The Master - Spoiler-Free Thread

Started by MacGuffin, December 02, 2009, 10:12:15 PM

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Gold Trumpet

I definitely believe it would suck for the filmmaker in question, I also just don't care. This convo needs to die.

Gittes

The point is, it's not that easy to put it in black and white terms as no one here really has access to the facts when it comes to how PTA feels about this. Also, in case people haven't noticed, I haven't placed myself on one side or the other... I simply think there's room for debate, as opposed to unequivocal declarations that rule out any other possibilities or nuances.

Derek

Quote from: Gold Trumpet on March 29, 2010, 02:45:11 PM
I definitely believe it would suck for the filmmaker in question, I also just don't care. This convo needs to die.

For once, I agree. People are talking like he's gonna come to your house and say any chance at being your friend is lost forever.
It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none. None more black.

Captain of Industry

We could go back and never have this conversation, if only we had a Hot Tub Time Machine.

Alexandro

i love debating. Why don't we debate dreyer's films? they're more interesting than this.

The Perineum Falcon

Quote from: Amnesiac on March 29, 2010, 03:05:13 PM
The point is, it's not that easy to put it in black and white terms as no one here really has access to the facts when it comes to how PTA feels about this. Also, in case people haven't noticed, I haven't placed myself on one side or the other... I simply think there's room for debate, as opposed to unequivocal declarations that rule out any other possibilities or nuances.
The issue with the "debate" is that, it seems, you weren't actually looking for any definitive answers here, you were merely playing devil's advocate, which becomes incredibly frustrating when it's been carried on for as long as this has.

Yes, you're right, NO ONE KNOWS HOW PTA FEELS ABOUT THIS. You should've known that from the beginning, and if that's what you were looking for, then you've wasted your own time too.

In more general terms: in reading something that wasn't designed to be read by "you," are there any moral or ethical problems that would argue against doing so? Yes, but these are defined, ultimately, by your own personal sense of ethics and morals. Reading an early draft is akin to reading an artist's journal or diary (in my opinion), and would probably be frowned upon by said artist. But why bother with this mode of speculation? Is PTA going to personally assault you for reading the draft? Are you going have to answer to a higher power for this? Probably not. Ever. So why worry about it so much? If you want to read it, read it; if not, leave this to those who do.
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Gittes

Quote from: Derek on March 29, 2010, 03:10:40 PM
Quote from: Gold Trumpet on March 29, 2010, 02:45:11 PM
I definitely believe it would suck for the filmmaker in question, I also just don't care. This convo needs to die.
For once, I agree. People are talking like he's gonna come to your house and say any chance at being your friend is lost forever.

Really?

Quote from: The Perineum Falcon on March 29, 2010, 03:57:07 PM

Yes, you're right, NO ONE KNOWS HOW PTA FEELS ABOUT THIS. You should've known that from the start, and if that's what you were looking for, then you've wasted your own time too.

I don't really regret taking a small amount of time to intermittently take issue with/discuss the fact that some are trying to make this about strictly one thing, when it could be many things. I initially brought this up as a curious, 'I wonder...?' and people placed really strict parameters around that wondering and I found that a bit too narrow. This issue doesn't lend itself to definitive answers but some interesting speculation could, and I think did, take place. People also got aggressive from the start, which I thought was unnecessary. But since the general consensus is that this whole conversation is quite unnecessary or not compelling enough, let's move on.

Quote from: The Perineum Falcon on March 29, 2010, 03:57:07 PM
In more general terms: in reading something that wasn't designed to be read by "you," are there any moral or ethical problems that would argue against doing so? Yes, but these are defined, ultimately, by your own personal sense of ethics and morals. Reading an early draft is akin to reading an artist's journal or diary (in my opinion), and would probably be frowned upon by said artist. But why bother with this mode of speculation? Is PTA going to personally assault you for reading the draft? Are you going have to answer to a higher power for this? Probably not. Ever. So why worry about it so much? If you want to read it, read it. If not, leave this to those who do.

To be clear, I wasn't looking for a justification for reading it or trying to clear myself of any compunction. I knew I wasn't going to read it from the start.

children with angels

I like Amnesiac - he's earnest and classy. Amnesiac: you're earnest and classy!
"Should I bring my own chains?"
"We always do..."

http://www.alternatetakes.co.uk/
http://thelesserfeat.blogspot.com/

Gold Trumpet

In Amnesiac's defense, this board has been gluttonous before with talking anything and everything about Paul Thomas Anderson. This conversation isn't out of character. It's the happy overreaching smoke before the hype storm of a new PTA film.

Gittes

And here I was thinking I was overstaying my welcome already.

Gold Trumpet

Quote from: Amnesiac on March 29, 2010, 04:16:05 PM
And here I was thinking I was overstaying my welcome already.

Sincerity in argument is a hard thing to find so definitely stick around. And if you ever feel like you're being picked on, don't take it personal or think you're being isolated. Some of us have extensive histories of being the board's bitch for different things.

Pubrick

amnesiac, since you keep pointing to "some ppl" i will hav to respond directly to you now.. realise tho, that i hav only said what Alexandro said and now perineum falcon. they havn't said any new information but you hav conceded the irrelevance of your indulgent "argument" because the numbers hav stacked up. you don't seem to have understood the point, you are just responding to the fact that a bigger number disagrees with you so you don't have the same ppl egging you on.

GT is wrong. others have been indulgent but this has taken it to ridiculous extremes of self-dellusion not seen since the "no score" fiasco of CMBB.

i'm posting this even tho Perineum eerily echoed my statements while i was writing it.

Quote from: Amnesiac on March 29, 2010, 03:05:13 PM
The point is, it's not that easy to put it in black and white terms as no one here really has access to the facts when it comes to how PTA feels about this. Also, in case people haven't noticed, I haven't placed myself on one side or the other... I simply think there's room for debate, as opposed to unequivocal declarations that rule out any other possibilities or nuances.

was that your point the whole time??? that nothing can ever be known for sure about anything? if that was your grand point then it's even CLEARER that there was nothing to debate.

you seem to think that there was grounds for a theoretical argument about the possibility of different interpretations. my simple point, which has been reiterated by others, was that a leaked script is not what a filmmaker intended. the counter argument that you and your supporters offered was that he might be flattered! like it mattered! then someone said that everything is spoiled eventually, with trailers and even the story is spoiled when it's adapted from a book -- those things are not a point! those things are meant to be seen.. it is assumed by the filmmaker that some ppl hav read the book that is being adapted.. it is assumed by the filmmaker that some ppl will watch the trailer.. that's the whole point of an advertisement.. but it is not assumed by a fiilmmaker that anyone outside the cast and crew would ever read the SCREENPLAY before release. just like no one is supposed to watch a film that isn't yet FINAL CUT.

you seem to think that a filmmaker (see how i'm not saying PTA, i'm speaking it general terms cos i'm not crazy, also notice that at no point have i said "if I was PTA... oh if only i was PTA then i would... when i'm PTA and i have fans looking at my scripts this is what i'll think".. again, i'm not crazy, that's why i am not saying that) would be happy to have the a ROUGH CUT OF THE FILM shown and leaked for everyone to download. forget who's watching. again there's nothing wrong with VIEWING that leak because the internet is free for everyone except china, but how can anyone in their right mind believe that the filmmaker would be anything but NOT HAPPY that his film has been leaked. this is the same thing. it doesn't matter what you imagine PTA is thinking right now, he doesn't have a twitter account, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't even want to tell you what HE thinks.. yes we are alone in the universe (your next great insight?)

i cannot imagine that the above example, along with what alexandro said, is not conclusive enough to explain why your argument is dead in the water. it simply doesn't matter that no one knows and it sure as hell doesn't matter what you imagine in place of anyone knowing.. i'm now going to explain a mature concept:

simply because somethings are not known for certain, it does not mean that everyone's speculation is of equal merit. it doesn't mean that anyone can just fantasise about being pta which is what you have all been doing - to the utter embarrassment of the rest of us - because you can't even fathom that in cases where nothing is known for certain (always) it takes a logical mind to assess the PROBABILITY and LIKELIHOOD of certain outcomes, there is such thing as plausibility. and in this case there is one position that is much more plausible than the others. PLAUSIBILITY.. you skipped this simple thought because you and others wanted to keep fantasising. you actually think that your idea of what a great artist thinks is not only relevant but actually has a chance of being right. i'm sorry to be the one to tell you this but from what you have all said so far in this thread you are NOT great artists.

this "debate" has been nothing more than a sickening display of self-dellusion. you hav acted as if you've never read a leaked script before, you and your supporters seem to me like a flock of headless chickens running around in an echo chamber of self-aggrandizing thoughts.. it would be extremely depressing if it weren't for the flicker of hope that has finally emerged in this page.

and yes, some ppl are kinder than me, and less "aggressive". that doesn't affect the truth of what i'm saying,
under the paving stones.

children with angels

Cut the guy some slack. It always seemed more like idle curiosity than an attempt at "great insight". Seriously - this is not the way to bring in new blood.
"Should I bring my own chains?"
"We always do..."

http://www.alternatetakes.co.uk/
http://thelesserfeat.blogspot.com/

Pubrick

he mischaracterized my posts for the benefit of his useless agenda. i am just responding. if new blood wants to step up on such shitty foundation then they should be ready for that shitty foundation to be pointed out. especially if their "idle curiosity" turns into several pages of baseless argument.

maybe i went overboard since everyone else on this page has already eviscerated his empty argument in a nicer way. i respect you though, and if you want to play mediator then i'll back off now that i've said my piece.
under the paving stones.

Pozer

LOL. caught these last two comments in latest update at PT site:

Anonymous said...
This may be a long shot, but do you have any clue how PTA feels about the script being leaked?
March 27, 2010 10:44 PM

Anonymous said...
http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=10940.msg289297#msg289297
March 28, 2010 6:48 PM