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Film Discussion => 2022 In Film => Topic started by: MacGuffin on October 27, 2010, 07:16:09 PM

Title: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: MacGuffin on October 27, 2010, 07:16:09 PM
James Cameron Set to Make Avatar 2 and 3 for Fox
Source: THR

James Cameron has committed to making two sequels to his record-breaking 3D epic "Avatar" for Fox. The movies are scheduled for release in late 2014 and 2015, which means he won't direct other features for the next three or four years.

The writer-director had conversations with Columbia about directing "Cleopatra," starring Angelina Jolie, but that possibility is off the table, meaning the studio will have to look for another director.

But Cameron has two major projects he is producing during the next few years: Guillermo del Toro's "At the Mountains of Madness" for Universal and a remake of "Fantastic Voyage" that Laeta Kalogridis is rewriting for Fox and Cameron's Lightstorm Entertainment.

For the time being, however, he will dive back into writing screenplays for more stories that take place on Pandora. His first film about that invented world and its natives' struggles for survival in the face of greedy Earth capitalists grossed $2.8 billion worldwide after it was released in December.

"We'll continue to follow the same people on the same planet," producer Jon Landau said Wednesday during Paul Kagan's 3D Media Markets conference in New York. But, he allowed, "We might go underwater."

The filmmakers plan to shoot the movies back to back with much of the same cast. Asked whether stars Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldana had signed for the sequels, Landau said, "We won't have a problem."

The ongoing "Avatar" chapters will be the CAA-repped Cameron's ninth and 10th features as a writer-director; he also made "True Lies," "The Terminator," "Aliens" and "The Abyss."

Fox also is moving forward with converted 3D rereleases of Cameron's "Titanic" and George Lucas' "Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace." Both are tentatively set for spring 2012 openings.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Reel on October 27, 2010, 09:23:13 PM
Quote from: MacGuffin on October 27, 2010, 07:16:09 PM
"We might go underwater."

that's really the only interesting route this could take. But where next, the sky?
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Pubrick on October 27, 2010, 09:55:10 PM
Quote from: Reelist on October 27, 2010, 09:23:13 PM
that's really the only interesting route this could take. But where next, the sky?

i think they've said that after going underwater they want to expand the world by exploring the neighbouring planets in their solar system, so yeah kinda the sky.

Cameron has an excellent track record of delivering sequels that are far better than the original so i'm optimistic about these films.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Alexandro on October 27, 2010, 11:02:59 PM
Quote from: MacGuffin on October 27, 2010, 07:16:09 PM

The filmmakers plan to shoot the movies back to back with much of the same cast. Asked whether stars Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldana had signed for the sequels, Landau said, "We won't have a problem. (He made Clash of the Titans and she made a film with Paul Walker. We got them by the balls."

Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Pubrick on October 27, 2010, 11:06:54 PM
i don't know about the paul walker film but Clash of the Titans was a huge box office smash.

Sam Worthington is going to be (already is) another Ewan McGregor (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11333.msg297602;topicseen#msg297602) who gets credit for doing absolutely nothing to contribute to a film's success. he just shows up. that's what he does best, so it's obvious he'd want to take every possible opportunity to tag along to a guarranteed juggernaut.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Alexandro on October 27, 2010, 11:10:57 PM
yes, but Clash is crap and everyone knows it. People went to see it and said: "well, it was crap, ok, let's move on". People went to see Avatar and came out wanting to reforest their garden. And then it became the biggest box office hit of all time, and then it won a bunch of oscars. So the pedigree level could only be maintained by these actors by doing quality stuff, awards friendly, indie whatever films. Saldaña is trying but it's hard. Worthington is another McGregor in my opinion.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: MacGuffin on September 20, 2011, 02:05:26 AM
James Cameron Eyeing 60 Frames Per Second for 'Avatar' Sequels (Exclusive)
The director tells THR that he would "personally favor" 60 fps as he urges the production and exhibition industries to adopt higher frame rates.
Source: THR

Jean-Luc Godard may have famously said that "cinema is truth 24 frames per second," but James Cameron is currently convinced that shooting at a rate of 60 frames per second offers a more truthful image.

As he readies to shoot Avatar 2 and 3, the technologically-savvy director has been looking at higher frame rates of 48 and 60 frames per second. And, he tells The Hollywood Reporter, at the moment he would "personally favor" 60 fps. "I think it is such an affinitive answer," he said. "But other people may choose 48 for other reasons."

Last March at CinemaCon, Cameron said he "fully intends" to film the Avatar sequels at a higher frame rate and he presented an extensive test showing the differences between images shot at 24, 48 and 60 fps. At that time, he said, "The 3D shows you a window into reality; the higher frame rate takes the glass out of the window."

But as for choosing between 48—which Peter Jackson has selected for production of The Hobbit—and 60, Cameron left that for the industry to discuss.

"The reason I went down that path is because I believe it makes for better 3D," Cameron said of his advocacy of higher frame rates in a new interview with The Hollywood Reporter. "There were lots of arguments for why 48 and why 60. My feeling is if it is a software upgrade (for digital cinema projectors), do both. It doesn't change anything at the projector; you don't have to change the lamp house or the lenses. If you are uploading software you can upload it for 48 and 60 and let the filmmakers decide."

In terms of how he will decide at what rate to shoot the Avatar sequels, Cameron said, "If the exhibitors will adopt the idea of a dual standard, than I'll probably want to shoot 60. If they don't, then I will have to look very carefully at the pros and cons of 60 and 48."

Frame rates are the number of images displayed by a projector within one second. 24 frames per second (fps) has long been the standard in cinema; television uses higher rates including 50 fps and 60 fps, which can mean less motion blur and judder in the images.

In related news, Lightstorm Entertainment and digital cinema projector maker Christie recently inked a five-year agreement aimed at furthering 3D digital cinema and the use of higher frame rates. Additionally, Christie has started to demonstrate the use of higher frames rates within a single projector setup.

As part of the agreement with Lightstorm, Christie will assist in outfitting Cameron's new production facilities, including two screening rooms that will serve as virtual production sites for the next two Avatar movies.

Projectors are just one part of the equation. Cameron said, "The cost (to go to higher frame rates) is not at the camera, which is very straightforward; the cost is not at the projectors, because it is a software upgrade. I could go out right now, shoot a movie at 60 fps if it was all live action and project it, and have a stunning effect. It has value immediately. What we have to work on is the FX workflow—primarily the render pipeline."

"The trick in the near term is going to be to not have a big upward inflection in the cost of visual effects," he explained. "I believe there are ways to do it, but there is some code that needs to be written to do it, and I'm working with some of the big FX providers on that now. You can't expect people to run off adopting a higher frame rate if it is going to cost an addition 10 percent of their FX costs, which are already pretty high. We have to get it down to 1 percent or so, which I think is achievable.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Reel on September 20, 2011, 10:40:28 AM
What does that even look like, anyone have any examples? Or does Cameron just want to be the pioneer of something again.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Ravi on September 21, 2011, 07:25:47 PM
Quote from: Reelist on September 20, 2011, 10:40:28 AM
What does that even look like, anyone have any examples? Or does Cameron just want to be the pioneer of something again.

He is right about higher frame rates being better for 3D, but I think he's done making movies and has instead decided to make expensive tech demos.

Maybe Avatar 2 will be about evil marauders from the 2D, 24fps planet.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: MacGuffin on March 18, 2013, 03:10:02 PM
James Cameron Talks about Building Momentum on Writing AVATAR 2 and AVATAR 3
Source: Collider

Last November, James Cameron said he hoped to have the scripts for Avatar 2 and Avatar 3 finished by February, and planned to shoot later this year.  February has now come and gone, and Cameron is still at work on getting back into the world of Pandora.  But not to worry, Avatar fans.  Cameron is still plugging away at the sequels, and he's close to reaching the point where the story begins to write itself.

Speaking to Play Goes Strong [via Bleeding Cool], Cameron talked about trying to build Avatar sequels from scratch:

"I'm working on 'Avatar 2′ and 'Avatar 3.' I was talking the other day with Peter Jackson and said, 'You had it easy dude. You had the books when you did the second and third 'Lord of the Rings.' I have to create my own books in my head and extract a script from it. I'm deep into it and I'm living in Pandora right now. There is that start up torque where you feel it's coming to you. Then you build up momentum. That's when it gets fun. The characters talk and it's writing itself. I'm almost there right now. It's building fast."

I suppose for Cameron, "book in my head" equals "FernGully: The Last Rainforest".  The good news is that there was a direct-to-video sequel, FernGully 2: The Magical Rescue.

Cameron says that for him to get into the headspace to write the sequels, he needs isolation.  "I'm calling you from New Zealand right now where I'm writing on a little farm," Cameron told PGS.  "When you live in a special world like Pandora, you have to live in that world."

Finally, when asked about the pressure of topping his record-breaking and influential film, and when we might see the sequels, Cameron responded:

"Pressure, no. It's a little daunting because sequels are always tricky. You have to be surprising and stay ahead of audience anticipation. At the same time, you have to massage their feet with things that they know and love about the first film. I've walked that line in the past, so I'm not too worried about it. At the same time, I definitely have to deliver the goods...As for a release date that will be determined by when I get the script out. No pressure!"
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Neil on March 18, 2013, 03:24:31 PM
Quote from: MacGuffin on March 18, 2013, 03:10:02 PM
James Cameron Talks about Building Momentum on Writing AVATAR 2 and AVATAR 3
Source: Collider

Cameron says that for him to get into the headspace to write the sequels, he needs isolation.  "I'm calling you from New Zealand right now where I'm writing on a little farm," Cameron told PGS.  "When you live in a special world like Pandora, you have to live in that world."

No wonder everything that I've written lately ends up being about living in a house where the people who enter ask, "is there a gas leak in here?" With 3 grown adults who can't clean up after themselves.



Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Reel on March 18, 2013, 03:26:20 PM
Quote from: MacGuffin on March 18, 2013, 03:10:02 PM
I was talking the other day with Peter Jackson and said, 'You had it easy dude. You had the books when you did the second and third 'Lord of the Rings.' I have to create my own books in my head and extract a script from it. I'm deep into it and I'm living in Pandora right now."

he sounds like such a stoner.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Lottery on March 18, 2013, 03:35:52 PM
He should just make submarines and go to the bottom of the ocean for the rest of his life. That is relevant to my interests.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: MacGuffin on December 16, 2013, 04:23:14 PM
AP INTERVIEW: CAMERON SEES EPIC IN 'AVATAR' FILMS

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — James Cameron says his vision for his three "Avatar" sequels is to create a family epic in the mold of "The Godfather" that will introduce viewers to new cultures and go underwater on his fictional moon Pandora.

The director announced Monday he will be filming the sequels in New Zealand, where he shot the triple Academy Award-winning original. In an interview with The Associated Press, Cameron also talked about life on a New Zealand farm, where he's growing walnuts and allowing his children to roam.

Cameron, 59, said he plans to release the first sequel in 2016, seven years after the release of "Avatar," which has become the highest-grossing film in history with a box office take of nearly $2.8 billion.

He said a core team has been developing new software for the sequels even while he's been gone on other projects, including 18 months planning a 7-mile descent to the deepest part of the ocean, which he successfully completed last year.

"It's going to be a lot of new imagery and a lot of new environments and creatures across Pandora," he said. "We're blowing it out all over the place. At first I thought I was going to take it onto other worlds as well, in the same solar system, but it turned out not to be necessary. I mean the Pandora that we have imagined will be a fantasy land that is going to occupy people for decades to come, the way I see it."

Cameron said the films will explore different Na'vi cultures as well the cultures of other Pandora creatures.

"There's a fair bit of underwater stuff. It's been inaccurately said that the second film takes place underwater. That's not true," he said. "There are underwater scenes and surface-water scenes having to do with indigenous ocean cultures that are distributed across the three films."

He said water is enormously difficult to recreate on a computer, something he's been talking about with Joe Letteri, the visual effects supervisor at Weta Digital.

"I said Joe, you know, there's a lot of water," Cameron said. "And he basically said 'Bring it on. We're ready.'"

He said the first movie focused on the main character, Jake Sully.

"It was very Jake-centric. His story seen through his eyes," Cameron said. "We spread it around quite a bit more as we go forward. It's really the story of his family, the family that he creates on Pandora. His extended family. So think of it as a family saga like 'The Godfather.'"

Cameron said the theme of sustainability that runs through the "Avatar" series also extends to his personal life. He and fifth wife Suzy Amis bought a farm about 90 minutes' drive from Wellington where they spend some of the year with their three children. Cameron said he's putting in 650 walnut trees.

"There'll also be tree crops, grains, produce, it will be quite a mixed bag," he said. "But really, I think of it as an experimental station to look at various sustainable agriculture approaches."

A native of Canada, Cameron said the New Zealand farm feels like "closing a loop" after he spent summers on his grandfather's farm in southern Ontario.

"The kids love it here. They love that combination of freedom and responsibility that you get here because you can run freely," he said. "There are no predators and snakes and that sort of thing. We just let them go out with a walkie-talkie, and as long as they are back by dinner, we don't care where they are."

He said he plans to bring his own helicopter from California to help make the commute from the farm to Wellington when he's working on the movies.

Before then, he said, he'll be throwing a Christmas party for the community around his farm. He said about 95 people turned up last year but he worries that numbers could be down this year because it's going to be an all-vegan menu, a lifestyle his family recently adopted.
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on October 01, 2017, 12:31:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=179&v=jVhlJNJopOQ
Title: Re: Avatar 2
Post by: Ravi on October 29, 2018, 07:45:56 PM
http://www.vulture.com/amp/2018/10/a-year-after-snls-papyrus-sketch-avatar-picks-a-new-font.html?fbclid=IwAR15rpP_vuhgBICmysgQsAlOFXczv5-QDmvCcAF6_ylcdEsE2LBlhRN2Zl4

Avatar Picks a New Font a Year After SNL's 'Papyrus' Sketch
By Megh Wright

It's been a little over a year since SNL writer Julio Torres gave us the truly riveting "Papyrus" sketch starring Ryan Gosling, and now, it's officially made a lasting impact on Avatar itself. While we can count on James Cameron to release a whopping four Avatar sequels over the next seven years, one thing won't be returning with the franchise, and that's — you guessed it — the Papyrus font. Here's the new logo that was revealed this week:

(https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2018/10/29/29-new-avatar.w570.h570.2x.jpg)
Title: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: WorldForgot on December 19, 2022, 11:26:27 AM
(https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/avatar-2-whale-creature.jpg)

JB's made a good post over on the first one's thread.  (https://xixax.com/index.php?topic=9031.msg377199;boardseen#new)

Avatar 2's opening, among 2022 debuts:
1. DOCTOR STRANGER ($187M)
2. WAKANDA FOREVER ($181M)
3. JURASSIC WORLD: BIG D ($145M)
4. THOR 4 ($144M)
5. THE BATMAN ($134M)
6. AVATAR 2 ($134M)
7. TOP GUN: MAVERICK ($126M)
8. MINIONS 2 ($107M)
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 19, 2022, 03:34:42 PM
The current global box office (434.5 million) is about 1/4 of what's needed for Avatar 2 to be profitable, according to Cameron. It's going to have to stick around and perform like Top Gun... which is possible.

I honestly wonder if the lackluster 78% Rotten Tomatoes score is having an impact.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: WorldForgot on December 19, 2022, 04:17:56 PM
It'll definitely gain traction, there's no real competition for it in the coming weeks. Christmas weekend -> New Years will be interesting.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: polkablues on December 19, 2022, 05:08:07 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on December 19, 2022, 03:34:42 PMI honestly wonder if the lackluster 78% Rotten Tomatoes score is having an impact.

If I were to guess, I think it's more an issue with the lackluster 13-year-old movie that it's a sequel to.

(https://media.tenor.com/cmwedILasMIAAAAC/boom-roasted.gif)
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 19, 2022, 05:20:25 PM
If there's anything Avatar lacks, it's certainly not luster.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on December 19, 2022, 05:35:49 PM
I had read some positive reviews, but watching The Way of Water, I wondered how it could benefit from the kind of word of mouth that makes you the Biggest Movie of All Time. I would have been the mocked executive asking Cameron to recut the movie. In 2009, flying around in 3D was a huge thing, but here...When I read "I'd never seen something like that before", I wonder what they're talking about. Surprisingly, they don't tell us what that means exactly. Not only I had seen all of this before, I had seen infinitely better versions. In Disney Channel or previous James Cameron movies. 

It will do good. But this franchise should thankfully stop after Avatar 3.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: WorldForgot on December 19, 2022, 05:48:28 PM
I can't think of one franchise where there were five movies back to back with consistent quality... Even Bond or Friday the 13th had their duds at that rate (F13 a bit less so).
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 19, 2022, 07:13:50 PM
Quote from: WorldForgot on December 19, 2022, 05:48:28 PMI can't think of one franchise where there were five movies back to back with consistent quality... Even Bond or Friday the 13th had their duds at that rate (F13 a bit less so).

Struggling to think of examples I would vouch for, but I can see people making an argument for some of these franchises:

- Mission: Impossible
- Fast & Furious
- Alien
- Saw

Actually I might put my vote in for the Alien franchise. I remember liking the ones people thought were terrible.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: WorldForgot on December 19, 2022, 08:23:39 PM
As somebody that enjoys most of the SAW franchise, I think they only ever had 3 back-to-back consistent ones. Mission: Impossible I could see people being able to defend 3-6 as a run for sure. They'll have a "consistent" backbone of 5 by the time they're done.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1050231475586465792/1054579685289377882/FkS1863XgAA_Jn0.png)
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: polkablues on December 19, 2022, 11:12:42 PM
I could maybe make a case for Fast and Furious 3-7 (though only 5 and 6 are truly great). Final Destination comes close, but the fourth movie is an abomination. I would definitely make a case for the Purge series, especially if you count the two seasons of the TV version. The quality level wavers a bit from movie to movie, but every iteration has at least something worthwhile and expands on the series thematically.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on December 20, 2022, 07:39:27 AM
He remade Avatar in the water. He can remake Avatar in the fire, in the snow, in...the mist?
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: RudyBlatnoyd on December 20, 2022, 07:50:15 AM
The world's first ambient epic blockbuster series: each new instalment will contain less and less plot, instead giving over most of its runtime to simply vibing in a new, outrageously expensive digital environment.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on December 20, 2022, 08:09:04 AM
Quote from: RudyBlatnoyd on December 20, 2022, 07:50:15 AMThe world's first ambient epic blockbuster series: each new instalment will contain less and less plot, instead giving over most of its runtime to simply vibing in a new, outrageously expensive digital environment.

Until they come up with Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: polkablues on December 20, 2022, 03:18:49 PM
Quote from: RudyBlatnoyd on December 20, 2022, 07:50:15 AMThe world's first ambient epic blockbuster series: each new instalment will contain less and less plot, instead giving over most of its runtime to simply vibing in a new, outrageously expensive digital environment.

The last movie is just going to be one of those 24-hour fireplace videos.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 27, 2022, 06:56:13 PM
I wonder if the Avatar 1 remastered re-release primed me for it or trained my brain in some specific way, because the variable framerate was by far the highlight of Avatar 2 for me. I need James Cameron & co to teach other filmmakers how they accomplished this, because I need to see it in other movies. The high framerate feels absolutely essential for The Way of Water to play the way it does. And I found the FPS ramping to be far more seamless in this compared to the Avatar 1 remaster. The motion grading (https://www.thewrap.com/avatar-high-frame-rate-upgrade-explained/) worked flawlessly for me.

This also happens to have the best visual effects ever done in a movie, and it's not even close. As with Avatar 1, this world and its creatures are simply real, here even moreso. I didn't detect a single unconvincing frame. Miraculous. And of course it's stunningly beautiful and inspired. There's less of a shock factor here, because the first movie exists, but I still thought it was glorious. This had an identical existential effect on me, where once it's over you just feel like a zombie walking out into a cold, gray world, a transition so jarring that the film you just saw can only live in a dream space.

I have some complaints. Kinda wish Cameron was not given a writer's room for this movie, because I found the story and dialogue to be pretty comprehensively inferior. Some of the new characters are quite good, but it gets very tropey with story beats you've seen a thousand times before, far more than the first film. And the acting is noticeably worse. Strange!

It's still the best movie I've seen this year (so far).

Spoiler: ShowHide
To be clear, I had no problem with most of the story—just the third act, really, which had a lot of generic stuff that I could've done without. I hesitate to say this, but it had a Marvel feel... like, you know, we're on a big vessel that's slowly blowing up over the course of 45 minutes, and the kids are taken hostage, except it's a trap, except we can still rescue them, etc. That was disappointing for a movie that's otherwise operating on an absurdly high level of imagination.

Also, I think we spent a bit too much time with Spider. I've had more than my fill of that greasy little man with his dopey expressions and unsettling loincloth.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: WorldForgot on December 27, 2022, 07:02:22 PM
" They even said that one day, there's a chance they'll calibrate television sets for an optimized picture quality" hmmm... Not sure how I feel about across the board motion-grading. It seems like that ought to be something that's designed per-project rather than applied to all our content?

"Each movie is different, with the calibration depending on how much or how little the filmmaker wants to, in Casillas' words, "push the envelope." One thing that the TrueCut Motion team is keenly aware of is what they refer to as "jutter" or strobing – a jittery effect that can oftentimes accompany certain camera movements, especially if they are against an ultra-detailed, high-res backdrop. As a test, the team showed me various streaming shows and movies that, honestly, looked pretty crummy, even with the highest quality monitor. Then they showed me those same shows run through this proprietary process. The scenes came alive."

I'll need to see these examples before I feel less suspicious.

QuoteAnd the acting is noticeably worse

Interesting! The returning cast members don't work as well in this film as they did in the first?
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 27, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
Quote from: WorldForgot on December 27, 2022, 07:02:22 PM
QuoteAnd the acting is noticeably worse

Interesting! The returning cast members don't work as well in this film as they did in the first?

Spoilers for returning cast

Well, let's see. Sam Worthington is actually better (probably the best performance in the movie, believe it or not). Stephen Lang is about the same. Zoe Saldana is worse. Sigourney Weaver, well, she had some great scenes, and some sketchy ones. (What's going on with her accent?)
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on December 27, 2022, 07:25:14 PM
Quote from: WorldForgot on December 27, 2022, 07:02:22 PM
QuoteAnd the acting is noticeably worse

Interesting! The returning cast members don't work as well in this film as they did in the first?

I rewatched Avatar after despising The Way of Water and Sam Worthington delivers a masterclass compared to the sequel where he frowns throughout the movie and repeats some paternalistic lines from the eighties. Neytiri is barely a character in the sequel, so all the racist tropes are more troublesome. (She spends her ten minutes of screen time making animal noises. The accent is stronger.) Nobody has anything to play. Kiri has also ten minutes of screen time and spends most of it looking like an awed teenager at Disney World. I hope Kate Winslet got payed generously for learning to hold her breath for no particular reason, she's barely in the movie and has no real line of dialogue. The kids are Disney Channel characters.

Jeremy points some of the major things I disliked in the movie, which is interesting because he still found matter to love. Rewatching Avatar, it's also obvious that the franchise making of the sequels is a disastrous development. Nothing happens in the Way of Water. But isn't contemplative. It's a giant teaser. The final act isn't spectacular because it's filler. It reminded me of a secondary quest in a video game. The bad guys are literally introduced two hours in with some unnecessary McGuffin. I was heartbroken when I realized that I was really watching the climax of the movie because I was bored to death.

The issue with making filler to prepare another sequel is that you're not actually making anything interesting here. Avatar had a classical narrative but was a real movie, whereas, yes, James Cameron is now in the MCU business—it was even worse than some Marvel movies I've seen the past decades because the plot beats (and this movie is 80% a succession of quick plot beats) seemed AI generated. In that regard, the first hour is the worst thing I've seen in years.

When Cameron made Terminator 2, he made Terminator 2. He wasn't preparing a franchise just for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: pynchonikon on December 29, 2022, 04:50:44 AM
Well, just like the Machines will never stop trying to kill John Connor till they succeed, humanity will never stop trying to colonize Pandora - kill Toruk Makto in the meantime?

Congratulations to James Cameron for giving us the most expensive direct-to-video Disney sequel ever made, I guess.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on December 29, 2022, 06:01:10 AM
Yeah, I realized halfway through that there was no reason to pursue the guy who had given up on the war. (The way they do is hilarious: nobody cared about writing a real hunt.)

In general, the story makes no sense. Avatar had a classical template but executed it properly. This? Cameron took to heart the complains about the story and produced in result thousand bits of incoherent stories mixed together.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: RudyBlatnoyd on December 29, 2022, 11:22:09 AM
Finally saw this. There are many legitimate complaints to be levelled at the story and the awful dialogue, but I don't see how anyone could fail to be impressed by the technical accomplishments. The attention to detail is remarkable - I kept noticing little things like the way the waves would lap against the shore or the way the Spider character blended seamlessly into the Pandora environment and thinking to myself 'Good lord, this is impressive.' Now, does a series of reactions like that mean that it is a good movie? Probably not, but being able to generate that reaction from a viewer who's grown jaded with SFX-driven movies is not nothing.

Watching this in IMAX 3D felt almost like hallucinating after a while; my brain knew that what it was seeing wasn't real, but it accepted it anyway. I don't remember being so impressed by the first one - this felt like a giant leap forward to me, technically at least.

God help me, I'll see the third one.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 29, 2022, 01:12:28 PM
Avatar 2 falls short of the first because it has too much story. I would rather see the Avatar movies fully comit to what they are, because it's a legitimate alternative to traditional blockbuster filmmaking, and no one does it better. The value is in the beauty and immersion. The "effects" shouldn't be there to support a Marvel-style action plot. It's the inverse. The ideal Avatar movie has just barely enough story to hold it together.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: RudyBlatnoyd on January 03, 2023, 02:32:12 AM
I see Cameron has said that there will be fire Na'vi in the third movie, known as Ash People, and they will be evil or something.

Every idea this man ever had while stoned in college is going to be realised onscreen and gross many billions of dollars.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on January 03, 2023, 05:48:11 AM
Quote from: RudyBlatnoyd on January 03, 2023, 02:32:12 AMI see Cameron has said that there will be fire Na'vi in the third movie, known as Ash People, and they will be evil or something.

Every idea this man ever had while stoned in college is going to be realised onscreen and gross many billions of dollars.

I was joking when I talked about Fire Avatar, but...that's all they have to do. The Big Volcano That Is Called A Vulkoun will be their friend and help them defeat the human military with nuclear fire. Ash People will accept the power of nature and kiss Jake Sully in the mouth.

Another thing I noticed: the voice over in Avatar is diegetic, Sully has a diary, and his dialogue is more natural and humane. In The Way of Water, it's generic voice-over. His tone of voice is robotic and the actual lines are generic. That + the overbearing music in the first forty minutes where scenes don't last longer than fifteen seconds were very unpleasant to me.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: RudyBlatnoyd on January 03, 2023, 07:56:10 AM
If he does try to introduce some more moral ambiguity to the Na'vi characters, he might come a cropper at the box office in the third movie. No doubt some such narrative complexity would be welcome from an artistic standpoint, but I don't think it's a secret that the very simple 'American colonisers bad, indigenous populations good' formula is part of its enormous appeal in overseas territories.

Also, I don't know that a massive CGI volcano has as much imaginative appeal as an ocean teeming with alien fish, space whales etc. But I'd be foolish to cast too much doubt on the Cameron Midas touch at this point.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: WorldForgot on January 03, 2023, 08:40:49 PM
Aguatar
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: polkablues on January 03, 2023, 11:27:11 PM
Avatar 3: Lavatar
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Drenk on January 04, 2023, 08:16:20 AM
Preview.

Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Alethia on January 04, 2023, 11:14:35 AM
Featuring the ghosts of Maurice and Katia Krafft resurrected as Na'vi to aid in diplomacy with the Ash folk and get some bomb-ass b-roll for Jimmy
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 04, 2023, 05:19:46 PM
'Avatar 3' Will Introduce Some Evil Fire Na'vi, Hints James Cameron: 'I Want to Show the Na'vi From Another Angle'

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-3-fire-navi-james-cameron-pandora-civil-war-1235477758/

 In James Cameron's "Avatar" and "Avatar: The Way of Water," moviegoers are introduced to two different Na'vi clans, the forest-dwelling Omaticaya and the water-dwelling Metkayina. Both tribes are peaceful and only resort to violence when their land is seized upon by humans. However, audiences might soon find out that not all Na'vi are good Na'vi. James Cameron told France's "20 Minutes" (via Total Film) that the next installment, the still-untitled "Avatar 3," will introduce a third clan of Pandora that shows off the Na'vi's darker side.

Cameron said "Avatar 3" will explore "different cultures from those I have already shown. The fire will be represented by the 'Ash People.' I want to show the Na'vi from another angle because, so far, I have only shown their good sides."

"In the early films, there are very negative human examples and very positive Na'vi examples," the director continued. "In 'Avatar 3,' we will do the opposite. We will also explore new worlds, while continuing the story of the main characters. I can say that the last parts will be the best. The others were an introduction, a way to set the table before serving the meal."
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on January 07, 2023, 12:57:19 AM
Saw it again, this time sans IMAX, in RealD 3D with HFR. Do all the 3D screenings have HFR? Probably. Anyway, the whole thing was presented in the IMAX aspect ratio on a normal-size screen without even pretending to be IMAX. Interesting.

I think I pinpointed the things that still bother me:

Spoiler: ShowHide
Spider makes several scenes worse by constantly yelling or begging. "This is wrong! What you're doing is wrong!" or "Let her go! Please just let her go!" He's definitely less annoying when he's not doing that.

I was a bit harsh on the acting, but mostly it's the way actors enunciate Ts ("it is"), clearly reaching for a well-worn accent stereotype.


But my estimation of the film has actually gone up significantly, and now I think it's probably better than the first. Avatar is very simple – a strength, mostly. The second movie decides to be much messier and weirder and just kind of does whatever it wants at all times.

Avatar 1 has an elegant, potent message. Avatar 2 has a lot more on its mind, and through the mess ends up being more thematically rich. Especially thinking about the Tulkun and everything surrounding them, including their history. You could also write a thesis on the blue marines – there's a reason images of them are becoming memeified in way you didn't see with the first movie.

It's a bit schizophrenic about when it wants to hold your hand and when it absolutely doesn't. On balance, I find a lot of joy in the way Avatar 2 resists explanation or insert shots where you've been trained to expect them.

The tropes felt less tropey on second watch, for whatever reason. And the characters worked much better for me, especially Jake's family. Cared about them a whole lot more this time.

The last 10 minutes is like a little masterpiece of a short film, a stunning coda that's just pure cinema. We get something like that to conclude Avatar 1, but this takes that feeling to a new level.

Both screenings were kind of like my experience with Dune. It wrecked me. I felt like my tiny human consciousness was barely capable of dealing with the magnitude of the beauty.
Title: Re: Avatar: The Way of Water
Post by: OstrichRidingCowboy on January 14, 2023, 05:00:43 PM
It's Inglourious Basterds for liberals, your honor.