Xixax Film Forum

The Director's Chair => Stanley Kubrick => Topic started by: cowboykurtis on March 17, 2003, 11:36:27 AM

Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: cowboykurtis on March 17, 2003, 11:36:27 AM
Has anyone heard the story about  Gene Kelly giving Kubrick the permission to use the song  singing in the rain for A Clockwork Orange. Supposedly kubrick called him up and asks his persmission -- mr. kelly said go ahead, without bothering to ask in what context it would be used. so when the film was released, gene kelly saw alex singing it during the rape scene and was extremely pissed. they supposedly bumped into eachother at the academy awards and there was some exchange of unpleasant words. does anyone know of this sotry -- is there any truth to this? i found it amusing regardless.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: polkablues on March 17, 2003, 12:12:17 PM
I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm getting a good mental image of them in a "West Side Story"-style dance-brawl.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: MacGuffin on March 17, 2003, 12:31:30 PM
According to IMDB:

Malcolm McDowell chose to sing "Singin' In The Rain" during the rape scene, because it was the only song he knew all the lyrics to.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: cowboykurtis on March 17, 2003, 01:19:12 PM
even if that was the case with mcdowell -- kubrick still had to call gene kelly after the fact and get permission.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: Victor on March 17, 2003, 03:35:10 PM
thanks for that. i was thinking that same question two nights ago, watching clockwork. how the fuck did he ever get permission to use that?
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: MacGuffin on March 17, 2003, 05:46:39 PM
From the Turner Classic Movies website:

The song "Singin' in the Rain" has been featured in many films, but it was Stanley Kubrick who made ironic use of the song in his bleak vision of a dystopian future, A Clockwork Orange (1971). Kubrick mulled for days over a way to shoot the scene where Alex (Malcolm McDowell) brutalizes a woman. Out of the blue, he turned to McDowell and asked, "Can you sing?" McDowell replied, "I only know one song," and he started to do "Singin' in the Rain." Kubrick then left the room and called Warner Bros. in Hollywood to ask if he could obtain the rights to "Singin' in the Rain." He came back to the set an hour later and wryly told Adrienne Corri (cast as the rape/murder victim), "You're playing the Debbie Reynolds part, Corri." Coincidentally, Stanley Donen was in London at the time and not far from the location site for A Clockwork Orange. When Kubrick asked Donen for his opinion of this new use of the song, Donen surprisingly raised no objections.

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From American Cinematographer Magazine October 1999:

Perhaps the most audacious scene in Clockwork is the ruthless attack on the writer (Patrick Magee) and the rape of his wife (Adrienne Corri) by Alex and his gang. Little was accomplished during the first two days of shooting, but on the third day, Kubrick blocked out a portion of the action with McDowell, instructing him to knock Magee to the floor and begin kicking his guts out. The director then suddenly asked McDowell, "Can you sing?" It was suggested that the actor could improvise a song-and-dance number while administering the savage beating. McDowell confessed that "Singin' in the Rain" was the only tune he knew by heart. This resulted in what Kubrick calls the CRM, or "critical rehearsal moment," during which the director and actors come together to create a defining scene. Kubrick immediately looked into obtaining the rights to the song, and discovered that the fee was $10,000 to use it for 30 seconds. Once the rights were in hand, shooting proceeded immediately. Kubrick later invited Stanley Donen, the director of the musical classic, to view his scene and then asked Donen's personal permission to use the song for the sequence. "He wanted to make sure I wasn't offended," Donen reports in the biography Dancing on the Ceiling. "Why would I be? It didn't affect the movie Singin' in the Rain." Gene Kelly, who had performed the famous number in the 1952 film, felt otherwise. When Kelly and Kubrick met at an awards ceremony following Clockwork's release, the danceman refused to talk to the director.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: Duck Sauce on March 17, 2003, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: cowboykurtisthey supposedly bumped into eachother at the academy awards and there was some exchange of unpleasant words.

Quote from: MacGuffinWhen Kelly and Kubrick met at an awards ceremony following Clockwork’s release, the danceman refused to talk to the director.

So whats it going to be then eh?
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: ©brad on March 18, 2003, 04:16:18 AM
knowing that kind of spoils it for me b/c singin in the rain works PERFECTLY in the film, esp. when it plays over the end credits- "...what a glorious feeling I'm happy again." you'd like to think they planned to use the song.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: Pubrick on March 18, 2003, 08:53:59 AM
Quote from: cbrad4dyou'd like to think they planned to use the song.
the CRM certifies it as if it were planned since the beginning of time. movies evolve, it's cool like that.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: Holden Pike on May 11, 2003, 08:11:36 AM
Gene Kelly would have nothing to do with the rights to "Singin' in the Rain" anyway, nor would Stanley Donan. That song was an old standard back when it was used for the famous 1952 MGM Musical. Most of those songs were "oldies" then. That's part of the genesis of that project, that to keep the rigts to the old songs, MGM had to use them in a new project immediately. Thus the '20s setting, and all of those tunes fit right into place. "Moses Supposes" and "Make 'em Laugh" were the only two original songs written for Singin' in the Rain. That it tuned out to be one of the greatest Musicals of all tme was really an accident, since the main point of the project originally was to keep the rights to the song catalogue.

(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moviemeter.nl%2Fcovers%2Fimg01110.jpg&hash=7ee0cca914b4fc5cf58c50e3cc13b5b866804545)

So whether or not Gene Kelly approved (and it doesn't surprise me he would have been pissed after seeing Clockwork), it never would have gone through him for permission in any way, legal or otherwise. Even if Singin' in the Rain had been written for the '52 movie, Kelly, as multi-talented as he was (actor, singer, dancer, choreographer, producer, director), he wasn't a songwriter, and the rights still wouldn't have been his to give or deny...unless he had bought them at some point. He certainly had no authorship, just by virtue of his cover of it being far and away the most famous verson. Tha's not how publishing rights work.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: cowboykurtis on May 11, 2003, 10:35:33 AM
Quote from: Holden PikeGene Kelly would have nothing to do with the rights to "Singin' in the Rain" anyway, nor would Stanley Donan.. He certainly had no authorship, just by virtue of his cover of it being far and away the most famous verson. Tha's not how publishing rights work.

when saying kubrick asked gene kelly's "permission", i was not referring to legal rights...rather, asking persmission out of respect for his material. obviously when people think "singin in the rain" they think gene kelly -- no one gives a shit who wrote the song -- so kubrick wanted to clear it with him out of courtesy.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: Holden Pike on May 11, 2003, 04:43:45 PM
So to you, calling for permission could just extend to whoever has used it best, not to who actually owns it? That makes perfect sense.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: MacGuffin on May 11, 2003, 04:50:05 PM
Read again. Kubrick asked for permission both legally and artistically:

Quote from: MacGuffinKubrick immediately looked into obtaining the rights to the song, and discovered that the fee was $10,000 to use it for 30 seconds. Once the rights were in hand, shooting proceeded immediately. Kubrick later invited Stanley Donen, the director of the musical classic, to view his scene and then asked Donen’s personal permission to use the song for the sequence. "He wanted to make sure I wasn’t offended," Donen reports in the biography Dancing on the Ceiling. "Why would I be? It didn’t affect the movie Singin’ in the Rain."
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: cowboykurtis on May 11, 2003, 09:52:55 PM
Quote from: Holden PikeSo to you, calling for permission could just extend to whoever has used it best, not to who actually owns it? That makes perfect sense.

you're not very smart are you? if you actually read my post i said he called gene kelly asking "permission" out of courtesy -- he obviously had to aquire the legal rights as well. it's like asking your girlfriend's father's for his daughter's hand in marraige -- it's out of courtesy -- do you have to legally have the father give away his daughter when getting married? NO...but it's out of respect that one asks. the same with kubrick and gene kelly -- the reason he asked "permission" from kelly is: the song is directly associated with kelly, more so than whoever else may be "creatvely invested" in the song ... i hope this explanation raises your intellect and prevents you from making sarcastic comments in my regard...
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: bonanzataz on May 11, 2003, 10:01:41 PM
Gene Kelly sang the song however, and the recording used was in the production that Stanley Donen produced and directed. That recording belonged to them even if the song rights didn't. A somewhat similar case is that of the Beatles, who refuse to allow their recordings in films but will lend out the song rights to other performers which may be placed in films.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: MacGuffin on May 11, 2003, 10:11:48 PM
Quote from: bonanzatazA somewhat similar case is that of the Beatles, who refuse to allow their recordings in films but will lend out the song rights to other performers which may be placed in films.

Yeah, except that Michael Jackson owns the rights to their songs, and it's not that he doesn't allow them in movies and commercials, it's that they are very expensive and it is much cheaper to do cover versions.

I'll give you the example of Doug Liman wanting to use a portion of the "Jaws" score for a scene in "Swingers". Now, I don't know if it contractual or not, but they had to set up a screening of the film for Spielberg to approve the use of the recording. (It is there where he saw Vince Vaughn and cast him in "Lost World.")
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: bonanzataz on May 12, 2003, 04:46:27 PM
we've had this discussion before. i saw on an i am sam documentary and have read in countless articles that they are extremely protective of the original recordings and won't let them be used anywhere except on radio and in their cd's. it was in an old rolling stone issue, i'm sure i could find it if i looked hard enough.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: MacGuffin on May 12, 2003, 04:58:58 PM
Quote from: bonanzatazwe've had this discussion before. i saw on an i am sam documentary and have read in countless articles that they are extremely protective of the original recordings and won't let them be used anywhere except on radio and in their cd's. it was in an old rolling stone issue, i'm sure i could find it if i looked hard enough.

With I Am Sam, they said how to get the rights to the original recordings would have been more than their entire $8 million budget, so that's why they went with cover versions.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: godardian on May 12, 2003, 05:22:24 PM
Quote from: MacGuffinRead again. Kubrick asked for permission both legally and artistically:

Quote from: MacGuffinKubrick immediately looked into obtaining the rights to the song, and discovered that the fee was $10,000 to use it for 30 seconds. Once the rights were in hand, shooting proceeded immediately. Kubrick later invited Stanley Donen, the director of the musical classic, to view his scene and then asked Donen's personal permission to use the song for the sequence. "He wanted to make sure I wasn't offended," Donen reports in the biography Dancing on the Ceiling. "Why would I be? It didn't affect the movie Singin' in the Rain."

I think it's fantastic that Kubrick asked the director's blessing (not permission, I see there has been some angry confusion over the two concepts), and couldn't care less about the "star."

That's our Stanley!
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: ©brad on May 13, 2003, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: MacGuffin
With I Am Sam, they said how to get the rights to the original recordings would have been more than their entire $8 million budget, so that's why they went with cover versions.

holy crap. rich people suck.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: modage on May 17, 2003, 05:53:59 PM
yeah.  does anyone know the genesis of how Bowling For Columbine was able to use "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" (original recording).  i was pretty shocked to hear it, as i dont think ive ever heard the original recordings in a movie before. (except the beatles movies, of course).  i know that wes anderson wanted to use Hey Jude and some song off revolver although which is escaping me,  to bookend his movie and he tried and tried to get permission and ended up ( i believe because george harrision was dying at the time and couldnt be bothered with clearances) using the instrumental jude and the van morrison song at the end.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: MacGuffin on May 17, 2003, 06:35:10 PM
Quote from: themodernage02i know that wes anderson wanted to use Hey Jude and some song off revolver although which is escaping me

"I'm Looking Through You" and it's on the Rubber Soul album.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: modage on May 18, 2003, 12:13:06 AM
thats right, i had read it a few years ago when the film came out but i couldnt remember for the life of me what it was now.  i knew it was of that era though.  i kind of think the van morrison song works perfectly though, maybe moreso than the beatles one would have.
Title: Gene Kelly vs. Kubrick
Post by: godardian on May 18, 2003, 12:59:16 AM
Quote from: themodernage02thats right, i had read it a few years ago when the film came out but i couldnt remember for the life of me what it was now.  i knew it was of that era though.  i kind of think the van morrison song works perfectly though, maybe moreso than the beatles one would have.

My absolute favorite, though, was finally hearing Nico acknowledged. I love her solo albums, and to hear her voice as Margot steps off the bus in slo-mo... that was such a beautiful moment for me. Nico, Nico, Nico... you were beautiful.

That also has a La Dolce Vita connection for ya there, modernage.
Title: Mrs. Robinson
Post by: pixelnixel on May 30, 2003, 02:41:06 AM
How much of that scene was Kubricks' or McDowells' and do you think Gene Kelly watched it more than once?