Author Topic: Lost (spoilers)  (Read 237576 times)

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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1860 on: November 14, 2012, 06:27:45 PM »
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Absolutely. It may not be the XF movie most people wanted or expected, but it does what the show always excelled at - telling a great story through the use of the Mulder and Scully characters.

I guess it's personal taste, but I disagree. It was a slightly subpar X-Files episode stretched to feature length.

The show was awesome. The last season (at least) was terrible.

Season 6 is actually my favorite season, if that tells you anything.

But the bigger problem for me was that they would bring up a whole host of new ideas and plot threads while conveniently ignoring several big ideas which had previously been treated as significant.

Any examples?

My guess at that is despite the fact Twin Peaks likewise got shit at the end, it did answer the show's central questions: who killed Laura Palmer.

I'd argue that at least the second half of Twin Peaks is bad, not just the end. Excepting the Lynch-directed episodes of course.

Lost never accomplished that, maybe because it was never sure what its central question was in the first place.

If you were to pick one central question from Lost, it's probably "What is the island?" The show answered that thoroughly.

Also, 90% of people completely misunderstood the final episode and thought it meant all the characters had been dead the whole time.

Where are you getting this from? Who on earth would come away with that interpretation after the finale? Let's move that decimal point to the left a bit and say 1%.

The "everyone is dead" / "the island is hell" etc. theories were in circulation long before the final seasons.
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diggler

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1861 on: November 15, 2012, 02:01:39 PM »
+2
My problem with Lost's final season was how it completely nullified the 5th season. I actually quite enjoyed Season 5 (especially the chaotic first half) and Season 6 basically said "all that didn't matter, it's MAGIC!" If they had set up Season 6 better I would've liked it more, if they had continued Season 5's storyline I would've enjoyed that too, but they did neither.
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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1862 on: November 15, 2012, 04:09:14 PM »
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But the bigger problem for me was that they would bring up a whole host of new ideas and plot threads while conveniently ignoring several big ideas which had previously been treated as significant.

Any examples?

Not right now, actually. I didn't realize I was going to stir up a whole Lost debate, so I'm really not prepared for a dissection. I will concede that as several people have pointed out here, it might also have a lot to do with personal taste and hopes for where the show ultimately went. I was never a fan of the whole Jacob business and would have preferred it to have delved deeper into the Dharma Initiative and the island itself. The final season bored me, which is maybe why I don't have the precise example you're asking for. You can strike that up as a point for you.

My guess at that is despite the fact Twin Peaks likewise got shit at the end, it did answer the show's central questions: who killed Laura Palmer.

I'd argue that at least the second half of Twin Peaks is bad, not just the end. Excepting the Lynch-directed episodes of course.

I would certainly agree with you there. I guess I should have been more specific here too - the second half of S2 is really bad.

Also, 90% of people completely misunderstood the final episode and thought it meant all the characters had been dead the whole time.

Where are you getting this from? Who on earth would come away with that interpretation after the finale? Let's move that decimal point to the left a bit and say 1%.

The "everyone is dead" / "the island is hell" etc. theories were in circulation long before the final seasons.

The island is hell/purgatory theories were popular from the first season. When the writers said that wasn't the case, they died down, but it seems a lot of people misunderstood that final episode to mean the writers had actually lied to us and that the characters had actually been dead that whole time. Clearly that's not the case, but there definitely seemed to be a lot of people who arrived at that conclusion after watching the final episode. Yes, my 90% was a speculative exaggeration, but regardless of individual viewers' readings of the episode, it has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion. I was merely attempting to answer Modage's wondering as to why so many people look back with some sort of resentment for Lost. I believe that their (mis)understanding to the finale might have something to do with it. I'm happy to hear your theories on why so many people don't look back on Lost with the same fondness they have for - using the same show Modage used for comparison - Twin Peaks.

So the: "But it's a show about characters, not questions !" is funny. Can you remember interesting things happening between the characters in the last season ? They didn't even try...

You hit the nail right on the head with that. Possibly a reason why I disliked that final season so much. Alright, so that characters were never really written all that wonderfully, but what there was we loved. The final season almost disregarded them in favor of focusing on Jacob, a John Locke who wasn't John Locke, and digging through a kit of additional "island secrets" which they hadn't got around to using so far.

You had to wonder, after answering questions with more questions, and exploring tangential mysteries that had little barring on the main story, did a truly satisfying ending that would blow everyone's mind even exist? I almost fall on the side of thinking that come the last season, they tried to answer too much, and in the end the show fell victim to its own fanboy-perpetuated hype. As viewers we think we crave answers, but what we really crave is the mystery and theorizing and furious online debating. The writers set the bar so high with the sheer badassery of the first couple of seasons, the lofty expectations of fans were always going to be higher than whatever answer was spoon-fed to them come series finale time.

Agree with all of that.

My problem with Lost's final season was how it completely nullified the 5th season. I actually quite enjoyed Season 5 (especially the chaotic first half) and Season 6 basically said "all that didn't matter, it's MAGIC!" If they had set up Season 6 better I would've liked it more, if they had continued Season 5's storyline I would've enjoyed that too, but they did neither.

Maybe this reinforces Cbrad's comment about preferring questions instead of answers, maybe it's further evidence that the final season is a matter of personal taste, but I still think the final scene of the show should have been Jack detonating the bomb.

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1863 on: November 21, 2012, 12:18:25 PM »
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modage

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1864 on: October 02, 2013, 12:17:01 PM »
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Damon Lindelof on Why 'Breaking Bad's' Finale Let Him Say Goodbye to 'Lost' (Guest Column)
10/2/2013 by Damon Lindelof [THR]

A couple of weeks ago, I was asked if I was interested in writing a morning-after response to the Breaking Bad finale. I immediately said yes. I did this for two reasons. One of them I was aware of, the other I was not.

The one I was aware of is pretty rudimentary: I am a huge fan of Breaking Bad and have been a zealot of its Church of Awesomeness for years. It's spectacular TV -- spectacular storytelling -- and I am lucky to have borne witness to it. The opportunity to sing the show's praises one last time was not one I could possibly pass up.

And here's what I was not aware of but am now.

All story is reflective, designed to illuminate its own characters and the themes surrounding them. When a show is as brilliant as Breaking Bad, it's not just about the people we're watching, it's about those watching them. About us. In other words, the better the show, the deeper it forces you to look at yourself. On Sunday night, I took a good long look at myself, and this is what I found staring back …

I agreed to write this piece because I am deeply and unhealthily obsessed with finding ways to revisit the Lost finale and the maddening hurricane of shit that has followed it.

And this morning? I am Walter White. Arrogant. Conceited. Selfish. Entitled. Looking for ways to blame everything and everyone but myself, even though it is perfectly clear the situation I find myself in is of my own making. And here's the worst part: I'm still naive enough to believe I can attain some level of redemption.

Earlier drafts of this piece were a love letter to Breaking Bad. The show was a masterpiece. I listed the reasons why. We all know what they are. The finale? Fantastic. Not a false beat. The scene between Walt and Skyler was as profound as it was satisfying -- and watching Walt run his hand through his sleeping daughter's hair, fully aware that he couldn't do the same to the woman he (once? still?) loved as she stood silently behind him quite literally broke my heart.

Jesse lived. Walt died. All happened as it should have. And that would have been the piece you would have read had I finished it. But …

In the comments section of the piece I did not write, the following sentiment would have been echoed dozens of times over: "What the f--- do you know because you f---ed up Lost?!?" How do I know this? Well, for starters, my Twitter feed was pretty much a unanimous run of, "Did you see that, Lindelof? That's how you end a show."

Three years later, it appears that it is not just enough to love Breaking Bad's finale. You also have to hate ours. Yeah, I know. Waaaaaah for me. I should go cry into my barrels full of money. But I swear to you, I'm not looking for empathy. I'm just looking for a way to stop. And I can't.

Alcoholics are smart enough to not walk into a bar. My bar is Twitter. It's Comic-Con. It's anytime someone asks me to write an article even casually relating to Lost.

And what do I do? I jump at the opportunity to acknowledge how many people were dissatisfied with how it ended. I try to be self-deprecating and witty when I do this, but that's an elaborate (or obvious?) defense mechanism to let people know I'm fully aware of the elephant in the room and I'm perfectly fine with it sitting down on my face and shitting all over me.

And this is how pathetic I've become -- I'm using an opportunity to put Breaking Bad into the pantheon of best shows ever (where it undeniably belongs) to narcissistically whine about the perceived shortcomings of my own work.

God, I hate myself. But isn't that what's expected of me? Don't I have to do that? Is it possible for me to ever comment on anything I love without cheekily winking at the audience and saying, "But what do I know -- after all, I ruined Lost?"

It does bear mentioning that not everyone feels this way. There are fans who actually love the way Lost ended. And I can feel the abuse they've taken for having what has become a wildly unpopular opinion, which only makes me love them more. Unfortunately, these kind souls are vastly overwhelmed by, well, less kind souls. So now what?

I'm sick of myself for continuing to beat this particular drum, so I can't imagine how sick of it you are. If it's unpleasant and exhausting for me to keep defending the Lost finale, aren't you getting tired of hating it? And so … I, like Walter White, want out. To be free. And to grant you the same.

I'd like to make a pact, you and me. And here's your part: You acknowledge that I know how you feel about the ending of Lost. I got it. I heard you. I will think about your dissatisfaction always and forever. It will stay with me until I lie there on my back dying, camera pulling slowly upward whether it be a solitary dog or an entire SWAT team that comes to my side as I breathe my last breath.

And here's my part: I will finally stop talking about it. I'm not doing this because I feel entitled or above it -- I'm doing it because I accept that I will not change hearts nor minds. I will not convince you they weren't dead the whole time, nor resent you for believing they were despite my infinite declarations otherwise.

Let this be our pact. And I'll just have to trust you on this -- I don't have Badger and Skinny Pete pointing lasers at your chests to keep you honest. And the truth is, there's no way everyone is going to read, let alone agree with this deal.

But I'm going to keep my part. I'm done. I'm out. Just one last thing before I go …

I stand by the Lost finale. It's the story that we wanted to tell, and we told it. No excuses. No apologies. I look back on it as fondly as I look back on the process of writing the whole show. And while I'll always care what you think, I can't be a slave to it anymore. Here's why:

I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really … I was alive.
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ono

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1865 on: October 02, 2013, 12:37:06 PM »
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Breaking Bad spoilers:

And just like Walter White, in "death," humility, and finally some sort of redemption.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 01:14:58 PM by Jeremy Blackman »

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1866 on: October 02, 2013, 12:52:26 PM »
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Fucking great: Breaking Bad spoilers in Lost thread.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1867 on: October 02, 2013, 01:22:02 PM »
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I still don't understand what's wrong with the Lost finale. It's essentially perfect.

Maybe the reason Lindelof can't let go of this is that he knows he's right.
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ono

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1868 on: October 02, 2013, 01:44:38 PM »
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Maybe you should not read an article that says "Breaking Bad Finale" if you're so worried about spoilers.  All my post was doing was commenting on said article.  The article was much more egregious.  :roll:

LOST was basically a couple jackasses egotripping about how "cool" this or that is for 4 years (seriously, read some of the season one scripts and marvel at how utterly full of themselves the writers were), bumping off characters for DUIs offscreen (thx, ABC), claiming the conceit that they actually had a plan all along, then trying to wrap it all up with the lamest hippy-dippy nonsense ever conceived when they realized they wrote so many checks their asses couldn't cash.  For two seasons, it was great television.  Even three and four had merits, and five and six had a couple nice moments.  But ultimately it was like grasping at air -- you were left with a handful of nothing.

Drenk

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1869 on: October 02, 2013, 02:13:36 PM »
+2
It's not only the finale. It's the last season.

"Shut up. It's magic."  The mythology of the show was cool. And that was all. Look Claire: she disappears in season 4, we think she's doing something in this magical cabin. She was not. But she's back in season 6. What about the black smoke? Oh, he felt into some light, somewhere. It's magic too. Oh, and x is special, x too, we're all specials! And we travel through time! It's magic! Oh and ghosts are somewhere, whispering. Why? Oh, shut up, it's a magical island! Remember the light? It looked magic, right?

How do you explain a black smoke monster? Someone put him in some light. IT'S MAGIC!



And season 6 is about a different show. A fantasy. All the characters are leading different lives in purgatory. They don't remember their real lives. Except Desmond. But he's special. Desmond can travel through time and remembers his past life because he's special. No reason. He is, so shut up.

Except the flash-purgatory, they do nothing in the island. Seriously. They do nothing. They walk sometimes. Oh, a girl blew up in season 6. It was in a Hurley centric. She just blew up. Like that. Why? It's magic.



And they end up happy with big smiles at a church. The ending was for Lindelof. He wanted them to be happy, to remember the good time they had with the magical island which did stuff because of a light somewhere and the six seasons he wrote for them.

You can't seriously say : "It was about the characters! And the rest was just cool stuff which doesn't make any sense at all!" The story is a whole. You don't have to give answers. But the world you create can't be random magical stuff which happen. Or you should explain why random stuff happen. Or it has to make sense.

Anyway, I like Lindelof. He seems nice. And his article is sweet. But he's not a good writer. Because his stories are full of shit. They're like the women running in the shadow of the falling ship in Prometheus. It looks cool but it's stupid.
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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1870 on: October 02, 2013, 04:24:06 PM »
+2
Damon Lindelof on Why 'Breaking Bad's' Finale Let Him Say Goodbye to 'Lost' (Guest Column)
10/2/2013 by Damon Lindelof [THR]

...quite literally broke my heart.

RIP Damon Lindelof

Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1871 on: October 02, 2013, 04:32:14 PM »
+2
This is a science fiction show, and you're complaining that things are "magical?" Interesting.

Perhaps the issue is that Lost at its heart was stealth science fiction. That's kind of what I love about it. But for many people that was obviously a problem.

What did you guys think the mythologies and the mysteries were leading towards, something firmly grounded in the rational world? Even after you saw the smoke monster in Season 2? Even after they started time traveling?

I found Lost's world-building to be internally consistent to a surprising degree, and I definitely never had a problem with the supernatural elements.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1872 on: October 02, 2013, 05:06:43 PM »
+2
Oh, a girl blew up in season 6. It was in a Hurley centric. She just blew up. Like that. Why? It's magic.

She was carrying the decaying dynamite, which they thoroughly established (beginning at the end of Season 1) was insanely volatile and could explode at any moment (which happened before). They always treated it very delicately, but Ilana was handling it like a normal backpack and even threw some water bottles in there (all seen in the video you posted). It then explodes because she casually sets it on the ground.
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diggler

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1873 on: October 02, 2013, 05:11:41 PM »
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My issue with Lost wasn't it's decision to make it about character in the end, that was set up throughout the series and was a neat misdirect. My issue is with the show's extremely lazy, unintelligent, sentimental approach to the afterlife. For a show that did such a good job navigating around time travel, it sure shit the bed on an afterlife storyline that doesn't hold up to even a minor dissection. Even if I buy the church thing, the sideways world betrays Lost's mission statement that it was all about character by establishing that what happened on the island is the most important thing that happened in these character's lives (poor Aaron). By putting those people (and only those people) in that church, the show acknowledges that the plot it so unceremoniously threw to the wayside was the very reason all of these characters wound up in that church together. That is an incredibly sad, pessimistic ending.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1874 on: October 02, 2013, 05:26:22 PM »
+1
My issue is with the show's extremely lazy, unintelligent, sentimental approach to the afterlife.

None of what we saw was THE afterlife. It was purgatory, transitional, etc. And I actually can't think of a more interesting depiction of purgatory. (Maybe Beetlejuice? No, Inland Empire.)

Even if I buy the church thing, the sideways world betrays Lost's mission statement that it was all about character by establishing that what happened on the island is the most important thing that happened in these character's lives (poor Aaron). By putting those people (and only those people) in that church, the show acknowledges that the plot it so unceremoniously threw to the wayside was the very reason all of these characters wound up in that church together.

Really? I've never heard that interpretation. Unsurprisingly I have a completely different one.

Okay, so you have the soul, and then you have the incarnate person. The sideways world stripped away the incarnations to allow these people to meet each other on a different level, and in some cases to reconcile. Divine resolution... is that not a legitimate function of a purgatory? Makes complete sense to me. I understand if you feel that's too sentimental, but for me it was no problem at all.

That is an incredibly sad, pessimistic ending.

Huh?
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