Author Topic: Lost (spoilers)  (Read 244143 times)

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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1890 on: October 03, 2013, 05:42:58 PM »
+1
Lost pretended to know its ending, to know the logic of their world, but nothing is really connected. I remember when the writers were saying: "We know the ending since the beginning!"

Can you point to a quote for that? Cause I recall Lindelof & Cuse saying the opposite, that they didn't know exactly where things were going. They even stalled at the beginning of Season 3 (which in my opinion actually produced some of the most intense episodes) because they didn't yet know how many seasons to plan for.

I have heard that they knew what the final scene would be... a mirror image of the first scene... but all that tells you is that Jack dies (or is just super tired).
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©brad

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1891 on: October 03, 2013, 05:46:37 PM »
+1
You guys aren't really doing this but I hate the "they're making it up as they go along" complaint. It shows an ignorance of TV production and the creative process in general. Of course they're making stuff up as they go along, and who cares. If the creators continually write themselves into corners and go on shark jumping sprees then criticize away. But I don't think it's fair to lambast the Lost writers for not having predetermined every beat or even just the ending of season 6 when they were breaking season 3.

Gilligan readily admits he didn't have all the answers to the ending even at very late stages of the game, and that he allowed himself to change course as new ideas came into the room. It seems like a better way to work as opposed to committing yourself to an ending and steadily working your way there. When the Lost guys went on Letterman or whatever and said they wrote the ending in a box and locked it away for a couple seasons as proof they knew what was coming all along, I really wish they would've just said "we have an idea for the ending but it's evolving and we're still working so with all due respect fuck off."


Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1892 on: October 03, 2013, 05:49:48 PM »
0
^ Totally. I meant to add something about that.

Gilligan has been talking a lot in the last several pocasts about organic storytelling, that you do yourself a disservice if you don't let things unfold, especially over 6 seasons.
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Mel

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1893 on: October 03, 2013, 06:31:05 PM »
0
Lost my original comment thanks to browser crash.

My point: Lost had bottle episodes and that is side effect of being on network television.

On other hand tangling of general arc has little to do it. Instead of focusing on existing narratives, writers decided to create new one. We are speaking about show with ensemble cast, which continued introducing new characters till the very end. Effect? Presenting coherent plot became harder, because writers were navigating increasing numbers of narratives. "Omissions, silly plot turns, shortcuts" - they paid this way for mistakes made earlier on. This has little to do with schedule, you can't easily undone what was before. This was long on-going process and not result of 3-4 episodes extra a season compared to cable stations (speaking about later seasons).

Re: "they're making it up as they go along" complaint

I agree. It also shouldn't be used as excuse for writers. Other shows manage just fine (even better, some shows like Deadwood or 24 were famously and literary written on the last minute with often on-set changes to script).

Going back to 24: eight seasons with hiatus in 2008 (seasons 1-6 on air year after year). Still I snatched bad numbers, because according to my calculations it is more like ~100 hours of running time for first six seasons.
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Drenk

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1894 on: October 04, 2013, 10:36:39 AM »
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I didn't use the "they're making it up as they go along" complaint. I wasn't clear, I guess. I gave the example of Babylon 5 as the only show that had a plan, because I was thinking of SF TV shows. But I know TV show, and creation a little, I know how things make sense as you go along...

I said : look at Battlestar Galactica, another show with mysteries: they were making it us as they went along. But it was good because the world was consistent. Lost gave me the impression that they didn't respect what they had created. They add stuff. Never look back. They don't at the end: season 5 and 6. Season 3 was great because they looked back.
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MOGWAI

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Re: Lost (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1895 on: October 04, 2013, 01:43:12 PM »
0
I know there's a SPOILER tag on this thread but I'd like to warn people who haven't seen the show. SPOILERS:

My favourite episodes, one of each season:

Season 1 - The Moth (Charlies goes cold turkey)



Season 2 - The Long Con (Sawyer's the name!)



Season 3 - The Brig (Sawyer finally gets his revenge on his parents killer)



Season 4 - The Constant (Desmond goes bozo. Shit gets weird. This is hands down the best episode ever made of Lost. The editing (you'll see why) here is impeccable.)



Season 5 - The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham (Locke's final days)



Season 6 - The end (Epic!)


Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (Spoilers)
« Reply #1896 on: June 04, 2016, 02:06:03 AM »
+2
Starting to re-watch Lost. I might post a few observations here.

I had a bit of an epiphany watching "Walkabout" since I've never actually re-watched Season 1 before. The smoke monster's mechanical sound is totally based on Locke's adding machine! (See below.)

This is the same episode where Locke sees the smoke monster for the first time. And where Jack sees his dad for the first time. Canonically, both are MiB. Makes you wonder. Smokey manifests Jack's inner thoughts, so who's to say it hasn't simply taken on this sound that is undoubtedly in Locke's head?


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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1897 on: June 12, 2016, 01:12:04 AM »
0
"House of the Rising Sun" is the first bad Lost episode, and it may stand out as one of the very worst. Coming after the legendary pilot and three superb episodes, it's actually kind of shocking.

The writing is atrocious, from dialogue to character motivations to pacing... just everything. It was written by Javier Grillo-Marxuach, who has written for Helix and The 100, so that makes sense. But he also wrote "All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues," which I remember liking, so we'll see if that holds up.

Everything surrounding Kate and Jack's "flirtation" is inorganic and super cringey. Kate asking Jack about his tattoos. Charlie (wholly out of character) using a bee pun to tell Kate he thought she had C-cup breasts, and Jack smirking. Obviously the bee hive scene was written just to get to that supremely dumb moment, and to get Jack and Kate to take their shirts off. Elsewhere, Kate asks Jack if he's checking her out; it's oppressively awkward, then made worse as they try to weave in Jack's argument about moving to the caves. Nothing feels natural. Truly embarrassing.

I haven't even touched on Sun's flashbacks, which are cliche-ridden and similarly devoid of any naturalism. ("I don't want to elope with you!") It always struck me as odd that Sun has almost no reaction to receiving the puppy. Jin's behavior on-island is perhaps most problematic of all. Michael is wearing this watch that he found and obviously has no idea about its familial significance. Jin reacts like a psychotic version of an Asian stereotype. He has been severely dishonored or something, so he snaps and legit tries to kill Michael, halfway drowning him, then calling him a thief. (A thief because he found a watch in the wreckage? Okay then.)

Matthew Fox comes out of this relatively unscathed. He somehow actually sells this garbage line: "Kate, how did you get to be this way? Just what is it that you did?"

Sun's flashback at the airport at the end works quite well, so I'm going to assume that's Lindelof. Same with Adam & Eve. You can sort of feel his hand coming into the episode when we touch on key pieces of the mythology.

But then we get a montage with distractingly on-the-nose Willie Nelson lyrics, ending the episode with a flourish of cringe. Things can only improve from here.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1898 on: June 14, 2016, 10:53:54 PM »
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Holy cripes, "Confidence Man" is good! Best episode since the pilot. Yes, better than "Walkabout." It's so densely character-driven and so smart. No coincidence that it was written by Lindelof; it's like he saw "House of the Rising Sun" and was like, what, no... alright you guys, this is how you write an episode of Lost.

The work done in these 43 minutes seems to occupy 2 or 3 episodes in my memory. So many characters and character relationships come to life in this one episode. Sawyer (obviously), Sayid (torture stuff and self-exile), Shannon and Boone (a relationship that's revealed to be so affectionate and devoted that you can almost feel the seed of incest being planted here), Charlie and Claire (imaginary peanut butter), Jack (uncomfortable with the torture after 10 seconds), Kate (already figuring Sawyer out), Sun (with her Eastern medicine).

Throughout the episode, so much is accomplished with just a glance here and an expression there. Like the look exchanged between Sun and Jin after he sees her treating Shannon. (She's getting involved with the group, and he's grappling with that, cause maybe it's a good thing, etc.)

My favorite moment: Kate kisses Sawyer, then he says "I don't have it." My jaw dropped. (The benefit of only have seen this once.)

Lindelof's dialogue for Sawyer is so delicious and sharp. He totally refined (even arguably re-created) the character with this one episode.

Bonus: the flashbacks are tastefully brief.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1899 on: July 15, 2016, 12:00:18 AM »
+1
Really enjoying the rewatch right now. I'm rating each episode as I go, so I'll post that at some point.

Season 1 starts strong with the pilot, followed by 3 very good episodes, but then things get shockingly inconsistent. After "Walkabout," I would say "Confidence Man" is the only real gem for a stretch of 12 episodes. Maybe the weakest block in the show's history. (Although I'm sure there's something in Season 2 that rivals it.)

However, once "...In Translation" arrives (117), it's like the show suddenly finds its emotional core. Then you get 3 more fantastic episodes, consistently powerful and on-point, culminating with "Do No Harm." The energy from that story even carries over to the next episode, like it can't be contained. Two episodes later, the Season 1 finale begins.

I feel pretty good about my initial experience of the show, which seems to track with the actual quality of the episodes. The show almost lost me mid-season, but my God does it come roaring back in the last stretch, and that's when Lost really hooked me.

I think Season 1 feels better in general, even the average episodes, when you're not worrying about the hatch and the mystery of the island 90% of the time. On my first watch of Season 1, I had very little patience for the flashbacks. "Why does this matter? Get back to the island!" But now the flashbacks read as less cheesy and more meaningful. You can even choose to see the characters' stories through Jacob's eyes. Why do they need the island? Why does the island need them? (A sentiment that's actually precisely encapsulated by Jack's wedding vows in "Do No Harm.")
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1900 on: July 23, 2016, 11:56:30 PM »
+1
As John Locke might say, I believe in destiny.

"Exodus (Part 3)" — Season 1 finale — was directed by Jack Bender. Hurley, barely making his flight, yells: "Hold the door! Hold the door!"

Jack Bender also directed that episode of Game of Thrones (and is now Emmy-nominated for it).
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1901 on: July 24, 2016, 12:33:57 AM »
+1
Finished re-watching Season 1. I kept some brief notes and rated each episode. Pasting from my Google Doc...



101   Pilot (Part 1)   9.8      
Just as great as I remember. The show emerges fully-formed.

102   Pilot (Part 2)   9.3      
The Losties go on their first mission.

103   Tabula Rasa   8.4      
Kate's first flashback. Very good performance from Evangeline Lilly.

104   Walkabout    8.8      
Excellent, but doesn't quite live up to its reputation. Not subtle.

105   White Rabbit
   8.2      
Jack struggles with leadership. Friends are made. Locke talks about fate and magic. Jack find water and delivers the "live together, die alone" speech.

106   House of the Rising Sun   5.5      
Garbage writing. Cringey dialogue suggesting a Kate/Jack romance. Sun's flashbacks are cliche-ridden. The watch plot is nonsensical.

107   The Moth   8.3      
Charlie is going through withdrawl, gains acceptance and meaning. A little cheesy but actually very moving.

108   Confidence Man   9.1      
Best episode since the pilot!

109   Solitary   8.2      
Mysteries introduced: What is the infection? Sayid hears whispers.

110   Raised by Another   8.4      
Ethan. Claire's psychic. Starting to get a real mythology vibe now.

111   All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues   8.2      
The search for Claire stretches a bit. Unsubtle writing. Elevated by the performances and a few great moments. Hatch surface is found.

112   Whatever the Case May Be   6.0      
Some dumb Sawyer dialogue. Generally weak writing. Dumb reveal of the plane. Ends with a stupid prayer, then an awkward French song.

113   Hearts and Minds   7.8      
Shannon and Boone's step-incest.

114   Special   5.4      
Walt's backstory & powers. Really awful expository dialogue. Shockingly bad CGI polar bear. Contender for worst episode ever.

115   Homecoming   8.4      
Kinda boring, but actually underrated. Written by Lindelof. Sweet, redemptive ending.

116   Outlaws   8.3      
Best Kate/Sawyer bonding of Season 1. Sawyer's flashback is okay.

117   ...In Translation   9.1      
Lost finds its emotional core. This feels like a huge step forward.

118   Numbers   9.6      
Super fun and thought-provoking.

119   Deus Ex Machina   8.6      
A little angsty.

120   Do No Harm   9.4      
Totally powerful and on-point. Amazing performance by Matthew Fox.

121   The Greater Good   7.9      
Treading water. Sayid's flashback is lacking. But Jack's content is powerful. And some cute stuff. Exciting cliffhanger.

122   Born to Run   8.6      
Good ep. Kate tells Michael it's dangerous to bring Walt on the raft. Solid hatch content. Great acting. A decent "who poisoned Michael?" mystery.

123   Exodus (Part 1)   9.2      
Stunning performances throughout. Not much plot movement, though.

124   Exodus (Part 2)   9.4      
Some really classic moments.

125   Exodus (Part 3)   10.0      
Smoke monster appears — show goes full supernatural. Locke says "the island brought us here." Mythology begins. Last 10 minutes are total perfection.




In order of favoriteness:

10.0   125   Exodus (Part 3)
9.8   101   Pilot (Part 1)
9.6   118   Numbers
9.4   124   Exodus (Part 2)
9.4   120   Do No Harm
9.3   102   Pilot (Part 2)
9.2   123   Exodus (Part 1)
9.1   108   Confidence Man
9.1   117   ...In Translation
8.8   104   Walkabout
8.6   119   Deus Ex Machina
8.6   122   Born to Run
8.4   103   Tabula Rasa
8.4   110   Raised by Another
8.4   115   Homecoming
8.3   107   The Moth
8.3   116   Outlaws
8.2   105   White Rabbit
8.2   109   Solitary
8.2   111   All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues
7.9   121   The Greater Good
7.8   113   Hearts and Minds
6.0   112   Whatever the Case May Be
5.5   106   House of the Rising Sun
5.4   114   Special
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1902 on: August 07, 2016, 10:18:46 PM »
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What the F. On Netflix, Lost Season 2, Episodes 1 through 13 have audio sync problems to varying degrees. Some are really bad. Looks like they fixed it with Episode 14 and apparently never noticed the problem or didn't care to fix that entire slew of episodes.

https://www.netflix.com/watch/70122799?trackId=14170289&tctx=0%2C6%2C8d71672e-9b7e-48c2-b38e-938c829c3405-1736265

^ Season 2, Episode 7, go to 19:00 for a good example. This is really dumb. There's not even a 1080p copy of Season 2 on the internet. I guess I should buy the bluray, but this is my least favorite season.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1903 on: August 19, 2016, 03:48:43 PM »
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Okay, Season 2 is a lot better than I remember. I must have been frustrated by how slowly they begin to encounter the Others. But upon rewatch, these episodes are just filled with scenes and moments that feel emblematic of the show as a whole. "Classic" is the word that keeps coming to mind.

The plot stretching is real, but in a way that reflects the Losties' own uncertainty. A sense of doom always lingers; this is probably the scariest season. The storytelling is stronger, too — there's more subtlety and upending of expectations.

Less than a handful of S2 episodes are actually bad. Sometimes I will not be sold or will feel like an episode was somewhat pointless, then it will have an explosively rich ending, a final 5-10 min that just blows me away ("The Whole Truth," for example). It's hard to even judge that as one episode.

Certainly there's nothing like the bad episodes in Season 1 that leave you wondering if they needed to exist. It's never been clearer to me that Season 1 is the weakest.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Lost (spoilers)
« Reply #1904 on: November 18, 2016, 02:33:07 PM »
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Sometimes a Lost episode gets the characters just perfectly right. "Something Nice Back Home" (410) is one of those episodes.

This one took me by surprise on rewatch, because it packed a punch that it didn't necessarily have the first time. It's like the emotional weight of the whole series is falling on Jack & Kate's shoulders here. The span of time encompassed in the episode coalesces all of that emotion in a masterful way. It's intense.

We see Jack & Kate at the height of their fraught devotion to each other both on and off island. In the flash forward, Jack visits Hurley and sees a ghost or two, and then the cracks immediately start forming. You can basically see that the truth ("we have to go back!") is buried inside Jack, slowly beginning to eat him alive. Just as the island didn't want him to leave in this episode (appendicitis), the island won't let him have a happy life in Los Angeles.

Here's a highlight, although I think the minutes before this are even better:


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