Apocalypse Now

Started by El Duderino, March 31, 2004, 07:40:06 PM

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Bruce Lee

.....there's nothing uber geek about me or bruce lee

Gold Trumpet

Quote from: MeshYou have to look at the Kilgore scene (and most every scene in Apocalypse Now!) as an examination of yet another flavor of war insanity.  The fact that it's a point made several times should be your first clue that this is the topic of the film: it's insane to get out of the boat if you know you might get attacked by tigers; it's insane to ship Playboy Bunnies into a war-zone full of undersexed GIs; it's insane that that one guy in the trench can grenade a Viet Cong in the dark in a jungle from 100 yards away.....the list goes on and on and on.....The point is that to call Kurtz insane (and to endeavor to kill him for it) in an environment in which everything is insane is, itself, an insane thing to do.

Its just with most of the scenes that do convey that the insanity is further reaching than what you think at the beginning, they do it on a level that feels like it sketching when it could have been deeper. Its not hard for anyone to think surfing during battle is insane. Its not hard for someone to think the Playboy bunny sequence in a war is insane. The effort of great writing feels lacking because most of the times, the effort to convey the insanity on both sides felt marred by a film that was trying to adapt a historical novel and make it "modern" or "hip". Worst, with each scene, they hardly investigate the scene for it to get beyond the stale idea of what it represents. They move on before making it refreshing, imo.

Mesh

Quote from: The Gold Trumpet
Quote from: MeshYou have to look at the Kilgore scene (and most every scene in Apocalypse Now!) as an examination of yet another flavor of war insanity.  The fact that it's a point made several times should be your first clue that this is the topic of the film: it's insane to get out of the boat if you know you might get attacked by tigers; it's insane to ship Playboy Bunnies into a war-zone full of undersexed GIs; it's insane that that one guy in the trench can grenade a Viet Cong in the dark in a jungle from 100 yards away.....the list goes on and on and on.....The point is that to call Kurtz insane (and to endeavor to kill him for it) in an environment in which everything is insane is, itself, an insane thing to do.

Its just with most of the scenes that do convey that the insanity is further reaching than what you think at the beginning, they do it on a level that feels like it sketching when it could have been deeper. Its not hard for anyone to think surfing during battle is insane. Its not hard for someone to think the Playboy bunny sequence in a war is insane. The effort of great writing feels lacking because most of the times, the effort to convey the insanity on both sides felt marred by a film that was trying to adapt a historical novel and make it "modern" or "hip". Worst, with each scene, they hardly investigate the scene for it to get beyond the stale idea of what it represents. They move on before making it refreshing, imo.

Here's a thought:  critique the film based on what it actually is rather than what you think it could have/should have been.  Failing that, at least make some concrete suggestions about what was missing, instead of just saying "it could have been deeper" and "they hardly investigate."

SoNowThen

Quote from: MeshHere's a thought:  critique the film based on what it is rather than what you think it could have/should have been.  Failing that, make some concrete suggestions about what was missing, instead of just saying "it could have been deeper."


:yabbse-thumbup:
Hahahahaha, I've wanted to tell that to all critics from the beginning of time.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Gold Trumpet

Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: The Gold Trumpet
Quote from: MeshYou have to look at the Kilgore scene (and most every scene in Apocalypse Now!) as an examination of yet another flavor of war insanity.  The fact that it's a point made several times should be your first clue that this is the topic of the film: it's insane to get out of the boat if you know you might get attacked by tigers; it's insane to ship Playboy Bunnies into a war-zone full of undersexed GIs; it's insane that that one guy in the trench can grenade a Viet Cong in the dark in a jungle from 100 yards away.....the list goes on and on and on.....The point is that to call Kurtz insane (and to endeavor to kill him for it) in an environment in which everything is insane is, itself, an insane thing to do.

Its just with most of the scenes that do convey that the insanity is further reaching than what you think at the beginning, they do it on a level that feels like it sketching when it could have been deeper. Its not hard for anyone to think surfing during battle is insane. Its not hard for someone to think the Playboy bunny sequence in a war is insane. The effort of great writing feels lacking because most of the times, the effort to convey the insanity on both sides felt marred by a film that was trying to adapt a historical novel and make it "modern" or "hip". Worst, with each scene, they hardly investigate the scene for it to get beyond the stale idea of what it represents. They move on before making it refreshing, imo.

Here's a thought:  critique the film based on what it actually is rather than what you think it could have/should have been.  Failing that, at least make some concrete suggestions about what was missing, instead of just saying "it could have been deeper" and "they hardly investigate."

That can be suych cop out sometimes. Who says I wasn't critiquing the film for what it was? I stand by what I said as legimitate and thoughtful and could almost throw your argument of "hardly dealing with the issue" back in your face.

Mesh

Quote from: The Gold TrumpetWho says I wasn't critiquing the film for what it was?

That'd be me.

Quote from: The Gold TrumpetI stand by what I said as legimitate and thoughtful and could almost throw your argument of "hardly dealing with the issue" back in your face.

Go for it.  I won't be offended.  I'm just trying to raise the level of discussion here.  I put together a reasoned defense of the film as coherent, themed, and more than the sum of its parts.  You just pretty much said it was "superficial," a "ploy," "disjointed," "sketching," "lacking," "stale" but gave little insofar as reasons why or explanation as to what would've made for a better adaptation of the novel or a better version of Coppola's film.  You can't just call an acknowledged classic like AN! "overrated" and expect to get off easily.  I'm trying to make you work for it.

"It could have been deeper...."  How?

"...they hardly investigate the scene for it to get beyond the stale idea of what it represents..."  Examples?

"As much as I cherish Robert Duvall, his character and purpose of his entire scene is a ploy to match the oddity of someone in love with war and surfing, nothing more..." This (and the rest of that paragraph of yours) I already dealt with.

mutinyco

Blah, blah... It's still the second greatest motion picture ever after 2001: A Space Odyssey.
"I believe in this, and it's been tested by research: he who fucks nuns will later join the church."

-St. Joe

Gold Trumpet

Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: The Gold TrumpetWho says I wasn't critiquing the film for what it was?

That'd be me.

That's a dumb argument to even begin. I had ideas about the film you disagreed with, yes, but nothing says its the "I'm right", "you're wrong" argument at all. This is all about interpretation and I am arguing you on your points now.

Quote from: Mesh
Quote from: The Gold TrumpetI stand by what I said as legimitate and thoughtful and could almost throw your argument of "hardly dealing with the issue" back in your face.

Go for it.  I won't be offended.  I'm just trying to raise the level of discussion here.  I put together a reasoned defense of the film as coherent, themed, and more than the sum of its parts.  You just pretty much said it was "superficial," a "ploy," "disjointed," "sketching," "lacking," "stale" but gave little insofar as reasons why or explanation as to what would've made for a better adaptation of the novel or a better version of Coppola's film.  You can't just call an acknowledged classic like AN! "overrated" and expect to get off easily.  I'm trying to make you work for it.

"It could have been deeper...."  How?

"...they hardly investigate the scene for it to get beyond the stale idea of what it represents..."  Examples?

"As much as I cherish Robert Duvall, his character and purpose of his entire scene is a ploy to match the oddity of someone in love with war and surfing, nothing more..." This (and the rest of that paragraph of yours) I already dealt with.

Fair enough.....I'll explain further. In regards to Duvall's entire scene, his character seems defined by his love of surfing in the most insane of situations. The scene hardly ever strays from making comments about how ridiculous this is. Where in another movie, a general who finds love of surfing during war to be acceptable may be just one joke or punch line, Apocalypse Now uses it continually to make the same points. Added upon this the fact that film is being narrated, a tool usually shied away from in other films because its common grievance is that brings the point of the film to the surface, but its use in this film is even worse. When Martin Sheen speaks of Duvall in the light of someone trying to recreate the feeling of home for his soldiers and please them, thats not a statement to give his character further depth, but to sum him up.

The tendency for the film to sum things up continue....such as the point in the film where Sheen visits a battle ground and looks for the officer in charge and a marine confuses him for being the officer in charge. That's a facile comment in the highest regards cause the scene literally has nowhere else to go. The point of lost cause within the war has been made. Then look at the scene where Laurence Fishburne's character has been killed in and coincidentally, a tape is playing of his mother sending him a message about getting home safely. The film forgets that Fishburne's character has been a background character the entire film cause he is used to make the common point that innocence is lost in war.

The film partly feels like it is trying to mass together as many insanities and sufferings of war possible. The problem for me is that in the clutter of all these points, the film never makes them really felt by character analysis. Its a magnificent piece of filmmaking, yes, but a superficial story of character and scene.

MacGuffin

Paramount will release on 8/15 the 2-disc Apocalypse Now: The Complete Dossier, which includes both the original 1979 and the 2001 Redux versions of the film, along with "audio commentaries, rare unseen footage, lost scenes, brand new featurettes, Segments from the Cutting Room Floor, Then & Now retrospectives and more."

"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

Gold Trumpet

No comment about the DVD annoucement, but man, I'm hiding my face at the argument above. I could have written my argument a lot better.

I'm trying harder these days than ever before to be thoughtful and coherent when I say something, but fuck, I really do still have a lot to learn about analysis and writing.

grand theft sparrow

No Apocalypse Now DVD should be called a "Complete Dossier" without Hearts of Darkness.

MacGuffin

Additional details on Paramount's 8/15 release of Apocalypse Now: The Complete Dossier: The 2-disc special collector's edition will include audio commentary on both the 153-minute theatrical edition and the 202-minute Redux edition by director Francis Ford Coppola, 12 never-before-seen segments from the cutting room floor, the lost "Monkey Sampan" scene, Marlon Brando's complete reading of the T.S. Eliot poem The Hollow Men, the Apocalypse Then and Now retrospective featurette, the PBR Streetgang cast reunion featurette, additional never-before-seen featurettes, and more. We're trying to determine if the films will be presented in their correct 2.35:1 aspect ratio. We do know that the discs will be anamorphic widescreen. Audio will be Dolby Digital 5.1 with English and Spanish subs.
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

Pozer

Quote from: The Gold Trumpet on May 15, 2006, 05:14:43 PM
No comment about the DVD annoucement, but man, I'm hiding my face at the argument above. I could have written my argument a lot better.

I'm trying harder these days than ever before to be thoughtful and coherent when I say something, but fuck, I really do still have a lot to learn about analysis and writing.
Don't sweat it, little Trumpet.  That was two years ago.  That's like... half of your life in highschool ago.

Alexandro

Being one of my favorite films, and having seen both versions dozens of times (redux on the big screen three times, and THAT'S what movies are supposed to feel on the big screen, BIG), I must say that I prefer the shorter version. Redux is a more complete film, in terms of content, i mean, it is richer, it expands, is not just alot of self indulgent fat. But at least to me, when actually watching the movie, Redux does kinda drags in the second half...it's an energy thing or something, and that never happened while watching the original version, which is faster...I guess it just have to do with the lenght...

to me, the thought of someone considering apocalypse now to be overrated is inconceibable. even if you don't like it. specially if you're a so called film lover, there's just so many things going on in it, it's a true assault on your senses...at the same time a war epic, a horror film, an ironic tale of hate, a journey to the dark side, a mad film...I don't know...when a person who likes a lot ofdifferent movies just comes out and say "apocalypse now is overrated" it kinda bums me out or something...specially saying that aobut a film with such great directing.

MacGuffin

On the subject of Apocalypse Now today, a lot of you have been asking what aspect ratio the films included in the 2-disc Complete Dossier DVD release will be in. Apparently, some are displeased with the fact that while the films were shot in 2.35:1, they've seldom been released on video at that exact ratio. Confirmation from both Paramount and director Francis Ford Coppola's American Zoetrope indicates that the film's cinematographer, Vittorio Storaro, prefers that Apocalypse Now be exhibited on video at the slightly cropped widescreen ratio of 2.0:1 (as was the case on the previous DVD releases). Coppola agrees with this decision, so that's what you'll get on the DVD. While it wouldn't be our choice, it's hard to argue with the director and DP. Thankfully, however, both versions of the film on the new DVD will be in anamorphic widescreen (unlike some OTHER forthcoming and much-beloved films on disc).

http://www.zoetrope.com/zoe_films.cgi?page=films&action=show_one&film_id=13
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks