Xixax Film Forum

The Director's Chair => Paul Thomas Anderson => Topic started by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 11:12:39 AM

Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 11:12:39 AM
This is a bit weird, but it's something I'm interested in, and would like to hear all your thoughts...

this is a quote from that essay in the summer reading thread:
"In the scene just following the one wherein Jimmy and Rose are figuring out "how to do this," Claudia, their daughter, whom we suspect has been molested by her father as a child, says to her date, Jim Kurring, "let's not lie, let's not be those people who have no guts to say what is real, let's make a deal not to do that stuff that maybe we've done before...." It is a deal to learn from the past, and then to let it go: that is the structure of Magnolia's lesson in how to do good. Help others--Learn from your mistakes--Don't do what you already know is wrong. Of course, as simple as it sounds, it is not so easy. As soon as Jim and Claudia agree to enter into this brave new world, Claudia says something that shocks Jim, she apologizes, he apologizes, "I didn't mean...," "Sorry," "No, I'm sorry," and they back away, retreat into their safety zones. This retreat seems safer, more comfortable, because it risks nothing--this is how we all tend to live. "

I think this is a great breakdown of this scene (one of my fav scenes ever). Now my question is this: do you think PTA planned all this out beat by beat with motivated progressions and logical decisions in an almost mathematical process to achieve the best "drama"... or do you think he was welled-up with emotion and just sat down and banged the scene out as it came, then gave it to some amazing actors who made it sing?

I guess what I'm saying is, when I write, sometimes I figure out a scene as I described in the first example. Everything is planned down to a spot, every word is weighed, and over-thought to death. Sometimes this workshopping can produce some very intelligent scenes that hold a movie together. But sometimes I just do the second example, and do one write-through as it comes into my head, and never re-write it. This almost never works, and most of these have to be thrown out. But the ones that do work... they're light years better than anything else.

So does PTA have this all balanced out, or is that just the critics picking something apart and giving reasoning to it, when he did something instinctively?
Title: Scene construction
Post by: chainsmoking insomniac on July 24, 2003, 11:20:57 AM
We may never know man.  My gut tells me he vomited this scene out, just an outpouring of things he was feeling at the time...but even if I'm wrong, who really cares?  The end result is what it is, and it's so beautiful.  
I really like the way she broke that scene down also, this essay is just fucking great to read.  I thought it was funny how she cited all these critics fumbling over what to make of Magnolia...one critic reduced it to a movie about SOUND. I like when she basically says Magnolia is a movie where the end result isn't a traditional conclusion, but a basket of emotions that leave the audience to draw their own conclusions.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: subversiveproductions on July 24, 2003, 11:50:47 AM
man, i'm struggling with this same thing right now.  i'm working on a script that is very personal and emotional, but at the same time, i'm trying to measure out each scene and connect all of these various threads so that they have the maximum impact and meaning without spelling everything out in some cheesy monologue or something.  i come against this same conflict in literature all the time.  as you read something several times you uncover all of these various layers of meaning, and i've always struggled with trying to figure out whether the writer intended to provide all of these layers, or if that's just the reader interpreting a story through their own "filter" of personal experience and what not.

we would always bring this up to one of my english teachers in high school who was really big on analyzing rhetorical devices to lend further meaning to a reading, and he would always say the same thing: "whether they intended for this to have any meaning or not is irrelevant.  the important thing to realize is that it does have meaning and to learn to incorporate that into your own writing (or filmmaking.)"

-jesse
Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 12:10:10 PM
Hmm, what I wanna get at is not whether we should care about how he did it, but how should we do it...

Should we try and pepper every single scene with beat after beat of thought-out-planned-out connectors, or just write from the heart, hope it's good, and let the critics pick it apart and explain it?

I especially wonder how JD Salinger did it in Catcher, because the more i read it, the more I find things... but did he consciously put them there, or did they come out of the beauty of his work, rather than him pre-planning to put them into his work...?
Title: Scene construction
Post by: chainsmoking insomniac on July 24, 2003, 12:24:59 PM
Quote from: SoNowThenHmm, what I wanna get at is not whether we should care about how he did it, but how should we do it...

Should we try and pepper every single scene with beat after beat of thought-out-planned-out connectors, or just write from the heart, hope it's good, and let the critics pick it apart and explain it?

I especially wonder how JD Salinger did it in Catcher, because the more i read it, the more I find things... but did he consciously put them there, or did they come out of the beauty of his work, rather than him pre-planning to put them into his work...?

This is the predicament, IMO.  Or deeper still, do we gauge our writing on what the critics will think later on?  Should it even matter?  P.T. had to have known that critics would attack Magnolia...he must have been aware (judging from the current fare of cinema at the time) that his baby was very unconventional and controversial, right?  So I think it boils down to passion, man.  Plain and simple.  Leave the majority of analytical thinking to those fucking critics, who don't write anything from the heart anyway. :)
Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 12:29:46 PM
oh, don't get me wrong, I like it when critics spell things out like that. I enjoy reading a well thought out critical analysis. But it's funny, when they point out to a writer the themes of his work, he is usually surprised by what they find. I guess I think it's mostly subconscious, at least on some level...
Title: Scene construction
Post by: chainsmoking insomniac on July 24, 2003, 12:32:17 PM
Definitely.  And I wouldn't confuse the girl who wrote this essay with 'critics'.  She's taking apart his work, in-depth, and drawing very insightful conclusions, whereas the critics who's comments she cited merely glanced at this film, and didn't take time to take it apart level by level.  That's in my humble opinion, anyway.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: Newtron on July 24, 2003, 01:05:42 PM
Did no one do English in school?

It's simple structure, introduce and expand. In narrative form what occurs, according to the ambition of the writer, is less mechanically structured than driven by the instinct of the writer. This instinct is not so far removed from technical skill in thematic balancing that it needs to be separated from what you identify as mathematical precision. Basically, in this case, PTA must obviously have a great understanding of what's going in the story, and being faced with a three-hour epic to keep alive, he structured it in a way that would create a multitude of layers and relationship not only within each scene but between them. Like all good movies are supposed to do.

What you're pointing out is good writing. If you don't know what you're writing about, or how to write about it, this attempt to intellectualize a natural process is going to quickly make a mimic out of you.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 01:15:36 PM
This is what I'm asking -- what makes truly great writing? Must one understand why one does every little thing, or can one trust taste and instinct  to the point where the writing will take itself to a new level?

Because some of the shit that the greats put into their work is pointed out by some wonderful critics, and the writer himself was not aware that such threads were there. Upon being pointed out he will agree that they certainly are there, but that he was not consciously aware of them at the time of writing.

I'm not trying to figure out a formula here, I'm just musing...


EDIT: also, I was thinking about this because certain things work better or worse given the medium. You can make some wonderful observations about people in an article, but those same observations might be boring in a film because of the need for some kind of drama or conflict. So sometimes we have to take a scene that we write that we know is good, and cut or change it to better serve the story, thus making the process mathematical, in terms of balancing things out and weighing what is needed and logically creating it. I equate this to have really great deleted scenes in a film.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: md on July 24, 2003, 01:51:52 PM
write from the gut

then iron it out

a great man once told me that it is impossible for the director to show truth within a scene, he can only guide the viewer to find the truth within himself
Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 01:53:55 PM
Quote from: mda great man once told me that it is impossible for the director to show truth within a scene, he can only guide the viewer to find the truth within himself

I like that very much.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: jokerspath on July 24, 2003, 03:31:39 PM
In David Rabe's notes on his play Hurly Burly (a brilliant piece of writing, and a damned good film in my opinion) he talks about how he wrote it out and found the meanings and themes later, which really dissapointed me.  Then again, it is possible his subconcious[sp] has him writing seemingly random scenes or dialogue because there is an inherent structure and logic to it all.  Its a very tricky subject...

aw
Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 24, 2003, 03:35:03 PM
that's great that he admitted it, though.

'cause I'm thinking maybe I'm hurting my writing by forcing myself to constantly think every single thing through before I write it.

same with my directing (through visual choices). I think especially my directing...
Title: Scene construction
Post by: jokerspath on July 24, 2003, 03:39:06 PM
Quote from: SoNowThenthat's great that he admitted it, though.

'cause I'm thinking maybe I'm hurting my writing by forcing myself to constantly think every single thing through before I write it.

same with my directing (through visual choices). I think especially my directing...

I guess I would just try to achieve a happy medium: natural, thoughtful progressions with layered meaning(s).  Ambiguity can be good, but overdone, heavy-handed symbolism and all that can just totally show you as being a phony writer.  Unless you do it well I guess...

aw
Title: Scene construction
Post by: atticus jones on July 24, 2003, 08:22:44 PM
there is form................................there is freedom

in form you remind others that they have seen this before

in freedom you reveal the depths of something one may not know or may have forgotten

i write furious uncensored salt in the wound truth
for a moment in the process it is all i know or care about

if the truth i find fills 180 pages then so be it
see truth doesnt have a page count

the raw guts of my love i then shape
to hopefully delight in a reminiscent curious way
often times it shapes itself
the subconscious is a mighty warrior for truthtelling

there will be layers of course
for truth is simple and complex
everchanging yet always the same
a paradox

will i know every related string in the tapestry
sometimes yes and often no
yet if my cloth holds both air and water
laughter and tears
if my cloth endures both fire and earth
criticism and scholarly review
then it is good

in the simplest expression of goodness
it balances discipline and freedom
choice and duty
love and fear
me and you
Title: Scene construction
Post by: Alethia on July 24, 2003, 11:41:39 PM
just write and let it be........if it feels right, then it is.......
Title: Scene construction
Post by: atticus jones on July 25, 2003, 12:03:41 AM
surely every bottie is entitled to their opinion but...

why the phuck did you find it necessary to follow up my post with such non thought out tearful shit...

and fuh kin lay off the (word...word...) style hack jab

that dot dot dot is my candy trick...

snackin off it it will giff u cavities...

bigga than the wuns in yo head
Title: Scene construction
Post by: Alethia on July 25, 2003, 11:41:33 AM
eat...........me............
Title: Scene construction
Post by: fulty on July 25, 2003, 12:31:55 PM
Wow, this is such a great thread.
Can we go back to page 1?
me, that was a beautiful post.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: modage on July 25, 2003, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: fultyWow, this is such a great thread.
Can we go back to page 1?
me, that was a beautiful post.

i hardly bother visiting the pta thread anymore.  because theres just so much not worth reading here, whereas if any of the other damn directors get visited theres probably something worth reading there.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: markums2k on July 25, 2003, 03:44:48 PM
No, no, this is a great thread.

A lot of the stuff I write, there are deliberate little hints of analogy or theme... maybe some people will get it, maybe some won't.

I hardly ever take things deeper than the literal meaning though, when I am the viewer.  Personally, I get more enjoyment that way; enjoying the performances, the aesthetics, the sounds.  But if I ever direct a film, I want the symbolism to be there for people who want it.

I think, if a film ends up with some unintentional nods to it's overall theme, then that's good.  Wouldn't that be a demonstration of how focused it is, if it's reinforcing central ideas without even trying?  Sort of, accidentally on purpose.  :-D
Title: Scene construction
Post by: mom me on July 25, 2003, 09:07:39 PM
Hello,

I have procrastinated getting involved here but my personal relationship with the user named me requires that i say something.  To begin, I know who me is.  He will not like that to be public knowledge but it is true.  I have oftened wondered if anyone here knows the truth about this situation.  Comments such as those made by users like Eward not only hurt my feelings but make it apparent the subtle and not so subtle indications me has left in regards to his identity have gone unnoticed.  I do not wish to betray me, only to say I am here feeling a maternal instinct to protect him and appreciate his unique indivduality.  Sorry honey.  I will try to stay out of your way, I promise. But you are a child to mom me.

By the way, Fulty I think you are very kind.  I lived in the "other valley" for a while before my recent time here in Reno, NV.

Anyways, thanks to the kind people who run this message board.  It gives an old movie lover like me something to keep busy with when I am not gardening or playing keno.

Love,

Mom me

Title: Scene construction
Post by: aclockworkjj on July 25, 2003, 09:38:46 PM
blah...
Title: Scene construction
Post by: SoNowThen on July 25, 2003, 11:43:02 PM
Quote from: methere is form................................there is freedom

in form you remind others that they have seen this before

in freedom you reveal the depths of something one may not know or may have forgotten

i write furious uncensored salt in the wound truth
for a moment in the process it is all i know or care about

if the truth i find fills 180 pages then so be it
see truth doesnt have a page count

the raw guts of my love i then shape
to hopefully delight in a reminiscent curious way
often times it shapes itself
the subconscious is a mighty warrior for truthtelling

there will be layers of course
for truth is simple and complex
everchanging yet always the same
a paradox

will i know every related string in the tapestry
sometimes yes and often no
yet if my cloth holds both air and water
laughter and tears
if my cloth endures both fire and earth
criticism and scholarly review
then it is good

in the simplest expression of goodness
it balances discipline and freedom
choice and duty
love and fear
me and you

Beautiful beautiful beautiful fucking beautiful!!!!
I like my thread, but we should seriously close it, because it ain't getting any better than this. Me, I have no idea who you are, I catch hints super fucking badly over the inet, but I have my ideas.

Love and peace to all! I'm shooting next week. It will be inspired thank goodness. You get down and need to be lifted up. I'm lifted now.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: Vile5 on July 26, 2003, 03:10:25 PM
First at all this is a great thread!

Quote from: Newtron...It's simple structure, introduce and expand. In narrative form what occurs, according to the ambition of the writer, is less mechanically structured than driven by the instinct of the writer. This instinct is not so far removed from technical skill in thematic balancing that it needs to be separated from what you identify as mathematical precision. Basically, in this case, PTA must obviously have a great understanding of what's going in the story, and being faced with a three-hour epic to keep alive, he structured it in a way that would create a multitude of layers and relationship not only within each scene but between them. Like all good movies are supposed to do...

Exactly!! and something that i've learned is that if you don't know what you want to say with your script, you won't be able to know how to write it, maybe at first you can feel that you have a million of ideas and that your story will be great, but then you won't have idea about how to continue...so i think this is the key: know exactly what you want to say
Title: Scene construction
Post by: tpfkabi on July 26, 2003, 03:54:02 PM
well, i don't know about you, but i don't write in a chronological order. i imagine a lot of people write this way.
for instance: with the script i'm working on now......i've known the beginning for over  a year........later, i knew how i wanted to end it...........i also knew some scenes that had to go in the middle somewhere............now, the actual process of writing is filling in the gaps and making the beginning go to the end...........this is also the tricky part...........i did the first third of the screenplay in March? or so........began a new job and haven't touched it since...........from day to day, little connecting scenes come and i write them down
============================
actually, i''ll be totally honest......the part where i stopped was a little personal, so i haven't wanted to go back there.
here's the sitch.....i had a big crush on a gal for a while........i told her how i felt and she rejected me.........sometime before that, she told me about this first date she had with the other guy that she liked (but he didn't like her, ha!)...........it was so hilarious (the first date) that i think it really needs to be put on film and that's where i've stopped.........i kind of feel like i need to ask permission and also, i want to get it pretty accurate because i've forgotten pieces of it.............it's just a can of worms i don't want to open............i wonder if people can sue you for using parts of their life????????well, it seems WEs Anderson and Owen Wilson do this and actually use people's names......so i guess it's ok
===============================
oh, my original point..........when you write the film out of order, this allows you to put little things back in the earlier parts of the film..........example of something like that is the snow globe in Citizen Kane......so yes, i imagine a lot of times things are intentional...............another example.....all the birds in Psycho
Title: Scene construction
Post by: Alethia on July 27, 2003, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: mom meHello,

I have procrastinated getting involved here but my personal relationship with the user named me requires that i say something.  To begin, I know who me is.  He will not like that to be public knowledge but it is true.  I have oftened wondered if anyone here knows the truth about this situation.  Comments such as those made by users like Eward not only hurt my feelings but make it apparent the subtle and not so subtle indications me has left in regards to his identity have gone unnoticed.  I do not wish to betray me, only to say I am here feeling a maternal instinct to protect him and appreciate his unique indivduality.  Sorry honey.  I will try to stay out of your way, I promise. But you are a child to mom me.

By the way, Fulty I think you are very kind.  I lived in the "other valley" for a while before my recent time here in Reno, NV.

Anyways, thanks to the kind people who run this message board.  It gives an old movie lover like me something to keep busy with when I am not gardening or playing keno.

Love,

Mom me


sorry if what i said hurt feelings.  i was half kidding anyway and plus there was no reason for him to say that.  if he doesnt like my post that's his problem, but he doesnt have to be a dick about it.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: mutinyco on July 27, 2003, 11:54:56 AM
It depends on the filmmaker. I'm sure the Coens know exactly what they're doing. Elia Kazan used to go line by line of a script to plot out character motivations. I don't think PTA does that. I think he writes from his emotions. I don't think he intellectualizes his writing very much. It's too underdeveloped and messy. However, once he's on the set working with the actors that's when he deals with it -- let's the actors help shape the scene. His films are very free form, in terms of process.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: ©brad on July 27, 2003, 03:19:44 PM
Quote from: bigideasoh, my original point..........when you write the film out of order, this allows you to put little things back in the earlier parts of the film..........example of something like that is the snow globe in Citizen Kane......so yes, i imagine a lot of times things are intentional...............another example.....all the birds in Psycho

my writing teacher recently told me that very very few writers, good writers, if any, write in chronological order. its the biggest mistake u can make, so she says. "write the scenes u want to write first, the scenes u have in ur head. then write the scenes u have to write." i trust her.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: ono on July 27, 2003, 03:40:50 PM
Love the new quote, ©brad.  White Men Can't Jump.  :yabbse-thumbup:

And yeah, when I write, it's usually building ideas on top of ideas, and then filling in the "filler" that needs to be there, after that.  And hopefully when I'm done, there will be more ideas that are solid than filler.  Chronological isn't the way to go.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: Alethia on July 27, 2003, 03:49:19 PM
i follow this alot too
Title: Scene construction
Post by: The Silver Bullet on July 27, 2003, 11:11:53 PM
I cannot speak for Anderson [nor would I want to, he can speak for himself, dammit], but when I write, I write characters and plots and then usually the themes emerge on their owns, often maybe five pages in or something, but still. Then I know what I'm doing, and I go about fleshing out key ideas and things like that.

Call me crazy, but Magnolia feels different, as though it's a first draft, just written, and written, and written, just poured out onto the page in a very raw form, and then shot. It's all the better for it of course, and it'd be nice to write something like that [I'm trying, I'm trying...just, writing raw is hard].
Title: Scene construction
Post by: ono on July 27, 2003, 11:45:50 PM
Yeah, as I read the script to Magnolia, I tried to envision it all pouring out chronogically, but I can't see it happen.  I'm not saying it's not possible, but it seems sort of magical or coincidental that it would. And of course, that's one of the themes of Magnolia itself.  The thing is though in the "That Moment" diary, PTA says he hasn't written the WDKK? part yet.  So what does that mean for the script?  In the draft, did he say "cut to gameshow" or something and then fill in the blanks later?

I'd love to write a movie that was like a quick 80 pages of stream of consciousness, but I wouldn't really know if it's good.  200 pages of that kind of thing -- if indeed that's how it happened -- is even more commendable.
Title: Scene construction
Post by: AK on July 28, 2003, 01:33:22 AM
Quote from: The Silver BulletCall me crazy, but Magnolia feels different, as though it's a first draft, just written, and written, and written, just poured out onto the page in a very raw form....


i read somewhere PTA wrote this way ....like ,  he sat down and started ...mixing the characters as they were coming to his mind, like a (BIG) stream of conscious...and shoot....(at least with not much revisions)

Admire him for do it like this....i mean....most screenwriters fuck up with less...
Title: Scene construction
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on August 13, 2003, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: methere is form................................there is freedom

in form you remind others that they have seen this before

in freedom you reveal the depths of something one may not know or may have forgotten

i write furious uncensored salt in the wound truth
for a moment in the process it is all i know or care about

if the truth i find fills 180 pages then so be it
see truth doesnt have a page count

the raw guts of my love i then shape
to hopefully delight in a reminiscent curious way
often times it shapes itself
the subconscious is a mighty warrior for truthtelling

there will be layers of course
for truth is simple and complex
everchanging yet always the same
a paradox

will i know every related string in the tapestry
sometimes yes and often no
yet if my cloth holds both air and water
laughter and tears
if my cloth endures both fire and earth
criticism and scholarly review
then it is good

in the simplest expression of goodness
it balances discipline and freedom
choice and duty
love and fear
me and you


i bet he re read this post to himself 9 times and said to himself " i , am great"
Title: Scene construction
Post by: atticus jones on August 13, 2003, 12:27:54 PM
this is the worst backhanded compliment i have received since moms told me i was a "special" kid...

man...why you gotta give away my cbs page job daytime status?

i worked hard to get that shit...

im trying not to like you but u are so damn unfunny and redundant i think u are winning me over...

its hard being fifteen years old.... living in the valley...give me a break
Title: Scene construction
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on August 13, 2003, 12:39:37 PM
Quote from: methis is the worst backhanded compliment i have received since moms told me i was a "special" kid...

:: putts on dear mama by tupac  and  Harmonizes with atticus::
Title: Scene construction
Post by: atticus jones on August 13, 2003, 01:29:05 PM
pieces at last...
Title: Scene construction
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on August 13, 2003, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: mepieces at last...

so is we ok now ? no need to go biggie and tupac on one another
Title: Scene construction
Post by: atticus jones on August 13, 2003, 02:51:55 PM
cranks up "two less lonely people" by air supply and begins slowly massaging his alguienestolamipantalones until the thang grows to enormous proportions...

i figgered it out...its lyke meat sweeps at the valley ball cabaret...i meaning me being the tits and others meaning them wanting to phuck them towers of truth and justice...sumhow sumwhere a feeding frenzy ensued and i jus kept ducking and dodging the dicks till i finally tired out put my proverbial puss in the mix and let them have their seven seconds of pleasure...

still tho...

i a g as they say

eye a gee or its all good...no matter how u slice it...if the love glove dont fit...u must acquit
Title: Scene construction
Post by: AlguienEstolamiPantalones on August 13, 2003, 03:07:03 PM
i do love air supply quite a lot, i have a picture of the guy with the afro holding a wine glass in his hand at a swanky party, i treasure it amungst my finnest possesions

aight, we chill then

see ya on Palm Canyon Dr maybe
Title: Scene construction
Post by: atticus jones on September 25, 2003, 03:36:15 AM
Quote from: AlguienEstolamiPantalones
Quote from: methere is form................................there is freedom

in form you remind others that they have seen this before

in freedom you reveal the depths of something one may not know or may have forgotten

i write furious uncensored salt in the wound truth
for a moment in the process it is all i know or care about

if the truth i find fills 180 pages then so be it
see truth doesnt have a page count

the raw guts of my love i then shape
to hopefully delight in a reminiscent curious way
often times it shapes itself
the subconscious is a mighty warrior for truthtelling

there will be layers of course
for truth is simple and complex
everchanging yet always the same
a paradox

will i know every related string in the tapestry
sometimes yes and often no
yet if my cloth holds both air and water
laughter and tears
if my cloth endures both fire and earth
criticism and scholarly review
then it is good

in the simplest expression of goodness
it balances discipline and freedom
choice and duty
love and fear
me and you


i bet he re read this post to himself 9 times and said to himself " i , am great"

i bet he read this post to himself 9 times and said to himself "i will never be that great"

...jus drobbed fly to sey halo to sum old frunds and goot bi two sam old frauds...


little bee p as in pro...big p me as in thee us
self sacrificing god
prometheus
fashioned humans from the earth
gave them fire
and now theyll burn this mutha up
whilst he chained to a bump forever

its all greek to me...

sex act recapt

pants got pulled down
butt we still see dick

cock work fakes oh ver
the pussy gets whipped

me cums in late
and pumps fuck ramen
on yo plate

msg free dis course...still might bust that boiler tho

sick