Fahrenheit 9/11

Started by Gold Trumpet, April 01, 2003, 09:21:36 AM

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Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: godardianWell, I guess there's no real way to gauge how many minds Michael Moore has changed. But I'm guessing he's preaching to the choir to the same extent or moreso than what you termed the "elite minority" ever has. [

I don't think the success of his book and movie are mutually exclusive. People read his book and then see his movie, see his movie and then read his book. It's because he doesn't isolate himself, and pushes himself into the mainstream (often with violent results), that he's netting a wider audience. People are seeing this guy taking incredible risks for what he cares about, and they're interested. He can stir up the minority, but he can also inspire the disenchanted mass.

Quote from: godardianI guess you and I will just have to disagree on the importance of this nebulous poll-driven thing called "public opinion." Votes are what count (or are the closest thing to an action that counts, anyway), and most people don't vote. Most people don't care.

Okay, we can disagree about that, but how skewed is your perception of politics that you don't appreciate the importance of public opinion? The atmosphere right now is fear-induced cheerleading and perverted patriotic apathy. Isn't the point to change that?

Quote from: godardianWhen you play with pigs, you get dirty.

But he's going into their world as a proverbial media suicide bomber,  playing their game--inserting himself as a polar opposite--only to expose it and exploit it and parody it, and in typical Moore style, to set up an extreme contrast. These are the people that control public opinion, and he can't ignnore them... and he knows exactly how to work within their system without becoming one of them.

SoNowThen

Even though I think Michael Moore is a total ass, I do believe he's talented. And I enjoyed Roger & Me, and found it to be quite a comedy. But to say he's exposing truths, and give him all this credit... I mean, c'mon, anybody can make themselves look "right" if he films for a couple hours, asks pre-determined questions to get certain responses, then cuts them together. The guy's basically a propagandist for the left. Even he admits he skews things to present his version of the truth.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Raikus

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: RaikusIn case you haven't notice, truth holds no value with Moore.

That site is not legit, and we proved its errors and exaggerations here. The site was created by an NRA lawyer. Seriously.

Actually you proved no such thing. But nothing like bringing up a blast from the past, eh? And Oh My God! Was it created by a NRA lawyer?! Holy shit! It must be completely false then.

In the real world that provides it with more validity. It's not just some anti-Moore person with an agenda. It's a paid professional with an agenda that could loose his livelyhood if he is slanderous or false with the information he provides. Just because the other side got their story out doesn't mean it's wrong. What a skewed view you have of the world.
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free, silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands, with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves, let me forget about today until tomorrow.

SoNowThen

Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

godardian

Quote from: Raikus
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: RaikusIn case you haven't notice, truth holds no value with Moore.

That site is not legit, and we proved its errors and exaggerations here. The site was created by an NRA lawyer. Seriously.

Actually you proved no such thing. But nothing like bringing up a blast from the past, eh? And Oh My God! Was it created by a NRA lawyer?! Holy shit! It must be completely false then.

In the real world that provides it with more validity. It's not just some anti-Moore person with an agenda. It's a paid professional with an agenda that could loose his livelyhood if he is slanderous or false with the information he provides. Just because the other side got their story out doesn't mean it's wrong. What a skewed view you have of the world.

NRA people are horribly biased, too. Michael Moore's flaw is acting like he's very, very pure, with no bias and nothing but the best interests of all of us at heart. The NRA- as much as I despise them- are actually more honest than Moore. That's very hard to admit. They're more upfront about their crackpottery. You know what you're getting with them, at least.

That's why I wish the loudest voice on the left didn't seem as gross as the loud voices of the right. I would like to be able to say, "We take the high road. We're more reasonable and rational than those reactionaries on the right." But Moore can be as much of a reactionary loudmouth as Rush Limbaugh. Which is severely depressing.

So depressing, in fact, that I'm going to go read Political Fictions and reassure myself that there are still people who know ideas and dialectical discourse, not just throwing soundbytes out into the void.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: RaikusAnd Oh My God! Was it created by a NRA lawyer?! Holy shit! It must be completely false then.

Well, it makes me think of the website as more of an NRA response and a faithful defense of Charlton Heston... not anything like an independent analysis.

Quote from: RaikusIt's not just some anti-Moore person with an agenda. It's a paid professional with an agenda that could loose his livelyhood if he is slanderous or false with the information he provides.

Okay.. the NRA doesn't have an anti-Moore agenda? And when was the last time anyone lost their job at the NRA for lying?

Quote from: RaikusJust because the other side got their story out doesn't mean it's wrong. What a skewed view you have of the world.

I just have a problem with people not accepting it for what it is, and ignoring the fact that he's a paid mouthpiece.

Quote from: godardianBut Moore can be as much of a reactionary loudmouth as Rush Limbaugh. Which is severely depressing.

I don't think you're right to equate Limbaugh's personality with with Moore's. Rush Limbaugh sits behind a microphone, huffing and puffing, demonizing the "liberal" mass. Has Moore condemned ideology? He's condemned corporate criminals and corrupt politicians, but he's optimistic about the general public, and his attitude towards people is to inspire them and make them act on their intuitions and stand up against what they think is wrong. Two completely different attitudes and personalities.

Try reading Moore's stuff and listening to him. Is everything he says reactionary and loud? I think you're drawing generalizations from his most memorable (and yes, loudmouth) moments.

No one ever backs me up in these debates.  :yabbse-sad:  Where's jmj when you need him?

children with angels

I like Michael Moore. I think what he's doing is a good thing and I'm glad that someone's doing it. I too sometimes have difficulty with the way he presents some of his points of view, but the fact is his points of view are right - as far as I'm concerned... I share the same views as the guy so I forgive him certain moments of over-simplification. What he is saying needs to be said. His view of humanity is spot on in my opinion: he's deeply concerned, well-informed, and most of all: optimistic that things can change. He doesn't claim to have all the answers, and is constantly sending out calls for other poeple to take his torch from him and run with it: he wants to bring people out who might otherwise simply sit at home and bitch about the state of things - get them to actually do something to help...

Yes: he can come accross as obnoxious   (I think he is a little),   self-serving   (he is this only in the sense that by helping himself he can better spread the word to help others)   and arrogant   (it's a sad fact that anyone in a position where they have the power to help others must be somewhat arrogant),   but SO WHAT? Even if he, the person, isn't perfect: at least he's getting out there and making a difference (or trying his hardest to - and he is trying his hardest...), and what he has to say needs to be said. I really don't care a great deal how he does it: that, for me, is an artistic concern rather than a political one.
"Should I bring my own chains?"
"We always do..."

http://www.alternatetakes.co.uk/
http://thelesserfeat.blogspot.com/

joeybdot

Thank god! Finally Somebody will attack Bush instead of the other way around!  Michael Moore Is just a Funny Brilliant Man!  (Bowling For Columbine,Roger and Me,Awful Truth,TV Nation!)

(It You Try Hard Enough And Stare Real Hard You Can Touch The Cleavage!)

godardian

Quote from: joeybdotThank god! Finally Somebody will attack Bush instead of the other way around!  Michael Moore Is just a Funny Brilliant Man!  (Bowling For Columbine,Roger and Me,Awful Truth,TV Nation!)

(It You Try Hard Enough And Stare Real Hard You Can Touch The Cleavage!)

You know, after seeing the black-and-white way some people (not you) on this site see the world, I'm beginning to be more and more inclined to think that Michael Moore, despite his lack of subtlety, actually does do some sort of good somewhere.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Duck Sauce

Quote from: godardian
Quote from: joeybdotThank god! Finally Somebody will attack Bush instead of the other way around!  Michael Moore Is just a Funny Brilliant Man!  (Bowling For Columbine,Roger and Me,Awful Truth,TV Nation!)

(It You Try Hard Enough And Stare Real Hard You Can Touch The Cleavage!)

You know, after seeing the black-and-white way some people (not you) on this site see the world, I'm beginning to be more and more inclined to think that Michael Moore, despite his lack of subtlety, actually does do some sort of good somewhere.

Yeah, but so does Bush

Jeremy Blackman

I'm watching Moore's TV shows on DVD. If you think anything he's done in his movies is exploitative, just watch these. He has a gift for coming up with the most bitter jokes possible (having a guy who needs a new organ give funeral invitations to HMO execs, bringing a voice box choir to tobacco companies on Christmas day). But the more extreme it gets, the more I realize that it can't reach exploitation. These people are doing it voluntarily... they know it's a joke and they are not being tricked or surprise... they're often just as passionate as Moore is... I see him more as an enabler than an exploiter. This is just how he works, and he does it better than anyone. The whole point is to expose the absurd lengths to which people have to go to be heard.

MacGuffin

"Farenheit 911" Gets a Release
 
Earlier this year Michael Moore announced his intention to do a documentary about George W. Bush and his family's link to the bin Laden family. Now in a recent talk with the United Press International, he spoke out more about what his aims with the project are:

"The senior Bush kept his ties with the bin Laden family up until two months after Sept. 11...It [the new project] certainly does deal with the Bush and bin Laden ties, it asks a number of questions that I don't have the answers to yet, but which I intend to find out".

A portion of the doco will deal with the business relationship between former president George Bush and the late Saudi construction magnate Mohammed bin Laden (Osama's father). However overall the main thrust of the film will be examining what has happened to the United States since the Sept. 11 terrorist attack.

The film's french distributors Wild Bunch (outputing through Miramax in the US) are trying to target a world premiere at Cannes but in regards to it's official release, its date will probably be November, 2004... election day.
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

Thecowgoooesmooo

Quote"Farenheit 911" Gets a Release

Earlier this year Michael Moore announced his intention to do a documentary about George W. Bush and his family's link to the bin Laden family. Now in a recent talk with the United Press International, he spoke out more about what his aims with the project are:

"The senior Bush kept his ties with the bin Laden family up until two months after Sept. 11...It [the new project] certainly does deal with the Bush and bin Laden ties, it asks a number of questions that I don't have the answers to yet, but which I intend to find out".

A portion of the doco will deal with the business relationship between former president George Bush and the late Saudi construction magnate Mohammed bin Laden (Osama's father). However overall the main thrust of the film will be examining what has happened to the United States since the Sept. 11 terrorist attack.

The film's french distributors Wild Bunch (outputing through Miramax in the US) are trying to target a world premiere at Cannes but in regards to it's official release, its date will probably be November, 2004... election day.


I can't wait! This will be great entertainment.



chris

MacGuffin

Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
Source: New York Times

The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday.

The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis — including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating.

Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route.

In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: "We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably."

But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies.

"We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax," said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. "That decision stands."

Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's studio, backed out.

Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said that Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.

"Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him," Mr. Emanuel said. "He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved."

Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel.

A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company has the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deems their distribution to be against the interests of the company. Mr. Moore's film, the executive said, is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film could alienate many.

"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.

Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, although such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats.

Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, "At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' "

Mr. Moore's films, like "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine," are often a political lightning rod, as he sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, "Bowling for Columbine," took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like "Stupid White Men," a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative.

Mr. Moore does not disagree that "Fahrenheit 911" is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. "If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine," he said.

Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's decision to help members of the bin Laden family leave the United States immediately after the 2001 attacks. The film includes comments from American soldiers on the ground in Iraq expressing disillusionment with the war, he said.

Mr. Moore initially planned on producing the film with Mr. Gibson's company, but last May it pulled out.

"The project wasn't right for Icon," said Alan Nierob, a spokesman for Icon, adding that the decision had nothing to do with politics.

Miramax stepped in immediately. The company had previously produced one of Mr. Moore's films, 1997's "The Big One." In return for providing most of the new film's $6 million budget, Miramax was positioned to distribute the film.

While Disney's objections were made clear early on, one executive who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Miramax leadership hoped it would be able to prevail upon Disney to sign off on distribution -— which would ideally hoping happen this summer, before the election and when political interest is high.
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

Jeremy Blackman

This should make people very angry.

Quote from: MacGuffinMr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said that Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.
Quote from: MacGuffin"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.
This is what happens when corporations control art. Anything excessively opinionated or outside of mainstream thought is not only marginalized, but captured and disallowed. This episode must be one of the clearest examples of this in recent memory.