Author Topic: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!  (Read 20006 times)

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wilberfan

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2017, 02:30:38 PM »
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Yeah, hearing "Arthouse Fifty Shades of Gray" a couple of months ago made me sad.  I hadn't seen 50 Shades at all, but referring to PT this way made me sad anyway.   Is that description even remotely close to being valid??
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modage

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2017, 02:36:23 PM »
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No. It is not even remotely close to being valid.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

jenkins

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2017, 02:43:06 PM »
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it's also not like any Mike Leigh movie. basically all the rumors were false, pretty much every one maybe.

KJ

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2017, 07:58:16 PM »
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b-b-but I wanted 50 shades )):

Pringle

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2017, 04:30:44 PM »
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I may be wrong, but I don't remember two of the shots from the trailers ever appearing in the film: the quick push in at the restaurant where Reynolds looks up from a piece of paper he's writing on, and the other slow push-in on Reynolds with his arms crossed as he says "There is an air of quiet death in this house."

Did I just miss these shots in the final film?

boogienights

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2017, 05:15:31 PM »
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I may be wrong, but I don't remember two of the shots from the trailers ever appearing in the film: the quick push in at the restaurant where Reynolds looks up from a piece of paper he's writing on, and the other slow push-in on Reynolds with his arms crossed as he says "There is an air of quiet death in this house."

Did I just miss these shots in the final film?

Did not see the push in, but I think thta my have been left on the cutting room floor as I think that's from the post wedding scene which pushed out, but he didn't put his glasses on or off like in the trailer

wilder

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2017, 07:49:51 PM »
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In any case I feel like the influence of Kubrick is present in more ambiguous and less easily measured ways, like for instance the conceptual structuring of the films.

The structure-of-my-own-invention aspect is present in TWBB too, but I don't think it's operating on the same level [as Kubrick]. Just different, not worse. There’s allegory but it’s primarily an inflation of the character’s uniquely personal desires, not necessarily a dually functioning grander statement about humanity at large.

During Phantom Thread I kept thinking Eyes Wide Shut, as I've since learned other people were, too, but it's really hard to explain why. It seemed the most invisibly Kubrick. I'm so curious to see if PT ends up mentioning anything about it.

Last night I was thinking about this, reading around to refresh my memory. I came across this page:

Quote from: Marcus Geduld
But it's a mistake to say that Kubrick believed the id would always triumph over the superego. He believed both forces would always be with us and would always be locked in battle. That is Kubrick's ethos: the battle between constraints and freedoms never ends. Society will always beat people down. The beast will always disrupt society. Society is good, because it keeps us from all killing each other; society is evil, because it castrates us; our natures are evil, because they are sexually depraved and murderous; our natures are good, because they're artistic and creative.

This is a markedly different ethos that that of most other artists. Most seem to take a side: human nature is wicked and must be subdued; culture is wicked and must be rebelled against. Humanity will ultimately triumph; Society will destroy humanity. Kubrick was neither a romantic nor an Orwellian. He was a Freudian. Neither the id nor the superego are going anywhere. They are both here to stay.

The more I think about it, the more I believe those ideas are present in Phantom Thread as well.


I guess there's not a ton to say about it operating both personally and superpersonally that isn't made explicit in the Geduld quote above. Reynolds as the unchained Id, embracing his base impulses and prioritizing creative output over interpersonal harmony, and Alma the limiting force that keeps him awake to the needs of the world at large. Neither Alma nor Reynolds (Id and SuperEgo) “win” in the end, rather there’s a seesaw balance between them, Reynold’s hedonistic working methods allowed to flourish for a time, and then Alma’s motherly containing influence being given a chance to propagate through her making him sick with the mushrooms. Reynold's artistic (beast) behavior runs right up against the edge of what’s acceptable within the limits of civilized society while still contributing to its enrichment, with Alma bringing self-awareness, making sure the river never runs over to a societally detrimental degree.

Pringle

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2017, 07:38:17 PM »
+2

wilberfan

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2017, 09:41:41 PM »
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Here's a great, in-depth, very spoilery interview with PTA about the film.


http://emanuellevy.com/review/featured-review/phantom-thread-paul-thomas-anderson-about-his-collaboration-with-daniel-day-lewis/

I suspect that was cobbled together from the several post-screening discussions he attended.  A couple of the quotes I recall from the screening I was at.

I still don't understand why DDL doesn't get a co-screenplay credit, though, after reading that. 
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matt35mm

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2017, 12:08:13 AM »
+3
I finally feel like I can say some real thoughts on the film now that I've seen it three times. The whole thing feels like a symphony, and there's only about 10 minutes of it that doesn't have score. Like it's one movement into another and into another. The editor, Dylan Tichenor, told me he was a little embarrassed by how much music there was, and I understand where he's coming from as music is so often a crutch, but here I feel like that symphonic idea is central to the DNA of the thing, and the music is the loveliest.

One major thing that I clocked onto this time was the idea (shared with THE MASTER) that these are two souls that are meeting again and again in different lives. I mean, I clocked onto that the first time when Alma literally says so toward the end of the film, but I thought about it in relation to the rest of the film, and in particular, with the idea of Alma's impulse to want to take care of Reynolds, and to have him be helpless. There is the scene when he is sick and hallucinating his mother, and Alma walks in and past the mother, and then walks by again and the mother is gone. His mind/heart begins to conflate Alma with his mother, who he misses very much.

Just before Reynolds meets Alma, he speaks of having an unsettled feeling that his mother is near him, watching over him. Then he meets Alma and takes her on a date then to his country home. He tells her that his mother is the first woman he dressed. He then dresses Alma, perhaps much the way he would've dressed his mother. Soon after, on the hill overlooking the sea, Reynolds says, "I feel as if I've been looking for you for a very long time." Alma: "You found me."

Without taking things QUITE literally, I do like to let some part of my brain take these things at face value when a character says, as Alma does here, and as Master does, that they are fundamentally connected with Reynolds/Freddie in past lives and future lives. The two balloons with messages that found their way to their intended destination (the beautiful poetic image from THE MASTER). And so I think about how very probably, Alma was born around the time that Reynolds' mother died, and the thing that he needs in Alma is subconsciously related to a feeling that he has found his mother again. Right after his hallucination of his mother blending with Alma, he proposes to Alma, having been previously so sure that he would never marry.

Their relationship is clearly more complicated than this, just as Freddie and Master's was, but there is this central recognition of each other, something that transcends the visible, moment to moment world.

The second-to-last image is Reynolds with his head in Alma's lap, as he must've done with his mother, this feeling of the ultimate homecoming and sense of peace. The final words spoken, spoken like a child to his mother, "... and I'm getting hungry."

What a lovely film.

An interesting tidbit from when I talked to PTA at a reception for the film:

People kept asking PTA how Reynolds knew that Alma was poisoning him in the climactic scene. He said he meant for it to be very clear that Alma is doing this in plain sight of Reynolds, so there's no guessing on his part. They both know what's going on, but it's a staring contest ("If you want to have a staring contest with me, you will lose"). PTA didn't mean for this to be ambiguous. He felt a little bad that this wasn't clearer.

wilberfan

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2017, 12:16:18 AM »
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I finally feel like I can say some real thoughts on the film now that I've seen it three times.

Fascinating.  With only one viewing (so far), I hadn't made the connection between his Mother and Alma.  That's definitely something to watch for next time. 

Curious, was this a DCP or 35mm print you saw this third time?
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matt35mm

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2017, 12:18:32 AM »
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I finally feel like I can say some real thoughts on the film now that I've seen it three times.

Fascinating.  With only one viewing (so far), I hadn't made the connection between his Mother and Alma.  That's definitely something to watch for next time. 

Curious, was this a DCP or 35mm print you saw this third time?

DCP this time, on the mixing stage where it was mixed!

wilberfan

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2017, 12:41:12 AM »
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It will be interesting to see if this rather extensive screener/working-the-guild-crowd will pay off in nominations/awards.  It's probably a reasonably smart way to get the film in front of the eyes that need to see it for positive awards outcomes.
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csage97

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2017, 01:15:52 PM »
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I finally feel like I can say some real thoughts on the film now that I've seen it three times. The whole thing feels like a symphony, and there's only about 10 minutes of it that doesn't have score. Like it's one movement into another and into another. The editor, Dylan Tichenor, told me he was a little embarrassed by how much music there was, and I understand where he's coming from as music is so often a crutch, but here I feel like that symphonic idea is central to the DNA of the thing, and the music is the loveliest.

It will be interesting to see if this rather extensive screener/working-the-guild-crowd will pay off in nominations/awards.  It's probably a reasonably smart way to get the film in front of the eyes that need to see it for positive awards outcomes.

Is the purpose of the limited release in major cities to have critics view it and generate some buzz for awards season in hopes that the awards buzz will bring in audiences upon a wider release? I understand the natural cycle of these sorts of releases (vs. big studio releases), but it sucks that some can see a film such as this three times while others in my sort of position won't have access to it for at least a month and maybe not at all until it's released on Blu Ray while I can go see Justice League or Thor or The Avengers very easily. (I'm not trying to point a finger at those who've seen it multiple times by now. Obviously they're not at all at fault and I'm totally happy that they took the opportunity; I would of course do the same. I'm just irrationally complaining about the way that movie distribution has to be.)

Maybe I'm projecting an unjustified sense of entitlement here. It's not like I'm talking about the fairness of access to food or housing or something. I guess I'm just letting out a sigh at the state of film distribution.

wilberfan

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Re: Phantom Thread - SPOILERS!
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2017, 01:23:06 PM »
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it sucks that some can see a film such as this three times while others in my sort of position won't have access to it for at least a month and maybe not at all until it's released on Blu Ray...

In a weird, twisted, unfair way the campaign is having it's desired effect:  It's building up buzz, getting people even more excited to see it.  (And there is no hesitation for stories/articles/posts to emphasize the "DDL's-last-role!" angle--which I never really think about, to be honest.  To me, this film represents "PTA's Latest Feature" and not "DDL's Last".
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