Martial Arts Films

[Bruce Lee]

ermm not quite as much as Bruce LEE

[reelistics07]

what about shaw brothers? gordon liu? sonny chiba?samo hung? the real oldschool cats that got martial arts films started in the first place. theres nothing worse than a bad martial arts film, cuz theyre directed like pornos and have no structure at all , and the audio is always fucked up with the visual...     but the shaw brothers really could direct well, there shots are well orchestrated. unfortunately, ive never seen any bruce lee films! i prolly should shouldnt i? ...ill get around to it

[pete]

shaw brothers are producers, they never directed shit.  they produced some of the best kungfu movies no doubt.  Sammo was really the start of the new school, with more slapstick comedy and colloquial dialogues.  He also brought a lot of korean martial arts in his choreography (like Bruce before him) with his training in hapkido.  Before that it was primarily a hung gar world, thanks to Gordon Liu and mainly his brother Lau KarLeung, even Bruce Lee was drawing heavily from Wing Chun.  Then Sammo and the Yuen clan came along and started incorporating long fist and very stylize northern kungfu, which was good and bad at the same time.  Good because the fights are more acrobatic and cinematic (Sammo also made famous the snap zooms in long dolly shots, which must've been such a pain in the ass to be zooming in and out of complex hand exchanges in the middle of a long fight sequence) but bad because it strayed away from real martial arts into the realm of "Shit that looks kinda cool but hoaky when done wrong".
But if we're just judging them as films, the most influencial and perhaps the greatest directors of martial arts movies were King Hu and Chang Cheh.
So Bruce Lee is not the end all be all of the martial arts genre.  He was amazing to watch, but have you seen his group fights?  20-50 guys just lining up to get beat up while the rest of them moved about in the background, dancing threateningly.  It was nothing like a Lau KarLeung or a Sammo fight where everyone ATTACKS AT ONCE and you watch the fighters (or the fight choreographer) figure out a way to fight his way outta this via distancing and weaponry and acrobatics.  And the argument over the title of his films are meaningless because no matter Return of the Dragon or Way of the Dragon, they're still just English translation of Chinese titles that didn't even mean remotely the same thing.
Plus, Fist of Fury was released in America before Enter the Dragon.

[Bruce Lee]

If faced in a real situation of a group attack its doubtful that all would attack at the same time, you'd have a messy orgy of people kicking and pilling onto your own men.
I think its more realistic for say maybe 3 to run up and have ago whilst the others watch and see if their needed.....and when you're dealing with Bruce Lee, you'd be less eager to go screaming in like an indian

[pete]

I've been in group fights and have seen group fights--nobody eagerly waits his turn to get beat up.  people wanna grab you and sucker punch you, and you have to move around a lot to prevent this from happening.  this is not so in Bruce Lee's fight scenes.  it's poorly choreographed, there's no "in real life" excuse to cover it up.  Bruce still moves like the sharpest mofo in the world, but c'mon, the choreography sucks.

[Bruce Lee]

His choreography is/was ground-braking. He even got work as a fight choreographer on the Wrecking Crew.
Bruce's fight choreography topped anything at the time in Hong Kong, the timing was awesome and highly realistic.

....You saying the underground cavern fight in Enter is not spectacular?

I've been/seen group fights also, and when theres already two people trying to get hold of one person, its quite hard to run in and not get elbowed in the face.

To say Bruce didn't do excellent fight choreography is like saying that Chuck Norris is a superb actor.

[pete]

ah finally someone on this board who watches martial arts movies, then turns out he only does bruce lee.

[Bruce Lee]

I do watch the HK Jet Li movies and some Jackie before he became a retarded comedian.
but when watching i can't help but think it would be better if Bruce would just happen to walk in and give everyone a little wake up slapping.

[reelistics07]

shaw brothers are producers, they never directed shit.  they produced some of the best kungfu movies no doubt.  Sammo was really the start of the new school, with more slapstick comedy and colloquial dialogues.  He also brought a lot of korean martial arts in his choreography (like Bruce before him) with his training in hapkido.  Before that it was primarily a hung gar world, thanks to Gordon Liu and mainly his brother Lau KarLeung, even Bruce Lee was drawing heavily from Wing Chun.  Then Sammo and the Yuen clan came along and started incorporating long fist and very stylize northern kungfu, which was good and bad at the same time.  Good because the fights are more acrobatic and cinematic (Sammo also made famous the snap zooms in long dolly shots, which must've been such a pain in the ass to be zooming in and out of complex hand exchanges in the middle of a long fight sequence) but bad because it strayed away from real martial arts into the realm of "Shit that looks kinda cool but hoaky when done wrong".
But if we're just judging them as films, the most influencial and perhaps the greatest directors of martial arts movies were King Hu and Chang Cheh.
So Bruce Lee is not the end all be all of the martial arts genre.  He was amazing to watch, but have you seen his group fights?  20-50 guys just lining up to get beat up while the rest of them moved about in the background, dancing threateningly.  It was nothing like a Lau KarLeung or a Sammo fight where everyone ATTACKS AT ONCE and you watch the fighters (or the fight choreographer) figure out a way to fight his way outta this via distancing and weaponry and acrobatics.  And the argument over the title of his films are meaningless because no matter Return of the Dragon or Way of the Dragon, they're still just English translation of Chinese titles that didn't even mean remotely the same thing.
Plus, Fist of Fury was released in America before Enter the Dragon.

wow man , thats great that you know so much. and i like how you put out info like you want others to learn about it to, not just " i know this , you dont, you fuckin idiot" . yeah, and as far as choreography goes, it is very unrealistic to show 7 people basically waiting in line to get theirs. its show the lack of skill of the choreographers, and its still skillful though, still very well done, yet it doesnt compare to the scenes that play like actual scenarios , when the lead guy fighting will bust down some guy, skip to the next, and by the time hes done with the second guy the first is back up and ready to fight but he gets knocked on his ass again. and i shouldve know  that the shaw brothers were producers, it was two guys right?.......... im really not too well educated on martial arts films, but i should be .. anyways hit us with some knowledge, im willin to hear whatever you got to say. i hate it when people think they know theyre shit yet they think bruce lee is as deep as it goes, just because he was the first ( was he the first?) to star in mainstream films shown in the u.s

[pete]

yeah I try to learn a lotta arts, not to fight, but to put them in my movies.  I recently did one with my two friends where we tried to imitate the old skool style (very rhythmic exchanges with a lot of pauses and solid techniques) you can find it here .  But there are plenty of people online right now all trying to make it with various styles.

[reelistics07]

so do you learn from training with an instructor or from observing the films? and how do your movies look? do you have the right people  playing the characters? it sucks when you got a great role for somebody but your  only friend willing to do it is some scrawny, little pasty white kid with glasses that no one would ever be afraid of is he busted out of some bushes , lockin his stance. anyways, how many films have you done? id love to do some martial arts films man, plus i know a  fair amount of people who practice and would probably be willing to do it. but i really wouldnt be able to elaborate with the choreography and everything , since im not as skilled as the people that i know in martial arts. but im catching on, if you got enough people working with you,under the right circumstances and everything, making a kung fu film would be some fuuuuuuuuun shit!

[pete]

I learned from instructors and friends for the actual techniques, but there are a lot of moves that are movie-specific.  Especially the fancy reaction falls--the hong kong spin, the gainer, the "front fall tiger"...etc., we'd watch the moves over and over again and practice on gymnastic mats.  Having friends who break or do capoera really help on the acrobatics stuff, but now the acrobatic stuff is so popular my friends and I are trying to do the 70's old skool style again.  I gave you a link to a small clip I made in my previous post, you can check that out.
If you wanna try your hand at shooting martial arts you should definitely pick up Jackie Chan's instructional dvd called "my stunts", he talked a lot about the rhythm, the camera, the editing, the reaction, and a list of don'ts.  It's entertaining and informative (ooh oh oh, "infotaning") to say the least.

[Bruce Lee]

...Fist of Fury was released in America before Enter the Dragon.

Erm no it wasn't it was 'return of the dragon' (actual name 'Way of the Dragon', hence adding the ''return'' to entice viewers.

And i don't know what Bruce Lee movies you've been watching but there are lots of scenes where he takes on more than 3 guys at the same time (Enter, cave scene with the Bo stick/Kali sticks) + towards the end of The Big Boss.
And the fact that Bruce could knock out the guy as quick as he could reach him might explain why it looks like a line up for hurt

[reelistics07]

Bruce IS the man, ok but hes not the ONLY man!

[Bruce Lee]

well, there isn't anyone near of Bruce's callibre around, so yes he's the only one.