anymore. Jon, even with all he's been through, seems to possess half of her intelligence and emotional fortitude.

It's because Sansa has learned from the best/worst, their triumphs and mistakes of Cersei, LF and knowing what Ramsey is capable of.
I too thought that Rickon was doomed no matter what and as painful as that was she understood and planned for the best (real) outcome.

To your point, I think Jon will get out of the way. Sansa will rule Winterfell, most likely with Littlefinger at her side in some capacity. Jon will do what he does best — fight the white walkers.

Agree, it seems there’s no point he stays there, question is, will he leave immediately or wait for some news from Castle Black that he and his wildlings are needed, that will be interesting, as for Sansa, she has Winterfell now and…what’s next? Will LF still want her to marry the little lord of the Vale? I hope and expect she will take control of things and ultimately she will decide for herself, she cannot go back and let people decide her future.

- I'm so glad that Davos finally learned the truth. Another superb scene. Patiently waiting for him to cut Melisandre to pieces.

No! It’s crazy but I love her character even if she burnt a little girl, I fear for her life and I don’t want her to die, I wonder if it comes to that Jon will interfere so Davos doesn’t kill her, in fact she's among my top 5 characters in the show so I hope she makes it.



Given that now we’re approaching the conclusion I fear less about losing ‘the good’ characters (Starks, Tyrion, Dany), I don’t mean all will live happily no, just that they will survive to be at the final showdown, some against white walkers others at Kingslanding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 05:09:48 PM
I would be thrilled to be wrong, but there's very little doubt in my mind at this point.

"Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear."

She has no sense of irony while saying this, and I don't think she's delusional, so I don't think she's pregnant. Unless this is prelude to an episode of I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant on TLC Westeros. Bottom line, this would be dumb, and I'm pretty convinced the writers are not making dumb choices right now.

Ramsay's words being literal there would be the stupidest thing all season. Not only because that plot development is a bad choice, but because it undercuts the thematic meaning of that sequence — that Sansa is indeed changed by Ramsay and in the last moment of the episode takes pleasure in killing for the very first time. (Which is arguably more upsetting than a pregnancy.)

For that to be displaced by "oops, I'm preggers" is the kind of self-sabotage the writers are surely not interested in.

Not to mention, as you said, there's no beneficial or interesting direction for this to take. It's a narrative dead end. Because Sansa is absolutely not having Ramsay's baby. This would be that plot in its entirety:


Sansa: Dude, guess what, I'm pregnant! This really sucks.

Littlefinger: Oh my God. Sansa, I can't begin to comprehend what this must —

Sansa: Do you have access to Moon Tea or not?

Littlefinger: Why, yes. I have some in my satchel. There you are. Now, it must be taken according to dir—

Sansa: *Gulp*

Littlefinger: Oh. So uhh. Are you okay?

Sansa: Listen. I just watched thousands of people being slaughtered. None of this is great. And this... pregnancy... is obviously something I thought might happen. So thank you for being prepared. Let's move on.

Littlefinger: Well. Alright. *shuffles papers* Here's the update on Riverrun...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
Yes, there's no way she's pregnant, in fact it isn't possible because when she ran away it took her probably weeks to reach the wall, then she stayed there probably a couple, then they travel a lot trying to gain support of different houses and that had to take weeks if not months, then gather the army, plan the attack and reach again Winterfell, so even if I'm being conservative it's been at least three months since she saw Ramsey and my real guess is at least six months have passed...

Ah right, good call. Also for time scale, think of how much plot transpired with Ramsay in Winterfell during that time. Assassinating Roose Bolton et al., gathering new allies and consolidating his power, preparing his army, sending letters, etc. Also, Littlefinger's journey to and from the Vale takes place after Sansa's escape.


It's because Sansa has learned from the best/worst, their triumphs and mistakes of Cersei, LF and knowing what Ramsey is capable of.

That's a great point. Being dragged around the seven kingdoms as everyone's pawn / punching bag has yielded some benefits. She's seen so much of the world and its rulers, and she's been paying attention.

Agree, it seems there’s no point he stays there, question is, will he leave immediately or wait for some news from Castle Black that he and his wildlings are needed, that will be interesting, as for Sansa, she has Winterfell now and…what’s next? Will LF still want her to marry the little lord of the Vale? I hope and expect she will take control of things and ultimately she will decide for herself, she cannot go back and let people decide her future.

I assume Jon and Bran have to converge at some point in their battle against the white walkers. With Sam hopefully not far behind.

I don't think Sansa is marrying anyone anytime soon. And I don't think she would get any pushback on that from anyone at this point.

This is perhaps the Sansa quote of the episode, after Jon promises to protect her: "No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone."

There's a theory that this is a clever allusion to Arya ("no one") and foreshadowing that Arya might in fact come home and protect the Starks in this tumultuous time.

Given that now we’re approaching the conclusion I fear less about losing ‘the good’ characters (Starks, Tyrion, Dany), I don’t mean all will live happily no, just that they will survive to be at the final showdown, some against white walkers others at Kingslanding.

I'm on the same page. I think we're going to see a few more Starks die for sure, but probably not until they've fought honorably in "the war to come." When all of that goes down, the show could kill anyone, really, and that's alright. I think the only character who's guaranteed to survive is Daenerys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on June 20, 2016, 05:46:54 PM
All right, you guys have talked me back from the ledge a little bit. It's just the "I'm a part of you now" line is such a weird fucking thing to have him say there unless it had that subtext.

Anyway, solid episode, great spectacle. I'm thrilled that Dany and Co. are finally going to be heading to the mainland.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 20, 2016, 10:25:38 PM
Before I rewatch the episode tonight, a couple more comments...

Did people notice that the Vale's war horn was sounded like 2 or 3 times before it was loud and clearly audible? That was such a fascinating choice. As if the first couple times might have been in the viewer's imagination.

...

Quick flashback to Arya's story. Heard something over the weekend that has basically ironed out the Arya weirdness for me. First of all, the actress saying that she patched up Arya was completely bogus. She might have stopped the bleeding, but just barely. At that point, Arya was still in mortal danger, and probably a day or two away from sepsis and death. Even if she did survive, she'd probably be significantly handicapped and would never have normal digestion ever again...

She flees from the Waif and instantly starts bleeding. All it takes is a tumble, and things get much worse. She's in severe mortal danger from her gut wound when she goes zen and finally defeats the Waif. The only reason she survives is that she makes it back to the House of Black and White and drinks from the pool (which previously cured her blindness). I did notice her bloody footsteps leading there, but for some reason the significance didn't register. This is the first time any actual healing takes place. Had she stayed with the actress, she certainly would have died.

As for Arya behaving stupidly, the best explanation is that she just behaved stupidly. Maybe she was trying to draw the Waif out (already had the trap set up) and got too cocky about it. Or had a momentary lapse in judgement. But she certainly learned from that, didn't she? It could be seen as her final lesson.

In fact, Arya is not necessarily known for her caution. She has an impulsive streak. And I guess you can't blame her — Arya starts out as 11 years old in the show. She was 9 years old in the books.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 20, 2016, 10:29:39 PM
All right, you guys have talked me back from the ledge a little bit. It's just the "I'm a part of you now" line is such a weird fucking thing to have him say there unless it had that subtext.

I think he meant that the harm that he did to her will always be there, just like JB already pointed out, in the same way Theon will always carry the remains of Ramsey's physical and psychological torture, although Theon suffered him way longer and literally lost parts of himself.


I assume Jon and Bran have to converge at some point in their battle against the white walkers. With Sam hopefully not far behind.

Yes, that's the most logical move, an all Stark reunion of Uncle, The Prince that was Promised and Heir.

This story has so much potential of interesting pairings, let's consider that Thoros, Beric and presumably the Hound are heading north. If Melisandre makes it she will meet again Thoros and share stories of bringing people back to life.

Now that Sansa has LF on her side, it's only logical that the Vale will lend part of its army to fight that war, I mean Jon via Sansa should ask for men since they are outnumbered by a large margin.

Then there's Sam as you said he has to eventually meet them again and hopefully share some good knowledge.

In the end Bran is the one that will have the key to defeat the WW, that theory of him warging a Dragon as awesome as that sounds right now seems improbable, let alone that Dany is at the other side of Westeros, she will probably first arrive at the Iron Islands, then King's Landing, settle and then...that's a lot of time and winter is coming.


This is perhaps the Sansa quote of the episode, after Jon promises to protect her: "No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone."

There's a theory that this is a clever allusion to Arya ("no one") and foreshadowing that Arya might in fact come home and protect the Starks in this tumultuous time.

I like that, although I've been so wrong guessing Arya's story, at some point I had this prediction, GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet, so I thought that when Dany was finally at the Iron Throne the faceless man will give Arya Dany's name and...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 01:32:18 AM
Fair warning, I'll have another post tomorrow, but for now:

GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet

Bittersweet could be perfect. Let's say Daenerys does reunify the seven kingdoms, and the Starks rule the North. That’s accomplished by virtue of Jon and Dany’s inevitable white walker-fighting alliance (via Sam and Jorah meeting at the citadel, or Varys and whomever*). Jon and Dany’s relation being revealed will make it all the easier. I also imagine Dany would be impressed by Sansa. (Picture it now: Sansa’s like, “Yes, please destroy them all. And let me watch.” Tyrion’s like, “Okay wait a sec.” Dany smirks.) This Targaryen/Stark ending is all I want.

* Imagine Varys (with Dany) and Littlefinger (with the Starks) being forced to work together again. (Cyclical.)

Bittersweet probably means there aren’t many other happy endings. The damage from the white walkers and from the warfare itself will be significant. Half of the main cast might be dead. And that’s just fine. That’s what we’ve signed up for. Jaime’s end will be maximally tragic, Brienne will die heroically, etc. We might even see Jon become a white walker.

I feel more confident now that Westeros could end up with a total matriarchy. Daenerys, Sansa, and Yara. Maybe that’s what “breaking the wheel” means.

The only flaw is, what if Sansa is not as strong in the books? Maybe she does get there, but some other way, and it simply takes longer. Either way, they must be just barreling through the Winds of Winter plot points right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 03:04:28 AM
My fingers are crossed for a 'Daenerys doesn't learn from the mistakes of predecessors' ending where her advisors can't stop her from enforcing her brutal tactics so we have up with a conflict with the two 'forces of good' in the show- her and the Starks. I know she just stopped the Ironborn leaders to stop reaving and stuff but I struggle with her keeping the Dothraki horde in check (dragons or not). She doesn't need to go wildfire crazy but that would be a nice touch.
I'm surprised she's so normal considering she's literally the most inbred person on the planet. They do need her dragons to kill the evil snowmen though.

I feel like that matriarchal ending seems a bit to neat and sweet to happen- something closer to it might happen in the show but I hear the book is a bit more unpredictable. Would it be fair to say that I reckon 2 of 3 women you mentioned will die? Not sure which though.
I never thought 'breaking the wheel' head any gender connotation, I saw it as a very-surface level statement about the ruling classes. Will she try her chain-breaking, master-killing tactics on a greater scale in Westeros- will she succeed? Will she be called out as a hypocrite for being on top of the pyramid, with power absolute? Possibly going hand-in-hand with the brutal Daenerys thing.

I don't know if I want a Jon, King of the World ending either. There's literally nothing he wants more than to be Jon Stark and being Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North/King in the North would be greatest cherry on top ever. That's the 'sweet' I would really appreciate out of the bittersweet. But there's a chance that Bran could come back as the crippled Lord and have one of Jon's or Sansa's kids as an heir.
Jon's one of my faves in the show, he's had a shitty, rough life. Let him live the rest of it out quietly in the North.

If we don't end up with an apocalyptic ending when all the regions are kinda wrecked/independent, it would be cool if we had an unexpected character become ruler. Someone totally untrained and unexpected but finds themselves in the chair because of the rules of primogeniture.

Ideally, I'm hoping for something realistic but kinda hopeful. As in the wheel never truly breaks, the cycle continues forever, people somewhere are going to be oppressed no matter what- but as the cycle continues, we slowly lose our savage ways and find hope. That sorta business. Not too grim. Not too fluffy fairy tale. But fair. But I'll only think that ending is deserved if we (the viewers/readers) suffer a lot before we get to it.

Also, please, please give us Jaimie becoming a good dude. Or doing something good before he dies. Like you said, tragic and all that.
I hear his arc is way better in the book but I find myself rooting for him again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 21, 2016, 09:15:41 AM
evil snowmen

I'm so fucking excited for the remaining episodes we've got left of this show. The more I reflect on BOTB, the more I think my initial reaction might very well be correct, it is the best episode of the show so far. If this is how GOT handles resolutions and trying things together, then I am so on board with the process of concluding ahead. There've been times where my interest in the show has waned or I've become somewhat tired of it, but I'm completely re-energized by it now. Reading everyone's thoughts here is a major contributor to that.

I think that once "peace" has been achieved and the white walkers have defeated, it's only inevitable that Jon will wander off into the sunset to explore the far reaches of the north. I wouldn't be shocked if Bran goes will him.

Cersi remains the character that I'm most interested in. Of course she's going to get her ultimate comeuppance in the end since she's managed to dodge the bullet so many times, but her story seems to keep stalling and stagnate this season. I hope she has at least one more grand moment of obscene power before she is suddenly and totally destroyed for good.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: 03 on June 21, 2016, 09:53:39 AM
has anyone else been watching this season by listening to other peoples loud ass conversations about every episode instead of getting the chance to watch it themselves? i gave up around episode 3 because everyone is constantly talking about it. i know what happens but visually it must be amazing because no one blabbed openly about the prior.
i think social media is a supplement to the death of art.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: jonas on June 21, 2016, 11:38:23 AM
They better start burning those thousands of bodies right outside of Winterfell! White Walkers reaching the wall has to be soon, right?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
Some observations to share after my rewatch…

Sophie Turner has given her best performance to date in this episode. Her power here is almost overwhelming. So much is accomplished wordlessly.

In the war planning meeting, after each dubious plan is made, it cuts to Sansa with this very subtle skeptical look. At the end, it cuts to her and she has this expression that very clearly says “uhh yeah, this is dumb, we’re gonna need the Vale for sure.” (More on Sansa later.)

Did people notice that the Vale's war horn was sounded like 2 or 3 times before it was loud and clearly audible? That was such a fascinating choice. As if the first couple times might have been in the viewer's imagination.

Correction/elaboration:

At dawn, Davos hears a horn blow three times. This is some deep foreshadowing. Later, when they’re encircled and Jon is being trampled, you hear the horn in the sound bed, pulsing and resonating through that whole sequence. It’s amazing. The sound manifests itself as a kind of hopeful premonition in the midst of all the trauma and horror. Because soon after, we hear the Vale’s horn clearly, and the knights ride in.

In this moment, everyone’s expressions are priceless:

- Jon is bewilderment personified.
- Littlefinger is like aww yeah, look at me. Relishing this with every fiber of his being.
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!
- Ramsay: No. Seriously? Just no. This is not fair.

Also, I was surprised to realize that the actual battle occupies only 11 or 12 minutes of the episode:

38:50 – Jon charges forward.
49:46 – The Vale horn is heard.
55:06 – Jon’s final punch.

When Ramsay says “you can’t kill me, I’m part of you now,” Sansa’s reaction is endlessly fascinating. The camera invites you to follow her microexpressions. She does what could be a little gasp of horror, but that immediately reveals itself as disgust, and she is actually just taking a breath to deliver her epic correction, which I’ll quote again: “Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear.” Her face is quietly defiant, confident, and victorious, and she’s clearly struggling not to let that smile come out too early. It’s so perfect. Give Ms. Turner all the awards.

By the way, Daenerys being charmed by Yara was so delightful. And lots of interpersonal progress between Dany and Tyrion, finally. Her leadership squad feels like a cohesive force now. A very interesting team is forming.

If this is how GOT handles resolutions and trying things together, then I am so on board with the process of concluding ahead.

Yep. They'll just have to make sure this director keeps his schedule clear. He (Miguel Sapochnik) is also directing the upcoming finale.

My fingers are crossed for a 'Daenerys doesn't learn from the mistakes of predecessors' ending where her advisors can't stop her from enforcing her brutal tactics so we have up with a conflict with the two 'forces of good' in the show- her and the Starks. I know she just stopped the Ironborn leaders to stop reaving and stuff but I struggle with her keeping the Dothraki horde in check (dragons or not). She doesn't need to go wildfire crazy but that would be a nice touch. I'm surprised she's so normal considering she's literally the most inbred person on the planet. They do need her dragons to kill the evil snowmen though.

In my mind, the only certainty is that Daenerys does break the wheel and return the seven kingdoms to Targaryen rule, but of a new kind. I think it’s possible she’ll become a mad queen, but not in the scope of this narrative. As long as Tyrion can calm her fires, it looks promising — they’ve been carefully dispensing exposition that indicates Daenerys is developing a clear mind about things. She even demanded that the Iron Islands reverse their way of life (as you said).

Here’s my random prediction on the Dothraki. First of all, they worship Daenerys like a god now, so they will most likely do as they’re told. Dany’s whole point with them is, you know what, maybe the Dothraki wouldn’t be just raping and pillaging if they didn’t have leaders with that goal in mind. (As she told them, they were small men with small goals, not fit to lead.) I think if they actually take part in a victory against Westeros elites and frozen demons, they will be more than happy with the incomprehensible levels of glory they've attained with Daenerys, and more than willing to remain faithful.

We know they get restless, so how about this: the Dothraki patrol the seven kingdoms in a circle, led by Daario and the Second Sons (as they were in this episode). Perhaps one of the dragons tags along to keep the soldiers in line and serve as a reminder to all Westerosi that Daenerys rules.

Side note. It would be interesting if some of the key players survived and found themselves exiled to Essos. A continent swap. And maybe someday they will return to challenge Daenerys. I’m wondering which of Daenerys’s forces, if any, she could afford to send back to Essos to ensure the freedom of Mereen etc. (She can't actually rule both continents, right?)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 21, 2016, 11:09:04 PM
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!

I'm still pretty grumpy of her not telling Jonno, especially when Jon asked if she has any advice. Could have saved a lot of soldiers. Kinda her fault as well. Also, she barely cared when Rickon's corpse was being stretchered by. He was just a pawn. Jon was totally messed up by Rickon's death.
I guess we all have our own ways of grieving.
The new ruthless, pragmatic Sansa makes for a good character but there's a strong chance she might become a 'love to hate- grudgingly support' character- hey- just like Littlefinger! She might become closer to Cersei than she knows, a sharp, heartless player of the game (but far more competent).
She'll either fearlessly and savagely defend the Stark family (name) and gain revenge- and/or forsake her prior relationships and sacrifice those who were once important to her to reach her goals. Would be cool.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on June 22, 2016, 03:36:02 AM
Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 22, 2016, 11:11:48 AM
Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

Either Cersei or the white walkers, for sure. Cersei does seem more likely, maybe even next episode, considering all the aggressive foreshadowing. It's certainly better for Daenerys from a PR point of view if the dragons don't have to torch King's Landing.

I really like your prediction. It's funny, I was just thinking this morning — Daenerys is such an unstoppable force, how can they execute this in a way that's unpredictable? Your suggestion is kind of a great solution. Daenerys arrives with everything she has to find a Westeros in absolute turmoil and disarray, practically eating itself alive, with no capacity to resist. Plus, after King's Landing explodes, I think the citizens would welcome her.

My only doubt is that, well, being unpredictable via anticlimax is maybe not the best dramatic storytelling choice. It has to be glorious or amazing in some way, right? If Daenerys doesn't arrive to immediately clash with the white walkers, what is a comparably epic alternative?

Anyway, I'm also wondering about the timing. Before she can leave Mereen, doesn't she need to wait for Euron to arrive? And if he's building a thousand ships, won't that take a while? Even if she had enough ships to leave now, she can't leave Mereen exposed to Euron's navy.

I'm becoming increasingly curious about Jon and Daenerys. Some people are actually predicting they will clash and do battle or something. My response: are you insane? With what remaining forces would Jon attempt to confront her, and does he have any appetite for that whatsoever?

Nah, I think Tyrion will helpfully inform Dany that the Starks are bitter enemies of King's Landing — also that he and Sansa were married, and she's pretty okay. I can actually see a bond forming between Dany and Sansa — consider their similar positions growing up, forced into royal marriages, raped a bunch, breaking free of that through force of will, and learning to become strong players.

Even more convincing for their alliance is that Jon and Dany are both Targaryens. Any number of key persons could discover that — Sam, Bran, or Varys, for example. (In fact, since he's been downloading all of history, Bran probably knows it by now.) There are innumerable ways that Dany and Jon's people could meet up. A lot of them already know each other. Also, House Mormont (Jorah's people) and House Stark are now very close allies. (Fun fact, Jon defeated Ramsay with a Mormont shield.) Jon even has Davos, who has experience attacking King's Landing by sea! (Not to mention, the white walkers have the effect of unifying even the most unexpected forces.) There are just mountains of evidence for an upcoming Stark/Targaryen alliance.

Side note on Littlefinger — I think after getting to know her, he could see Sansa's ascendency from a mile away, and he wanted to be on board. If Sansa unites with Daenerys, Littlefinger is suddenly on top of the world. And if he's smart, his chance of betraying them anytime soon is nil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 22, 2016, 11:19:02 AM
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!

I'm still pretty grumpy of her not telling Jonno, especially when Jon asked if she has any advice. Could have saved a lot of soldiers. Kinda her fault as well. Also, she barely cared when Rickon's corpse was being stretchered by. He was just a pawn. Jon was totally messed up by Rickon's death.
I guess we all have our own ways of grieving.
The new ruthless, pragmatic Sansa makes for a good character but there's a strong chance she might become a 'love to hate- grudgingly support' character- hey- just like Littlefinger! She might become closer to Cersei than she knows, a sharp, heartless player of the game (but far more competent).
She'll either fearlessly and savagely defend the Stark family (name) and gain revenge- and/or forsake her prior relationships and sacrifice those who were once important to her to reach her goals. Would be cool.

As I said she knew Rickon was doomed but she didn't even touched his body, but I guess she only had one thing in mind, watch Ramsey die.

Now that you mentioned ruthless, these days I've been thinking about what is next for Sansa, I don't think she will battle WW, and her enemies at King's Landing are too far away and besides, the last time a Stark wanted to go there for revenge it didn't go well, so my guess now is that what she could do is go to the twins or send the Knights of the Vale to kill Walder Frey, if not that, what else can she do?

Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

That's interesting, but there's no way the taking of King's Landing is done without a huge battle, there will be fire and carnage.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 08:28:35 AM
Edit: Looks like this story is wrong. Speculation based on false information.

http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344850#msg344850


The Brexit Could Be Bad News for ‘Game of Thrones’

The European Union helps fund production of HBO’s epic in Northern Ireland. If the U.K. leaves, that money could too.

Via Foreign Policy (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/21/the-brexit-could-be-bad-news-for-game-of-thrones/?utm_content=buffer4853d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer[/url)

Millions of people are set to tune in Sunday to watch the season six finale of Game of Thrones, HBO’s sprawling fantasy epic about warring kingdoms in the fictional land of Westeros. On Thursday, voters in a real-life kingdom will decide whether to break with the European Union — a move that could spell bad news for the fictional Starks, Lannisters, and Tyrells.

The hit show might seem to have little to do with this week’s referendum on Britain’s potential exit from the EU, which polls show coming down to the wire with the “Remain” and “Leave” camps locked in an increasingly tight race. But if voters cast their ballots in favor of a so-called Brexit, it won’t simply be the economies of Britain and Europe that feel the pinch. Shows like Game of Thrones will also be harder — and costlier — to produce, meaning that the real world and the fantasy one will collide to the possible detriment of both.

That’s because if the U.K. votes to leave the EU, it would take Northern Ireland with it, potentially robbing HBO of one of the show’s primary filming locations. It takes a lot of cash to depict Jon Snow and thousands of Stark loyalists defeating Ramsay Bolton’s forces to take back Winterfell, a scene shot there and aired this past Sunday.

That leaves HBO looking for partners to help pay for the show, and some of that money for it comes from the EU’s European Regional Development Fund, created to spur economic growth across the European Union. If the U.K. leaves, filmmakers might not be eligible to draw from that fund. This means that some of the cash used to bring big-budget productions to Northern Ireland could disappear.

HBO would not comment on the possibility of a Brexit impacting production of the show, which is or has been filmed in Spain, Croatia, and Malta, in addition to Northern Ireland. (It has also shot in Iceland, which is not an EU member state.) Northern Ireland Screen, the national film agency for Northern Ireland, also declined to comment.

But when asked if a Brexit would put financing for shows like Game of Thrones and other productions at risk, Peter Chase, a senior fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States’ Brussels office, said “Absolutely.”

“It might be up in the air for U.S. studios who want to film in the U.K.,” Chase told Foreign Policy. “There are EU programs to help fund all of this. If the U.K. is no longer part of the EU, that has the potential to go away.”

Game of Thrones wouldn’t be the only show potentially threatened. British film and television projects were given $32 million over the last seven years from organizations like Creative Europe, which grants money for media and cultural projects. This includes Oscar-nominated British or British-American films Carol, Brooklyn, and Shaun the Sheep, as well as the documentary about the troubled singer Amy Winehouse, Amy.

Many artists, actors, authors, and other leaders of Britain’s creative industries have made their opposition to the Brexit public. In a letter published last month, author John le Carre, actors Jude Law, Keira Knightley, Benedict Cumberbatch, and 278 other signatories from the British film, music, theater, literature, dance, design, arts, and fashion communities wrote that “Britain is not just stronger in Europe, it is more imaginative and more creative, and our global creative success would be severely weakened by walking away.”

“Leaving Europe would be a leap into the unknown for millions of people across the U.K. who work in the creative industries, and for the millions more at home and abroad who benefit from the growth and vibrancy of Britain’s cultural sector,” they added.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 24, 2016, 12:54:26 PM
Obviously they will have to handle that and eventually I don't think it will hurt them that bad, they are getting huge ratings, they have averaged around 23 million viewers across all platforms, somehow they will have to work it out...


Side note on Littlefinger — I think after getting to know her, he could see Sansa's ascendency from a mile away, and he wanted to be on board. If Sansa unites with Daenerys, Littlefinger is suddenly on top of the world. And if he's smart, his chance of betraying them anytime soon is nil.

That sounds like LF, but, did he really not know about Ramsey? and the thing here is that we only have the show to speculate on this story line since in the book Sansa is entirely in different place, but I agree, he won't betray her now.

Anyway, I'm also wondering about the timing. Before she can leave Mereen, doesn't she need to wait for Euron to arrive? And if he's building a thousand ships, won't that take a while? Even if she had enough ships to leave now, she can't leave Mereen exposed to Euron's navy.

Maybe they will meet at the sea, man that would be an awesome battle and expensive too, I can see that happening at some point in the books but not so sure it can work out ($$$) on the show.

I'm becoming increasingly curious about Jon and Daenerys. Some people are actually predicting they will clash and do battle or something. My response: are you insane? With what remaining forces would Jon attempt to confront her, and does he have any appetite for that whatsoever?

Nah, I think Tyrion will helpfully inform Dany that the Starks are bitter enemies of King's Landing — also that he and Sansa were married, and she's pretty okay. I
can actually see a bond forming between Dany and Sansa — consider their similar positions growing up, forced into royal marriages, raped a bunch, breaking free of that through force of will, and learning to become strong players.

Agree, I don't see Jon and Dany fighting, Tyrion wouldn't allow it and Jon and Sansa do know Tyrion, he was nice with both of them and helped Bran too when he designed the saddle.

What everyone is hoping is for the Dragons to head north and Bran to warg one of them, but for that to happen Dany first needs to conquer Westeros, we're a long way for that to happen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 04:18:18 PM
A couple quick random things from Episode 9 that I should keep out of my next post:

I never thought to look this up before, but Daenerys’s command, “dracarys,” is Valyrian for “dragonfire.”

Apparently Ramsay was using the burning crosses as distance markers as he shot arrows at Rickon. Kind of brilliant on his part. Were Ramsay not obscenely evil, he might have been a good military asset against the white walkers.

Also, foreshadowing (https://www.instagram.com/p/BG7AdhZrVUk/?taken-by=thepixelfactor)?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
Edit: Just posted on the previous page too. :cry:

Re: Fernando. Good call. HBO will fully fund the show one way or another. They can't afford not to.

I think Littlefinger might have actually underestimated Ramsay Bolton's cruelty. He looked sincerely embarrassed and a little ashamed, insofar as he ever experiences those emotions. Seemed to throw him off for a minute. But then (as always) he took advantage of the situation and put himself on the winning side.

His only opportunity for betrayal right now would be to follow through with Cersei's request and assassinate Sansa. There is 0% chance of that happening, for multiple reasons, chiefly that Cersei appears to be significantly less winning than Sansa.

More evidence against a Dany/Jon conflict. Jon has absolutely no interest in conquering Westeros for himself, or even the North — I assume Sansa will rule Winterfell, and Jon will give her as much responsibility as she'll take. Davos pointedly said that Jon is not a king. Even Melisandre no longer believes Jon is necessarily the "prince that was promised."

Ohh... just thought of a new prediction. (Includes a light spoiler from the preview.) We know Davos will confront Melisandre, in front of Jon, about burning Shireen. Things are going to be awkward in Jon's entourage going forward, so doesn't it seem likely that Melisandre will be exiled (perhaps voluntarily)?

Then, maybe she goes on a bit of a wandering quest and learns about Daenerys being her faith's favorite as "the one who was promised." Remember Melisandre (wisely) told Stannis he should drop everything to deal with the white walkers? What if she eventually meets Daenerys and gives her the same advice? Seems like an elegant way to enlighten Dany's camp on this issue, rather than having Varys or Jorah randomly come back with knowledge.

Melisandre could also facilitate the connection between Daenerys and Jon. She surely has to mention what's gone down with him, to demonstrate her bonafides if nothing else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 25, 2016, 11:51:30 AM
Thanks, journalism. The original story basically turns out to be wrong...


HBO Says Brexit Won't Hurt 'Game of Thrones' Production

A cable network always pays its debts.

http://fortune.com/2016/06/24/hbo-says-brexit-wont-hurt-game-of-thrones-production/

“Game of Thrones,” the hit HBO cable TV series that is partly filmed in Northern Ireland, will not suffer due to Britain’s decision to leave the European Union, the cable network said on Friday, aiming to quash speculation that the lavishly produced show would lose EU funding.

Britons voted on Thursday to leave the European Union, a decision that economists and government leaders say clouds growth prospects for the world’s fifth-largest economy and could dim its attraction for investors.

The result could also discourage Hollywood studios and cable networks to film shows and movies in Britain, in part because the country would no longer have access to European subsidies.

The series received support from the EU’s European Regional Development Fund in its early years, HBO confirmed, but the fund has provided no support for the past few seasons.

“We do not anticipate that the result of the EU referendum will have any material effect on HBO producing ‘Game of Thrones,'” the network, a unit of Time Warner, said in a statement.

As results from Britain’s historic referendum came in overnight, speculation spread online that the decision would hurt HBO’s most-watched series, which had as many as 20 million viewers per episode last season.

The show continues to receive funding from the UK, including from Northern Ireland Screen (NIS), which provides government support for local businesses.

NIS issued a statement on Friday saying the organization “does not use monies provided from European-funded programmes.”
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 25, 2016, 10:50:12 PM
(Promise this is my last post of the week.)

I think I might have caught a hint supporting the theory of Tyrion's Targaryen ancestry. Could be a stretch, but it's definitely something:

Tyrion (to Theon): "It was complicated for you, I'm sure, growing up at Winterfell. Never quite knowing who you were. [Switch to pointedly isolated shot of Tyrion, attached below.] But then, we all live complicated lives, don't we..."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 26, 2016, 11:13:22 AM
You're overreaching, Jeremy. Tyrion's life is complicated because he's a dwarf born Lannister (or the orther way around...).

I'm excited for the finale! Last week was great to watch, really. But the finale will offer more, I think. It has been a good season, way better than 5, but it needs a great finale.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 26, 2016, 12:35:47 PM
Hey, I said it was probably a stretch!

Alone it would mean nothing, but there's been a decent amount of potential hinting that Tyrion is half Targaryen, and this could be another one. Let me find my previous post on this...

The way Tywin was so resentful of him seemed to go beyond his appearance or the fact that his mother died in childbirth. That would make a lot more sense if Tywin knew he wasn't the father.

Found some good evidence here:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-likelihood-that-Tyrion-Lannister-is-secretly-a-Targaryen

Example from that link. Tywin says this to Tyrion: "You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

So here, it's obviously not Tyrion saying "I've never fit in, because I know I'm a Targaryen," but it's something.

If nothing else, it could be the writers teasing the fans. It's not one of the most well-known or well-accepted theories, but it's out there.

I agree about this season. I think it's the best one. And Season 5 is surely the weakest.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 26, 2016, 11:45:02 PM
Ugh, what an exquisite episode. I was in love with the pacing. And the music... sweet Jesus that music. Everything was so fully realized and so deliciously dispensed. I just kept saying to myself: "Are you really giving this to me right now? Is this really happening? Thank you!"

This is the best episode pair in the show's history, right? Is there a way to make Miguel Sapochnik direct all of them? Does he have a family?

I'll do more gushing this week, but let's get down to the details. First of all, this episode doubled down on playing with time scales. There will surely be complaints, but I think audiences are smart enough to figure things out. Here's how it goes, chronologically:

1. Jaime and Arya with the Freys
2. Kaboom
3. Olenna learns of the event (not seen)
4. Olenna meets Varys at Dorne
5. Varys returns to Mereen (not seen)
6. Dany sets sail

(Unknown: Winterfell, Bran, Sam.)

The main point being, Dany's departure is significantly later than the other events. Which is good, because the Narrow Sea is... well... narrow, and she'll be there soon. I'll see what the podcasts have to say about this and report back. But it does seem like all the pieces are in place for a swift victory. Not only does she have her unbeatable army, she now has the support of Dorne and presumably the Tyrells. Looks like she'll arrive well before the white walkers, too. My guess: The show is telling us to take her victory for granted, and that there are actually more interesting questions. This is a semi-subversion that very likely solves the dilemma we talked about earlier (that "will she win" can't be the focus). Seems like they're stacking things so dramatically in her favor that we're not meant to have any doubt.

Circling back to my other point... Since Dany's events are last, and Cersei's coup takes place much earlier, I hope we'll get to see enough of Cersei's rule before her world is rocked.

I'm kind of shocked that Littlefinger showed his cards like that. His plan is simply incompatible with everything. What if love does him in? Shouldn't Arya take care of him? Either way, the Starks need to have some serious eyes on that dude.

Isn't it a bit ominous in retrospect that Arya eyed Jaime so aggressively? Or was she only playing the part?

The big question mark: What about Euron Greyjoy? Battle at sea yet to come?

And now to revisit my predictions and talk to myself for a minute. Strange, I couldn't find my wrong predictions, so these will have to do. I'll include some unfulfilled predictions that look more promising now.

We know Davos will confront Melisandre, in front of Jon, about burning Shireen. Things are going to be awkward in Jon's entourage going forward, so doesn't it seem likely that Melisandre will be exiled (perhaps voluntarily)?

Then, maybe she goes on a bit of a wandering quest and learns about Daenerys being her faith's favorite as "the one who was promised." Remember Melisandre (wisely) told Stannis he should drop everything to deal with the white walkers? What if she eventually meets Daenerys and gives her the same advice? Seems like an elegant way to enlighten Dany's camp on this issue, rather than having Varys or Jorah randomly come back with knowledge.

Melisandre is currently riding south, so this seriously might actually happen.

I feel more confident now that Westeros could end up with a total matriarchy. Daenerys, Sansa, and Yara. Maybe that’s what “breaking the wheel” means.

Add Elia Martell and Olenna Tyrell to that list. It's getting long, isn't it? Although Olenna and Sansa might be slightly in the background. I do think it's likely that Jon dies fighting the white walkers, leaving Sansa to rule after all.

Oh and we also got Daenerys saying that women will rule after her. I guess I should have led with that.

I think it's equally plausible that Littlefinger's chain of power plays might be coming to a natural end. Who even trusts him anymore? Not Sansa. Not any other Starks. Not Varys. Not Royce. Not the Lannisters, really. (I recall Cersei, not even the greatest of minds, being very skeptical in their last meeting.) The only person who definitely trusts him is a mentally deficient boy.
I think it's in [Littlefinger's] immediate self-interest to put his betrayal spree on hold and earn the Starks' trust for a minute. Obviously what he did in this ep was the first step in that direction. Of course he will try to cause more chaos... but wouldn't it be fun to see Sansa get one step ahead of him?

I think this is the first time we've seen him feeling exposed and a bit lost, despite his massive victory. Sansa meanwhile has never been more powerful or lucid.

Here's the logic problem for me right now, though. Presumably part of Margaery's plan is conceive a boy with Tommen. And the conventional wisdom is that he'll die by the end of this season. How can she be sure that's happened in that amount of time? Also, how can she possibly execute her plan before Loras is forced to confess? I'm seeing a long-term plan with short-term obstacles... or maybe I'm not seeing it at all.

Turns out she was playing with fire after all.

[King's Landing] As Aegon said in Bran's vision, burn them all. Seriously. Margaery included.

I was talking about dragonfire. Still, seems a bit harsh in retrospect.  :(

[Arya leaving the Faceless Men] Were the series ending right now, sure it would be a pointless detour. But this is definitely setting up something important, maybe crucially important . . .

In terms of what's next: "I am Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home" is a pretty strong indication of her sense of purpose. The question is, will she actually go home to Winterfell and be like "hey guys I'm a super assassin now, who do y'all need offed?" Or will she continue on her rogue's path, sowing death and chaos among the Starks' enemies?

Furthermore, does the magic of putting on a face carry with her? Does she actually have that power going forward? That hasn't been made clear yet — or if it was, I don't recall. (Since Jaqen tells her "a girl is finally no one," I'm leaning towards yes.) If she gets to keep that, she'll be absolutely unstoppable.

As Jon Brion might say, here we go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 27, 2016, 02:01:17 AM
Noice. All thought I wish the last scene wasn't the sailing one. It should have been the Night's King looking all evil or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 27, 2016, 01:25:39 PM
Dany's departure is significantly later than the other events. Which is good, because the Narrow Sea is... well... narrow, and she'll be there soon.

Yes it’s narrow but they are at the southeastern part of the continent, as soon as the episode ended I looked up the map of Westeros and Dorne while is not close is the natural first stop on their way to King’s Landing, so the timeline works for me too.

About the finale…DAMN! The final tally of death characters is the highest ever I think, let’s see:
Walder Frey and two sons (I know the sons were only seen two or three times), Kevan, Lancel and Tommen Lannister, Mace, Loras and Margaery Tyrell, Pycelle and the Sparrow.

Cersei.
Ok I didn’t see that coming, I mean the outcome of the explosion, she practically wiped out House Tyrell leaving only Oleanna, meanwhile Tommen couldn’t take it and jumped to his death, Cersei actually took it a little too calm, reminded me the way Sansa took Rickon’s. It’ll be interesting what is next for her and Jamie.

I loved that Margaery was the only one to see that something was off and the Sparrow's arrogance ended up killing all of them.

The Septa scene was great, Cersei gloating all over her, poor woman The Mountain will have a field day with her, I actually would have liked more if she ended up with Qyburn, he's famous for experimenting with the living.


I'll have more later.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 27, 2016, 01:41:33 PM
Yes it’s narrow but they are at the southeastern part of the continent, as soon as the episode ended I looked up the map of Westeros and Dorne while is not close is the natural first stop on their way to King’s Landing, so the timeline works for me too.

You're totally right. I was misled by a podcast and didn't check. I should look at the maps. So yeah, Mereen is actually waaay far away. (And it looks like they will inevitably cross paths with Euron.) Not only is Dany's departure the last event chronologically, but it's going to be a long journey. Plenty of time for things to transpire in Westeros before she arrives.

meanwhile Tommen couldn’t take it and jumped to his death, Cersei actually took it a little too calm, reminded me the way Sansa took Rickon’s. It’ll be interesting what is next for her and Jamie.

She believed Tommen's death was inevitable. I wonder if at least part of her knew that he would end it himself. She could have immediately rushed to comfort and protect him, but she decidedly did not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on June 28, 2016, 11:22:37 AM
From the opening scene playing with our expectations, then flipping some major changes on us, this was another fantastic episode from start to finish. So Cersei is queen now. She'll have a chance to rule for a while, getting her moment in the spotlight (it feels like it's been ages) before ultimately, inevitably, being destroyed when Dany comes to town. That one scene almost made up for a season of tediousness for Arya. Hand of the Queen. Boats and dragons and Dothraki.

This is the best episode pair in the show's history, right? Is there a way to make Miguel Sapochnik direct all of them? Does he have a family?

Agree with this sentiment, but there's a lot to be said for the writing in these two too. Hopefully they'll aspire to match the high bar set on these two for the remaining 13.

Also, this came to my attention since Sunday:

(http://i.imgur.com/JYhTTM4.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 04:29:44 PM
Good stuff. I'm sure a rewatch of the show would reveal all kinds of foreshadowing.

In other news, people are really starting to jump on my Stark/Targaryen alliance bandwagon. (Yes, it's mine.)

Beyond all the things I've said, there was some potential foreshadowing in the finale. Daenerys and Tyrion will be keeping their eyes peeled for a strategic marriage that could cement a crucial alliance. Well, okay then, seeing as the Tyrells, Martells, and Greyjoys are firm allies (you can see all their ships already sailing with Daenerys), who is even left... but the North?

I'm a little dubious about an actual Jon/Dany marriage, because there might not be an appetite for more incest on the show (although Jon/Sansa shippers would disagree). There are numerous other reasons for them to ally, mainly the big one that I started with — she needs Jon to secure the North, and Jon needs her to defeat the white walkers. As a bonus, Melisandre, Jorah, and Sam are out there right now, ready to serve as potential chess pieces to link the two camps.

Given that very clear path, what could possibly stand in the way of the Stark/Tagaryen alliance? There are a couple hurdles. (But we must have some obstacles for good storytelling, right?)

The Targaryens are fairly disliked in the North. Robert's Rebellion was not even that long ago. There are ways past this, though. Sansa and Jon should be easily convinced. All they need is the most basic of sales pitches — "my father was evil, I'm going to break the wheel," etc. And like I said before, Sansa's reaction will be something like this: "King's Landing? Cersei? Yes, please. Here, take these dogs. Do you need to leave something standing, or can you burn it all to the ground? Wait, bring me too, I need to watch this."

And I still think the Tyrion/Sansa connection could play out in a fascinating way. Tyrion was the only powerful man in a position to exploit her who decisively chose not to. (He even became a bit sweet and protective of Sansa, for example trying to take her away from the Purple Wedding when he saw the performance was upsetting her.) Tyrion has since turned against her enemies (the Lannisters) in the most dramatic ways imaginable. I mean... if I were Sansa, I'd be pretty thrilled about all of this.

The Northerners in general might be harder to convince. But Jon happens to have experience convincing them to accept unconventional allies. An argument that will become suddenly more convincing when the dead arrive. I imagine Jon's true parentage, once Bran tells him, will have to be kept a secret for a while so as not to complicate things politically. Or maybe it could be an asset in his PR campaign — the Starks and Targaryens are already united, in Jon, and you all love Jon, right?

Another likely complication — While Melisandre may convince Dany to join the fight against the white walkers, her presence would surely add some awkwardness and leave a bad taste. But... compromises.

I never considered before this week that Jaime might become yet another enemy of Cersei and King's Landing. But it's actually possible now.

Lots more support in this episode for my "Littlefinger is running out of plays and might actually lose" opinion. Consider the rivalry between him and Varys. Where is Varys right now? On a ship, crossing the narrow sea with the most powerful people in the world. Where is Littlefinger right now? Literally brooding in a corner.

What concerns me is that we will have at least 13 more episodes. Which leaves enough time for things to flip again, however insane and unexpected (and ultimately disappointing) that would be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 05:44:38 PM
The one thing I see to get in the way, even before she takes the throne, between a Stark/Targaryen alliance is that Jon right now is The King of the North, I don't know how Dany would take that, I actually think that title will be a huge pain in the ass but...

It will probably work out because on Dany's camp the Starks have true friends like Tyrion who can vouch for both Sansa and Jon, Varys who dealt with Ned and knows Sansa, and obviously Theon who lived with them a good part of his life and knows the horrors they have lived, even Oleanna can vouch for Sansa too.


I haven't even gush about the death I enjoyed more, Arya killing Walder fucking Frey, that was beautiful and unexpected, I suspected that he would die but not that Arya would kill him in such a great sick way, letting him know he just ate his sons, haha.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
Ah, good call, I didn't realize that Dany has four people who can vouch for Sansa. Theon might actually be the most vocal, considering their very recent experiences together.

I wonder what Theon would say about Jon; I don't remember their interactions. Nor do I remember Tyrion and Jon. If Bran is in the mix by then, he'll be like "oh hey, it's Tyrion, the nice dwarf who made me a saddle!"

Anyway, yeah, this goes way beyond the two houses having common enemies. They're already linked by virtue of the wideness of Dany's coalition.

"King in the North" is, I think, a title that has a very specific political/military meaning in this moment. Once Daenerys arrives, that context is sort of wiped clean.

Daenerys would be a fool not to take advantage of the incredible loyalty the Starks have in the North. (She can't be interested in scorching a bunch of northerners while trying to win hearts and minds.) Considering she's okay with leaving the Iron Islands semi-independent, the North by comparison is a dream scenario for her. You're dealing with this super honorable house with two leaders who are decidedly not power-hungry, who are not raping or pillaging anyone, who yearn for an end to the chaos of Westeros even more than Daenerys does.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 08:34:44 PM
I wonder what Theon would say about Jon; I don't remember their interactions. Nor do I remember Tyrion and Jon. If Bran is in the mix by then, he'll be like "oh hey, it's Tyrion, the nice dwarf who made me a saddle!"

Theon didn't interact much in the show with Jon but he lived with him years so we have to assume, as for Tyrion, remember they go together to Castle Black, Tyrion says his great phrase "All dwarfs are bastards at their fathers eye" first time they meet and on their trip they bond, even at Castle Black he defends Jon from his brothers when he beat them while training.

Daenerys would be a fool not to take advantage of the incredible loyalty the Starks have in the North. (She can't be interested in scorching a bunch of northerners while trying to win hearts and minds.) Considering she's okay with leaving the Iron Islands semi-independent, the North by comparison is a dream scenario for her. You're dealing with this super honorable house with two leaders who are decidedly not power-hungry who are not raping or pillaging anyone, who yearn for an end to the chaos of Westeros even more than Daenerys does..

Agree, that sounds like the logical move to make, I just wonder how they will get to that point, because by that time she has to be Queen, and while Dany does that, what will be happening at Winterfell?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on June 28, 2016, 10:39:20 PM
2 seasons left. I think that the joined forces of Daenerys and Jon is likely if a bit predictable. I'm wondering if they're gonna be at odds until some significant moment where the WWs appear and mess things up real bad and take a couple of important characters with them.
I think there needs to be another significant force of evil- Cersei doesn't count because it seems that Daenerys will be able to wipe her out with ease, also literally no one likes Cersei anymore except Qyburn and Zombie Clegane. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense for her to survive very long, she only has enemies now. Jamie is the biggest threat because he's the closest to her and was having 'Nam flashbacks to the Mad King in their last scene.

Euron maybe as the next big threat? He's been a bit of a joke so far but apparently in the books, he's shaping up to be a horrifically evil and powerful character. This season was a housekeeping season for the most part and they've tied up a lot of loose ends.

It would be pretty crazy if the WWs weren't the final bad guys and Euron or Mad Queen Daenerys end up as the final villains (kind of Breaking Badish that way).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 11:24:45 PM
Like you guys I think Cersei is done, it's just a matter of when that will happen, but, wouldn't be great if she somehow escaped and hide somewhere else? or even if she loses and dies she somehow takes a big chunk of Dany's army? I know the former it's not likely to happen but as a twist maybe it could work, it's a big maybe.

I don't think the Cersei vs Jaime will happen, not so long ago Jaime told Brienne how much he loved Cersei and she just confessed to the Septa the same thing, they may have a fight or two but I don't think Jaime will abandon her or turn against her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 28, 2016, 11:43:21 PM
As for Tyrion, remember they go together to Castle Black, Tyrion says his great phrase "All dwarfs are bastards at their fathers eye" first time they meet and on their trip they bond, even at Castle Black he defends Jon from his brothers when he beat them while training.

Wow, I completely forgot about that. I guess it's been a while. Looks like Tyrion being a decent guy is going to pay off in the end.

Like you guys I think Cersei is done, it's just a matter of when that will happen, but, wouldn't be great if she somehow escaped and hide somewhere else? or even if she loses and dies she somehow takes a big chunk of Dany's army? I know the former it's not likely to happen but as a twist maybe it could work, it's a big maybe.

I don't think the Cersei vs Jaime will happen, not so long ago Jaime told Brienne how much he loved Cersei and she just confessed to the Septa the same thing, they may have a fight or two but I don't think Jaime will abandon her or turn against her.

It would be a fun twist if Cersei escapes. But I think at this point, she is one to make a last stand, even if she takes the entire Lannister army with her. On the other hand, the show will be very reluctant to kill anyone from the principal cast (Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, Cersei) too soon.

I have no idea what Jaime will do about Cersei right now. In a way, he kind of missed his chance to stop her, because the damage has already been done. That was a super disillusioned look he gave her, though. He's not on board.

2 seasons left. I think that the joined forces of Daenerys and Jon is likely if a bit predictable. I'm wondering if they're gonna be at odds until some significant moment where the WWs appear and mess things up real bad and take a couple of important characters with them.
I think there needs to be another significant force of evil- Cersei doesn't count because it seems that Daenerys will be able to wipe her out with ease, also literally no one likes Cersei anymore except Qyburn and Zombie Clegane. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense for her to survive very long, she only has enemies now. Jamie is the biggest threat because he's the closest to her and was having 'Nam flashbacks to the Mad King in their last scene.

Euron maybe as the next big threat? He's been a bit of a joke so far but apparently in the books, he's shaping up to be a horrifically evil and powerful character. This season was a housekeeping season for the most part and they've tied up a lot of loose ends.

It would be pretty crazy if the WWs weren't the final bad guys and Euron or Mad Queen Daenerys end up as the final villains (kind of Breaking Badish that way).

This is also my conundrum. On the surface, I don't see how there is enough plot left for 13+ episodes. But as you say, we do have some potentially major human villains. I think we'll get at least 2-3 more episodes out of Cersei. In terms of other villains, I would absolutely rule out Daenerys, and add Littlefinger. If he's not getting what he wants, he'll go into chaos mode again, which is the only way to change the game. So Cersei, Euron, and Littlefinger.

Maybe Daenerys easily conquers King's Landing, but conquering the whole of Westeros proves more complex. Winning the throne is just the beginning. The previous aspiring rulers like Stannis or Renly had no plans to re-unite the seven kingdoms, as far as I know. Daenerys's plans are a lot more ambitious. Maybe breaking the wheel is a seriously difficult process. Her story has been about slow and hard-won victories, so that probably continues. Some people are guessing that she tries to bring democracy to Westeros. She literally just did that with Mereen as part of her exit plan, and it was barely commented upon.

When she arrives in Westeros, there are no slaves to free, so what is the equivalent leap in progress? How about a parliamentary monarchy of some kind? (This podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/) has been predicting that for a while.)

We might also have enough time to go fully down the rabbit hole with Bran. *crosses fingers*

Side note, won't it be weird when we're not cutting between locations as much because 3/4 of the characters are in the same place?

Agree, that sounds like the logical move to make, I just wonder how they will get to that point, because by that time she has to be Queen, and while Dany does that, what will be happening at Winterfell?

Not sure. Maybe Daenerys would quickly send someone to make contact with Winterfell, or send a raven straight away and summon them.

But yes. The timing of everything is a big open question for me right now.

Okay, this is kind of dumb, but I'm going to do it anyway. We've been wondering about the travel time between Essos and Westeros. So I put a few things together. Let's say the ships are traveling at a constant 17 knots (roughly going by this (https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/2ve7ms/how_fast_do_17th_century_sailing_ships_travel/)). That's 19.56 miles per hour. The distance from the Wall to Dorne is said to be (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/27/faster-than-a-speeding-dragon-how-is-everyone-in-game-of-thrones/) 3,000 miles. Let's inflate that to 3,700 miles for it not being a straight path at sea.

Looking at this map (http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/index.php), I'll guess that Mereen to Dorne is about the same distance — a one-way trip would take less than 8 days. If Daenerys is going straight for the throne, Mereen to King's Landing (5,000 miles at the most?) would take less than 11 days.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 29, 2016, 11:57:52 PM
Sapochnik will not be back for Season 7.  :(

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-7-directors


Also, D&D are once again saying "13 more episodes" is their tentative plan.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/entertainment/game-of-thrones-ending/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 30, 2016, 10:34:13 AM
Aiden Gillen talked about that look exchanged between Littlefinger and Sansa after Jon was declared King of the North. While they apparently kept the meaning ambiguous on set (and probably in the script), these are his thoughts:

There's a certain amount of, "I told you so. Is this what you want? Can you trust him?" And all of that has been said anyway, in the previous scene. But there's also a degree of excitement, because the lords are pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow, and we didn't necessarily know it would go that way. Speaking for Littlefinger, it was one of those moments where you go, "Fuck! Maybe this is a bigger thing than I thought it would be. How are we going to deal with this?" Given that he enjoys chaos and uncertainty and the thrill of all of that, it was a big moment for him.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/06/aidan-gillen-littlefinger-sansa-game-of-thrones.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 03, 2016, 01:26:59 PM
I also can't see right now that they have much story for 13 episodes, mainly for Winterfell.

Let's see what could happen:

Winterfell
A conflict between LF is a given; I used to think Jon would go to Castle Black but now that he is KoN don't know how his brothers would receive them, although, he could get a raven that Bran arrived there so he makes the trip to pick him up and Ghost too while He's at it, still, right now I don't think he has much enemies in the north so that trip should be safe and easy.
Speaking of Bran, since his uncle said he can't cross the wall because He's death, wouldn't the white walkers have the same problem? Or they can because he touched Bran and the spell will be broken? Also, death people have crossed, remember that bold zombie Jon killed in the old Bear's room back in season 1? So we have to assume WW will cross the wall.

Danaerys
A clash at sea with Euron will definitely happen, It's just a matter of the timing, before she lands in Dorne or after she sails, and in that battle someone should fall from Danny's camp, not Tyrion but maybe one of the Greyjoys or one of his dragons???

Melisandre
She would probably meet either Brienne (not good for her) or Thoros and company, but she can't join them on their trip to the north since Jon would hang her, so I hope she joins Danny's camp at some point, I just hope we see more of her, I love that character.


Oh well, I hate the first Throne-less Sunday…
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2016, 04:08:46 PM
Good stuff. I'm on the same page. They need to think of ways to complicate inevitable things. Although (vague future spoilers?), this EW interview with D&D is very insightful:

Quote
“Once she gets on those ships and crosses West, that’s when the clock on the end game starts ticking,” Weiss says. “The question has been: When is she going to get back across the Narrow Sea? When is she going to take back her homeland? It’s been a long time for her, and it’s been something that’s such an imperative for people watching. You know she’s not going to go there for a beach vacation.”

Quips Benioff: “Beach vacations are way better in Essos.”

“She summers in Essos,” concedes Weiss. “But when she gets back to Westeros, it’s on. Her return is the first domino.”

In terms of big open questions, Euron was my first, but this is definitely #2:

I've heard a fair amount of speculation that Bran will bring the wall down by going through it. The wall contains protective magic (like the tree), and Bran is marked, which means his crossing the wall may allow the Night King to get through or even destroy the wall.

I fear that's what's going to happen. Could they pull it off without making us hate Bran for his incompetence?

So when they approached the wall in this episode, and Benjen was all like "go ahead, don't want to make you late, good luck," I got very suspicious. When Benjen says goodbye, he says "I wish you both good fortune" (weirdly emotionless). At this point, the camera lingers on his expression for several seconds — he literally shifts his eyes back and forth a bit, settling on a creepy subtle smirk (cropped screenshot below), as if to say "lol you guys have no idea what hell you're about to unleash."

Is it possible that Benjen is an agent for the white walkers?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on July 05, 2016, 10:22:45 AM
So my brother-in-law and I were consoling each other at 4th July about the first GOT-less Sunday and our mother-in-law overheard us saying something along the lines of a "10 month wait" and immediately got excited that one of her daughters was pregnant. My mother-in-law, ladies and gents.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 05, 2016, 11:12:10 AM
It's going to be rough. I think I might do a rewatch of the whole series. Partially because this podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/) is doing one. I'll probably read the books once the series is over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 05, 2016, 04:39:06 PM
You haven't read the books? I thought you did...anyway, if you read book reviews you'll see as I did that for some A feast for crows is the lesser book of all, without spoiling anything, those guys are wrong, the chapters of Cersei alone are worth the whole book.

ok, just a vague spoiler about the theme of the first chapters of Cersei in AFFC: the aftermath of Tywin's murder is a thing of beauty that didn't make it to the show.


You guys probably have seen the beautiful death posters that Robert M. Ball does for every episode, here's the latest, if you haven't check the link below.

http://beautifuldeath.com/

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/fbv/6_10-art_zps6jrvalsx.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 05, 2016, 07:21:31 PM
Those posters are amazing!

I did read the first few chapters of the first book, but I decided to experience the show first.

In other news, I got my email read on the podcast!

audio clip (http://xixax.com/jb/got-feedback.mp3)

It's based on our conversation here (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344875#msg344875). I'm a little disappointed, though. He cut out a big chunk and jumbled some words. (I guess it was long. And I don't always write in a radio-friendly style.) Their reaction was basically, "hmm yeah that seems right." I was hoping they'd go on a speculative tangent. I should include a clear question next time.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 05, 2016, 09:20:25 PM
The issue with A Feast For Crows is the book as a whole. Because, yes, it contains amazing chapters. I forgot a lot of what happens in Book 4 and 5 and I'll probably read them again this year. It's two different stories, now, the books and the show. I prefer the G.R.R Martin telenovella, but the show had to be the way it is—more focused.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 14, 2016, 04:18:38 PM
Game of Thrones leads the Emmy nominations.

I have no clue how Sophie Turner didn't make the cut, though. She put in a stronger performance than anyone who was actually nominated. With the possible exception of Lena Headey. Alright, Lena Headey was better.

Not sure Dinklage or Emilia need to be getting nominations for this season. Swap in Natalie Dormer, Liam Cunningham, and Ian McShane.


Best Drama
Peter Dinklage (Sup Actor)
Kit Harington (Sup Actor)
Emilia Clarke (Sup Actor)
Lena Headey (Sup Actor)
Maisie Williams (Sup Actor)
Max von Sydow (Guest Actor)
Writing - David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for "Battle of the Bastards"
Directing - Miguel Sapochnik for "Battle of the Bastards"
Directing - Jack Bender for "The Door"
Outstanding Production Design
Outstanding Casting For A Drama Series
Outstanding Cinematography For A Single-Camera Series
Outstanding Costumes For A Period/Fantasy Series, Limited Series Or Movie
Outstanding Single-Camera Picture Editing For A Drama Series
Outstanding Hairstyling
Outstanding Interactive Program (“Game Of Thrones Main Titles 360 Experience”)
Outstanding Makeup
Outstanding Sound Editing
Outstanding Sound Mixing
Outstanding Prosthetic Makeup
Outstanding Special Visual Effects
Outstanding Stunt Coordination

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/la-et-st-emmys-2016-nominees-winners-list-20160714-snap-story.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 18, 2016, 12:04:57 AM
Rewatching Season 1. Saw Episode 2 tonight.

At the time, so much was made of Sansa "lying" when asked to describe the scuffle with Joffrey. What she actually did was refuse to testify. "I don't remember, it all happened so fast" — barely qualifies as a lie because no one believes her, and she knows it. She refuses to corroborate Arya's story, but she also refuses to corroborate Joffrey's story. She actually sort of removes legitimacy from the proceeding, which might have been my move also, to be honest. This is not 100% honorable behavior, but she was put on the spot (recently awakened, even). Intensely confused about where her allegiances actually are, and what she should do next.

This strikes me as a failing of Ned Stark. He taught his sons how to be honorable, but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't think to give his daughters the same level of instruction. Sansa is suddenly in this position of power, but she has clearly not been prepared for it. Furthermore, Ned Stark has put himself and his family in this position where they are forced to make moral compromises. Which in the next scene leads him to slay a dire wolf, the very symbol of his house. Quite on the nose, actually. More than any significant commentary on Sansa, this sequence of events feels strongly symbolic of Ned straying from the North and from his Stark identity.

Anyway... The show is more poetic and more fully engaging in these early episodes than I remember. It's a delight.

Just two complaints, though. Viserys Targaryen is cartoonishly evil, at the same time that Joffrey's evil is unfolding with great subtlety. A bit of a weakness.

Secondly, this problem is actually worse than I remember:

In the books, the consummation of Daenerys's marriage (in her POV chapter) was written as a romantic scene, consensual, and even briefly erotic (and to be clear, erotic for her, since it is literally from her point of view), adorned with flowery language, and set near a peaceful forest stream if I remember correctly. (And I think I do remember, because of how awkward it was to hear the stilted British audiobook narrator say "her wetness.") In the TV show, they decided Daenerys should be raped instead, on a dark wind-swept cliff. They decided that instead of starting the love story before the marriage, they should try to have it after she's raped, when she learns to accept things and transform her sexual servitude into pseudo-consent. (Turn that rape upside-down, girl!) I suppose it was supposed to develop her character, except this departure only had ill effects on the storytelling. It ended up scrambling this character (Daenerys) into a sufferer of stockholm syndrome, a woman who against all odds fell in love with her rapist (a truly inspiring tale for wives in arranged marriages, one could argue). Anytime thereafter when she said "my sun and stars," fondly recalling her true love Khal Drogo, we could only be quietly baffled by the disconnect.

The way it plays out in the show reeks of a male sex fantasy superimposed on this otherwise very carefully-observed narrative. They didn't have a female writer until Season 2, and unfortunately that is very obvious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 20, 2016, 11:10:19 AM
Definitely have to revise my argument about the Daenerys & Khal Drogo romance. I hadn't read far enough to realize that it's equally problematic in the book. GRRM actually tries to have it both ways, and the romantic scene that I quoted turns out to be incongruous. So basically, this is still a major plot problem, but it's not really a show invention.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 20, 2016, 11:38:43 AM
I've only read the first handful of chapters but I assumed the case here was something like she was a scared, young, and overly obedient girl 'dutifully' adapting to a barbaric culture? I mean it's unpleasant but probably makes sense in the context of that world/era/etc.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 20, 2016, 12:26:35 PM
I've only read the first handful of chapters but I assumed the case here was something like she was a scared, young, and overly obedient girl 'dutifully' adapting to a barbaric culture? I mean it's unpleasant but probably makes sense in the context of that world/era/etc.

Right. The only problem is that we're meant to believe she genuinely fell in love with her rapist, to the point that she calls him "my moon and stars" etc. I mean, if that's the story, that's fine, but it changes her character in ways that might not be intended. Even in Season 6, she seems to look back on him fondly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2016, 12:02:05 PM
Re watching Season 1. Saw Episode 2 tonight.

At the time, so much was made of Sansa "lying" when asked to describe the scuffle with Joffrey. What she actually did was refuse to testify. "I don't remember, it all happened so fast" — barely qualifies as a lie because no one believes her, and she knows it. She refuses to corroborate Arya's story, but she also refuses to corroborate Joffrey's story. She actually sort of removes legitimacy from the proceeding, which might have been my move also, to be honest. This is not 100% honorable behavior, but she was put on the spot (recently awakened, even). Intensely confused about where her allegiances actually are, and what she should do next.

well put JB, I actually never was on the hate Sansa bandwagon, and neither understood why she was disliked by so many, she was a 14 yo girl that was put under tremendous pressure from the start, and all things considered she reacted pretty good at every awful thing that happened to her. Right now she finally has the knowledge and power to make/build her future.


Have you re-watched episode 5 yet? (the wolf and the lion)

I did by pure coincidence yesterday and oh boy, a lot of shit happens that I missed the fist time I saw it.

The conversation between Varys and Illyrio Mopatis that Arya overhears reveals so much, then there's the throne room encounter of Varys and Littlefinger, their scenes where always good.

Arya then tries to warn Ned but unfortunately she doesn't have clear what she heard.

There's also Tyrion, the one that everyone fell on love with, saving Lady Stark from the mountain men attack and then meeting Lysa breast feeding a grown kid.

And the great honest talk between Cersei and Robert, which isn't in the books actually, about their marriage, the realm and his love of Lyanna Stark.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 23, 2016, 12:21:23 PM
I'm limiting myself to 1 per week, following with the podcast rewatch. But I'll chime in on those things when I get there.

Sansa is not great at this point in the story. She's super immature, kind of self-centered, and not especially heroic. So I understand the dislike to a degree. But the hatred always baffled me. People loved to compare her to Arya, but I always knew Sansa's character would turn out to be more interesting.

This is the scene that completely won me over. How could it not? That look at 1:50 is legendary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRoVIpczcrY
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 23, 2016, 02:25:16 PM
A lot of people don't understand that for a character to have a satisfying arc over the course of a story, they need to start from a point where they then have somewhere to evolve to. I think it's a byproduct of television historically not really being a long-form storytelling medium. It's a fairly recent development that we have a lot of shows in which an overarching narrative unfolds over the course of several years, and characters change and adapt along with the story. People are used to being introduced to a character in the first episode and having that expectation of knowing what that character will be like for the duration of the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2016, 02:25:39 PM
Currently listening to Hardcore Game of Thrones (http://lp.howl.fm/hgot/). It's nothing short of amazing and makes me want to read all the books right now (but I will wait).

Anyway, some random insights:

Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros with three dragons. Sound familiar? I imagined he had a fleet of them, but nope, just three. With those dragons, he was able to instantly immolate entire battlefields of soldiers, or burn everything inside a castle and essentially melt the stone. Nuclear weapons are an apt comparison. I suspect we haven't seen in the show how powerful Dany's dragons actually are... not even close.

A dragon apparently bonds strongly with one person and won't let anyone else ride it. So the prospect of Tyrion riding a dragon (or Bran warging into one) seems unlikely. But I suppose the rules could be shifting.

Tyrion heritage conspiracy corner! In addition to the evidence I've already brought up ("you're no son of mine" etc.), the timeline is very interesting. Around the time that Aerys Targaryen (the mad king) becomes increasingly interested in Tywin's wife Joanna (in a very creepy and very public way), she gets pregnant with Tyrion. When Tyrion is born, Tywin is devastated, and Aerys is delighted by his suffering.

Aerys later appoints Jaime to the king's guard, which forces him to renounce his title and claims to his family's inheritance. Therefore, Tyrion becomes the new heir to House Lannister. This was done to twist the knife in poor Tywin, but was it also done to essentially corrupt House Lannister with Targaryen blood forever? Seems like a decent possibility.

Not sure this has much practical significance, but it's interesting: Tyrion would actually be the oldest Targaryen. Rhaegar is dead. Tyrion was born before Viserys (who is dead anyway), Daenerys, and Jon (who is Daenerys's nephew).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 18, 2016, 01:23:23 PM
Deadline has an excellent interview with Dan & David:

http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-emmys-interview-1201803698/

A couple semi-spoilery highlights:

"That’s what so much of next season is going to be about; finding out what Cersei’s mindset is, and who is she? . . . Who is she, without her children? The answer is something you’ll find out about next season."

"Cersei will do anything to win . . . A loveless Cersei is a fearsome thing."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 18, 2016, 03:44:19 PM
I don't want Robot Cersei. We'll see. At this point, what Jaime will do is more interesting than Cersei. Her arc is over.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on September 24, 2016, 01:01:57 AM
Well. I just watched this for the first time. All of it. Over the past 3 months and several long work trips where I had 10+ hour flights and I was binge watching an entire season on a flight. I had tried to watch the show once before but didn't get into it, and I knew I had to give it a real chance.

Holy shit.

Watching all of this for the first time in such a short amount of time is mind blowing on so many levels. I've been slowly reading this thread avoiding future spoilers and having practically nobody to talk to after each episode, so the only way was to put on the next one.

I will come back with more to say after I process for a few days. I'm so sad I'm caught up now, both because now I have to wait many months, but also because we are so close to the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 24, 2016, 01:44:05 AM
Wow, I can't imagine watching it that way. There's so much to absorb in a single episode. I can see how that would be overwhelming.

Most of the "future spoilers" are just speculation or obvious stuff. Since you're caught up, there's probably not much to worry about.

Do you agree with us that Season 6 is probably the best? I just rewatched Season 1, and it was a little rough around the edges... a handful of cringey moments that are completely absent from recent episodes. (Mainly the sexposition.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on September 25, 2016, 12:50:58 PM
I haven't been able to decide which season is the best yet. Season 1 is definitely not my favorite as I wasn't that interested or connected to the characters, and Ned Stark dying was obviously a big shocker. It makes you realize that nobody will ever be safe.

Season 6 is when things finally come together. Everything moves slow in general (you really notice when you are binge watching), like when the dragons are born and someone says "it will be many years until they are fully grown" and I knew I would have to wait a long time to see them doing what they are doing now.

The characters finally meeting or reuniting is such a huge part of this show, and for many seasons (Red Wedding being one of the biggest) it feels like it will never happen, so Season 6 definitely starts paying off in different ways. Getting rid of Ramsey, Frey, High Sparrow, etc means a lot of loose ends are being tied up and we are heading full steam into the final chapter.

It's been awesome reading the forums slowly as I went through the episodes, because even though there were a few spot in predictions, the majority of speculation is very far off and I love how this show has been able to continue surprising us even when it feels like we know what will happen. I'm already bummed I can't keep watching.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on January 23, 2017, 01:05:11 PM
I'm not entirely convinced cinema is dead, but if it is dying, this show will deliver the ultimate death punch.

Well. I just watched this for the first time. All of it. Over the past 3 months and several long work trips where I had 10+ hour flights and I was binge watching an entire season on a flight.

Samesies. I've spent the last few months on plane embarrassing myself with involuntary cheers, gasps, and screams as I sipped on cheap airline wine and binged through this bastard. One benefit of binge watching is you get to bypass stupid controversies and over-analyzation from recap culture, which I think is starting to ruin TV. Although, I am excited to watch the final season(s) with the rest of the world and join the conversation.

I haven't been able to decide which season is the best yet.

Season 6! By far the best, although I don't think there has been a bad season. The "Winds of Winter" joins Breaking Bad's "Face Off" and "Half Measures" as my top 3 favorite hours of TV ever. OMG that haunting piano score in the opening sequence before Cersie does you know what! (Sorry I'm still on a high from finishing season 6 last night).

I love love love everything about this show. Now I'm excited to dig through this thread and see what you boys have been arguing about.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 23, 2017, 11:37:42 PM
Yeah, Season 6 for sure. It ended with two transcendently great episodes. They would stand up to any other show on a list of best TV episodes of all time, surely.

I don't think 5 would be anyone's favorite season. It's... problematic... as we discussed here at length. And yet, it ends with 3 of the best GoT episodes ever, including "Hardhome" and "The Dance of Dragons."

I rewatched Season 1 a few months ago. It doesn't necessarily have a lot of replay value, actually. It has lots of character introductions that are not particularly enlightening the second time around. The sexposition can be hilariously over-the-top. And the production value is not quite all there yet.

But honestly... The great thing about GoT is that there aren't really "bad" episodes or seasons. It mostly just all flows together.

Anyway, welcome aboard cbrad!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 09, 2017, 04:11:26 PM
Premiere date: July 16, 2017


HBO Made Us Watch Ice Melt To Find Out The ‘Game Of Thrones’ Season 7 Premiere Date (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-premiere-date_us_58c1909be4b0ed71826ac0fa)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on March 30, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxWfvtnHtS0
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 04, 2017, 05:35:49 PM
Four ‘Game Of Thrones’ Offshoot Series In Works At HBO With George R. R. Martin

http://deadline.com/2017/05/game-of-thrones-universe-series-prequel-sequel-spinoff-hbo-george-r-r-martin-dan-weiss-david-benioff-1202084257/

The network would not specify whether the series would be prequels, sequels, spinoffs or companion series to GoT — or all of the above — only noting that each project would “explore different time periods of George R. R. Martin’s vast and rich universe” in his epic fantasy book series A Song of Ice and Fire.

GoT creators/executive producers Dan Weiss and David Benioff, who are finishing up the upcoming  seventh season and already are in the midst of writing and preparing for the series’ eighth and final season, are attached as executive producers on all projects alongside Martin but will not be involved in the writing. The four potential GoT offshoot series will be written by:

Max Borenstein (Godzilla, Kong: Skull Island)

Jane Goldman (Kick-Ass, Kingsman and X-Men franchises), George R. R. Martin

Brian Helgeland (Mystic River, A Knights Tale)

Carly Wray (HBO’s The Leftovers & Westword, AMC’s Mad Men), George R. R. Martin

HBO stresses that all four projects are in development. There is no set timetable for them, and they will be evaluated when the scripts are completed.

It is logical to assume that the network would like to have a new GoT-themed series launch behind the final season of the blockbuster mothership show.

HBO brass had hinted about trying to expand the popular GoT franchise with additional series, including a possible prequel or spinoff. Martin, who is under an overall deal at HBO, also had been alluding to new projects he has in the works at the network.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on May 24, 2017, 01:22:44 PM
Official trailer. As usual, a little spoilery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giYeaKsXnsI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on May 25, 2017, 04:21:09 PM
Official trailer. As usual, a little spoilery.

You mean the Daenerys scenes right? Other than those there isn't much info, but she is shown at what it appears to be Casterly Rock, which means she landed safely, not that I thought she would be killed in a battle crossing the narrow sea.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2017, 12:03:11 PM
More spoilery than the last trailer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mlhnt0jMlg&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 21, 2017, 12:32:54 PM
GoT season 7

1 : People walk slowly.
2 : People walk faster.
3 : People prepare for battle.
4 : Battle #1
5 : Battle #2
6 : Battle #3
7 : People are worried.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 21, 2017, 11:24:21 PM
I like that Sansa appears to be giving us a new version of Jack's "live together, die alone" speech. My two favorite shows are converging!

Going into Season 7, this has really been on my mind:

Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros with three dragons. Sound familiar? I imagined he had a fleet of them, but nope, just three. With those dragons, he was able to instantly immolate entire battlefields of soldiers, or burn everything inside a castle and essentially melt the stone. Nuclear weapons are an apt comparison. I suspect we haven't seen in the show how powerful Dany's dragons actually are... not even close.

Just to reiterate: Dragons of this size can literally melt castles and burn an entire battlefield. I predict (or hope) that Daenerys will give Westeros a spectacular display of force, and they will respond with a somewhat peaceful surrender. Then the show will reveal the full power of the dragons in their battle against the white walkers.


Definitely Spoilers

So it looks like Euron is attacking King's Landing. I haven't read theories on this, but I'll throw in two scenarios:

– Euron is dumb and attacks King's Landing before Daenerys gets there. Then maybe Daenerys flanks him from behind, destroying both his forces and Cersei's when they're already battling.

– Daenerys actually fought Euron at sea earlier and defeated him. She has commandeered his ships and sends them in as a distraction. Then she attacks King's Landing from a different position.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on June 24, 2017, 01:11:25 PM
Speculation spoilers

Some ideas, after knowing a bit more...

I'm struggling with the idea that Euron can win a battle against Daenerys, but it actually might happen. Perhaps he attacks her at sea (it looks like an ambush at night), weakening her forces, then escapes to join forces with Cersei, promising to defend King's Landing from the sea or some such thing. That would explain why Daenerys appears to be battling Lannister forces on land and probably taking Casterly Rock — she needed to approach King's Landing by land.

I just don't know how Euron can ambush Daenerys and then not get caught and utterly destroyed. Maybe he does, and my theory from the last post is true. There is no way he can suddenly assemble a credible force against Daenerys when she's been assembling forces for years and now has almost everyone with her. Unless Euron is able to summon a kraken.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on June 25, 2017, 08:33:28 AM
SPOILERS

It might be a silly thing to say but: how can you fight Daenerys? She has three dragons. That's why I am worried about this new season. The way is open for Daenerys. Also: it will be the first time, truly, that the show is entirely outside the narrative of the books. Can they make it as thrilling?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 03, 2017, 01:28:26 AM
"Season 7 episodes will be their customary hour-long duration, but the finale of Season 7 clocks in at 82 minutes. In Season 8, the episodes could be in the 80-plus-minute range of a feature film, as series like Sherlock and Black Mirror have done."

http://deadline.com/2017/07/season-8-game-of-thrones-episodes-could-be-feature-length-1202123353/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 16, 2017, 10:30:39 PM
Not the best start to a season but it was good seeing the characters again.

SPOILERS

Glad to see the Freys stamped out.

Happy to see Bran/Meera out of immediate danger. I really want to see more of them- especially in the company of normal people.

Sansa and Jon scenes are great. Not fond of the Mormont, I'll be honest.

Hound/Beric/Thoros is excellent stuff.

Sam's scenes were unconventional and ate up a lot of screentime. Not sure if it was exactly worth it.

How the hell did Euron manage to make an armada that big and powerful? Ridiculous.

Cersei's stuff doesn't really interest me anymore. I hope Jaime goes somewhere more interesting soon.

And finally, Dany made it to the mainland. Has Dragonstone ever looked that good before?

Man, fuck Ed Sheeran.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 16, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
Jeremy Podeswa is not a great director. So I cranked my expectations down a few notches. But what I discovered was pretty interesting. When you have a mediocre director handling an episode, that really exposes everyone else's strengths. And in particular I thought the writing was fantastic. Effortlessly sharp and inspiring. Manipulative in the most enjoyable way. Thank God we have D&D guiding this show. They really know how to deliver on pivotal moments.

The ending was so perfect. Gotta know when to be quiet. I was holding my breath waiting for a stinger at the end, and it was delivered. The cold open was pretty great, too. I like that they could credibly pull a Salud. Rewatching that cold open reveals so many new layers, by the way — a stunning performance there.

Hound & co. was also a showcase of very good acting. That all really worked for me. Would have liked to see a flash or two of what he was seeing in the flames, though, just to know he wasn't pulling their leg (which I suspected at first).

Euron is interesting. And kind of terrifying. He and Cersei are worthy villains for this season.

Calling it now: In the finale, we see Ed Sheeran decapitated in battle.

Jon made the right call in that meeting. I understand Sansa's position, but I think she's wrong. I also suspect she plans to lead Littlefinger on. That may not have been part of it, but we will probably see something soon to that end.

I'm aching for this Stark/Targaryen alliance. (My thoughts on that are here (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344875#msg344875).) I assumed Dany would be seeking out Jon, but it looks like it'll be the other way around. A nice twist. I need to see Sansa vouch for Theon and Tyrion, who were some of her only allies in very dark times. Olenna, for that matter. I doubt Jon will need to be convinced. He's desperate for people, and the Targaryen alliance are obviously the good guys.

There will be resistance from others. Northerners don't like Targaryens. The last war with them was very recent, even. Just need to convince them that Daenerys is a rebranded Targaryen. Only problem is they don't really have access to Dany's propaganda, like her "break the wheel" speech and so forth.

I still think Dany will be easy to convince:

Daenerys would be a fool not to take advantage of the incredible loyalty the Starks have in the North. (She can't be interested in scorching a bunch of northerners while trying to win hearts and minds.) Considering she's okay with leaving the Iron Islands semi-independent, the North by comparison is a dream scenario for her. You're dealing with this super honorable house with two leaders who are decidedly not power-hungry, who are not raping or pillaging anyone, who yearn for an end to the chaos of Westeros even more than Daenerys does.

Anyway...

How the hell did Euron manage to make an armada that big and powerful? Ridiculous.

Yeah... I'm trying to remember exactly what portion of his ships were stolen, but I don't think it was even made very clear at the time. "My best ships" we are told. It's problematic that his story last season ended with him calling for a mass manufacture of ships, because that only confused the issue.

The timeline works, though. Theon and Yara fled the Iron Islands, making some stops along the way, then got to Daenerys. They stayed there for a little while, forming the alliance and perhaps waiting some more time for all the other allies to show up, so they could all depart together. Then they had to make that journey back to Westeros. Was surely weeks, could have been months.

Euron's task was simpler: make a bunch of ships, then sail to King's Landing. If they are really fast shipbuilders, I could buy that. We didn't get any information to tell us how difficult a task that was for them. But I'll give GoT the benefit of the doubt here.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 16, 2017, 11:58:26 PM
The timeline works, though. Theon and Yara fled the Iron Islands, making some stops along the way, then got to Daenerys. They stayed there for a little while, forming the alliance and perhaps waiting some more time for all the other allies to show up, so they could all depart together. Then they had to make that journey back to Westeros. Was surely weeks, could have been months.

Yes, but they can no longer fuck with it much given that everyone is on the same timeline, Arya used to be on her own but she's now in Westeros and the news about the Freys already reached Kingslanding and Jon's too btw.

Jon says that Cersei is a thousand miles away, that doesn't seem that far, the speed of a walking horse is aprox 4 miles per hour, let's say they travel 50 a day, they would reach Winterfell in 20 days...maybe I'm over thinking this, let's hope they handle all stories as effective as S6.

More tomorrow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 17, 2017, 05:29:02 AM
I forget that this thread was titled spoilers.

This season will have to a great balancing act- in terms of character screentime, valuable story content and well as managing events realistically and logically and timelines. Everything is converging so even small inconsistencies will really weaken the plot. I can't make sense of the ships thing (they look way too awesome) and numerous.
I must admit the show has a lost the charm of earlier seasons in a way but everything coming together is really exciting.

I'm having trouble taking Euron entirely seriously, I'm really hoping that come the end of the season he flips a switch and becomes something truly scary.
Cersei is a character who is best when she's surrounded by other people- her reactions and general scheming nature are always great to watch but it's not as interesting when everyone is so far away.

I reckon The North/Hound are the best parts of the show right now. I really enjoy watching Jon and Sansa discussing matters together.

I don't see Dany and gang as the outright good guys (I know what you meant though JB). She has some really special people with her and she has good intentions but I just don't see her that way. Honestly, I reckon Jon in his single-minded focus and avoidance of the Game is the purest and most well meaning character right now (I love him for that and he'll definitely need Sansa and Davos because of that). I think for that reason, Dany will take to him. Tyrion will vouch both ways. I reckon Jon will gave Dany whatever she wants as long as she helps him kill the WW.
I really hope, they'll approach Dany winning folks over to be realistic. I won't like it if she gives a speech and everyone comes to her side. Admittedly, dragons make for a good propaganda prop.

Also, whoever has Bran on their side has an upper hand. The more Bran scenes, the better because he knows so much/everything.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on July 17, 2017, 11:07:16 AM
Also, whoever has Bran on their side has an upper hand. The more Bran scenes, the better because he knows so much/everything.

it will be interesting too see if bran is the reason for more stuff in the past. my favorite theory is that he made the mad king mad.

bran saw the vision, wildfire, the mad king and the white walkers and told him to "burn them all", meaning the white walkers. remember that in the end the mad king was just repeating that sentence just as hodor kept repeating hodor ("hold the door").

i don't know if it makes sense but it's a fun theory nevertheless.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: diggler on July 18, 2017, 12:34:43 PM
Hodor can't be the only instance of Bran influencing the past. I just hope further instances aren't contrived. If you had described Hodor's "Hold The Door" scene in earlier seasons, it would've felt silly to me. The show executed it wonderfully though.

I like that Cersei is the one who sent for Euron, that makes more sense than the other way around. They almost made him likable in that scene. I'm sure we're in for some real darkness as far as his character is concerned. Ramsay is tough to top.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 18, 2017, 03:40:46 PM
I want and expect them to go all the way down the rabbit hole and come out the other side. I've long felt that a major theme of the overarching story is that the events of history are essentially an immovable force, that the players of the game are more swept up in the wave than they actually affect it, despite all their vanities to the contrary. How perfect a culmination of that thesis would it be to discover in the end that the whole of this world's history is a closed causal loop?

Hmmm. I'm alright with the time loop, but only to a point. If Bran ends up being responsible for all that stuff... well I don't know how much of that I could handle.  Why would he go back and "cause" things that already exist in his world?

I think the idea would be that he sets out to alter things or stop certain events from happening, but ultimately, because it's all already happened, everything he does only has the effect of setting into motion the events that will already inevitably take place. It's all about the illusion of free will in a causally deterministic universe.

I still stand by all this. Time is a flat circle and all that. Bran is not altering the past so much as he is unwittingly playing out his role within a fixed timeline.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 20, 2017, 10:32:39 PM
Called it.

can you imagine a giant white walker? he would end all, they'd probably need a catapult full of dragon glass to beat that thing.

and not one, three that we saw...


It just occurred to me that when Bran meets Jon and Sansa and tell them who really Jon is son of, because of the way he is, I think he will step aside and Sansa will take the northern throne since she would be the only Stark that can do so, obviously Bran is out and Arya if she lives wont be interested in that.

OK I'm saying it like it's a given, maybe he doesn't meet both but at least one of them, Jon seems the logical choice if he goes to Castle Black for Ghost, or Bran takes Ghost to Winterfell...

Now if Sansa becomes Queen of the North, who will she choose to marry if it comes to that? Won't be her fucking cousin or LF, that's for sure...  :yabbse-undecided:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 21, 2017, 10:01:06 PM
It happened again! I got a theory of mine read on the most popular (and also best) Game of Thrones podcast (http://baldmove.com/category/game-of-thrones/)! Which actually hit #1 on iTunes earlier this week. So technically I was on the most popular podcast in the world. (?)

The theory itself is slightly bonkers. But it was late Sunday night and I couldn't resist...

CLIP (http://xixax.com/jb/got-feedback2.mp3)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 21, 2017, 10:26:33 PM
Curious idea. Though honestly, anything other than Jaime himself will be disappointing regarding Valonqar.

That or Euron after he wins her over and goes into ultra horrific murder mode (who is Balon's little brother).

Alternatively GRRM sidesteps all this theorising and prophecy-twisting and plays it straight and has Tyrion straight up choke Cersei to death.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 21, 2017, 10:37:07 PM
Cersei already burned much of King's Landing to a crisp, butchering untold numbers of civilians (D&D say "hundreds, probably thousands"), using wildfire in the way Jaime has been trying to prevent his whole life. And Cersei's actions led to the death of their last child. What else could she do to actually enrage Jaime? I'm open to that possibility, and it's the conventional wisdom. Just saying, many of those shoes have already dropped.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 21, 2017, 11:01:07 PM
Honestly, I'm pretty mad that Jaime didn't react more heavily to Cersei's Mad King act. It made no sense to me.
Admittedly, I can't think up many potential scenarios but I'm positive Jaime will drop her before the end of the show. His arc has stagnated a little but I'm hopeful he'll find his dignity again. This is a dude who gave up his legacy and reputation for the greater good. For all the bad Jaime has done, Cersei is truly  beyond the point of no return. Jaime's skeptical of all her in pretty much every respect now. Cersei's story has been one of gradual isolation and I expect it to continue that way.

Cersei's downfall is imminent anyway. Nobles and common folk hate her. She has no funds. Her city is cut-off, unsupported and partially destroyed. Her army might still be in recovery. Everyone is in open rebellion to her, I don't think she has any actual supporters left. Jaime obviously inspires more loyalty in the military than her. After all that's happened, her mind is probably gone. I just hope she gets offed in a personal way.

EDIT:
Euron is the wildcard of course. He'll shake things up in a meaningful way otherwise he's a pointless character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 22, 2017, 10:35:54 AM
Give Jaime time. There are six episodes left.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 10:49:20 AM
I'm open to it. Just seems there was not enough emotional setup for that in the premiere. Is Jaime really that cold and calculating? He seemed depressed more than angry. No signs whatsoever that he is furious about what she's done. But that could be attributed to bad directing.

We got a whole scene late last season with Jaime reaffirming his undying loyalty to Cersei. And Jaime has a somewhat separate responsibility to the Lannister armed forces. So what will Cersei have to do? Probably more mad king stuff? Torturing people in public, etc. I can see that.

The next 2 episodes, by the way, are directed by Mark Mylod, the worst Game of Thrones director. So buckle up. Then Jeremy Podeswa comes back to end the season. Strange choices.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 22, 2017, 10:54:00 AM
I think he can't react immediately to what Cersei did. But he'll do something once the shock is gone. The same it takes time for Trump to be impeached despite all the obvious insanity in front of our eyes.

Of course, I'm not 100% sure about that. Maybe his love won't let him kill her. But I think he'll try.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 02:23:10 PM
WTF, I just saw my theory being presented to GoT cast members on Twitter's Comic-Con feed! Jacob Anderson (Grey Worm) said "mind blown" and did the explody gesture with his hands. Sophie Turner said it was 10/10 certain. Surreal...

Obviously it's no so out-there that people can't be coming up with this possibility independently. And I found an instance of this theory (though not in the same form) as early as last month. So it could be a coincidence. But the wording of the question was strikingly similar to mine, and that podcast ep aired yesterday. I giggled with glee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 22, 2017, 02:51:58 PM
Can you summarize your theory here (for posterity and because I don't want to have to listen to the podcast)?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 03:04:53 PM
Oh my gosh, it's all in the first 40 seconds of the clip I posted.

But I'll post what I emailed them, with 2 things added:


What if Arya assassinates Jaime, acquires his face, then kills Cersei?

This seems like a convenient way for Arya to get close to Cersei. It also allows Jaime to be the Valonqar, in a way. And it means Jaime and Cersei die around the same time. [that's also part of the lore, see this (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/85483-jaime-and-cersei-will-they-really-die-together/)]

I imagine this would happen in the season finale during some sort of chaos. [they didn't read this paragraph and it wouldn't need to happen that way, but it would be a big way to end this season]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 22, 2017, 03:27:52 PM
What am I, made of 40 seconds?

I actually didn't catch on that the link you posted was just the relevant clip, not the whole podcast. My bad.

Also, I like your theory.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 22, 2017, 03:35:20 PM
Thanks. Still not sure I'd bet on it happening. For fans, I think it would be disappointing in some ways — less emotional catharsis and redemption for Jaime — but it would undercut expectations while still being true to the foreshadowing. And it would give Arya a mindblowing victory.

So I don't know, what would be more satisfying, that moment for Arya, or more redemption for Jaime? I'm not sure I can get all that excited about Jaime anymore, unless he starts showing some serious torment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 22, 2017, 04:53:55 PM
I don't like what Arya became in the books (before Martin doesn't seem to know what he is doing with her) and in the show. She's a list. With her powers, yes, she can just kill who she wants to kill. But there's no catharsis for me...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2017, 03:54:39 PM
What if Arya assassinates Jaime, acquires his face, then kills Cersei?

This seems like a convenient way for Arya to get close to Cersei. It also allows Jaime to be the Valonqar, in a way. And it means Jaime and Cersei die around the same time. [that's also part of the lore, see this (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/85483-jaime-and-cersei-will-they-really-die-together/)]

I imagine this would happen in the season finale during some sort of chaos. [they didn't read this paragraph and it wouldn't need to happen that way, but it would be a big way to end this season]

That's a good theory but can the show afford to get rid of them both this season? Which villains would be left off? WW and Euron, LF too perhaps, doesn't seem enough for next season.

Regardless of what happens, I think Cersei must have at least one more victory, probably against Dorne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 23, 2017, 04:26:37 PM
The consensus seems to be that Cersei will die this season. But I guess I agree with you. That seems less certain now that Euron might be a legitimate adversary for Daenerys at sea.

Also, rewatching the episode, and getting a good look at Euron's fleet, I think I should retract my opinion that he had enough time to build them. Looks like it would take a month to build one of those things. Unless they're prefab.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 23, 2017, 04:37:44 PM
To: which villains would be left off?

The White Walkers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on July 23, 2017, 05:28:19 PM
What's the probability the Waif is wearing Arya's face?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2017, 05:33:18 PM
To: which villains would be left off?

The White Walkers.

I know, I mentioned them but more than villains they are a threat (the biggest), but we don't see them making plans against their enemies (the living), they only go forward. I'm not sure the show can have only that, and the rest just figuring out how to beat them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 23, 2017, 11:18:03 PM
SPOILS S07E02


Damn, the story is moving fast.

So much for theorizing, Elaria and the sand snakes are done and so is Yara, or so it looked like she was hanged and WTF Theon, he's useless, what the hell can he do now? what is he good for?

Aside from that looks like Jon will meet Daenerys sooner rather than later, that should be interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 23, 2017, 11:26:43 PM
Thoroughly enjoyable episode. Considerably better than the last one.

Things are moving fast and things are intersecting. So good.

I was worried Tyrion would be useless like in the last season so his presence in this episode was most welcome.

I think Theon is almost too broken to fix. He couldn't win that situation in any way. Feel sorry for Yara though. She and Ellaria are Cersei's gift it seems.

Euron's laugh at the end of the sequence was magnificent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:32:16 AM
Agreed, the end of that scene is a standout moment. Incredible acting. And I think Mylod really stepped up in general.

So much is happening now. I'm overwhelmed. We actually got to see Olenna counseling Daenerys! And could she have given better advice?

The plan to capture King's Landing without Daenerys's forces was an okay political idea, but it was immediately obvious that was not going to work. I would guess their best shot is to take Casterly Rock and attack King's Landing by land. I would rather have those dragons scorching battlefields than contending with Euron (who, by the way, is far more terrifying than Cersei). The ballistas are... something... but any dragon worth its weight is going to dodge those, right? The scene with Qyburn actually revealed Cersei's weakness — that she doesn't have something innovative to deal with the dragons.

Varys knocked it out of the park in his big scene — both the actor and the character. It's great to get all of that out there. And I think I believe him. Love that it ended with a mutual understanding. Dany respects his straightforwardness.

So many random character things made me happy. Tyrion vouching for Jon. Sansa vouching for Tyrion! It's playing out exactly how I hoped. The only thing missing: Daenerys and Jon need to understand each other. This goes beyond their immediate practical needs — they need to understand what their camps have in common ideologically. Can they sit down and have a heart-to-heart?

When Jon left Winterfell, his little conflict with Sansa actually played out to both his and her advantage. Sansa showed that she has strong feelings about the North and loyalty, surely stirring the emotions of all the Stark-lovers in the room. You could really see Ned in Sansa's principled defiance. So everyone the Starks need to keep loyal are totally on board with Sansa. She proved herself right before she took power. Which was given to her, not sought, bestowing even more honor. I feel like this is explicitly setting the stage for Sansa eventually ruling the North on her own.

Arya is definitely dispatching Littlefinger when she gets back home, right? It would be funny if she uses a face that's already in her portfolio and frames the murder on a dead person.

Littlefinger, by the way, has no clue what he's doing. Just riding the wave of chaos until something clicks. And I really don't think it's going to happen for him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on July 24, 2017, 01:49:22 AM
I pretty much loved everything in this episode.

There has been a lot emotional scenes over the years but these Arya scenes takes the price for me personally. The first one when she heard about Jon and then the second one with Nymeria... I don't know why, maybe because she has been my favorite character since the beginning. The emotional payoffs in these scenes are so good because the first seasons feels so long ago. I'm not sure if i'm ready for Arya meeting Jon tho, haha.

The only thing I kinda disliked was the last scene. It happened so abruptly and felt so rushed but I guess that was the point too, so whatever... enjoyed everything else quite a bit!

Oh, and Sam. You are the best.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 24, 2017, 08:16:46 AM
They've been trying to get rid off everything about Dorne since a long time, so, yes, I didn't really enjoy the ending, it feels like forwarding the easiest chess match possible. But the rest of the episode was solid. My favorite episode since a long time. Great characters moments. Even for Arya!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on July 24, 2017, 10:56:08 AM
Echoing what's been said. Loved everything about the episode and it's thrilling to see everyone coming together. When I watched all of GoT last year in 3 months, it was blowing my mind how long it was taking for characters like Jon and Dany to even cross paths or know of each others existence, but the more you watch the more you understand how it's all carefully planned. The fact that this is happening now it's incredible.

The Dorne sisters had to go unfortunately. They weren't my favorite characters because they were always talking too much and doing too little. I mean you expect to take Euron down with a whip? That scene was driving me crazy because I kept feeling (hoping) that Euron was getting stabbed but he wasn't really.

The Jorah scene, my god that was painful. I could feel it in my own skin. Arya finding our her siblings are still alive was so great. And the fact that everyone stood up for Tyrion was awesome. I honestly wish I had waited two more years and just watched the whole thing at once because the waiting for each episode after binging on 6 seasons all at once is too much!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on July 24, 2017, 11:01:20 AM
I'll be the outlier here and say I didn't love this episode. Everything felt rushed and that battle was so poorly shot. It was a geographical mess and there was no sense of where they came from, how they were able to sneak up, or how many people were involved.

Sam and Arya are saving the season so far. Gonna be sad when Arya misses Jon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 24, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
Arya missing Jon is a running gag at this point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:44:12 PM
We got a whole scene late last season with Jaime reaffirming his undying loyalty to Cersei. And Jaime has a somewhat separate responsibility to the Lannister armed forces. So what will Cersei have to do? Probably more mad king stuff? Torturing people in public, etc. I can see that.

How about this: Cersei tortures Ellaria (and/or her daughter) in public for killing Myrcella. (Minor Spoiler!) Actually, next week's episode is called The Queen's Justice, so something like that seems all but certain.

I can see that turning Jaime. Then we see him reluctantly/angrily leading the Lannister forces. He'll deserve that torment, too.


[...] That battle was so poorly shot. It was a geographical mess and there was no sense of where they came from, how they were able to sneak up, or how many people were involved.

I agree on the surface. Mark Mylod is not a great action director. (We got so spoiled last season.) But I think it works for the scene. We take the POV of those who are ambushed, so it shouldn't be clear where they came from. The ensuing fight does have some problems (I thought Euron was getting stabbed, but apparently not), but I did properly feel the chaos and terror of that situation.

As for things feeling rushed, I have absolutely no problem with that. We are now in the era of payoffs. That's going to keep happening.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 12:54:09 PM
Are we sure Arya's actually going through with heading back to Winterfell? I interpreted her interaction with Nymeria as a realization that she's changed too much to go back to the way things were. "That's not you" means both that Nymeria has become a wild animal that needs to roam free, and that Arya is now a magical murder ninja whose sole purpose is bloody justice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 12:59:37 PM
I think it's just the former, not the latter. Realizing that Nymeria is wild makes sense. But I don't think that encounter was enough to make her change course again. It would be weird from a storytelling perspective to have her switch directions and head to Winterfell, then switch directions back and resume where she was going, all in one episode. Her face didn't say "I'm going the wrong way" to me at all. Just coming to peace with Nymeria's autonomy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 02:11:19 PM
I think it's just the former, not the latter. Realizing that Nymeria is wild makes sense. But I don't think that encounter was enough to make her change course again. It would be weird from a storytelling perspective to have her switch directions and head to Winterfell, then switch directions back and resume where she was going, all in one episode. Her face didn't say "I'm going the wrong way" to me at all. Just coming to peace with Nymeria's autonomy.

I'm probably over-reading it. Still, I don't think Arya makes it to Winterfell either way. She will be diverted somehow before she gets there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 02:22:36 PM
How about this: Cersei tortures Ellaria (and/or her daughter) in public for killing Myrcella. (Minor Spoiler!) Actually, next week's episode is called The Queen's Justice, so something like that seems all but certain.

The one thing that wasn't clear enough for me is who died there, because we get a glimpse of someone hanged (Yara right?) and another woman nailed there who I thought was Elaria, but now that you say this I think Elaria and her other girl are alive, now that I remember she pleads to be killed and they say no, but that shot was too dark to see, I blame my confusion to either the director or the editors.

Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.


So many random character things made me happy. Tyrion vouching for Jon. Sansa vouching for Tyrion! It's playing out exactly how I hoped. The only thing missing: Daenerys and Jon need to understand each other. This goes beyond their immediate practical needs — they need to understand what their camps have in common ideologically. Can they sit down and have a heart-to-heart?

Told you! I called that and I'm glad that happened, can't wait to see it.

When Jon left Winterfell, his little conflict with Sansa actually played out to both his and her advantage. Sansa showed that she has strong feelings about the North and loyalty, surely stirring the emotions of all the Stark-lovers in the room. You could really see Ned in Sansa's principled defiance. So everyone the Starks need to keep loyal are totally on board with Sansa. She proved herself right before she took power. Which was given to her, not sought, bestowing even more honor. I feel like this is explicitly setting the stage for Sansa eventually ruling the North on her own.

Arya is definitely dispatching Littlefinger when she gets back home, right? It would be funny if she uses a face that's already in her portfolio and frames the murder on a dead person.

Littlefinger, by the way, has no clue what he's doing. Just riding the wave of chaos until something clicks. And I really don't think it's going to happen for him.

You know, there's one thing that keeps bothering me to no end every time I see LF with any Stark, specially Sansa but this comes since the second season when he meets Cat. In this world words travel fast, it is known (sorry), so how the hell word never traveled that LF put a knife in Ned's neck at the throne room? And even what he said, “I told you not to trust me”, I mean Varys was there, so how come he never mentioned that to Sansa? Only mild warnings that she shouldn't trust him and all that, that meeting with Catelyn at Renly’s camp, we know Renly knew something about it because he didn't stay at King's Landing, not one person told Catelyn how the betrayal worked out when she joined Renly? Seriously.

Right now Sansa should know about it, I can't believe she is clueless but let's just say she doesn't know that, but by now she must have told Jon how LF killed her aunt and how he gave her to Ramsey and all that shit, even if he saved them at the battle, his head should be in a spike, if she came clean now that he killed Aunt Lysa sure enough the Lords of the Vale would understand, and his idiot cousin would want to throw him through the moon door, but there he is alive and trying to poison Jon and Sansa’s relationship.

And…in this episode, what happened between Jon and LF down in the crypts, that was something worth sharing with Sansa BEFORE he leaves, but no, he goes straight to his horse to hit the road.

I'm probably over-reading it. Still, I don't think Arya makes it to Winterfell either way. She will be diverted somehow before she gets there.

She could meet again with the hound and the brotherhood without banners...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 24, 2017, 03:21:39 PM
Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.

Same. Great foreshadowing/mirroring in the previous scene, too. Yara says Theon will be her protector, then Theon "fails to intervene" when Ellaria moves in on her.


Told you! I called that and I'm glad that happened, can't wait to see it.

Yeah, Tyrion vouched for Jon in exactly the way you said he would. Tyrion even used the quote you referenced, I think, in his letter to Jon.


You know, there's one thing that keeps bothering me to no end every time I see LF with any Stark, specially Sansa but this comes since the second season when he meets Cat. In this world words travel fast, it is known (sorry), so how the hell word never traveled that LF put a knife in Ned's neck at the throne room? And even what he said, “I told you not to trust me”, I mean Varys was there, so how come he never mentioned that to Sansa? Only mild warnings that she shouldn't trust him and all that, that meeting with Catelyn at Renly’s camp, we know Renly knew something about it because he didn't stay at King's Landing, not one person told Catelyn how the betrayal worked out when she joined Renly? Seriously.

I hope you're wrong about who knows, because that's a significant plot hole. I wonder if a few people knew but didn't want to risk becoming Littlefinger's enemy.

How about this. When Jon meets with Daenerys's camp, they want to know who's in his camp. He reveals that Littlefinger is there — then Varys gives him a dire warning and reveals Littlefinger's collaboration against Ned. Then perhaps Olenna chimes in too: "Oh yes, he helped me assassinate someone once, wouldn't trust that dude."

There are theories that Arya will kill Littlefinger, take his face, and sow chaos as him. Which is like... chaos upon chaos. Or maybe she'll have specific objectives. She could probably get a meeting with Cersei or Jaime as Littlefinger. If she wants to preserve plausible deniability for her loved ones, maybe she will stop short of Winterfell and catch Littlefinger taking a pee outside or something.


And…in this episode, what happened between Jon and LF down in the crypts, that was something worth sharing with Sansa BEFORE he leaves, but no, he goes straight to his horse to hit the road.

I think we've learned that Jon and Sansa have serious communication issues. Best that he's leaving, because that gets a little frustrating to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 04:09:24 PM
Yara's face of disappointment and defeat when Theon breaks and jumps ship gutted me.

Same. Great foreshadowing/mirroring in the previous scene, too. Yara says Theon will be her protector, then Theon "fails to intervene" when Ellaria moves in on her.

That scene also mirrored Ramsey forcing Theon to watch him rape Sansa. Yara inadvertently triggered the PTSD that then prevented him from attempting to save her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 24, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
The one thing that wasn't clear enough for me is who died there, because we get a glimpse of someone hanged (Yara right?) and another woman nailed there who I thought was Ellaria, but now that you say this I think Ellaria and her other girl are alive, now that I remember she pleads to be killed and they say no, but that shot was too dark to see, I blame my confusion to either the director or the editors.

I saw again the scene and just realized that the one hanged is the Sand Snake with the whip, in fact they used her own whip to hang her, and the other one is the sister that Euron killed first with a sword through her stomach, so...Yara must be alive and locked, I'm telling you they fucked up with that scene, why create confusion? Unless it was clear with everyone else except me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 24, 2017, 05:28:10 PM
It makes sense that Ellaria would be (at least part of) the gift Euron is bringing to Cersei, since Ellaria murdered Cersei's daughter.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 25, 2017, 01:06:05 PM
Are we sure Arya's actually going through with heading back to Winterfell? I interpreted her interaction with Nymeria as a realization that she's changed too much to go back to the way things were. "That's not you" means both that Nymeria has become a wild animal that needs to roam free, and that Arya is now a magical murder ninja whose sole purpose is bloody justice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZB-bxAHv4s
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on July 25, 2017, 05:45:50 PM
I feel like that kinda sorta maybe supports my interpretation, somewhat? I definitely went too far in my initial read of it. Rewatching the scene, I agree that Arya is still sticking to the plan of heading to Winterfell, but I definitely think the encounter with Nymeria planted a seed of doubt in her mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 25, 2017, 05:51:55 PM
"Who am I?" is a question she's maybe asking herself now. Martin is playing with the notion in the books, giving nicknames to many characters instead of their first name...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 26, 2017, 06:31:20 PM
Speculation spoilers

I've heard convincing arguments from two good sources (non-Reddit, not informed by the production leak) that Cersei will survive the season. Tied up in this line of thinking is that Daenerys will actually beat the white walkers first, then finally conquer Westeros next season. Any thoughts?

In previews, we've seen unsullied in Casterly Rock. It seems likely that Daenerys's forces will take it. That presents a practical dilemma, though.

Here's one solution:

- Dany takes Casterly Rock.
- White walkers breach the wall. (Shouldn't be too hard, with their frozen giants and whatnot.)
- Dany decides to just hold Casterly Rock for now. Instead of advancing to King's Landing, she turns north to fight the white walkers.
- Dany leaves someone behind (unsullied and/or Dothraki) to hold Casterly Rock. She fights the white walkers with the rest of her forces and wins.

Cersei refuses to help fight the walkers, so Dany & Jon beat them alone, giving them hero status and the political capital to take King's Landing and rule Westeros, which would happen next season.

I think that makes sense. But maybe it's not surprising enough. Some alternatives would involve Euron flirting with the white walkers, given his history with the occult.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on July 26, 2017, 06:49:23 PM
Speculative Spoilers


It makes a lot of sense. It's not surprising, but they've always cared more about the execution–even if, like for the boat scene, it can seem rushed. The white walkers in the books are an headache for Martin, I think, and that's probably why he is taking so long to write the last books. He's so good at depicting that world like a realistic one, creating a proliferation of stories, backstories and characters that he lost track of the surnatural...The show can deal with the white walkers once and for all with a big climatic fight. But it shouldn't be how it all ends.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on July 26, 2017, 09:02:12 PM
From what I've heard, apparently there are far too many stories to properly tie up over the course of 2 books while coordinating the winter apocalypse.

The thing is that even if the WW are beaten, 'The Game' can never end but I think the WW need to be endgame sort of thing in the story. It all leads up to that point. I'm not sure if GRRM has the time to finish the books and then be able to describe the aftermath/fallout of the events with possible power vacuum' and revolts and so on.

It's hard to picture an actual human fighting for the WW, maybe Euron + Cersei (assuming Euron doesn't betray Cersei) thinking that they can let the WW take out the others so they can take over but then they get totally wrecked by the WW for underestimating them. I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I think the series will end with the world deep in a long winter, many of our favourites dead but the WW defeated- Westeros somewhat returning to the ages of myth. Or is that too trad fantasy and not GRRM enough?

EDIT:

Also, I wonder how they're going to handle the really important prophecies. I'm always a bit iffy about them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 26, 2017, 09:31:06 PM
'The Game' can never end

Do you think Daenerys will succeed in breaking the wheel? Seems likely that if she doesn't "end" the game, she will change it entirely.

I would be comfortable with the WW being defeated enough that they go dormant but remain an eternal threat. You know, periodically testing humanity's ability to come together to fight for their own existence. But from a storytelling perspective, I think the political change needs to be transformational.

It's hard to picture an actual human fighting for the WW, maybe Euron + Cersei thinking that they can let the WW take out the others so they can take over but then they get totally wrecked by the WW for underestimating them.

Apparently in a preview chapter, Euron gets himself a set of Valyrian steel armor. So now there's a theory that he will at least seek out the white walkers (feeling safe in his armor). And there's a thread in the books about Euron seeking knowledge of magic and the occult in his travels, wanting to become a god and conquer the world. He'd certainly have a shot of doing that leading the white walkers, perhaps as one of them. I wouldn't mind seeing Ice-Euron.

I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I actually think the world has been developed so carefully as a grounded reality in order to earn those supernatural payoffs. We've seen this periodically throughout the story. And in every season. Like the end of Season 4, when you suddenly have a child of the forest shooting magic fireballs. It works and is mindblowing because it was earned.

I'll also predict this: GoT goes full supernatural, unapologetically, showing you everything. I think it's pretty likely that GRRM would like to blow things wide open. (Lost did that too, and it was not to everyone's taste. Same thing could happen with ASOIAF/GoT fans.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 30, 2017, 06:55:25 PM
Speculation spoilers

In previews, we've seen unsullied in Casterly Rock. It seems likely that Daenerys's forces will take it. That presents a practical dilemma, though.

Here's one solution:

- Dany takes Casterly Rock.
- White walkers breach the wall. (Shouldn't be too hard, with their frozen giants and whatnot.)
- Dany decides to just hold Casterly Rock for now. Instead of advancing to King's Landing, she turns north to fight the white walkers.
- Dany leaves someone behind (unsullied and/or Dothraki) to hold Casterly Rock. She fights the white walkers with the rest of her forces and wins.

Cersei refuses to help fight the walkers, so Dany & Jon beat them alone, giving them hero status and the political capital to take King's Landing and rule Westeros, which would happen next season.

I like your theory.

As I said before I hope Cersei has a big win before her inevitable defeat and Dorne doesn't count for me anymore, I mean a win made by herself (plan and execution). It looks thou she will have her revenge against Ellaria, oh what horrors await her...in all fairness she deserves it because as awful as Cersei and Tywin were it's not like they forced Oberyn to fight, he offered and lost fair and square and she went crazy and did all the shit we know.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 30, 2017, 08:12:48 PM
It is definitely a more even match now.

I just took a look back at E2 to see exactly what Daenerys has lost. From what I can gather, in addition to Ellaria and Yara, she has lost all of Yara's forces and ships (what used to be Euron's "best ships"). That's not great, but it seems clear that Dany didn't lose more than that in that battle.

Seems doubtful Dorne will rally to Daenerys's aid without Ellaria. But maybe Varys can go there and convince them.

The Unsullied were to take Casterly Rock, so they are still with Daenerys. The Dothraki are a complete mystery; I assume they've stayed with Daenerys to protect her and perhaps to be the final force that she rides in with.

If Daenerys really has lost Randyll Tarly's army, that is a brutal loss. His forces were a significant part of the Tyrell army, and the best of them from what I understand.

I think the ballistas will actually be a significant threat just by virtue of their numbers. If Qyburn is producing enough (and I'm sure he is), they will probably be fired like a hail of arrows. They can't not hit a dragon at some point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 30, 2017, 09:38:38 PM
SPOILS S07E03

As I said before I hope Cersei has a big win before her inevitable defeat and Dorne doesn't count for me anymore, I mean a win made by herself (plan and execution). It looks thou she will have her revenge against Ellaria, oh what horrors await her...

Wishes granted. This is going way faster than I thought it would.

So Cersei got already her revenge against Ellaria and Oleana Tyrell which I completely forgot, btw, she gloated about Joffrey's murder and didn't rat out Little Finger who keeps getting lucky, although to be fair Cersei should know that he is on the Stark's "side", for now.

The Unsullied were to take Casterly Rock, so they are still with Daenerys. The Dothraki are a complete mystery; I assume they've stayed with Daenerys to protect her and perhaps to be the final force that she rides in with.

If Daenerys really has lost Randyll Tarly's army, that is a brutal loss. His forces were a significant part of the Tyrell army, and the best of them from what I understand.

I think the ballistas will actually be a significant threat just by virtue of their numbers. If Qyburn is producing enough (and I'm sure he is), they will probably be fired like a hail of arrows. They can't not hit a dragon at some point.

Dany OTOH...lost a lot, Grey Worm was successful but will have nowhere to go and not enough provisions to hold the rock, and she lost the Tyrell army and their gold.

Right now she either rides her dragons and takes King's Landing or joins Jon to fight the WW.

The first, if she flies to King's Landing I agree that eventually she would lose a dragon or two and it is way too risky to do it by herself, she would need to split the dragons so she attacks by the sea and by land.

If she goes north she loses Dragon Stone but gains the support of the north, now that's an alliance.


WTF Bran, he proves his powers to Sansa by reminding her of her worst day? Couldn't he think of something else?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 12:24:36 AM
Good lord this episode was on point. The writing was razor sharp. Everything worked.

I have never seen the Tyrion/Daenerys relationship rendered with such clarity. Jon & Daenerys, too — they actually had chemistry! Maybe he can sense his Targaryen blood tingling. (Will be surprised to learn she's his aunt, though.) That was so good, all three of them. These characters were fully themselves and their dynamic with each other rang true for every second. What a thing to pull off.

The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

Speculation

So Daenerys is finally the underdog. It seems like she has to try to rescue the Unsullied, right? Would be weird for her to go all this way with them and leave them to die. Funny thing: If both forces headed straight for King's Landing — Daenerys from Dragonstone and the Unsullied from Casterly Rock — they'd arrive around the same time. (Dany might be a little early, but they could work that out.)

Good thing Euron is on the opposite side of the continent, so he can't intercept Dany's landfall. Although... he did make that trip pretty fast all in this episode, so I'm not sure they're going to adhere to the geography this season. Maybe the wizardry he used to build those ships can also fold space-time.

Here's my point, though — given the pieces on the board right now, and which ones are in motion, I don't think Daenerys can delay her attack on King's Landing. And, crucially, Jon needs some time to mine that dragonglass. So we might be back to the conventional order of events — Cersei first, then the white walkers...

But probably playing out more like this:

– Daenerys launches an attack through Westeros toward King's Landing, flanking Jaime's forces with the Dothraki and dragons from the northeast, and Unsullied from the west.

– White walkers break through the wall and crash the party, perhaps saving Daenerys from losing a battle. This would be a good way to end the season.

– In the battle vs. the white walkers, Daenerys will be in a much better position (than the Lannisters) to take them on, thanks to Jon's knowledge (he will probably even insist that her guys keep some of the dragonglass weapons), plus dragonfire. Thus, many more Lannisters will be killed in that battle, leaving the throne that much easier to take. This seems like a fun way to reverse Dany's fortunes when things seem dire.

This would also align with my previous theory, that Daenerys will be largely responsible for defeating the white walkers. She and Jon will be considered the saviors of humanity and welcomed. And she's like okay Jon, I think you earned your title, King in the North it is.

I guess we have to consider the path of the white walkers, though. If they interrupt a Lannister/Daenerys battle like I'm presupposing, does that mean they will have subsumed Winterfell? Or maybe Sansa's foreshadowing means this: White walkers break through the wall, all the Northerners retreat to Winterfell, and Bran protects them all with some kind of spell... so they move south. Bran being at Wintefell does need to pay off, after all.

This also keeps Jon with Daenerys, so they can face the white walkers together. That seems like a crucial thing to achieve. Some foreshadowing this episode setting that up, too. It's really best from a storytelling perspective that Jon stays with Dany. That allows Sansa to continue to prove herself in Winterfell. It allows Littlefinger to remain a threat. And it allows Arya to miss Jon yet again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on July 31, 2017, 05:09:05 PM
The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Maybe I was wine drunk, but this was the one scene that felt off to me. Maybe it's because I'm so starved for family Stark reunions and I wanted Bran to warm up more, but his solemn reaction felt unearned. Also, the first thing he wants to talk about with his sister after not seeing her for years is about the night of her rape? Uhhhh what?

Again. I was buzzed so maybe I misread the scene.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on July 31, 2017, 05:12:46 PM
Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

This is a clear example of what I said about the white walkers not being a real villain, here Cersei depicts the horror that will live Ellaria and there's nothing she can do about it, even if help arrives her girl will be gone, and it's something that the WW or the Night King can't deliver (so far), do they even talk?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on July 31, 2017, 05:42:28 PM
Cersei's dungeon scene was also magnificent. What a horrifying thought. We don't even need to see what happens next, it was described so vividly. A good example of a book-like scene, too... it's Cersei's words that do most of the work.

This is a clear example of what I said about the white walkers not being a real villain, here Cersei depicts the horror that will live Ellaria and there's nothing she can do about it, even if help arrives her girl will be gone, and it's something that the WW or the Night King can't deliver (so far), do they even talk?

That's another thing that's irking me - and this is coming from a newbie who hasn't read the books - the WW aren't that scary (yet). Outside of Jon ranting about them nonstop, I don't fear them as much as a Ramsey, nor are they as interesting or dimensional of villains as Cersei is (and god damn is she turning into a power-drunk monster).




Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on July 31, 2017, 07:08:07 PM
The Sansa/Bran reunion was another highlight for me. So much emotion running through that scene, and then it gets sublimely complicated. We see the weight of his knowledge illustrated perfectly in one brief exchange. One of the best scenes of the season so far.

Maybe I was wine drunk, but this was the one scene that felt off to me. Maybe it's because I'm so starved for family Stark reunions and I wanted Bran to warm up more, but his solemn reaction felt unearned. Also, the first thing he wants to talk about with his sister after not seeing her for years is about the night of her rape? Uhhhh what?

Again. I was buzzed so maybe I misread the scene.

Your reaction is reasonable and is the one I think we're supposed to have. That is where Bran is right now. He is other than human in a very literal sense. On top of that, his mind is scrambled with information, as he describes. No one is going to have any great social interactions with him. I think the scene is marvelous exactly for those effects.

When Arya arrives, that will be another weird reunion, because Arya is also other than human. Sansa will realize she's the most normal Stark left. Oh and I wonder what Bran is going to think of Arya...

That's another thing that's irking me - and this is coming from a newbie who hasn't read the books - the WW aren't that scary (yet). Outside of Jon ranting about them nonstop, I don't fear them as much as a Ramsey, nor are they as interesting or dimensional of villains as Cersei is (and god damn is she turning into a power-drunk monster).

Their nature as a cloudy, vague threat is exactly what makes it credible that most people in Westeros are not concerned. Yet. I guarantee there will be a wake up call. It will be all the more glorious given people's shock.

Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 01, 2017, 05:50:52 PM
Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.

Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

Also a friend posted this on FB:

Stark reunion be like:

Jon: I died and came back alive.

Bran: I am the three eyed Raven.

Arya: I am a face changing serial killer.

Sansa: What the fuck.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 01, 2017, 05:58:18 PM
Were the WWs any different, the climate change metaphor would start crumbling.

Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

I'm not convinced that was GRR Martin's plan when he originally started conceiving the story, but as soon as it became apparent, he leaned into it hard. And in that context, the story HAS to culminate with the fight against the White Walkers, as the entire overarching theme is about confronting the existential threat that everyone's been too distracted by the pettiness of politics to pay attention to.

Also, I'm pretty sure in this metaphor, Jon Snow = Al Gore? Sexy, smoldering Al Gore.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 01, 2017, 05:59:57 PM
I forgot Rickon was dead. I thought everyone had forgotten him. Again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 01, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Damn I never thought about climate change as a metaphor. That's pretty amazing.

Not to brag, but I was on it 4 years ago:

I wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.

Fun fact, that was the first time anyone ever had that theory.

Vox recently had a piece on this that went viral:

Game of Thrones is secretly all about climate change (https://www.vox.com/videos/2017/7/14/15969034/game-of-thrones-theory-climate-change)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 01, 2017, 09:36:43 PM
Favourite GOT thing I've seen this week:

"You're not a wartime consigliere, Tyrion."

I might have fired Tyrion back in Meereen.

Second best thing was someone describing Bran as Doctor Branhatten.

I've watched the Jon/Tyrion/Dany scenes a dozen times by now. So happy to see them.
Almost a bit funny seeing Jon in a place with nice weather.

Harington's come a long way. So has Sophie Turner actually. And I've liked Clarke this season too.

One thing's that annoying to see is people bitching about Dany. I find her annoying every now and then but she's earned the right to speak the way she does, she doesn't have the time or desire to be lovely and accommodating for Jon- though her bend the knee type stuff doesn't appear to be doing much for her breaking the wheel objective.

Weird to see LF and Varys be seemingly useless these days. Spymasters unable to do their job properly. LF's little monologue came off more nonsensical than anything.

I'm enjoying the show generally speaking but it isn't the same anymore. Everything is so fast-paced and streamlined and there are some annoyances and Cersei and Euron are unconvincingly powerful these days- to be a valid threat for plot purposes. The more I think about it, I'm enjoying the show because of the payoffs, approaching endgame and overall spectacle, not necessarily the writing itself. As the episodes go on, I imagine it will feel even more like a checklist, fair enough though, they have a lot of loose ends to tie up. Highgarden and Dorne effectively concluded in 4 episodes. If the books ever get finished, I'll read the rest of them, I'll be interested in seeing how GRRM ties up his plot.
If there are incoming inconsistencies and plot contrivances, I'll probably let them slide- assuming they aren't unforgivably stupid.


I've always seen the WW to be a concept that comes from traditional fantasy and subverts what we expect from GRRM- an unstoppable, ancient, true evil. Apparently they're supposed to have motivations and everything but we haven't gotten much evidence of that.

I actually think the world has been developed so carefully as a grounded reality in order to earn those supernatural payoffs. We've seen this periodically throughout the story. And in every season. Like the end of Season 4, when you suddenly have a child of the forest shooting magic fireballs. It works and is mindblowing because it was earned.

I messed up the quotes but whatever. I suppose what I was getting at with that post is that was less supernatural and more motivation based. We're supposed to get a reason for the WW's actions, there's supposed to be a good reason for them being all spooky and murdery yet we have zero evidence for that. I imagine Bran will figure all that out now. Right now, they are a mindless true evil (like in Trad fantasy). Works for the CC metaphor as climate change is merely a consequence with underlying agenda (no matter what some tinfoil theorists think).

Not to brag, but I was on it 4 years ago:
I wonder if the white walkers are (intentionally or not) a metaphor for global warming. They're this looming force of nature very slowly marching toward civilization. At first, people deny their existence. But as soon as their presence becomes apparent, they obviously threaten everyone, so there's this opportunity for setting aside politics, tribalism, and war to fight a common enemy. But it might simply make things more complicated.
Fun fact, that was the first time anyone ever had that theory.

I gotta be honest, I would be pretty surprised if that was the first time someone's had that theory.
I did a quick search and something like that was vaguely mentioned in a NYT review way back but perhaps that was a more general comment on the Westerosi climate. There was a fairly specific mention on reddit around the same time as you. I bet an insightful/prescient book fan probably had the thought back in the 90s.
Unless you were joking and I got whooshed real bad.

I can be pretty anti-parable/anti-didacticism at times (because the execution is often preachy/bad) but this is the sort of situation where I support this kind of thing.

EDIT:

Here's a really nice one from 2012.
https://lostandinventedecologies.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/guest-blogger-daniel-meyers-song-of-ice.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 02, 2017, 12:17:57 AM
I was definitely trying to be funny there. Hopefully people don't think I'm that big of a jerk that I would begin a self-aggrandizing statement with "fun fact..."

Agree about Dany. Her expectation was that Jon was coming to bend the knee. He did not warn her about any dragonglass request or any desire to keep the North. Daenerys was caught off-guard by him. If he has something of real consequence to offer her in the war, I'm sure she'd be happy to work out a sovereign partnership, as she was with the Iron Islands. Currently, she's simply giving him dragonglass (and labor!) and getting nothing in return. Further in Dany's defense, she was intrigued by the knife-in-the-heart thing, and she really started warming up to him by the end of the episode.

I heard this today and agree with it: Tyrion is great at diplomacy but horrible at war tactics. Maybe Davos (and Jorah?) can offer better advice.

To your complaints... D&D signed on to produce an adaptation, not fan fiction based on a GRRM outline, so all things considered I think it's going quite well. I am so in on the show that nothing has really broken the spell since the beginning of last season.

I have to be careful what I read and listen to right now, because GoT is in the prime nitpicking zone as it begins to wrap up. People will continue to get very upset when each thing is not fully explained. Boatbuilding aside (that really was impossible), I think this is a ridiculous distraction. Can the viewer not use his or her imagination to fill in the blanks? Do fans really want the show to spend its valuable time shoving exposition in their face? The faster the plot unfolds, the more things there are to explain... and I don't think people realize they don't actually want that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 06, 2017, 08:20:49 PM
HOLY SHIT  :bravo:

My blood is pumping. I need to see all of that that again right away...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 06, 2017, 09:34:01 PM
That was intense. :shock:

I loved that Arya scene. In a real fight - it would be over in seconds!

Oh, and that last scene... omg, I had NO IDEA what would happen. All of the unpredictable shit in past episodes make you really sit on the edge of the seat and feel like anything could happen in these kind of scenes. That's what make this show so much more intense than anything else.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 06, 2017, 09:59:48 PM
Yes, what a wonderful episode.


SPOILS S07E04

The Stark Girls reunion was great, I'm glad Arya lowered her faceless guard and embraced Sansa.

Bran keeps his cold demeanor (I feel for poor Meera), it kind of makes sense the way he is now, just one thing again, couldn't he mentioned that LF betrayed his father? Maybe he still has an important part to play in all this, Bran saying to LF chaos is ladder was really something, Baelish has to know now he can't fuck with them, will see.

Then it came Daenerys vs the Lannisters, that was tense I feared for pretty much everyone except Dany, at some point I thought Jaime was done but he has to be alive right? If so, he better be captured because there's no where to go. Looks like Drogon will make it but he took a big hit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 07, 2017, 01:09:55 AM
That was, without a doubt, my favorite "glorious battle scene" that the show has given us so far. How long have I been talking about dragons scorching battlefields? Now I finally got to see it. When Draenerys said "dracarys," I definitely might have screamed "yes!"

GoT managed to turn me into a bloodthirsty monster for a good while. I actually enjoyed seeing all those Lannister men cooked alive. They and Jaime are fighting for Cersei, after all. I genuinely wanted to see Jaime's face blasted off by fire just then. And Bronn... he can die immediately. Always a fun character, but he has no honor. Don't need to root for him. It blows my mind that we actually got to see Bronn face off against a Dothraki, who fought just as dirty as he does.

Then, Tyrion on the hill. Boom. Instant perspective. That hit me like a truck. I felt like the three-eyed raven for a second while all of Tyrion's feelings flashed before my eyes.

I don't think it can be overstated how masterful that whole setpiece was. The editing alone... watching that horizon, waiting for the Dothraki to appear... Jesus. They made the battle very personal, too. Consider all the characters at play: Dany, Tyrion, Jaime, Bronn, and even Dickon.

Rest of the ep was also pretty great. Going to say Winterfell was the highlight. The cascade of payoffs just continues — Brann saying "chaos is a ladder" was so exciting. And Arya's sparring scene — so much is happening within Sansa's reactions there, it's insane.

Jon and Dany had even more chemistry this week! They work well together. And by the way, the part where she demanded yet again that he bend the knee seemed like very clear foreshadowing that she would eventually drop that demand. That happened mere seconds before she was given the bad news about her allies having evaporated. Plus, as I keep saying, if she gave the Greyjoys sovereignty, why not the Starks?

Overall, the quality of the show is so high right now, especially in the writing. The only things I would even venture to criticize are a few acting moments here and there, but I usually just ignore that and fault the director anyway.

Okay, let's talk military tactics for a moment. Both sides learned some very important things. The Lannisters learned that the ballistas are their greatest strength. Drogon learned he needs to duck and weave — don't fly straight at the thing, dummy. Note that it was a very lucky shoulder shot, by the way. Dragons' scales become hard as armor when they get old enough, so that may be hard to duplicate. Can some kind of armor be fashioned to shore up their weak spots?

Either way, I think Dany clearly has the advantage. She can fly in close to the ground (that was smart) and make quick work of everyone while not being an exposed target in the sky. Obvious next step: Jon and Tyrion, since they are both Targaryens (come at me), need to get up on them other two dragons and join her. Book lore says that dragons do in fact need to be ridden; they can't just be sent into battle. I wonder if deploying all three dragons would provide too many targets for ballistas, or if they can properly support each other (cause like, imagine if Drogon had a buddy there). I'd say that if they're being ridden adeptly, it could work.

That's the air battle. On land, Daenerys appears to have both the numbers and the power. It's true Jaime made a point of saying they were spread thin there, but if the Unsullied can reconnect with Dany, those combined forces would seem to have a good chance.

Anyway, best ep since the end of last season. I'm so happy they're nailing this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 07, 2017, 04:22:47 PM
Yeah, that battle more than made up for the tame ones we got earlier this season.

So, is it too obvious to predict that Bronn was the one that saved Jaime and that he'll die (he had a brief moment of character redemption when he chose to fight instead of grab his gold so he's good to go), but Jaime will live and be captured and then we get some juicy scenes between him and Tyrian?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 07, 2017, 04:58:07 PM
I agree, Jaime being captured would seem to be the most narratively satisfying path. There's so much potential there that they wouldn't even have time for all of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 08, 2017, 09:26:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2wcBeyNdk


They're good.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 09, 2017, 01:34:25 PM
It's been interesting reading and hearing everyone's reactions to this episode. People seem to love the loot train battle scene because they don't know who to root for. That's clearly what was intended, too. But I sincerely had a very different but perhaps equally powerful reaction — burn them all. In the moment, I was ready for everyone on that battlefield to die in fire: Jaime, Bronn, Dickon, and anyone else supporting Cersei. I guess I've picked a side.

I think I was slightly wrong about Bronn, though — they clearly attempted a redemption arc within this episode, where he leaves the gold behind and goes to save Jaime, etc. I suppose I chose to remain skeptical that he actually has honor now.

I've been hearing a lot of speculation about a Jon and Dany marriage alliance. They clearly have chemistry and mutual admiration, right? Shared values, like I've been saying. Plus, aunt/nephew is barely even incest for Targaryens. It's almost not incest enough.

Bending the knee is also something one might do while proposing marriage. Would the Northerners be up for a such an alliance? That would give the North more power, right, since Jon would have influence over all seven kingdoms? Seems like a win/win/win.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 09, 2017, 06:52:37 PM
Yeah how everyone isn't fully on team Dany right now I have no idea. Rooting for the Lannisters at this point is like rooting for Trump, only Cersei is way smarter than Trump.

It's almost not incest enough.

 :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 09, 2017, 07:55:10 PM
I think I was slightly wrong about Bronn, though — they clearly attempted a redemption arc within this episode, where he leaves the gold behind and goes to save Jaime, etc. I suppose I chose to remain skeptical that he actually has honor now.

The thing I always loved about Bronn is that he's always been kind of above "honor" in that sense. He's a guy with a job, and he's going to punch his time card in and out every day and expect his paycheck at the end of the week. He's basically Jim from The Office, with the added benefit of being awesome at his job. I never saw him as in need of redemption, because he's so indisputably and unapologetically who he is. If he's experiencing an arc at this point, it's that he's discovering the added responsibilities that come with being promoted to upper management.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 10, 2017, 05:26:12 AM
He's an honest, brutal pragmatist, and that's his whole thing but I reckon there's a fair bit of humanity to him. He stopped for a moment before killing Ser Vardis but Lysa was too stupid to stop the fight. He was concerned for Tyrion when he had to turn down his champion request. There's also a deleted scene where he kinda comforts Shae.
This Jaime saving thing might be the whole Jaime can't pay his debts thing if he is dead thing but I think he's grown attached to both Lannisters and that's probably his biggest mistake as a (former) sellsword and that might be just what gets him killed.
I'm actually kinda worried Dany will have him killed for shooting Drogon.

The Jon/Dany thing has been kinda obvious this season. There's that part where she allows Jon to mine dragonglass and then Jon walks away and she gives him that brief glance and I was like "Ohhh, it's really gonna happen".
I was kinda hoping Jon would be like this lone wolf dude whose mind is set only on the WW but I'm actually happy to see this happen. They're related and all, but there's a precedent and they've existed apart from each other for almost their entire lives. At their core, they want to do the right thing. Makes sense as far as story goes also it's better than the original Jon, Arya and Tyrion love triangle GRRM planned years ago (really, this was a thing).

EDIT:

Promo images for next EP:
https://imgur.com/a/c610q
Look at that look in number 5.
I very much look forward to the scene from image 8. I miss those scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 13, 2017, 11:42:19 PM
THAT WAS SO GOOD.

I think this edges out last week as the best of the season so far. Every single scene was like wow I can't believe they're giving this to me. The character payoffs are off the charts now — this was exciting from top to bottom with no battle scenes.

I never imagined that seeing Jon pet a dragon would make me cry, but it sure did. And that was immediately followed by Jorah's return — too much!

That was the most convincing dragon shot we've seen so far, right? I was stunned. Then, the next scene with the ravens flying over the wall... good lord, that was one of the most beautiful images Game of Thrones has ever given us. The budget for this season must be ridiculous.

We don't even deserve this show.

Daenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.

I had been hoping that the white walkers would be fought without Cersei's help, making her a coward, and giving Daenerys infinite politcal capital for having saved the realm. That appears to be off the table... maybe.

One nitpick — it seems just a little unlikely that Jaime and Bronn could have escaped. I would have bought it more had Bronn pulled a drowned Jaime out of the river and revived him. It's possible Daenerys and Drogo had to immediately retreat just then. We didn't get to see it.

Seeing Randall and Dickon being burned alive blew my mind. Wait, are they actually doing this? Yep. I kind of wanted Drogo to eat them, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 14, 2017, 04:14:47 AM
Fun, fan-servicey episode. Next week is going to be absolutely bonkers.

I have to say the pacing was bizarre this episode. Threw me off. A lot of important stuff happened in this episode. Some of it weird. It felt like half a season in an episode.
I'm still not exactly feeling the writing but I'm enjoying the ride.

Yeah, there's no way Jaime and Bronn should have been able to get out of that alive.

I was sad to see Dickon die. He seemed like a good lad. Lord Tarly's reasoning was pretty lame- he was a Targ loyalist during the rebellion. Dany was born in Westeros and her father was his king. Which seems like a pretty good link to the country. He struggled for a scene to betray Olenna and then had the choice to live under a relatively fair Targ but decided against it. Maybe he just doesn't like them brown Dothrakis stealing dem soldier jobs. Anyway, they could have been useful assets.

I think Gilly just mentioned Jon has the best claim for the throne. Also, considering the secret marriage happened in Dorne, I wonder if Elia Martell was in on it. Otherwise Rhaegar was one cold-ass dude. It would be cool and a little dark if it was revealed if he actually was all calculating and prophecy-obsessed and not actually in love with Lyanna and just saw her as a tool.

I'm happy to see Jorah again, all useful and non-gross.

Beyond the wall dream team is awesome. On a very stupid little mission but it's awesome.
Though I'm worried because they are all amazing characters and I can't picture all of them surviving.

Leave Sansa alone, you big meanie. Arya was kinda annoying in that scene.

God, Littlefinger is a fucking creep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 06:41:51 AM
What's good has been talked about, so I'll just say:

—the show is trying to sell Littlefinger as some kind of genius ahead of everybody but the show isn't clever enough to have him do something really clever, it's the most robotic aspect of the show, let him die, please...(They'll probably gonna kill him at the end of the season, Dorne-like way, because they have nothing for him.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 14, 2017, 07:18:17 AM
The dude was a genius schemer way ahead of everyone when they had the books to draw on but maybe the 'broad strokes' provided to the showrunners didn't include LF's later plans. Varys has lost his power in a way too. There's something great in the idea that all his schemes lead him to fizzle out in The North but it hasn't been that interesting to watch this season. I did really enjoy watching him skulking in the corner but it's hard to believe that ninja Arya got out-stealthed by this dude.
I suppose 'the game' becomes more irrelevant as the winter apocalypse approaches and that's why LF can't contribute much.

It's really hard to imagine how the next season will even be structured and paced.

I'm also struggling to see what they plan to do with Euron. I hope it's something really surprising. I want him to be relevant to the final WW plotline somehow and not just some edgy mini-boss detour.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 14, 2017, 08:40:59 AM
Daenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.

I was worried their relationship would feel forced but it's totally believable to me. The little glances they have given each other through the episodes - it has been one of my favorite things this season. They are also the two hottest characters so of course they would be attracted to each other!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 12:20:52 PM
Yup. And that exchange when he leaves:

Jon: If I don't return, at least you won't have to deal with the King in the North anymore.
Dany: I've grown used to him... *wink*

It's the equivalent of passing a note in class that says "I like you." This could be the first time Daenerys is falling in love organically. It seems to really help that Jon is her equal and carries himself as such.

Also, you know how I've been harping on their shared values? Dany, after her arrival, said to Jon: "we both want to help people." And clearly her desire in that conversation was convincing Jon that, sure, her methods seem a little violent, but so was Battle of the Bastards — they're both on the same page and want the same thing.

Anyway:

Daenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 14, 2017, 02:24:05 PM
Daenerys kind of lost me this episode, or maybe she's always been ruthless and we're just seeing it more now. Her whole "I'm fighting for the poor people, but if you don't join me I'll kill you" schtick its pretty evil. She couldn't have captured those guys who refused to bend the knee, or give them a more painless death?

Pacing is odd, but there is generally no fat in these episodes so it's easy to let slide. I agree some of the writing is great, other times it's very exposition heavy and clunky.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 02:41:24 PM
I never liked her. She's a spoiled child with delusion of grandeur in love with the idea of what she represents. Still better than Cersei, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 02:59:25 PM
Daenerys kind of lost me this episode, or maybe she's always been ruthless and we're just seeing it more now. Her whole "I'm fighting for the poor people, but if you don't join me I'll kill you" schtick its pretty evil. She couldn't have captured those guys who refused to bend the knee, or give them a more painless death?

I mean, this is the same Daenerys that crucified the masters along the road to Meereen. She's softened up. Don't forget her Dothraki training and her family history of "fire and blood" (their house words). The point of Daenerys is that she is fierce and violent (which you have to be to conquer in that world) but also has egalitarian ideals. I feel like we need to meet this story halfway with a little cultural relativism, which should be easier to accept in this fiction. (And for me, it really is.)

She invited all the remaining Lannister soldiers (including the commander!) to join her and offered her trust in exchange. But Randyll was like "nope, kill me" and Dickon was like "me too!" In the scene that followed, Dany took no particular joy in burning them. It was an explicit parallel to Ned carrying out the execution in the beginning of season 1. Dany even formally sentenced them in the same way: "I, Daenerys of house Targaryen, first of my name, breaker of chains and mother of dragons, sentence you to die."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on August 14, 2017, 03:14:49 PM
Daenerys kind of lost me this episode, or maybe she's always been ruthless and we're just seeing it more now.

And although it was an ultimatum, the decision was their choice; more freedom than Dany has seen from most rulers.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 03:30:08 PM
Also, as Lottery said, Randyll Tarly was a Targaryen loyalist and actually fought against Robert to keep the Targaryens in power. Wouldn't be a stretch for him to join Daenerys, but he chose suicide. Strange for him to use "foreign invaders" as a pejorative when that's what the Targaryens were. Maybe he really was hung up on the Dothraki. Or perhaps this would have been one loyalty switch too many, and he wanted to go down in the history books as a principled hero.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 14, 2017, 04:43:54 PM
First the things that bothered me.

The biggest. Jaime and Bronn getting out of there so easy, I mean it should be logical that Dany would send for them, she literally saw them jump in the water, there's no way that went unnoticed.

Sansa and Arya’s conflict of nothing. I really hope they don't prolong this idiotic rivalry which could be cleared up with a conversation that lasts less than 5 seconds: “why did you write that letter?!” “I didn't! Cersei did.” And on top of this they have Bran who sees everything. AND, Arya has many faces, she shouldn't need to sneak in to spy on LF.


Now the good stuff.

That scene of Jon and the dragon was something else, the emotions of both him and Dany were great, and Drogon was a like a cute kitten that smells you and knows you're his friend. I wonder if Dany knows Tyrion set free the other two dragons...she has to right?

Literate Gilly FTW. She's about to mention Jon Snow's parents and Sam suddenly had it and has to leave immediately? (not that he knows that of course). OK, but the interesting part here is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married for a brief time, therefore Jon is NOT a bastard.

Oh and Cersei is pregnant! That should be interesting, maybe more so in her than any other character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 05:02:34 PM
Oh and Cersei is pregnant! That should be interesting, maybe more so in her than any other character.

Yeah. Does anyone still think Jaime is going to kill her? Seems even less likely given the new circumstances. Arya-as-Jaime is looking pretty good right now. Think of how heartbreaking and confusing that would be for Cersei, too. It would also be thematically interesting that Arya is killing an unborn child to avenge the Red Wedding, which also killed an unborn child.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 05:37:10 PM
No. I read the pregnancy as "Jaime will kill Cersei AND his unborn child". Which will be a sad way to create a G.R.R moment. But maybe I'm wrong; I still can't imagine Jaime not killing his sister. Even if Cersei being okay with whatever is happening because it is easier for the plot was weird...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 05:45:01 PM
Has Jaime even started on the path to believing Cersei needs to be killed? As much as we'd like to believe that, I don't see evidence for it. He's a little scared of her, but he clearly still loves her more than life itself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 14, 2017, 05:52:13 PM
When she'll decide to sacrifice everybody, even herself, in order not to be killed by Dany, he'll struggle...Now? Will he be blinded by his love? He still thinks Cersei isn't crazy. She'll do something even more crazy than what she already did. To me, that's the journey of Jaime.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 14, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
I'm not convinced Cersei isn't lying about the baby. She feels Jaime slipping out of her fingers, and she knows the one trump card she can still pull out of her deck. And Jaime finding out about this lie could be a pretty powerful final straw to snap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 14, 2017, 09:14:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLSx_ckJeXI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 14, 2017, 10:22:01 PM
Cersei's already had 3 gold-haired kids. If the witch's prophecy right, it's either a lie or baby no. 4 ain't gonna make it. Jaime killing her would be a cool way to ensure that both prophecies will be fulfilled, she'll only ever have 3 kids and the whole younger brother valonqar business.

As far as Dany goes,  she's been pretty reasonable in terms of warfare. Burning people alive is uncool but Cersei's (and Tyrion) guilty of that too and she did it to innocents. Dany has given survivors a choice. She has shown a fair bit of restraint considering her potential. Realistically, she could have easily won the war already in a few months then focused on the WW but I guess the super duper dream team kidnapping a zombie to convince Cersei is more important.
In any case, she's closer to Aegon than the Mad King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on August 14, 2017, 10:49:21 PM

Anyway:

Daenerys appears to have a pretty intense crush on Jon. That is definitely not subtext anymore. We'll have to add some screencaps. But wow, she was basically batting her eyes at him, then when he wanted to leave she seemed equally terrified she'd lose him and inspired by his bravery and selflessness.

"Eastwatch4.jpg" is such a great moment/expression. Kudos to Emilia Clarke ~
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 14, 2017, 11:37:26 PM
Totally. This is one of her best-acted episodes for sure. Some actors she seems to work well with; Kit is one of them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 15, 2017, 02:52:22 PM
I'm not convinced Cersei isn't lying about the baby. She feels Jaime slipping out of her fingers, and she knows the one trump card she can still pull out of her deck. And Jaime finding out about this lie could be a pretty powerful final straw to snap.

That would be fun, but I do think Cersei is pregnant for real. It appears that’s what Qyburn was talking to her about. Maybe that was part of a show, but probably not.

This would give her some additional character motivation. Now that her house has a potential future, she might behave less recklessly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 15, 2017, 02:53:57 PM
Apparently a lot of people did not like this episode. Some are even worried about the direction the show is going. And I’m getting annoyed with the nature of the criticism. Why didn’t they explain this? Why don’t they have time for this thing? Why am I not getting this thing that I want? Why haven’t they mentioned the sword? So much whining about every little detail. Just let it happen and see what they have in store for us.

A lot of the criticism is about the insanity of what's being set up. But I’m fine with crazy things happening. I think people have forgotten that this has been promised all along. Just as Lost teased us about the glowing energy at the heart of the island, Game of Thrones has teased us about those white walkers from the very first episode. A promise was made that things are going to get nuts. Not entirely sure that people will be equipped to handle it.

I’m fine with the final season doing bonkers things that the show hasn’t done before. Not only do I tolerate that, I love it. (See Lost and Battlestar Galactica.)

I can’t be bothered to worry about logistics right now. This does not strike me as the time to be obsessed about dumb little things. As far as I’m concerned, Game of Thrones can do what it wants, as long as the show doesn’t violate the spirit of its narrative or the nature of its characters.

That’s why I didn’t like the finale of Breaking Bad, but I loved the finale of Lost, and its final season, with the core of my being. It felt like its very soul was unfolding and being revealed to us. Same with Battlestar Galactica, essentially. That last season was clearly what the show always wanted to be and was true to its characters along the way.

Game of Thrones is doing something similar. This split final season is kind of a different show — it’s an intense race to the finish that is just not interested in explaining everything. And yet its characterization has been pitch perfect. Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Olenna, Bronn, Cersei — they continue to be emphatically themselves, with dialogue as sharp as ever. Jaime especially. What we want him to be and what he actually is are two different things. Agonizingly, we still see his potential — note his joke last week about confessing his sins to the high septon.

I will acknowledge issues when I see them. For example, I share the concern about the Sansa/Arya storyline. I desperately hope Arya sees through Littlefinger's plot (eventually if not very soon) and uses that to pivot against him. Maybe that’s where Sansa’s quotation comes in: “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.”
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: WorldForgot on August 15, 2017, 05:23:10 PM

That’s why I didn’t like the finale of Breaking Bad, but I loved the finale of Lost, and its final season, with the core of my being. It felt like its very soul was unfolding and being revealed to us. Same with Battlestar Galactica, essentially. That last season was clearly what the show always wanted to be and was true to its characters along the way.

Game of Thrones is doing something similar. This split final season is kind of a different show — it’s an intense race to the finish that is just not interested in explaining everything.

This is well illustrated by Gilly and Sam's getaway from the Maesters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 16, 2017, 10:41:34 AM
How do you guys feel about these leaks? I mean episode 6 is right there for us to watch a whole 5 days early... but there's something about watching the episodes before they officially come out that doesn't feel right  :shock:

And by the way HBO used to be the kings of secrecy and security, but lately it's gotten bad. It's not even hacks, it's just sloppiness...

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
Not thrilled and not watching it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 16, 2017, 01:17:58 PM
How do you guys feel about these leaks? I mean episode 6 is right there for us to watch a whole 5 days early... but there's something about watching the episodes before they officially come out that doesn't feel right  :shock:

And by the way HBO used to be the kings of secrecy and security, but lately it's gotten bad. It's not even hacks, it's just sloppiness...

I have to wait longer for the last episode, but whatever, I'm watching it... it's in pretty good quality this time too.

is it allowed to discuss the leaked episode here?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 16, 2017, 01:20:24 PM
Not thrilled and not watching it.

Same here, IF someone does, please don't post until it airs...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 16, 2017, 01:20:38 PM
I don't care. I download them anyway so I don't have that moment in front of my TV and time flies so fast that I won't have to really wait before the finale is upon us. And this one is in HD. I already watched it.

I'd rather wait before JB watches it before writing about it here, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2017, 01:43:58 PM
Yeah, please don't say anything here until Sunday night.

My main reason for not watching it is I want to be in the same place in the conversation cycle. And it would only make the wait for the finale that much longer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 16, 2017, 02:00:32 PM
So this might be the only time I will have something worthy to say about it here.

I'll have 5 days to think about it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 16, 2017, 03:27:00 PM
My main reason for not watching it is I want to be in the same place in the conversation cycle.

Exactly. GoT is one of the last of its kind, which is making each final episode even more special to me. As most of our content will now be released and binged all at once on streaming networks, it's nice to have one final show to freak out about week by week. I guess Breaking Bad was the last show big enough to command the same weekly audience and subsequent social media freakout.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 16, 2017, 03:56:55 PM
But won't most people download the leaked version and watch it anyway?

I watched it and now I don't have to worry about spoilers. I'd recommend people to watch it because it won't be fun to be spoiled. I can't believe how these episodes is getting leaked. I don't remember other big shows getting leaked it the same extent that GoT has.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 16, 2017, 04:21:05 PM
I don't know who they let upload the episodes on streaming websites but they often make mistakes. It happened twice with Twin Peaks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 18, 2017, 08:59:31 PM
Well, I'm on a 12 hour flight and couldn't resist. I watched it. Oh boy...

I'm losing my shit. If anyone wants to discuss send me a message. I can't believe there is only one episode left until next year.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 18, 2017, 11:08:51 PM
Well, I'm on a 12 hour flight and couldn't resist. I watched it. Oh boy...

I'm losing my shit. If anyone wants to discuss send me a message. I can't believe there is only one episode left until next year.

you are 182:th. congratz.

yeah, I wish we all had seen it so we could talk about it.

edit: no i'm sorry, 187 is the number... but that's also a good number so congratz

edit 2: i'm 182th actually, so congratz to me
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Tictacbk on August 19, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
I like all this member number talk (seriously). But can we keep the leaked episode talk down to a minimum? I'm one of those assholes who considers stuff like it being an episode worth losing your shit over, and even being an episode you wouldn't want spoiled...to be a spoiler. Excited for Sunday!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 19, 2017, 09:21:37 AM
I like all this member number talk (seriously). But can we keep the leaked episode talk down to a minimum? I'm one of those assholes who considers stuff like it being an episode worth losing your shit over, and even being an episode you wouldn't want spoiled...to be a spoiler. Excited for Sunday!

I am also one of those assholes. Please don't discuss leaks in any way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 19, 2017, 10:53:37 AM
Those of us waiting until Sunday should probably just stay out of this thread altogether until then.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 19, 2017, 04:41:53 PM
Alright everyone relax. If every episode didn't have something important at this point I don't know why anyone would be watching...

We'll discuss tomorrow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 20, 2017, 08:12:36 AM
An article written last year.

"The creators of Game of Thrones also struggle with these multiple contexts, and their struggles are often direct causes of the story’s controversies. For the author, George R.R. Martin, the issue is this: how do you take a series whose momentum is based on sabotaging how stories are supposed to work…and then make the story work? His inability to answer this successfully is, in my opinion, the most likely cause of his later novels taking three times longer to come out than his earlier ones. There isn’t an answer, I suspect, and diminishing returns are inevitable.
For the television series, it’s more complicated. The crucial question is this: How do you take a story that’s written as a deliberate repudiation of 1990s fantasy norms and make it work, twenty years later, with an audience that didn’t necessarily grow up with Terry Brooks and Robert Jordan novels? The story is generally strong enough that it’s managed to survive and thrive; the failures of the Starks are not just reversals of fantasy convention but overall storytelling convention. But the longer the series goes, the less able it is to draw upon such clear subversions."

https://medium.com/@RowanKaiser/in-conclusion-game-of-thrones-is-a-franchise-of-contrasts-3bc9bd8f4f40
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 20, 2017, 10:03:23 PM
A lot of folks aren't happy with this episode it seems. At this point, I can definitely understand the concerns regarding writing quality but it still remains a largely enjoyable show.

Winterfell has been awful for the second half of the season, there better be an awesome payoff for all of this foolishness (I'm hoping that in giving Sansa the knife, Arya in her own weird way shown her trust of Sansa). I reckon Arya's story peaked in S4 while Sansa's S6 onwards has been enjoyable to watch. Unfortunate to see Sansa in such a lame storyline.

Anyway, the main component of the episode. So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes. I'm, of course, very iffy on marathon Gendry, supersonic Ravens, nick-of-time Dany. Pacing has been a matter of discussion this season and I thought this episode would avoid those issues but I guess not. It's sad that Thoros died- and I suppose his death was used to demonstrate the passing of time (due to exposure). Logically, it may have worked but it doesn't feel right (like last ep's KL trip).  Above all, I'm more annoyed by the waste of Benjen. You have Dany arriving seconds before imminent doom and then Benjen. It was a disappointing sacrifice. I'm just going to pretend that Bran warged the ravens to fly faster and also summoned Benjen to help Jon.

Also, it appears the conclusion of the war might just be kill Night King and blam, all the zombies die. I guess he's some sort of Super-Warg. So in a way, he's not the arch-nemesis of Jon, but he's the arch-nemesis of Bran (like the 3ER before him).
It would be cool to think that NK doesn't even see Jon as a threat, he does things slowly because he has all the time in the world, any act of war against him results in only more troops for him. He probably thinks victory is a given.
I'm still curious about WW motivations though.

Anyway, I have to say, for all its faults, a lot of it is forgiven because of that last scene with Dany and Jon. Some may call it cheesy and him calling her Dany was probably a bit odd but I'm a real sucker for those sort of scenes. I like it story-wise as she's demonstrated her worth to Jon so he believes bending the knee is the right thing to do and Jon finally joining her really touched something deep in her because she's come to admire and respect this selfless (silly stubborn hero) dude. And they're obviously in love.

- Remarkably cinematic episode
- War table shot cutting to beyond the wall was great
- Some great action
- I love all the characters in the BtW team, happy most of them survived (RIP Red Priest)
- Beric was a standout this episode
- More Jorah is always welcome, happy to see him get a long with Jon
- I was so scared that Tormund was going to die when he was getting dragged by the wights
- Dragon Wight is way hardcore
- I wonder what would have happened if Drogon turned around and sprayed NK, he's probably dracarysproof
- I miss Theon
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 20, 2017, 10:25:25 PM
So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes.

Yes, and it's hard to not enjoy them whatever we think of the story. The scenes were impressive. It wasn't as good as Hardhome because, outside of the dragons, you realize it is mostly people waiting and fighting inside of a circle an army that should kill them in a few seconds but everything in that show is done the best way it could be done. And it also had the scene with the zombie bears: I loved that one, it scared the shit out of me.

The storyline in Winterfell is very painful to watch but, if I understood correctly, it's all good between Sansa and Arya now? Good, I guess...
Also: the same way that Littlefinger is supposed to be some kind of great strategist while doing nothing of substance, Bran having superpowers and not doing much with them is becoming a big flaw...He's also a sociopath who doesn't care about anything so it can make some kind of sense...But I'd rather watch Bran using his powers (the scene with the ravens was beautiful, like JB said) than watching Maisie Williams struggling to play bad material the best way she can...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 20, 2017, 11:08:37 PM
[Posting this without reading any replies or reviews yet. Also, it got long, so I included subheads.]


Welp this is going to be a divisive one for sure. I pretty much loved it by the end, though. Why? Because we've fully crossed over into bonkers fantasy, that's not going to stop, and I'm prepared.

I'll get some quibbles out of the way first. Feel free to rebut any of them, because I did love this episode...

– Build-up to the blue eye was at least 5 seconds too long. We all knew what was going to happen.
– Benjen had time, right? Maybe he needed to serve as a distraction, but that wasn't communicated well.
– Tyrion's fireside dialogue was not good. He sounded like an idiot. Dany's responses were great though, so maybe a wash.


Pre-emptive fan-splaining

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

[Just emailed that ^ in as podcast feedback, complete with a clickbait subject line. If it makes it in, I can die happy.]

The real dumb one here is Arya. That's going to break a lot of people's hearts — fans who've been rooting for her from the beginning. Well guess what, this is what Arya has become. It's quite dark. A couple more crucial things to note here. Arya made much of her lie detector test. Sansa appears to have passed it. Inevitable conclusion: Arya performs this test on Littlefinger and he fails.

Just based on the responses to this season, I know people are going to complain hardcore about that raven. I thought they conveyed clearly that significant time had passed — Thoros had completely frozen, and the rest of them were not far behind. Also someone on Reddit did the math (https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6u75t3/lets_do_the_math_on_how_long_it_would_take_a/), and it seems to check out, although it is very close:

Quote
In conclusion: It seems to me that the just over 4 day travel time required for Dany to to receive the Raven and fly to Eastwatch, seems to line up accurately with the amount of time it would take ice to grow enough to support an army of undead to fight on top of it in those conditions.

This was a truly frightening episode, wasn't it? The journey beyond the wall, Dany and Tyrion fighting, and ice-cold Arya. I don't think I have been more afraid during an episode from the beginning to the end. I really wonder if that deep unease — feeling lost, like you don't really know this world, like anything could happen — is going to color people's assessment of this episode. But I welcome all of that. It really was time for the show to punish us again.


A contrarian opinion that you will find convincing

Tyrion and Jon's plan turned out to be just as dumb as expected. But, four mitigating points:

(1) They have both proven themselves to be horrible strategists.

(2) People do dumb things. I don't mind seeing that in GoT. It happens a lot. This is certainly not competence porn. Mistakes in this show quite often lead to difficulty — and there were very real consequences here.

(3) The plan is one of those "so crazy it just might work" scenarios. I am fine with that, because this episode feels very true in a way to the spirit of GoT — even an improbable and heroic win creates new challenges. The feel of the story right now might even presage the "bittersweet" ending that Martin envisions.

(4) Jon expressing regret (finally confessing his stupidity?) went a long way for me. And then of course we get to the real point of this venture, which was showing Daenerys. "You don't really know until you see," she said. Cersei is just a bonus. Dany is going to win this thing. Now it's personal.


If this boat's a-rockin'...

The final 18 minutes, starting with Dany's arrival, was 100% gold. Probably one of my favorite stretches in the show's history. And the scene between Jon and Dany — wow, they nailed that so hard. Speaking of which, Dany looked like she was about to jump him right then and there, were it not for him being almost dead.

When Jon said "how about my queen" my head literally exploded. I don't have a head anymore. For some reason that hit me like a ton of bricks — like, wait, did I fantasize that line, or did it actually just happen? Beautiful performances there. Now these two have really been through some shit together, as they say. It's remarkable how this is one of the most vividly realized relationships ever done on the show, and it was fully accomplished in the space of 4 episodes, even admist everything else that's been happening.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 21, 2017, 09:26:25 AM
"So the plan was pretty damn stupid but it resulted in some pretty great scenes."

The scene with the bears was terrifying. It scared me. Once the army of walkers are around them I knew the show was just waiting for dragons and that they were safe.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: ©brad on August 21, 2017, 04:22:52 PM
I don't necessary agree with this (http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-timeline-chronology-problems.html) Vulture article from beginning to end in regards to GoT's perceived problem with time and place, but it does bring up some interesting points for debate:

"There’s an even bigger issue with scrapping the commonplace logic that it takes a long time to get to faraway places: Without firm rules about time and geography, suddenly everything becomes possible. The pressures that create obstacles for our beloved and reviled characters no longer feel all that hard to overcome. The strategic cost of sending Jon Snow beyond the Wall to collect a wight would be massive if he were taking himself out of the diplomatic game for episodes on end, and his near-death moment in the ambush would be similarly colossal. Instead, we’re left with … you know, the battle is cool! The dragons are cool! But it doesn’t feel all that astonishing or impressive when Dany saves them, because apparently flying across the continent is just a thing someone can do without any further explanation.

This is the real problem with abandoning incontrovertible rules for space and time, even in a made-up universe like the one in Game of Thrones. Once your audience notices the fictional world is fickle, the seams of the whole thing become visible. Once you’ve seen behind the curtain of how the story works, you look at each event in the narrative for what it really is (a decision made to push the story forward) rather than what you’d like it to be (the story as a story, the end)."


Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 21, 2017, 08:17:29 PM
Has it leaked yet?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 04:32:15 PM
Re: timelines, rules, perceived inconsistencies.

The bottom line is that Game of Thrones does not have time to explain everything. Usually you can come up with a very reasonable explanation without too much effort. As film fans, we take for granted that the audience should have to do a lot of the work — we are even excited when a film demands that of us. Why should that be different for a TV show?

There was even a prime example in this episode: When Jon & friends were stuck on that island, they barely said a single word about what was happening — we really did have to figure it out. I deeply respect this show for sticking to its principles even as the pace increases.

People think they want to see all the explanations, but they don't. They really don't. We already have a lot of shows and movies that do that, and they are generally not good.

I am severely disappointed in the critical community right now. Even the AV Club reviews have been kind of trash all season. I guess that's what happens when you don't have screeners and are forced to put something together in 2 hours. You're just cramming for a test at that point, probably not even enjoying the viewing experience very much. What a profoundly stupid approach.

So many Game of Thrones reviews and podcasts are mostly just evaluating what's good and what's bad about an episode. If you spend all your time doing that, you just don't have time to analyze much of anything. Evaluation and analysis are two very different things. But this is what GoT has done. It's spawned an industry of evaluators and nitpickers.

"Let's just go through the episode and describe all the ways in which it's not perfect." Okay, but why? What value are you even providing to Game of Thrones fans?

And trust me, I've tried pretty much all the podcasts.

"Nerdette Recaps Game of Thrones" — 50% nitpicking, 30% evaluation, 10% what the books do better, 10% actual analysis (being generous). This is a somewhat entertaining but truly insufferable podcast. I deleted it last season, tried it this season but sure enough deleted it out of frustration once again.

“A Cast of Kings” & “Binge Mode” — These are about half evaluation and half analysis. Above average podcasts. I’m skipping them this week, though.

“Game of Thrones the Podcast” from Bald Move — This is still the best GoT podcast, and it’s not even close. Deep analysis and consistently entertaining. There is some nitpicking, but it’s always put in perspective.

I could rant some more, but I should probably leave it there for now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 22, 2017, 05:12:06 PM
If you do the work you have to make the assumption that someone discovered a teleportation machine and that the show failed to mention it somehow. I'm not saying they should show the boring parts or anything, they could go as fast as they are while maintaining the fabric of the world of Game of Thrones. The fact that things take time should impact the events. You can skip all you want, but you should not treat the story as an easy gateway to everything you want. As entertaining and well done as this season can be, thinking about it is what brings it down.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 22, 2017, 05:25:39 PM
– Tyrion's fireside dialogue was not good. He sounded like an idiot. Dany's responses were great though, so maybe a wash.

Couldn't agree more, she is right to wait UNTIL she is officially Queen of everything. (ok I'm assuming you meant when discussing who will be her heir)

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

That's an interesting take, still it seems to me that their fight should end by explaining just a few key events, where did Arya find the message?

Sansa did try to get her to reason but wouldn't listen to her, she said to her what I said last week that Cersei forced her, maybe not by putting a knife in her throat but with the threat of killing their father, still Arya wouldn't have it, she's so narrow minded.

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

I don't think either will die because that's too dumb, both have survived greater horrors to meet an end for this dumb quarrel.

A couple more crucial things to note here. Arya made much of her lie detector test. Sansa appears to have passed it. Inevitable conclusion: Arya performs this test on Littlefinger and he fails.

Maybe Arya is playing a game, one that will lead to the demise of Little Finger...



Forgetting about the time that passes what happened in the north worked for me, from the moment Dany appears with two dragons I knew one had to go down, maybe this is dumb but I wonder if that dragon will shoot fire or ice...

I think Dany truly fell in love with Jon when he stays to fight instead of flying away, bravery and selflessness is a big thing for her.


That WW that Jon kills has been killed three times now, at least two by his hand here and in Hardhome, and one by Sam which I'm not sure if it's the same one.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 06:47:02 PM
If you do the work you have to make the assumption that someone discovered a teleportation machine and that the show failed to mention it somehow.

Which instance of travel this season cannot be explained by the passage of time? The chronology seems pretty easy to understand.

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

That WW that Jon kills has been killed three times now, at least two by his hand here and in Hardhome, and one by Sam which I'm not sure if it's the same one.

That can't be the same one, from what I understand. I don't think we really know how many proper white walkers there are. How many babies did Craster give up? If they catch someone alive, they can probably turn them into one too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 22, 2017, 07:44:39 PM
Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

I think it's also an important point that Bran (3ER), doesn't really know everything. He's capable of knowing everything, but Bran's training in the ways of three-eyed ravenry was massively truncated, and he's still figuring out how the hell it all works. At best, he can pick out bits and pieces from the overwhelming agglomerate of information that's flowing through him.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 22, 2017, 08:12:31 PM
Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

I think it's also an important point that Bran (3ER), doesn't really know everything. He's capable of knowing everything, but Bran's training in the ways of three-eyed ravenry was massively truncated, and he's still figuring out how the hell it all works. At best, he can pick out bits and pieces from the overwhelming agglomerate of information that's flowing through him.

the bran thing is interesting. the complaints about him not doing anything is silly because he knows so much more then anyone else and maybe he know he doesn't have to save jon beyond the wall or sansa/arya from little finger or whatever. because they'll make it anyway.

also, as JB said, he's not Bran anymore. he clearly doesn't care about little things because he see's the big picture. he probably also busy trying to figure out if it's past, now or future atm. i mean, he hooked himself with a tree and thinks he's a tree eyed raven. the kid is fucked up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 22, 2017, 09:20:40 PM
Here's what the director had to say about the events of the episode/pacing:
Quote
“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy. We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff. It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly. If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns.”

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall-timeline-director-1202534403/

Pretty iffy on that last sentence but whatevs.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 22, 2017, 10:23:21 PM
Oof, you're not kidding, that last sentence is garbage. I read another interview with Alan Taylor, and he was sort of unconvincing there too. I do think a lot of the complaints could have been prevented with another minute or two of screen time. This director doesn't seem interested enough in that. I hope they've learned a few lessons for next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 22, 2017, 10:38:29 PM

So many Game of Thrones reviews and podcasts are mostly just evaluating what's good and what's bad about an episode. If you spend all your time doing that, you just don't have time to analyze much of anything. Evaluation and analysis are two very different things. But this is what GoT has done. It's spawned an industry of evaluators and nitpickers.


A bit off subject, but I've noticed critics and society these days (even Twitter) are too much about bitching and complaining and less about trying to find the positive side or giving things deeper analysis. People love to find something wrong everywhere and that's not a good way to enjoy life.

This is the good and bad side of watching shows week to week. You think about each thing too much. When I watched seasons 1-6 in a span of 3 months last year, it was magical because I was totally immersed in the story and the journey and didn't give two fucks about some spotty dialogue or a badly directed sequence. It's a marathon and not a sprint. GoT is about enjoying the ride, being patient, and for all of us who got immersed in the story it's beautiful and incredible to see some of the payoffs of the past episode, from dragons burning WW, to all those crazy characters coming together and fighting for their survival as a team, to the Daenerys and Jon relationship and so much more that has happened this season.

I love that I can analyze and discuss the episodes with people after they happen, but I don't need all the bitching and complaining. I'm focusing on having a great time and seeing where they will take us next. As much as some things have become a little more predictable (we were all waiting for dragons to show up and save the day), we still have no clue what will happen next and that is awesome.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 22, 2017, 11:45:56 PM
...I was totally immersed in the story and the journey and didn't give two fucks about some spotty dialogue or a badly directed sequence. It's a marathon and not a sprint. GoT is about enjoying the ride, being patient, and for all of us who got immersed in the story.

On that note, I think this is what a lot of fans miss the most. Some fans do want everything to be slow and clear, each and every sequence followed through carefully, every conversation being on screen etc. GOT is unconventional fantasy for most but arguably the most attractive aspect of fantasy is possibility of getting lost in the world and story and previous seasons probably catered to those fans very well. Everyone expects the climax of the show to speed things up but I don't think anyone expected things to go this fast. For a lot of people, GOT was about letting things unfold gradually, they probably consider S7 to be very pretty cliff notes in a way.
Of course, the reality is that GOT cannot be the show it once was because we're in the third act, we're at a point of the story where the old rules no longer apply and the writing just isn't there to support it. I am very interested in seeing how GRRM continues the story (whenever the books come out).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 23, 2017, 12:15:18 AM
There's probably an interview about this somewhere, but I suspect it has to do with being able to release the final season in a timely manner. Production time increases as the spectacle increases. And with this story, the spectacle is increasing and not letting up. It's already going to take them quite a long time to deliver these final 13 episodes. Imagine how long it would take to produce 20.

I would also guess this: D&D are uncomfortable filling in too many details in this final stretch when all they have to go on is GRRM's bullet points. Better to keep it streamlined than attempt to do a full-blown imitation of Martin's gradually unfolding tapestry. They are really doing the best they can.

That's just where we are, and it's no one's fault but Martin's. We are going to get two different endings to this story. (Assuming, you know, those books get written.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 23, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
We are going to get two different endings to this story. (Assuming, you know, those books get written.)

I am hoping that everyone is aligned enough so that doesn't happen though. It would suck to have to very different endings, especially knowing the TV one will come first and the book one would probably end up being better. It's hard to imagine a better ending after you have already seen it (as long as the TV ending doesn't suck.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 23, 2017, 10:44:52 AM
Subhead from a new Vox article today: "Where did those big chains come from? And many, many other questions."

This kind of trash is all over the internet right now. There were chains somewhere beyond the wall. The Night King acquired them. Question answered. WHO CARES? Are people really this bored?

I just have a queasy feeling, like this is yet another show where many fans will be determined to sabotage their own experience in the final stretch. If you actively try to erode your suspension of disbelief, you will be successful.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 23, 2017, 10:51:54 AM
I am hoping that everyone is aligned enough so that doesn't happen though. It would suck to have to very different endings, especially knowing the TV one will come first and the book one would probably end up being better. It's hard to imagine a better ending after you have already seen it (as long as the TV ending doesn't suck.)

GRRM talks a lot about being a gardener instead of an architect in terms of writing but I can't imagine he doesn't have some sort of endpoint he's focused on. He must have some vague idea of how certain characters will meet, how they'll manage the Westeros crisis, how the WW get vanquished, which main characters live and die etc
He's mentioned a bittersweet ending which seems to imply that some key decisions have been made.

It's safe to assume some of the most crucial elements will be in place in both show and story. How we get to the end is anybody's guess. There's a whole bunch of notable discrepancies between the book and the show. There is one character with a ridiculous amount of potential story significance that has been cut entirely from the show. So we might see a very different story towards the end. For dedicated fans, they'll get to experience the delight of Jon meeting Dany amongst other scenes in a relatively fresh new way.

A lot of fans have reached the stage where they think the books are never coming out but I'm really, really hoping the dude manages to put out the last books and to do it well. It will be fascinating to compare the two works.

EDIT:
GRRM:
Quote
How independent are the showrunners from you? Simply put: could they save the life of a character you’ve decided to kill? Or could they kill someone who’s still alive in your books?"

"They are independent. They can do whatever they want. I don’t have any power… any contractual right to [stop them]. I consult with them. I talk to them on a regular basis. Of course, years ago, we had a series of very long meetings, where I told them some of the big twists and turns and huge events that were coming in the last few books. So they’ve been touching [on] some of these, and doing some of the reveals, but they have also been departing in various ways.

The biggest one is one that you just mentioned: probably right now, right as we talk, there are close to 20 characters who are dead on the show, who are still alive in the books. Some of them are very minor characters, but also there are major characters, like Rickon Stark, Barristan Selmy, Myrcella Baratheon. All of them — dead on the show, but alive in the books.

Cool that he describes those 3 as major characters.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 27, 2017, 11:30:51 PM
BOOM!

I know I've said it before, but I think this is the best episode of the series. At the very least, it stands side by side with The Winds of Winter. It was the same kind of surreal viewing experience — in some moments I couldn’t believe what I was seeing because my dreams were being so thoroughly fulfilled.

What makes this episode so great? It's deeply and relentlessly character-driven. Almost in a literal sense. You feel every character's motivation propelling this thing along. Any character beat that wasn't pitch-perfect was later revealed to be part of a twist, making it more perfect. This was truly a magnificent thing to watch.

I think this is my proudest moment of GoT observation; I didn't hear it echoed anywhere, but I was 100% convinced:

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

When Sansa turned her head and said "Littlefinger," I literally started clapping and continued to do so at various points throughout that spectacular scene. It was the most paying payoff of all payoffs. I still can't believe it actually happened. God bless this show.

I'm interested in what lands and territory Cersei will attempt to claim while she has the chance. Does anyone have an idea? Will she overextend and get caught up in the battle anyway? Who are we kidding, of course she will. The Golden Company could be a fascinating thing here, too. From what I understand, they are mostly Westerosi exiles who want to return home. Will they be inspired by Daenerys & Jon's heroism and switch sides? Who are we kidding, of course they will. That little scene with Tyrion tempting Bronn might even foreshadow this development. I can see Bronn leading the Golden Company, too, since he's also a mercenary. That would be an epic way for him to switch sides, which would also prove his loyalty beyond just words.

So it looks like Viserion breathes a kind of blue flame. I'd guess it's some kind of energy magic, rather than frost or fire. In fact, I'm having a very specific flashback to my WoW-playing days — there was a spell called Frostfire Bolt. It didn't deal Frost damage or Fire damage; it dealt Frostfire damage. Simply its own thing.

And just watch, someone will complain that the ice dragons GRRM wrote about breathed freezing cold, not any kind of fire. But those were living ice dragons, not undead Targaryen dragons.

[Warning: fan-bashing ahead]

The mindless orgy of nitpicking that's spanned the last seven days seems even more dumb and petty now. And I bet a lot of those fans and critics were watching the first half of this episode with their arms crossed, determined to sabotage their own experience.

This urge to have all the explanations now is a bizarre approach to fiction that I still don't understand. People absolutely freaked out over things that they'd have the answers to just a week later. Patience is hard.

I'm not going to say I'm not guilty of this. I hated the Sansa rape storyline with every fiber of my being, and I was determined to believe that any characterization to come from that would be ill-gotten gains that I would not accept. And yet... it paid off. Sansa learned and was hardened and got revenge. Her character would not be in the same place without that suffering. Not fast enough, at least. In the real world, trauma usually does not make you a stronger and more powerful person, but against all odds they've successfully done that with Sansa. I have to admit I was wrong. You might say I couldn't have known at the time, because the payoff seemed catastrophically unlikely and would not arrive for a very long time. TLDR: it's kind of worth it to keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on August 28, 2017, 01:41:15 AM
I laughed out loud at the Greyjoy sailor dude kneeing Theon in the groin to no effect, and I'm still not sure if that moment was brilliant or moronic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 28, 2017, 01:53:27 AM
Possibly the best episode of the season.

This season was kinda silly and weak in some parts but it was endlessly entertaining and finally brought everything together for the endgame.

So many good things about this episode.

- All three Lannisters were at the top of their game. In the past, the show was often at its best when it was Lannisters talking. Good to see we have them top tier Lannister scenes again. Lena Headey was so good in the Tyrion and Jaime scenes, I became interested in Cersei again- even if her plans are crazier than ever.
- Overall, just a strong character driven episode loaded with great little interactions.
- Great to see Jaime growing a backbone. I was so scared The Mountain was going to do something. But finally, finally, Jaime, thank god.
- Snow falling on KL was stunning
- The Hound and Brienne talking was a great moment.
- I totally knew that Qyburn was going to hop out of his seat out of curiosity, but it was still very fun to see.
- They cleared up Bran's powers and now we know the extent of his abilities- past and present but only if he's actively looking for it.
- I was so happy to see see Theon stand and being to prove himself again. This time, I'm convinced he'll become the man he was always meant to be. In a way, this was the best thing about the episode. Seeing him stumble into the sand and splash his face with seawater. So bloody good. Alfie Allen has always been the best of the younger GOT actors.
- I was absolutely thrilled to see the Winterfell storyline being resolved so entertainingly after being awful un-enjoyable viewing for most of the season.
- I'm kind of concerned what Tyrion told Cersei to 'convince' her to join and why he was so concerned looking while skulking around on the boat.
- Silly Rhaegar, naming two of his sons Aegon. Also, wow, Rhaegar. Good casting too, him and Viserys look very similar. Rhaegar's still a douchehole.
- I'm hoping Tormund and Beric are doing okay. Last scene was hectic.

I'll stop there because I'll be listing things for almost every scene.

I laughed out loud at the Greyjoy sailor dude kneeing Theon in the groin to no effect, and I'm still not sure if that moment was brilliant or moronic.

It was pretty damn goofy but I liked that Theon started to grin. I can't remember the last time I saw him with an expression like that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on August 28, 2017, 09:06:24 AM
I like-like GOT, not love-love. The past couple of seasons, although they undoubtedly had their moments, never really lived up to the thrill of the first two or three seasons for me. Also, I'm not a GOT obsessive in that I will scour the internet for theories, and I've not read the books, so I'll freely admit I've maybe missed out on a lot of the details that super fans are aware of. Basically, I've depended on you guys to fill in the gaps for me. So thanks for that.

I've just caught up with the entirely of this season over the past week. Not sure 6 eps in a week technically counts as bingewatching, but that's what I've done. All in time to read the past several pages of this thread ahead of watching last night's finale (after I watched TP, of course.) In the context of the type of viewer I am of this show, I've really enjoyed this season. We're in the third act now, and things are picking up. We're back at the levels of action and excitement of the show's early seasons, before it became bloated, meandering, and slow. I'm all in favor of this faster pacing, and seeing different groups of characters finally come together for the first time - or reunite - has been a joy. And it's happened almost every episode. The weakest parts have been the Winterfell story (although worth enduring to finally see the end of Littlefinger) and Jamie's fakeout death. Although I do think they could have painted Littlerfinger as a bit more of a Big Villain throughout the season. But that's a nitpick. It was still a great scene and so nice to see him gone.

Also just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of what's already been said by others here over the course of the season. This show has become (genuinely or artificially?) a zeitgeisty show that the gods of social media demand is watched on a weekly basis, lest ye be spoiled. I've pretty much skimmed past anything GOT-related, and made it through the past 7 weeks completely unspoiled. But a lot of what I've noticed does seem to be hype-y for click's sake. People who write stuff for web clicks have been told that GOT gets clicks, so there's apparently a lot of crap out there. Either OMG! hyperbole or terminally unsatisfied nitpicking. I'm not interested in either. Thanks to all of you for calling that out too. It's entertainment for me, and this season has delivered on the promise of the setup for sure.

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for a prediction on how this all turns out... Cerei becomes increasingly irrelevant, a great ironic ending would be King's Landing overtaken by winter, she dies clinging on to the iron throne, but with none of the power it once represented. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany rule as leaders of the people from Winterfell, the new capital of what survives of Westeros. Because the North is the only place that has been preparing for the coming winter. Of course, I'm also anticipating massive fallout from Dany once Jon's true parentage is revealed - without proof, she'll assume it's a plot to usurp her claim to the throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Kal on August 28, 2017, 10:36:47 AM

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for a prediction on how this all turns out... Cerei becomes increasingly irrelevant, a great ironic ending would be King's Landing overtaken by winter, she dies clinging on to the iron throne, but with none of the power it once represented. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany rule as leaders of the people from Winterfell, the new capital of what survives of Westeros. Because the North is the only place that has been preparing for the coming winter. Of course, I'm also anticipating massive fallout from Dany once Jon's true parentage is revealed - without proof, she'll assume it's a plot to usurp her claim to the throne.


I like the idea of Cersei just becoming irrelevant as opposed to suffering a horrible death. It would be much worse for her to be alive and powerless than to die. Reminds me of Uncle Junior in The Sopranos, which at one point was Tony's biggest thread only to end up old, sick, sad and alone.

Also, the idea of winter coming full force and destroying Kings Landing is possible. Remember Daenerys' dream at the end of season 2 when she sees the Iron Throne covered in snow and the palace with no roof, etc? Maybe that is a premonition.

That wall coming down though. I wish the old men at the Citadel could see that happening and shit their pants. I can't help but think it would have been so much cooler if they skipped that ending in the previous episode, and we suddenly unexpectedly saw Viserion show up at the end of the finale instead. That would have been insane.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 28, 2017, 11:46:37 AM
But a lot of what I've noticed does seem to be hype-y for click's sake. People who write stuff for web clicks have been told that GOT gets clicks, so there's apparently a lot of crap out there. Either OMG! hyperbole or terminally unsatisfied nitpicking.

The worst one I read last week (which I can't find right now) argued that the rift between Sansa and Arya was a failure of creativity resulting from having no women in the writer's room. Because the 2-3 dudes writing this show simply can't understand a sister relationship. It was a really bad take that of course turned out to be completely wrong.

Then there was this, which seems demonstrably false and is also a super bizarre argument to make, but it's actually just dumb clickbait so who cares I guess:

Jon and Dany Have More Chemistry in This Photo Than In All of Game of Thrones (http://themuse.jezebel.com/jon-and-dany-have-more-chemistry-in-this-photo-than-in-1798406989)

I also just skimmed a couple articles that ranted about all the unresolved things in the show, and how this was destroying the season, such a problem, etc. (one example here (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/08/14/this-is-what-worries-me-about-last-nights-episode-of-game-of-thrones/#2168f5f32384)). How profoundly stupid is it to complain about unresolved plots in the penultimate episode of a season? That's when we should have the MOST unresolved things so they can be resolved in the FINALE! Jesus Christ. Anyway it's fun to just go down their lists and check things off... resolved, wrong, resolved, resolved, wrong.

Put simply, it's easy to nitpick, but it's quite hard (and not provocative enough) to describe how and why something is amazing. "Game of Thrones is actually great"... I don't see that headline generating many clicks.

Edit: LOL, when you search for "Game of Thrones is actually great" (without quotes) these are results you get on the first page:

- Is Game of Thrones really that good?
- Is Game of Thrones actually good? We chew it over
- Ask Alan: How Good Is 'Game Of Thrones' Really?
- 9 Reasons 'Game of Thrones' Is Actually a Terrible Show
- Why Game Of Thrones Is Actually A Terrible Show
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Drenk on August 28, 2017, 01:22:50 PM
"I want to close here, however, with a thought that’s not meant to get Benioff and Weiss off the hook, even though it’s probably going to sound that way: Maybe it’s the White Walker threat itself that is killing the show, and perhaps it would’ve killed it eventually anyhow, whether the showrunners had fresh Martin novels to draw on or not. The story of a kingdom warring against itself while a greater threat gathers is one that’s been building steam since season one, and that’s Martin’s idea, not Weiss and Benioff’s. It’s a great story with a touch of a parable to it, and it seems more relevant now than ever before (see the news for details). But no matter how it plays out, the end result will be to retrospectively cast all of the feuds and double-crosses, tragedies and victories that came before as comparatively trivial. “None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat” is a good idea on paper, but given how much emotion we’ve invested in the stories of all these characters over the course of seven seasons, and how deeply invested we are in the humanity of even the worst of them, that might not be a sentiment that anyone, not even the hardiest of die-hard Thrones fans, wants to hear. It could be that no matter how we get to that ending, and whether it’s a happy one, a tragic-ironic one, or something in between, it will still disappoint us on some level, because it will constitute a negation of our interest as viewers, and even the most vocal boosters of Thrones know that the series is probably not equipped to make the sorts of nuanced philosophical statements required to satisfactorily deal with something like that."

http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html?utm_campaign=vulture&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 28, 2017, 02:45:15 PM
I like where the pieces ended up for sure and there were some great moments. Most moments mentioned here I did love, but the only part that got my blood pumping was the Cersei/Jaime scene.

It's just sloppier now. I forgive the show and I'm fine with it. I still love watching it and will be VERY excited when it comes back on. It's just not as careful as it once was.

The Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger stuff just fucking sucked. It would have been worth being so frustrated and bored by that story-line if Littlefinger's death had been more satisfying. The turn was telegraphed a little too heavily for that moment to be all that exciting. I was just relieved to have been done with it.

And how much cooler would it have been if we hadn't seen the dragon being pulled out of the water at the end of the last episode? We see the army of the dead marching toward the wall, then we see a dragon coming and oh fuck, who's riding that dragon? Oh NO!

Anyway, I really do still love this show. I just think this season was sloppy.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 28, 2017, 03:27:28 PM
"But no matter how it plays out, the end result will be to retrospectively cast all of the feuds and double-crosses, tragedies and victories that came before as comparatively trivial. 'None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat' is a good idea on paper, but given how much emotion we’ve invested in the stories of all these characters over the course of seven seasons, and how deeply invested we are in the humanity of even the worst of them, that might not be a sentiment that anyone, not even the hardiest of die-hard Thrones fans, wants to hear."

Wow. I think he's completely wrong there. Like he's missing the point.

"None of this stuff matters compared to this new threat" is a rhetorical technique used by characters within the show to convince other characters. In truth, the feuds and double-crosses and alliances matter greatly. Those events have brought things exactly where they are right now. Those very alliances are currently dictating exactly how the white walkers are fought, including humanity's chance of winning this fight! Why is Daenerys going to help fight the white walkers? Because she came to Westeros to conquer it, and because she allied with Jon. That's also why the Night King has his own dragon and was able to bring down the wall. How could you describe that as "comparatively trivial"??? That doesn't make any sense, because these things are so obviously connected.

I have never seen Matt Zoller Seitz make such a dumb argument. What is this show doing to our beloved critics?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on August 28, 2017, 04:02:51 PM
Loved the episode.

I know I've said it before, but I think this is the best episode of the series. At the very least, it stands side by side with The Winds of Winter. It was the same kind of surreal viewing experience — in some moments I couldn't believe what I was seeing because my dreams were being so thoroughly fulfilled.

What makes this episode so great? It's deeply and relentlessly character-driven. Almost in a literal sense. You feel every character's motivation propelling this thing along. Any character beat that wasn't pitch-perfect was later revealed to be part of a twist, making it more perfect. This was truly a magnificent thing to watch.

I think this is my proudest moment of GoT observation; I didn't hear it echoed anywhere, but I was 100% convinced:

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

When Sansa turned her head and said "Littlefinger," I literally started clapping and continued to do so at various points throughout that spectacular scene. It was the most paying payoff of all payoffs. I still can't believe it actually happened. God bless this show.

Good prediction. I was wrong you guys were right, Bran intervened at the right time, and Sansa and Arya fooled LF (and me), probably the only way he could be fooled by actually fighting or pretending to do so, and as you said that moment when Sansa says his name in the great hall was so amazing, I wanted for a long time to see the unmasking of all the shit Little Finger has caused, the conspiracy to murder Jon Arryn, how he betrayed Ned (YES!!!), the dagger, everything. A really emotional moment.

Bran was great too, and that thing he did when Sam tells him about Jon's true birth, he really can see everything but he needs further information to trace the past, like knowing that bit of info about the High Septon's diary and realizing not only Jon's birth but that Robert's rebellion was nothing but a lie. Now, if Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna, did she died giving birth or something else? You guys must remember how bloody she was when Bran saw her with her father.
I'm glad he saw the NK riding the dragon, now Dany can't hesitate about this war.


- All three Lannisters were at the top of their game. In the past, the show was often at its best when it was Lannisters talking. Good to see we have them top tier Lannister scenes again. Lena Headey was so good in the Tyrion and Jaime scenes, I became interested in Cersei again- even if her plans are crazier than ever.
- Overall, just a strong character driven episode loaded with great little interactions.
- Great to see Jaime growing a backbone. I was so scared The Mountain was going to do something. But finally, finally, Jaime, thank god.

Agree, I have missed those long conversations and we got a few in this episode, I really thought too Cersei was gonna kill Jaime, but she couldn't and now he will go north to tell everyone she won't keep her promise to help them.

She will end up alone and will lose everything, even that baby probably.

I wanted Qyburn to keep the wight "alive" for his experiments.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on August 28, 2017, 10:00:10 PM
I just watched the episode again and I think Cersei might stay on the throne until the end after all. But it will be irrelevant and won't really matter. First of all there is the thing Jon says about not understanding why people would like to live in Kings Landing instead of the north for example. This could be foreshadowing that a lot of them will move up north when the winter is there real. The north is more prepared for winter and staying in Kings Landing might not be a possibility. I also don't think they will be very happy when they realize their queen choice to not help Jon/Dany in the war against the NK and decide they want to follow them instead.

It would be a poetic ending and fit her character. She will sit on the throne until the very end because of her stubbornness and it will be the end of her. The wheel will be broken, the lone wolf dies and the pack survives, etc.

I liked the episode. People are saying it was predictably but I thought it was fairly  unpredictably how they focused on the character instead of big battles or deaths. That has been standard for the last couple of seasons anyway. It was nice to see something different.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 01:06:43 AM
Some are saying the finale proved the "capture a wight" plan was dumb, because Cersei isn't on board after all. But she wasn't the only audience. Jaime is emphatically on board and seems to be defecting. Which could lead to Bronn leaving. And others. This meeting may have other effects too that we've only begun to understand.

It forced Jon to publicly announce his loyalty to Daenerys, which led to other things, which might lead to her becoming pregnant with an heir.

It's like I've been saying. One event leads to another which leads to something else, etc. etc. These novelistic setups require patience to pay off.

Here's a random fun thing I noticed. Jon says he cannot serve two queens, and Randyll Tarly said basically the same thing. In retrospect that feels like foreshadowing. And I really like that symmetry. One of them chose wisely.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 30, 2017, 03:02:35 AM
I still think it's dumb. I understand that this resulted in the most important outcome- Dany joining forces with Jon to kill NK and also furthering their relationship as now they know each other to be good, selfless people. But the fact we had to get Jon leading a ranging mission (alongside Jorah Mormont, Sandor Clegane etc...)  beyond the wall to capture a wight while he's KitN to get that point is silly.
The payoff is logical and valuable in terms of plot (and once again sets Jaime's arc in motion again, yay) but the setup is absurd.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 07:53:36 AM
I guess I would agree it's a dumb plan in-universe, but not any more than a handful of other plans they've succeeded with. Battle of the Bastards was a dumb plan, and they had no hope of winning without the Sansa Ex Machina. Maybe Jon is buying his own hype in a way. Maybe he's starting to believe in fate.

As for Jon putting himself in the middle of the fight, it seems to me that this happens all the time. Why is that silly? Jon is the best at fighting the dead. Dany is the best at riding dragons. Euron is the best at killing dudes on boats. Even Tyrion fought during Battle of the Blackwater, and attempted to fight before that. Robert fought in Robert's Rebellion. Jaime and Rob fought their own battles too.

In that context, it seems borderline reasonable that you could go beyond the wall and find a wight straggler somewhere, as they have before, and not instantly encounter the whole army. They might have been able to do that with Bran raven-scouting for them.

Presenting a wight to Cersei is the part that seemed potentially silly to me, but I'm so impressed by how that was executed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 10:09:02 AM
Just rewatched the last three episodes. I think I have less issues with it now.
I like Littlefinger's end. Arya uses the dagger and it's so cruel, quick, and cold. The only thing I don't like are the scenes where Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, supposedly stringing him along. It's very unbelievable that she could fake the surprise, concern, etc... so well. It's because Sophie Turner is playing it like it's genuine and that's intentional, because the audience is being lied to. That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.

Speaking of being lied to, what's up with Cersei and Tyrion? If we are going to believe Cersei's big fake-out plan, she walks away from it knowing that Tyrion would come talk to her. This is when we get half a conversation. What happened in the second half of that conversation? Watching it back-to-back with the previous episode made me aware that Tyrion JUST expressed concerns with Danny about her not have a successor and the last piece of his exchange with Cersei, Tyrion "finds out" (Cersei seemed pretty deliberate about touching her stomach) that she is pregnant. What did Tyrion agree to that we didn't see? It made the moment where he is looking concernedly at the Dong of Ice in fire fuck room come of differently to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 11:18:21 AM
That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.

But I think enough clues were there even two weeks ago. They played fair.

What happened in the second half of that conversation? Watching it back-to-back with the previous episode made me aware that Tyrion JUST expressed concerns with Danny about her not have a successor and the last piece of his exchange with Cersei, Tyrion "finds out" (Cersei seemed pretty deliberate about touching her stomach) that she is pregnant. What did Tyrion agree to that we didn't see? It made the moment where he is looking concernedly at the Dong of Ice in fire fuck room come of differently to me.

I believe he did made some kind of deal with her. Perhaps simply a promise to let her child live. I could even see Tyrion going behind Dany's back to make that happen. I don't know how that would actually play out, though, because surely Cersei won't be alive in 8-9 months.

Tyrion brooding in the boat is very interesting. What's your take on that? I didn't know what to think at first. I've come to think he's mostly worried about how this complicates things and compromises their judgment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: RegularKarate on August 30, 2017, 11:42:01 AM
Tyrion brooding in the boat is very interesting. What's your take on that? I didn't know what to think at first. I've come to think he's mostly worried about how this complicates things and compromises their judgment.

At first, I was like "Aw, he's just another Jora in love with Dany" then I decided it was more what you're talking about (especially because the director said as much, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what it is). Now I think there might be something more complicated that will play out next year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 30, 2017, 05:24:14 PM
Oh my. Here's an article offering actual deep analysis of this season. Highly recommended.

Game of Thrones season 7: each character's strategy, ranked by political science (https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/28/16205048/game-of-thrones-season-7-cersei-daenerys-jon-snow)

Spoiler alert: Tyrion is not #1.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 30, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
The only thing I don't like are the scenes where Sansa is talking to Littlefinger, supposedly stringing him along. It's very unbelievable that she could fake the surprise, concern, etc... so well. It's because Sophie Turner is playing it like it's genuine and that's intentional, because the audience is being lied to. That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.
That sort of thing is tricky, but it's always disapointing when we are just being lied to instead of being misdirected.
But I think enough clues were there even two weeks ago. They played fair.

At this stage, I'm not entirely sure what the writers were even going for.
Quote
It’s clear after Sansa turns the tables on Littlefinger that she has had some sort of conversation with Bran, but we don’t get to see it. When did it take place?
We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran’s door and says, “I need your help,” or something along those lines. So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, “Oh, s—.”
http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-finale-cut-scene-1202541941/

Ultimately it was a pretty rubbish storyline anyway.

Regarding Tyrion, I'm pretty sure he's upset because he doesn't want any distractions from their initial shared goal (Dany's dream is maybe the only thing that Tyrion thinks is worth living for), he knows how badly things can end when love interferes with duty. There's the theory that he made a deal with Cersei, which is a scary thought and could cause some serious drama down the line. There's the idea that he's upset because he thinks an heir (from Jon and Dany) will ruin the chances of breaking the wheel- though at this stage he should still be thinking Dany is infertile. So because of that I'm sticking with love clouding judgement, confused priorities and other complications.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 12:14:37 AM
At this stage, I'm not entirely sure what the writers were even going for.

Given what Arya is now, I think it was essential that Sansa earned her trust the hard way. They were never going to have an easy reunion. Now this Stark unit is actually stronger than ever. Plus, Littlefinger had to have one last scheme — a desperate and audacious one as he runs out of options. I thought it was very well done.

Regarding Tyrion, I'm pretty sure he's upset because he doesn't want any distractions from their initial shared goal (Dany's dream is maybe the only thing that Tyrion thinks is worth living for), he knows how badly things can end when love interferes with duty. There's the theory that he made a deal with Cersei, which is a scary thought and could cause some serious drama down the line. There's the idea that he's upset because he thinks an heir (from Jon and Dany) will ruin the chances of breaking the wheel- though at this stage he should still be thinking Dany is infertile. So because of that I'm sticking with love clouding judgement, confused priorities and other complications.

Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

From my POV, he should be sort of happy that the Targaryen-Stark alliance looks significantly more solid now.

He does have reason to worry, though. Dany and Jon will probably end up making strategic decisions based on a desire to protect each other or even simply to be together. Just as Dany wanted to travel with Jon despite the risks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Lottery on August 31, 2017, 12:52:37 AM
Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

I'm a bit puzzled by Tyrion these days. He's been a pretty crummy/often ignored hand. He was useless last season, he has a bunch of great scenes this season but generally speaking how valuable has he really been recently? He vouched for Jon, convinced Dany to let Jon mine the dragonglass, suggested the stupid wight plan (and then told Dany to not save Jon and friends), negotiated the dragonpit meeting and then the Cersei agreement (which she quickly betrayed). So, strangely enough he's been there to assist with some of the most important decisions in the season but he's probably failed and been ignored just as much. Exploring his frustrations as the hand of someone he truly admires would be a cool idea (and the boat skulking scene would add to that). Like Varys and LF, perhaps the writers don't really know what to do him anymore in terms of being an active character, I'd hate to see him exist as an accessory to the Dany/Jon story. The theorised secret deal with Cersei would be shocking and disheartening but would demonstrate a welcome degree of independence.

Now that we've finished the season, I am even more eager in seeing how GRRM will navigate these plots- the decisions Tyrion makes in particular but that said, considering that how far the book/show are diverging, we'll probably never get to see how he would do it. I hope something like the Dragonpit meeting (as in the prominent characters come together [in a thematically significant location] to recognise the real threat) will turn up in the book. It has to, right?

As an aside, the Jaime on horseback/putting on glove/snow falling might be my favourite part of the season. The scene had time to breathe. I really liked that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 04:13:48 PM
GoT press malpractice continues. I'm listening to The Ringer's podcast (Binge Mode: Game of Thrones). It's considered one of the most expert-driven podcasts, and they usually offer some pretty good analysis (though I skipped E6). Anyway, they were complaining about Ghost not appearing:


"Did we literally not see him this season?"
"We did not see Ghost this season."
"This is fucking crazy... it's pathetic..."
"To have an entire season of Game of Thrones without a dire wolf appearance, is..."
"It's shameful, honestly."
"Malpractice."
"It's honestly shameful."
"It's malpractice. Oh man. That fuckin' pisses me off."
"Yeah! It's crazy!"
"I'm getting heated! God damnit..."


Woops, they forgot that we saw Nymeria and her pack. They were a centerpiece of Episode 2.

I would have liked to see Ghost as well, but apparently after the Nymeria scene, for budget/time reasons they had to choose between the zombie polar bear and Ghost. I think they made an okay decision. Did we really want to see Ghost imperiled along with the Magnificent Seven? Did we want to see him curled up at the foot of the bed, barking in approval while Jon and Dany went at it?

Also in this podcast they suggested it would have been nice for the show to explain the type of magic that Undead Viserion was spewing. Umm... really? Are you sure you want that? Do you want one of the guards on the wall to pause and say: "Oh, look! It's not fire, but it's not ice — it must be some new kind of dark energy! And look, it's taking down the wall! Run!"

It's supremely disappointing that when GoT trusts the audience, fans will snipe back at the show all the more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 31, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
And yet, later in that same podcast, they gave me chills describing why the Littlefinger/Sansa/Arya scenes were so great. There's so much character-driven loaded meaning at every turn.

Here's something that didn't occur to me, which they pointed out. Sansa passed the sentence, but Arya carried it out — despite Ned saying that he who passes the sentence must swing the sword. But rather than this being a transgression, it emphasizes that Sansa and Arya are becoming a unit. Sansa is the mind, and Arya is the blade. That could have really exciting implications next season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on September 01, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
See the Final Beautiful Death From Season 7

“The Dragon and the Wolf” was a super-sized episode and it packed an emotional punch for those rooting for the Stark children, as well as fans of master-manipulator Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish. Artist Robert Ball shares how he approached making the final Beautiful Death piece for Season 7.

Ball refers to the Season 7 finale as, “One of the classic Game of Thrones episodes. It took me a while to come back down to earth afterwards. And that surprise death! Petyr Baelish was one of my favorite characters, and if I were a betting man, my money would have been on him sitting on the Iron Throne at the saga's end — which is why I never gamble, and why I was doubly upset when his schemes finally caught up with him.”

“When I saw Littlefinger fall to the Great Hall floor, my immediate idea was to use the floor’s flagstones to make a web with Baelish finally caught in the lies that have spun out of control,” Ball says. “Then I decided, as it's the last poster of the season, to cram in as much symbolism as the image could take.”

Referencing the final drawing, Ball explains, “I've drawn Petyr a mockingbird, his sigil, with his throat cut by the Catspaw blade. The shadow of his wings form three wolves: the Stark children. [The wolf representing] Bran has white eyes, to show his power to warg. Above the mockingbird, the floor forms his web of lies, and below there is a crescent moon — a grisly version of the House Arryn sigil.”

“Baelish is multi-coloured to represent his ability to insinuate his way into any house,” continues Ball. “The blood from his throat forms a ladder: a nod to his famous quote, 'Chaos is a ladder,' which Bran repeated back to him [in Episode 4]. Sansa’s note, which ultimately helped the Stark children trap him, is in his claws, and finally, there is blood on his heart. I believe he genuinely loved Catelyn Stark, maybe even Sansa, and this is a nod to that poisonous love.”

Ball’s final thought about the season ending? “Bring on Season 8!”

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/see-the-final-beautiful-death-from-season-7
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 05, 2017, 07:01:07 PM
Tyrion's boatsex reaction solved:

Title of this episode is "The Dragon and the Wolf." Much like "The Children," this refers to multiple things. In this case, they're obviously drawing a comparison between Rhaegar/Lyanna and Daenerys/Jon.

As a student of history, Tyrion knows that Rhaegar & Lyanna falling in love was an epic disaster for themselves and the realm. It was a selfish and reckless act that had an incalculable cost, and they were torn apart anyway.

This is what I said before:

Speaking in-universe here, it's funny that Tyrion would be on a high-horse about judgment being clouded. As if he's some kind of standard of good decision-making.

From my POV, he should be sort of happy that the Targaryen-Stark alliance looks significantly more solid now.

He does have reason to worry, though. Dany and Jon will probably end up making strategic decisions based on a desire to protect each other or even simply to be together. Just as Dany wanted to travel with Jon despite the risks.

But objectively speaking, the risks far outweigh any benefit there is to be gained from "strengthening the alliance." Emotionally I want to believe it, but that's not a rational viewpoint. Tyrion is trying to be a rational thinker, because after his many failures that's probably all he has left.

And yet, he might be proven wrong once again. I would like to see a Dany/Jon union actually strengthen the realm, yet another iteration of breaking the cycle and correcting the mistakes of their ancestors. Is that wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on September 09, 2017, 03:10:52 PM
New theory: Jaime is known as the King-Slayer because he killed the mad king. But what if it's also prophetic? What if he kills the Night King? Specifically, Bran - who Jaime paralyzed by pushing him through the window in the show's very first episode - wargs into Jaime to deliver the fatal blow.

Even crazier theory: Bran has to warg into Jaime to kill the Night King because it's certain death and even Jamie isn't that crazy. So Jaime kills the Night King but is summarily killed himself and becomes a solider of the army of the death. He then marches with them to Westeros, where he fulfills that other theory about him being the one who kills Cersei.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 09, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
I think the wargee has to be of less than full human intellect, like an animal or Hodor. It's possible that Jaime gets hurt enough in battle that he's wargable. But narratively, I feel like it's inevitable that Jon delivers the fatal blow to the Night King. If they upend that expectation, it'll have to be sufficiently interesting.

Whatever the case, Jaime is one of the characters I'm most curious about right now, since he does seem to be joining the coalition. Obviously there's going to be some initial conflict and worry that he's an infiltrator, but then Tyrion and Brienne vouch for Jaime's honor, and Jon calms everyone down because it's humanity vs. the dead. Still, I can't imagine the tension ever really going away.

Side note. The consensus seems to be that either Jon or Dany will survive the series, but not both. I strongly feel like Daenerys will survive. She is clearly going to get pregnant, and I kind of doubt GoT is going to kill two pregnant principal characters in one season. Jon is far more likely to put himself in a martyrdom type of situation. The show has also done a lot of work to establish that he won't be brought back again.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on September 29, 2017, 10:23:59 AM
Game of Thrones’ Season 8 Directors List Hints at Massive Ice Battles to Come

HBO on Tuesday announced the list of directors for the final season of Game of Thrones, and befitting that season’s abbreviated length (it’s only six episodes, though each will be longer than a typical GOT installment), the list is only four names long: David Nutter, Miguel Sapochnik, and showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. Benioff and Weiss will jointly handle the series finale; there’s no word on episode counts for Nutter and Sapochnik. Nutter has directed six GOT episodes, including “The Rains of Castamere,” while Sapochnik famously helmed both “Hardhome” and “The Battle of the Bastards.” Add Sapochnik’s presence to the news from Variety that each episode in the final season is expected to cost $15 million, and one thing is clear: There are going to be some major battles coming in Thrones’ final season. (Good news for fans of the iconic ice dragon, who will likely get plenty more chances to cause drama.) No premiere date has yet been announced for season eight, which likely means that Jon Snow and his aunt are going to be spending a long time on that boat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: KJ on September 29, 2017, 11:00:47 AM
Because of Sapochnik? Wasn't that obvious already?

Nice list, tho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 29, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
Thank God Sapochnik is back. We are in capable hands. D&D are directing episodes, though? Interesting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on September 29, 2017, 05:02:19 PM
Apparently they've each directed one episode previously -- Benioff directed S03E03, Weiss directed S04E01 -- but have no other directorial experience beyond a short film Benioff made in 2006. Seeing no Michelle MacLaren or Neil Marshall on the list is sad, but Nutter and Sapochnik definitely know what they're doing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Fernando on December 07, 2017, 10:52:08 AM
Variety Interview.

‘Game of Thrones’: Sophie Turner Talks Pivotal Scenes, Season 8 Premiere

What was your favorite scene from last season?
It was probably the moment that you realized that Sansa was going to kill Littlefinger [Aidan Gillen] and does kill him, and when you realize that Sansa and Arya Maisie [Maisie Williams] had been scheming behind Litlefinger’s back, which is a pretty impressive thing to do for two young girls against a master manipulator. It was just a really powerful moment for her, to have used up all of her master’s lessons and finally discard him. The student becomes the master now.

That scene was your last with Aidan Gillen, who you’ve worked with a lot over the series. What was it like to be working with him for the last time.
It was really hard, because out of all the people I’ve worked with on the show, he has been the one who was consistent throughout, from season one to season seven. He has been my “Game of Thrones” experience. He’s been the backbone of it for me. So to say goodbye to him was pretty hard, especially because life imitated art in a way, because he was also my mentor. I learned so many lessons just by watching him act. It was this weird parallel, and an emotional thing for everyone.

What has it been like for you to work through your formative years as an actor on a show like this with so many very good veteran actors?
My standards have definitely been raised. It’s a blessing and a curse, “Game of Thrones” being my first job and working with such incredible scripts and such incredible veteran actors, and working with the best crew. It makes you a bit of a snob, I think. And because it was my first job, the actors on “Game of Thrones” are the people I learned to act from. I learned to act watching Lena [Headey] and Peter [Dinklage] and Maisie and Kit [Harrington] and all of these different people. I put them all on such pedestals. The thought of not working with them is almost excruciating to me. They’ve been my growing up.

How will Sansa fare next season without Littlefinger in her ear?
It’s going to be tricky for her, because at the end of last season, she felt that she had everything set up. She had her family back together. They were in control of the North again. This season, there’s a new threat, and all of a sudden she finds herself somewhat back in the deep end. And without Littlefinger, it’s a test for her of whether she can get through it. It’s a big challenge for her, without this master manipulator having her back. This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight.

Is that because this season she faces less a political threat and more an existential, zombie sort of threat?
Well, I don’t know. We’ll have to see.

Where are you at in production on season eight?
We started in October, so we’re maybe like a tenth of the way through. [Laughs.] No, no, we’ve got six or seven months left.

Is there a consciousness on set of the fact that this is the last season?
There definitely is. When we all had the read-through for the final season, it was very, very emotional. For the first time in “Thrones” history, we had everyone there. All of the Americans wanted to come over. Every single cast member was pretty much there. We’re all kind of feeling the end of it coming. We’re all staying in town a little longer, going out for more meals, trying to get together more. We’re all trying not to take it for granted any more.

You’ve been able to do the “X-Men” movies. Now that you won’t have “Thrones” anymore, what else do you want to do?
I kind of want to do everything. I feel this sense that everything  is over “Game of Thrones”-wise. I have nothing to lose right now, because I don’t have “Game of Thrones” anymore. I’m kind of born again, because I’m at a different stage of my career now — not necessarily at a higher level, I just find myself at a different version of my career. So I’m going to try my hand at everything.

Are you excited for next year, with “X-Men: Dark Phoenix” and season eight of “Game of Thrones” set to premiere?
Yeah, I’m really excited. “Game of Thrones” comes out in 2019. “Dark Phoenix” is in November. Then I have a couple indie movies coming out. I’m a producer on my next movie [“Girl Who Fell From the Sky”]. So I’m really excited about the future.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: BreannaWatson on December 10, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
My husband watches it! But I think it's boring! Anyway, thanks for sharing your thought, guys!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: polkablues on December 10, 2017, 05:31:51 PM
You're... welcome?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones (spoilers)
Post by: Sleepless on December 11, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
That was a ride.

My husband watches it!

(http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/36300000/Ralph-Wiggum-image-ralph-wiggum-36389348-420-315.gif)
Husband? And name is Breanna? Cool, we have a female Xixaxer again!

But I think it's boring!

(http://johngushue.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/ralph_wiggum.gif)
K... What polkablues said

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thought, guys!

(https://i.imgflip.com/1o8i4d.jpg)

The fuck the point of that? You a Russian troll?