What happened to this wonderful genre?
PTA once expressed that he would like to do a western.
Who would be the best man/woman for the job? The job to resurrect the western genre? And who would be the star? Clint's too old.
Good thread idea. Sparks of conversation about this genre has been appearing here and there lately with not much follow through by anyone on bring a comprehensive discussion about it.
I think the genre is dead. For some people, Open Range marked a return of the western in quality. It was a well made movie, but it just recreated a very classical movie. There is no relevance in the western anymore. With every western, there is a retreat to basic themes, consequences and solutions. The idea of solution (to my problems) is finding a way to actually get the western to speak for something unique in our times. Dramas do update their stories. Neil LaBute's In the Company of Men is a very strong and unique movie for something of our times told with filmmaking to specifically show that uniqueness. The Western is like an old parable where you know all the details and you hope it works to fulfil a nostalgic need.
In ways, I think The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was the death nail to the genre. It showed that the genre had milked itself clean of every character and plot trait that was going to be explored and so this film came along and essentially did a riff on the entire genre finally because it just could. Even by the late 60s, it seems everything that was said about the genre had already been said. Pulp Fiction, I think, had similiar consequences for the gangster film.
Quote from: The Gold TrumpetGood thread idea. Sparks of conversation about this genre has been appearing here and there lately with not much follow through by anyone on bring a comprehensive discussion about it.
I think the genre is dead. For some people, Open Range marked a return of the western in quality. It was a well made movie, but it just updated a very classical movie. There is no relevance in the western anymore. With every western, there is a retreat to basic themes, consequences and solutions. The idea of solution (to my problems) is finding a way to actually get the western to speak for something unique in our times. Dramas do update their stories. Neil LaBute's In the Company of Men is a very strong and unique movie for something of our times told with filmmaking to specifically show that uniqueness. The Western is like an old parable where you know all the details and you hope it works to fulfil a nostalgic need.
In ways, I think The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was the death nail to the genre. It showed that the genre had milked itself clean of every character and plot trait that was going to be explored and so this film came along and essentially did a riff on the entire genre finally because it just could. Even by the late 60s, it seems everything that was said about the genre had already been said. Pulp Fiction, I think, had similiar consequences for the gangster film.
The epic roman genre was resurrected with Gladiator...like it or not but it was one hell of a comeback.
You may be right, the character's and everything we know as western have been milked out. It wouldn't be a western without the revolvers, hats and horses. And also, I don't think it would be good to set a western in contemporary Los Angeles or whatever.
I think the Coens would make a great Western.
I'm not the sensemaker on this site. That's for sure.
i think i agree with GT as far as the new westerns just trying to do what was good about the old westerns. (although i think there were plenty of good westerns after TGTBATU, i loved Tombstone and Unforgiven are probably the most recent.) Open Range did feel like a story i'd heard before. Raimi's The Quick And The Dead was a total homage to spaghetti westerns. i love westerns and we do need someone to come along and bring something new to the table to revive them. maybe Ridley Scott?
I have a feeling that Vol 2 of Kill Bill will help resurect westerns. My dad used to always watch Westerns and I hated them. Lately, most of my rentals have been westerns. The genre may be dead but I think it is b/c of economic purposes. Westerns thrived for so long b/c they were so cheap to make but I don't think so anymore. There are very few places to go and film a western at and capture the needed authenticity. I haven't seen Open Range, but it has been so long since I've seen Dances with Wolves, I think that deserves a rental.
Quote from: kotteAnd who would be the star?
Buck dude, Buck!
The Vietnam War killed the Western. :(
Quote from: ShanghaiOrangeThe Vietnam War killed the Western. :(
The Vietnam War was a western.
Yeah, and we lost. :(
where's this thread going?
I shouldn't talk...I'm the expert in the area of getting threads off track :)
Quote from: ShanghaiOrangeYeah, and we lost. :(
yeah, damn indians! :cry:
.. i think marty could make a fine western.....
and billy crudup could play the lead....
and wilco could do the score....
and the runing time should be 2 hours and 47 minutes,,,,,,,
and the MPAA should give the film a R rating....
and they should give out free "10 Gallon" hats at the theatres to promote this.
and then they should make the dvd a three disk set.....
......... :2gunfire: .......
Quote from: kotteThe epic roman genre was resurrected with Gladiator...like it or not but it was one hell of a comeback.
In financial success terms, it was a comeback. It didn't add anything though to the genre.
Quote from: kotteI think the Coens would make a great Western.
Thats not a good argument to pick with me here. I'd see the Coen brothers making a very fluff attempt at a western. Part of the movie would be dramatic in the convential sense, but most of the spirit would be disbelieving in the story and just really there to pick away at the cliches of the genre. Honestly, I'd like to see David Gordon Green above all make an attempt at doing a western. With Tarantino and PTA, I'd prolly see a lot of homage to older westerns which may put the film under the category of most westerns today.
That might be true, that the Coens wouldn't add anything really...still, I'd love to see one from them.
john waters..... :wink:
What about The Way of the Gun?
"a western with cell phones"
Wasn't Tarantino going to make a western before deciding on Kill Bill? Or am I mistaken? I thought Kill Bill was supposed to be a western with Warren Beatty. Probably wrong though. I know he was going to make a war film. I don't think he would make a very good war film, but I think he could make a very fun Western. But I hope that all of his movies aren't just genre pictures, if you know what i mean. Everything can fit in a genre, but....i don't feel like finishing that sentence.
Quote from: classical gasWasn't Tarantino going to make a western before deciding on Kill Bill? Or am I mistaken? I thought Kill Bill was supposed to be a western with Warren Beatty. Probably wrong though. I know he was going to make a war film. I don't think he would make a very good war film, but I think he could make a very fun Western. But I hope that all of his movies aren't just genre pictures, if you know what i mean. Everything can fit in a genre, but....i don't feel like finishing that sentence.
He actually has three WWII scripts...don't know if he'll ever do anything with 'em.
Inglorious Bastard sounded pretty good...but but.
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanWhat about The Way of the Gun?
I don't think so. The setting is modern, but I think the purpose, past the premise, is just for extensive and very unrealistic shoot outs. A spin on some genre, likely. How do you see it?
Quote from: The Gold TrumpetThats not a good argument to pick with me here. I'd see the Coen brothers making a very fluff attempt at a western. Part of the movie would be dramatic in the convential sense, but most of the spirit would be disbelieving in the story and just really there to pick away at the cliches of the genre. Honestly, I'd like to see David Gordon Green above all make an attempt at doing a western. With Tarantino and PTA, I'd prolly see a lot of homage to older westerns which may put the film under the category of most westerns today.
David Gordon Green has already completed The Undertow, which has been alternately described as a Western and a Southern Gothic tale...probably will be a mixture of the two.
The Coen Brothers' adaptation of 'To The White Sea' would have had much of the feel of a western, except that it's set in the East (Japan, to be exact). Seeing as how the script was almost entirely silent, they would have had to take a different approach than usual (plus, it's a humor-free story). Of course, they probably won't ever get to make it.
I plan on revitalizing the genre -- or at least taking a new approach to it -- if I ever get to adapt Cormac McCarthy's The Crossing, which would be one of my dream projects.
This is a fascinating thread. I'd agree with those who say the Western is essentially spent and dead as a genre. Unforgiven might have been the final fresh twist we had, using a genre western to make modern-day statements about violence. ...
... I think the war film is still alive and well, however, and that might, for the moment, have superceded westerns and mob films as the genre in which we can tell an "old story" but still layer it with truths about the world we live in now. ... In some respects, elements of Saving Private Ryan and the superior Band of Brothers have opened the door to fresh, raw and 21st century takes on WWII films.
Where I think we really need to go with war films, however, (and it may be too soon) is the Middle East. We need these films to speak honestly about wars in the desert; wars sparked by a religious fervor that we can't even begin to comprehend; wars against terrorists and not "traditional armies"; and wars that some would say are just as dubious as the one in Vietnam. ... (Slight tangent: I was watching "Grave of the Fireflies" recently and wondering what the Iraqi version of that movie would be. Would we be moved or pushed to a higher empathy for the situation and our enemy if we saw a film about two Iraqi children who are orphaned by the U.S. bombing, get lost and forgotten in the chaos and rubble, and ultimately succumb to malnutrition? Would this be considered an unpatriotic film?)
Final word: More and more every year, I think "Three Kings" is going to be thought of as a brilliant film that was ahead of its time and helped open the door for a new subset genre about modern warfare. ("Blackhawk Down," too, I know, but while that's a more technically brilliant piece, I think "Three Kings" is a more thoughtful movie with far more resonance.)
That's all.
Quote from: GhostboyDavid Gordon Green has already completed The Undertow, which has been alternately described as a Western and a Southern Gothic tale...probably will be a mixture of the two.
That could be interesting. Everyone seems able to mix genres and styles in approach to the western these days, but I hope DGG really does dig in his story with this film.
I recently watched Dances with Wolves. Is it just me, or is this a forgotten film of the 90s? It was nominated for so many oscars and won Best Picture, yet people just remember as the film Goodfellas lost to (and I actually think it is better than Goodfellas). An incredible debut film, an incredible western, and yet no one ever talks about this. I know Costner's career has been less than spectacular since this film, but I don't think we should forget how good Dances with Wolves is. I would put it among my top Westerns and maybe top films of the 90s.
NOTE: I watched the Director's Cut.
Costner owes a HUGE debt for Kevin Reynolds on that flick. The story goes that Costner asked for help/advice on some of the bigger sequences. KR came in, helped, started directing 2nd unit, then basically directed.
Quote from: Weak2ndAct on November 14, 2005, 03:17:30 AM
Costner owes a HUGE debt for Kevin Reynolds on that flick. The story goes that Costner asked for help/advice on some of the bigger sequences. KR came in, helped, started directing 2nd unit, then basically directed.
Then Sam Fuller claims Costner owes him a lot of credit. In his auto-biography, Fuller goes into detail how much Dances With Wolves borrows from his film, Run of the Arrow. Fuller laughed though and called it a "homage". What you say, 2ndact, could be true. Its just a heavy thing to accept so easily.
On bringing back Dances With Wolves to comment, I'm happy someone is. I've always said Dances With Wolves was the superior film to Goodfellas. Costner does well to bring together the scope of John Ford to the intimacy of a personal film. In the barrage of culture cross films to be made in America in the last 20 years, (The Last Samurai, Glory) Dances With Wolves is most believable.
Also, I own the extended edition DVD. Amazing how long that film is and how it never gets boring. I watched it once planning a two period showing and got to the end so easily I was hoping for more.
Quote from: The Gold Trumpet on November 14, 2005, 03:25:50 AM
Also, I own the extended edition DVD. Amazing how long that film is and how it never gets boring. I watched it once planning a two period showing and got to the end so easily I was hoping for more.
Agreed. As I was watching it, I was trying to think of 40 minutes that could be trimmed off and I just didn't notice any fluff. I did see the Theatrical cut once, but I was very young. I think I'll go watch the 80 minute documentary on the disc now.
I was binging on Budd Boetticher's Ranown-cycle a few weeks ago (so easy, as they're all around the divine length of 80 mins). What a master of profound brevity. The emotions of his films always sneak up on you suddenly. I want to sit around a campfire and drink coffee with Randolph Scott. Not say anything.
This interview with philosopher Robert B. Pippin goes into considerable detail about the western and how they dramatize the creation of law from the wilderness, as mention in th Kehr video. He wrote a book on it too:
nice. glad to hear this. i think he holds so well too. a lot of b movie stuff lacks the pizzaz of a movie stuff, but all that matters anyway is grace. he's a fine example.
i also recommend Bullfighter and the Lady (https://www.amazon.com/Bullfighter-Lady-Blu-ray-Robert-Stack/dp/B00CZ7AKZG)